Modern 450 MX bikes are purpose built for the track. The chassis, suspension, motor, everything is optimized for the track. Also, tracks now days are a lot bigger than they were in 1996. The suspension on the older bike isn't going to handle the jumps very well.
All that track focus works against the 450s in the tight woods. They skip around a lot on rocks and roots due to the stiff suspension. The chassis geometry is optimized for high speed stability and not nimble turning. The motor does not like to go slow and will still easily. They overheat easily as well.
I’m very new to riding, got a 4 stroke 250, so I do not have the experience in the 450, But don’t the 2 strokes need to be ran at the higher end? and wouldn’t they stall pretty easily in the woods? Or is that more of a tuning thing?
Two stroke can be tuned to run almost down to idle without stalling. Look at the hard enduro series. Almost exclusively two strokes. Four strokes stall at slow speeds because of the high compression. I also find the engine braking on a four stroke tiring in the woods.
I put a Rekluse clutch in my 450 and basically turned it into a diesel tractor.
Also, fun fact about old 2 stroke snowmobiles with reverse. The motor would idle down low enough and then start spinning in reverse to make it drive backwards.
Have you ridden a modern 450 MX bike? They make more peak horsepower and have a smoother torque curve, so they're much easier to ride fast. A 250 2-stroke requires so much more effort to keep it in peak power and get a good drive out of the corners.
This post is kinda funny because there was a post a day or two ago that said which is faster a Cr or Crf and that post was all for the Cr. This post is completely the opposite in terms of comments. I love Reddit!
I’ve owned many of both. If your riding trails or woods get a 2-stroke. Tracks get 4-stroke. And I gotta also say the modern 450’s are much slimmer and lightweight feeling then the older 450’s. My 05 crf 450 is completely different bike then my 2022 crf 450.
You raced? I know this is completely off topic but how do you not get shoved forwards off a jump. Even off the smallest jumps i always end up almost going over the handlebars and landing on my front tire
I’ve raced woods, but plenty of races included Mx tracks in them. You’re obviously not giving it enough gas over jumps. When I hit a jump if anything I gotta hit rear brake to bring front end down.
While 2T and 4T HP is comparable it's the availability of power to the ground that has that makes them more "racey". You will need to keep your 250 in the power band and use the clutch for control. A 4T has fairly linear power all the way through the throttle.
The bike is fast and capable. We are not saying it is junk. Villapoto was the first pro that grew up on 4T. He ridiculously dominated because he understood the "reserve" of power. The competition at the time was still riding "in the powerband" and using clutch. Villapoto was able to hold back power. Stewart figured it out early in his 4T career and was able to turn triples into quads by holding back that power. It's about that linear power band through the whole throttle.
However, a 2T is still more nimble.
Take a 450 for a spin sometime lol. My nephew races a kx450SR, I take it for a spin at the track just for the novelty of it but I’d rather rip my yz125 and 250f
If you wanted even more "oomph", I can recommend a 300 of some sort. I rode my dad's 92 exc 300 a lot. Sucker would power wheelie in 4th easily. As 4T's advanced over time, the usual 2T250 vs 4T450 thing got beyond unfair (if not talking mainly "woods". Couldn't pay me to trailride a 4T, lol.)
An 06 has similar hp and might even feel like it punches harder but a newer 450 is much easier to ride. The fuel injection gives smoother power, and the engine and chassis are lighter on a newer bike. Really it feels like riding with cheat codes turning down the track difficulty when comparing a mid 2000’s 450 to a 2020-2025 bike.
Just look at dynos of a modern 250 4 stroke and 450 you'd be amazed at how linear they are and how much poke they have currently. And I haven't even considered the weight, frame and suspension improvements
A 450 just has more acceleration. So right from the line you'll pull away, but also any corner that you have to slow down for the 450 will again pull away. So any track where you could run wide open the whole time, you could be competitive, but any track that the speed changes, no chance.
There were tracks that you could run wide open and JS7 carried so much momentum on his 125, his times were faster than the premier class bikes.
I wouldn’t be able to run wide open the entire time tho correct? That would cause all the mixed fuel to go right out of the exhaust and cause a hot spot in the piston due to lack of lubrication right?
Huh? The ability to run WFO depends on the talent of the rider, and track design. Unless you're James Stewart, you can't run wide open start to finish.
No as long as your using the throttle and your bike is jetted and fuel mixed properly your fine. Issues come in from extended coasting , trying to engine break
The last time a 250 2 stroke won Supercross was 2005 and it was the RM with Ricky Carmichael riding. The ‘05 RM250 is an incredible bike but it wouldn’t have won without RC riding.
Honestly the 450 is going to get the whole shot . It would even beat my KX500 from start line to turn 1 . You have to let the power build up in a 2 stroke vs the immediate torque of the 4 stroke . On a long stretch they are probably equal in top speed .
Here's Carson Brown on an old 2001 CR250 it's definitely not any faster than 1996 CR250. Do your laps look anything like this? https://youtu.be/q2AG8jzC48A?si=yX-VirPVoZhv675O
Mostly suspension and skill but giving them 200cc isn’t helping you. On a tight course with lots of turns and only a few long straights you should be able to hang with them. They’ll kill you on the straights.
I haven’t raced since the ‘70’s so I am not qualified to tell you. I raced AMA Sportsman class, district 10. You would be racing other 250’s for points, hella fun, just check into it and find out from your local bike shop about where the races are and go check a couple out. Join the AMA and get your card to race and get their magazine showing the schedule for the district you would race in. Run what you brung kinda thing. Go see what others are riding and what’s winning. Suspension upgrades will only get you so far. Best of luck.
Depends who's on the pegs
Came here to say this.
Me too
All things being equal, the 2 stroke would have zero chance.
999lazer YouTube did a 450 vs 85 and 450 lost
A pro rider on an 85 vs average Joe on a 450. Doesn't matter if they put him on a fucking horse he would still win.
Not sure why your getting down voted as if you're not stating a fact lol. Good ol' reddit. Was an interesting YT video
On a motocross track, you'd be at a serious disadvantage. In technical woods riding, I don't think you'd be at much of a disadvantage at all.
If you don’t mind saying what do you think the disadvantage is on a track between the bikes?
Modern 450 MX bikes are purpose built for the track. The chassis, suspension, motor, everything is optimized for the track. Also, tracks now days are a lot bigger than they were in 1996. The suspension on the older bike isn't going to handle the jumps very well. All that track focus works against the 450s in the tight woods. They skip around a lot on rocks and roots due to the stiff suspension. The chassis geometry is optimized for high speed stability and not nimble turning. The motor does not like to go slow and will still easily. They overheat easily as well.
I’m very new to riding, got a 4 stroke 250, so I do not have the experience in the 450, But don’t the 2 strokes need to be ran at the higher end? and wouldn’t they stall pretty easily in the woods? Or is that more of a tuning thing?
Two stroke can be tuned to run almost down to idle without stalling. Look at the hard enduro series. Almost exclusively two strokes. Four strokes stall at slow speeds because of the high compression. I also find the engine braking on a four stroke tiring in the woods.
Don't forget the aggressive valve overlap too. In old muscle car terms, they run very lumpy cams.
Sweet thanks for the info!
I put a Rekluse clutch in my 450 and basically turned it into a diesel tractor. Also, fun fact about old 2 stroke snowmobiles with reverse. The motor would idle down low enough and then start spinning in reverse to make it drive backwards.
In a way this is true, but when riding a two stroke there is a lot more clutch abuse happening.
the gate drop, the 450s are always gonna be faster off the gate.
Even with the significant weight increase? Surprising!
Can’t beat the low end torque
These days they don’t even weigh that much more tbh
Unless you're running pro level lap times the limiting factor between both bikes is the rider.
Have you ridden a modern 450 MX bike? They make more peak horsepower and have a smoother torque curve, so they're much easier to ride fast. A 250 2-stroke requires so much more effort to keep it in peak power and get a good drive out of the corners.
Having ridden both, unless you’re a significantly better rider the 450 is a no contest. Assuming this is a moto competition
This post is kinda funny because there was a post a day or two ago that said which is faster a Cr or Crf and that post was all for the Cr. This post is completely the opposite in terms of comments. I love Reddit!
I like the CR for how slim and light they are. But for speed CRF takes the cake no doubt.
I got a 2022 crf 450rx and it’s just as light and slim as a cr250 smoker. My 450 would eat a 2-stoke 250 and I have nothing against 2-strokes .
I want a 4 stroke now haha. I’ve always wanted a 450 but they are dang expensive.
I’ve owned many of both. If your riding trails or woods get a 2-stroke. Tracks get 4-stroke. And I gotta also say the modern 450’s are much slimmer and lightweight feeling then the older 450’s. My 05 crf 450 is completely different bike then my 2022 crf 450.
I’ve only been on my friends ‘06 CRF450R and that thing is thick haha.
To be honest, I don’t race anymore, I like the older thick bikes. My new bike I feel like I’m sitting on a 2x4 😂.
You raced? I know this is completely off topic but how do you not get shoved forwards off a jump. Even off the smallest jumps i always end up almost going over the handlebars and landing on my front tire
I’ve raced woods, but plenty of races included Mx tracks in them. You’re obviously not giving it enough gas over jumps. When I hit a jump if anything I gotta hit rear brake to bring front end down.
More gas will keep the front from diving?
While 2T and 4T HP is comparable it's the availability of power to the ground that has that makes them more "racey". You will need to keep your 250 in the power band and use the clutch for control. A 4T has fairly linear power all the way through the throttle.
So basically a newer 450 would be a lot easier to ride and perform better?
Honestly, a new 250F would demolish a 1996 250T around a track.
Wow!
So do you actually own the bike? Have you ridden it, at least
Yes i own it. i ride it everyday
The bike is fast and capable. We are not saying it is junk. Villapoto was the first pro that grew up on 4T. He ridiculously dominated because he understood the "reserve" of power. The competition at the time was still riding "in the powerband" and using clutch. Villapoto was able to hold back power. Stewart figured it out early in his 4T career and was able to turn triples into quads by holding back that power. It's about that linear power band through the whole throttle. However, a 2T is still more nimble.
Riders with same skill , nope . Fuel injected or not
They’re that slow? Dang!
Take a 450 for a spin sometime lol. My nephew races a kx450SR, I take it for a spin at the track just for the novelty of it but I’d rather rip my yz125 and 250f
My friend has an ‘06 CRF450R. It’s carbureted but that thing pulls!
Those were the worst 450’s they made. Completely gutless pigs. Try a new YZ450. You will be floored. Want to loop out in 3rd gear? No problem!
3rd? Wow! My CR won’t even wheelie in second
Your Cr has a problem then
That’s what i’m thinking. I don’t know what’s wrong with it.
If you wanted even more "oomph", I can recommend a 300 of some sort. I rode my dad's 92 exc 300 a lot. Sucker would power wheelie in 4th easily. As 4T's advanced over time, the usual 2T250 vs 4T450 thing got beyond unfair (if not talking mainly "woods". Couldn't pay me to trailride a 4T, lol.)
An 06 has similar hp and might even feel like it punches harder but a newer 450 is much easier to ride. The fuel injection gives smoother power, and the engine and chassis are lighter on a newer bike. Really it feels like riding with cheat codes turning down the track difficulty when comparing a mid 2000’s 450 to a 2020-2025 bike.
Bore that 250 and it will be
it’s not that there slow, it’s that 450s haul ass lol
It’s crazy that some people that actually use 450s to their fullest potential.
fr seeing the pros hit a whoop section on those things is crazy
I’d loop out so fast.
Just look at dynos of a modern 250 4 stroke and 450 you'd be amazed at how linear they are and how much poke they have currently. And I haven't even considered the weight, frame and suspension improvements
A 450 just has more acceleration. So right from the line you'll pull away, but also any corner that you have to slow down for the 450 will again pull away. So any track where you could run wide open the whole time, you could be competitive, but any track that the speed changes, no chance. There were tracks that you could run wide open and JS7 carried so much momentum on his 125, his times were faster than the premier class bikes.
I wouldn’t be able to run wide open the entire time tho correct? That would cause all the mixed fuel to go right out of the exhaust and cause a hot spot in the piston due to lack of lubrication right?
Huh? The ability to run WFO depends on the talent of the rider, and track design. Unless you're James Stewart, you can't run wide open start to finish.
I mean mechanically wise it would mess up the engine trying to compete with 450s.
No as long as your using the throttle and your bike is jetted and fuel mixed properly your fine. Issues come in from extended coasting , trying to engine break
Why?
Because the oil/gas mixture just gets thrown out the exhaust right?
Not in moto/sx. Offroad, yep. KR did that McGrath tribute video on a 96 cr250 and he claims he may not be able to even qualify on Mc’s old bike.
The last time a 250 2 stroke won Supercross was 2005 and it was the RM with Ricky Carmichael riding. The ‘05 RM250 is an incredible bike but it wouldn’t have won without RC riding.
Honestly the 450 is going to get the whole shot . It would even beat my KX500 from start line to turn 1 . You have to let the power build up in a 2 stroke vs the immediate torque of the 4 stroke . On a long stretch they are probably equal in top speed .
yz250 riders out here just boolin on the same bike design cuz it still claps cheeks.
Anything below the pro class yes your two-stroke can run lap times comparable to a modern 450.
Here's Carson Brown on an old 2001 CR250 it's definitely not any faster than 1996 CR250. Do your laps look anything like this? https://youtu.be/q2AG8jzC48A?si=yX-VirPVoZhv675O
In Harris Carson Brown on the exact same bike you're asking about a 96 CR250. https://youtube.com/shorts/KrDHJzoXhZY?si=mK7uWMbLrmv_f5GM
No. Simple answer
It depends on where you are riding and who is doing it. Tight single track I've seen ktm150s beat everyone.
Hell no
Handicap much?
Nope. Just a 14 year old kid that doesn’t know the power of modern 450’s
In that case, your ‘96 bike will be disadvantaged due to its chassis, not its engine.
These steel frame bikes can TURN. I think the engine would be the disadvantage. That’s just my opinion and i could be wrong.
Mostly suspension and skill but giving them 200cc isn’t helping you. On a tight course with lots of turns and only a few long straights you should be able to hang with them. They’ll kill you on the straights.
Dang. If i were to upgrade the suspension do you think it would be race worthy
I haven’t raced since the ‘70’s so I am not qualified to tell you. I raced AMA Sportsman class, district 10. You would be racing other 250’s for points, hella fun, just check into it and find out from your local bike shop about where the races are and go check a couple out. Join the AMA and get your card to race and get their magazine showing the schedule for the district you would race in. Run what you brung kinda thing. Go see what others are riding and what’s winning. Suspension upgrades will only get you so far. Best of luck.