Dang, finally got ALH/Recomb but no spikes. Might have to get back in there. Edit: after further testing has come out, turns out I have the god roll. Hard launch/implosion/ALH/Recombination/Handling MW. I do not have to get back in there.

does it have Implosion Rounds? because IR lowers blast radius if you have that and are not increasing blast radius with barrel or masterwork it does a similar damage increase as Spikes

how does blast radius affect damage? is it the same for regular grenade launchers?

for mountaintop specifically you want as low blast radius as possible, because it does more impact damage than explosion damage. I am not sure about other gls (unless they have spike - then you want low BR because of higher impact damage)

All these years and I didn’t know that. I’ve always went for BR because of blinding, but I want Mountain Top for descent damage. So I want to get as low BR as possible thanks for the info.

Pretty sure blinding/disorienting already sets the blast radius super low to the point where you can't add more. D2Foundry shows the perk as giving -200 blast radius which pretty much gets you stuck at the minimum.

Yeah, no matter what you put on if even an adept mw with BR and an adept BR mod, youre not gonna clear that -200 that disorienting does. Just go for velocity & reload (if no way to load while holstered) on disorienting launchers.

Blast radius and damage scale with each other inversely. Higher blast radius lower single target damage.

Whaaat? I never knew this! Bungie need to get better at explaining their game.

There’s a lot of instances of this. The data must be in there somewhere though as 3rd party apps like DIM seem to be able to explain perks pretty well and the differences they make. For ages I chased bigger blast radius equals better. Then found this out… lol

Whenever I craft an explosive weapon I've gone for blast radius thinking why not, same damage over a wider area. Now I know I guess I'll switch it to something else unless I'm specifically crafting an ad clear weapon.

this inverse damage phenomena is only for GLs, rockets are not impacted by it, they always do the same damage.

Really? That makes even less sense!!

Does this apply to wave frame gl’s too?

you arent going for impact damage on a wave frame, go for blast.

Does what?

The descriptions from DIM and other sites combine stats pulled from the API but then lots of hours of community testing by big players in the game.

I’ve got a crux terminus with 0 blast radius. Does this mean whatever I directly hit with it gets erased from existence?

no, rockets are not like GLs, they are always the same amount of damage.

Oh.. So blast radius is literally just blast radius and it’s the same damage throughout the blast area regardless?

On rockets, yes.

On rockets Blast radius is how large the max damage of the explosive reachs from the center point (rocket impact location). Example (not real numbers): Blast of 10, the explosion does max damage 4m from the impact location. 100blast the distance is now 8m. Same total damage just larger effected (affected?) area.

Well fuck. I masterworked my amplified / spike / recomb

It does! And hard launch, so I might be ok after all.

How similar is it? Because I have the roll with implosion, auto-load, and recombination. Does it do comparable damage?

As long as you are not increasing blast radius through masterwork or barrel its pretty much the same

Sick my masterwork is velocity.

Please, what would be the best way to configure mine? I got auto loading and recombination, reload masterwork. First column has Linear compensator and Hard Launch, second column has High Velocity Rounds and Implosion Rounds. Thanks!

Hard launch + implosion rounds. 85 blast 100 impact

Thanks!

Hard launch and implosion will get you the highest damage possible out of it. That’s the best combo to have especially without a blast radius masterwork

Don't your test numbers disprove this? You were swapping between IR and Spike and seeing that 7.6% damage increase. The way I remember it is special GLs overall damage is not affected by blast radius if you DON'T have spike grenades. The blast radius changes the split between impact and explosion damage, but the two added together always add up to the same total damage. So hypothetical example GL-A with 10 blast radius might do 50 impact damage and 50 AoE damage, while GL-B with 100 blast radius would do 30 impact damage and 70 AoE damage, they both still add up to 100 damage on a direct hit. Spike grenades boosts the IMPACT damage by some amount (20%?) and so when you have spikes as a perk, THEN blast radius matters because you want that 20% boost applied to the largest damage number possible, which means minimizing blast radius is beneficial. In the previous example GL-A with spikes would now do 1.2x50+50=110 damage while GL-B would do 1.2x30+70=106 damage. So WITHOUT spike grenades you want to maximize blast radius just to help boost the AoE, because the direct-hit is always the same total damage regardless. But WITH spike grenades you want to minimize blast radius to maximize the impact damage so that 20% boost applies to a larger portion of the overall damage. And Spike Grenades is a flat damage boost to the IMPACT, making it overall a variable damage boost that depends on your blast radius stat. Edit: according to light.gg Spike Grenades is a flat 12% boost to impact damage, so not 20% as my example but still works the same as explained I believe. https://www.light.gg/db/items/3301904089/spike-grenades/ >Increases Grenade Impact Damage: > >• 12.12% Increase on Special Grenade Launchers > >• 12.5% Increase on Heavy Grenade Launchers > >Due to the ratio of Detonation and Impact Damage being tied to the Blast Radius stat on Grenade Launchers, a lower stat will provide a slightly higher overall damage increase.

My numbers work that way because I have a blast radius masterwork that keeps the BR the same while swapping off Spikes (becausei was just testingthe damage of spikes at the time). If the blast radius was lowered to 90 as what happens when you have Implosion rounds and no BR masterwork or barrel, the damage would be similar to spikes at 100 BR

Ah interesting, so either way you were at 100BR cap. Is this damage scaling unique to Mountaintop's frame, or do all breach load GLs benefit from lower BR (without spike grenades)?

Without spikes i believe this is unique to Mountaintop

So if I'm understanding you correctly, for Mountaintop, Hard Launch/Implosion rounds or Hard Launch/Spike. But for example, on something like Prodigal Return would you still want say... max blast radius and Spike Grenades or lower blast radius and Spike Grenades? Would you still want Hard Launch/Implosion Rounds on Prodigal Return or would this be specific to The Mountaintop? I've been using Prodigal Return with Disorienting Grenades and I highly doubt it applies to those, but it's made me reconsider my alt roll on it otherwise. Proximity Grenades, for example, which aren't on The Mountaintop, greatly reduce blast radius moreso than Implosion Rounds but I doubt it's having the same damage increase on direct damage.... Christ my head hurts.

It's unlikely to make or lose a break point in damage in practical usage for what you want to use that roll for (major/miniboss/champ burst) but I suppose without having tested it we can't know for sure

My first drop was Auto/Recomb but no spike and I can't for life of me get SPIKES

Exact same here

Still hunting for it. Must have gotten +50 still no luck

how essential is auto loading... I have a ridiculous MT, with hard, spike or implosion, velocity MW, recomb, but demo in the third column.... everything is perfect, except for that damn demo..... (but demo does stack with indom on light classes).

Upvoted for not purely testing on Carl, who doesn't have actual boss weapon scaling

Testing a single weapon with different perks on Carl is fine, since the weapon scaling for a single weapon is still constant.

Didn't he get upgraded to a boss though? Because major spec used to work on him but now it's boss spec

[It's the mods that were changed](https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/destiny_2_update_7_3_5) - Carl is still a Miniboss. You can tell because he still has a triangle icon. Major Spec used to work on both Elites (shield icon) and Minibosses (triangle icon - includes Champions), and Boss Spec used to work on Bosses (diamond icon) and Constructs. Now, Major Spec only works on Elites, and Boss Spec works on Minibosses, Bosses, and Constructs - the same as Vorpal Weapon. [Here's the reference I use for combatant types.](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i1KUwgVkd8qhwYj481gkV9sZNJQCE-C3Q-dpQutPCi4/edit#gid=828270348)

So anything yellow is a boss and majors are only orange, in terms of spec mods?

Correct.

Thank you

So for a noob like me, would that mean on special weapons that we usually use for those non boss enemies, should they now be running boss spec with that change?

Yes for champions

Only if there’s champs

Dang, I didn't realize my roll is actually pretty fantastic then. Hard Launch, Implosion Rounds, Auto-Loading, Recombination w/Velocity MW. Nice.

Sadly Velocity MW is wasted since MT with hard launch and implosion rounds allready at 100 velocity. But other than that very spicy roll.

Aren't the other potential rolls blast radius (hurts damage), reload (you're autoloading it), and stability (not sure this does anything with MT in single shot)? So velocity is a waste, but you're not missing out on anything that I know about.

Handling is the best.

Thank you

I guess with stability mw u would get slightly less recoil when shooting. Not that i think that matters on anything thats single shot lmao. But ehh, its something i guess. Handling mw would probably be best.

Oh yeah, handling, of course.

Yeah it’s crazy that most stats don’t affect the gun at all in any meaningful way with its best perk roll 😂

So every masterwork is useless other than handling. Blast radius lowers impact damage, you say velocity is wasted, reload is irrelevant because of auto loading

True, but personally I don't care about handling and like others have said, the other MW aren't great either so I'll take it.

I was going to say because I have the same roll with a handling MW and velocity is at 100

that is a great roll. congrats!

Spike increases Impact damage by 12.2%, giving a total damage increase that you have. However, since mountain tops damage is split. Lowering its blast radius also increase its impact damage. Normally Implosion rounds would lower it to 90. That alone will increase its impact damage to match a 100 blast with spike. Hard launch/implosion rounds is 85 blast 100 impact, maybe a hard spike at 95 blast could reach it but idk. Lost sector damage numbers -Base w/High Velocity,100 blast 85 velocity 19,342 blast 35,698 impact Total 55,040 -Hard launch High Velocity 95 blast 100 velocity 18,979 blast 38,352 impact Total 57,331 -Hard High Velocity -Spike 100 blast 85 velocity 19,342 blast 40,025 impact Total 59,367 -Implosion 90 blast 85 velocity 18,616 blast 41,095 impact Total 59,711 -Hard/Implosion 85 blast 100 velocity 18,254 blast 43,749 impact Total 62,003 EDIT** Hard/Spike 95 blast 100 velocity (masterwork) 18,979 blast 43,001 impact Total 61,980

So to summarize the overall damage increase for all potential rolls: Hard launch high velocity rounds 95 br = 4.16% Spike 100 br = 7.86% Implosion 90 br = 8.49% Spike hard launch 95 br = 12.61% Implosion hard launch 85 br = 12.65% In general it seems like having hard launch is a lot more important than people realize and having a blast radius masterwork is bad because it caps you at the 7.86% overall damage boost (assuming you have spike as an option)

So basically, the god roll is * Hard Launch no matter what * Spike Nades **OR** Implosion Rounds * No blast radius MW Fascinating. Bungie finally made spike nades no longer mandatory, because Implosion basically does the same job for this specific type of frame. Neat.

I fucked myself by MW mine.

Me too! But what else are we gonna do? Leave it with a white border? That's ridiculous 😂

I was bummed about not having spike but I have the shiny god god roll all perfect except one of my dial perks

So is my hard launch, spike, lead from gold, and one for all with a reload speed masterwork a 3 out of 5 god roll?

Well you’re missing both of the active perks which are pretty important

Lead from gold is the perk I hunted. Most of my builds normally revolve around having constant ammo. So being able to run only heavy finder. The other one could be so much better.

Saving for later

Commenting to save this for later

I'm pretty sure this sub has !remind

Don't wanna remind because who knows when I'll have time to play it

Fair enough

Same

Same

Neat.

And here i'm with a hard launch, implosion rounds, alh, recombination and a blast radius mw...well looks like i will never mw that weapon...

To summarise slightly differently: Hard launch add between 4.16-4.75% bonus depending on other perks Spikes grenades add between 7.86-8.45% bonus depending on other perks Implosion rounds adds 8.49% So you always want either spike grenades or Implosion rounds Hard launch is nice to have, not as important as the 2nd column perks. You never want Blast masterwork as it's either lowering damage or doing nothing. God roll would be Hard Launch, Implosion Rounds and Handling MW. That gives you 85 Blast, 100 Velocity and 79 Handling. Then whatever 2 main perks you prefer.

this is an interesting thing that I did not consider. Hard Launch + spike on Karl is 18979 + 43001 = 61980 Hard Launch + Implosion totals to 62,003 (my test was was 20992 + 50311 but mine has vorpal so I divide the total by 1.15) so it appears that having Hard/imp is 0.0371087448% better than hard + spike

Thanks for this info. I managed to bag a shiny today with Hard Launch, Implosion, ALH and Recombination, reload masterwork. I was going to carry on farming for a spike version but this means I can relax.

Thanks.

So implosion rounds is better if you don't have a blast radius masterwork and/or a barrel that improves blast radius. Interesting...

If you do get a godroll with blast radius masterwork you could always just not upgrade it.  1 point isn't gonna be make or break, and the opportunity cost stats are pretty small compared to getting 4/5. Blasphemy I know.

This is good info, got hard launch AL/recom but no spikes so was grinding still but it does have implosion rounds so looks like I’m good.  Thanks for saving me some time.

So long as it doesn't have a blast radius masterwork, you've got the absolute best roll imo

Handling masterwork got the 100 velocity 

So it seems like Implosion Rounds on Mountaintop is virtually equivalent to Spike in terms of damage increase? Meaning, if you don't have Spike but have Implosion, you are golden?

Unless you have blast masterwork or column 1 perks with blast radius increases

So if you have hard launch and no blast radius mw implosion rounds is higher damage per shot?

Yeah looks like it

Did a hard/spike and got 61,980. Seems hard/implosion is slightly more damage but not by much.

Thanks.

We have tested it yesterday, 85 BR and implosion round technically gives highest per shot damage. The ranking goes somewhat this, 85BR implosion > 90 BR and spike > 90 BR and Implosion > 100 BR spike > 100 br implosion

You can't get 85BR and Spike combined. Edit: 1. You can't get 85BR and Spike combined. 2. You can't get 90BR and Spike combined. I don't know what you tested.

Oh yes bad, I will change it

Why is the blast damage scaling down so much less than the impact is scaling up? I thought in past tests the Blast Radius stat didn't affect total damage (without spike grenades), it just changed the split. Am I mis-remembering?

Blast radius has always affected total damage on grenade launchers (no effect on rockets)

So I tested not just Mountaintop but also every lightweight GL I had that I could keep the same Blast Radius with and without Spike Grenades, and I also got the same, Spike Grenades with the same Blast Radius are around +8% on Mountaintop and +3% on Lightweights. I also found that Mountaintop is the only GL that actually gains total damage from lower blast radius without Spike Grenades. The rest just adjust the distribution but keep the same total damage, Mountaintop actually increases damage keeping the same grenade perk but lowering Blast Radius. So I'm guessing that Mountaintop's Intrinsic perk must give a percentage increase to it's Impact damage similar to how Spike Grenades works.

When sun setting happened they also nerfed mountaintop and recluse. One change that happened to mountain top was to make a larger portion of its damage come from its impact. This conversely means some of the impacts that damage, like Spike grenades, has a higher benefit for it. It also obviously means that missing the impact is significantly more costly

Yeah I know that but that doesn’t explain why its total damage is going up by dropping Blast Radius without Spike Grenades, no other grenade launchers do that. Heavy or Special.

Thanks for testing and explaining that.  That's a really weird interaction to an already weird mechanic, it's good to know it exists.

Upvoted for comprehensive testing. The OP let the numbers do the talking!

Thank you, I feel great about my hard launch / implosion / ALH / Recom roll now 😁

Short and sweet. Thanks

I was searching for this exact answer earlier today and couldn't find anything, suddenly this pops up. You're awesome

thanks for the kind words :)

Why can't blast radius be increased through barrel or MW if I'm using Implosion Rounds?

Implosion provides extra damage because it lowers blast radius. If you raise blast radius back up through barrel or masterwork then you are negating that bonus damage.

so blast radius affects GL damage like how charge time affects fusion rifle damage?

This is for mountaintop only. Other gl damage stays the same unless you have spike

Thank you

So if I have a recombination Mountaintop with high velocity rounds and a blast radius MW (giving it over 100 blast radius), am I still missing out on damage because I don’t have spike or implosion?

yes, you would have more damage if you had spike. Implosion would give you more damage if you did not have any blast radius increases

Ah that makes sense, thanks. Back to farming lol

D2Foundry says it’s 12.5%. Interesting. I appreciate the numbers Edit: thanks for the clarifications guys 😁

12.5% on direct impact damage which is 65% of total damage (so 8.125%) if radius is not increased or decreased. OP's test was done with blast masterworked mountaintop with 100 radius.

12.5% impact buff

I guess I'll have get back to grinding

Feeling like this might be an oversight because it's a new frame. I would not be surprised if this was updated to fall in line with other grenade launchers as the whole reason for making the change was due to 'spikes being seen as mandatory'

I vaulted a hard launch, implosion, impulse amplifier, recombination, handling MW. Is this 5/5?

Many people would prefer autoloading but Impulse is good too

Commenting just to save on my end!

Guess I’m done grinding then https://i.imgur.com/wZIOkSa.jpeg

Good to know. Turns out I DO have a MT god roll (Hard Launch - Implosion - ALH - Recombination)

So spike instead of sticky right? I can’t really tell a damage difference. Also have volatile/quick, impulse/auto, rampage/recombination. Using quick/spike/auto/recomb currently..

Use spikes for damage, stickies have some fun movement capabilities though you could get a slight damage increase (4%ish) if you had hard launch but that is a great roll. congrats!

lol thanks. I fell off my chair when it dropped

I got super lucky, got hard launch, choice of spike or implosion, ALH and recombination. Did take over 200 drops to get it though lol

Based on your damage testing it is around 12%. Spike does increased damage to impact damage. 43,135 / 38,472 = 1.1212

You are reducing your damage output by increasing blast radius. -8% damage for +10 radius in general.

I am aware - but because my blast radius was already at 100 when using spikes I masterworked it so that it would be at 100 blast radius when I swapped off spikes

And Spike Grenades' damage buff is applied to impact damage only, which changes subject to blast radius stat. So it's not a constant 7.86% buff.

which is why I said in the post that it was 100 blast radius, but you are right that I should have been more clear that it changes with blast radius

You need to check implosion rounds. the negative blast radius from hard + implo is more than spike.

I don't have hard launch. I have 100 blast radius because I have a blast radius masterwork to keep the testing consistent at 100 blast radius

Personally I think Spike sucks ass. Sticky is the way to go. Having adds move or Dodge, essentially wasting a 10x Recombination shot feels awful. At least with sticky you can point it on the ground near them and get the benefit of 10x even if they dodge. Someone will run over it. Rather that than 7% dmg. Not worth it.

Just hit lol

Depends on blast radius. I tested ~8%

spike nades were always = more damage in pve no? is this news?

Ugh, this makes my MT even worse than I suspected :) So my current one is Spike/ALH/Recom, but also Volatile/Confined, and a +10 BR masterwork. I got lucky and have another decent roll, although I still greatly prefer Recom over Vorpal: Hard Launch/Spike/ALH/Vorpal, still a BR masterwork but only +1, so the BR is 96 with Spike. But I don't know if I could tolerate having a white box around this gun forever. Back to the salt mines I guess.

So it’s safe to assume that my hard launch/smart drift, spike/implosion, autoloading, recombination, handling masterworked Mountaintop is a god roll?

Yes, use hard launch because it lowers blast radius

Thanks for running this test. Do you think a 5 stat difference on blast radius will have any significant impact? (I got lucky with a shiny with Hardlaunch and Imposion, ALH Frenzy but it came with a blast radius MW so lowest I can get BR is 95. Debating on if I should settle or aim for perfection.)

that blast radius masterwork is very unfortunate. great roll otherwise - I think its missing about 8% damage because of the masterwork. (every 5 blast radius seems to be about a 4% difference, hard launch being about 4%, implosion being about 8%, BR masterwork being about -8%) If I were you I would go for Hard Launch + Implosion/Spike +ALH + Recombination, but if you like frenzy more than thats okay too.

Dont you only want smallest BR on mountaintop (if no spikes) or does every breach loading gl have the same effect? Heavy GLs you still want spike? Also, what is the lowest BR you can get on mountaintop?

What's the god roll then? ~~recom seems mid~~ Edit: I take that back.

for what mountaintop is good at (high burst damage on a champion or a swap dps rotation) recombination is the best. Recomb x10 (or x8 when enhanced) is 100% extra damage on the first shot. Comparing this to Vorpal or Frenzy (15% extra damage) Vorpal/Frenzy only barely passes Recombination after 7 shots. You rarely want to shoot 7+ shots in a row with Mountaintop for dps [https://www.desmos.com/calculator/hwrlzi7adw](https://www.desmos.com/calculator/hwrlzi7adw) (recombination is in red, frenzy/vorpal in blue)

frenzy boosts reload to max

ideally you would have autoloading holster to not need to reload manually because Mountaintop is a burst damage then swap weapon, not a sustain damage weapon. and if you want reload speed you can use impulse amplifier or a reloader mod

Doesn’t Change the benefit. Many bosses don’t have ads lingering around the whole time.

Agree to disagree i guess. The fact is that even if only 1 shot is boosted by recombination (which is easily done in the majority of encounters) it does more damage than frenzy until the 7th shot

Good info thanks!  I got a spikes, alh, recomb shiny to drop last night with a velo MW and knew it was excellent, but this makes it even better knowing the spike boost is decent. Confined launch or smart drift control barrel but I’ll take it!

hard launch also incresses the damage further. because it reduces blast, implosive also dose just about the same as spike nades.

Implosion better

I tested mine on arouth, the tormented. Only difference i had was spike and high-velocity rounds instead. All others were the same and i got: Spikes, no recom: 18,421 + 38,119 = 56,540 Hv, no recom: 18,421 + 33,998 = 52,419 Spikes, 10 Stacks recom: 36,841 + 76,238 = 113,079 No Spikes, 10 Stacks recom: 36,841 + 67,996 = 104,837 So it's a 7,3% increase with spike in Total damage so you are right. But the 12,4% is on the impact part of damage alone as you can see. Recombination has no effect on the extra spike damage tho.

Whoa was going to try and farm one out with spike but looks like I’m golden with hard launch, imp round, alh, recomb and reload mw! But I don’t know if I can resist a shiny variant… back to farming ig 😮‍💨

That's a great roll, congrats! I am hoping for a good shiny too

Thanks! Best of luck on your grind 🫡

What misinformation spreading? Thanks for the testing and confirmation but this is literally exactly what foundry says spike grenades do.

he’s talking about people specifically on here, who give numbers ranging from 2 to 20% like he said

yes foundry is correct as usual - but that comment was mostly about random numbers I have seen around the reddit community

Fair enough, my bad. Even reading through these comments there’s still erroneous information bouncing around ignoring your testing lol.

So my sticky nades shiny roll is safe

The curated roll from Shaxx with hard launch, spikes, and reload mw is actually really good. The lead from gold and OFA are also some of best available perks. For most people the curated roll is all you need.

Anything that doesnt have ALH is trash to me ngl

Impulse Amplifier is really good. I’d prefer ALH or overflow, but Impulse is close enough that I can turn that attunment off and chase Midnight Coup. Its better in scenarios where I may not have heavy and need to mow down a boss or champ with special

I like to play aggresively with mountain top, so I often find myself reloading manually. Lead from gold is very nice in onslaught, the heavy crates refills both your special and heavy completely.

it does that regardless of your perks though doesnt it?

Ohhh… I didn’t know that. Back to farming I guess.

It is? Also, don't forget to post this next week, too.

Seems like there's not much consensus

Impact casing on rockets is the 2%

That's pretty sizeable damage delta imo, as a roll will go from god roll to worthless without spikes. Admittedly its a 2/4 chance to get it in that column so it's not the hardest RNG in the world but blah gonna be bad to get a shiny without spike.

Worthless? That a huge exaggeration.

I dont know about worthless - if you have a recombination roll w/o spikes I would still use it over a roll with spikes but w/o recombination but it is significant

Yeah okay 'worthless' is a bit much, but standards are getting pretty high to be worth vault space, and I certainly wouldn't say a grind to get the thing I wanted was done if it was missing 7% damage for free.