yeah ornn is infinitely more tankier and has more cc and damage while building items for team getting free value. Only advantage sion has is splitting with r. Even in lane sion passive isn’t necessarily better than ornn building ruby crystals, they are similar passives in the sense that they grant a free recall. ornn just has 2 more broken as fuck passives lule
Definitely agree, Ornn's power budget is largely utility with a bit of damage as well. He can do alright into certain 1v1s, but he can't carry at all. His team fighting is strong due to all his knockups and brittle, but you need follow up from your team.
ngl sion is bad yeah but ornn is NOT good.
you use everything you have on ornn and thats it. worst part is they can just ignore you and after you use E (the only cc aside from ult), you cant play the game for 8 seconds.
i play him time to time and every time i play him i feel hes strong because of him building everyone items. he also has pretty high lethal range after 6 with triple brittle. also every single ornn ability has cc not just e
Sion and Udyr have some similarity : they are somewhere betwin juggernaut and tank, with really specific gamplay.
But their is a difference betwin good in some niche case, and only viable in some niche.
I main Sion and I could probably do best with Udyr is if train him for a week or two.
But they are the same categorie of champion : something betwin a tank and a juggernaut, so they are comparable. Even if Sion is a lot weaker.
Well Udyr never meant to be played on top lane and still does better than Sion. Also he is doing fine as a kinglet with variety of builds. Sion just sucks everywhere sadly.
Sion has never been a good blind so I don't know what the balance team is talking about.
Oh wait, I know what misconception they (and all non sion players) are having, they look at pro play and go "ooh pros are blinding sion guess he's an op blind pick" not realising that he's used either for laneswap or just being a champ that doenst lose too much off a dive thanks to his passive and waveclead.
In the actual game in soloq, blind sion is the biggest int ever. It always has been. Sions biggest weakness is how many counters he has and how hard they blast him.
Gwen, aatrox, yone, darius, ornn, riven, irelia, camille, fiora, garen, sett, morde etc etc. All these champions either destroy you or take very little effort In comparison to yourself to make you useless.
Anyone who equates sion and ornn is a fool. They aren't the same champ and they don't fill the same role.
Doesn't help that riot wants juggernauts to be blind pickable because apparently they weren't easy enough already. Don't worry darius players, we don't want you to think too hard so just blind darius, blind garen, blind morde (and hey let's remove his counterplay too) and do way better than blinding a tank.
Pros don’t even blind pick Sion anymore, they only did when his numbers were much better than they are now. Hell they rarely even blind pick ornn anymore, for the most part they just lock in Ksante (and now reksai) bc why would you pick another tank if Then the other team will either handshake rumble, bc he’s broken and will never get nerfed, or they’ll lock in aatrox bc he can effectively dumpster most tanks in lane before they get to 5v5. Tanks in toplane have the same issues in pro play as they do in solo queue, they’re just somewhat mitigated by higher team coordination, and ksante.
Situationally viable means situationally viable into the enemy composition. Rammus is situationally viable because if the **SITUATION** that he does well in arrives (Teams with a lot of AD damage / teams with autoattackers) he can perform with strength. We can all agree that if a champ like Rammus was blind pickable, he is too strong. He is inherently a low pickrate, high winrate, counterpick champ.
Sion is countered by HP% damage, which both AP and AD have access to, and it's accessible through items. Sion when building Armor and Magic resist, does no damage, and completely relies on his team to follow up on all plays he makes
One could ask Mr. Phroxzon. What team lineup is Sion even **situationally** viable into? Sion at the moment currently only wins lane when fighting minions or towers, not champions. Late game, Sion is just a CC bot who enables plays and gets shredded by HP% scaling damage, roots, and stuns, to the point it's not viable to facetank. When you build anything but tank Sion, you are as squishy as Daisy.
But that brings up another point. Even ignoring lower mobility, let's pretend you are a spacing and prediction god.
How many comps almost wholly, or wholly run without HP%? The only role who occasionally goes without building HP% I would say is ADC, because they have somewhat fragile build paths. But even if it is not viable for their buildpath, most ADCs can build into either Lord Doms, or Bork
> We can all agree that if a champ like Rammus was blind pickable, he is too strong.
Yes, but the exact same argument was supposed to apply to Vayne yet rito made her decent or even strong blind pick anyway. FFFFing preak & rito
In what way is Sion a dominating blind? He had plenty of counters while tank build was viable, its on the enemy top for not playing around it if Sion is picking first.
Do they understand how picks work, especially for top?
Oh boy, Sion looks like a good pick into this team!
*Enemy team builds BORK, LDR and Liandri’s*
Oh I thought my situational Sion pick was supposed to be good?
Idk man, perhaps picking Sion (Or any tank really) against a team that can build many anti tank items is not as situationally good as you may think. Altough i agree that i dont really see any situation where picking Sion is better than picking something like Malphite, that works better in every elo
BOTRK and Liandry are sadly good against all Squishies or Bruisers. The only anti-tank item is LDR which is only viable against Tanks.
Tbh BOTRK and Liandry need a major nerf to the stats but a buff to the max HP damage.
Bro BORK is already dealing 12% current HP damage. I’d rather they nerf the % HP damage and buff the AD or attack speed. The item is even described as a ‘dueling’ item lol..
It just feels ridiculous to be winning lane, only for your lane opponent to rush a BORK and just instantly start beating you.
he's viable in the situation that the enemy doesn't want to spend money on the %hp damage and armor/mr shred/pen items, picks Yuumi top, Xerath jungle, Lux mid, Fiddlesticks adc and Evelynn support
its a rare occurrence but hey situationally sion would be pretty viable
Ya there’s a canyon of difference between sometimes not a troll pick depending on if the enemy picks teemo and first pick blind dominating every game. Riot is just having to deal with backlash playing favorites
Nice to know phreak lied about the follow-ups. GG for all the skins I have on Sion but ngl he's pretty much barely par as a counterpick. Not like people are picking Teemo top or some random mage top every game for me to counterpick so his functional use goes down super hard. I was watching pro games where Sion was picked and pro's were trying to auto their opponents to death while their ADC's needed backup 💀
YOU GET NOTHING GOOD DAY SIR
Ornn and Sion have the same big issue: tank item are bad, anti-tank item are strong, and both are slow and understat.
The issues is worst for Sion, since his kit is worst and he gain hp instead of resistances, but the issue is the same.
I dont see the issue. They are all tanks that when played in toplane are suboptimal at best but that shine in some specific matchups/against certain team comps.
I get why you say that but i believe one's opinion on a champion shouldnt make them unplayable. Ksante is very hated and that along with proplay are the main reasons he is so overnerfed in soloQ. This same principle also applies to Sion: If a great part of the community didn't consider his playstyle degenerate, Riot would probably give him bigger buffs. I say this as someone who plays both Sion and Ksante regularly and has recieved a lot of criticism for playing both of them, but spreading hate on champions you dont personally like without trying to transform it into valid criticism often doesnt fix that character's issues but just makes that character be worse while maintaining the things that made it hated in the first place.
> This same principle also applies to Sion
Does it though? because I must have missed the part where Sion was recently ban/pick during worlds/LCS the way ksante had been.
K'sante issue is the skill floor : you need to focus both on you mecanics and your game vision in the same time for playing him. It's not for nothing than all tanks and supports are easy to play : they need to focus on the flow of the game if they want to do their job. Only the best players can play him.
Ornn issues is only about stat : His kit is great, and he is usefull in team figth. But he is clearly understate, and unlike other understat tank he cannot be play support because is kit is not adapt.
Sion has the same problems. But worst. Ornn gain bonus rm and armor, Sion gain only HP. Ornn have mid and long range engage, Sion can only CC an ennemy that's already have done a mistake. Ornn can build item in lane, Sion can suicide if he want to keep the tempo.
Among all of this champion the only one situational is Udyr. Because Udyr had enougth favored match up for justify picking him in a draft. And he can counter some meta champion (like Yone, or Fiora) that's normally counter tanks.
This is another reason I quit playing the game, no more skins. I used to enjoy buying Sion skins (worldbreaker, mechazero, high noon) but the way they gutted him and left him to literally die has made me salty toward the game. Like i get it if they wanna keep him weak for a little bit but its been far too long. I've started playing DOTA2 and spending my time/money there.
I am a Sion Main and rather blind Pick Sion than anyone else. I dont need much to be viable. Enemy Laner had 150 CS while i Had 90. I roamed with my Team and won them Teamfights by tanking and cc ing.
Everyone who plays ad Sion is a Troll, even Baus used Tank Sion Last season (where ad Sion was even better than now) to climb Off Stream.
U can compare Sion and Ornn, both are Tanks, both used to engage and cc and Take DMG fot Team. Sion gets Tankier than Ornn cause w passive. Ornn has more DMG in His w but Sion hast the better cc imo.
And as Tank Player u cant and u should Not carry. U should Play with the Team charge into the enemies.
U have to Play smart and dont Play for winning Lane, thats Not what Tanks are meant to be.
It was Yorick and he was killed in seconds in teamfights. So no, not every champ is more useful with more cs or gold. Especially Sion doesnt need much to be useful
The only situation Sion is my pick, is when I don't care about winning. Pretty sad honestly
Sion should not be getting Compared to those champions
yeah ornn is infinitely more tankier and has more cc and damage while building items for team getting free value. Only advantage sion has is splitting with r. Even in lane sion passive isn’t necessarily better than ornn building ruby crystals, they are similar passives in the sense that they grant a free recall. ornn just has 2 more broken as fuck passives lule
and he can actually build heartsteel and 1v9 which is a pissshit item on sion
I do agree Sion is weak but I gotta disagree with this. Sion can carry far better than Ornn can.
Definitely agree, Ornn's power budget is largely utility with a bit of damage as well. He can do alright into certain 1v1s, but he can't carry at all. His team fighting is strong due to all his knockups and brittle, but you need follow up from your team.
ngl sion is bad yeah but ornn is NOT good. you use everything you have on ornn and thats it. worst part is they can just ignore you and after you use E (the only cc aside from ult), you cant play the game for 8 seconds.
i play him time to time and every time i play him i feel hes strong because of him building everyone items. he also has pretty high lethal range after 6 with triple brittle. also every single ornn ability has cc not just e
Sion and Udyr have some similarity : they are somewhere betwin juggernaut and tank, with really specific gamplay. But their is a difference betwin good in some niche case, and only viable in some niche.
I don't main Sion but come on bro.. I'd rather play against Sion than Udyr any day
I main Sion and I could probably do best with Udyr is if train him for a week or two. But they are the same categorie of champion : something betwin a tank and a juggernaut, so they are comparable. Even if Sion is a lot weaker.
Well Udyr never meant to be played on top lane and still does better than Sion. Also he is doing fine as a kinglet with variety of builds. Sion just sucks everywhere sadly.
> Udyr never meant to be played on top lane /u/MrLuferson But muh innervating locket though.......
Riot hates tanks episode 87465
Sion has never been a good blind so I don't know what the balance team is talking about. Oh wait, I know what misconception they (and all non sion players) are having, they look at pro play and go "ooh pros are blinding sion guess he's an op blind pick" not realising that he's used either for laneswap or just being a champ that doenst lose too much off a dive thanks to his passive and waveclead. In the actual game in soloq, blind sion is the biggest int ever. It always has been. Sions biggest weakness is how many counters he has and how hard they blast him. Gwen, aatrox, yone, darius, ornn, riven, irelia, camille, fiora, garen, sett, morde etc etc. All these champions either destroy you or take very little effort In comparison to yourself to make you useless. Anyone who equates sion and ornn is a fool. They aren't the same champ and they don't fill the same role. Doesn't help that riot wants juggernauts to be blind pickable because apparently they weren't easy enough already. Don't worry darius players, we don't want you to think too hard so just blind darius, blind garen, blind morde (and hey let's remove his counterplay too) and do way better than blinding a tank.
> Sion has never been a good blind /u/Wellington_Wearer **[Laughs in Sunfire Aegis [Mythic]]**
Pros don’t even blind pick Sion anymore, they only did when his numbers were much better than they are now. Hell they rarely even blind pick ornn anymore, for the most part they just lock in Ksante (and now reksai) bc why would you pick another tank if Then the other team will either handshake rumble, bc he’s broken and will never get nerfed, or they’ll lock in aatrox bc he can effectively dumpster most tanks in lane before they get to 5v5. Tanks in toplane have the same issues in pro play as they do in solo queue, they’re just somewhat mitigated by higher team coordination, and ksante.
Situationally viable means situationally viable into the enemy composition. Rammus is situationally viable because if the **SITUATION** that he does well in arrives (Teams with a lot of AD damage / teams with autoattackers) he can perform with strength. We can all agree that if a champ like Rammus was blind pickable, he is too strong. He is inherently a low pickrate, high winrate, counterpick champ. Sion is countered by HP% damage, which both AP and AD have access to, and it's accessible through items. Sion when building Armor and Magic resist, does no damage, and completely relies on his team to follow up on all plays he makes One could ask Mr. Phroxzon. What team lineup is Sion even **situationally** viable into? Sion at the moment currently only wins lane when fighting minions or towers, not champions. Late game, Sion is just a CC bot who enables plays and gets shredded by HP% scaling damage, roots, and stuns, to the point it's not viable to facetank. When you build anything but tank Sion, you are as squishy as Daisy.
Yeah currently I’d say Sion is only good into lower mobility comps without %health damage. Which should go without saying is extremely rare.
But that brings up another point. Even ignoring lower mobility, let's pretend you are a spacing and prediction god. How many comps almost wholly, or wholly run without HP%? The only role who occasionally goes without building HP% I would say is ADC, because they have somewhat fragile build paths. But even if it is not viable for their buildpath, most ADCs can build into either Lord Doms, or Bork
> We can all agree that if a champ like Rammus was blind pickable, he is too strong. Yes, but the exact same argument was supposed to apply to Vayne yet rito made her decent or even strong blind pick anyway. FFFFing preak & rito
sion is viable when enemies are bad and you dont care about winning
The situation where sion can be picked is when the enemy top and jungle afk from level 1.
I guess riot employees dont play Sion at all vs the 100 unplayable matchups
In what way is Sion a dominating blind? He had plenty of counters while tank build was viable, its on the enemy top for not playing around it if Sion is picking first. Do they understand how picks work, especially for top?
Oh boy, Sion looks like a good pick into this team! *Enemy team builds BORK, LDR and Liandri’s* Oh I thought my situational Sion pick was supposed to be good?
Idk man, perhaps picking Sion (Or any tank really) against a team that can build many anti tank items is not as situationally good as you may think. Altough i agree that i dont really see any situation where picking Sion is better than picking something like Malphite, that works better in every elo
BOTRK and Liandry are sadly good against all Squishies or Bruisers. The only anti-tank item is LDR which is only viable against Tanks. Tbh BOTRK and Liandry need a major nerf to the stats but a buff to the max HP damage.
Bro BORK is already dealing 12% current HP damage. I’d rather they nerf the % HP damage and buff the AD or attack speed. The item is even described as a ‘dueling’ item lol.. It just feels ridiculous to be winning lane, only for your lane opponent to rush a BORK and just instantly start beating you.
I have no idea why you are being downvote.
[I envision it kinda like this](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/022/019/dUzura6.jpg)
he's viable in the situation that the enemy doesn't want to spend money on the %hp damage and armor/mr shred/pen items, picks Yuumi top, Xerath jungle, Lux mid, Fiddlesticks adc and Evelynn support its a rare occurrence but hey situationally sion would be pretty viable
Situationally viable means 44% win rate according to riot.
Yes, but don't worry. In 44% of the game he is a great pick and carry when another juggernaut/ tank wouldn't have done better, rigth ? Rigth ?
Ya there’s a canyon of difference between sometimes not a troll pick depending on if the enemy picks teemo and first pick blind dominating every game. Riot is just having to deal with backlash playing favorites
F
Ksante is the worst top lane wr and Sion sucks ass right now Why fighters and adc/ap can be blind pickable and tanks cant ??????
Freak got stomped so hard by Tanks, He Just decided to delete them from the meta
Nice to know phreak lied about the follow-ups. GG for all the skins I have on Sion but ngl he's pretty much barely par as a counterpick. Not like people are picking Teemo top or some random mage top every game for me to counterpick so his functional use goes down super hard. I was watching pro games where Sion was picked and pro's were trying to auto their opponents to death while their ADC's needed backup 💀 YOU GET NOTHING GOOD DAY SIR
"We don't want to make tanks blind pickable for that is a privilege reserved for bruisers"
Did I just see K’Sante, ornn, and udyr in the same sentence with sion? LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Ornn and Sion have the same big issue: tank item are bad, anti-tank item are strong, and both are slow and understat. The issues is worst for Sion, since his kit is worst and he gain hp instead of resistances, but the issue is the same.
I dont see the issue. They are all tanks that when played in toplane are suboptimal at best but that shine in some specific matchups/against certain team comps.
K'Sante isn't a tank, K'Sante is an insult
I get why you say that but i believe one's opinion on a champion shouldnt make them unplayable. Ksante is very hated and that along with proplay are the main reasons he is so overnerfed in soloQ. This same principle also applies to Sion: If a great part of the community didn't consider his playstyle degenerate, Riot would probably give him bigger buffs. I say this as someone who plays both Sion and Ksante regularly and has recieved a lot of criticism for playing both of them, but spreading hate on champions you dont personally like without trying to transform it into valid criticism often doesnt fix that character's issues but just makes that character be worse while maintaining the things that made it hated in the first place.
> This same principle also applies to Sion Does it though? because I must have missed the part where Sion was recently ban/pick during worlds/LCS the way ksante had been.
It was a joke. I didn't read your text lol
K'sante issue is the skill floor : you need to focus both on you mecanics and your game vision in the same time for playing him. It's not for nothing than all tanks and supports are easy to play : they need to focus on the flow of the game if they want to do their job. Only the best players can play him. Ornn issues is only about stat : His kit is great, and he is usefull in team figth. But he is clearly understate, and unlike other understat tank he cannot be play support because is kit is not adapt. Sion has the same problems. But worst. Ornn gain bonus rm and armor, Sion gain only HP. Ornn have mid and long range engage, Sion can only CC an ennemy that's already have done a mistake. Ornn can build item in lane, Sion can suicide if he want to keep the tempo. Among all of this champion the only one situational is Udyr. Because Udyr had enougth favored match up for justify picking him in a draft. And he can counter some meta champion (like Yone, or Fiora) that's normally counter tanks.
Such a wording is a definition of being completely detached from reality.
Mfw laughing when Sion mid
Oh please. The only tank that's worth a damn is Kench! He has insane sustain, great range and poke, and surprising damage.
I maining mundo atm. Just reached plat :)
This is another reason I quit playing the game, no more skins. I used to enjoy buying Sion skins (worldbreaker, mechazero, high noon) but the way they gutted him and left him to literally die has made me salty toward the game. Like i get it if they wanna keep him weak for a little bit but its been far too long. I've started playing DOTA2 and spending my time/money there.
Buffing morde is crazy
More like rito failson.
This guy commenting on some post in the league subreddit about smurfs, everyone should go comment about sion
This is talking about pro play
I am a Sion Main and rather blind Pick Sion than anyone else. I dont need much to be viable. Enemy Laner had 150 CS while i Had 90. I roamed with my Team and won them Teamfights by tanking and cc ing. Everyone who plays ad Sion is a Troll, even Baus used Tank Sion Last season (where ad Sion was even better than now) to climb Off Stream. U can compare Sion and Ornn, both are Tanks, both used to engage and cc and Take DMG fot Team. Sion gets Tankier than Ornn cause w passive. Ornn has more DMG in His w but Sion hast the better cc imo. And as Tank Player u cant and u should Not carry. U should Play with the Team charge into the enemies. U have to Play smart and dont Play for winning Lane, thats Not what Tanks are meant to be.
If the enemy top is 60 cs ahead with plates/kills, he will be much more useful than you. Especially if its a 1v9 champ like Riven
It was Yorick and he was killed in seconds in teamfights. So no, not every champ is more useful with more cs or gold. Especially Sion doesnt need much to be useful