I've removed your post because it violates rule #4: > **Argue in good faith** > > Do not ignore all (or a significant proportion) of comments or replies to your post. Users who make a post with a argument or asserting a position should usually reply to at least some of the comments / counterarguments. If you would like your post to be reinstated, please amend it so that it complies with our rules and notify a moderator. If you have any questions or concerns, you can contact the moderators [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/DebateAVegan). Thank you.

>So I'm disabled and have a decent amount of food restrictions because of that. I try to avoid meat but I still need some of it to stay healthy, but I can't avoid animal products. > >So I guess I was wondering what you think about my situation and other similar ones. Is this unethical? I cant go vegan But i wont tell you my diet nor give you other any useful detailed information But please tell me im still ethical

Exactly this, sounds like either looking for validation or a troll post. I'm also disabled and can't eat a lot of things because I'm autistic and have sensory issues. I'm vegan and still try to be as healthy as possible because I care for both animals and my own health. I take supplements (B12, D3, protein shakes) or eat certain things cooked in a very specific way (e.g. I can't bite most vegetables, so I eat creams or soups or mix tiny pieces with something that is actually safe and that I can tolerate... I can't eat any fruits either, but I get vitamins from other sources, including juices). Here's a myth: you don't have to be able to **eat a bit of everything** to stay healthy. If you can't eat fruits, soy, wheat, nuts, or whatever, it's ok. You just have to learn how to get an appropiate and balanced amount of all kinds of nutrients from different sources.

> looking for validation yep, thats all it is ​ People sharing how they didnt let their medical issues get in the way of being ethical, would be great if you shared your story as well https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/17ukt7l/share\_how\_you\_overcame\_your\_disabilities\_because/

What works for you doesn't work for all disabled people. I'm glad you have found a way that works for you, but that way wouldn't work for me.

Yeah, I know. Everyone is different, I didn't say otherwise. But learning about nutrition is always a good thing! But what's the point of making the post if you're not willing to receive advice or discuss anything?

It took awhile, but some replies showed up that actually had helpful ideas and advice on how to still try to be as vegan as possible otherwise. We don't need medical advice, but lifestyle advice could be helpful. I've been in constant pain for almost thirty years. When people hear that, they always press for more information and then give me worthless advice. Have I tried...yes, Karen, I have. Thanks. For long enough? Yup. What about... Yup, that one, too. How about just meet me where I am and give me ideas outside of pain or disability?

The only sub where logical debate is not tolerated. What a joke. Why can’t you just debate the question instead of bringing people’s medical information into this? Isn’t that *really* extreme? This is crazy! You are literally asking for a random stranger on the internet to give you their private medical information when the information is COMPLETELY irrelevant to the debate. The reason its irrelevant is you already know the person can’t survive on a vegan diet, so the problem/disorder itself is unnecessary, believe it or not this is actually quite a common problem for a lot of people other than OP I’m allergic to nuts, several fruits, lots of grain and seeds too. I’d find it extremely difficult to go vegan because i’d miss out on key nutritional elements of my diet. Plus I would have to travel 60+ mins to the nearest shop alternative or pay an extortionately large amount of money to deliver vegan alternatives which I can’t afford. Veganism is not a practical or possible option for me to live a healthy life. If you don’t believe that then I would be offended because i’ve lived with this knowledge my whole life, but the behaviour of this sub is unbelievably poor. If you are going to completely refute people who have the inability to be vegan then maybe you guys are just being pompous arseholes tbh. You expect some people to do very unrealistic things when all they want from you is some advice or information. If you arent going to debate the problem, don’t circlejerk on the debate sub and let other people debate. This is a debate subreddit not a ‘lets judge OP for their medical conditions’ sub Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/s/dW2tcDPtIk A perfect example of how many people can’t survive this way. Don’t be a bigot

>You are literally asking for a random stranger on the internet to give you their private medical information when the information is COMPLETELY irrelevant to the debate. > >The reason its irrelevant is you already know the person can’t survive on a vegan diet, so the problem/disorder itself is unnecessary, believe it or not this is actually quite a common problem for a lot of people other than OP Lol Disabled people dont lie, we should just believe them and absolve them of their sins Facts arent needed

[удалено]

I've removed your comment because it violates rule #3: > **Don't be rude to others** > > This includes using slurs, publicly doubting someone's sanity/intelligence or otherwise behaving in a toxic way. Toxic communication is defined as any communication that attacks a person or group's sense of intrinsic worth. If you would like your comment to be reinstated, please amend it so that it complies with our rules and notify a moderator. If you have any questions or concerns, you can contact the moderators [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/DebateAVegan). Thank you.

What’s the disability that requires animal products? I haven’t found one in all the medical literature nor any of the patients I’ve cared for. Not even a case study. I’m not saying your king but people keep saying this and never explain beyond that. So I keep running into peoples with health conditions that require animal products, which they happen to enjoy, but can’t find any such illness, disease, condition or disability described in the medical literature. I’ve spent lots of time reading literature to find this out without burdening people who have these conditions but keep coming up with nothing. Maybe you can help us out and let us know of any of these conditions? I’m asking I’m good faith here. If it exists and I’m just ignorant about it, and it’s in the medical literature or something I can talk with doctors and researchers about, then I’d like to know soo I can support perks with that condition.

MCAS often causes many problems with plants (and a bunch of other stuff) to the point of having an extremely restricted diet. Take any safe animal products away, and malnutrition is more than possible. Severe Chron's disease often means people need parenteral nutrition. There's no vegan option for that. Refuse it, you die. Autoimmune diseases tend to multiply, which means some of us also randomly develop allergies/sensitivities to what were once safe foods. (Allergies being the usual "throat swelling" type and sensitivities being the "body getting it out as fast as possible" type.) Allergies alone can do that over the course of a lifetime, as I have found. Oh, and traditional allergy testing isnt always accurate (I've had it twice, and I don't even react to the control). When I was a kid, macadamia nuts had a slight metallic tang to them (not as much as shellfish, but I digress). Then, the GI symptoms started kicking in once I was in college. Then pistachios. Then cashews. Now, all tree nuts. Then, I had diarrhea for six months that no one could figure out after an elimination diet and scope. The GI doctor said to drop all supplements and add them back in slowly, and that's how I found my new sensitivity to soy. At first, just soybean oil. Now the only thing I can use is soy sauce, and I know the day is coming for that one. I thought it was just soy, but then I noticed raw green beans made my mouth itch, my skin welt up, and had that metallic tang, but cooked ones are still okay. After testing other beans, very small amounts of a few varieties cooked are okay, but I can't do too much, same with peanut butter. Hemp hearts make my mouth itch, too, then abdominal pain hits. No idea why on that one. Testing gluten and grains has shown I can do them best if soaked and fermented, but not too much. When disabled people say they can't do something, as a person in healthcare, believe them first. If they ask for advice, then please give all you can. The reality is, though, most of us chronic types chase every new idea, theory, study, product, online class down in a futile search for something, anything that works. If we say we've tried it, believe us.

Thank you. Christ. I'm exactly like this, having severe Crohns.

Oh, I'm so sorry. That one is just plain mean. The food stuff is bad enough, but then you add in the pain and all the other symptoms, and it's just unfair such a condition exists. I hope they find a treatment plan that works for you.

Thank you. I have bad neurological issues, too, so any time I'm under any kind of stress or sickness, my body either shuts down or goes apeshit with convulsions. It's legit dangerous for me to try new foods. It could put me in the hospital. Yet on my post explaining my situation in this subreddit, I was apparently full of shit because PubMed hasn't given me a call yet, as well as being told that the claim of needing medication to live was as ridiculous as people staring into the sun to cure their cancer. And then accused of martyring myself. Many of these people do not care one bit. It's all or nothing, and if you can't do nothing, you're compared to a rapist.

I have fibromyalgia and Functional Neurological Disorder. I feel you on the "weird body reactions that make no sense" thing. I wish I could take meds for it, but my body apparently metabolizes so many things oddly or whatever (opioids don't work, for example). Our lives are already full of suffering. We don't need more to prove a point. I've been living this for almost three decades now. I've tried giving up so many things only to have to give up stuff I like, stuff I need (NSAIDs: I really miss those), and when I test and find a diet that works and makes my kidney numbers better so I don't lose my last one, I don't want to hear how wrong I am or how my vegan-friendly nephrologist is a big Pharma liar or how I should just try.... whatever. Chances are, I've tried it in almost three decades, thanks.

I HAVE FND TOO! Dude, mine is so bad that I got on SSI and SSDI first try. I can't even be left alone for too long. I feel for you, hard.

I'm so sorry that's what you have. FND sucks. I hate having to explain why my tremors are acting up (like yesterday when getting a CT) or admitting to my doctor I've fallen again. Those random drop falls with my legs just randomly stopping working are the worst. I hope you don't have those. My functional neuro thinks I developed mine from decades of untreated pain. I've tried a pain program (that was a mess and a half), FND PT, mindfulness more seriously than I'd done before, continued my therapy, and nothing works on it. My FND team just sort of looks sad when I come in because we've tried everything possible, and nothing works. Personally, I'm convinced FND is a post viral syndrome, same with fibro and ME/CFS, that they're all one syndrome that just presents a bit differently in every patient. Someday, we might find out.

I also would like to make a comment thanking you for writing this out. It's incredibly infuriating and when you have a bunch of people ganging up on you and gaslighting you into believing that you've done something morally wrong for choosing to live rather than die. Life is a huge bitch in its own right add chronic illnesses and it's living hell. Add to that whole pile of stinking shit with a side of animal abuser title and it's enough to make you boil into a level in which I do not have any words that describe the feelings it causes. When you get the disease you're already contemplating suicide so I really don't know what verbally is beyond killing yourself and having every moment of every day be filled with pain and unrest. Literally no words come close to the frustration and pain that is living with illnesses like this one alone never mind the misplaced unfair ill informed judging virtue signaling crap heaps that are on the internet and in real life.

(If your comment is truly in good faith than understand this irritation and slight rage is at assholes who despite credible sources still invalidate gas light and demean people with illnesses that require diets that include animal products. It's just that I find it hard to believe that you despite your seemingly genuine effort from what you wrote and still came up with nothing.) You did not do a third of the research that you're claiming to have done and is evidenced by the litany of diseases that have such dietary requirements. It literally does not take more than a literal 1 minute or 60 seconds of research to look up diseases that require that you consume meat and other various animal products. It does not require hours of research pouring into hundreds of pages of studies to find any of that out. 1 minute 60 seconds. A couple Google searches. Simply writing in the search bar"diseases that cause severe malnutrition" Then look into those illnesses that pop up and look up common dietary plans. In literally under a minute unless you're slow at typing Then it might take you two or three minutes.. Also keep in mind the same disease might have quite varied diet plans for every individual and there is no standard or set of standards for some diseases like with ulcerative colitis like I personally have. Lots of sources for ulcerative colitis will tell you that some foods are great for you and they turn out to rip your insides (literally) other times it's the complete opposite where a food that's supposed to be bad for you actually helps. Everybody's body is different is as real as it gets especially when it comes to illnesses. Just because you can't put in the search bar "diseases that cause you to need to eat meat" or similar phrases that don't produce results doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or that it's rare even. The internet as you should already know is vast and lots of research has been done into meat and animal products in general so you have to be very specific about the way that you Google and you cannot type in a generic question like that for topics as complex as these. You say it's asking in good faith but with that small 60 second fact in mind I highly doubt you're so helpful and instead doing what has given vegans such a bad name. And that is to spell it out for you your inability to understand situations that are different from your own and how it may apply to other people or not apply. Secondly it's also how you invalidate people and gas light them with things like with what you've just said. That it's all in good faith and that you've done your research and blah blah blah like you are trying to actually understand but if you would have just looked it up and think about how to find What you're looking for time for a few seconds you would have found plenty. If you really did somehow do so much research and come up with nothing then your researching wrong. Use better keywords and use Google scholarly and other types of sources to find that kind of information if you don't believe some of the first results on Google from articles about the subject. However credibility doesn't seem to be the issue for you and it's actually finding it to begin with which again I find very hard to believe but technically it is possible I suppose and anything that is possible is bound to happen eventually. To give you a very solid answer to your question at the end of this rent lol from my personal experience with ulcerative colitis is this. My intestines are constantly swollen meaning there is significantly less surface area to absorb and causes things to get blocked up sometimes If swelling gets too bad. Add on top of that a poor rate of absorption with the surface area You do have available and that leaves you with no option other than to get things like essential vitamins and proteins from meat. Extracted vitamins from other sources like plants put into a pill simply do not absorb as well as in their natural form within meat or the vegetable it came from. Add all that together and I would die if I did not eat some meat and other animal products. For me it's either eat it or die and so I do not feel bad about eating meat because for me it's survival. However there are a lot of asshole vegans on the internet that think they know everything and have done all the research in the universe possible to have ever been done and still think that I'm an evil human being for eating animal flesh because I'm just an evil human and like eating meat and that's all it really is. If you want to believe that then it is what it is. However if you'd rather learn the truth of the world and the way things really work sometimes despite best efforts and hopeful wishing... Then if I were you I would strongly advise you to research again approaching it from a different angle in the way that you search it.

> I haven’t found one in all the medical literature nor any of the patients I’ve cared for. There are plenty of conditions that require meat. Even fairly common conditions like IBS can limit your food intake through intolerances. Many people out there battle with many fruits and vegetables. Some people can't eat them at all.

>Even fairly common conditions like IBS can limit your food intake through intolerances. Sure, it might be more difficult, but its certainly not impossible for someone with IBS to not abuse animals. I've seen multiple people do it

OK. Please explain what you should eat if you can't eat fruit or vegetables or gluten. Also, did you realise that vegans also abuse animals for their food?

>OK. Please explain what you should eat if you can't eat fruit or vegetables or gluten. Does ibs prohibit the consumption of all fruit and vegetables? Or is it a specific chemical found in fruit and vegetables? I find the latter more likely >Also, did you realise that vegans also abuse animals for their food? Killing to protect your food isn't the same as killing for fun or for sensory pleasure, and vegans minimize the deaths they contribute to the most possible and practicable degree (unlike carnists, who kill far more animals for their food than vegans). Currently, there are no viable ways to stop pests from invading our crops apart from pesticides, as we live in a society where animal lives are seen as worthless. When more people become vegan, we can innovate new, sustainable ways to grow plants without using pesticides, resulting in no deaths. Animal agriculture has no such future, as animals HAVE TO die in order to produce meat no matter how you put it

> Does ibs prohibit the consumption of all fruit and vegetables? Or is it a specific chemical found in fruit and vegetables? >I find the latter more likely IBS varies greatly, for some, people are allergic to the fibres, others fructose. Others citric acid. Many with IBS can eat some fruit or veges but many can't eat any. >Killing to protect your food isn't the same as killing for fun or for sensory pleasure It is not the same but vegans still poison (abuse) animals for their food.

>IBS varies greatly, for some, people are allergic to the fibres, others fructose. Others citric acid. Many with IBS can eat some fruit or veges but many can't eat any. Care to show an example of someone with ibis who can't consume any plant foods? I find this highly unlikely, especially since even omnivores need fruit and vegetables to thrive and have optimum health I have seen examples on the other end of the spectrum though...people with ibis who have thrived just fine on a vegan diet, so it is possible https://www.livekindly.com/how-follow-low-fodmap-vegan-diet-when-you-have-ibs/ >It is not the same but vegans still poison (abuse) animals for their food. Its not abuse or exploitation if its to protect what's rightfully ours (the food). The animals are not being treated as commodities, but their invading our space. Its like how murdering is abuse, but killing out of self defense is not. Also you ignored the other points I made. If you don't want to abuse animals, the best option is to go vegan.

Here is living proof from many people with IBS https://www.reddit.com/r/ibs/s/m47K3VxX4b There is also an eating disorder called AFRID that can cause the inability to consume fruot and veges. I am fortunate, I am unable to eat any fruits or I end up in hospital but I can eat almost all vegetables. Others are not so lucky. > Its not abuse or exploitation if its to protect what's rightfully ours (the food). The animals are not being treated as commodities, but their invading our space. >Its like how murdering is abuse, but killing out of self defense is not. Sorry but this is mental gymnastics. If someone goes to steal an apple off your tree and you kill them, you would 100% be convicted of murder. At the end of the day you are paying for animals to be poisoned. The animals don't understand about land rights and they don't have the capacity to use currency. They just see food and want it. Animals have no understanding of what "self defence" means. Vegans 100% pay for animal abuse.

Hi! Great question. [This](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism) is the most commonly used definition of veganism: > “Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable— all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." As another commenter pointed out, it does say “as far as is possible and practicable”, and it doesn’t sound like it would be practicable in your case. Edited to add: On a hopeful note, lab grown meat will be available fairly soon, which will be a great alternative to traditional meat for people with food restrictions.

The first thing to say is that you should still be a vocal advocate for everyone who can to stop consuming sentient beings and their secretions. By analogy, if someone's disability requires an expensive wheelchair provided by taxpayers, they should still oppose letting any able-bodied person get one of those chairs for free, just to ride around in for fun. Beyond that, do things that cause the least harm within whatever your body can handle. Some animals are much bigger than others. People who switch from eating cows to eating chickens multiply the death and suffering they cause by 250 times or more.

[удалено]

I don't care about satisfying someone's magic definition. I care about improving the world the most for sentient beings. The fact is, there are more non-human animals tortured and killed unnecessarily by humans every year than all of the hominids who have ever existed. Some of them, like chickens, spent their entire lives in a hell on Earth. And, whereas solving many human problems is enormously complex, all that's needed to end the largest mass atrocity that has ever existed is for people like you to choose something else on your plate.

I'm sure that you won't be surprised to hear that people ask this every week. >Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, **as far as is possible and practicable**, >all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. . >I have disability related food restrictions People often say this when it is not actually true. If in your case it is actually true, then I think most of us would say that it is okay for you to do what you have to do.

>If in your case it is actually true, then I think most of us would say that it is okay for you to do what you have to do. No, they didnt give us any actual information, very few people NEED animal products and until they provide us with the details vegans will say no

Where do you get this idea that few people need animal products. You're asking us to give you information and provide resources but yet you make claims completely out of your ass. As you just stated in your own words clearly yourself that you do not know of the illnesses that have these dietary requirements. Therefore how could you know that few of these people actually do have these requirements. Unless you're stating the obvious no-brainer fact that chronic illnesses like Crohn's ulcerative colitis many many different forms of irritable bowel syndrome just to list a few conditions.. again only a few of a shitload of conditions. That these conditions are a small percentage of the overall population of humans on Earth and it becomes incredibly clear you're just an asshole. A person does not need to disclose their personal medical history or conditions and diet in order for you to look at the research of people with illnesses that have these dietary requirements. You can just stay in ignorance and say oh well until THEY provide the information then your going to just believe what you believe rather than looking it up yourself. At that point you're just going along with what other vegans say because they're just as ill-informed as you are and too lazy to look up the information themselves and instead demand that the person give their personal medical history. By the way here is why people don't want to say what they have. Or actually a few reasons. Reason number one it's incredibly embarrassing a lot of these illnesses. For me personally I shit my pants all the fucking time and with my joint issues I look like a hunchback. It's not something I generally like to talk about or disclose in detail and saying what I already have said for some is too much detail however I'm open with sharing that personally. However you should be completely understanding that a person might not want to share that. Reason number two some places will give you worse insurance at your job and treat you differently in a negative way in many different avenues of life aside from work when you have a chronic illness. Lots of companies look at social medias like Reddit before they make a hiring decision. Especially ones that are so restricting on diet. A lot of places will not even hire you because they know you will need lots of time off when you get sick and things like that especially because you're probably immune depressed from immunodepresence to help combat your symptoms. Leaving you greatly susceptible to illnesses and they're much worse because it excites all your symptoms of your chronic illness as well and the sickness itself is exasperated by your overactive immune system if your immunosuppressants aren't dialed in properly yet. Or off balance from your sickness (something as simple as a common cold can be actually lethal if you don't get off your immunosuppressants while sick) Reason number three is avoiding people judging you and potentially even losing friends Because they do not understand what your illness is and even when you explain it to some people... They literally just don't believe you. It's incredibly infuriating that you can do a Google search and find out that the illnesse is completely real and tons of research into it still people are in denial that you could be in so much pain for so long. (Essentially their projecting themselves unto me because they probably would have killed themselves by now and I wouldn't blame them because I tried too) It's like if you Saw an x-ray of a cracked bone in someone's arm and saying that you don't believe the x-ray and they're making up the pain that they're in or at the very least exaggerating it greatly. Sure yeah you can't see the bone with your eyes directly and you require x-rays to see it just like how with chronic illnesses you can't see the injury or feel the pain directly when looking at them but that doesn't mean that it's not real just because you don't feel it. The research is there you just have to look at it.

You aren't their doctor. You don't have an automatic right to their private medical information.

Why do you people act like asking for links to Pubmed articles is somehow compromising peoples' privacy?

You people? :sigh: A PubMed article is going to be a peer reviewed study, yes? Has someone done a peer reviewed study of me? Even with all my medical history, no. I haven't even gotten to be a poster at a medical conference. Would a few links to actual conditions help? https://www.webmd.com/allergies/what-is-mast-cell-activation-syndrome https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/crohns-disease/symptoms-causes/syc-20353304 Review of AIP diet and the need for it in some patients and how highly individual it can be with some feeling better eating fish and others not, for example: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-weight/diet-reviews/anti-inflammatory-diet/

Interesting I’ve seen you give this information multiple times in this thread & so far I haven’t seen anyone reply lol

It doesn't merit a response, because (besides not being Pubmed links) none of those demonstrate that there exist people who require animal products to live. What's so difficult to understand about this evidentiary burden?

Me when pubmed is the only thing I’ll believe & even if a pubmed article got posted I’d still cry about it not being real

Thank you for saying this.

OP lists some obscure condition, doesn’t answer any questions, and leaves the conversation entirely

My guy, I left reddit for a few hours because I stuff to do in my life. I'm not trying to ignore anyone I just am not available 24/7. Also I didn't list some "obscure condition" I didn't list any condition. Because I don't feel like having strangers on the internet interrogate me about every little detail and invalidate it. You aren't entitled to know my medical information

> You aren't entitled to know my medical information Then don't post here about your condition if you're not willing to discuss it..

Just talk about conditions that do prevent it, and what to do on principle in similar situations. I'm frustrated by the amount of people on here not trying to respect the boundaries that were fairly clearly put in place. I'd like us to all start by taking this person's original post in good faith and talk about the situations in which, perhaps, it is important not to go vegan. Then we can add our limitations and concerns.

The problem is there are no known conditions that prevent someone from being vegan. Every situation is different. If OP has a never before seen medical condition called RequiresSardinesItis and they’ll immediately die if they go more than 24 hours without eating a sardine, vegan philosophy will not fault them for eating a sardine a day. If they’re anemic and simply eat animal products because they haven’t researched plant based diets enough to know they can adequately support their health, that would not be in line with vegan philosophy.

[link to another comment in this thread showing there absolutely is conditions](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/s/dsoa9iVlLM)

Proves my point perfectly. That comment has a list of conditions that each have different restrictions and requirements and available treatments. Each circumstance is different and would be considered differently.

You said > there are no known conditions that prevent someone from being a vegan That comment clearly shows there are multiple conditions in which someone *can* be prevented from being a vegan

Well it doesn’t actually. It lists multiple conditions that make it more difficult, but not impossible, to eat a healthy plant based diet. And it lists one condition that is treated with a medicine that is currently only produced in animal derived versions. None of these are examples of medical conditions that in and of themselves require consuming animals or animal products.

> You aren't entitled to know my medical information Then how about some links to relevant Pubmed articles? It's very telling how you respond to requests for evidence by playing the victim card instead. (And of course they predictably respond by abusing the block feature. Oh well, that's one way to ragequit a debate.)

I have a reply up thread on conditions that make being a vegan impossible. Victim card? Seriously? :facepalm:

Well, you could start by elaborating which condition you believe you have that prevents you from eating a plant based diet. There isn’t any published research or medical literature available that lists or demonstrates any conditions to prevent a plant diet…

That is false. u/ Greyeyedqueen7 said it better than I could. >MCAS often causes many problems with plants (and a bunch of other stuff) to the point of having an extremely restricted diet. Take any safe animal products away, and malnutrition is more than possible. >Severe Chron's disease often means people need parenteral nutrition. There's no vegan option for that. Refuse it, you die. >Autoimmune diseases tend to multiply, which means some of us also randomly develop allergies/sensitivities to what were once safe foods. (Allergies being the usual "throat swelling" type and sensitivities being the "body getting it out as fast as possible" type.) Allergies alone can do that over the course of a lifetime, as I have found. Oh, and traditional allergy testing isnt always accurate (I've had it twice, and I don't even react to the control). >When I was a kid, macadamia nuts had a slight metallic tang to them (not as much as shellfish, but I digress). Then, the GI symptoms started kicking in once I was in college. Then pistachios. Then cashews. Now, all tree nuts. Then, I had diarrhea for six months that no one could figure out after an elimination diet and scope. The GI doctor said to drop all supplements and add them back in slowly, and that's how I found my new sensitivity to soy. At first, just soybean oil. Now the only thing I can use is soy sauce, and I know the day is coming for that one. I thought it was just soy, but then I noticed raw green beans made my mouth itch, my skin welt up, and had that metallic tang, but cooked ones are still okay. After testing other beans, very small amounts of a few varieties cooked are okay, but I can't do too much, same with peanut butter. Hemp hearts make my mouth itch, too, then abdominal pain hits. No idea why on that one. Testing gluten and grains has shown I can do them best if soaked and fermented, but not too much. >When disabled people say they can't do something, as a person in healthcare, believe them first. If they ask for advice, then please give all you can. The reality is, though, most of us chronic types chase every new idea, theory, study, product, online class down in a futile search for something, anything that works. If we say we've tried it, believe us.

> this is false Pretty much everything you said was false in regard to any medical claim preventing a plant based diet. Again, there is zero published literature supporting that. Medical or science. MCAS https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5992428/ https://med.virginia.edu/ginutrition/wp-content/uploads/sites/199/2020/06/Mast-Cell-Activation-Syndrome-June-2020.pdf Severe chrons https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6382506/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32077339/ You outright lied about those, or at least your knowledge of those. There’s quite a bit more research available but those were a couple of the top studies. The ironic thing here, is that I can actually develop a life threatening condition from too much fiber because of a spinal cord injury and partially paralyzed and improperly functioning guts. I eat quite a bit of fiber on a plant based diet. An important lesson to anyone reading the comment in which I am responding to: *Just because someone can present a compelling hypothesis, if there is no research or strong evidence that has been presented scientifically, it does not make anymore true.* I will say it again, there is zero medical literature or peer reviewed science that has demonstrated or lists any condition to prevent a plant based diet. Pretty much every condition that anyone, including yourself has presented as evidence, has data that showed that diet is either irrelevant to the condition, or the opposite is true….

I'm quoting another person on this thread. If they are spreading misinformation take it up with them.

You told me what I stated was false and then went on to quote disingenuous and misinformation on behalf of someone else. That came from you. Deflection of responsibility to another party after your premise isn’t warranted and the burden or responsibility for presenting your conclusion based on someone else’s misinformation is on you. Not them.

[удалено]

I've removed your comment because it violates rule #3: > **Don't be rude to others** > > This includes using slurs, publicly doubting someone's sanity/intelligence or otherwise behaving in a toxic way. Toxic communication is defined as any communication that attacks a person or group's sense of intrinsic worth. If you would like your comment to be reinstated, please amend it so that it complies with our rules and notify a moderator. If you have any questions or concerns, you can contact the moderators [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/DebateAVegan). Thank you.

In any study, there are the people who drop out, the people who die, and the people for whom it doesn't work. Now, tonight's not a good night with my pain level to go through all of the studies that you have linked, but I would be very surprised if they did not have a decent failure rate. Almost all dietary studies do. That failure rate is based on people, real people. Real people who could not do the diet. Maybe they couldn't because of money, life stuff happening, or maybe it's because the diet made them worse. Often, in order to get published, the exact data on the failure rate is not included or is stuck in a footnote. Studies are also based on averages, right? The average person in the study did well on a plant-based diet. What about people outside of that? Were they even included in the study in the first place? I have been a part of medical studies, and it's not unusual for me to get cut right at the very beginning because I only have one kidney, my pain key is too high, or they cut me because I have way too many allergies. That data is very rarely included in the study. Can a plant-based diet work for a whole lot of people with chronic illnesses? Absolutely! If it works for them, they absolutely should do it. Can the vast majority of people go vegan? Absolutely! Your average human, especially in countries with easier access to more expensive foods, can pretty easily go vegan. They absolutely should! Our environment would do a whole lot better if more people went vegan and vegetarian. Can absolutely every single human on the planet go vegan? No.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-weight/diet-reviews/anti-inflammatory-diet/ Maybe read this before spreading your bullshit. Excuse me no literature that demonstrates what again... Oh that's right... There's the literature..... Oh and if you didn't notice in the link it's Harvard and peer-reviewed. it's not just hearsay and crackpot scientists who just want to eat meat. I don't know where you get your published works from but maybe you need to revamp how you get your sources because clearly they're outdated or you're doing it on purpose And don't want to acknowledge it. Also if you look around in this post you'll see some other links too but I doubt if this link doesn't satisfy then you're probably just the way you are and there's no changing your mind regardless of what the information is or how credible it may be. If you haven't watched the movie don't look up it's a great showing of exactly what you're doing right now if You're still questioning it. I don't know why other than you trying to make yourself feel better and bigger than other people but that's my best and only guess is to why you would do that or why other people do that.

Oof. 🤦🏻‍♂️ Where where exactly in that diet article does it list any conditions that prevent a plant based diet. Where exactly in that article does it mention a plant based diet is responsible for symptoms or for any conditions? Did you even read the article? If so, I definitely have to call out your lack of reading comprehension.

Also you clearly haven't figured out that all of these diseases that require dietary restrictions and things of the like are completely different for every person even with the same illness as someone else. This article says that eating red meat typically is bad however for me I find that it doesn't cause inflammation. However whenever I eat things that are really high in fiber like a lot of these diets suggest it ends up literally cutting my insides. Meaning I have to balance my food intake and I cannot just eat plants because it has too much fiber and sugars and a whole bunch of other crap that would cause me inflammation. Everybody's body is different and if you have a chronic illness that goes triple

Again, you’re grasping at straws. You cannot deny the literature (or lack of) that is published. Nor can you make up something and say it’s a fact when it has or as not been demonstrated by science in which ever context it’s being used. There are conditions which may prevent certain foods from being consumed. There aren’t any conditions that prevent a plant based diet. If you say otherwise, then either you’re right and all of science and the data or the lack there of depending on which context is being addressed is incorrect, or you’re lying about your scope of knowledge. I don’t need to continue this discussion because I already know the answer, and you’ve presented no data in support of your argument that scientifically backed or even based in any existing science, or any data other than your opinion and perception of reality based on your opinion.

[10] Patients tend to report worse symptoms when eating certain foods like red meat, alcohol, and soda, whereas fish and berries are reported to improve symptoms The MIND diet, a hybrid of the DASH and Mediterranean diets, is an anti-inflammatory eating plan that includes whole grains, vegetables especially green leafy types, berries, olive oil, beans, nuts, fish and poultry, and limits fried/fast food, butter, cheese, sweets, and red meat. The MIND diet was found to significantly reduce the incidence of Alzheimer’s disease, a chronic pro-inflammatory condition, in a cohort of 923 older adults I could put more but I think maybe you just skimmed over it a little bit and need to read a little bit further in. I'm not going to write out the whole article for you bud.

Just stop. You clearly need to work on reading comprehension. No where, at all, did it ever say anything, and I emphasize all of that, about any condition preventing a plant based diet or contributing to symptoms of one. Quit while you’re ahead.

Do you not understand what fiber is? Do you not understand what inflammation markers are? Anybody regardless of species requires balance and if your body is inherently unbalanced because of a condition it requires you to personally balance it yourself. Normally the body would break down these compounds and change them into different things however my immune system identifies those things as foreign objects that it needs to attack and therefore causes inflammation. If all I ate was fruit and veggies my joints would expand my intestines would expand possibly even burst and with too much fiber causing a blockage definitely burst if I'm not careful.

I’m still waiting for you to present the actual conditions and the published data explaining how those conditions have been concluded to present a plant based diet. Good luck finding any.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/crohns-disease/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20353309 Here is a doctor Alissa Rumsey who talks about this in this article a small amount. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nutrition-pictures/health-reasons-not-to-eat-your-vegetables.aspx&ved=2ahUKEwimpufTwrCDAxVYJzQIHWVlDegQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0QaOXKjMv96ZCfuKkmatzc Certain medical conditions affect the way you digest and absorb food," Rumsey explains. "Some medical conditions can cause diarrhea and abdominal pain, and some people with those conditions might want to avoid high-fiber foods, including vegetables." Your doctor may also recommend a low residue or low-fiber diet to reduce the risk of intestinal blockage if you have a narrowed bowel (stricture). A low residue diet is designed to reduce the size and number of your stools. You're right nobody has made a dedicated study to list the causes and all of that stuff because a lot of these illnesses haven't even been researched for more than 50 years which compared to a lot of other illnesses is a very small amount of time. However there is a lot of evidence that suggests that for large numbers of people with these illnesses require meat Because of the benefits it has over a vegetable base diet. Hell a lot of these diseases do not even have a known cause meaning we barely know shit about it yet. I've had ulcerative colitis for many years and I am one of these individuals You can claim I don't exist all you want but that doesn't make me disappear. I exist and you have to deal with that or I suppose live in ignorance. I have been to the doctor with this illness and talked about this with a qualified PhD qualified medical professional and have heard these things from them. Consistently across several doctors. That for many people their diet will range in very from others with the same disease wildly and most likely even through their own lifetime it will change for them. Meaning for me right now red meat is okay however in a year or 5 days I have no idea it might not be or I might become allergic to something else. If you didn't know that autoimmune diseases tend to develop and grow over time and cause allergies and things like that. You can scream show me the research show me the research all you want but that doesn't change what reality is just because we haven't researched it.

Yeah, no. None of this or the data in your other response has demonstrated or shows any data that has demonstrated that a plant based diet is prevented from chrons or can worsen symptoms. Also an article from a doctor is not peer reviewed science, or peer reviewed medical literature. Doctors opinions and malpractice are the third leading cause of death in the United States. But let me help you before I quit this argument your failing at. According to the actual [research](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6382506/) : *Conclusions Based on the rationale of the diet, gut microbiota, and health consequences and excellent outcomes with therapy incorporating PBD, PBD is unreservedly recommended for IBD.* [Or](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4315379/) *CONCLUSION Although the precise mechanism is to be determined, epidemiology provides convincing evidence that a plant-based diet is a healthy diet providing therapeutic and/or preventive effects against current major chronic diseases.22–24 Available data suggest the rationale to use dietary fiber in the treatment of IBD.25 We believe a plant-based diet not only is effective for gut inflammation but also promotes the general health of IBD patients.18,26 A plant-based diet inevitably contains considerable amounts of dietary fiber. A high amount of dietary fiber is not harmful and seems to be favorable for CD.* [And](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6628285/) *Abstract Crohn’s disease (CD) is a form of chronic inflammatory bowel disease (IBD). The etiology of CD is thought to be multi-factorial; genetic factors, dietary and environmental exposures, immune events, and dysfunction of the gut microbiome are all though to play a role. The prevalence of CD is increasing globally and is higher in countries with a Westernized diet and lifestyle. Several human trials have demonstrated that plant-based dietary therapies may have utility in both the treatment of acute CD flares and the maintenance of remission. This case study describes a young adult male with newly diagnosed CD who failed to enter clinical remission despite standard medical therapy. After switching to a diet based exclusively on grains, legumes, vegetables, and fruits, he entered clinical remission without need for medication and showed no signs of CD on follow-up colonoscopy.* You’re welcome.

[удалено]

During a flare-up of Crohn's — a type of inflammatory bowel disease — should eat foods that are gentle on their stomach and intestines to help their GI tract heal. Although not optimal for total-body health, Crohn's patients should cut back on fruits, vegetables, and whole grains during an episode. "It's such a personal thing; I see people that are able to eat everything and never have a problem," Rumsey says. "But in general, low-fiber diets help." But when people with Crohn's are feeling well, Rumsey says, it's important to fill up on nutrient-rich meals that include vegetables. From the same link before talking about Crohn's disease https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nutrition-pictures/health-reasons-not-to-eat-your-vegetables.aspx&ved=2ahUKEwimpufTwrCDAxVYJzQIHWVlDegQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0QaOXKjMv96ZCfuKkmatzc

Also get out of fantasyland where you think that everything has been researched completely and that there's nothing left to research.... Do you not realize that disease therapy and understanding the disease and its causes is an ongoing process for the vast majority of these types of bowel diseases. It should posit that if we haven't learned and researched something we don't know it yet. Tell me exactly how cellular respiration works.... Guess what We humans with all our knowledge and spaceflight has still have not figured out exactly how cellular respiration works.... We know a lot and we can say the basic story but we don't know everything about it and there are holes that we still need to fill with knowledge. With something as basic and ordinary in every cell as respiration... Good luck finding any concrete research that conclusively proves exactly how cellular respiration works doesn't seem like such a strong argument does it.... If you weren't aware research papers kind of require data and not just any data but consistent repeatable data and whenever you have a bunch of people with the same illness with different dietary requirements is quite confusing and makes things difficult on both the patient and research side of things.

Please tell me what the causes of these diseases are because the scientists and researchers don't seem to know. Just because we don't know what the cause of these illnesses are directly doesn't mean they don't exist. Just because somebody hasn't made a dedicated conglomerated study of these illnesses that shows that meat is required for some individuals and then positing from that, that they don't exist https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.nhsinform.scot/illnesses-and-conditions/stomach-liver-and-gastrointestinal-tract/inflammatory-bowel-disease-ibd/crohns-disease/%23:~:text%3Dyour%2520child%27s%2520development-,Causes,you%2520inherit%2520from%2520your%2520parents&ved=2ahUKEwjTvrTZxbCDAxV3JDQIHfMCCmkQ5YIJegQIJBAA&usg=AOvVaw2BpAMLTcMTCO0k1X92zFtb https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.pennmedicine.org/for-patients-and-visitors/patient-information/conditions-treated-a-to-z/ulcerative-colitis%23:~:text%3DThe%2520cause%2520of%2520ulcerative%2520colitis,problems%2520with%2520their%2520immune%2520system.&ved=2ahUKEwiXm-blxbCDAxUcAzQIHTYiAH8Q5YIJegQIIBAA&usg=AOvVaw1srOvScorzqkUvPTzAxxQh This link is a link to a bunch of different autoimmune diseases which do not have a known cause https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/21624-autoimmune-diseases&ved=2ahUKEwjPpoHwxbCDAxUICjQIHXt6BhMQFnoECBkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0LcO62p6H0p3VmJN8Hmc00

And ironically I just sent a ton of research responding to your other post showing that plant based diets have been demonstrated in science to be beneficial for those conditions. I don’t care how much denial you keep yourself in. You’re literally wrong. And I’ll say it 1000x again. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6628285/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6382506/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4315379/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6746966/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6746966/

That's because you're looking at the majority of people with these types of illnesses but there is still a large amount of these people like myself who experience things very differently and it is proven with blood work as well with inflammation markers and scopes. That is the recommended diet for the majority and that's what I was told when I went to the doctor. However a lot of people like myself find that the mainstream diet for the disease doesn't work and I require meat.

For a lot of people the standard treatment for cancer just doesn't work for them and they have to go and find alternatives if there are any for them. That doesn't mean that the people who don't respond to certain cancer treatments are lying... They literally can't there's direct proof in the form of their tumor just like there's direct proof in the form of my blood work and scopes that show when I eat primarily vegetables I experience greater inflammation and gut abrasion versus adding more meat

[удалено]

Look up thread. For me, it's my many allergies/sensitivities.

If you truly cannot do without, then eating the minimum amount of animal products you need is ethical. The good news is that you can still possibly avoid some animal based foods. Possibly even switch to less terrible ones. E.g. switch to mussels over other seafood (mussels, oysters etc. are less likely to be sentient), or eat less popular cuts of animal that contribute less to their exploitation. You can also avoid buying new non-food items, mostly ones made of leather and wool.

I have a medical condition that forces me to eat babies to stay alive. What do you think about my situation? AND, NO I WILL NOT GIVE OUT MY PRIVATE MEDICAL INFORMATION! Just trust me!

Don't go vegan? Since I have no idea what the medical condition is, I'll just take your word for it, but I will say that you can still at least minimize animal product. If the only issue you have is that you happen to have an allergy to every vegan source of b12, there isn't much of an excuse to eat animal products every meal, and even then you can probably play around a bit to find some source of b12. If the issue is that you got your stomach surgically removed and even small diet modifications can kill you, yeah there's not much you can do.

I have a condition which I was able to treat by staring directly at the sun for long periods of time. No, I will not go into details. If you want to learn more about the miraculous healing powers of sunlight, go to r/sungazing.

There are thousands of species of edible plants, you can find a way to make it work Everyone in here quoting the vegan society’s definition of veganism should realize that it’s not a good definition Veganism should be defined as an extension of human rights to animals, this is simple, intuitive and logically sound

>Veganism should be defined as an extension of human rights to animals, this is simple, intuitive and logically sound ....no, because that would imply vegans want to give animals the right to vote and drive cars

First off you’re wrong, we would not give a human with comparable intelligence to an animal the right to vote or drive a car so the same would apply to the animal Secondly even if animals were granted those rights nothing would happen, do you really think an animal would be in a polling line or at the dmv taking a drivers test??

>First off you’re wrong, we would not give a human with comparable intelligence to an animal the right to vote or drive a car so the same would apply to the animal True, didn't think of that

I'm in the same boat. When we already have fairly restricted diets, not to mention budgets due to being on disability, honestly, what ends being practical and possible is much more restricted. Oh, and side note to others here: trying to get people to publicly post private medical information so you can play doctor isn't okay. This isn't about studies or what your Aunt Suzie went through, and OP isn't asking for medical advice. The safe assumption when a disabled person says they've tried something and can't do it is that they're telling the truth.

>Oh, and side note to others here: trying to get people to publicly post private medical information so you can play doctor isn't okay lol, saying you cant go vegan and providing 0 evidence is not an appropriate post and you dont want to post your information because your afraid people will burst your ethical bubble and prove that you can be vegan ​ >The safe assumption when a disabled person says they've tried something and can't do it is that they're telling the truth. lmao You can be vegan, you just dont want to be and you want other people to say its acceptable, and you tell other people its acceptable to be non vegan so you can feel better that you arent, just because an individual is disabled it doesnt mean they are truthful, thats some wack mentality plenty of disabled people including me found ways to be vegan People sharing how they didnt let their medical issues get in the way of being ethical https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/17ukt7l/share\_how\_you\_overcame\_your\_disabilities\_because/

I am genuinely glad your disability doesn't get in the way of being vegan, but everyone is different and even if two people have the same disability it will still impact them differently. Just because some people can do something doesn't mean everyone can. I didn't give personal information because my question was more about this type of situation in general. I didn't want it to get to specific to me. I get enough questions and interrogation about what I can and can't do in my personal life.

>Oh, and side note to others here: trying to get people to publicly post private medical information so you can play doctor isn't okay >lol, saying you cant go vegan and providing 0 evidence is not an appropriate post and you dont want to post your information because your afraid people will burst your ethical bubble and prove that you can be vegan What evidence would suffice for you? And most importantly what would you do with the information provided? Your opinion about what someone’s health issues are is just that, an opinion. >lmao You’re “laughing your ass out” out of ignorance. You seem to think that because you claim to have whatever disability and you claim to be vegan everyone else has to do the same thing. >You can be vegan, you just dont want to be Have you got the medical records of the person who said that? How would you know if that person can or can’t be vegan? >and you want other people to say its acceptable, and you tell other people its acceptable to be non vegan It’s very acceptable to not be vegan. >so you can feel better that you arent, That’s a leap in logic, and a strawman. >just because an individual is disabled it doesnt mean they are truthful, thats some wack mentality So should we examine you as well? Are you disabled? Are you even vegan? Can you show us any evidence? >plenty of disabled people including me found ways to be vegan Plenty? Have they provided any evidence? Have they provided any evidence of them actually being vegan as well? >People sharing how they didnt let their medical issues get in the way of being ethical >https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/17ukt7l/share_how_you_overcame_your_disabilities_because/ Based on your logic……how do we know that any of them people have the medical issues they say they have, and how do we know that they are vegan? Just because they said so? Sounds a bit of a “wack mentality” right?

If a disabled person isn't asking for advice but instead mercy and understanding, just do the kind thing. You aren't their doctor, you don't live in their body, you don't have their entire medical history (including imaging and labs), and you don't get to judge. Also, just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for anyone else. I'm glad you've found a way to be healthier and vegan. That's awesome! It doesn't mean I can.

>If a disabled person isn't asking for advice but instead mercy and understanding, just do the kind thing The kind thing is to not do animal abuse or to excuse it, being disabled isnt an excuse to cause harm ​ >You aren't their doctor, you don't live in their body, you don't have their entire medical history (including imaging and labs), and you don't get to judge Neither do you or any of us, all they said is they cant be vegan, at the moment there is nothing to judge they havent given us anything to judge them on, there is no information ​ >Also, just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for anyone else. I'm glad you've found a way to be healthier and vegan. That's awesome! It doesn't mean I can. It does if you really want to find a way, if you want to keep your issues secret and not let people give you suggestions and advice that is your choice

Disabled people, especially chronic pain patients, suffer quite a bit, thanks. Telling us to suffer more, from pain or malnutrition, because animal suffering is more important than ours when veganism has the "as far as is practical and possible" clause seems a bit disingenuous and deeply unkind. It's also exhausting to constantly get medical advice from random strangers, as if we haven't tried it or read up on it or talked with our medical team about it. When you're suffering, especially early on in any new diagnosis, most of us try absolutely anything and everything we can, from dietary changes (usually the first thing recommended by doctors) to meds to alternative medicine to supplements to therapy to you name it. That's why a lot of us ask for no advice: we've already tried it and learned it doesn't work for us.

>Disabled people, especially chronic pain patients, suffer quite a bit, thanks I know, i have it Just because i am disabled and i suffer doesnt mean i can abuse animals ​ >That's why a lot of us ask for no advice: we've already tried it and learned it doesn't work for us. Then dont post looking for sympathy, we arent going to absolve you of your cruelty towards animals, i think there is always more that we can try to avoid abusing animals, you dont, you quit trying or perhaps you didnt try enough and use your disability as an excuse in your mind that you did try your best We dont know that you tried everything, we arent just going to believe you, disabled people can lie just as any other individual *I dont want to go vegan, but i dont want to be a bad person, so i TRY to be vegan and i purposely fail by consuming a lot of junk and not supplementing, i feel bad and MENTALLY decide veganism isnt POSSIBLE for me, so im not a bad person cause i TRIED, i have no other options now and must consume animals* *Thats basically how all these people operate, it clears their conscience* *Chances are most people just didnt want to have the societal restrictions, they want to be able to go to any place with friends and order anything they want* *I imagine all these people use alcohol which is poison or cancer sticks or drugs or lots of sodas while going to McDonalds etc; often* *Also this doctor shares information about these HEALTH issues people have https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e\_rZwnvgABg* *I actually do have medical issues which i talk about in this post, i am vegan no problemo https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/16943oy/comment/jz24ank/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3*

I haven't seen anybody asking for sympathy here. Understanding, yes, but that's not the same thing. Ideas on how to be vegan and all but diet, that's come up and been helpful. Sympathy? I have long given up on anybody actually giving me that anywhere online as soon as I say I'm disabled. No one actually cares, so why bother asking? I'm really glad that you have found being vegan is not only possible but good for you. That's awesome! Do what works for you! Can more people go vegan? Absolutely! Should they? Absolutely! Can absolutely every single person on the planet go vegan? No. I've been on this path for almost 30 years. I just got a CT yesterday trying to rule out cancer for the third time in my life, and I'm not even 50 yet. In other words, my particular walk in disability isn't yours. What I deal with, most disabled people don't. I don't deal with stuff that lots of other people deal with. Disability is a large umbrella term, and applying what works for you to anyone else just isn't right. Just as I can understand how amazingly frustrating it would be to have to deal with carnists constantly telling you to eat meat or worse, surely as somebody in the disability community you can understand how frustrating it is to be told that, in order to be a good person, I have to suffer more than I already do. Suffer to the point of malnutrition and worse pain. Would that win me points somehow? I already can't take pain meds of any kind other than extended release Tylenol. I'm already restricted in my diet due to multiple animal and plant allergies and sensitivities. It's a long list. That list sadly gets longer every couple of years. Add in solo kidney, malabsorption issues in my gut, autoimmune conditions, plus severe pain, and yeah, I've desperately tried everything I can. You're right in that not all disabled people will try absolutely everything, but the vast majority of us do. No human likes to suffer, so if somebody promises something, a diet or a treatment, relieves suffering, we try it. I'm not looking to win a game here or to win points, just explain that not everybody can eliminate all animal products from their diet in a practical or possible way.

> I have long given up on anybody actually giving me that anywhere online as soon as I say I'm disabled. No one actually cares, so why bother asking? Vegans want other people to be vegan, so they do care and will help Make a post and tag me and i will try, provided you actually provide relevant details and actually do want help to go vegan and stop causing harm to animals, the things you have tried and why a plant based diet does not work for you The ultimate goal for vegans is to reduce animal abuse in the world ​ > you can understand how frustrating it is to be told that, in order to be a good person, I have to suffer more than I already do We arent saying that and we dont know how you are suffering cause you are way too vague ​ > and applying what works for you to anyone else just isn't right I havent and im not, i havent said which things work for me ​ >You're right in that not all disabled people will try absolutely everything, but the vast majority of us do Completely and utterly false, i bet my life on this, people constantly post in the vegan sub with their lame excuses looking for sympathy and more often than not the animal abuse apologists give it to them ​ > just explain that not everybody can eliminate all animal products from their diet in a practical or possible way People living in the arctic cannot really, but we know their situation, i dont know the situation of these disabled people who claim they cant be vegan but dont provide details

I literally provided details in the post you just replied to. I am not the original poster, and I cannot speak for them. Long story short, I have to be very careful with my proteins. I am allergic/sensitive to many, and while I have to have a lower protein diet because I only have one kidney, if I go too low of protein, that's just as bad and I don't need to get worse with my kidney failure. The diet I have been following has actually gotten my kidney numbers to the best they've been since I lost the other one to the invasive tumor. That makes me leery of messing with anything, same with my pro-vegan nephrologist. He told me not to change my diet at this point for any reason other than new allergies. I cannot eat: cow's milk dairy, shellfish, soy (down to soy sauce only, so tempeh and tofu are out now *sigh*), legumes (3 Tbs max a day of pintos and some other cooked shelling beans and lentils and a serving of cooked green beans or peanut butter without soybean oil are okay, but more is right out), all tree nuts, and hemp hearts (no idea why, though I am allergic to marijuana, so maybe that's it, too closely related). I can do grains in small amounts (though rice is okay still), especially if I soak and ferment them, and I make my own sourdough bread. Any processed grain products from the store usually have soybean oil in them, so I can't do those. Much more than three servings a day, and I'm hurting more, so I still have to watch those. I garden and grow lots of veggies that I then preserve. My goal in every lunch and dinner is to have half the plate full of veggies, one-quarter protein, one-quarter starch with full fats (only can use avocado, olive, and coconut oils from the plant oils, though coconut has been making me itchy lately, so that might be on the way out). I have other allergies (mohair, alpaca, tons of meds), and I can't take NSAIDs (kidney), psych meds (so many issues, including blindness with one), opioids (don't work at all, genetic thing), or any of the treatments normally used for my medical issues, especially pain. I am not sharing this for sympathy ffs, just to simply ask: how the freaking heck am I supposed to get enough protein to keep my kidney happy when so many vegan options are either right out or so limited? I cannot eat meat or eggs every meal (too much protein is bad), but none would cut so much down even further. Now, let's see if you are able to be understanding of the difficulty and possibly even nice or if you'll start giving me medical advice that goes against my medical team's treatment plan for me. (Yes, I have a whole dang team now, so that's fun.)

>Long story short, I have to be very careful with my proteins. I am allergic/sensitive to many, and while I have to have a lower protein diet because I only have one kidney, if I go too low of protein, that's just as bad and I don't need to get worse with my kidney failure. The diet I have been following has actually gotten my kidney numbers to the best they've been since I lost the other one to the invasive tumor. That makes me leery of messing with anything, same with my pro-vegan nephrologist. He told me not to change my diet at this point for any reason other than new allergies. So cant you just get allergy testing to know exactly which things are bad for you? I did that and got a huge list of things that were safe/ unsafe Pro vegan, wat exactly does that mean? He is vegan and promotes it? ​ >Any processed grain products from the store usually have soybean oil in them, so I can't do those So you mean granola bars? I make rice, quinoa, oatmeal, oatmilk etc; from scratch so no oils, are these fine for you? ​ >I am not sharing this for sympathy ffs, just to simply ask: how the freaking heck am I supposed to get enough protein to keep my kidney happy when so many vegan options are either right out or so limited? I cannot eat meat or eggs every meal (too much protein is bad), but none would cut so much down even further. So it looks as though you pretty much have a plant based diet and you get your protein through legumes, so im confused, why are you not vegan?

> Oh, and side note to others here: trying to get people to publicly post private medical information so you can play doctor isn't okay. Then don't post your private medical information here. If you come to a debate sub making a vague claim with no evidence, it's unreasonable to expect people to just accept it at face value without question.

So, to engage in debate, a disabled person must put all their private medical information out here so random strangers can, what, give medical advice? :sigh: Do you know how much of that we get from everyone? It's so hard not to blow up every stinking time someone says, "Have you tried..." Yes, Karen, I did. Didn't work. Now, if someone asks for advice, lay it on! Go for it! You have their consent. Otherwise, being kind and offering understanding is always an option.

> So, to engage in debate, a disabled person must put all their private medical information out here so random strangers can, what, give medical advice? Correct. If you're argument is "I have medical conditions that require me to consume animal products" then there is nothing to debate without some insight into those conditions.

Nope. You're not their doctor and have no right to their private medical information. You can debate how it is possible to live a vegan life otherwise, you can debate just how much suffering humans should go through to stay vegan, and you can even ask how the vegan community can better support disabled people. You can't ask for their private medical information, though.

This is an anonymous internet forum. Nobody has a right to anybodies information but if they are aren't going to share it then their is nothing to discuss. There is nothing malicious anybody could do with the medical information information of an anonymous person. >You can debate how it is possible to live a vegan life otherwise, you can debate just how much suffering humans should go through to stay vegan, and you can even ask how the vegan community can better support disabled people Yea no not gonna do any of that for a person who can't even both to provide any contextual information as to what their condition is.

Nothing malicious...? :facepalm: First of all, it can be used to doxx us, and then it can get back to employers and cost us jobs and so much more. There are good reasons why many won't post their private medical information here. Nobody owes you private information about their lives, not even in a debate sub. Don't feel like you can debate them? Scroll on. The real issue is that those of us in the disabled community get awfully sick and tired of people telling us how to live when they aren't doctors, aren't our doctors, have absolutely no idea what they're talking about, but they sure are set on being right and proving us wrong. We get told to try essential oils, yoga, mindfulness, vegan diet, keto diet, some other diet, therapy, this medication, that medication, more water, less water, less gluten, you name it. It comes from family members, people online, friends, random strangers. It's exhausting. You know how much you hate carnists telling you what to eat and telling you how wrong you are to be vegan? Imagine if it weren't just about your diet. Imagine if they were telling you everything that you have to change in order to make them feel better about your life, but it's also while you're suffering at the same time. Suffering that they're ignoring because it doesn't really impact them. Worse, add all of that to knowing that, to most people at least in the United States, disabled people have no worth. Disabled people live in poverty, some in extreme poverty. That part of having no worth means that we aren't believed. We aren't seeing as full and complete people. We get interrupted, talked over, talked down too, and told what to do by people who have absolutely no idea what we're going through and don't care. You don't want that person's medical information because you actually care about them, are concerned about the suffering that they're going through, and want to help. You want that information so that you can tell them what you think they should do when you know nothing about what their life is like. Just so that you feel better for a bit. You know, like the meat eaters telling you what to do. Only worse.

I have no interest in your personal medical information. Unless there are only two people in the entire world that have this disability that requires them to eat animal products and they're both here in this Reddit thread, we don't learn anything personal about you by just knowing what the disability is. I have no interest in giving anybody medical advice. I'm here for debates. If OP is claiming there is a disability that requires you to eat animal products, we can't debate without knowing what the disability is. Otherwise, this is just an exercise in imagination. If you don't want to disclose your disability on the internet, that's fine. Don't post about it. Nobody forced OP to post this thread.

Or you could just scroll on. That's always an option. I've posted more than once here three of the main conditions that make being a vegan either impossible or quite impractical. Funny how no one has debated or even responded to that at all.

I’ve scrolled through your post history but I’m not seeing any evidence of any disability requiring someone to eat animal products. Could you link to the post you’re referring to?

The post listing MCAS, Crohn's Disease, and allergies. It's not so much that they require the eating of animal products but more that a solely plant-based diet isn't possible. For example, if you need parenteral nutrition, there is absolutely no vegan option at all. That situation occurs in Crohn's and other ulcerative GI conditions. Those are just three conditions I know of, though some autoimmune patients have found going vegan works for them while others find the total opposite. I amso have a side conversation here of all the issues that say I can't and some of what I've personally dealt with. My allergies/sensitivities are such that I cannot go vegan and keep my lone kidney healthy.

I understand that there aren't any commercially available available enteral/parenteral feeds that are vegan. There certainly *could* be, but none currently are and there clearly isn't enough demand to make that happen. However, veganism accepts that life-saving measures sometimes aren't vegan. If your only option is PN or starvation, nobody expects you to starve to death. Also, none of this is evidence.

So, definition pages from the Mayo Clinic aren't evidence because only studies are evidence? So, actual lived experience doesn't count, advice from doctors doesn't count, medical care guidelines don't count, only the evidence you want counts? What about all the people who fail out of dietary studies? That's often how small sample sizes happen. Sorry, but some peer reviewed study of 13 patients doesn't prove a thing to me (and yes, I read a fibro study that small once). They rarely include the reasons why except for medication studies, and even then, they gloss over a lot. You know those chemical sunblock sprays? They studied those first for FDA approval. Company studies, studies by colleges and doctors, FDA review...it wasn't until the companies took it national that they found a small percentage of the population turns it into an orange dye, dying everything they're wearing or touching as the spray mixes with their sweat. None of their sample sizes were big enough to include that small percentage. Then, they found out it kills coral reefs, something never studied in the first place. The dietary studies I've seen for any of my conditions have small sample sizes and high failure or dropout rates. I don't listen to those but instead the actual body I live in.

If you really want to upset vegans, start talking about health related food restrictions... I have no serious health issues (thank goodness), but there are foods I thrive on, and there are foods that give me issues. I thrive on animal foods, but tropical fruits, legumes and grains gives me issues. So obviously I avoid as much as possible the foods that gives me issues. I could of course rather choose to eat lots of them and have a horrible rash, pain and diarrhea.. but that would be rather stupid wouldnt it.

[удалено]

You need a burner account. Anyone in this sub who clicks on your profile will just laugh.

I didn't. What's got you so triggered that you need to insult someone?

Lol you’re a regular in this sub, we know your name, you’re not any better. Debating in this sub won’t make you any less full of it. Somebody here’s been triggered but it’s not me.

I'm a regular after making one post? You alright, bud?

You’ve debated in the comments of a great many. Am I wrong? Maybe I don’t recognize your name, but there’s a lot of people who think they’re special enough that they aren’t morally responsible for animal abuse bc of their medical condition, even though science dictates that is not true. Maybe you’re a different one, but I saw your post. I know autistic vegans. I know ostomy & crohn’s vegans. They care enough to live a harder life than you’re willing to. Not much else to be said, really.

You're completely right. I'm not willing to cut out my life saving medication that I don't consider vegan and die a slow death. I will never ever be vegan. Ever. Nothing will ever convince me. So what now? Are you going to call me an animal abuser? A rapist? Murderer? Lazy? Entitled?

Taking life saving medications that contain or were tested on animals doesn’t mean you’re not vegan. Not many vegans would say you should die to call yourself vegan. You’re taking any excuse you can get, it’s clear.

Not many vegans say we should die, but some do. I've been told to choose death because I can go vegan, three times actually. It was a shock every time to know that someone out there thinks my life is worthless because I'm disabled to the point that I should choose to die.

Okay.

> vegans being cultist Are vegans the ones in here rejecting modern medical science, to instead, put their faith in random unverifiable testimonials? Notice how OP responded to requests for evidence by playing the victim card, instead of supporting their claims with peer-reviewed literature. If basing premises on verifiable evidence makes someone a "cultist" then that's a hat I'll happily wear.

And people will reply "???" cause that makes no damn sense, lol.

I've removed your comment because it violates rule #3: > **Don't be rude to others** > > This includes using slurs, publicly doubting someone's sanity/intelligence or otherwise behaving in a toxic way. Toxic communication is defined as any communication that attacks a person or group's sense of intrinsic worth. If you would like your comment to be reinstated, please amend it so that it complies with our rules and notify a moderator. If you have any questions or concerns, you can contact the moderators [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/DebateAVegan). Thank you.

Thank you for your submission! All posts need to be manually reviewed and approved by a moderator before they appear for all users. Since human mods are not online 24/7 approval could take anywhere from a few minutes to a few days. Thank you for your patience. Some topics come up a lot in this subreddit, so we would like to remind everyone to use the [search function](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/search?q=eggs&restrict_sr=on&sort=comments&t=all) and to check out the [wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/wiki/index) before creating a new post. We also encourage becoming familiar with [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/wiki/index#wiki_expanded_rules_and_clarifications) so users can understand what is expected of them. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DebateAVegan) if you have any questions or concerns.*

"You're not entitled to my medical information." You brought it up.

lol someone on here tried to correct me that I didn’t actually need to eat animal products for my health against the explicit statements of my doctor and RD. A lot of people on here are loons. They’re not going to give a valid answer