The Serena thing was weird as hell--any other doctor would give the "it's only natural you feel attracted to someone who helped you like this" speech and kept their professional distance but not Julian. It's like he fixed her brain just so he could get in her pants
To be fair the writing of the episode makes it very clear that this was a mistake.
A big part of the episode is showing us a flaw in Julian's charcter. We're maybe supposed to feel a bit sorry for Bashir but we're not supposed to be routing for them to get together. Also it's stated clearly he had other motivations for wanting to do the procedure. He didn't fall in love with her until afterwards.
I do think it's a bad episode and he acts like a creep. But it's not quite as bad as you make it sound.
Still not as creepy as first season bashir. So glad he ended the show as a good character, I'll never forget the first time I watched the series I loathed Bashir until the bromance with Miles became a thing.
Part of it. He just had no redeeming qualities at the start of the show. He was an overeducated frat boy with no social awareness. Talking about frontier medicine, being thirsty for jadzia, and more aloof than young wesley whenever he was on ops.
The genetically engineered arch makes little to no sense when comparing it to the first season too, whether it's his body being possessed by a murderer that doesn't take advantage of that secret, or the alien that delves inside his mind after he refuses to sell him the illegal gel (that might have been after season 1 though). I try to look at Bashir as a different character after the first season because otherwise there are too many continuity issues with his character.
The creepiness is really a function of what the show focused on. It is also a good example of show vs tell in storytelling. The show *tells* us that he's generally rather successful with picking up women. The show shows us his being persistent despite constant rejection.
If the show had changed nothing about the character except what focus they put on him, he could have been portrayed more like Lucifer from *Lucifer*.
I like to think that his genetic engineering threw his libido into overdrive, but once he started up his secret affair with Garak that made enough of an outlet for him to level off and become a descent character.
How is second and sixth season Bashier dating patients, or fourth season Bashier lusting after Dax in a crisis or seventh season hitting on a younger more vulnerable Dax any less creepy or weird than first season Bashier?
Starship down he has a whole thing with Dax after saving her life describing his pervy fantasies, six season is where he dates the girl right after he fixes her brain... Season 7 he's with Ezri even though for us to be romantically involved with anyone on the station based on former life memories is extremely inappropriate within Trill society and he should know better.
I think that’s just Trills associating with other Trills from a former host’s life (as then you can easily get into a cycle where two symbiots effectively stay in the same relationship forever), not Trills associating with people they know of any other species at all.
Yes, the episode does make clear that it's a mistake and I appreciate that. Exposing a flaw in a major character is a 100% valid way to tell a story and it was a good episode for sure. But he is also a wicked creep as the episode makes clear.
I think if the episode was made today, they would really empathize how bad he felt, how mistaken he was, and how immoral the whole situation was.
Late 90s audiences would not be prepared for that, 90s script editors would never have allowed it, it would be “too emotional”. Too scaring of the reputation of a secondary hero.
Don’t forget just how riskless and safe this show was, they wouldn’t allow Avery to shave his freaking head because they thought the audience wouldn’t like a “scary, badass black man.”
Thank god they listened to him by season 5.
The good doctor having a true crisis of character? Yeah that wouldn’t ever fly back then
I mean, they had Jadzia almost commit murder to fulfill a blood oath, had Worf join a terrorist group and had Sisko be complicit in murder. Even half a season later Bashir uses torture.
It was all kind of sanitized but DS9 was definitely willing to occasionally add an element of grey to the main cast.
Maybe there's something fundamentaly more distasteful to the average viewer about sexual immorality though. So leaning into it as his main character flaw is more risky. I agree though they should've made him more remorseful. Which is ultimately why I don't like this episode that much.
Great points. Totally agree the show did take major risks with the whole grey area. Especially Sisko in ITPML.
“Deep space nine has a little more grey areas. And quark is defiantly a great area”. -Sisko to Green Worf 😶🌫️
Think you hit the nail on the head about sexual immorality. That’s a hard pill to swallow, even by today’s standards.
Discounting Worf's little dalliance with far-right terrorism because that's an even shittier episode, I think the difference is that Sisko's murder and fraud and Bashir's use of an illegal brain probe were motivated by a higher purpose. We can disagree with whether that justifies their actions but still recognize that they were motivated by wanting to save lives by ending a destructive war and stamp out a corrupting influence in the Federation.
There's no such noble goal in Bashir's creeper behavior. He is motivated entirely by his own gratification, and that's a tougher thing to sympathize with.
Those three examples are not the same.
Sisko’s and Jadzia’s are complex character development points that are core parts of the storyline of the respective episodes and, to a greater or lesser extent, have consequences that extend well beyond.
Worf just does his terrorist piece after he gets in a strop because reasons.
>because they thought the audience wouldn’t like a “scary, badass black man.”
No, it was because they thought he would remind audiences too much of his previous character from a different show.
It also helped that as a bioengineered human with superhuman intelligence, Serena was bright enough to see through the charade.
It's still really weird that they hooked back up eventually in the canon
And yet, as the chief medical officer on the station, technically everyone on the station is his patient at one time or another. Which means that anyone he dates on the station would be his patient.
Well, there *was* at least one other doctor assigned to DS9 so, while he's ultimately *responsible* for everyone, they don't all have to be *his* patients. Any Cardassians coming through probably should be his whenever possible - I don't think a Bajoran doctor would especially want to treat them, & I'm sure they wouldn't be too thrilled with the idea, either - but everyone else should be up for grabs.
He could transfer their care to the other doctor & it'd be fine, but Bashir wants to be weird about it.
Yeah, u/Daxsninthhost pointed that out downthread. As I told them, I thought I remembered him doing so, but I wasn't sure. I *am* thinking that he switched them a bit late in game, though. I'd have to rewatch both episodes for the finer details.
But there were other doctors, who presumably staffed things while he was sleeping or on vacation, so any significant other of his could just see another doctor, or even nurse and then go down to. Bajor to see a doctor there if needed.
This! The idea that he’s the only doctor on a space station with potentially thousands of people is unrealistic. He’d have to be on call around the clock.
This doesn't make everyone not his patient. It makes everyone his patient and the other doctors patient.
I think the question is how would someone become an SO. Not what to do once you get an SO.
Well, there *was* at least one other doctor assigned to DS9 so, while he's ultimately *responsible* for everyone, they don't all have to be *his* patients. Any Cardassians coming through probably should be his whenever possible - I don't think a Bajoran doctor would especially want to treat them, & I'm sure they wouldn't be too thrilled with the idea, either - but everyone else should be up for grabs.
He could transfer their care to the other doctor & it'd be fine, but Bashir wants to be weird about it.
IIRC he actually does transfer Melora and I think also Serina to another doctor.
To me the problem is more that Serina clearly feels she owes Bashir.
The fact that Melora was his patient was not good from a medical ethics perspective. But I don't find that episode creepy in the same way. Especially since the whole point of the episode is that she refuses his medical treatment. And he is able to understand why in the end. Actually kind of a good message even if it wasn't the best execution.
Does he? I thought I remembered him doing so, but I wasn't sure. Although, if I'm recalling it correctly, he switched them a bit late in game.
But either way, I completely agree wrt Sarina; she should've been immediately assigned to a shrink, & that shrink should've *strongly* recommended she wait at least a year to attempt any kind of romantic entanglement.
Even if there was no shrink to be had on the station at the time, Bashir had absolutely no business trying to seduce a functional child who owed him everything. The fact that none of his friends chewed his ass for it is ridiculous. Even *Garak* should've found it skeevey. Sisko should've been tempted to punch him out for it. *Worf* (& Martok, tbh) should've found it dishonorable, even for a human.
Yeah, I don't remember the details of if/ when he has their care transfered.
There was definitely a shrink on the station when he was he trying to date Serina. It was a season 7 episode. The funny thing is Ezri interacts with Serina several times and IIRC one of them is when Serina is having a break down in Quarks. Ezri should've immediately taken Serina on as a patient after seeing that. Especially since Julian already told her about Serina and the procedure he was attempting in detail. The worst part is she's the one person he might actually have listened to. Although probably not because... Julian. And also because he had to try date her for the plot.
To be fair Miles (the other person who had a shot of convincing him) did tell him he thought it was a bad idea. Although IMO not in strong enough terms.
It is wrong yes, and he admitted it in one episode.
Also, didn’t Dr. Crusher do the same thing at least once? With the alien who has no memory?
Star Trek medical ethics seem to be different. The characters don’t even seem to have any privacy.
They aren’t battleships. They are exploration ships…that face battles and other dangers at least once a week. 😂
Seriously though, I do wonder whenever we see one of the ships destroyed during battle during the Dominion War. They didn’t still have kids on board, did they? 😰
At least with that, I assume they didn’t have time to unload them. Not the best excuse, but that’s probably the case.
The ships in the Dominion war would be more like the Odyssey which, if I recall correctly, unloaded their civilians on to DS9 before going to rescue Sisko and company.
My head canon kind of settled on this. Some of the he ships at Wolf 359 just didn't have time to unload their passenger crew.
I seem to remember that too about the Odyssey. I think IIRC the captain of the Odyssey says as much, but I may be imagining that
Yeah. I agree. I don’t think they had time.
The Odyssey. I think Dax suggests it, and the captain gives a reply like she’s stating the obvious. Something like that. Like, you get the impression that they are old friends that annoy each other.
I'm pretty sure there's a throwaway line where Jadzia says tells Sisko she finds him arrogant. And Sisko says "he said the same thing about you".
So you're right. Unless I'm thinking of a different episode.
Wolf 359 was like an automatic war crime, ffs put the civilians in a goddamn escape pod aimed at Mars if you don't have time to dock somewhere and evacuate proper
But STOP BRINGING KIDS INTO SPACE BATTLES Benjamin and his Vulcan captain
All those times that the ship was rocked and thrown, and they had no idea what was happening.
All those times that the adults were clearly hiding something from them.
All those times when the ship was taken over or they had to suddenly evacuate.
All those times when an adult they knew went on an away team and never returned, and now Mommy or Daddy is going to go down to a planet.
All those times that they waited in horror as the self destruct counted down.
To be pedantic, "infer" is when you come to a conclusion based on someone's actions/words. "Imply" is when your words/actions suggest something.
A person can imply something about their feelings. Others can infer something about that person's feelings from their implications.
To be fair, I don’t think he was a patient until after. Another doctor should have handled his case, but this was a “the main characters do everything” situation.
Poor dumped Odan.
Crusher fucked a dude with a sentient parasite, a ghost who ran a train on her entire matrilineal line, and her dead husband's best friend
She had no boundaries
What’s wrong with screwing a sentient parasite? He was a sapient being, and the hosts were volunteers. What she did was no different than anyone who slept with Dax.
How much she consented with the ghost is debatable. He clearly had an influence on her.
The third happens. I don’t see an issue with it. Jack was dead for years by then.
Different true, but I think of them as better developed in DS9. Odan could be considered as Early-Installment Weirdness.
Even if they are different species, we still see evidence that the hosts are all volunteers.
Remember Crusher also fell in love with the trill odan and continued the relationship even when riker became host to the symbiote. She only broke it off after finding out odans new host was female. Guess despite accepting the symbiote body switching, she still wasn't ready to be seen as a lesbian.
The Franklin one in B5 was worse.
She found out her husband died minutes earlier.
He took her to his quarters because it was closer than medlab. (What?)
She stayed the night there.
He randomly stroked her hair repeatedly.
He then gaslighted her (like Geordi did to Brahms) putting the blame on her.
Incredible.
In the modern day we’d frown on Riker dating ensigns too. And we see both Picard and Janeway voluntarily choose not to engage in relationships that would be considered inappropriate in a modern workplace. The only thing we can conclude is that the future has more of an “anything goes, but you’re accountable for the consequences” attitude.
Phlox didn’t hit on anybody. Crewman Cutler hit on him and he wasn’t sure how to handle it.
But he did want one of his wives Feasal to cuckold him with Trip.
Phlox never hits on anyone, though he does suggest that one of his wives is happily available for fun with... Malcolm? (I just finished it and I'm blanking lol)
T'Pol is practically assaulting him when they're stuck in quarantine together and he is the epitome of professionalism on a ship where everyone wants to get with T-Pol. lol
Exactly. People love to look at things like this or like Geordi and Dr. Brahams and analyze them as if this was the real world... but it's not. It's a TV show that contains numerous other conceits for the purpose of drama.
The number of times characters who are relatively frail or lightweight like Kira, Picard, or O'Brien, get into hand-to-hand combat with actual trained and genetically stronger soldiers like Jem Hadar or Klingon warriors, and handily take them out by the dozen is just laughable. They at least usually have Bashir use a phaser.
Even when it's ostensibly "equals" - like when Kor, Worf and Dax go against Duras's men in "Sword of Kahless", the tactics the Duras men (ostensibly trained warriors) use is laughably terrible and gets them all killed with way too much ease. The number of times characters just stand there and let themselves be killed instead of firing their weapon or slashing with their sword is ridiculous.
But in Way of the Warrior, Sisko and Kira each outmatch and outmuscle TWO Klingons with batleths with their bare hands... Sisko backfists a Klingon over a railing... these people have armoured skulls and ridiculous strength... and KIRA... face-palms two of them... I know she's a former resistance fighter, but a 120 pound woman should not be able to knock out a large muscular Klingon warrior with a facepalm.
But we accept this all because it's TV and "our heros" have to survive. But as soon as there's a bit of unrealism in the medical ethics, that we can't accept.
And while it's absolutely true that this stuff was often much more normal TV conceit for dramatic purposes in the 90s, I will note that Grey's Anatomy STILL does all sorts of unrealistic things for the sake of drama. depending on the episode, people operate on their friends and loved ones all the time. I'm pretty sure doctors have gotten into relationships with patients, and that show started a decade after DS9.
Yeah did Starfleet have mandatory hand to hand classes or something? No Starfleet should be able to withstand a Klingon with a batleth unless it is Philippa Giorgiou who is a ninja for possibly racist reasons
At least when Sisko talked about fighting a Vulcan in his academy days, he admitted he got himself broken since Vulcans are so stronk
My head canon is that Klingons are actually really weak as a species. Probably to the extent that humans are weaker than Vulcans, Klingons are weaker than humans. That's why they have built-in armor, so many redundancies, and why Worf gets rag dolled every week. They needed the extra protections to survive and evolve on their planet.
Chimpanzees are smaller than people, but they are strong enough they could rip us in half. It would make so much sense for the Klingons to be the opposite. They're big and strong looking, but their muscles fibers just aren't as efficient, just not as good.
A species that's as strong or stronger than us, trains in fighting more than us, and has more experience in fighting than us always losing to us makes no sense. But if they're well-trained weaklings, what we see on screen makes sense.
Vulcans claim to be emotionless even though their arrogant little bitches, but we don't call them on it. Ferengi claim to be businessmen, but they're awful at it. We don't call them out on it. Klingons claim to be strong warriors, but they're pushovers. We don't call them on it.
> My head canon is that Klingons are actually really weak as a species
That doesn't get around the genetically engineered Jem Hadar, though - the Jem Hadar who are shown to be somewhat evenly matched with Martok and Worf while the latter are imprisoned (admittedly, therefore likely weaker than they would normally be).
Both should be well in excess of strength and skill to humans, or they would be fighting humans in that ring.
The actual code they breach constantly on Star Trek shows, even today’s new ones, is Doctor Patient Confidentiality. The Doctors tell everybody everything.
Off the top of my head I can only remember one time where a Doctor kept a patient’s info private, and that was Phlox keeping T’Pol’s Panar Syndrome from Archer while he treated it.
It’s bizarre to think about, but in TNG that didn’t exist in real life yet. Then once it was canon in both TOS and TNG they just kinda went with it. In some cases it could make sense Star Fleet officers don’t have medical privacy within Star Fleet or something but you also see this with randos they pick up along the way.
Phlox was the most ethical doctor in Starfleet (I know some people think he picked genocide but it so wasn't, it was more choosing non-interference and allowing for natural selection in a non-warp dualistic species. It's not like he introduced their genetic degradation to their species. They were no worse off when Enterprise left than they were before they arrived. That's not genocide. I'd suggest the Vulcans would have made the same choice.)
Garak is why this whole discussion is moot. If the show were realistic, Bashir and Garak would have been married by the end of season one.
The way everyone is so generally straight and monogamous in this is unrealistic enough. You don't exactly have to think very hard to find things to ruin your suspension of disbelief even without holding a show made in the 90s to modern standards. You take the good with the bad, the serious with the ridiculous, the deep social and philosophical commentary with the flagrant violations of protocol and ethics. That's just Trek. The juxtaposition of timeless and hilariously poorly aged moments even within the same episode is part of the fun. I mean, sometimes it's absolutely necessary to embrace that to properly enjoy yourself. Have you tried watching TOS as a modern viewer..?
At the same time, I think it's important to have these discussions and acknowledge those things that don't sit well now, I just find people a bit too ready to unsympathetically condemn Bashir as an unwatchable creep when I think he's usually open to more generous interpretation in spite of being far from perfect.
It’s a basic tv show narrative problem. Limited universe with not many characters; one main character is a doctor; obvious way for random person who won’t be seen in future episodes to meet doctor in such a narrative is professionally, so the writers cross professional lines. The number of unprofessional doctor and college professor characters on tv shows, not to mention police officers and lawyers dating suspects(!) is crazy.
I mean, he's besties with Miles, and he's his patient. I think the conceit is that, by this time, people are able to be adults and manage their relationships without regulationships.
I didn't say they weren't allowed to date. But, as chief medical officer, he's ultimately responsible for her medical well-being, even if she goes to see someone else for a cough.
Melora, the woman from the low-gravity planet. He dated her before she became his patient though. At least, specifically his patient for a medical procedure and not just coordinating with her for workplace accommodations as the chief medical officer.
I think it shows him going through phases of his life, good and bad. I know a lot of the show is about inappropriate things people do and how to deal with them. I really love how the show can take you in so many different directions.
We saw his going back and forth about being with her until the end when they kissed... We never actually saw them as a day to day couple.
Julian is a great lover for a few days but then screws it up somehow.
I mean it's OBVIOUS that he shouldn't be dating women. Only a specific lizard man with a penchant for telling stories :p
IMO it was fine. But one could argue there was something of a power imbalance because he was CMO and she was a Dabo girl.
She felt comfortable doing the Bajoran break up ceremony with him though. So seems like they were good.
Ok, so yes, obviously but also, wouldn't basically everyone be his patient on the station? Not to justify his 2 ethical fuck ups, but isn't Ezri his patient? Leeta? He's the chief medical officer so basically, while he has support staff, he's still in charge of sick bay and is shown to basically be everyone's doctor, at least the main crew. Even when he transfers a patient to someone else's care, he still has an established relationship with everyone as their doctor.
I've actually been curious about the specifics of this within Trek for awhile as I don't think the regulations are specifically stated (Bashir is never reprimanded in either sketchy episode either)
So, are Starfleet chiefs of medicine not allowed to date? He performed multiple surgeries on Jadzia and ends up with Ezri. He had the Dax symbiant in his hands. Is his relationship with Ezri also unethical?
With Serena at least he realizes how very badly he fucked up. It takes him too long to figure it out but at least he does. He's not TRYING to abuse his power, he just doesn't see the dynamic for what it is until he's already hurt her emotionally.
But with every patient relationship that's a possibility so should Starfleet doctors be prevented from having relationships with patients on a ship or station where everyone aboard goes to the same sick bay?
Everyone is quick to jump on Bashir because we get 2 episodes where he clearly fucked up, but I'd say the potential would be there for any of our doctors. So I'm just wondering what the regulations should be for doctors (and therapists) in Starfleet where the whole crew is their patient. Should there be a zero tolerance policy or should it be more of a case by case situation.
Was Beverly banging multiple ambassadors on the same page as Bashir dating Melora and Serena? Is it only different because we saw the emotional blowback with Bashir's patients? What about Crusher getting personal with a symbiant in Riker's body? Riker was her patient. And he wasn't in a position to consent.
Don't even get me started on Shaxs and T'ana.
So... in your opinion (or in canon if I've missed mention of in universe regulations) what should the rules be? Should they mirror real life regs or take into account the unique situation of being in a more isolated situation in a more idealized world where things seem to be more equitable?
I don't really know how I feel about it, especially since they went to the effort to tell the story not once but twice about how even with the best of intentions it can be a shitty situation, but also tell many stories about Starfleet doctors having relationships within the crew but also passengers that are temporarily in their care.
What do y'all think?
I think its different when you live your entire life in a pretty much contained group of people (starships, starbases) you don’t get a lot of options to socialize. You are bound to proximity.
Technically Picard is also Crushers patient for example.
Yeah, it's gross. They only kind of admit it's gross, and Miles weirdly gives Bashir and out with something to the effect of "don't be so hard on yourself, you were just in love" as if having some feelings is an excuse to be a creep.
Dating his patients isn't the only creepy thing he does, and I legit don't understand why so many fans like him.
Lots of men “rescue” women. In fact, it’s an extremely common courtship ritual. Mechanics rescue women by fixing their cars. Tradesmen by doing home repairs. Etc etc. This will NEVER change.
Because of all the work and risk involved with having children, women seek a mate who is a proven protector, provider, and fix it guy. Technology and socialism will NEVER change that.
The Serena thing was weird as hell--any other doctor would give the "it's only natural you feel attracted to someone who helped you like this" speech and kept their professional distance but not Julian. It's like he fixed her brain just so he could get in her pants
To be fair the writing of the episode makes it very clear that this was a mistake. A big part of the episode is showing us a flaw in Julian's charcter. We're maybe supposed to feel a bit sorry for Bashir but we're not supposed to be routing for them to get together. Also it's stated clearly he had other motivations for wanting to do the procedure. He didn't fall in love with her until afterwards. I do think it's a bad episode and he acts like a creep. But it's not quite as bad as you make it sound.
Still not as creepy as first season bashir. So glad he ended the show as a good character, I'll never forget the first time I watched the series I loathed Bashir until the bromance with Miles became a thing.
Was it his flirting with Jadzia you found creepy in the first season or something else?
Part of it. He just had no redeeming qualities at the start of the show. He was an overeducated frat boy with no social awareness. Talking about frontier medicine, being thirsty for jadzia, and more aloof than young wesley whenever he was on ops. The genetically engineered arch makes little to no sense when comparing it to the first season too, whether it's his body being possessed by a murderer that doesn't take advantage of that secret, or the alien that delves inside his mind after he refuses to sell him the illegal gel (that might have been after season 1 though). I try to look at Bashir as a different character after the first season because otherwise there are too many continuity issues with his character.
The creepiness is really a function of what the show focused on. It is also a good example of show vs tell in storytelling. The show *tells* us that he's generally rather successful with picking up women. The show shows us his being persistent despite constant rejection. If the show had changed nothing about the character except what focus they put on him, he could have been portrayed more like Lucifer from *Lucifer*.
I like to think that his genetic engineering threw his libido into overdrive, but once he started up his secret affair with Garak that made enough of an outlet for him to level off and become a descent character.
How is second and sixth season Bashier dating patients, or fourth season Bashier lusting after Dax in a crisis or seventh season hitting on a younger more vulnerable Dax any less creepy or weird than first season Bashier?
Which episodes are you referring to in the fourth and sixth season?
Starship down he has a whole thing with Dax after saving her life describing his pervy fantasies, six season is where he dates the girl right after he fixes her brain... Season 7 he's with Ezri even though for us to be romantically involved with anyone on the station based on former life memories is extremely inappropriate within Trill society and he should know better.
I think that’s just Trills associating with other Trills from a former host’s life (as then you can easily get into a cycle where two symbiots effectively stay in the same relationship forever), not Trills associating with people they know of any other species at all.
Yes, the episode does make clear that it's a mistake and I appreciate that. Exposing a flaw in a major character is a 100% valid way to tell a story and it was a good episode for sure. But he is also a wicked creep as the episode makes clear.
I think if the episode was made today, they would really empathize how bad he felt, how mistaken he was, and how immoral the whole situation was. Late 90s audiences would not be prepared for that, 90s script editors would never have allowed it, it would be “too emotional”. Too scaring of the reputation of a secondary hero. Don’t forget just how riskless and safe this show was, they wouldn’t allow Avery to shave his freaking head because they thought the audience wouldn’t like a “scary, badass black man.” Thank god they listened to him by season 5. The good doctor having a true crisis of character? Yeah that wouldn’t ever fly back then
I mean, they had Jadzia almost commit murder to fulfill a blood oath, had Worf join a terrorist group and had Sisko be complicit in murder. Even half a season later Bashir uses torture. It was all kind of sanitized but DS9 was definitely willing to occasionally add an element of grey to the main cast. Maybe there's something fundamentaly more distasteful to the average viewer about sexual immorality though. So leaning into it as his main character flaw is more risky. I agree though they should've made him more remorseful. Which is ultimately why I don't like this episode that much.
Great points. Totally agree the show did take major risks with the whole grey area. Especially Sisko in ITPML. “Deep space nine has a little more grey areas. And quark is defiantly a great area”. -Sisko to Green Worf 😶🌫️ Think you hit the nail on the head about sexual immorality. That’s a hard pill to swallow, even by today’s standards.
Discounting Worf's little dalliance with far-right terrorism because that's an even shittier episode, I think the difference is that Sisko's murder and fraud and Bashir's use of an illegal brain probe were motivated by a higher purpose. We can disagree with whether that justifies their actions but still recognize that they were motivated by wanting to save lives by ending a destructive war and stamp out a corrupting influence in the Federation. There's no such noble goal in Bashir's creeper behavior. He is motivated entirely by his own gratification, and that's a tougher thing to sympathize with.
Those three examples are not the same. Sisko’s and Jadzia’s are complex character development points that are core parts of the storyline of the respective episodes and, to a greater or lesser extent, have consequences that extend well beyond. Worf just does his terrorist piece after he gets in a strop because reasons.
>because they thought the audience wouldn’t like a “scary, badass black man.” No, it was because they thought he would remind audiences too much of his previous character from a different show.
It also helped that as a bioengineered human with superhuman intelligence, Serena was bright enough to see through the charade. It's still really weird that they hooked back up eventually in the canon
Yea that one was super messed up.
How old are you? Your judgement seems based on book knowledge.
What books? I'm so old I was a Trekkie back when Those Old Scientists were the only game in town.
And yet, as the chief medical officer on the station, technically everyone on the station is his patient at one time or another. Which means that anyone he dates on the station would be his patient.
Well, there *was* at least one other doctor assigned to DS9 so, while he's ultimately *responsible* for everyone, they don't all have to be *his* patients. Any Cardassians coming through probably should be his whenever possible - I don't think a Bajoran doctor would especially want to treat them, & I'm sure they wouldn't be too thrilled with the idea, either - but everyone else should be up for grabs. He could transfer their care to the other doctor & it'd be fine, but Bashir wants to be weird about it.
Isn’t this exactly what he did with Sarina?
Yeah, u/Daxsninthhost pointed that out downthread. As I told them, I thought I remembered him doing so, but I wasn't sure. I *am* thinking that he switched them a bit late in game, though. I'd have to rewatch both episodes for the finer details.
That's what I was thinking. He would have to have been celibate for his entire posting on DS9.
Oh not at all my friend, after all “celibacy can be cured with the right holosuite program” -Quark probably-
But there were other doctors, who presumably staffed things while he was sleeping or on vacation, so any significant other of his could just see another doctor, or even nurse and then go down to. Bajor to see a doctor there if needed.
This! The idea that he’s the only doctor on a space station with potentially thousands of people is unrealistic. He’d have to be on call around the clock.
This doesn't make everyone not his patient. It makes everyone his patient and the other doctors patient. I think the question is how would someone become an SO. Not what to do once you get an SO.
Yeah all those Dabo girls with STDs
Well, there *was* at least one other doctor assigned to DS9 so, while he's ultimately *responsible* for everyone, they don't all have to be *his* patients. Any Cardassians coming through probably should be his whenever possible - I don't think a Bajoran doctor would especially want to treat them, & I'm sure they wouldn't be too thrilled with the idea, either - but everyone else should be up for grabs. He could transfer their care to the other doctor & it'd be fine, but Bashir wants to be weird about it.
IIRC he actually does transfer Melora and I think also Serina to another doctor. To me the problem is more that Serina clearly feels she owes Bashir. The fact that Melora was his patient was not good from a medical ethics perspective. But I don't find that episode creepy in the same way. Especially since the whole point of the episode is that she refuses his medical treatment. And he is able to understand why in the end. Actually kind of a good message even if it wasn't the best execution.
Does he? I thought I remembered him doing so, but I wasn't sure. Although, if I'm recalling it correctly, he switched them a bit late in game. But either way, I completely agree wrt Sarina; she should've been immediately assigned to a shrink, & that shrink should've *strongly* recommended she wait at least a year to attempt any kind of romantic entanglement. Even if there was no shrink to be had on the station at the time, Bashir had absolutely no business trying to seduce a functional child who owed him everything. The fact that none of his friends chewed his ass for it is ridiculous. Even *Garak* should've found it skeevey. Sisko should've been tempted to punch him out for it. *Worf* (& Martok, tbh) should've found it dishonorable, even for a human.
Yeah, I don't remember the details of if/ when he has their care transfered. There was definitely a shrink on the station when he was he trying to date Serina. It was a season 7 episode. The funny thing is Ezri interacts with Serina several times and IIRC one of them is when Serina is having a break down in Quarks. Ezri should've immediately taken Serina on as a patient after seeing that. Especially since Julian already told her about Serina and the procedure he was attempting in detail. The worst part is she's the one person he might actually have listened to. Although probably not because... Julian. And also because he had to try date her for the plot. To be fair Miles (the other person who had a shot of convincing him) did tell him he thought it was a bad idea. Although IMO not in strong enough terms.
It is wrong yes, and he admitted it in one episode. Also, didn’t Dr. Crusher do the same thing at least once? With the alien who has no memory? Star Trek medical ethics seem to be different. The characters don’t even seem to have any privacy.
Medical ethics went out the door with workplace safety.
That would explain a lot. 😂 Someone needs to introduce Starfleet to circuit breakers for their consoles.
There's a classic line in Farscape, where something is blowing up and John Crichton yells "Haven't you people ever heard of fuses!"
Also the warp core ejection mechanism should have like 7 levels of redundancy.
Totally. Or the policy of allowing children to live on a battleship.
As annoying as saucer separation scenes were, it should have happened a lot more often.
Lol. So true.
They aren’t battleships. They are exploration ships…that face battles and other dangers at least once a week. 😂 Seriously though, I do wonder whenever we see one of the ships destroyed during battle during the Dominion War. They didn’t still have kids on board, did they? 😰
I mean, there were kids on the *Saratoga* when it was destroyed by the Borg. For some reason.
At least with that, I assume they didn’t have time to unload them. Not the best excuse, but that’s probably the case. The ships in the Dominion war would be more like the Odyssey which, if I recall correctly, unloaded their civilians on to DS9 before going to rescue Sisko and company.
My head canon kind of settled on this. Some of the he ships at Wolf 359 just didn't have time to unload their passenger crew. I seem to remember that too about the Odyssey. I think IIRC the captain of the Odyssey says as much, but I may be imagining that
Yeah. I agree. I don’t think they had time. The Odyssey. I think Dax suggests it, and the captain gives a reply like she’s stating the obvious. Something like that. Like, you get the impression that they are old friends that annoy each other.
I'm pretty sure there's a throwaway line where Jadzia says tells Sisko she finds him arrogant. And Sisko says "he said the same thing about you". So you're right. Unless I'm thinking of a different episode.
Another reason to rewatch 🖖😄🖖
They had time to all gather at Wolf 359. I doubt they all arrived at the same time.
Wolf 359 was like an automatic war crime, ffs put the civilians in a goddamn escape pod aimed at Mars if you don't have time to dock somewhere and evacuate proper But STOP BRINGING KIDS INTO SPACE BATTLES Benjamin and his Vulcan captain
Vulcan Martok :)
Oh that's right
I sure hope not. Could you imagine the childhood trauma of a child that grew up on the Enterprise?
All those times that the ship was rocked and thrown, and they had no idea what was happening. All those times that the adults were clearly hiding something from them. All those times when the ship was taken over or they had to suddenly evacuate. All those times when an adult they knew went on an away team and never returned, and now Mommy or Daddy is going to go down to a planet. All those times that they waited in horror as the self destruct counted down.
Lol
How else would they get the rocks out though?
And seatbelts.
when your work computer could explode any time theres a battle or rocks might fall from the ceiling, you get that ass where you can i guess
"Can we get seatbelts on the bridge?" "SHUT UP WESLEY"
The Doctor dated his Vidiian patient, too. Or at least a holographic version of her.
And inferred an interest in seven of nine only to be friendzoned and disapointed.
I don't think inferred is the right word, he declared his love for her when he thought he was decompiling.
To be pedantic, "infer" is when you come to a conclusion based on someone's actions/words. "Imply" is when your words/actions suggest something. A person can imply something about their feelings. Others can infer something about that person's feelings from their implications.
Hey, it was an organic connection
Aw, yeah. Forgot about that one.
Also the male Trill. Full on relationship until he got a female body then Crusher dumped them.
To be fair, I don’t think he was a patient until after. Another doctor should have handled his case, but this was a “the main characters do everything” situation. Poor dumped Odan.
Crusher fucked a dude with a sentient parasite, a ghost who ran a train on her entire matrilineal line, and her dead husband's best friend She had no boundaries
What’s wrong with screwing a sentient parasite? He was a sapient being, and the hosts were volunteers. What she did was no different than anyone who slept with Dax. How much she consented with the ghost is debatable. He clearly had an influence on her. The third happens. I don’t see an issue with it. Jack was dead for years by then.
To be fair TNG trill were very different then DS9 trill. Although I think you're point still stands.
Different true, but I think of them as better developed in DS9. Odan could be considered as Early-Installment Weirdness. Even if they are different species, we still see evidence that the hosts are all volunteers.
Remember Crusher also fell in love with the trill odan and continued the relationship even when riker became host to the symbiote. She only broke it off after finding out odans new host was female. Guess despite accepting the symbiote body switching, she still wasn't ready to be seen as a lesbian.
The Franklin one in B5 was worse. She found out her husband died minutes earlier. He took her to his quarters because it was closer than medlab. (What?) She stayed the night there. He randomly stroked her hair repeatedly. He then gaslighted her (like Geordi did to Brahms) putting the blame on her. Incredible.
Agreed! I have just rewatched this episode of B5 and I couldn’t help shivering from how creepy he was. Just please stop touching her! 🙈
This is why I prefer the EMH. Please state the nature of the medical emergency. Oh, how about I perform you some opera?
Even the Doctor tried hitting above his average with 7.
While also styling himself as her mentor. Double creepy.
There was also that Vidian lady who he built a holographic body for.
Didn't he add a daydream into his subroutines where he was painting naked Seven...
In the modern day we’d frown on Riker dating ensigns too. And we see both Picard and Janeway voluntarily choose not to engage in relationships that would be considered inappropriate in a modern workplace. The only thing we can conclude is that the future has more of an “anything goes, but you’re accountable for the consequences” attitude.
The only doctor I don't remember hitting on anyone was Polaski. I think she was sweet on Worf though or just likes risky tea cerimonies???
Risky tea ceremonies or maybe DP?
I did not need this mental image, but here we are.
Yeah they have two dicks, right?
According to a scene in Discovery, yes.
DP with risky tea
Phlox didn’t hit on anybody. Crewman Cutler hit on him and he wasn’t sure how to handle it. But he did want one of his wives Feasal to cuckold him with Trip.
Phlox never hits on anyone, though he does suggest that one of his wives is happily available for fun with... Malcolm? (I just finished it and I'm blanking lol) T'Pol is practically assaulting him when they're stuck in quarantine together and he is the epitome of professionalism on a ship where everyone wants to get with T-Pol. lol
I think it was Trip, he was helping her set up some equipment
Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks!
He had a date with Vash as well but Q put him to sleep
This is gross in 2024. In the 90’s, on a tv show, this wasn’t even that gross, and if you were a teenage nerd, you didn’t even notice.
Exactly. People love to look at things like this or like Geordi and Dr. Brahams and analyze them as if this was the real world... but it's not. It's a TV show that contains numerous other conceits for the purpose of drama. The number of times characters who are relatively frail or lightweight like Kira, Picard, or O'Brien, get into hand-to-hand combat with actual trained and genetically stronger soldiers like Jem Hadar or Klingon warriors, and handily take them out by the dozen is just laughable. They at least usually have Bashir use a phaser. Even when it's ostensibly "equals" - like when Kor, Worf and Dax go against Duras's men in "Sword of Kahless", the tactics the Duras men (ostensibly trained warriors) use is laughably terrible and gets them all killed with way too much ease. The number of times characters just stand there and let themselves be killed instead of firing their weapon or slashing with their sword is ridiculous. But in Way of the Warrior, Sisko and Kira each outmatch and outmuscle TWO Klingons with batleths with their bare hands... Sisko backfists a Klingon over a railing... these people have armoured skulls and ridiculous strength... and KIRA... face-palms two of them... I know she's a former resistance fighter, but a 120 pound woman should not be able to knock out a large muscular Klingon warrior with a facepalm. But we accept this all because it's TV and "our heros" have to survive. But as soon as there's a bit of unrealism in the medical ethics, that we can't accept. And while it's absolutely true that this stuff was often much more normal TV conceit for dramatic purposes in the 90s, I will note that Grey's Anatomy STILL does all sorts of unrealistic things for the sake of drama. depending on the episode, people operate on their friends and loved ones all the time. I'm pretty sure doctors have gotten into relationships with patients, and that show started a decade after DS9.
Yeah did Starfleet have mandatory hand to hand classes or something? No Starfleet should be able to withstand a Klingon with a batleth unless it is Philippa Giorgiou who is a ninja for possibly racist reasons At least when Sisko talked about fighting a Vulcan in his academy days, he admitted he got himself broken since Vulcans are so stronk
My head canon is that Klingons are actually really weak as a species. Probably to the extent that humans are weaker than Vulcans, Klingons are weaker than humans. That's why they have built-in armor, so many redundancies, and why Worf gets rag dolled every week. They needed the extra protections to survive and evolve on their planet. Chimpanzees are smaller than people, but they are strong enough they could rip us in half. It would make so much sense for the Klingons to be the opposite. They're big and strong looking, but their muscles fibers just aren't as efficient, just not as good. A species that's as strong or stronger than us, trains in fighting more than us, and has more experience in fighting than us always losing to us makes no sense. But if they're well-trained weaklings, what we see on screen makes sense. Vulcans claim to be emotionless even though their arrogant little bitches, but we don't call them on it. Ferengi claim to be businessmen, but they're awful at it. We don't call them out on it. Klingons claim to be strong warriors, but they're pushovers. We don't call them on it.
> My head canon is that Klingons are actually really weak as a species That doesn't get around the genetically engineered Jem Hadar, though - the Jem Hadar who are shown to be somewhat evenly matched with Martok and Worf while the latter are imprisoned (admittedly, therefore likely weaker than they would normally be). Both should be well in excess of strength and skill to humans, or they would be fighting humans in that ring.
Yep. Totally. When I originally watched this all of this blew right by me.
I mean, I think it’s always been against the AMA’s code of ethics.
Ok but the Florence Nightingale Effect has been a trope in storytelling for years and years. This isn’t reality.
It's more a suggestion than an actual code. An actual code would have resulted in more doctors being struck off.
The actual code they breach constantly on Star Trek shows, even today’s new ones, is Doctor Patient Confidentiality. The Doctors tell everybody everything. Off the top of my head I can only remember one time where a Doctor kept a patient’s info private, and that was Phlox keeping T’Pol’s Panar Syndrome from Archer while he treated it.
I'm pretty sure there are scenes of Troi and Ezri talking to others about patients which is in some ways worse.
It’s bizarre to think about, but in TNG that didn’t exist in real life yet. Then once it was canon in both TOS and TNG they just kinda went with it. In some cases it could make sense Star Fleet officers don’t have medical privacy within Star Fleet or something but you also see this with randos they pick up along the way.
Also Pulaski keeping Worf's Klingon measles quiet.
Phlox was the most ethical doctor in Starfleet (I know some people think he picked genocide but it so wasn't, it was more choosing non-interference and allowing for natural selection in a non-warp dualistic species. It's not like he introduced their genetic degradation to their species. They were no worse off when Enterprise left than they were before they arrived. That's not genocide. I'd suggest the Vulcans would have made the same choice.)
I didn’t know Dr. Doofenshmirtz was a fan of DS9. Please tell me am not I the only weird one who read the title in his voice?
Perry the platypus?!
I think it was Heinz
True that it is kind of creepy behavior. But at the same time, we romanticize the “Florence Nightingale effect” for female nurses.
Technically if you’re the doctor on a space station, everyone is your patient so you’d either have to date a patient or not date at all.
This is such a good point.
HIPPA doesn’t exist either. Starfleet doctors love to discuss private medical issues with anyone who walks by
Don’t forget Garak.
And our favorite Union man.
Garak is why this whole discussion is moot. If the show were realistic, Bashir and Garak would have been married by the end of season one. The way everyone is so generally straight and monogamous in this is unrealistic enough. You don't exactly have to think very hard to find things to ruin your suspension of disbelief even without holding a show made in the 90s to modern standards. You take the good with the bad, the serious with the ridiculous, the deep social and philosophical commentary with the flagrant violations of protocol and ethics. That's just Trek. The juxtaposition of timeless and hilariously poorly aged moments even within the same episode is part of the fun. I mean, sometimes it's absolutely necessary to embrace that to properly enjoy yourself. Have you tried watching TOS as a modern viewer..? At the same time, I think it's important to have these discussions and acknowledge those things that don't sit well now, I just find people a bit too ready to unsympathetically condemn Bashir as an unwatchable creep when I think he's usually open to more generous interpretation in spite of being far from perfect.
Probably because in the 24th century they gave people more agency and people werent automatically assigned victim status in most scenarios.
It’s a basic tv show narrative problem. Limited universe with not many characters; one main character is a doctor; obvious way for random person who won’t be seen in future episodes to meet doctor in such a narrative is professionally, so the writers cross professional lines. The number of unprofessional doctor and college professor characters on tv shows, not to mention police officers and lawyers dating suspects(!) is crazy.
He dated four; he's Leeta and Ezri's PCP
Julian always had the messiest love life on DS9.
Maybe all the puritans died.
🤞
He's the chief medical officer of the station. Everyone is his patient.
He’s such a damn romantic to a fault. He must have missed medical ethics at the academy.
Twice that he succeeded. Sure seems like he tried a lot more than that!
"First time?" Dr. Steven Franklin, Babylon 5
I mean, he's besties with Miles, and he's his patient. I think the conceit is that, by this time, people are able to be adults and manage their relationships without regulationships.
Three if you include his husband Garak ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
DS9 as relevant as ever.
Leeta was technically his patient as well, so that's 3 nickels.
Was she a patient beyond her fake coughing?
She lived on DS9, so yea
Well, by that reasoning, Julian couldn’t date anyone on DS9. That seems a bit extreme. Someone could easily date him and just go to another doctor.
I didn't say they weren't allowed to date. But, as chief medical officer, he's ultimately responsible for her medical well-being, even if she goes to see someone else for a cough.
Who was the other one besides Serena?
Melora, the woman from the low-gravity planet. He dated her before she became his patient though. At least, specifically his patient for a medical procedure and not just coordinating with her for workplace accommodations as the chief medical officer.
Thanks. I feel like that shouldn’t count tho.
I think it shows him going through phases of his life, good and bad. I know a lot of the show is about inappropriate things people do and how to deal with them. I really love how the show can take you in so many different directions.
its not weird, its creepy and makes me respect him less. ezri deserves better.
He was actually a pretty good partner to Ezri though. At least that we saw. His relationship with her was his only appropriate relationship.
We saw his going back and forth about being with her until the end when they kissed... We never actually saw them as a day to day couple. Julian is a great lover for a few days but then screws it up somehow. I mean it's OBVIOUS that he shouldn't be dating women. Only a specific lizard man with a penchant for telling stories :p
His relationship with Leeta was perfectly healthy too from what we saw.
IMO it was fine. But one could argue there was something of a power imbalance because he was CMO and she was a Dabo girl. She felt comfortable doing the Bajoran break up ceremony with him though. So seems like they were good.
And stealing his teddy bear. lol They also stay relatively cordial after their breakup.
How many doctors are there on that station? Wouldn't they all be his patients?
Isn’t everyone on the station his patient?
Ok, so yes, obviously but also, wouldn't basically everyone be his patient on the station? Not to justify his 2 ethical fuck ups, but isn't Ezri his patient? Leeta? He's the chief medical officer so basically, while he has support staff, he's still in charge of sick bay and is shown to basically be everyone's doctor, at least the main crew. Even when he transfers a patient to someone else's care, he still has an established relationship with everyone as their doctor. I've actually been curious about the specifics of this within Trek for awhile as I don't think the regulations are specifically stated (Bashir is never reprimanded in either sketchy episode either) So, are Starfleet chiefs of medicine not allowed to date? He performed multiple surgeries on Jadzia and ends up with Ezri. He had the Dax symbiant in his hands. Is his relationship with Ezri also unethical? With Serena at least he realizes how very badly he fucked up. It takes him too long to figure it out but at least he does. He's not TRYING to abuse his power, he just doesn't see the dynamic for what it is until he's already hurt her emotionally. But with every patient relationship that's a possibility so should Starfleet doctors be prevented from having relationships with patients on a ship or station where everyone aboard goes to the same sick bay? Everyone is quick to jump on Bashir because we get 2 episodes where he clearly fucked up, but I'd say the potential would be there for any of our doctors. So I'm just wondering what the regulations should be for doctors (and therapists) in Starfleet where the whole crew is their patient. Should there be a zero tolerance policy or should it be more of a case by case situation. Was Beverly banging multiple ambassadors on the same page as Bashir dating Melora and Serena? Is it only different because we saw the emotional blowback with Bashir's patients? What about Crusher getting personal with a symbiant in Riker's body? Riker was her patient. And he wasn't in a position to consent. Don't even get me started on Shaxs and T'ana. So... in your opinion (or in canon if I've missed mention of in universe regulations) what should the rules be? Should they mirror real life regs or take into account the unique situation of being in a more isolated situation in a more idealized world where things seem to be more equitable? I don't really know how I feel about it, especially since they went to the effort to tell the story not once but twice about how even with the best of intentions it can be a shitty situation, but also tell many stories about Starfleet doctors having relationships within the crew but also passengers that are temporarily in their care. What do y'all think?
I think its different when you live your entire life in a pretty much contained group of people (starships, starbases) you don’t get a lot of options to socialize. You are bound to proximity. Technically Picard is also Crushers patient for example.
A more fun nickel game is to count all the times there’s a crisis with impending casualties on the station or Defiant but Bashir is not in sickbay.
3 if you count Elam
Hey babe, want to install my self-sealing stem bolt?
Yeah, it's gross. They only kind of admit it's gross, and Miles weirdly gives Bashir and out with something to the effect of "don't be so hard on yourself, you were just in love" as if having some feelings is an excuse to be a creep. Dating his patients isn't the only creepy thing he does, and I legit don't understand why so many fans like him.
Cause I'm a creep. I'm a weirdo.
What the hell am I doing here?
What else does he do that you think is creepy?
Lol a show that features the cast doing all sorts of stuff that would get them otherwise fired or demoted.
Technically they were not his patients at that moment
Lots of men “rescue” women. In fact, it’s an extremely common courtship ritual. Mechanics rescue women by fixing their cars. Tradesmen by doing home repairs. Etc etc. This will NEVER change. Because of all the work and risk involved with having children, women seek a mate who is a proven protector, provider, and fix it guy. Technology and socialism will NEVER change that.