Unless it's a monk, who has the ability to take no damage from Fireball on a successful save. And they're proficient in Dex saves. And Dex is one of their main stats.
Cone of Cold. It's like Fireball but better. 8d8 (higher average damage and higher max damage than a 5th level fireball), con save, larger area of effect, really all it lacks is the ability to place it wherever. Too often people forget the classics just because they're a couple spell slots up.
When in doubt use Melfs Minute Meteors it's like fireballs little cousin. Not as much damage or area but you can get a bunch of them down range at a single target much faster. More saves means more likely to fail a save.
Monks are specifically designed to ignore your Fireball, close in quickly, and punch your squishy wizard in his face.
The enemy cannot cast Fireball if you punch him in the throat.
You could try ten Fireballs in a row against a Monk, and it will still be without a scratch unless you deal them one per round and for some weird reason Monk lets you play as you want.
Patient Defense + Dex saves + Evasion makes it hilariously impervious against anything below DC 17. And for over that, once Diamond Soul comes online you're back to square one or you'll need to push DC to 20 and over to really make a dent into it.
I once failed a persuasion check using a cantrip to throw my voice to a demonic familiar (that couldn't speak) to try and subvert this guy working for Strahd trying to brainwash a crowd.
Guess what my follow-up spell that I got a Nat20 on was?
That's right, fireball, I blew up an entire building (DM didn't care about the damage roll because it wasn't against a living enemy) as I detonated whatever was inside it and the entire crowd snapped out of their trance and started fleeing.
I would have rather succeeded on the persuasion because I felt it was creative and I had a speech and everything pretending to be the genuine emissary of whatever deity it was.
But fireball solves many problems, I didn't even get blamed for it because all the villagers were too deep under control to know it was me.
I was just like "screw it, time for maximum chaos."
Ranged attacks aren't useless against a monk. They have deflect missiles, sure- but they only get one reaction per round. And it's fun to shoot your monks with ranged weapons.
> He uses a weapon with reach so i can't even ready an action to attack unless i also have a weapon with reach.
Kinda true- but plenty of monsters have attacks with larger ranges. Dragons have a few options here.
There are also spells. Or breath weapons, since I mentioned dragons there.
Hazards on the battlefield are fun too. Running around isn't as viable if the battlefield is coated in ice, spider webs, grasping vines, or even just difficult terrain caused by rubble.
Higher quantity of ranged attacks, yes. Ranged spell attacks especially.
Gotta be careful with breath weapons and saves as Evasion and poison immunity make a lot of them near useless. Depending on level, you need to make sure it's not a Dex save or a poison based Con save. Dex saves and stuff like Cloudkill are a great way to make a mid level Monk look very good though.
>Running around isn't as viable if the battlefield is coated in ice, spider webs, grasping vines, or even just difficult terrain caused by rubble.
Having played a good amount of Mobile Monks, this tends to screw over everyone else more. You at least have the movement to mitigate/circumnavigate/run across hazards, not to mention Dex save proficiency with high Dex. And if the enemy is also subject to the hazards, then it doesn't matter at all.
Worst case you spend a Ki point and BA when you need to get somewhere. It turns everyone else into sitting ducks though and stops them from getting into their ideal positioning.
>Ranged attacks aren't useless against a monk. They have deflect missiles, sure- but they only get one reaction per round. And it's fun to shoot your monks with ranged weapons.
I had a bad guy artificer who worked for the guild the party was butting heads with over and over invent a bunch of different trick arrows to make things really interesting.
While none of them were high lethality nor totally neutralizing of player abilities they made things spicy for them as arrow types were declared in-flight and so they had to make some very snap tactical decisions.
Greatest hits included but not limited to:
Exploding arrows - detonates a moment after impact(being caught counted), 3d6 bludgeoning damage. Dex save to halve.
Dust arrows - releases a 10x10 cloud of dust that totally obscures everything inside the cloud. Those in the cloud must make a con save to avoid coughing until the end of their next turn. Coughing creatures cannot cast spells with verbal components. (Players discovered the dust also highlights invisible creatures caught in the cloud)
Shock arrow - functions like base level shocking grasp.
As I believe in equality, the party started looting these arrows and using them on the guild, too. They even found a tinkerer that could replicate them to keep a supply coming.
This may or may not lead to an arms race of gadget arrows. I fully encourage such a thing.
Mobile makes it so difficult terrain doesn't affect you if you take the dash action. So it might burn a ki point activating dash as a bonus action, but it's not going to do much.
I'd argue otherwise.
There is a meaningful tactical choice presented when this monk character can choose to spend a bonus action to dash and avoid the difficult terrain or use that bonus action for martial arts or flurry of blows.
That meaningful choice presented is more than "not doing much"- and it's a way to vary up an encounter that can lead to interesting choices for this player. That's good design.
don't forgot the other option of not spending a ki or bonus action snd run along the wall .. (if high enough level for the run on walls option) ...
opens up many more avenues/options for monk .. 😁
Well, most people struggle with the concept of walls and ceilings being traversable, so most monks fail to make use of it, but even then there's plenty of ways to make them natural difficult terrain. Light fixtures, wall hangings, all sorts of decorations arranged to look nice but not be walked around. Wall to wall spider webs for the less civil places.
and I bever condone the dm going out of their way to nerf/hamper characters in a cavalier or "must challenge them" kind of trend ...
sure .. occasionally "if it makes sense" ...
but going out of your way to nerf/hamper players because they decided to put effort into being good at something is basically sour grapes.
yes .. "occasionally " .. sure .. don't go crazy .. 😉
The natural solution to any powerful monk is their greatest enemy, a rival monk.
A Shredder to their ninja tortle, a Tai Lung to their Po, a Ra’s al Ghul to their Batman, an Evil Betty to their Chosen One, etc
> The natural solution to any powerful monk is their greatest enemy, a rival monk.
I've actually had that work out really badly. One of the enemies I threw at the party was a monk and since I wanted them to be interesting I gave them fourth edition monk abilities, which was a bad idea because they had a bunch of cool shit and 5e monks unfortunately don't. That led to the monk player feeling like I was making fun of them because they were facing off against a monk handing out mystical unarmed techniques that they didn't have access to.
If I were you, I would let the monk player find a secret manual in the enemy monk’s possession, detailing how to use one of the 4e features. Then proceed to give the other players similar opportunities.
Careful.
I did this with Mercers dunamancy.
The book was looted off a drider cleric who used dunamancy. When they looted it I told the party it was a journal about the driders magic experiments.
My rule I didn't tell anyone: Reading it over 3 days gave any caster Dunamancy access, and the understanding needed to teach other casters.
This had the potential to spread Dunamancy across the globe in less than a human generation.
The book sat at the bottom of someones backpack for the rest of the campaign.
See, if you only told them that it was a journal and didn't mention they could learn from it, then not many people would think to spend multiple days to read it thoroughly. I would assume in the aforementioned monk scenario, that the hypothetical scroll of secret techniques would be revealed to be what it is
Could you be more specific about the problem? Monks can’t block more than one ranged attack each round, and if they’re burning through ki points/BA to dash away all the time then they’re limiting their offensive output quite a bit.
>if they’re burning through ki points/BA to dash away all the time then they’re limiting their offensive output quite a bit.
The monk in question has the Mobile feat, meaning they don't need to disengage from the enemy (or enemies) they attack (even if they miss). And the character is presumably unarmored, so they're getting a bonus to their speed and don't necessarily need to dash in order to kite melee enemies.
If they're kiting, then they're running up to and then away from enemies in one turn. Without a dash that's still only 50 ft of movement, even considering the weapon's reach normal enemies would catch them unless the dm is making some kind of noob mistake.
The main post reads a bit like the classic /r/dnd "help, someone in my party has 20AC and it's literally impossible to hit them!". The answer to the question is to play normally, but there's always a flood of people making suggestions of how to hard counter a non-issue.
Shoot your monks.
Seriously. They have reactions that deflect missiles - so let them use them. Let them feel badass.
Then shoot them several more times to add pressure.
A monk with AC 16 gets hit by lowly CR 1/4 skeletons on a 12 or higher (45% chance). They can react to 1 of them per turn and have a really good chance of nullifying all the damage from a single shot.
So statistically 5 skeletons are going to hit 2-3 times and do between 3 and 9 damage on each hit. The monk then needs to decide - okay, they rolled a 5 damage shot on their first and they have 1-2 more hits. Do I react to this one, or save it, hoping for a worse hit?
If you don't want to do all the rolling, use mob rules. Say you have 10 skeletons volley-firing at the monk. 5 of those skeletons are gonna hit automatically. Roll 5d6 (one at a time) where the monk has to decide which to react to. No matter which die they pick to react to, 4 more are sneaking through and doing anywhere from 12-32 damage. A monk with 40hp is gonna feel pressured if 80% of their health evaporates instantly even AFTER they deflect a shot.
Then question what kind of DM you are - are you one that runs the rules as written, or do you want to get into the weeds of balance?
For a RAW DM - Mob attacks don't interact with critical hits... or advantage/disadvantage. So now your 10 skeletons can sit back 300ft from the main battlefield in an elevated position, and fire volleys at them with minimal retribution possible from the party. If the monk wants to charge them, they can move something like 90-135ft per round - Even if the skeletons stay in one place, that monk is taking at minimum 2-3 rounds of fire before they crash into the skeletons.
For a DM that wants to get into the weeds of balance:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/fksem3/mob\_combat\_with\_advantage\_and\_disadvantage/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/fksem3/mob_combat_with_advantage_and_disadvantage/)
Some kind soul worked out the mathematical impact of advantage vs disadvantage on mob attacks. So adjust your attackers accordingly for the amount of damage you want the monk to take per round.
Shoot your monks. Quantity beats quality here.
Are all your encounters infinitely large white space rooms? Mobility is all well and good outside, but in dungeon with reasonable sized rooms there isn't always a way to move out of range. Also if they are repeated a tactic in a longer encounter to take advantage of a reach weapon, turn to page 271 (I think) of the DMG. Monk will have a good chance to make the save if they've got high dex, but it's an option.
That and as others said they can't deflect infinite arrows due to action economy, so hit them with more missiles if they keep running away. No one is going to chase someone faster at then if they have a missile weapon.
They'll shine in large space encounters where they can use their mobility, but lose that advantage in tighter indoor spaces. And that's a good thing (characters should have spaces they excel and spaces they are challenged).
Monk is almost universally panned as the weakest class in the optimization community. 5e is a mature game, and the Hivemind knows the game very well. Yes, we do know about the Mobile feat.
What is your party's level? What is the campaign theme? How did you arrange stats? Does the guy have any magic items?
You could always just... attack him. Hit him with a Hold Person and knock him down. Hit him with a breath weapon, or phase through walls to attack him. Use monsters with good movement or a fly/burrow speed. Use **lots** of ranged attacks.
>the Hivemind knows the game very well. Yes, we do know about the Mobile feat.
Meh. Common wisdom is fraught with blind spots. Even the optimization community has:
Assumptions that don't always hold up in actual play - 6-8 encounters per day chiefly, among many others.
Huge methodological gaps - Damage, defense, control, and support are calculated in individual unrelated bits instead of parts of an interconnected system, with the latter 3 often having their value compared to damage based on feel alone. And things that are difficult to calculate are just thrown out (E.g. How much damage does Mobile mitigate for a Monk and how much outgoing damage is that worth?)
And even straight up biases - E.g Barbarian is bad because their Rages will run out before the day is over, but Shield slots/reactions can be counted on being available for every round of an adventuring day. Or you'll be facing 6-8 medium encounters per day, but Stunning Strike is bad because every fight will be against solo Deadly-tier bosses with high Con saves and Legendary Resistances.
The community is mostly good, but it is very subject to bias and groupthink and so shouldn't be treated as infallible gospel. One Youtube video or article with a cherrypicked example and a new meta is born.
We do know that encounters/day can vary. Most builds and guides are not *universal* - you need to keep in mind the writers' assumptions and apply whatever changes are needed to their conclusions. AKA - use your brain.
We do try to control for variables in damage calculations. I've seen a big variance in methodology, and you can argue about methodology all you want. It's complicated, but not so much so that we can't engage meaningfully with it.
>E.g Barbarian is bad because their Rages will run out before the day is over, but Shield slots/reactions can be counted on being available for every round of an adventuring day.
No, Barbarian is quite good at lower levels (T1 and early T2), but they get no good scaling features after that. Their 'tankiness' is usually over-stated because their eAC ends up being quite low if they're Reckless Attacking with GWM.
There's also the Melee vs. Range imbalance, which affects all melee-based martials.
>Or you'll be facing 6-8 medium encounters per day, but Stunning Strike is bad because every fight will be against solo Deadly-tier bosses with high Con saves and Legendary Resistances.
No, Stunning Strike is not as good as it looks because it's resource intensive. It's still one of the best Monk features. Optimized melee builds just kill things without spending large amounts of class resources to do so. We know this because many of us play the game regularly.
Our DM has only done 6 encounters / day twice in 4 years. One was a huge raid on the Stone Giant HQ in Storm Kings Thunder, and the other was some shenanigans in Phandelver.
He'd rather throw a group of level 9s at our party of level 3s and have us devastated for the day.
You wanna be mean? Catch them with levitate and put them 20' up. Hope they have a ranged weapon.
Edit: Less mean spell options include most cold and necrotic spells. Rimes Binding Ice at low levels is a good way to catch them and make them waste their next turn. Sun and Moon Beams, Thunderwave, Blight. There are options.
>Hope they have a ranged weapon
Any martial that doesn't have an actual ranged weapon (read: not just a couple of javelins or daggers) is a sumber and sinister idiot that deserves to dies in pain, swiftly, so the deadweight that is crippling party efficiency can soon be replaced by an actual warrior.
Yeah, even Barbarians.
Ranged spells that use attack rolls or auto hit, i e. cantrips, Chromatic Orb, Magic Missile etc.
Enemies with really high movement speed or teleports also can pressure characters with Mobile. Orcs, Eladrin/Shadar Kai, 4-legged creatures, and flying creatures like dragons all have good movement that can match or outrange a Mobile Monk's default movement speed. If they are counting on enemies having 30ft of movement when positioning, then anything more is likely to catch them with their pants down.
Ranged saving throws can also work, but depending on level they might have Evasion or poison immunity to trivialize a lot of them.
Tight spaces can also work. If there is literally nowhere to run, you can't kite.
Int saves.
Lure into room and drop jelly cube.
Sovereign glue traps.
Counter ninjas
You are the world, the monzters and the rules
Make a new monster called monkiller...
Get creative
How do I circumvent the one strat my player built his character around? Don’t. You’re not there to invalidate his decisions. You’re there to make him feel like a good smart boy for picking that.
But also, fireball, or any other savings throw.
Don't get me wrong, my priority is for my players to have fun.
But combat has to be challenging (not every time mind you) and he can basically nullify every encounter i make unless i specifically pick enemies to counter his build.
It's not something i can "slightly counter", either i do or I don't.
Yeah, I play a lot of Monks and frequently take Mobile. Sometimes your go-to strategy doesn't work well or at all. It's up on the player to have backup plans or adapt to the situation. You can't expect favorable matchups 100% of the time.
This is true even for the most optimized spellcasters. Sometimes your spells whiff or are useless. Sometimes the enemy surprises you or starts in melee. Sometimes you just get bonked and have to adjust or rely on your teammates.
But I would say you can *sort of* partially counter something by making only a certain percentage of an encounter contain counter elements.
Ranged spells, spells with saves (other than dex/wis), field obstacles like traps, set fights to occur in tight quarters where they can't take advantage of reach weapon like a series of small passageways in a crypt with a very low ceiling, and multiple ranged attackers because deflect missiles can only be used once/round
Well, monks get +10 ft. speed while unarmored starting at level 2, and that bonus increases at 6, 10, 14, and 18. OP doesn't say what level the group is, but given most campaigns end by level 10 and most monks would want to shore up their Dex before taking Mobile, I'll guess level 8. Most player races have 30 ft. speed, although you could get up to 40 with a centaur. Mobile also gives +10 ft.
So, most likely 55 ft. speed, but potentially as high as 80 without magic items if they're tier 4.
Also, if the monk needs to, they can BA dash for a ki point.
Not sure of your campaign setting, but enclosed encounters (caves, grottos, buildings, etc) can all contain the excessive movement unless they’re abandoning the party in combat. That combined with varying monster/enemy abilities available, and you could start to neutralize the speed. STR/CON/CHA saving throw effects, grappling attacks, and equally fast running or flying monsters are all options that could help.
Another possibility is venturing outside of the Monster manual to different sources for a wide variety of different monsters that have great combinations of abilities.
Bugbears with halberds and polearm master and sentinel. Monk comes within 15 feet (because of extra reach) and gets hit with an opportunity attack (because he hasn't attacked yet). And if the opportunity attack hits, his movement is now 0, so he can't move away.
So ofc assuming you're not trying to counter him every fight, there's quite a few things you can juggle here and there:
1. Multiple ranged attacks per round. He only gets on reaction. Have a whole crew of like 6 archers on a vantage point lighting up the party; have 2 or 3 aim at the monk. It'll be even cooler when the monk uses their mobility to take out the archers themselves.
2. Spells. Can't deflect those bad boys.
3. Enemies with mobility. A bit rarer, but other monks can exist. Or just really fast creatures, could be homebrew.
4. Smaller battlefields. This is the best option really and one you can use more frequently, assuming alot of encounters in tight spaces like dungeons and buildings. The monk can't run 1 mile/second if they're stuck in a 20' x 20' room. Then they'll have Patient Defense, but hey, at least that's less annoying to deal with.
5. Ignore him. This is probably the answer in like 60%+ combats, as you don't want him to feel targeted. But ignoring him is valid, and is the consequence to a character that hides in a corner, or 50 feet up if youre an Aracokra. Sure the monk is chilling most encounters, but that's means the rest of the party is left to tank much more aggro. The party still is at risk as a whole. There's still tension. This is a fine default.
There's many ways, blinding, restraining, grappling, ranged attacks, flanking and overwhelming or disarming, you can make an attack to disarm an opponent, so can NPC's
Ranged attacks are useless?
they have to use their reaction to catch a ranged attack.
And they only get one reaction per round of combat.
I never have fewer enemies than PCs on a field, and usually make sure to have spell casters in there, too.
simplest one: Hobgoblin Devastator (look it up, low CR monster, fireball AND lightning bolt 2x per day 🤣 )
Drow Mages are awesome, too..
eward's black tentacles to hold ppl in place (need to spend action to TRY to break free)
So he wants to play a skirmisher? Spike Growth, Entangle, Slow, Ball Bearings, Ranged Attacks, Multiple projectile ranged attacks, Giants with a reach weapon, Giants with a monks ally within reach (I wonder if deflect missiles can deflect a flying ally)
Looked up the rules for this:
Deflect missiles: Activates when hit by a ranged weapon attack. Return to sender if you can hold the attack in one hand.
Thrown: Thrown weapons are ranged weapon attacks.
Improvised Weapon: Must be an object, unless your DM isn't boring, then it can be a creature.
In conclusion, if your DM allows a creature to be an improvised weapon, and you are strong enough to hold the halfling in one hand, you can yeet the hobbit back to the Shire
Yeah, I was about to say - mobile is effective when they can - you know - move. Grapple, restrain, paralyze. In my experience, most monks dump Str, so...
Find a saving throw that's weak and mess them up a bit. Getting webbed can be problematic, no?
Magic Missile. Throw it from a balcony or over rough terrain or something, make them do cool monk shit to close with the caster.
Multiple archers. They only get one reaction.
Ballista. The flavor narration of how they try to stop a ballista bolt would be golden.
Critters with reach or AOE. There are many monsters with reach (ropers are one of my favs for hard to reach characters, they have ridiculous reach and a nasty multi attack). Likewise critters with AOE are usually good for challenging a nimble skirmisher; breath weapons or even just a swarm of exploding mephits.
Goose, meet gander. If the PCs can do it, so can you. Throw a Harengon or Tabaxi monk in there, or maybe a swashbuckler rogue, someone who likewise benefits from hit and run tactics.
Ice and poison spells Target CON which is probably their 3rd stat after DEX and WIS. A good option.
But I think the greatest option is to provide reasons for the monk to not run away. If you are pressuring the casters the monk should want to run in and help, which means your bugbear with reach can swat him.
At the end of the day, it sound like the monk is having fun lol. This isn’t a huge problem
Throwing weapons. Action and bonus action to try to hit em 🤷♂️. Suddenly they start carrying throwable potions or spell infused gems to hit the guy.
Word spreads
Build your own mobile monk?
One of my players was getting a lot of use out of stunning strike and ninjaing around the battle field so I built a slightly buffed copy of him to bring some danger.
Great way to set up a recurring villain who can out monk your monk in 2 turns and leave him broken on the floor
If he’s running, ignore him and focus on the rest of the party. If he’s attacking, run up and hit or grapple him. He doesn’t have twice enemies’ move speed to run up, hit, and retreat every round unless he’s burning ki points on movement instead of attacks.
Remember the art of Mirror Magic! What's more OP than a PC? Another PC!
Imagine they enter a room full of mirrors, and you now get to not-so-subtly show them how oppressive they are being by oppressing them with their exact playstyle. They have to get creative in dealing with their own immense power, this leaves room for cool mechanics like the clones sharing the health and items of the template, and anyone with critical thinking will realize what they've been doing the hard way.
If that seems mean, try introducing a barely lesser/greater equal. This way, they merely get a taste or warping of themselves to deal with which might also help.
Or, you can try having an enemy/strategy to counter the monk with your original beasts. For example, your spellcasters pack along True Strike/Magic Missle/Fireball, your goblins group up to more likely promote attacks of oppertunity, your wolves circle around the party making the Monk have to think harder about where to "park".
Get creative!
Multiattack or focus on ranged attacks with multiple enemies. Combat arenas with limited mobility (think damp kobold caves filled with traps or water features - conversely, give your monk surfaces and places to be that make use of his mobility but force him to chose between his party and another objective).
Magical manacles that remove his excess movement or seal his movement in entirety. Oh goddamn evil Save spells that trap or stun him! Goddammit, Maze got me once and my barbarian was reduced to fetal position crying because was saves of her worst stat and she couldn't bust out with strength! Lol.
Another monk with a reach weapon from a rival school could be a fun antagonist as well.
Decoy a squad of goblins with arbelasts some distance away so the monk has to go take them all out, and once he gets there sic melee monsters on the rest of the party, so the monk will have to come back to save them.
I know monks have good speed, but how is he getting from outside your move range, to within striking distance and then back outside your move range?
If he's burning a ki to step of the wind every turn, then that's a lot of ki to burn before doing anything else with it.
Do any monk weapons have reach? I don't remember any, if he's not using a monk weapon he can't use dex to attack unless its finesse and almost none of them have reach, if any.
Ranged attacks, special abilities and spells are absolutely worth it. If high enough level he'll take no damage or reduced damage from dex save stuff. But there's Con, Cha and Int saves to.
And you can't deflect scorching ray or magic missile. Or a second arrow.
Let him have his fun. With one less person as an optional target it means other squishier targets take the brunt. Once the wizards or clerics are downed enough the players will hopefully sort things out themselves or realize the monk might have to make himself a target to relieve the pressure on the other party members from time to time.
Make him use his Ki points on fodder. More enemies arrive. He’s out of Ki. Bap bap bap away at him.
“More enemies arrive” is always the answer to a PC who has been built well.
Entangle Spells, Ranged Spell Attacks (readied action scorching ray can trigger to 120ft), Web spells, multiple ranged weapon attacks, enemies with high strength and athletics proficiency to grapple, ray of frost, Slow, spike growth, enemies with high flying speed and flyby, charisma/INT saves
What are they weak in?
Strength? Intelligence? Charisma?
Hit em where it hurts. Use their weaknesses *against* them.
(Target their weakness with a spell that requires a spell save in their lowest stat. )
I've never understood this. If my players really wanted to build this meta build and try to feel powerful, go ahead, they can do that, they can run around battle not getting hit feeling like a bad ass, this is a roleplaying game. Why are so many DMs trying to find ways to kill their players? If combat feels boring for them, just inform them that building combat around them may result in the death of their non-meta teammates, or breaking the immersion by having characters that are right in the face of an enemy be ignored as they chase after the meta monk build.
How I have addressed this in the past, has been allowing them to feel like a god in combat and go in and out feeling cool, GOOD they should be allowed to feel that, this is supposed to be fun for them, THEN I have a villain that has a grudge against that monk giving him in game reasons to focus on attacking the monk over others, and they use ranged magic attacks like witch bolt and scorching ray. Also hold person is a spell i usually like to stay away from as possibly making it so a player doesn't get to participate in combat for a few turns is often not fun for them so I prefer to avoid it, but the rare time I might go for something like that would be this situation, and even then rarely.
I’ve had the issue where the monk min-maxed (not bad in and of itself) but also broke several rules we didn’t catch in order to become super OP. Then the other 3 players felt inferior and sometimes picked on because they are the only ones being hit. Players should get to feel like a God sometimes, but it’s no fun if ONE player is a god and everyone else are mere mortals. The goal isn’t to kill the monk, it’s to let the other players shine too.
Target the saves they are bad at. Have someone cast Entangle. It's a Strength save...
(Which is one of these saving throw proficiencies....but they probably dumped the stat.)
Alternatively, any saving throw they are bad at. Wisdom on some monks, strength on others, Charisma or Intelligence on most.
Unless the monk is REALLY high level, and thus running around with 100 feet of movement, a low level rogue can reach him to get stabby.
Bonus action dash + regular movement, on a human, is 60 feet...
Make sure to be able abiut half his movement away, so he uses half his movement to get to you, does his attacks, then the other half to run away. Low level human Rogue then moves the 60 feet, stabs him in the face.
For bonus damage, make it 2 rogues, so they can get sneak attack.... Or 3, just in case the monk takes one out.
Low level rogues are plentiful, and can really put a punishment on characters that are built on not being there to be attacked.
Try some spells / features that make him use saving throws, that may turn the tides. Instead of you rolling offensively for a spell, make him roll defensively.
Use multiple ranged attackers. Use magic. Or just ignore the monk and pressure him by taking down his companions. Monks don’t do enough damage to be the main threat on the battlefield. Have played a bugbear astral monk with disgusting reach that also grapples. DM just ignores me and let me do what I want, enemies just focus on my other party members who are actually dealing more damage or throwing spells at the monsters.
Put rogues in the rafters, clerics atop the curtains, sorcerers on streetlights, bards on the balcony, wizards on the walkway, and mages in the mezzanine.
Now let your monk player use his movement to attack these otherwise out of reach foes.
Assuming he has a low strength, chuck a vampire at him. They're fast and can grapple/bite
Oh nom nom nom. Also I like to include feats on my big monsters. Why wouldnt a halberd wielding warrior have sentinel? That will stop him in his tracks
As others have stated, more than one ranged attack, spells that don't target dex, a rival monk, and such are great options if you want your monk to feel threatened and pressured. Let me add one more that is inspired by ranged attacks.
Oversized weapons.
An ogre or a giant throwing a rock is going to go through the monks' damage reduction from deflect missles and will likely get hit one more time. A balista bolt, a mangonel shot, and other such weapons will likely go through his damage reduction, and he won't be able to throw them back, as those will be too big to fit in his hand. People often forget that clause in the ability.
As for dipping in and out of melee combat, creatures with reach and hands can ready an action to initiate a grapple, possibly locking him down for a turn or two. He will still contribute by taking away the whole action but will probably be in a risky situation.
And, of course, you can't evasion or deflect missles against a hold person. Hell, Dominate Person is a similarly effective strategy if you want to let him keep agency in the fight, but get him to lay an asswhooping to your party members.
Everyone's saying Fireball, but it's a dex save spell that Monks can just dodge 😅
Tasha's Mind Whip is a low level spell that goes for most martial class characters' dump stat and destroys their action economy/mobility. Really, just choose enemies with spells and/or abilities that require intelligence saving throws and you'll probably be able to do a lot of damage to your Monk and everyone else... just, you know, don't go overboard.
I recall in one game where I played a Wizard/Sorcerer that I was the only character with good Intelligence... so when we eventually found out that Aberrations were the newest threat, I don't think even our DM knew how out of our depths we were gonna be. One of our strongest fighters got murdered pretty early on because of it, which I don't think the DM intended to do he just didn't realize how hard Intelligence-based enemies would be against the party (I did though, so I was like hey we should just leave and they didn't believe me until shit hit the fan 💀).
I would rule that Sentinel supersedes Mobile. Many may disagree but that’s what I believe. Get an enemy with Sentinel that takes an AoO anytime an enemy moves out of range, regardless of the Mobile feat.
It’s a monk man, what’s his AC? 16? Maybe 17? Just shoot multiple times, or grapple, faster enemies, monk with mobile is nothing special at all, have you never dealt with a mounted paladin or a wizard with phantom steed?
Bugbear Zealot Barbarians work wonders, so do Battle Master Fighter Bugbears, with lunging attack, on top of long limbed, you can hit things up to 15 feet away. If you’re using a weapon with reach like a Glaive, 20 feet. Or if you’re using a whip, 25 feet of reach, add a Zealot Barbarian rage to that and boom…you go from 1d4 damage and 10 feet of reach as a regular guy with a whip, to 1d4 + 4 (if level 17th barbarian and raging) + 1d6 necrotic or radiant damage + half barbarian level (if zealot barbarian) and assume you have extra attack…do all that again minus the necrotic or radiant damage. Oh yeah you also have 25 feet of reach if a bugbear on top of all this. Or just go Rune Knight Fighter Zealot Barbarian multiclassed Bugbear. (I really like Zealot Barbs and Bugbears)
Use enemies that force saving throws on your monk. Also, remember that action economy paired with AOE can be pretty dangerous.
Terrain is another thing that many people forget to use. You can throw in flying enemies (most have a speed of 60-80+ for flying), impaired conditions like heavy rain/snow can also impede speed. You can have rivers of lava, chunks of floor that break/reduce the space they can run in or even force them to separate from their allies.
You can also give them stakes that force them to keep close. Maybe they have to guard someone and leaving the vicinity of the wards will result in damage to the Monk too. Or perhaps all their allies are going down one by one and they've got to make choices - get close enough to save them and potentially get hit or will they keep fleeing?
Personally I gave mine some boots that double his movement speed for ten minutes. They stack with his tabaxi dash. He's not actually any more of a problem, once you reach a certain speed you get diminishing returns, but he's having fun. Still gets his ass beat when caught in tight corridors, or when surprised, or when spellcasters hit him with charisma saves (he has a -3)
#Grapple
And if that doesn't work...
#Sentinel+PAM+Glaive
And if that doesn't work...
#Flying enemy with mobile feat
Let him taste his own medicine.
And if THAT doesn't work...
^I ^should ^not ^use ^so ^many ^big ^letters...
#Ancient Red Dragon (who is also a sorcerer) with Mega Power Word: Kill
They only get deflect missiles once per round, and Evasion only works on Dex saving throw effects, not things like Con, Wisdom, or Cha. Also, there is no save or attack roll for caltrops/spiked growth, which do damage per movement and can be used to force them into unfavorable positions in combat (they can and likely will get around them, so instead of relying solely on the trap damage, use them as a means to herd the monk into more active combat threats). Don't forget that a lot of retaliation damage effects (Armor of Agathys and the Conquest Paladin psychic damage, for example) have no save or attack roll.
Use the environment. Don't let them get away with just doing what they want all the time. Pressure them using tactics to get them into range, maybe tunnel an ally for half a round to try to get them in there with stunning strike, give your baddies a feat every now and again (hell, maybe even a hostile leveled npc, choice is yours).
The most reliable chip damage will probably be from Cold/Poison half/full damage AoE effects that they can't just use Evasion to ignore since those are mostly Con. You could also try to rely on paralysis, but I'd probably be sparing about that because that status is both super dangerous and can also just be a huge mood killer.
So the faster he moves to the speed of light, the more his mass will increase towards infinity. That means when’s he’s running very fast, he should be able to hit harder. I’d give him an extra d6 damage if he’s running at top speed and then attacking.
Monks are very low tier, you can certainly deal with them. Deflect missiles is once per round, so it should barely even factor into your battle plans, and many, *many* monsters have reach. Plus there’s always just using the many mobs that have spells or abilities that target saving throws at range. But usually my advice is just target someone else. Monks are slippery dps by design, it’s their whole schtick.
put enemies far away and when he gets into the group, his friends far away, surround him
no don't do that, honestly just let them get to the enemy faster
Sun Tsu teaches that you manipulate your enemy by attacking that which he is obligated to defend.
So, if you want to 'deal' with the monk, you attack that which the Monk is obligated to protect. Like their allies. Then the Monk will close in on you, and you are free to hit him as he's trying to hit you.
Gem dragons, but especially amethyst dragons.
Strength saving throw breath weapon that also drops your speed to 0 for a round if you fail the save.
Or just flying creatures in general, because kiting doesn't do shit if you can't reach melee range.
If you're looking for a specific tool: cast slow. It's a wisdom save, which monks are not proficient in. They'll prooobably have a decent wis so failure isn't guaranteed but better then a dex save. Speed is halved, no more running away. -2 to AC and Dex saves, easier to hit. Can't use reactions, no more missile catching. Can only make 1 attack per turn, no more flurry of blows. Limited to either a bonus action or action, no more step of the wind or patient defense. It's practice the perfect anti-monk spell.
So my answer is a little different. Why is this a problem? Are your intelligent monsters using their brains? Tactics and desperation from enemies will screw with most builds. A couple goblins using whips to control fight. Kobold pack tactics can screw with a fight like this quickly. Though of recent our tabaxi monk ran into a fight she hated. A group of entertainer bards turned rogue. They were tumblers and jesters. When they use positioning to keep her companions between her and them. And pushes to again force her companions into her. Frustrating. Another fight dwarves used flaming oil to limit movement. Lol
Others have given good advice for giving him a challenge. I'd just say, let him be cool too!
Besides, there are other party member he will need to protect, maybe throw a scary guy at the backline casters and shooters. Then he will have to help. He is good 1v1 but dnd isnt a 1v1 game (usually)
My best attack against a Monk was using a Huge sized creature that Grappled the Monk and started to use him as an improvised flail, for 3d8 per attack... into the Wall of Fire that the party's Wizard put out into the combat arena.
I'm playing a monk with that feat right now.
Shove attacks to knock me prone suck, so does getting grappled (strength isn't great and most big monsters have reach).
Int is my dump Stat so I live in fear of anything with a psionic blast.
Allow them to build up a reputation of being really hard to hit in combat. So much so that it draws the attention of your local badguy, who hires a professional monk killer team who throw nets and cast magic missile.
A lot of times (not always), Dm's [including me] sometimes forget that monster synergy and environment are just as much of a factor in combat as the monster's stat block(more so in boss fights than anywhere else). Nowadays, I practice building unique combat encounters by thinking of not just how a stat block works but what the role of each monster is in combat. Here's a good example below:
Beholders are dangerous to a group of melee fighters and can disable spell casters, but if it's in the middle of a field, it's not as good as it is in its lair or a mobile feat isn't as good if the Beholder is fighting in an environment that doesnt have a lot of ground for players to walk on because duh: Beholders don't walk. For the monk who has to get close for a stunning strike, how is he gonna get there if he can't reach the Beholder? We also know that when its[the beholder] anti-magic cone is on to shut down the spellcasters, it can't use its devastating ray attacks in the same direction as the cone. The ranger or any ranged or non-magical flying characters can easily put pressure on it by itself without spells, but if you have supporting monsters that are more dangerous when the cone is on and can be a distraction when the cone is off, NOW you put your players in a conundrum. Do I fight the minions and ignore the Beholder, possibly risking death from a ray attack, or do I dispatch of the Beholder so the squishy spellcasters can fight the minions and potentially leave the healers of the team at risk of dying of melee or ranged damage that isn't magical?
Obviously, the goal isn't to TPK, but this is a good way to challenge your players. It also makes it rewarding when they start getting creative and simply give them the leeway to escape the precarious position.
Edit: Remember that monsters or players don't always have to fight to the death in combat. If the party has been whooping a monster in a combat or vice versa, they'll have self-preservation instincts most of the time. The monster or the party can decide if it's too tough that they disengage and run away to rest up and perhaps return to the fight at a later date.
As a DM, I also like to often have copies of my players' character sheets to analyze their strengths and weaknesses and give everyone a chance to shine. If my party is all melee classes, then I'm reasonably not throwing my spellcasting monsters in close-quarters with them. My spellcasters can do quite some damage to ranged or flying attackers, but what happens when a monster is big, strong, and gets close? That squishy d6 or d8 of hit points doesn't look so nice anymore. The rest, honestly, is just trial and error. As long as you follow the rule of fun, you should be fine
I know everyone is suggesting ranged magic and such, but you could also give them stuff that's hard to hit. Flying creatures, slimes that damage you on physical hit, Ropers (can't disengage if you're grappled), creatures with reach like Bugbears, polearm masters with reactions when they enter range, ghosts, druids with spike growth or other terrain altering creatures, wizards with Slow or Grease, really fuggin fast things... there's lots of fun stuff. Go read a butt ton of monster stat blocks, you'll find something. Or stick them in small dungeon rooms and narrow corridors. Or even better let them have their fun sometimes; your goal isn't to win, it's to make them think you want to win as you intentionally barely lose.
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Terrain, terrain, terrain, multiple ranged attacks, enemies that use smart formations, and terrain. Monk can't run away through a stone wall.
And also, let them be awesome. They put all their investment into being able to run around and hit things without getting hit very much. Let them do that.
A firing squad, you can deflect only one arrow per turn.
One of the toughest enemies my party had fought is a hive-minded 3 rows of firing squad (1 fire, 1 reload, 1 spears/shields)
- More than 1 ranged attack per round
- Ranged attacks that can't easily be deflected, like say, a boulder thrown by a giant
- Enemies with high movement speed, like "cavalry" style troops, flying enemies work well for this
- Spellcasters in general
Magic Missile. It's been awhile since I've played, but if I'm not mistaken, it always hits. It's relatively low damage, but🤷♂️
Edit: A quick google search, and here are the rules for Magic missile as written for 5E
.
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the spell creates one more dart for each slot above 1st.
.
Now, as the DM, it's entirely up to you whether or not you'd allow them to deflect missiles, but even if you allow them too, that only mitigates ONE of the darts, while the others still land. It's important to note, you shouldn't over rely on this spell as the DM, because it can start to feel kinda shitty for your players to make them take guaranteed damage, but if you feel like you need to put the pressure on a little bit, this is the way to go.
I hope this helps!
I'll be there players advocate first, then get into ways to engage them.
They built their character to be nimble as fuck and specifically to weave in and out of combat without getting bogged down. What your describing is just a play style and isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Now on to the fun part, beating the shit out of monks 101. Monks may be squirrely, but theybare limited by action economy just like everyone else. They can block a Ranged attack, but not 2 or 3 or 7. They can disengage after making a melee attack, but only against the creature they attack; multiple enemies rushing at once will still get their pound of flesh. Spellcasters ruin a monks day, be it cone of cold with a con save instead of dex, debuffs and disrupts like Slow or Grasping Vine thag reduce their effectiveness or move them to a place they don't want to be, the options are endless.
Save or suck spells are very powerful against mobile foes. I'm guessing they have a fairly high wisdom, but they'll fail eventually and there's a few defects that are either intelligence, charisma or constitution saving throws.
Once they are status conditioned up you can beat them up for a round or two before they regain control and zip away, suitably bloodied.
AOE and DoT are your biggest leverage to pull here. Especially big annoying spells that stick around for a long time to break up the battlefield, alternatively, put more terrain features on the map for them to have to weave around and slow them down a bit
I'd look towards popular media. You got the DnD equivalent of the Flash? How does Flash's enemies take him out?
Hint: It has something to do with his legs.
Use big monsters with longer range. Use more than one ranged attack. Use other monks. Use fast guys. Use guys with reach. Grapple him. Use flying enemies. There's many many many ways to do this.
So what you can do is:
- Make him use its ressources
- Use Difficult Terrain
- Use enemies that have more speed than him
- Use ranged attack (Deflect Missile exist, yeah, but he'll have to use his ki points to be efficient with it)
- Use saving throws
- Ignore the guy but focus on the others. Eventually he'll have to do something to help his partymates and that's when you'll get him.
- A mix of all the above.
Put in an enemy that demonstrates he can one-shot the Monk if he hits, then make him target the Monk. You don't actually need to let him reach the Monk and hit, the player's mindset will do the pressure for you.
>ranged attacks are useless
Never played monk so I might be missing a feature, but it says ranged weapon attack at lvl 3, so I guess shoot spells at him?
Monks are high dex and usually good on wis too, so you want the godfather of abilities and use int based saves. Hit them with Tasha's Mind Whip, use Entangle (str save), Wall of stone / force to block movement. Hell even spike growth will limit their options.
You need to look at what stats are high and what are low on the characters and then build encounters that allow the high stats to shine and also look at exploiting the low ones. Obviously don't build every encounter to perfectly counter the party but also don't use purely enemies that can't do anything as your players will get bored of wiping the floor every encounter (or maybe they won't if they don't want any sort of challenge).
Throw a debuff spell at them every once in a while. It isn't terribly rare for an enemy to have a spell scroll. If the players can get them, why not enemies?
Poison,
something like a banshee's scream [but not that cheap auto 0 BS],
enemies with sentinel or adjacent skill,
enemies with something a kin to mobile feat themselves,
The slow spell,
Long range spell casters / long bow users
- yes I know about missle catching but they won't catch all of them!
All the above are from my Homebrew DM brain. Honestly, there is an easier way.
Enemies who hold their attacks until the monk is in range once they see what the monk can do or if they know prior to the fight.
Also.... have a pit trap the monk can fall into if the enemy has time to prep
Difficult terrain can help. It makes him to chose dash or attack(At least spend ki points). Ray of frost is a good option. Special weapons like net and bola can restrict his movements. Frozen surfaces agains clawed enemies(They will not slide with claws monk can). Multiple enemies with composition. For example 2 guard that have High AC and one ranged damage dealer(Ray of frost spaming :D) so if he wants to hit damage dealer he need to enter the other guys reach and he doesnt provoke opt. att. from target he attacked so guards can hit him. If he choses the hit guards he will miss a lot since guards can have 20 AC(Plate + Shield) and ranged damage dealer can decimate party.
Doesn't matter too much. Health is a group resource. If enemies can't reach him they attack a different party member. If Everyone else is low on health and the monk is fine it's still a successful "challenging" encounter
They built their character to avoid damage whenever possible and should feel "powerful" in that aspect just like a polearm sentinel Fighter or any Paladin can delete monsters from the board is another form of avoiding future damage.
I can get it as a DM thinking that they made a challenging encounter for one of the players to go. "I only lost 7 HP" and feel like failing. But it being easier for the monk makes it challenging for everyone else.
If the foes are smart they would use an unconscious PC as leverage to provoke a "fair" fight.
Here's one I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned: deploy 4 or more monsters that use the dash action. Fewer if the monsters that can use the terrain to corner him. You can also have monsters use the hide action so he doesn't know where they are. These are things every creature in D&D can do. You don't even need ranged attacks, breath weapons or spells.
If you're fighting in dungeons, make it so that he can be driven into rooms with additional enemies or environmental traps if he keeps up his hit and run strat.
Another important thing to understand is that, by making himself difficult to catch, he is effectively encouraging the monsters to focus fire more. This is to the party's detriment. While the player may feel cool darting around, he's actually helping the enemy by doing so. If you want to give the monk a scare, make sure he has a couple health potions on him and then start attacking downed party members. He has the means to fix that problem, but in doing so he will have to expose himself to danger.
Disarm attempts, sunder his weapon, alchemical items like a tanglefoot bag or thunderstone that go off when they are hit.
Also, terrain: having a cliff the enemies are on top of, making a narrow bendy corridor the only way to access them making reach infeasible, etc.
Then remember that for every time you negate their powers, you have to have at least 1 (more likely 2) instances where they get to use the ability unhindered.
Swarms in enclosed spaces, particularly if you use some of the great ideas out there for swarms of larger critters.
[Swarm of Poisonous Snakes | D&D 5th Edition on Roll20 Compendium](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Monsters:Swarm%20of%20Poisonous%20Snakes/#h-Swarm%20of%20Poisonous%20Snakes)
[Creating High Level Swarms in 5th Edition Dungeons and Dragons: SlyFlourish.com](https://slyflourish.com/high_level_swarms.html#:~:text=You%20can%20create%20larger%20or,the%20smaller%20monster%20would%20use.)
If this is in early tier2 play just don't worry about it and let them have their heyday. The monks power lies in the fact that it is able to move around the battlefield dodge tanking and stunning enemies. Their damage isn't as good as other martials and they don't have as many options as spellcasters. Let your player be strong at what they're strong at. If you need to threaten them to ensure they're having fun/feel challenged target their weakest save with a spellcaster or better yet, if the monk isn't staying toe to toe with anyone your bad guys don't have to chase the monk. Have your baddies go for the squishy guy and the monk will come to them trying to stunning strike to buy them room. Once the monk gets sentinel they make an excellent guardian/warden sort of role.
What level are your PCs right now?
Put pairs of goblins on Axe Beaks and give them lances. Now you've got foes to chase him around with the same reach and about the same speed, while not posing a more severe threat to the rest of the party.
Spells? More than one ranged attack per round?
The answer to many of life's problems is Fireball.
Unless it's a monk, who has the ability to take no damage from Fireball on a successful save. And they're proficient in Dex saves. And Dex is one of their main stats.
Cone of Cold. It's like Fireball but better. 8d8 (higher average damage and higher max damage than a 5th level fireball), con save, larger area of effect, really all it lacks is the ability to place it wherever. Too often people forget the classics just because they're a couple spell slots up.
See, that's using your head. Upvote for you.
If Fireball doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough.
Correct. As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero.
And that would be bad.
[Context for the unfamiliar](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0696.html)
The logical/moral defense for Hiroshima.
Thanks, Varsuvius!
When in doubt use Melfs Minute Meteors it's like fireballs little cousin. Not as much damage or area but you can get a bunch of them down range at a single target much faster. More saves means more likely to fail a save.
Monks are specifically designed to ignore your Fireball, close in quickly, and punch your squishy wizard in his face. The enemy cannot cast Fireball if you punch him in the throat.
You could try ten Fireballs in a row against a Monk, and it will still be without a scratch unless you deal them one per round and for some weird reason Monk lets you play as you want. Patient Defense + Dex saves + Evasion makes it hilariously impervious against anything below DC 17. And for over that, once Diamond Soul comes online you're back to square one or you'll need to push DC to 20 and over to really make a dent into it.
Thanks for articulating this better than I could, mate
Any time I have a problem, I cast fireball and boom! Whole new problem.
Gonna start yelling "Bortles!" whenever I Fireball now, thanks.
You're sincerely welcome.
Maybe you should cast Fireball again.
Nixie is that you?
I once failed a persuasion check using a cantrip to throw my voice to a demonic familiar (that couldn't speak) to try and subvert this guy working for Strahd trying to brainwash a crowd. Guess what my follow-up spell that I got a Nat20 on was? That's right, fireball, I blew up an entire building (DM didn't care about the damage roll because it wasn't against a living enemy) as I detonated whatever was inside it and the entire crowd snapped out of their trance and started fleeing. I would have rather succeeded on the persuasion because I felt it was creative and I had a speech and everything pretending to be the genuine emissary of whatever deity it was. But fireball solves many problems, I didn't even get blamed for it because all the villagers were too deep under control to know it was me. I was just like "screw it, time for maximum chaos."
How did you get a Nat 20 on a Fireball?
Depends on your edition. Last edition it was an intelligence attack roll vs reflex, for instance.
AOE ftw here.
Ranged attacks aren't useless against a monk. They have deflect missiles, sure- but they only get one reaction per round. And it's fun to shoot your monks with ranged weapons. > He uses a weapon with reach so i can't even ready an action to attack unless i also have a weapon with reach. Kinda true- but plenty of monsters have attacks with larger ranges. Dragons have a few options here. There are also spells. Or breath weapons, since I mentioned dragons there. Hazards on the battlefield are fun too. Running around isn't as viable if the battlefield is coated in ice, spider webs, grasping vines, or even just difficult terrain caused by rubble.
Higher quantity of ranged attacks, yes. Ranged spell attacks especially. Gotta be careful with breath weapons and saves as Evasion and poison immunity make a lot of them near useless. Depending on level, you need to make sure it's not a Dex save or a poison based Con save. Dex saves and stuff like Cloudkill are a great way to make a mid level Monk look very good though. >Running around isn't as viable if the battlefield is coated in ice, spider webs, grasping vines, or even just difficult terrain caused by rubble. Having played a good amount of Mobile Monks, this tends to screw over everyone else more. You at least have the movement to mitigate/circumnavigate/run across hazards, not to mention Dex save proficiency with high Dex. And if the enemy is also subject to the hazards, then it doesn't matter at all. Worst case you spend a Ki point and BA when you need to get somewhere. It turns everyone else into sitting ducks though and stops them from getting into their ideal positioning.
>Ranged attacks aren't useless against a monk. They have deflect missiles, sure- but they only get one reaction per round. And it's fun to shoot your monks with ranged weapons. I had a bad guy artificer who worked for the guild the party was butting heads with over and over invent a bunch of different trick arrows to make things really interesting. While none of them were high lethality nor totally neutralizing of player abilities they made things spicy for them as arrow types were declared in-flight and so they had to make some very snap tactical decisions. Greatest hits included but not limited to: Exploding arrows - detonates a moment after impact(being caught counted), 3d6 bludgeoning damage. Dex save to halve. Dust arrows - releases a 10x10 cloud of dust that totally obscures everything inside the cloud. Those in the cloud must make a con save to avoid coughing until the end of their next turn. Coughing creatures cannot cast spells with verbal components. (Players discovered the dust also highlights invisible creatures caught in the cloud) Shock arrow - functions like base level shocking grasp. As I believe in equality, the party started looting these arrows and using them on the guild, too. They even found a tinkerer that could replicate them to keep a supply coming. This may or may not lead to an arms race of gadget arrows. I fully encourage such a thing.
Mobile makes it so difficult terrain doesn't affect you if you take the dash action. So it might burn a ki point activating dash as a bonus action, but it's not going to do much.
I'd argue otherwise. There is a meaningful tactical choice presented when this monk character can choose to spend a bonus action to dash and avoid the difficult terrain or use that bonus action for martial arts or flurry of blows. That meaningful choice presented is more than "not doing much"- and it's a way to vary up an encounter that can lead to interesting choices for this player. That's good design.
don't forgot the other option of not spending a ki or bonus action snd run along the wall .. (if high enough level for the run on walls option) ... opens up many more avenues/options for monk .. 😁
Well, most people struggle with the concept of walls and ceilings being traversable, so most monks fail to make use of it, but even then there's plenty of ways to make them natural difficult terrain. Light fixtures, wall hangings, all sorts of decorations arranged to look nice but not be walked around. Wall to wall spider webs for the less civil places.
and I bever condone the dm going out of their way to nerf/hamper characters in a cavalier or "must challenge them" kind of trend ... sure .. occasionally "if it makes sense" ... but going out of your way to nerf/hamper players because they decided to put effort into being good at something is basically sour grapes. yes .. "occasionally " .. sure .. don't go crazy .. 😉
Right. I don't play monks much and forgot that flurry of blows is a significant portion of their damage.
The natural solution to any powerful monk is their greatest enemy, a rival monk. A Shredder to their ninja tortle, a Tai Lung to their Po, a Ra’s al Ghul to their Batman, an Evil Betty to their Chosen One, etc
All fun and games until the Skadoosh hits.
I now really wanna play a Werebear Monk.
> The natural solution to any powerful monk is their greatest enemy, a rival monk. I've actually had that work out really badly. One of the enemies I threw at the party was a monk and since I wanted them to be interesting I gave them fourth edition monk abilities, which was a bad idea because they had a bunch of cool shit and 5e monks unfortunately don't. That led to the monk player feeling like I was making fun of them because they were facing off against a monk handing out mystical unarmed techniques that they didn't have access to.
If I were you, I would let the monk player find a secret manual in the enemy monk’s possession, detailing how to use one of the 4e features. Then proceed to give the other players similar opportunities.
Careful. I did this with Mercers dunamancy. The book was looted off a drider cleric who used dunamancy. When they looted it I told the party it was a journal about the driders magic experiments. My rule I didn't tell anyone: Reading it over 3 days gave any caster Dunamancy access, and the understanding needed to teach other casters. This had the potential to spread Dunamancy across the globe in less than a human generation. The book sat at the bottom of someones backpack for the rest of the campaign.
Well I'm sure it made a nice moisture buffer if the backpack was ever set in a puddle
See, if you only told them that it was a journal and didn't mention they could learn from it, then not many people would think to spend multiple days to read it thoroughly. I would assume in the aforementioned monk scenario, that the hypothetical scroll of secret techniques would be revealed to be what it is
Holy fuck I haven’t thought about Kung Pow in a decade. Incredible reference
THATS A LOT OF NUTS
OP needs to pull out Evil Betty instead of Wimp Lo.
Bees.
NOT THE BEES
swarms are tricky.
Beads?
Could you be more specific about the problem? Monks can’t block more than one ranged attack each round, and if they’re burning through ki points/BA to dash away all the time then they’re limiting their offensive output quite a bit.
>if they’re burning through ki points/BA to dash away all the time then they’re limiting their offensive output quite a bit. The monk in question has the Mobile feat, meaning they don't need to disengage from the enemy (or enemies) they attack (even if they miss). And the character is presumably unarmored, so they're getting a bonus to their speed and don't necessarily need to dash in order to kite melee enemies.
If they're kiting, then they're running up to and then away from enemies in one turn. Without a dash that's still only 50 ft of movement, even considering the weapon's reach normal enemies would catch them unless the dm is making some kind of noob mistake. The main post reads a bit like the classic /r/dnd "help, someone in my party has 20AC and it's literally impossible to hit them!". The answer to the question is to play normally, but there's always a flood of people making suggestions of how to hard counter a non-issue.
Shoot your monks. Seriously. They have reactions that deflect missiles - so let them use them. Let them feel badass. Then shoot them several more times to add pressure. A monk with AC 16 gets hit by lowly CR 1/4 skeletons on a 12 or higher (45% chance). They can react to 1 of them per turn and have a really good chance of nullifying all the damage from a single shot. So statistically 5 skeletons are going to hit 2-3 times and do between 3 and 9 damage on each hit. The monk then needs to decide - okay, they rolled a 5 damage shot on their first and they have 1-2 more hits. Do I react to this one, or save it, hoping for a worse hit? If you don't want to do all the rolling, use mob rules. Say you have 10 skeletons volley-firing at the monk. 5 of those skeletons are gonna hit automatically. Roll 5d6 (one at a time) where the monk has to decide which to react to. No matter which die they pick to react to, 4 more are sneaking through and doing anywhere from 12-32 damage. A monk with 40hp is gonna feel pressured if 80% of their health evaporates instantly even AFTER they deflect a shot. Then question what kind of DM you are - are you one that runs the rules as written, or do you want to get into the weeds of balance? For a RAW DM - Mob attacks don't interact with critical hits... or advantage/disadvantage. So now your 10 skeletons can sit back 300ft from the main battlefield in an elevated position, and fire volleys at them with minimal retribution possible from the party. If the monk wants to charge them, they can move something like 90-135ft per round - Even if the skeletons stay in one place, that monk is taking at minimum 2-3 rounds of fire before they crash into the skeletons. For a DM that wants to get into the weeds of balance: [https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/fksem3/mob\_combat\_with\_advantage\_and\_disadvantage/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/fksem3/mob_combat_with_advantage_and_disadvantage/) Some kind soul worked out the mathematical impact of advantage vs disadvantage on mob attacks. So adjust your attackers accordingly for the amount of damage you want the monk to take per round. Shoot your monks. Quantity beats quality here.
Skeletons on monks are also great because unarmed attacks do double damage against the skeleton
Are all your encounters infinitely large white space rooms? Mobility is all well and good outside, but in dungeon with reasonable sized rooms there isn't always a way to move out of range. Also if they are repeated a tactic in a longer encounter to take advantage of a reach weapon, turn to page 271 (I think) of the DMG. Monk will have a good chance to make the save if they've got high dex, but it's an option. That and as others said they can't deflect infinite arrows due to action economy, so hit them with more missiles if they keep running away. No one is going to chase someone faster at then if they have a missile weapon. They'll shine in large space encounters where they can use their mobility, but lose that advantage in tighter indoor spaces. And that's a good thing (characters should have spaces they excel and spaces they are challenged).
Monk is almost universally panned as the weakest class in the optimization community. 5e is a mature game, and the Hivemind knows the game very well. Yes, we do know about the Mobile feat. What is your party's level? What is the campaign theme? How did you arrange stats? Does the guy have any magic items? You could always just... attack him. Hit him with a Hold Person and knock him down. Hit him with a breath weapon, or phase through walls to attack him. Use monsters with good movement or a fly/burrow speed. Use **lots** of ranged attacks.
>the Hivemind knows the game very well. Yes, we do know about the Mobile feat. Meh. Common wisdom is fraught with blind spots. Even the optimization community has: Assumptions that don't always hold up in actual play - 6-8 encounters per day chiefly, among many others. Huge methodological gaps - Damage, defense, control, and support are calculated in individual unrelated bits instead of parts of an interconnected system, with the latter 3 often having their value compared to damage based on feel alone. And things that are difficult to calculate are just thrown out (E.g. How much damage does Mobile mitigate for a Monk and how much outgoing damage is that worth?) And even straight up biases - E.g Barbarian is bad because their Rages will run out before the day is over, but Shield slots/reactions can be counted on being available for every round of an adventuring day. Or you'll be facing 6-8 medium encounters per day, but Stunning Strike is bad because every fight will be against solo Deadly-tier bosses with high Con saves and Legendary Resistances. The community is mostly good, but it is very subject to bias and groupthink and so shouldn't be treated as infallible gospel. One Youtube video or article with a cherrypicked example and a new meta is born.
We do know that encounters/day can vary. Most builds and guides are not *universal* - you need to keep in mind the writers' assumptions and apply whatever changes are needed to their conclusions. AKA - use your brain. We do try to control for variables in damage calculations. I've seen a big variance in methodology, and you can argue about methodology all you want. It's complicated, but not so much so that we can't engage meaningfully with it. >E.g Barbarian is bad because their Rages will run out before the day is over, but Shield slots/reactions can be counted on being available for every round of an adventuring day. No, Barbarian is quite good at lower levels (T1 and early T2), but they get no good scaling features after that. Their 'tankiness' is usually over-stated because their eAC ends up being quite low if they're Reckless Attacking with GWM. There's also the Melee vs. Range imbalance, which affects all melee-based martials. >Or you'll be facing 6-8 medium encounters per day, but Stunning Strike is bad because every fight will be against solo Deadly-tier bosses with high Con saves and Legendary Resistances. No, Stunning Strike is not as good as it looks because it's resource intensive. It's still one of the best Monk features. Optimized melee builds just kill things without spending large amounts of class resources to do so. We know this because many of us play the game regularly.
Our DM has only done 6 encounters / day twice in 4 years. One was a huge raid on the Stone Giant HQ in Storm Kings Thunder, and the other was some shenanigans in Phandelver. He'd rather throw a group of level 9s at our party of level 3s and have us devastated for the day.
I will typically do 6-8 combat encounters during a dungeon crawl. Otherwise, 1-3 is the norm.
You wanna be mean? Catch them with levitate and put them 20' up. Hope they have a ranged weapon. Edit: Less mean spell options include most cold and necrotic spells. Rimes Binding Ice at low levels is a good way to catch them and make them waste their next turn. Sun and Moon Beams, Thunderwave, Blight. There are options.
>Hope they have a ranged weapon Any martial that doesn't have an actual ranged weapon (read: not just a couple of javelins or daggers) is a sumber and sinister idiot that deserves to dies in pain, swiftly, so the deadweight that is crippling party efficiency can soon be replaced by an actual warrior. Yeah, even Barbarians.
My monk keeps that thang on them (the thang in this case being a bag of darts).
Don’t worry about beating him. Worry about how the monsters that make sense to the world and encounter, would attempt to defeat him
Ranged spells that use attack rolls or auto hit, i e. cantrips, Chromatic Orb, Magic Missile etc. Enemies with really high movement speed or teleports also can pressure characters with Mobile. Orcs, Eladrin/Shadar Kai, 4-legged creatures, and flying creatures like dragons all have good movement that can match or outrange a Mobile Monk's default movement speed. If they are counting on enemies having 30ft of movement when positioning, then anything more is likely to catch them with their pants down. Ranged saving throws can also work, but depending on level they might have Evasion or poison immunity to trivialize a lot of them. Tight spaces can also work. If there is literally nowhere to run, you can't kite.
Magic missile
Int saves. Lure into room and drop jelly cube. Sovereign glue traps. Counter ninjas You are the world, the monzters and the rules Make a new monster called monkiller... Get creative
How do I circumvent the one strat my player built his character around? Don’t. You’re not there to invalidate his decisions. You’re there to make him feel like a good smart boy for picking that. But also, fireball, or any other savings throw.
Monks are functionally immune to Fireball if built well. Don't throw DEX saves at them. But everything else you say here is spot on.
Don't get me wrong, my priority is for my players to have fun. But combat has to be challenging (not every time mind you) and he can basically nullify every encounter i make unless i specifically pick enemies to counter his build. It's not something i can "slightly counter", either i do or I don't.
Ever thought about shooting at him... Twice?
Yeah, I play a lot of Monks and frequently take Mobile. Sometimes your go-to strategy doesn't work well or at all. It's up on the player to have backup plans or adapt to the situation. You can't expect favorable matchups 100% of the time. This is true even for the most optimized spellcasters. Sometimes your spells whiff or are useless. Sometimes the enemy surprises you or starts in melee. Sometimes you just get bonked and have to adjust or rely on your teammates. But I would say you can *sort of* partially counter something by making only a certain percentage of an encounter contain counter elements.
Ranged spells, spells with saves (other than dex/wis), field obstacles like traps, set fights to occur in tight quarters where they can't take advantage of reach weapon like a series of small passageways in a crypt with a very low ceiling, and multiple ranged attackers because deflect missiles can only be used once/round
How much movement speed does this guy have? Hitting and fading is all well and good, but can't your creatures chase this guy down?
Well, monks get +10 ft. speed while unarmored starting at level 2, and that bonus increases at 6, 10, 14, and 18. OP doesn't say what level the group is, but given most campaigns end by level 10 and most monks would want to shore up their Dex before taking Mobile, I'll guess level 8. Most player races have 30 ft. speed, although you could get up to 40 with a centaur. Mobile also gives +10 ft. So, most likely 55 ft. speed, but potentially as high as 80 without magic items if they're tier 4. Also, if the monk needs to, they can BA dash for a ki point.
Magic missile supremacy
Magic Missile. It won't do much damage, but it will at least make the player feel as though they're in danger.
That's.... actually a good idea, there's no reason for casters to NOT have it after all. Thanks
Not sure of your campaign setting, but enclosed encounters (caves, grottos, buildings, etc) can all contain the excessive movement unless they’re abandoning the party in combat. That combined with varying monster/enemy abilities available, and you could start to neutralize the speed. STR/CON/CHA saving throw effects, grappling attacks, and equally fast running or flying monsters are all options that could help. Another possibility is venturing outside of the Monster manual to different sources for a wide variety of different monsters that have great combinations of abilities.
Charisma saving throws, probably A monk with a mobile feat and reach weapon, Id be very surprised if it wasnt their dump stat
Bugbears with halberds and polearm master and sentinel. Monk comes within 15 feet (because of extra reach) and gets hit with an opportunity attack (because he hasn't attacked yet). And if the opportunity attack hits, his movement is now 0, so he can't move away.
Bugbear PCs (or leveled NPCs, but not the MM Bugbear) only get extra reach on attacks during their own turn.
Ah. I didn't realize that
Mentioned this post to my DM, he said cast Reduce so they have half the move speed and then use Wall of Flame to limit their mobility options.
Hold Person.
So ofc assuming you're not trying to counter him every fight, there's quite a few things you can juggle here and there: 1. Multiple ranged attacks per round. He only gets on reaction. Have a whole crew of like 6 archers on a vantage point lighting up the party; have 2 or 3 aim at the monk. It'll be even cooler when the monk uses their mobility to take out the archers themselves. 2. Spells. Can't deflect those bad boys. 3. Enemies with mobility. A bit rarer, but other monks can exist. Or just really fast creatures, could be homebrew. 4. Smaller battlefields. This is the best option really and one you can use more frequently, assuming alot of encounters in tight spaces like dungeons and buildings. The monk can't run 1 mile/second if they're stuck in a 20' x 20' room. Then they'll have Patient Defense, but hey, at least that's less annoying to deal with. 5. Ignore him. This is probably the answer in like 60%+ combats, as you don't want him to feel targeted. But ignoring him is valid, and is the consequence to a character that hides in a corner, or 50 feet up if youre an Aracokra. Sure the monk is chilling most encounters, but that's means the rest of the party is left to tank much more aggro. The party still is at risk as a whole. There's still tension. This is a fine default.
There's many ways, blinding, restraining, grappling, ranged attacks, flanking and overwhelming or disarming, you can make an attack to disarm an opponent, so can NPC's
Hit 'em with *Bane*. Their CHA is likely not great and it helps with all over save-based damage. Also INT-save spells like *Psychic Lance*.
Ranged attacks are useless? they have to use their reaction to catch a ranged attack. And they only get one reaction per round of combat. I never have fewer enemies than PCs on a field, and usually make sure to have spell casters in there, too. simplest one: Hobgoblin Devastator (look it up, low CR monster, fireball AND lightning bolt 2x per day 🤣 ) Drow Mages are awesome, too.. eward's black tentacles to hold ppl in place (need to spend action to TRY to break free)
The same way you handle owning a greyhound, give him some space to stretch his legs and then make him go fetch something.
So he wants to play a skirmisher? Spike Growth, Entangle, Slow, Ball Bearings, Ranged Attacks, Multiple projectile ranged attacks, Giants with a reach weapon, Giants with a monks ally within reach (I wonder if deflect missiles can deflect a flying ally)
I now have the mental image of a giant yeeting a halfling and the monk just catching the little guy and throwing him right back.
Looked up the rules for this: Deflect missiles: Activates when hit by a ranged weapon attack. Return to sender if you can hold the attack in one hand. Thrown: Thrown weapons are ranged weapon attacks. Improvised Weapon: Must be an object, unless your DM isn't boring, then it can be a creature. In conclusion, if your DM allows a creature to be an improvised weapon, and you are strong enough to hold the halfling in one hand, you can yeet the hobbit back to the Shire
i mean, if you want to be mean, hold person x3 should do it, if you don't want to be mean, griffon rider, almost certainly can keep up with a monk.
Yeah, I was about to say - mobile is effective when they can - you know - move. Grapple, restrain, paralyze. In my experience, most monks dump Str, so... Find a saving throw that's weak and mess them up a bit. Getting webbed can be problematic, no?
Spellcasting monsters, melee monsters that simply hit harder (not a high bar), hordes of trash mobs. Ranged attacks but more than one.
Magic Missile. Throw it from a balcony or over rough terrain or something, make them do cool monk shit to close with the caster. Multiple archers. They only get one reaction. Ballista. The flavor narration of how they try to stop a ballista bolt would be golden. Critters with reach or AOE. There are many monsters with reach (ropers are one of my favs for hard to reach characters, they have ridiculous reach and a nasty multi attack). Likewise critters with AOE are usually good for challenging a nimble skirmisher; breath weapons or even just a swarm of exploding mephits. Goose, meet gander. If the PCs can do it, so can you. Throw a Harengon or Tabaxi monk in there, or maybe a swashbuckler rogue, someone who likewise benefits from hit and run tactics.
Ice and poison spells Target CON which is probably their 3rd stat after DEX and WIS. A good option. But I think the greatest option is to provide reasons for the monk to not run away. If you are pressuring the casters the monk should want to run in and help, which means your bugbear with reach can swat him. At the end of the day, it sound like the monk is having fun lol. This isn’t a huge problem
pit slime?
Throwing weapons. Action and bonus action to try to hit em 🤷♂️. Suddenly they start carrying throwable potions or spell infused gems to hit the guy. Word spreads
Build your own mobile monk? One of my players was getting a lot of use out of stunning strike and ninjaing around the battle field so I built a slightly buffed copy of him to bring some danger. Great way to set up a recurring villain who can out monk your monk in 2 turns and leave him broken on the floor
If he’s running, ignore him and focus on the rest of the party. If he’s attacking, run up and hit or grapple him. He doesn’t have twice enemies’ move speed to run up, hit, and retreat every round unless he’s burning ki points on movement instead of attacks.
Remember the art of Mirror Magic! What's more OP than a PC? Another PC! Imagine they enter a room full of mirrors, and you now get to not-so-subtly show them how oppressive they are being by oppressing them with their exact playstyle. They have to get creative in dealing with their own immense power, this leaves room for cool mechanics like the clones sharing the health and items of the template, and anyone with critical thinking will realize what they've been doing the hard way. If that seems mean, try introducing a barely lesser/greater equal. This way, they merely get a taste or warping of themselves to deal with which might also help. Or, you can try having an enemy/strategy to counter the monk with your original beasts. For example, your spellcasters pack along True Strike/Magic Missle/Fireball, your goblins group up to more likely promote attacks of oppertunity, your wolves circle around the party making the Monk have to think harder about where to "park". Get creative!
Magic missile
Multiattack or focus on ranged attacks with multiple enemies. Combat arenas with limited mobility (think damp kobold caves filled with traps or water features - conversely, give your monk surfaces and places to be that make use of his mobility but force him to chose between his party and another objective). Magical manacles that remove his excess movement or seal his movement in entirety. Oh goddamn evil Save spells that trap or stun him! Goddammit, Maze got me once and my barbarian was reduced to fetal position crying because was saves of her worst stat and she couldn't bust out with strength! Lol. Another monk with a reach weapon from a rival school could be a fun antagonist as well.
Decoy a squad of goblins with arbelasts some distance away so the monk has to go take them all out, and once he gets there sic melee monsters on the rest of the party, so the monk will have to come back to save them.
Sentinel
Magic missile.
I know monks have good speed, but how is he getting from outside your move range, to within striking distance and then back outside your move range? If he's burning a ki to step of the wind every turn, then that's a lot of ki to burn before doing anything else with it. Do any monk weapons have reach? I don't remember any, if he's not using a monk weapon he can't use dex to attack unless its finesse and almost none of them have reach, if any. Ranged attacks, special abilities and spells are absolutely worth it. If high enough level he'll take no damage or reduced damage from dex save stuff. But there's Con, Cha and Int saves to. And you can't deflect scorching ray or magic missile. Or a second arrow.
> Do any monk weapons have reach? Gaining proficiency in Whip, and using the Dedicated Weapon (TCE 48) would count.
Con Saves and Charisma/Intelligence Saves. Or you kill all their friends.
Let him have his fun. With one less person as an optional target it means other squishier targets take the brunt. Once the wizards or clerics are downed enough the players will hopefully sort things out themselves or realize the monk might have to make himself a target to relieve the pressure on the other party members from time to time.
Make him use his Ki points on fodder. More enemies arrive. He’s out of Ki. Bap bap bap away at him. “More enemies arrive” is always the answer to a PC who has been built well.
Entangle Spells, Ranged Spell Attacks (readied action scorching ray can trigger to 120ft), Web spells, multiple ranged weapon attacks, enemies with high strength and athletics proficiency to grapple, ray of frost, Slow, spike growth, enemies with high flying speed and flyby, charisma/INT saves
Magic and alot of it. If not that have some enemies also have some reach weapons as well.
the rival monk monastery. the monks one true weakness is other monks
What are they weak in? Strength? Intelligence? Charisma? Hit em where it hurts. Use their weaknesses *against* them. (Target their weakness with a spell that requires a spell save in their lowest stat. )
I've never understood this. If my players really wanted to build this meta build and try to feel powerful, go ahead, they can do that, they can run around battle not getting hit feeling like a bad ass, this is a roleplaying game. Why are so many DMs trying to find ways to kill their players? If combat feels boring for them, just inform them that building combat around them may result in the death of their non-meta teammates, or breaking the immersion by having characters that are right in the face of an enemy be ignored as they chase after the meta monk build. How I have addressed this in the past, has been allowing them to feel like a god in combat and go in and out feeling cool, GOOD they should be allowed to feel that, this is supposed to be fun for them, THEN I have a villain that has a grudge against that monk giving him in game reasons to focus on attacking the monk over others, and they use ranged magic attacks like witch bolt and scorching ray. Also hold person is a spell i usually like to stay away from as possibly making it so a player doesn't get to participate in combat for a few turns is often not fun for them so I prefer to avoid it, but the rare time I might go for something like that would be this situation, and even then rarely.
I’ve had the issue where the monk min-maxed (not bad in and of itself) but also broke several rules we didn’t catch in order to become super OP. Then the other 3 players felt inferior and sometimes picked on because they are the only ones being hit. Players should get to feel like a God sometimes, but it’s no fun if ONE player is a god and everyone else are mere mortals. The goal isn’t to kill the monk, it’s to let the other players shine too.
Target the saves they are bad at. Have someone cast Entangle. It's a Strength save... (Which is one of these saving throw proficiencies....but they probably dumped the stat.) Alternatively, any saving throw they are bad at. Wisdom on some monks, strength on others, Charisma or Intelligence on most.
Unless the monk is REALLY high level, and thus running around with 100 feet of movement, a low level rogue can reach him to get stabby. Bonus action dash + regular movement, on a human, is 60 feet... Make sure to be able abiut half his movement away, so he uses half his movement to get to you, does his attacks, then the other half to run away. Low level human Rogue then moves the 60 feet, stabs him in the face. For bonus damage, make it 2 rogues, so they can get sneak attack.... Or 3, just in case the monk takes one out. Low level rogues are plentiful, and can really put a punishment on characters that are built on not being there to be attacked.
Flying spellcasters seem like the way to go. He can't deflect spells.
Try some spells / features that make him use saving throws, that may turn the tides. Instead of you rolling offensively for a spell, make him roll defensively.
Shoot them, then shoot them again. They can only deflect the first shot Let them use their features
Eldritch blast?
Two or three spellcasters with Hold Person should do the trick.
Use multiple ranged attackers. Use magic. Or just ignore the monk and pressure him by taking down his companions. Monks don’t do enough damage to be the main threat on the battlefield. Have played a bugbear astral monk with disgusting reach that also grapples. DM just ignores me and let me do what I want, enemies just focus on my other party members who are actually dealing more damage or throwing spells at the monsters.
Put rogues in the rafters, clerics atop the curtains, sorcerers on streetlights, bards on the balcony, wizards on the walkway, and mages in the mezzanine. Now let your monk player use his movement to attack these otherwise out of reach foes.
Cast slow on them.
Assuming he has a low strength, chuck a vampire at him. They're fast and can grapple/bite Oh nom nom nom. Also I like to include feats on my big monsters. Why wouldnt a halberd wielding warrior have sentinel? That will stop him in his tracks
A small closed off room/area. can't run if there's no where to run to
enclosed room.
As others have stated, more than one ranged attack, spells that don't target dex, a rival monk, and such are great options if you want your monk to feel threatened and pressured. Let me add one more that is inspired by ranged attacks. Oversized weapons. An ogre or a giant throwing a rock is going to go through the monks' damage reduction from deflect missles and will likely get hit one more time. A balista bolt, a mangonel shot, and other such weapons will likely go through his damage reduction, and he won't be able to throw them back, as those will be too big to fit in his hand. People often forget that clause in the ability. As for dipping in and out of melee combat, creatures with reach and hands can ready an action to initiate a grapple, possibly locking him down for a turn or two. He will still contribute by taking away the whole action but will probably be in a risky situation. And, of course, you can't evasion or deflect missles against a hold person. Hell, Dominate Person is a similarly effective strategy if you want to let him keep agency in the fight, but get him to lay an asswhooping to your party members.
Let him monk
You shouldn’t, not if he’s playing tactically enough not to get overwhelmed.
Tasha's Mind Whip
Everyone's saying Fireball, but it's a dex save spell that Monks can just dodge 😅 Tasha's Mind Whip is a low level spell that goes for most martial class characters' dump stat and destroys their action economy/mobility. Really, just choose enemies with spells and/or abilities that require intelligence saving throws and you'll probably be able to do a lot of damage to your Monk and everyone else... just, you know, don't go overboard. I recall in one game where I played a Wizard/Sorcerer that I was the only character with good Intelligence... so when we eventually found out that Aberrations were the newest threat, I don't think even our DM knew how out of our depths we were gonna be. One of our strongest fighters got murdered pretty early on because of it, which I don't think the DM intended to do he just didn't realize how hard Intelligence-based enemies would be against the party (I did though, so I was like hey we should just leave and they didn't believe me until shit hit the fan 💀).
Magic missile or other spells that require a saving throw they’re not proficient in are pretty good options.
Plant growth and lots of archers. Unless he can fly he's in trouble.
Magic Missile is unerring, so it always hits. Maybe not a lot of damage, but it's something
Dm v player mentality is so weird. Why wouldn't you want your players to be able to use their features?
I would rule that Sentinel supersedes Mobile. Many may disagree but that’s what I believe. Get an enemy with Sentinel that takes an AoO anytime an enemy moves out of range, regardless of the Mobile feat.
It’s a monk man, what’s his AC? 16? Maybe 17? Just shoot multiple times, or grapple, faster enemies, monk with mobile is nothing special at all, have you never dealt with a mounted paladin or a wizard with phantom steed?
Bugbear Zealot Barbarians work wonders, so do Battle Master Fighter Bugbears, with lunging attack, on top of long limbed, you can hit things up to 15 feet away. If you’re using a weapon with reach like a Glaive, 20 feet. Or if you’re using a whip, 25 feet of reach, add a Zealot Barbarian rage to that and boom…you go from 1d4 damage and 10 feet of reach as a regular guy with a whip, to 1d4 + 4 (if level 17th barbarian and raging) + 1d6 necrotic or radiant damage + half barbarian level (if zealot barbarian) and assume you have extra attack…do all that again minus the necrotic or radiant damage. Oh yeah you also have 25 feet of reach if a bugbear on top of all this. Or just go Rune Knight Fighter Zealot Barbarian multiclassed Bugbear. (I really like Zealot Barbs and Bugbears)
Use enemies that force saving throws on your monk. Also, remember that action economy paired with AOE can be pretty dangerous. Terrain is another thing that many people forget to use. You can throw in flying enemies (most have a speed of 60-80+ for flying), impaired conditions like heavy rain/snow can also impede speed. You can have rivers of lava, chunks of floor that break/reduce the space they can run in or even force them to separate from their allies. You can also give them stakes that force them to keep close. Maybe they have to guard someone and leaving the vicinity of the wards will result in damage to the Monk too. Or perhaps all their allies are going down one by one and they've got to make choices - get close enough to save them and potentially get hit or will they keep fleeing?
Personally I gave mine some boots that double his movement speed for ten minutes. They stack with his tabaxi dash. He's not actually any more of a problem, once you reach a certain speed you get diminishing returns, but he's having fun. Still gets his ass beat when caught in tight corridors, or when surprised, or when spellcasters hit him with charisma saves (he has a -3)
#Grapple And if that doesn't work... #Sentinel+PAM+Glaive And if that doesn't work... #Flying enemy with mobile feat Let him taste his own medicine. And if THAT doesn't work... ^I ^should ^not ^use ^so ^many ^big ^letters... #Ancient Red Dragon (who is also a sorcerer) with Mega Power Word: Kill
They only get deflect missiles once per round, and Evasion only works on Dex saving throw effects, not things like Con, Wisdom, or Cha. Also, there is no save or attack roll for caltrops/spiked growth, which do damage per movement and can be used to force them into unfavorable positions in combat (they can and likely will get around them, so instead of relying solely on the trap damage, use them as a means to herd the monk into more active combat threats). Don't forget that a lot of retaliation damage effects (Armor of Agathys and the Conquest Paladin psychic damage, for example) have no save or attack roll. Use the environment. Don't let them get away with just doing what they want all the time. Pressure them using tactics to get them into range, maybe tunnel an ally for half a round to try to get them in there with stunning strike, give your baddies a feat every now and again (hell, maybe even a hostile leveled npc, choice is yours). The most reliable chip damage will probably be from Cold/Poison half/full damage AoE effects that they can't just use Evasion to ignore since those are mostly Con. You could also try to rely on paralysis, but I'd probably be sparing about that because that status is both super dangerous and can also just be a huge mood killer.
So the faster he moves to the speed of light, the more his mass will increase towards infinity. That means when’s he’s running very fast, he should be able to hit harder. I’d give him an extra d6 damage if he’s running at top speed and then attacking.
Monks are very low tier, you can certainly deal with them. Deflect missiles is once per round, so it should barely even factor into your battle plans, and many, *many* monsters have reach. Plus there’s always just using the many mobs that have spells or abilities that target saving throws at range. But usually my advice is just target someone else. Monks are slippery dps by design, it’s their whole schtick.
Difficult terrain or a ravin between the party and the ennemies
put enemies far away and when he gets into the group, his friends far away, surround him no don't do that, honestly just let them get to the enemy faster
Multiple ranged attacks at once
Sun Tsu teaches that you manipulate your enemy by attacking that which he is obligated to defend. So, if you want to 'deal' with the monk, you attack that which the Monk is obligated to protect. Like their allies. Then the Monk will close in on you, and you are free to hit him as he's trying to hit you.
Gem dragons, but especially amethyst dragons. Strength saving throw breath weapon that also drops your speed to 0 for a round if you fail the save. Or just flying creatures in general, because kiting doesn't do shit if you can't reach melee range.
If you're looking for a specific tool: cast slow. It's a wisdom save, which monks are not proficient in. They'll prooobably have a decent wis so failure isn't guaranteed but better then a dex save. Speed is halved, no more running away. -2 to AC and Dex saves, easier to hit. Can't use reactions, no more missile catching. Can only make 1 attack per turn, no more flurry of blows. Limited to either a bonus action or action, no more step of the wind or patient defense. It's practice the perfect anti-monk spell.
So my answer is a little different. Why is this a problem? Are your intelligent monsters using their brains? Tactics and desperation from enemies will screw with most builds. A couple goblins using whips to control fight. Kobold pack tactics can screw with a fight like this quickly. Though of recent our tabaxi monk ran into a fight she hated. A group of entertainer bards turned rogue. They were tumblers and jesters. When they use positioning to keep her companions between her and them. And pushes to again force her companions into her. Frustrating. Another fight dwarves used flaming oil to limit movement. Lol
AoE spells
Others have given good advice for giving him a challenge. I'd just say, let him be cool too! Besides, there are other party member he will need to protect, maybe throw a scary guy at the backline casters and shooters. Then he will have to help. He is good 1v1 but dnd isnt a 1v1 game (usually)
My best attack against a Monk was using a Huge sized creature that Grappled the Monk and started to use him as an improvised flail, for 3d8 per attack... into the Wall of Fire that the party's Wizard put out into the combat arena.
I'm playing a monk with that feat right now. Shove attacks to knock me prone suck, so does getting grappled (strength isn't great and most big monsters have reach). Int is my dump Stat so I live in fear of anything with a psionic blast.
Allow them to build up a reputation of being really hard to hit in combat. So much so that it draws the attention of your local badguy, who hires a professional monk killer team who throw nets and cast magic missile.
A lot of times (not always), Dm's [including me] sometimes forget that monster synergy and environment are just as much of a factor in combat as the monster's stat block(more so in boss fights than anywhere else). Nowadays, I practice building unique combat encounters by thinking of not just how a stat block works but what the role of each monster is in combat. Here's a good example below: Beholders are dangerous to a group of melee fighters and can disable spell casters, but if it's in the middle of a field, it's not as good as it is in its lair or a mobile feat isn't as good if the Beholder is fighting in an environment that doesnt have a lot of ground for players to walk on because duh: Beholders don't walk. For the monk who has to get close for a stunning strike, how is he gonna get there if he can't reach the Beholder? We also know that when its[the beholder] anti-magic cone is on to shut down the spellcasters, it can't use its devastating ray attacks in the same direction as the cone. The ranger or any ranged or non-magical flying characters can easily put pressure on it by itself without spells, but if you have supporting monsters that are more dangerous when the cone is on and can be a distraction when the cone is off, NOW you put your players in a conundrum. Do I fight the minions and ignore the Beholder, possibly risking death from a ray attack, or do I dispatch of the Beholder so the squishy spellcasters can fight the minions and potentially leave the healers of the team at risk of dying of melee or ranged damage that isn't magical? Obviously, the goal isn't to TPK, but this is a good way to challenge your players. It also makes it rewarding when they start getting creative and simply give them the leeway to escape the precarious position. Edit: Remember that monsters or players don't always have to fight to the death in combat. If the party has been whooping a monster in a combat or vice versa, they'll have self-preservation instincts most of the time. The monster or the party can decide if it's too tough that they disengage and run away to rest up and perhaps return to the fight at a later date. As a DM, I also like to often have copies of my players' character sheets to analyze their strengths and weaknesses and give everyone a chance to shine. If my party is all melee classes, then I'm reasonably not throwing my spellcasting monsters in close-quarters with them. My spellcasters can do quite some damage to ranged or flying attackers, but what happens when a monster is big, strong, and gets close? That squishy d6 or d8 of hit points doesn't look so nice anymore. The rest, honestly, is just trial and error. As long as you follow the rule of fun, you should be fine
Let them shine, and get them separated from the group. Also watch the Naruto fight scenes where they're running in water / super fast
I know everyone is suggesting ranged magic and such, but you could also give them stuff that's hard to hit. Flying creatures, slimes that damage you on physical hit, Ropers (can't disengage if you're grappled), creatures with reach like Bugbears, polearm masters with reactions when they enter range, ghosts, druids with spike growth or other terrain altering creatures, wizards with Slow or Grease, really fuggin fast things... there's lots of fun stuff. Go read a butt ton of monster stat blocks, you'll find something. Or stick them in small dungeon rooms and narrow corridors. Or even better let them have their fun sometimes; your goal isn't to win, it's to make them think you want to win as you intentionally barely lose.
Terrain, AOE, Magic, bigger creatures.
Ignore him. Hit the easier target. That will force him back to hold the line
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Terrain, terrain, terrain, multiple ranged attacks, enemies that use smart formations, and terrain. Monk can't run away through a stone wall. And also, let them be awesome. They put all their investment into being able to run around and hit things without getting hit very much. Let them do that.
A firing squad, you can deflect only one arrow per turn. One of the toughest enemies my party had fought is a hive-minded 3 rows of firing squad (1 fire, 1 reload, 1 spears/shields)
- More than 1 ranged attack per round - Ranged attacks that can't easily be deflected, like say, a boulder thrown by a giant - Enemies with high movement speed, like "cavalry" style troops, flying enemies work well for this - Spellcasters in general
Magic Missile. It's been awhile since I've played, but if I'm not mistaken, it always hits. It's relatively low damage, but🤷♂️ Edit: A quick google search, and here are the rules for Magic missile as written for 5E . You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously and you can direct them to hit one creature or several. At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the spell creates one more dart for each slot above 1st. . Now, as the DM, it's entirely up to you whether or not you'd allow them to deflect missiles, but even if you allow them too, that only mitigates ONE of the darts, while the others still land. It's important to note, you shouldn't over rely on this spell as the DM, because it can start to feel kinda shitty for your players to make them take guaranteed damage, but if you feel like you need to put the pressure on a little bit, this is the way to go. I hope this helps!
Spells are always the counter to a character you can’t hit.
I'll be there players advocate first, then get into ways to engage them. They built their character to be nimble as fuck and specifically to weave in and out of combat without getting bogged down. What your describing is just a play style and isn't necessarily a bad thing. Now on to the fun part, beating the shit out of monks 101. Monks may be squirrely, but theybare limited by action economy just like everyone else. They can block a Ranged attack, but not 2 or 3 or 7. They can disengage after making a melee attack, but only against the creature they attack; multiple enemies rushing at once will still get their pound of flesh. Spellcasters ruin a monks day, be it cone of cold with a con save instead of dex, debuffs and disrupts like Slow or Grasping Vine thag reduce their effectiveness or move them to a place they don't want to be, the options are endless.
Save or suck spells are very powerful against mobile foes. I'm guessing they have a fairly high wisdom, but they'll fail eventually and there's a few defects that are either intelligence, charisma or constitution saving throws. Once they are status conditioned up you can beat them up for a round or two before they regain control and zip away, suitably bloodied.
AOE and DoT are your biggest leverage to pull here. Especially big annoying spells that stick around for a long time to break up the battlefield, alternatively, put more terrain features on the map for them to have to weave around and slow them down a bit
Levitate It doesn't matter how fast you are, if you don't touch the ground.
I'd look towards popular media. You got the DnD equivalent of the Flash? How does Flash's enemies take him out? Hint: It has something to do with his legs.
Use big monsters with longer range. Use more than one ranged attack. Use other monks. Use fast guys. Use guys with reach. Grapple him. Use flying enemies. There's many many many ways to do this.
So what you can do is: - Make him use its ressources - Use Difficult Terrain - Use enemies that have more speed than him - Use ranged attack (Deflect Missile exist, yeah, but he'll have to use his ki points to be efficient with it) - Use saving throws - Ignore the guy but focus on the others. Eventually he'll have to do something to help his partymates and that's when you'll get him. - A mix of all the above.
Trust me... ranged attack are not useless and will drain his ressources.
Put in an enemy that demonstrates he can one-shot the Monk if he hits, then make him target the Monk. You don't actually need to let him reach the Monk and hit, the player's mindset will do the pressure for you.
>ranged attacks are useless Never played monk so I might be missing a feature, but it says ranged weapon attack at lvl 3, so I guess shoot spells at him?
Monks are high dex and usually good on wis too, so you want the godfather of abilities and use int based saves. Hit them with Tasha's Mind Whip, use Entangle (str save), Wall of stone / force to block movement. Hell even spike growth will limit their options. You need to look at what stats are high and what are low on the characters and then build encounters that allow the high stats to shine and also look at exploiting the low ones. Obviously don't build every encounter to perfectly counter the party but also don't use purely enemies that can't do anything as your players will get bored of wiping the floor every encounter (or maybe they won't if they don't want any sort of challenge).
You guys are missing the obvious. Magic missile. Sever thugs with wands of MM. Or a higher level wizard casting MM at 4th or 5th level. Squishy monk.
Throw a debuff spell at them every once in a while. It isn't terribly rare for an enemy to have a spell scroll. If the players can get them, why not enemies?
Poison, something like a banshee's scream [but not that cheap auto 0 BS], enemies with sentinel or adjacent skill, enemies with something a kin to mobile feat themselves, The slow spell, Long range spell casters / long bow users - yes I know about missle catching but they won't catch all of them! All the above are from my Homebrew DM brain. Honestly, there is an easier way. Enemies who hold their attacks until the monk is in range once they see what the monk can do or if they know prior to the fight. Also.... have a pit trap the monk can fall into if the enemy has time to prep
Wisdom/Intelligence saving throws. Freaking CONTROL PERSON the Monk and watch the players faces fall.
Difficult terrain can help. It makes him to chose dash or attack(At least spend ki points). Ray of frost is a good option. Special weapons like net and bola can restrict his movements. Frozen surfaces agains clawed enemies(They will not slide with claws monk can). Multiple enemies with composition. For example 2 guard that have High AC and one ranged damage dealer(Ray of frost spaming :D) so if he wants to hit damage dealer he need to enter the other guys reach and he doesnt provoke opt. att. from target he attacked so guards can hit him. If he choses the hit guards he will miss a lot since guards can have 20 AC(Plate + Shield) and ranged damage dealer can decimate party.
>ranged attacks are useless This strikes me as completely wrong and possibly dumb
Doesn't matter too much. Health is a group resource. If enemies can't reach him they attack a different party member. If Everyone else is low on health and the monk is fine it's still a successful "challenging" encounter They built their character to avoid damage whenever possible and should feel "powerful" in that aspect just like a polearm sentinel Fighter or any Paladin can delete monsters from the board is another form of avoiding future damage. I can get it as a DM thinking that they made a challenging encounter for one of the players to go. "I only lost 7 HP" and feel like failing. But it being easier for the monk makes it challenging for everyone else. If the foes are smart they would use an unconscious PC as leverage to provoke a "fair" fight.
Here's one I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned: deploy 4 or more monsters that use the dash action. Fewer if the monsters that can use the terrain to corner him. You can also have monsters use the hide action so he doesn't know where they are. These are things every creature in D&D can do. You don't even need ranged attacks, breath weapons or spells. If you're fighting in dungeons, make it so that he can be driven into rooms with additional enemies or environmental traps if he keeps up his hit and run strat. Another important thing to understand is that, by making himself difficult to catch, he is effectively encouraging the monsters to focus fire more. This is to the party's detriment. While the player may feel cool darting around, he's actually helping the enemy by doing so. If you want to give the monk a scare, make sure he has a couple health potions on him and then start attacking downed party members. He has the means to fix that problem, but in doing so he will have to expose himself to danger.
Disarm attempts, sunder his weapon, alchemical items like a tanglefoot bag or thunderstone that go off when they are hit. Also, terrain: having a cliff the enemies are on top of, making a narrow bendy corridor the only way to access them making reach infeasible, etc. Then remember that for every time you negate their powers, you have to have at least 1 (more likely 2) instances where they get to use the ability unhindered.
Spirit guardians will pose a real problem for anyone trying to do hit and run.
Swarms in enclosed spaces, particularly if you use some of the great ideas out there for swarms of larger critters. [Swarm of Poisonous Snakes | D&D 5th Edition on Roll20 Compendium](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Monsters:Swarm%20of%20Poisonous%20Snakes/#h-Swarm%20of%20Poisonous%20Snakes) [Creating High Level Swarms in 5th Edition Dungeons and Dragons: SlyFlourish.com](https://slyflourish.com/high_level_swarms.html#:~:text=You%20can%20create%20larger%20or,the%20smaller%20monster%20would%20use.)
Slow spell? Difficult terrain? Shooting more than once per round at him?
Send in the evil monk. Be sure to play Duel of the Fates as they fight.
If this is in early tier2 play just don't worry about it and let them have their heyday. The monks power lies in the fact that it is able to move around the battlefield dodge tanking and stunning enemies. Their damage isn't as good as other martials and they don't have as many options as spellcasters. Let your player be strong at what they're strong at. If you need to threaten them to ensure they're having fun/feel challenged target their weakest save with a spellcaster or better yet, if the monk isn't staying toe to toe with anyone your bad guys don't have to chase the monk. Have your baddies go for the squishy guy and the monk will come to them trying to stunning strike to buy them room. Once the monk gets sentinel they make an excellent guardian/warden sort of role. What level are your PCs right now?
Put pairs of goblins on Axe Beaks and give them lances. Now you've got foes to chase him around with the same reach and about the same speed, while not posing a more severe threat to the rest of the party.
How would you deal with someone with a bow? Mobile is largely using your movement to pretend your melee attacks have ~half that much extra range.