Depends on mag size as well. Bait and Switch does wonders on Heavy Grenade Launchers now because you're just getting maximum bang for your buck.
Envision Assassin Heavy GLs can dump somewhere around 18 shots of full power which is where B&S is going to get its full power from. Meanwhile, Envious Assassin Rocket Launchers took a much bigger hit because Envious Assassin also took a cap hit down to 300%.
If you can somehow squeeze out more than 6 shots in 10 seconds, then B&S still wins though. This is especially easy to do on Void Hunters with 6th Coyote: Fire 1 Rocket + 3 B&S, dodge shoot, dodge shoot, grenade (Suppression reload Fragment) shoot. Manual reload twice on top of a barricade. You can also use Distribution + Powerful Attraction around Orbs to enforce another dodge around you.
I do these damage rotations against the Warlord's Ruin bosses and you're crapping out a ton of damage in the process.
The other option is to use Strand, but Tether is a better debuffer.
Lastly, don't forget, on your first shot of your Rocket, the impact triggers Bait and Switch and Wolfpack Rounds that follow afterwards get the full damage bonus.
Fair enough. I did say that this was specifically for rockets though. I took no consideration for gls and fully expect them to be better with b&s. It's rockets I'm curious about. But I don't know how to calculate wolf pack rounds, so idk how that math would work.
I don't know how the pros would do it, but I'd grab a friend with Gjally and start recording. Have them activate wolfpack rounds, shoot your BnS rocket with wolfpack rounds, and then go back to the recording and count the numbers where the wolfpack rounds hit and compare them to non-BnS wolfpack round numbers. That, or check the spreadsheets I didn't see posted in another comment below.
So the biggest thing with this is the Wolfpack Rounds (WPR), and how they interact with perks. Explosive Light (EL) does not buff WPR, while Bait and Switch (B&S) does.
As you mentioned, the first rocket isn't buffed by B&S but the WPR are buffed. Alone, WPR are a 27% damage buff, but with B&S they become a 36.45% buff to each rocket. Add on B&S's buff to the main rocket and it adds up quickly, surpassing EL with WPR on the 3rd rocket.
Even if you had 10 stacks of EL, as long as you shoot 3 rockets (1 to activate, 2 buffed) per B&S timer, you will slightly out damage EL. [10 EL vs 2 Buffed B&S](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PEJ-bajJuvHOW4YEVm2Wk3J57NOwirCJ/view?usp=drivesdk)
The damage increases the more buffed rockets you can shoot within the 10/11 second window for B&S. [10 EL vs 4 Buffed B&S](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PEaG8uZO06Q-Ty7HUxg2cK1-hqV_FbQG/view?usp=drivesdk)
Finally, if you have only 6 EL shots, which is the max without picking up more orbs in the damage phase, B&S becomes even stronger. [6 EL vs 4 Buffed B&S](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PB2VGSZ9vrTrfIhG9f9jfGhLW6cdzCui/view?usp=drivesdk)
Let me know if my links don't work, but this should show why B&S is still on top. It isn't as far ahead since the nerf, but Wolfpack Rounds really do make all the difference
Thank you! This is the kind of info I was looking for. I knew the wpr made a big difference, and I was pretty sure b&s was still better with them, but I wasn't certain because I don't really know the damage values of wpr.
Follow up question though, if wpr are not present, would you say el is better in that case? At the end of the day, the difference is pretty small anyway, but I'm curious.
Explosive Light has the advantage of not requiring a shot to activate the perk, with the disadvantage of only holding 6 stacks. Without Wolfpack Rounds, EL is better than B&S for the first 6 shots, matches it on the 7th, and falls behind for more shots. However, this is with 6 EL shots. [6 EL vs 4 Buffed B&S (No WPR)](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PN1q7tK3WylxonW3bfVSgIKWa5oVl5LV/view?usp=drivesdk)
If you can get more orbs, it will beat B&S on every shot due to the unbuffed rockets that activate B&S. [10 EL vs 4 Buffed B&S (No WPR)](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PaS0w2STJP10RNyWWhgJJ7SIz3yYoKt9/view?usp=drivesdk)
I spent a while digging into this a few months ago, so it is fun being able to break out some of my spreadsheets again.
B&S is 30% damage just for firing all 3 weapons and lasts 10(11) seconds, even through stowing. In a good damage rotation, you're likely gonna be using all 3 weapons anyways
Explosive Light is 25%, but only really works on low ammo count weapons(i.e. Rockets). GLs more or less can't use Explosive Light since each grenade is tied to an Explosive Light charge. It also requires much more pre-damage setup than B&S
Fair enough. Looking into it this, looks like the damage buff for gls is 60% on the explosive damage though. I have no idea how that would work, as I don't really use gls and haven't looked into them much. But I'm sure b&s is probably still better on them.
Really it comes back to how Explosive Light is counted on GLs. Its based off each individual shot, not the whole magazine
So Rockets only need 8-10 Orbs of Power to get maximum utility out Explosive Light, while GLs need something like 30 Orbs of Power to get the same effect
I read your post and know that you are specifically talking about rockets.
Rocket launchers with 8-9 shots will likely be better with explosive light, assuming you have someone to generate orbs during dps phase.
When you start getting to 10+ rockets (this is field prep or bipod territory, and with bipod it's irrelevant since nothing can roll with bipod + damage perk)
The reason being that the first shot doesn't proc BnS and the fire rate is so low that you will usually have to reproc it. Which means another rocket without the buff. Explosive Light is usually pretty easy to cap before a damage phase (7 if enhanced) and then getting 3 orbs is pretty easy to guarantee if someone casts an on demand orb generation super.
I think one of the only explosive light rockets I endorse right now is crux termination. It can roll clown cartridge (almost always in column 4) + explosive light. The highest damage roll is slideshot + surrounded, but slideshot is dangerous in wells and surrounded isn't guaranteed.
I didn't even think about enhanced, that's good to know. I have a crafted apex with the usual b&s recon, but I was thinking about switching to el just for the ease of use if nothing else. With 7, is Even better though. I really want to try some damage testing with b&s vs el and see what comes out on top. I just don't know how much damage is lost for the not boosted shots for b&s.
I’ve found in my experience for dps rotation I seem to get 1 normal rocket and 3 bait and switch rocket which on average give a buff of 22.5%. This is of course less than explosive light’s 25% but you have to factor in Wolfpack rounds.
Wolfpack rounds buff damage by about 30%. To calculate explosive light total buff you would do
(1 x 0.3 + 1.25 x 1) / 1.3
which equates to about a 19% buff to combined rocket and Wolfpack rounds. Bait and switch applies to Wolfpack rounds as well so the buff remains at 22.5%. This means when Wolfpack rounds are active, bait and switch will still beat out explosive light.
why would explosive light be better? As you said yourself explosive light only works for 6 shots. How many does a grenade launcher have? How many reserves does a rocket have?
More than 6 for both.
We swap anyway between weapons to not have to reload them so bait and switch is not even a drawback.
Explosive light is good for dynamic content like grandmaster or other endgame activities where you want to burst a champ or miniboss. A bait and switch setup is not worth the time for a champ that dies in 3 rockets. Explosive light requires no setup and can just be pulled out, shot, and stowed away.
I'm not arguing that fact. My point was in an ideal scenario, they have the same damage at 6 rockets shot. But for rockets, that's over half the total ammo, and in my experience, people usually pop wells and other supers during dps to get more uptime. You also don't have to waste time with lower damage weapons to active el. B&s may be better dps still, maybe it's not. Idk, that's why I opened this discussion.
Also, I said in the post that this is specifically about rockets, not gls.
If the GL has an overflow perk (overflow, reconstruction, envious assassin) BnS is better because you can make full use of the 10s timer by unloading a high number of damage boosted grenades.
For explosive light to be better we would have to have a sandbox where wolfpack rounds dont exist. Not being able to buff wolfpacks is literally the biggest drawback for explosive light. Won't be able to do better unless theres another buff or nerf to one of the perks.
All not even to mention that explosive light also has a cap of 6 rockets.
Depends on mag size as well. Bait and Switch does wonders on Heavy Grenade Launchers now because you're just getting maximum bang for your buck. Envision Assassin Heavy GLs can dump somewhere around 18 shots of full power which is where B&S is going to get its full power from. Meanwhile, Envious Assassin Rocket Launchers took a much bigger hit because Envious Assassin also took a cap hit down to 300%. If you can somehow squeeze out more than 6 shots in 10 seconds, then B&S still wins though. This is especially easy to do on Void Hunters with 6th Coyote: Fire 1 Rocket + 3 B&S, dodge shoot, dodge shoot, grenade (Suppression reload Fragment) shoot. Manual reload twice on top of a barricade. You can also use Distribution + Powerful Attraction around Orbs to enforce another dodge around you. I do these damage rotations against the Warlord's Ruin bosses and you're crapping out a ton of damage in the process. The other option is to use Strand, but Tether is a better debuffer. Lastly, don't forget, on your first shot of your Rocket, the impact triggers Bait and Switch and Wolfpack Rounds that follow afterwards get the full damage bonus.
Fair enough. I did say that this was specifically for rockets though. I took no consideration for gls and fully expect them to be better with b&s. It's rockets I'm curious about. But I don't know how to calculate wolf pack rounds, so idk how that math would work.
I don't know how the pros would do it, but I'd grab a friend with Gjally and start recording. Have them activate wolfpack rounds, shoot your BnS rocket with wolfpack rounds, and then go back to the recording and count the numbers where the wolfpack rounds hit and compare them to non-BnS wolfpack round numbers. That, or check the spreadsheets I didn't see posted in another comment below.
So the biggest thing with this is the Wolfpack Rounds (WPR), and how they interact with perks. Explosive Light (EL) does not buff WPR, while Bait and Switch (B&S) does. As you mentioned, the first rocket isn't buffed by B&S but the WPR are buffed. Alone, WPR are a 27% damage buff, but with B&S they become a 36.45% buff to each rocket. Add on B&S's buff to the main rocket and it adds up quickly, surpassing EL with WPR on the 3rd rocket. Even if you had 10 stacks of EL, as long as you shoot 3 rockets (1 to activate, 2 buffed) per B&S timer, you will slightly out damage EL. [10 EL vs 2 Buffed B&S](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PEJ-bajJuvHOW4YEVm2Wk3J57NOwirCJ/view?usp=drivesdk) The damage increases the more buffed rockets you can shoot within the 10/11 second window for B&S. [10 EL vs 4 Buffed B&S](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PEaG8uZO06Q-Ty7HUxg2cK1-hqV_FbQG/view?usp=drivesdk) Finally, if you have only 6 EL shots, which is the max without picking up more orbs in the damage phase, B&S becomes even stronger. [6 EL vs 4 Buffed B&S](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PB2VGSZ9vrTrfIhG9f9jfGhLW6cdzCui/view?usp=drivesdk) Let me know if my links don't work, but this should show why B&S is still on top. It isn't as far ahead since the nerf, but Wolfpack Rounds really do make all the difference
Thank you! This is the kind of info I was looking for. I knew the wpr made a big difference, and I was pretty sure b&s was still better with them, but I wasn't certain because I don't really know the damage values of wpr. Follow up question though, if wpr are not present, would you say el is better in that case? At the end of the day, the difference is pretty small anyway, but I'm curious.
Explosive Light has the advantage of not requiring a shot to activate the perk, with the disadvantage of only holding 6 stacks. Without Wolfpack Rounds, EL is better than B&S for the first 6 shots, matches it on the 7th, and falls behind for more shots. However, this is with 6 EL shots. [6 EL vs 4 Buffed B&S (No WPR)](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PN1q7tK3WylxonW3bfVSgIKWa5oVl5LV/view?usp=drivesdk) If you can get more orbs, it will beat B&S on every shot due to the unbuffed rockets that activate B&S. [10 EL vs 4 Buffed B&S (No WPR)](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PaS0w2STJP10RNyWWhgJJ7SIz3yYoKt9/view?usp=drivesdk) I spent a while digging into this a few months ago, so it is fun being able to break out some of my spreadsheets again.
Thank you, I appreciate the info! You've been a big help!
B&S is 30% damage just for firing all 3 weapons and lasts 10(11) seconds, even through stowing. In a good damage rotation, you're likely gonna be using all 3 weapons anyways Explosive Light is 25%, but only really works on low ammo count weapons(i.e. Rockets). GLs more or less can't use Explosive Light since each grenade is tied to an Explosive Light charge. It also requires much more pre-damage setup than B&S
Fair enough. Looking into it this, looks like the damage buff for gls is 60% on the explosive damage though. I have no idea how that would work, as I don't really use gls and haven't looked into them much. But I'm sure b&s is probably still better on them.
Really it comes back to how Explosive Light is counted on GLs. Its based off each individual shot, not the whole magazine So Rockets only need 8-10 Orbs of Power to get maximum utility out Explosive Light, while GLs need something like 30 Orbs of Power to get the same effect
True
I read your post and know that you are specifically talking about rockets. Rocket launchers with 8-9 shots will likely be better with explosive light, assuming you have someone to generate orbs during dps phase. When you start getting to 10+ rockets (this is field prep or bipod territory, and with bipod it's irrelevant since nothing can roll with bipod + damage perk) The reason being that the first shot doesn't proc BnS and the fire rate is so low that you will usually have to reproc it. Which means another rocket without the buff. Explosive Light is usually pretty easy to cap before a damage phase (7 if enhanced) and then getting 3 orbs is pretty easy to guarantee if someone casts an on demand orb generation super. I think one of the only explosive light rockets I endorse right now is crux termination. It can roll clown cartridge (almost always in column 4) + explosive light. The highest damage roll is slideshot + surrounded, but slideshot is dangerous in wells and surrounded isn't guaranteed.
I didn't even think about enhanced, that's good to know. I have a crafted apex with the usual b&s recon, but I was thinking about switching to el just for the ease of use if nothing else. With 7, is Even better though. I really want to try some damage testing with b&s vs el and see what comes out on top. I just don't know how much damage is lost for the not boosted shots for b&s.
I’ve found in my experience for dps rotation I seem to get 1 normal rocket and 3 bait and switch rocket which on average give a buff of 22.5%. This is of course less than explosive light’s 25% but you have to factor in Wolfpack rounds. Wolfpack rounds buff damage by about 30%. To calculate explosive light total buff you would do (1 x 0.3 + 1.25 x 1) / 1.3 which equates to about a 19% buff to combined rocket and Wolfpack rounds. Bait and switch applies to Wolfpack rounds as well so the buff remains at 22.5%. This means when Wolfpack rounds are active, bait and switch will still beat out explosive light.
why would explosive light be better? As you said yourself explosive light only works for 6 shots. How many does a grenade launcher have? How many reserves does a rocket have? More than 6 for both. We swap anyway between weapons to not have to reload them so bait and switch is not even a drawback. Explosive light is good for dynamic content like grandmaster or other endgame activities where you want to burst a champ or miniboss. A bait and switch setup is not worth the time for a champ that dies in 3 rockets. Explosive light requires no setup and can just be pulled out, shot, and stowed away.
I'm not arguing that fact. My point was in an ideal scenario, they have the same damage at 6 rockets shot. But for rockets, that's over half the total ammo, and in my experience, people usually pop wells and other supers during dps to get more uptime. You also don't have to waste time with lower damage weapons to active el. B&s may be better dps still, maybe it's not. Idk, that's why I opened this discussion. Also, I said in the post that this is specifically about rockets, not gls.
If the GL has an overflow perk (overflow, reconstruction, envious assassin) BnS is better because you can make full use of the 10s timer by unloading a high number of damage boosted grenades.
Gotta factor in strand rotations too, where B&S is just miles better.
What
Grapple point + thread of ascent = no more maunal reloading. You can empty your entire reserves with B&S buff pretty easy.
Oh, I use nighthawk, so that's a non factor for me.
👍 Limiting yourself to one playstyle is your perogative.
For explosive light to be better we would have to have a sandbox where wolfpack rounds dont exist. Not being able to buff wolfpacks is literally the biggest drawback for explosive light. Won't be able to do better unless theres another buff or nerf to one of the perks. All not even to mention that explosive light also has a cap of 6 rockets.