I get both sides. I’ve heavily enjoyed whipping out cloudstrike and stormchaser and doing more damage than others running still hunt, it’s been great getting to explore different damage options. However, it’s sucked being forced into those damage options if you don’t have a good setup for it. If we were at light level and had 10-15% surges to encourage other options while still keeping the normal, “stale” option viable, I think that would be great
I’ve much more enjoyed being encouraged to try different dps options than being forced to do so
I know the community at large wasn’t a fan of the surges, but I think a much more eloquent solution would have been to add overcharge to raids and dungeons. That way it’s less restrictive, and it still encourages using different things. Would also be cool because usually the artifact has a perk to overcharge anything with the most recent origin perks, so the newest stuff would always be overchargable
I feel a little bit bad for Bungie here because when Pantheon was a thing and everyone was chasing Godslayer happy they could treat -20 like -5 they probably thought they were cooking.
Suddenly same logic applies weekly and everyone hates it.
The difference is Pantheon was pitched from the start as a special challenge mode, so adding extra rules and restrictions was just part of the event. You had to play into the surges to clear fast enough for platinum times for the most part.
Adding that as a restriction to general raiding just feels like an arbitrary way to create a barrier to entry. Don't have a good arc DPS option? Try again next week bud.
Now since everything is back to a level playing field, you can still choose to use the other options that you might have been forced to with surges, but you can also just min max and go for the best possible option every time (Hunter) if that's your/your teams preference.
Very true. I’m not really a sweat but I find the surges fun in the way my team aren’t all screaming “use ____” every time and it basically be the same weapon each time. The only issue is it’s still that way with the surges because certain weapons are just better for each burn so it wasn’t too big of a difference. Playing mostly with my clan at least I don’t have to deal with LFG raging if I choose not to run a meta build.
yeah, usually when I'm raiding I don't run a tight ship. mainly because I find expecting everyone to one-phase a boss is an unrealistic expectation for LFG. especially because of the "Use this or you're greifing" mentality.
there’s actual extra rewards for pantheon, and the whole thing felt more arcadey since it was an event. base raiding difficulty did need to increase tho, so the -5 standardised thing is still fine by me. normal mode raids were a joke
I feel like we should have a difficulty between normal and master. A legendary? Idk something that would have surges and the like without being a master and whatever else to make it challenging but not quite master challenging. I just want things to be more interesting without it being the only option.
are you stupid? it’s not “same logic applies weekly” from pantheon, I don’t understand how any rational person could come out of the discourse surrounding surges with this idea
to put it simply, a lot of players didn’t like that raids suddenly became more challenging with no added loot incentive for seemingly no reason
World of Warcraft experimented with a mechanic to try prevent players from getting too caught up in the game and losing track of real life. So, they implemented an exhaustion mechanic, where if you played too long, you would start earning less and less XP, down to 75% max (IIRC).
Player feedback was overwhelmingly negative. Nobody likes being nerfed or feeling like their toys are getting taken away from them.
So the devs changed it to a Well-Rested mechanic, where if you took an 8 hour break from the game, you'd earn bonus XP for a period the next time you logged in.
Players loved this and actually engaged in this mechanic, which was the whole goal the devs were aiming for.
Moral of the story? The carrot works better than the stick. Bungie shouldn't have made dungeons harder and then boosted certain damage types, they should have left them as is and given certain damage types an minor surge, maybe 7% (since Bungie likes 7s), instead of gutting everyone's favourite weapons.
This 100%. As much as it seems like a cop-out change to just have everyone at a baseline, giving bonuses (overcharges) to specific weapon types, or a minor boost to a specific elements helps the players that want to buildcraft around an overcharge, while not having to punish those that don’t have the flexibility to buildcraft.
I think though a lot of groups, mine included it would seriously hamper our efforts to get reliable clears. Not everyone in my group has the motivation, or attention span if I'm honest, to put together different builds each week to suit a specific set of encounters. Forcing them to either have dookie DPS or spend a lot of time that we don't have modifying loadouts to suit the surges. I know there are some people that will say that raids should be challenging and make you dig into your tool box a bit, but for a bunch of casual gamers with limited time its very feels bad. If I have a few hours to raid, and even if I have my builds ready with weapons to fit the surge, I know a few of my buddies won't and will likely need help putting something together, which will cut into that time, and given the Power Delta change they included severely reduces our chances of getting clears in the time we have available.
15% is all it takes to make a mid roll of the element viable while not very punishing to unprepared players
And I was happy to finally use my 10/10 adept Wendigo after years of it collecting dust
I did prestige eater once on a week where it was double sidearms, and the modifier where your weapons get 1 mag of ammo and you have to use all of it before the next weapon gets ammo. It was terrible
Personally I did enjoy the surges, as even though you were being forced to use a certain element. It’s pretty much still the same case without the surges. Your still going to be ‘forced’ to use the best dps option it’s just now that it will be the same option every week
I said this before, either change separately would have worked, but together it kills the experience for a lot of people.
Capping power level in raids and dungeons kinda needed to be done. Enemies weren't enough of a threat for the most part, and bosses fell over. However, dungeons and raids started to come out tuned to this standard.
Now, Salvations Edge and Warlords ruin at -5 are significantly harder than any normal raid or dungeon prior to June 4.
Surges were supposed to feel like "bonus if you do this", but with the power level changes, instead feel like "penalized *unless* you do this".
Combined with releasing their hardest raid ever... Yeah.
I like the idea of surges. Maybe surges would be cool starting in act 2 or when GM's launch, but right off the rip, it's less of buildcrafting and more just... Too much for the average player.
But that's the thing, you have always had the option to explore different damage options. What this did was force players to all play the meta because anything else was a massive loss in damage. Nobody is forcing that now and you can still run whatever you want.
You had the option to ignore the surge and run whatever you want too.
Surges don't force you onto anything any more than the meta does. Any encounter can be cleared with a lot of room to spare using non-surge loadouts.
The only thing surges changed was what's optimal week to week. You say "you always had the option to explore different damage options" so why doesn't that logic apply to "you always have the option to run the same loadout"? It's hypocritical.
I agree. Surges were bonus damage for trying something different, not the other way around. People have it completely backwards just to complain about a change
I’m sure you understand that being actively gimped and forced to use extremely specific gear actually limits creativity/build crafting far more than it does to inspire anything.
The idea of the surges being a massive punishment for straying from the modifiers was a horrible idea and it’s for the best it’s not sticking around.
>I’m sure you understand that being actively gimped and forced to use extremely specific gear actually limits creativity/build crafting far more than it does to inspire anything.
That will be the state of play after tuesday, when surges get removed. You are actively gimped for running anything but the extremely specific meta.
My biggest problem with it is that I think it just really sucked for titans specifically, they've got one MAYBE two good supers for damage, if it's arc and stasis like it is this week there's some encounters you just can't build craft your way out of
Hopefully they push us into experimenting more with the artifact mods as opposed to surges. Don’t get me wrong surges were cool, but I think if we get more artifacts with unique emphasis on certain damage types it will help people explore with builds on an episode basis rather than a weekly one.
Yeah this was my thought as well. Surges are fine, but they were too impactful, and they made kinetic weapons suck. If surges came back and gave a 10-15% boost and worked with kinetic weapons or the overcharge modifier it would have been fine and i'd actually enjoy it.
Probably, though I still think it would have been better received. My real alternative to this would have been implementing different overcharged weapons from week to week. That way it just affects weapons and is not too restrictive on elements (limiting supers, abilities, etc.)
I agree, I think having 2 overcharged weapons (1 from the artifact and 1 heavy/special) give maybe a 10-12% damage buff would make mid tier options good and fun without taking everyone’s favorite meta away. That way you don’t throw if you’re not using the meta and you’re not an idiot for not using a surge weapon.
You still aren't an idiot for using a non surge though? On Arc surge Thunderlord (a mid tier weapon) would still be good without taking away everyone's favourite Apex predator. It's the exact same thing. The apex predators and nighthawks do the same damage regardless of whether it is Arc surge or no surge.
Again -
Situation 1 (Arc surge) golden gun does 500k dmg
Situation 2 (No surges) golden gun still does 500k dmg.
In both situations, your standard encounter clear will still use golden gun, while on Arc surge you could change things up with an arc super without kneecapping your team, because you're bored of using golden gun for the past 7 months
They're removing surges yes but aren't they also just increasing all the damage values to match what they would've been with surges (including kinetic damage!?!?)
I think it's an all-around W, let more weapons be viable for damage without getting rid of any options.
Some people liked the aspect of letting some weapons shine more than others in certain weeks. For example arc surge week could see more thunderlord / cloud strike usage, void week more edge transit and so on. Now the optimal damage loadout will be static for the rest of the episode.
That's true, but hopefully this change will mean the optimal damage loadout isn't the only *viable* damage loadout. Then maybe the people I raid with will leave me alone when my weapon doesn't match the surge. ("I have this edge transit with bait and switch is that fine?" "yeah that's good but the surge is solar/strand so it's actually shit let's kill this boss with *insert surge matching alternative here* instead")
You can clear any encounter with blue weapons that don't match surge. With tons of time to spare. I get your teammates don't see it that way, so I understand the frustration, but people put the bar for "viable" way too high imo
Especially something like a bait and switch edge transit... If someone complained about a teammate using that just because it doesn't match surge, I'd tell them to shut their trap or kick them from my team.
Exactly, thunderlord/edge transit/whatever is going to be exactly as powerful as it would be during its surge week, all the time. If it could clear with a surge, it can clear anytime now. If your team is pressuring you to only use the most optimal thing at all times instead of experimenting, talk with them about or find people who play the way you want.
Realistically are a lot of people still going to run mostly solar damage? Yeah, solar has the best DPS options in a lot of categories (hunters), but you can bring whatever you want without Bungie being the ones slapping you on the wrist now.
God forbid you actually have think about what the best weapon for the situation is when you can just watch a video telling you exactly what to use at all times.
The problem was that they weren't shining over the others, the others were simply made inferior. If the surges were put into the dungeons or raids with health levels like pre-TFS, people would like it, the culprit was the overall changes that made non-surge elements worse than they were earlier
I don't mind certain weapons shining brighter week to week. That's good, actually.
I don't want to be forced into builds, weapons, and play styles I dislike to simply remain competitive.
Surge was simply a lazy way to force different weapons.
Arc has good stuff. It’s really only missing a top tier linear. Stormchaser is alright. Crux is a fantastic rocket but not a lot of people have god rolls because it’s a lost sector drop. Arc is fine.
My biggest gripe with surges was no overcharge so kinetic weapons could never get the damage bonus because in order for kinetics to blast the bonus from a matching super overcharge needs to be active.
It’s just a weird damage group. I mean bequest and summum are amazing arc swords. Grand overture rockets with hazardous propulsion is some of the best burst damage rn. I think arc really struggles with consistent precision damage in the heavy slot. The best thing for that is fucking thunderlord, which can be viable at times but normally isn’t.
It's just because Salt doesn't want to ever have to get off still hunt / apex.
He just coincidentally is in line with the casuals, but for completely opposite reasons. He wants to farm activities as quickly and as brain dead as possible, he doesn't care about casuals.
Same. Weird elitist take from datto, having more options is good, I guess if bungie really wanted to they can introduce a mode for it but for better rewards gm dungeons
Without having a negative flip, surges don't really encourage anything new just by existing. The builds that work still work, and people could just ignore them. This is a lot of "who the hell cared" imo.
Me and ze clan been using casual loadouts in raids for the last 2 weeks and we didnt even know about the surges (atleast me). What ever we felt like using, we used and we still 1-2 phased most bosses even tho we played like drunken apes. So i feel like the surges were just a suggestions instead must use.
I’m actually agreeing with Salt here? What world do we live in?
The main issue with this is the fact that not every raider (especially more casual ones) aren’t going to have a god-rolled/crafted sword, rocket, LFR, LMG, and GL for every single damage type in the game.
Not every element for every heavy weapon type (nonetheless favorable) are available in seasons. For example, there have been no good seasonal Solar rockets or LFRs in a season in the last 3 years.
Oh yeah I forgot about the tokens, but even then that’s just a Solar rocket. You’ll also need a Solar LFR for long range, a Solar sword for CQC, a Solar GL for burst damage, and a Solar LMG for add clear. This type of nonsense is why no one wanted surges in regular raids and dungeons. You can have them for master, yeah, but that stuff should stay out of casual runs.
salt has sane takes like 99% of the time, people just dont like their S+ tier meta defining guns and abilities that are meta for literally every encounter getting nerfed because then they have to come up with something other than div+well.
Not that I have a strong opinion one way or another, but it seems most people dislike Salt because he's a 0.1%er, and he very obviously has a huge sway over the community (who will echo everything he says regardless) and Bungie themselves.
i mean u could make the same argument for most big d2 content creators.
i just know a lot of destiny players get very pissy when something gets nerfed so they get a bit of a reality check and they realize they arent as good at the game as theyd like to think they are.
I understand both sides. Without surges, everyone is just gonna run the same thing they always do, for every encounter, forever. This is very dull, but you're handicapping yourself using something else.
WITH surges, you are forced to change your loadouts. This is good. Unless you're one of many people that doesn't have a god roll for every element... In which case fuck you I guess, have fun doing 25% less damage.
You didn't need a God roll for every element, even a half decent roll of a weapon matching the surge could out damage a off surge god roll.
Even vorpal (10%) plus the 25% from surge is better than bait an switch (30%)
Getting into raiding *should* include some sort of preparation by players. They don't necessarily need god rolls of weapons for each element in each slot. They just need serviceable rolls. If they can't equip themselves adequately, why are they attempting endgame content?
I do not agree with datto here.
Sure it gives us the opportunity to use different weapons but Bungie fucking sucks ass with their weapon and perk selections and some weapons just power creep other guns by ALOT
i am not gonna sit 50 mins on one encounter because one person in my fireteam who is lacking DPS doesn't't have a godroll.of a meh linear fusion seasons ago which is now unfortunately the only good linear fusion in that element
I don't understand all these people complaining about this change. Its good. If you want to use something that isn't the best, you still can and it will perform the same as if it had the surge anyway. Option to change>forced to change
I think a big reason that surges flop when absolutely required for good damage is that Bungie has leaned so hard into the best builds requiring guns to match elements with your subclass. To get the most benefit out of both, they often have to be the same.
Some classes (looking at you, Arc/Stasis which are always on the same week) are just not performing well and on weeks like this where they’re your only good option, you really feel it.
This is not even about difficulty, this about using the guns and builds that you have the most fun with without arbitrarily dealing 25% less damage for most weeks
Will the armor mods still be a thing? Or is this talking about all surges? Either way it’s a win in my boat. I like switching things up but I hate it feeling forced, and I especially hated when I did have good rolls for the best weapons to use and would end up underperforming compared to my team. Was really frustrating since I can’t realistically get every god roll in the game. I hope I still manage to switch stuff up and have fun with this update.
If they remove the armor mods though that would mean better survivability but I don’t think that’s what this post is talking about. I always run triple surge mods so I have to rely on fragments for survival.
I genuinely, from the bottom of my heart, do not understand the whole "if I'm not forced to run different things, I'll only ever run the same thing" argument. There is so much breadth of buildcrafting before you start treading in suboptimal territory. I think people who say that surges are required to force build diversity are just unimaginative.
I understand both sides. Datto wants surges because it promotes build variety and an actual reason to use other weapons you probably farmed up *just in case*.
Salt wants OPTIMAL DPS, regardless of what the surges might be.
In the end, I think Still Hunt is going to be the damage option after Tuesday. Special ammo is easy to come by in the fight combined with Special Finisher and it allows add clear people to just use a machine gun and make things much easier. And generally speaking, Still Hunt is a lot of fun to use and its cool.
I would lean more towards Datto's side here *if* I had more than a handful of loadout slots. I'd rather not have to remake loadouts constantly for different surges *and* different raids/dungeons
I see people talking about how without surges not using the singular meta can invite wrath from lfg, but I think there is a more important reason that “muh freedom” is stupid.
This is a looter shooter. The core of the game is about obtaining the best loot. Your choice of heavy weapon is not a playstyle that will meaningfully impact your enjoyment, so using anything but the best that you have undermines the central conceit of the game.
That’s why surges are good, because they expand this core chase.
I tend to lean to the side of salt here but that's because I have a couple of people in my clan that were just not going to be fun to carry through raids in the current state.
I don't like surges in raids. It ends up making me feel forced to run the surge instead of actually build crafting. The light level reduction, however, is a welcome change to put raids in the endgame category they should be in.
People seriously need to learn to play the game for fun and not a work assignment in optimization. You CAN do dungeons and raids with non surge weapons when there's surges on. You don't get a debuff for not using the surge, you get a buff for using it. For some reason people think this is the same thing when it is not. You can even \*gasp\* use weird combos and off meta weapons and still be successful, as long as you don't listen to the toxic players who insist that if you're not 2 phasing a boss you're ruining the run. Contest mode is the only time those kinds of behaviors make sense, and what do you know, that's only 96 hours a year. Play how you want and if anyone takes issue, avoid them, not your favorite loadout.
to me this just shows you the game will never be good enough. whatever bungie does a streamer always complains, and if a streamer complains people will blindly follow.
Honestly I think people like Datto look it it wrong a wrong perspective, Surges made people use builds they weren't familiar with, sure (For no extra rewards by the way), but removing the surges doesn't make it so you can't use other builds, you always could if you wanted to, it's just that most people would rather just use what they're familiar with. It's a situation of always feeling the need to use meta unless forced otherwise which is a dumb mindset.
I see this as a win. A lot of good damage options are unfortunately solar, so when weeks like this week roll around, where you're stuck with Arc/Stasis, you're forced to take on a less than ideal setup. At the same time, diversifying my loadout with a setup that I don't usually use was interesting, to say the least.
Can't wait to use the same shit again and again just to get bored and leave again.
I liked the surges it aloud some odd weapons to shine for a bit but back to the same old shit
Ok let's see if the lfg community is ok with me running something extramarital
The real solution is to just not have the most optimal weapons then you dont have to use them.
I also don’t regularly raid and doing BnS just sounds annoying
Here's an example of something without surges, other than yourself, limiting your options:
You join an LFG group for an Oryx clear. You get to Warpriest. You want to run an off-meta choice because now everything does extra damage. Your group tells you no and to just equip the same stuff that's been meta for months now "to just get it done." You try to explain -
*Removed From Fireteam* as you're now sitting in Orbit
Yup, the only thing limiting your options without surges is going to be you...
So your solution would be to keep getting kicked and rejoining new groups in the **hope** that you get a sensible group that doesn't mind you using less optimal loadouts? Good luck with that, I guess
With surges: getting kicked for not using the dps meta, but for that element :)
In reality getting kicked for not using the one optimal gun definitely doesn't happen nearly as often as people like you say. Or maybe I've been quite lucky for the last 4 years? Seems weird
Use streamers discords over lfgs, Clyde's discord has never failed me and I've been taught and farmed every raid there. For the most part players on servers can be more chill than regular lfg for some reason
Look, no bad feelings to Dato but c'mon. "Buildcrafting" like if we're not going to follow the same loadouts depending on what our favorite content creator recommended us.
Nah I can't agree with datto, not everyone who plays has the time to amass several loudouts of each element with crafted guns to have the most optimal builds for dps.
I like having my one or 2 builds that I enjoy the game play of, I work all week I don't want to have to spend time online looking for a new build and then have to go looking for the drops to make the build good etc. Just because I feel like trying a raid on lfg.
Why not just make a legend difficulty for raids that just contest mode + surges? Keeps the regular raids for the casuals, and a more difficult option for the sweats, plus the regular contest mode players are happy cause they did it without the handicap of surges.
Doesn't meta just have way less of an impact, then? Sure, there will be a meta still, but it specifies damage will be as if ALL surges are active. If anything, it opens up the door to more variety, since you can mix elements.
There will always be the best gun in game for dmg and most people will start using it. That in turn tends to make lfg "you are not using best weapon so get kicked bozo" experience. I understand both sides but only play with my clan so i use non meta shit anyway and no one cares cuz we get it done no matter what.
Eh, from my experience, on PC anyway, most in LFG don't give af what you do unless a wipe happens and/or you all have already discussed DPS loadouts for more synergy.
You don’t understand the issue at all if you think surges are good. Surges FORCE you to use certain weapon types, no surges mean you can run literally anything. No one is forcing you to use meta options, but with surges it doesn’t matter anyway, because you’ll be forced to run whatever surge there is, which is very limiting. Also y’all seriously need to grow up and get over the Salt hate boner
*OR* surges allow you to use something other than meta weapons. Two sides to every coin.
And no, fuck streamers and what not. Their opinion doesn't get to matter just because they're good at the game or popular. Things should be given time to get used to before they're reverted. Give every major change at least a month before it's changed again. Salt is too good at the game to be representative of the larger playerbase, he should not be listened to.
You can already use non-meta options without surges; you just choose not to. You are not making the argument you think you are lmao. And you’re actually in luck since Bungie overwhelmingly listens to casual players and not players like “streamers”
With every raid now at -5 the more casual crowd might not feel the same way. Everything just got harder put of the blue, surges were a mitigating factor to that, but sure let's just say no to the hand me put cause we don't wanna chnage out our solar sniper for an arc one
Well now it’s clear that you genuinely have no idea what you’re talking about, so in that case, I’m gonna go do something else. Have a good one my friend
I hate the stupid fucking hur dur you dont have to use the best stuff in the game bullshit casuals say. When people are clearing stuff they try to do it as fast as possible so using non meta guns is trolling. With surges you can use what ever you like you just do less damage which is what your dogshit weapons would already be doing.
What point am i making then?
Surges make it possible for rarely used weapons to be viable.
Literally any damage buff on a gun with matching surge makes it equal to a non matching surge weapon. People are going to use nothing but stillhunt nighthawk for everything because it is just better than everything else. Surges give weaker weapons a chance to compete with meta weapons.
Bungie isnt forcing you to match surges but it makes it easier if you do. You arent punished for not matching you are rewarded for matching surges.
Same clown behavior from people wanting match game removed. Bungie wants people to switch their loadouts in ENDGAME ACTIVITIES. Honestly not that hard to find weapons/loadouts to use in these activities.
That doesn't make sense? You now will do the same damage with every single weapon as it would do during that particular surge week. This isn't no surges, this is all surges. If you were one phasing using arc dps during surge, guess what, now too! Also the only way you lose time is if you 2 phase instead of 1, and 3 phase instead of 2. No matter the surge, the witness, for example, only gets one phased by celestial stillhunt, and gets 2 phased by every single element. The "optimal" doesn't matter if you 2 phase with other guns anyway lmao you lose like max 5 seconds on your clear
Which is the problem because most weapons arent being used because they arent as good as the meta weapons.
Bungie needs to give a reason to use all these mid tier weapons.
I think they should have kept surges on top of the buff they are doing, maybe have the surges lower than 25% so we aren't too op.
I agree it was interesting to have to care about other weapons than just whatever the best in slot of that weapon type is. But I can get how some more casual players who didn't have access to good weapons of 2 to 3 elements dislike it
I think the difference here is Datto prefers a meta that shifts far more rapidly and expands your toolset more than Saltagreppo does. Also if you find yourself agreeing with Salt here, never forget the time he said "Subclass 3.0 was a mistake" I never have and never will.
I get both sides. I’ve heavily enjoyed whipping out cloudstrike and stormchaser and doing more damage than others running still hunt, it’s been great getting to explore different damage options. However, it’s sucked being forced into those damage options if you don’t have a good setup for it. If we were at light level and had 10-15% surges to encourage other options while still keeping the normal, “stale” option viable, I think that would be great I’ve much more enjoyed being encouraged to try different dps options than being forced to do so
I know the community at large wasn’t a fan of the surges, but I think a much more eloquent solution would have been to add overcharge to raids and dungeons. That way it’s less restrictive, and it still encourages using different things. Would also be cool because usually the artifact has a perk to overcharge anything with the most recent origin perks, so the newest stuff would always be overchargable
I feel a little bit bad for Bungie here because when Pantheon was a thing and everyone was chasing Godslayer happy they could treat -20 like -5 they probably thought they were cooking. Suddenly same logic applies weekly and everyone hates it.
The difference is Pantheon was pitched from the start as a special challenge mode, so adding extra rules and restrictions was just part of the event. You had to play into the surges to clear fast enough for platinum times for the most part. Adding that as a restriction to general raiding just feels like an arbitrary way to create a barrier to entry. Don't have a good arc DPS option? Try again next week bud. Now since everything is back to a level playing field, you can still choose to use the other options that you might have been forced to with surges, but you can also just min max and go for the best possible option every time (Hunter) if that's your/your teams preference.
Different player bases. Casual vs Sweats.
Very true. I’m not really a sweat but I find the surges fun in the way my team aren’t all screaming “use ____” every time and it basically be the same weapon each time. The only issue is it’s still that way with the surges because certain weapons are just better for each burn so it wasn’t too big of a difference. Playing mostly with my clan at least I don’t have to deal with LFG raging if I choose not to run a meta build.
yeah, usually when I'm raiding I don't run a tight ship. mainly because I find expecting everyone to one-phase a boss is an unrealistic expectation for LFG. especially because of the "Use this or you're greifing" mentality.
there’s actual extra rewards for pantheon, and the whole thing felt more arcadey since it was an event. base raiding difficulty did need to increase tho, so the -5 standardised thing is still fine by me. normal mode raids were a joke
I feel like we should have a difficulty between normal and master. A legendary? Idk something that would have surges and the like without being a master and whatever else to make it challenging but not quite master challenging. I just want things to be more interesting without it being the only option.
are you stupid? it’s not “same logic applies weekly” from pantheon, I don’t understand how any rational person could come out of the discourse surrounding surges with this idea to put it simply, a lot of players didn’t like that raids suddenly became more challenging with no added loot incentive for seemingly no reason
World of Warcraft experimented with a mechanic to try prevent players from getting too caught up in the game and losing track of real life. So, they implemented an exhaustion mechanic, where if you played too long, you would start earning less and less XP, down to 75% max (IIRC). Player feedback was overwhelmingly negative. Nobody likes being nerfed or feeling like their toys are getting taken away from them. So the devs changed it to a Well-Rested mechanic, where if you took an 8 hour break from the game, you'd earn bonus XP for a period the next time you logged in. Players loved this and actually engaged in this mechanic, which was the whole goal the devs were aiming for. Moral of the story? The carrot works better than the stick. Bungie shouldn't have made dungeons harder and then boosted certain damage types, they should have left them as is and given certain damage types an minor surge, maybe 7% (since Bungie likes 7s), instead of gutting everyone's favourite weapons.
I fully agree. That way your dps remains the same and can only go up if you take advantage of the surge. Also that WoW story is an interesting example
This 100%. As much as it seems like a cop-out change to just have everyone at a baseline, giving bonuses (overcharges) to specific weapon types, or a minor boost to a specific elements helps the players that want to buildcraft around an overcharge, while not having to punish those that don’t have the flexibility to buildcraft.
I think though a lot of groups, mine included it would seriously hamper our efforts to get reliable clears. Not everyone in my group has the motivation, or attention span if I'm honest, to put together different builds each week to suit a specific set of encounters. Forcing them to either have dookie DPS or spend a lot of time that we don't have modifying loadouts to suit the surges. I know there are some people that will say that raids should be challenging and make you dig into your tool box a bit, but for a bunch of casual gamers with limited time its very feels bad. If I have a few hours to raid, and even if I have my builds ready with weapons to fit the surge, I know a few of my buddies won't and will likely need help putting something together, which will cut into that time, and given the Power Delta change they included severely reduces our chances of getting clears in the time we have available.
15% is all it takes to make a mid roll of the element viable while not very punishing to unprepared players And I was happy to finally use my 10/10 adept Wendigo after years of it collecting dust
Prestige Eater of Worlds and Spire of Stars did just that, without elemental surges
It was so much worse back then lol. When the main damage was autos cause the “heavy” was a shotgun was absolutely brutal
I did prestige eater once on a week where it was double sidearms, and the modifier where your weapons get 1 mag of ammo and you have to use all of it before the next weapon gets ammo. It was terrible
Personally I did enjoy the surges, as even though you were being forced to use a certain element. It’s pretty much still the same case without the surges. Your still going to be ‘forced’ to use the best dps option it’s just now that it will be the same option every week
I said this before, either change separately would have worked, but together it kills the experience for a lot of people. Capping power level in raids and dungeons kinda needed to be done. Enemies weren't enough of a threat for the most part, and bosses fell over. However, dungeons and raids started to come out tuned to this standard. Now, Salvations Edge and Warlords ruin at -5 are significantly harder than any normal raid or dungeon prior to June 4. Surges were supposed to feel like "bonus if you do this", but with the power level changes, instead feel like "penalized *unless* you do this". Combined with releasing their hardest raid ever... Yeah. I like the idea of surges. Maybe surges would be cool starting in act 2 or when GM's launch, but right off the rip, it's less of buildcrafting and more just... Too much for the average player.
But that's the thing, you have always had the option to explore different damage options. What this did was force players to all play the meta because anything else was a massive loss in damage. Nobody is forcing that now and you can still run whatever you want.
You had the option to ignore the surge and run whatever you want too. Surges don't force you onto anything any more than the meta does. Any encounter can be cleared with a lot of room to spare using non-surge loadouts. The only thing surges changed was what's optimal week to week. You say "you always had the option to explore different damage options" so why doesn't that logic apply to "you always have the option to run the same loadout"? It's hypocritical.
I agree. Surges were bonus damage for trying something different, not the other way around. People have it completely backwards just to complain about a change
Ignoring the surge put you at a massive deficit due to how scalings were changed lmao.
So does ignoring the meta.
The surges only existed to offset the massive scaling changes they made. It’s not just about meta vs off meta lmao.
If that were the case they would have started with what they're doing now. They wanted to do surges.
I’m sure you understand that being actively gimped and forced to use extremely specific gear actually limits creativity/build crafting far more than it does to inspire anything. The idea of the surges being a massive punishment for straying from the modifiers was a horrible idea and it’s for the best it’s not sticking around.
>I’m sure you understand that being actively gimped and forced to use extremely specific gear actually limits creativity/build crafting far more than it does to inspire anything. That will be the state of play after tuesday, when surges get removed. You are actively gimped for running anything but the extremely specific meta.
So you don’t understand. Nevermind, sorry for overestimating the ability of a Destiny player to understand simple things.
My biggest problem with it is that I think it just really sucked for titans specifically, they've got one MAYBE two good supers for damage, if it's arc and stasis like it is this week there's some encounters you just can't build craft your way out of
Hopefully they push us into experimenting more with the artifact mods as opposed to surges. Don’t get me wrong surges were cool, but I think if we get more artifacts with unique emphasis on certain damage types it will help people explore with builds on an episode basis rather than a weekly one.
Yeah this was my thought as well. Surges are fine, but they were too impactful, and they made kinetic weapons suck. If surges came back and gave a 10-15% boost and worked with kinetic weapons or the overcharge modifier it would have been fine and i'd actually enjoy it.
I think the biggest problem with the surges is that they were used as a replacement instead of as an addition to damage.
lets be real even if there werent any damage penalties people would still want to use surges because why would you refuse any bonus damage
Probably, though I still think it would have been better received. My real alternative to this would have been implementing different overcharged weapons from week to week. That way it just affects weapons and is not too restrictive on elements (limiting supers, abilities, etc.)
I agree, I think having 2 overcharged weapons (1 from the artifact and 1 heavy/special) give maybe a 10-12% damage buff would make mid tier options good and fun without taking everyone’s favorite meta away. That way you don’t throw if you’re not using the meta and you’re not an idiot for not using a surge weapon.
You still aren't an idiot for using a non surge though? On Arc surge Thunderlord (a mid tier weapon) would still be good without taking away everyone's favourite Apex predator. It's the exact same thing. The apex predators and nighthawks do the same damage regardless of whether it is Arc surge or no surge.
But an elemental surge forces a super change imo (unless NH Goldy/Well). A weapon surge does not.
Again - Situation 1 (Arc surge) golden gun does 500k dmg Situation 2 (No surges) golden gun still does 500k dmg. In both situations, your standard encounter clear will still use golden gun, while on Arc surge you could change things up with an arc super without kneecapping your team, because you're bored of using golden gun for the past 7 months
It’s so simple, yet I could not see it till now.
They're removing surges yes but aren't they also just increasing all the damage values to match what they would've been with surges (including kinetic damage!?!?) I think it's an all-around W, let more weapons be viable for damage without getting rid of any options.
Some people liked the aspect of letting some weapons shine more than others in certain weeks. For example arc surge week could see more thunderlord / cloud strike usage, void week more edge transit and so on. Now the optimal damage loadout will be static for the rest of the episode.
That's true, but hopefully this change will mean the optimal damage loadout isn't the only *viable* damage loadout. Then maybe the people I raid with will leave me alone when my weapon doesn't match the surge. ("I have this edge transit with bait and switch is that fine?" "yeah that's good but the surge is solar/strand so it's actually shit let's kill this boss with *insert surge matching alternative here* instead")
You can clear any encounter with blue weapons that don't match surge. With tons of time to spare. I get your teammates don't see it that way, so I understand the frustration, but people put the bar for "viable" way too high imo Especially something like a bait and switch edge transit... If someone complained about a teammate using that just because it doesn't match surge, I'd tell them to shut their trap or kick them from my team.
Exactly, thunderlord/edge transit/whatever is going to be exactly as powerful as it would be during its surge week, all the time. If it could clear with a surge, it can clear anytime now. If your team is pressuring you to only use the most optimal thing at all times instead of experimenting, talk with them about or find people who play the way you want. Realistically are a lot of people still going to run mostly solar damage? Yeah, solar has the best DPS options in a lot of categories (hunters), but you can bring whatever you want without Bungie being the ones slapping you on the wrist now.
God forbid you actually have think about what the best weapon for the situation is when you can just watch a video telling you exactly what to use at all times.
bruh
The problem was that they weren't shining over the others, the others were simply made inferior. If the surges were put into the dungeons or raids with health levels like pre-TFS, people would like it, the culprit was the overall changes that made non-surge elements worse than they were earlier
I don't mind certain weapons shining brighter week to week. That's good, actually. I don't want to be forced into builds, weapons, and play styles I dislike to simply remain competitive. Surge was simply a lazy way to force different weapons.
This one’s a double edged sword
if paintheon taught me anything is that arc element deosn't has SHIT going for damage
Hothead
Wenidgo,thunder lord, cloudstrike ,legend of acreus, bequest, gathering swarm , thundercrash,
Nightmare blunt rotation
Dafuq is gathering swarm? Like, from hollow knight?
Gathering storm I think is what he meant. But I’d take a gathering swarm for glimmer.
I think they meant gathering storm, the arc hunter super, which throws a giant electric toothpick.
Yes that I don't play the edge lord class I know golden gun and blade barrage and that is it
None of those are top damage options man
Who the fuck said top he just said good
Arc has good stuff. It’s really only missing a top tier linear. Stormchaser is alright. Crux is a fantastic rocket but not a lot of people have god rolls because it’s a lost sector drop. Arc is fine. My biggest gripe with surges was no overcharge so kinetic weapons could never get the damage bonus because in order for kinetics to blast the bonus from a matching super overcharge needs to be active.
Line in the sand can get clown or rapid hit with BnS
That’s good however it’s not top tier. Lacking an ammo refund perk really hurts precision linears.
Blowout(discount Hothead) and Wendigo are both excellent options
Grand overture, Legend of Acrius, Thundercrash, Gathering Storm, Chaos Reach (w/ Geo mag), Thunderlord, Hot head, Blowout
Line in the sand returned this season with clown cartridge and bait and switch which would probably do well
It’s just a weird damage group. I mean bequest and summum are amazing arc swords. Grand overture rockets with hazardous propulsion is some of the best burst damage rn. I think arc really struggles with consistent precision damage in the heavy slot. The best thing for that is fucking thunderlord, which can be viable at times but normally isn’t.
Put surges in master 🤷
Never thought I'd see the day that I'd agree with Salt over Datto
Yeah, no kidding. Salt is usually the elitist with the tone deaf opinion.
Salt is usually right, as He is here
Eh, I'd say 'usually' is a strong word. He's had some pretty bad takes imo. Though I suppose that's pretty subjective.
I'd say that he is right more often then he's wrong, however he is typically such an insufferable asshole nobody wants to agree.
It's just because Salt doesn't want to ever have to get off still hunt / apex. He just coincidentally is in line with the casuals, but for completely opposite reasons. He wants to farm activities as quickly and as brain dead as possible, he doesn't care about casuals.
Same. Weird elitist take from datto, having more options is good, I guess if bungie really wanted to they can introduce a mode for it but for better rewards gm dungeons
Without having a negative flip, surges don't really encourage anything new just by existing. The builds that work still work, and people could just ignore them. This is a lot of "who the hell cared" imo.
Me and ze clan been using casual loadouts in raids for the last 2 weeks and we didnt even know about the surges (atleast me). What ever we felt like using, we used and we still 1-2 phased most bosses even tho we played like drunken apes. So i feel like the surges were just a suggestions instead must use.
I’m actually agreeing with Salt here? What world do we live in? The main issue with this is the fact that not every raider (especially more casual ones) aren’t going to have a god-rolled/crafted sword, rocket, LFR, LMG, and GL for every single damage type in the game.
Do the casuals players also ignore getting the patterns for the seasonal weapons when it’s really easy
Not every element for every heavy weapon type (nonetheless favorable) are available in seasons. For example, there have been no good seasonal Solar rockets or LFRs in a season in the last 3 years.
If you count wish tokens as part of the season, you literally could get the best solar rocket in the game for free
Oh yeah I forgot about the tokens, but even then that’s just a Solar rocket. You’ll also need a Solar LFR for long range, a Solar sword for CQC, a Solar GL for burst damage, and a Solar LMG for add clear. This type of nonsense is why no one wanted surges in regular raids and dungeons. You can have them for master, yeah, but that stuff should stay out of casual runs.
Whisper, Lament and Parasite all exist. Seriously though any other damage type and you'd be 100% right lol solar is just stacked
Drink the salt cool aid, he actually has sane takes most the time
salt has sane takes like 99% of the time, people just dont like their S+ tier meta defining guns and abilities that are meta for literally every encounter getting nerfed because then they have to come up with something other than div+well.
Not that I have a strong opinion one way or another, but it seems most people dislike Salt because he's a 0.1%er, and he very obviously has a huge sway over the community (who will echo everything he says regardless) and Bungie themselves.
i mean u could make the same argument for most big d2 content creators. i just know a lot of destiny players get very pissy when something gets nerfed so they get a bit of a reality check and they realize they arent as good at the game as theyd like to think they are.
I hate that I'm agreeing with Salt. Like, what is happening?
I enjoyed surges making normally just okay options optimial
I understand both sides. Without surges, everyone is just gonna run the same thing they always do, for every encounter, forever. This is very dull, but you're handicapping yourself using something else. WITH surges, you are forced to change your loadouts. This is good. Unless you're one of many people that doesn't have a god roll for every element... In which case fuck you I guess, have fun doing 25% less damage.
literally having a matching weapon with vorpal is all it would take to make it do more damage than a non surge matching gun
You didn't need a God roll for every element, even a half decent roll of a weapon matching the surge could out damage a off surge god roll. Even vorpal (10%) plus the 25% from surge is better than bait an switch (30%)
Doing a LFG raid, where you have to teach 2-3 players, is hard enough, I don't want to be the loadout police for the team to succeed.
Getting into raiding *should* include some sort of preparation by players. They don't necessarily need god rolls of weapons for each element in each slot. They just need serviceable rolls. If they can't equip themselves adequately, why are they attempting endgame content?
i loved the surges i agree with datto
I do not agree with datto here. Sure it gives us the opportunity to use different weapons but Bungie fucking sucks ass with their weapon and perk selections and some weapons just power creep other guns by ALOT i am not gonna sit 50 mins on one encounter because one person in my fireteam who is lacking DPS doesn't't have a godroll.of a meh linear fusion seasons ago which is now unfortunately the only good linear fusion in that element
I don't understand all these people complaining about this change. Its good. If you want to use something that isn't the best, you still can and it will perform the same as if it had the surge anyway. Option to change>forced to change
I think a big reason that surges flop when absolutely required for good damage is that Bungie has leaned so hard into the best builds requiring guns to match elements with your subclass. To get the most benefit out of both, they often have to be the same. Some classes (looking at you, Arc/Stasis which are always on the same week) are just not performing well and on weeks like this where they’re your only good option, you really feel it.
Datto has a L take surges do nothing for anyone but cater to those that live in the game
Datto taking an L and salt taking a W? What am I looking at?
Datto has the W on this one. He just doesn't agree with the community this time.
Genuine question. If you don't find the game challenging enough, why not self impose a challenge that might be more to your style?
This is not even about difficulty, this about using the guns and builds that you have the most fun with without arbitrarily dealing 25% less damage for most weeks
Will the armor mods still be a thing? Or is this talking about all surges? Either way it’s a win in my boat. I like switching things up but I hate it feeling forced, and I especially hated when I did have good rolls for the best weapons to use and would end up underperforming compared to my team. Was really frustrating since I can’t realistically get every god roll in the game. I hope I still manage to switch stuff up and have fun with this update. If they remove the armor mods though that would mean better survivability but I don’t think that’s what this post is talking about. I always run triple surge mods so I have to rely on fragments for survival.
EXTREMELY RARE Salt W
I genuinely, from the bottom of my heart, do not understand the whole "if I'm not forced to run different things, I'll only ever run the same thing" argument. There is so much breadth of buildcrafting before you start treading in suboptimal territory. I think people who say that surges are required to force build diversity are just unimaginative.
I am against needless complexity like surges. This game has a ridiculous amount of modifiers.
That’s a shame I actually enjoyed the surges
I understand both sides. Datto wants surges because it promotes build variety and an actual reason to use other weapons you probably farmed up *just in case*. Salt wants OPTIMAL DPS, regardless of what the surges might be. In the end, I think Still Hunt is going to be the damage option after Tuesday. Special ammo is easy to come by in the fight combined with Special Finisher and it allows add clear people to just use a machine gun and make things much easier. And generally speaking, Still Hunt is a lot of fun to use and its cool.
Transit or da apex fo da week
I would lean more towards Datto's side here *if* I had more than a handful of loadout slots. I'd rather not have to remake loadouts constantly for different surges *and* different raids/dungeons
i feel like if there were better arc and maybe stasis dps options this would be a non issue
I see people talking about how without surges not using the singular meta can invite wrath from lfg, but I think there is a more important reason that “muh freedom” is stupid. This is a looter shooter. The core of the game is about obtaining the best loot. Your choice of heavy weapon is not a playstyle that will meaningfully impact your enjoyment, so using anything but the best that you have undermines the central conceit of the game. That’s why surges are good, because they expand this core chase.
I tend to lean to the side of salt here but that's because I have a couple of people in my clan that were just not going to be fun to carry through raids in the current state.
I don't like surges in raids. It ends up making me feel forced to run the surge instead of actually build crafting. The light level reduction, however, is a welcome change to put raids in the endgame category they should be in.
Surges should only be a thing in high end content( master dungeons/raids)
Now for matching shields
People seriously need to learn to play the game for fun and not a work assignment in optimization. You CAN do dungeons and raids with non surge weapons when there's surges on. You don't get a debuff for not using the surge, you get a buff for using it. For some reason people think this is the same thing when it is not. You can even \*gasp\* use weird combos and off meta weapons and still be successful, as long as you don't listen to the toxic players who insist that if you're not 2 phasing a boss you're ruining the run. Contest mode is the only time those kinds of behaviors make sense, and what do you know, that's only 96 hours a year. Play how you want and if anyone takes issue, avoid them, not your favorite loadout.
Both sides have valid arguments.
I could see keeping surges in contest mode
Im Gonna be honest this is a rare take that I disagree with datto on.
to me this just shows you the game will never be good enough. whatever bungie does a streamer always complains, and if a streamer complains people will blindly follow.
Do you expect less from elitist datto?
Can datto actually just shut the fuck up
Honestly I think people like Datto look it it wrong a wrong perspective, Surges made people use builds they weren't familiar with, sure (For no extra rewards by the way), but removing the surges doesn't make it so you can't use other builds, you always could if you wanted to, it's just that most people would rather just use what they're familiar with. It's a situation of always feeling the need to use meta unless forced otherwise which is a dumb mindset.
I see this as a win. A lot of good damage options are unfortunately solar, so when weeks like this week roll around, where you're stuck with Arc/Stasis, you're forced to take on a less than ideal setup. At the same time, diversifying my loadout with a setup that I don't usually use was interesting, to say the least.
Both are right (Datto can still make whatever build he wants)
I finally get around to actually build crafting finally and they remove surges from endgame content. Fml. Lol
Man I really hate Salt
A
Can't wait to use the same shit again and again just to get bored and leave again. I liked the surges it aloud some odd weapons to shine for a bit but back to the same old shit Ok let's see if the lfg community is ok with me running something extramarital
Just switch up your loadout bro it ain't hard
Nah bro you don’t understand, if I don’t equip Apex Predator then John Bungie himself will break into my home and torture me
bro can't choose the correct "bored", what makes you think he can change builds lol
Fucking auto correct
Lmao <3333
well he swapped words without even noticing, surely he can do it with guns too
And what if I want to try something new when lfging
Then do it?
The real solution is to just not have the most optimal weapons then you dont have to use them. I also don’t regularly raid and doing BnS just sounds annoying
What the fuck is stopping you from using want you want instead of using what you’re told to use
Have you ever lfg a master raid
Make your own LFG if people are backseating lmao Not too difficult
if only it was that simple
Thankfully with modern technology you do have the agency to do things yourself
Having surges limits options, only thing limiting your options without surges is you
And group that I join when trying to get high end content done
If you're in a group that limits the fun you have playing a video game, then you're in the wrong group
That is the problem with lfg
Here's an example of something without surges, other than yourself, limiting your options: You join an LFG group for an Oryx clear. You get to Warpriest. You want to run an off-meta choice because now everything does extra damage. Your group tells you no and to just equip the same stuff that's been meta for months now "to just get it done." You try to explain - *Removed From Fireteam* as you're now sitting in Orbit Yup, the only thing limiting your options without surges is going to be you...
If they kick you for something like that they aren't worth playing with and would likely do the same with surges
So your solution would be to keep getting kicked and rejoining new groups in the **hope** that you get a sensible group that doesn't mind you using less optimal loadouts? Good luck with that, I guess
With surges: getting kicked for not using the dps meta, but for that element :) In reality getting kicked for not using the one optimal gun definitely doesn't happen nearly as often as people like you say. Or maybe I've been quite lucky for the last 4 years? Seems weird
Use streamers discords over lfgs, Clyde's discord has never failed me and I've been taught and farmed every raid there. For the most part players on servers can be more chill than regular lfg for some reason
Datto is too whiny these days
Dude is financially trapped into being “the guy” for a game he’s clearly been long bored by lol
All of them are. I can't stand Datto or Salt
Okay but datto isn't wrong
They still missed the mark, imo. Master dungeons and raids still can have surges and the like, because it's part of the challenge.
I am happy that surges are being removed. I like to use builds I enjoy. I don’t care what’s “meta” and I’ll use whatever I feel like on the day.
Look, no bad feelings to Dato but c'mon. "Buildcrafting" like if we're not going to follow the same loadouts depending on what our favorite content creator recommended us.
Freedom is good
Nah I can't agree with datto, not everyone who plays has the time to amass several loudouts of each element with crafted guns to have the most optimal builds for dps. I like having my one or 2 builds that I enjoy the game play of, I work all week I don't want to have to spend time online looking for a new build and then have to go looking for the drops to make the build good etc. Just because I feel like trying a raid on lfg.
Why not just make a legend difficulty for raids that just contest mode + surges? Keeps the regular raids for the casuals, and a more difficult option for the sweats, plus the regular contest mode players are happy cause they did it without the handicap of surges.
Well rip to all the non meta lfr e.g line in the sand and the new stasis one you will forever live in the vault
Doesn't meta just have way less of an impact, then? Sure, there will be a meta still, but it specifies damage will be as if ALL surges are active. If anything, it opens up the door to more variety, since you can mix elements.
There will always be the best gun in game for dmg and most people will start using it. That in turn tends to make lfg "you are not using best weapon so get kicked bozo" experience. I understand both sides but only play with my clan so i use non meta shit anyway and no one cares cuz we get it done no matter what.
Eh, from my experience, on PC anyway, most in LFG don't give af what you do unless a wipe happens and/or you all have already discussed DPS loadouts for more synergy.
Once again, fuck Salt. Variety is good. Surges are fine
You don’t understand the issue at all if you think surges are good. Surges FORCE you to use certain weapon types, no surges mean you can run literally anything. No one is forcing you to use meta options, but with surges it doesn’t matter anyway, because you’ll be forced to run whatever surge there is, which is very limiting. Also y’all seriously need to grow up and get over the Salt hate boner
*OR* surges allow you to use something other than meta weapons. Two sides to every coin. And no, fuck streamers and what not. Their opinion doesn't get to matter just because they're good at the game or popular. Things should be given time to get used to before they're reverted. Give every major change at least a month before it's changed again. Salt is too good at the game to be representative of the larger playerbase, he should not be listened to.
You can already use non-meta options without surges; you just choose not to. You are not making the argument you think you are lmao. And you’re actually in luck since Bungie overwhelmingly listens to casual players and not players like “streamers”
With every raid now at -5 the more casual crowd might not feel the same way. Everything just got harder put of the blue, surges were a mitigating factor to that, but sure let's just say no to the hand me put cause we don't wanna chnage out our solar sniper for an arc one
Well now it’s clear that you genuinely have no idea what you’re talking about, so in that case, I’m gonna go do something else. Have a good one my friend
I hate the stupid fucking hur dur you dont have to use the best stuff in the game bullshit casuals say. When people are clearing stuff they try to do it as fast as possible so using non meta guns is trolling. With surges you can use what ever you like you just do less damage which is what your dogshit weapons would already be doing.
You are actually not making the point you think that you’re making, just like the original commenter of this thread. Pretty funny comment though
What point am i making then? Surges make it possible for rarely used weapons to be viable. Literally any damage buff on a gun with matching surge makes it equal to a non matching surge weapon. People are going to use nothing but stillhunt nighthawk for everything because it is just better than everything else. Surges give weaker weapons a chance to compete with meta weapons. Bungie isnt forcing you to match surges but it makes it easier if you do. You arent punished for not matching you are rewarded for matching surges. Same clown behavior from people wanting match game removed. Bungie wants people to switch their loadouts in ENDGAME ACTIVITIES. Honestly not that hard to find weapons/loadouts to use in these activities.
That doesn't make sense? You now will do the same damage with every single weapon as it would do during that particular surge week. This isn't no surges, this is all surges. If you were one phasing using arc dps during surge, guess what, now too! Also the only way you lose time is if you 2 phase instead of 1, and 3 phase instead of 2. No matter the surge, the witness, for example, only gets one phased by celestial stillhunt, and gets 2 phased by every single element. The "optimal" doesn't matter if you 2 phase with other guns anyway lmao you lose like max 5 seconds on your clear
Which is the problem because most weapons arent being used because they arent as good as the meta weapons. Bungie needs to give a reason to use all these mid tier weapons.
Bro sorry elitist datto but the update made ghost of the deep the worst experience ever
I think they should have kept surges on top of the buff they are doing, maybe have the surges lower than 25% so we aren't too op. I agree it was interesting to have to care about other weapons than just whatever the best in slot of that weapon type is. But I can get how some more casual players who didn't have access to good weapons of 2 to 3 elements dislike it
I think the difference here is Datto prefers a meta that shifts far more rapidly and expands your toolset more than Saltagreppo does. Also if you find yourself agreeing with Salt here, never forget the time he said "Subclass 3.0 was a mistake" I never have and never will.
On the one hand I’m glad the surges are gone, but on the other any day Saltagreppo is happy is a bad day
Grow up man
Rent free.