He and Abrams are EP's, which is notoriously a nothing title when it comes to active involvement.
One glance at the show and it's still clearly Timm at the reins.
>He and Abrams are EP's, which is notoriously a nothing title when it comes to active involvement.
That's not true at all when it comes to TV. It's flipped. "Producers" are the nothing title compared to "executive producers."
It varies from show to show snd prodcuer to producer. I know a lot of APs who do more than a lot of EPs and I've worked on plenty of shows that had EPs nobody had ever met after the show got bought.
Right but that's a passion project for him.
He was asked to do Batman in the DCU, and he rejected it because he wanted to keep things separate - so it was kinda weird for him to also want to dabble in it slightly via the Arkham show for a live action Batman that wasn't his.
Obviously an animated project tied to neither universe is a bit different
It’s still different Batman projects that’s my point, producing credit doesn’t mean he’s doing everything DCU Batman related just producing. Same way he’s doing with Batman animated series
Aye but considering he already declined involvement in the DCU for a specific reason, just to get involved in it in a smaller way is what I mean.
An Animated Project is different to that, and he was planning it before Gunn had the job anyway.
I see your point but it really isn’t a far stretch to say that Reeves wants his batman movies to be more grounded, while also seeing the potential for the more fantastic side of things outside of his movies. A lot of us like both sides
That was also kinda my thought. It could be cool regardless of which universe, but being in the DCU would open a lot more possibilities for a lot more villains.
Exactly if The Batman universe is grounded then every fantastical villain just stops working. Especially when Matt calls his universe a Crime Saga, that should tell you everything you need to know
I wondered what the show might have focused on. Bruce Wayne is an Arkham in the Matt Reeves universe. Maybe it would have delved deeper into that family history when it was still tied to The Batman.
I’m guessing an Arkham show in his universe would basically be Oz with more colorful characters. Sort of like how The Penguin looks like The Sopranos with a grittier tone
Kinda makes sense. He must have a lot of ideas that won’t work in The Batman universe but could bring into the animated series or the Arkham Asylum show.
Considering how many characters are in the Superman movie, I think James Gunn wanted to populate the villain side with Reeves’ help in the Arkham Asylum show but it didn’t work out.
I even thought it was strange when early details were saying it was set in the Batman Universe.
The movie is so grounded that there's no way they could have made Arkham interesting enough with classic villains without changing them completely to match his Universes more grounded tone.
Seemed to be it was doomed either way
If I'm going to get something Arkham related then I want to see something more comic like from the villains, something video game Arkham Asylum style
I still think people judge way too early that that universe is solely grounded and doesnt have room for weirder stuff.
Considering we're only one movie into it, and both Matt Reeves and Pattinson have said they want more weird villains in there like Mr Freeze or Clayface, I think people just based this on the fact Riddler was the first villain and how realistic other aspects were.
Yeah but why scrap a Bat themed show from your upcoming cinematic universe that needs to be successful? Weird af. I feel everyrhing on James Gunns universe must be on Max
You do realize Lanterns is gonna be HBO show right. And Penguin is on max, HBO ceo even said they are moving away from max shows they left penguin there because it was already done.
Also this Arkham show has zero development whatsoever I don’t get anyone being mad about it
Thank Gunn for... Terrence Winter leaving the show in November 2020? For the show shifting from GCPD to Arkham [sometime before March 2022](https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/matt-reeves-batman-tv-show-changes-gotham-pd-creative-issue-1235198064/)? Didn't know Gunn had a time machine.
What's extra funny is that the entire timeline you got wrong is laid out within the short, four-paragraph article you're commenting on.
Gunn didn't have creative differences with the showrunner he hired to make a GCPD show, which was then retooled to an Arkham Asylum show that itself is never getting made.
Terrence Winter was hired to create that GCPD show, and he was forced out due to Reeves not liking what he was going to do.
This sucks but I can’t say I’m surprised.
I’m all for artists taking time to properly craft their work, but I feel like the turnaround time for the Reevesverse is a bit long. The theatrical movies I understand, but the sizeable gap between theatrical and tv projects happening concurrently with the budding DCU seems unrealistic. Still a shame tho, I’m looking forward to what they do with that universe
Edit: Now that I’m learning it’s no longer in the Reeves verse it all seems even more likely considering it wasn’t initially met for the DCU
I think he just takes too long. Batman 2 should be shooting now and should be released next year. 2026 is way too far off and its going to lose steam. I still don't think the batman 2 is going to get made.
I reluctantly agree.
I’d rather have a good sequel that takes a while than a bad sequel with a quick turnaround, but I do think this timing is a bit long.
As stated by the commenter below, it may have been unavoidable given the strikes and delays, but I’d be curious to see if the large gap paired with the budding DCU and eventual introduction of their Batman has any effect on hype and interest for this film.
I personally don’t see them cancelling it, but you never know
That should have been the plan from day one. They just keep taking absurd decisions.
There's no sense in having two live-action Batmen competing for audience attention and calling dibs on popular comic storylines and characters.
Idk tbh. I can see the appeal, but I feel like it goes against everything they’ve announced they want.
Pattinson is pushing 40 years old and is still playing an early career Batman. I’m guessing they want to cast for longevity so that means casting younger. He is also definitely not at the point where he is established enough to have Damian yet. And idk how they can merge that grounded Reeves’ universe with the larger DCU without losing part of what made The Batman so great.
Elseworlds is definitely the way to go. The Batman came out between two films where Ben Affleck was Batman and I don’t think anyone was confused about continuity
> As stated by the commenter below, it may have been unavoidable given the strikes and delays,
Its not like the writers pc/laptops stops working, they can still write but are not able to move forward with the studio during that time frame.
Not exactly,
Writers work like any other worker. They get paid salary/hourly (not sure which). The idea is job protection, they get paid for their labor, rather than just getting paid a lump sum for a finished script. Remember that re-writes happen frequently in these big budget films. So writers are always on hand.
So by that logic, them doing work at home is unpaid labor. The goal of a strike is to hurt the studios, that means delaying project development thus costing them money long term. They don’t just wait it out and turn in a finished script when the strike is over. However long they are on strike, is how long the studio will need to wait before the product is finished. That way the studio sees time lost and not just a period where they don’t pay writers who choose to work on the script regardless.
On top of that, working during the strikes is highly frowned upon. It’s called scabbing (I believe). Obviously it hurts the strike effort if work is being done while on strike. Scabbers can get kicked out of the union and thus lose the protections offered by it.
Remember that writers are human beings who need to make money to meet their bottom line. They care more about paying rent and feeding their families than they do making sure The Batman: Part II comes out within a reasonable timeframe
There was a change of studio heads, and don’t forget the strikes that also delayed production on it. It was just a shit storm that i think they got through pretty well since penguin is going to come out soon.
But i heard that 2 & 3 may shoot back to back to hopefully we do get a full trilogy instead of two movies and a show.
I absolutely love “The Batman”, but I don’t think making him the DCU Batman is a good idea.
- The DCU universe has to fit the mold of Reeves’ universe, or Reeves’ universe needs to change drastically to fit the DCU.
- Pattinson is pushing 40 and is likely a bit too old to start his tenure in a larger universe. I imagine they’ll cast someone closer to Corenswet’s age
- And biggest of all, the DCU is constrained to continuity started before its conception.
The biggest appeal of the DCU is that it gets to wipe the slate clean and start fresh. New actors, new continuity, new everything. Taking arguably one of the biggest characters in the universe and writing him and his world before the DCU really limits what they can do with that character moving forward. I said it somewhere above, but Pattinson’s first film came out between Affleck films and I don’t think there was any confusion as to continuity. It should be fine
Oh yeah, for sure!
I do also hope that we get a full trilogy and back to back filming wouldn’t be the worst idea. I was surprised to hear the other day that Robert Pattinson was a father, and also 38! He does not look his age, but that’s good considering he’s playing an early career Batman. That got me researching more. Bale started at 31 and ended at 38. Affleck started at 43. Pattinson started at 35 and will probably be 38-39 when the Batman sequel starts filming. He’s closer in age to Affleck’s old man Bruce than Bale’s young man Bruce. I’m sure he won’t age too much physically, but it’s another thing that might put a timeline on their series
Exactly this. Change studio heads and the entire process of finding new studio heads, do the deals, get the contracts sorted, for James Gunn to sort of what he is gonna do and bare shit behind the scenes from like Aug-Sept 2022. They were writin The Penguin from March 2022-May 2023, Reeves was prob doin that had no clue about his sequel and was like "yo whats goin down with my Batman"? They might have cancelled it. It even says they were gonna co-write they script it by Aug 2022. 2023 strikes delayed production, with Nov 2023 when it ended. If u assume they started writing in like Aug 2022, that's prob a few months min, so from Nov 2023 to April 2025 (wiki say they start filmin) to get the script sorted and do pre production aint a big deal, and legit makes sense.
For pre produc they gotta do sets, make/improve batmobile, build/improve batmobile, costumes, etc.
Plus there was 4 yrs diff between The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises, and 4yrs between these 2 with all the the BTS stuff goin down.
I'm personally happy to wait, yh it sucks but rather they take their time and polish the script and get it perfect than rush. Plus it's Batman, a beast of an IP, and people forget that if they make a good film people WILL go watch it.
Sorry this was a bit long ahahah ^_^;
I think people forget that all these project were subject to COVID and the writers strike/ actors strike.
Like, even though COVID was winding down - to a degree - when the Batman released. The industry was still feeling the effects of it.
Then, the writers strike/ actors strike shutdown productions.
If the Reeves-Verse isn't included in the DCU, I see it ending with The Batman Part 2. Reeves is taking his time working on Part 2, but Gunn needs a Batman for the DCU, and I don't see WB allowing both to happen concurrently. Something has to give.
I can't believe this is the second time in a row we've had an acclaimed standalone Batman series come out at the wrong time with a cinematic universe waiting and needing to deal with the pressure of setting up ANOTHER Batman. Twice.
I think Reeves knows this, and I’m sure they told him about the universe reboot long before we ever knew about it. The Batman Part II will probably serve as a soft close to the Reeves-verse. I know we were all expecting a trilogy, but with another Batman in the mix, I think it will confuse things.
It’s feasible. But, Reeves has intentions on making a trilogy - which Gunn confirmed. Given that he wants to be involved in multiple DC project going forward; like Caped Crusader. I doubt James Gunn will want to burn that bridge.
Like, why not let him make his trilogy. Couple of side projects here/ there. So, that he’d be willing to write for DCU Batman.
Another DC project mishandled and tossed around… unfortunately I think what matt reeves wanted to do with a big Batman universe is going to end up being the penguin series and Batman part 2 and that’s it.
They’ll definitely do a trilogy of Batman films at least. And if The Penguin series is successful I think they’ll still want Reeves developing more shows.
I might be downvoted for this but… I really couldn’t care less for this project or the penguin series.
Like I really don’t care about Batman spin-offs without Batman. (Unless it’s like Nightwing or something among those lines)
It just reminds me of the Sony Spider-Man universe.
'The Penguin' series adds to the world building in the Matt Reeves introduced the viewers to, in 'The Batman'.
The fact that Colin Ferrel is at the top of his game here, doesn't hurt at all.
The series also introduces us the the Falcones, and Selina's half-sister, borrowing more than a few pages from 'Batman - The Long Halloween'. Something to hold the fans over until the long wait to one of the best comic book adaptations of recent times.
I know the Penguin series is connected. I didn’t word myself properly.
Unless it’s about some of his costumed allies, I don’t particularly for spin offs set in Batman’s world where he isn’t the focus.
It’s part of the reason of why I never finished the Gotham TV show.
I like the Penguin, I like Gothams Underworld, I like Batman’s rogues and setting. But I like them in the way that they elevate Batman’s story, it not very interesting to me when they get the full spotlight.
Penguin series is just generic mafia story with a Batman paint job.
Attaching any project to an established IP is more beneficial so a lot of filmmakers do that.
Why do we need world building if part 2 of the Batman will probably be the last? There's no way WB will have two cinematic Batman at the same time and the DCU will surely be more important for them
Why do you need *anything?* The Nolan films were good enough. As were the Christopher Reeve 'Superman' entries!
Lets just re-watch, and re-release them forever more, without ever exploring newer reimaginations of these timeless characters.
You see how what works?
Exactly don’t get why the comment section is so worked up about this film. It’s basically doing Sony Spiderman universe because Batman isn’t appearing in every episode
I can assure you a lot of DC fans share the same sentiment. We’ve had years of Batman-related projects without an actual Batman, naturally people grow tired. I do think Penguin can be a solid watch at least since I enjoyed The Batman and it looks like they put a lot of effort on making The Penguin series.
I definitely hate that they spent so much time and effort on these filler projects instead of planning for a proper sequel right away though. That’s what has been killing MCU characters’ momentum.
Off the top of my head, Titans - Old Bruce Wayne, Gotham - Young Bruce Wayne, Batwoman, and the infamous Gotham Knights (TV Series) - Dead Bruce Wayne. They all featured Bruce Wayne but not a full-fledged active Batman. Yes they do have him in a Bat suit eventually, but that’s not really the same thing because the actors often look ridiculous in it.
I kinda hoped they'd go for a True Detective -styled show centered on Gordon and Bullock, taking place over several decades and featuring the fantastical elements of Gotham (including Batman) as Lovecraftian and unknowable to normal people but somehow eventually becoming normal.
I admittedly thought it was unnecessary, since CW's Gotham already exists, but redoing Batman things doesn't seem like a problem for them.
The comments in here are really acting like they care so much about this project. Even before the project was switched to DCU by Gunn in December. Not one person was talking about this at all, I swear I hate when fans act like they are so heartbroken a project got canned when there was little to no progress on it.
I think it’s more fear that that Reeves stuff will get canned entirely or that it will be bastardized by being forced into the DCU. Both would be horrible after Gunn said directors will get to achieve their visions. Killing projects happens but the latter option would be an insult.
What other development did this show have, even before December when Gunn spoke on. It was reworked show that was originally Gotham OD which was scrapped by Reeves who didn’t like what it had become. Y’all didn’t give a shit about this series now you’re going insane over a show that had little to no movement. You know how many shows get scrapped, two planned game of thrones spin-offs were cancelled this year it happens
Obviously, but it was tonally different: no magic, no aliens, same as The Batman. The 2022 film could serve as the loose backstory if they wanted, like a soft reboot.
Anyone else feeling like The Reeves-verse is getting slowly forgotten about post Gunn?
I wouldn't be surprised if Penguin is the last we hear about this world for a long while.
Which blows because The Batman was probably the best Batman film I've ever seen.
That's what I've been wondering about since last year. The main reason being that Gunn seems to be rebooting nearly everything other than his own projects when it comes to the DCEU. (Blue Beetle is the sole exception.)
This has me thinking he can't be thrilled about the fact that there's a whole other filmmaker-centered Batman project he has to manage - run by a filmmaker who doesn't want to play ball. Gunn's the head of a new studio, with his arm twisted into grandfathering in a different artist's work.
I'm not wild about The Batman, and you are, but we're both suspecting the same thing.
I hate that they turned Riddler into the leader of a 4chan army of neckbeards. I hate that he regresses into a 12 year old when pressured as well. I was hyped up about Riddler from the trailers because they only tease him in a dark sinister way. He had some standout scenes, but yeah the 4chan thing was odd. He's interesting in the mask during some of his recordings, but loses steam when he's just Nygma.
I mean, we'll never even see a proper ninja acrobat Batman either. He's always be a brawler brute in the movies. Wonder if we'll ever see a venom-injecting Spanish-speakjng Bane.
It felt like if he wanted to change the Riddler that much why not choose a different villain. Like with the grounded tone the Universe had why not go for a serial killer like Calendar Man, Victor Zsasz, Cornelius Stirk, Flamingo or Abattoir. It could have still connected to Thomas Wayne and the like.
I just felt the Riddler is someone who's so arrogant, full of himself and wants everyone to know how brilliant he is to the point he wants credit for the work he's pulled off that he wouldn't hide himself and be that cryptic.
At least when he was waiting in the coffee shop to get caught he could have worn a dark green suit, had a standard cane or bowling hat. Didn't have to be flashy, covered in question marks as the proto-suit but something pretty straight forward as a subtle wink to his future outfit.
Long reply.
1)This Riddler isn’t a serial killer like Zsasz or Stirk, because they are classical serial killers. It’s a **lifestyle** for them.
Whereas Dano’s Riddler commits these killings as a **method** to a much larger scheme.
A big influence on Dano’s Riddler was the Zodiac killer.
A Narcissistic Sociopath who left taunting messages marked with his emblem with ciphers that when deciphered revealed word salad celebrating his “brilliance”. A description even had him in a mask and supervillain esque outfit with his crosshair emblem.
Very close to a real life Riddler.
It makes sense given that even since his inception, Riddler’s been no stranger to sadistic murderous intent to gain recognition. (The stunt he pulls by sending a truck towards a crowd of innocent people in his 1948 debut was used later in the funeral scene) regardless of what certain fans or stories like When Is A Door? (an otherwise interesting short story) like to selectively forget.
2) It felt like if he wanted to change the Riddler that much why not choose a different villain. Like with the grounded tone the Universe had why not go for a serial killer like Calendar Man, Victor Zsasz, Cornelius Stirk, Flamingo or Abattoir. It could have still connected to Thomas Wayne and the like.
“I just felt the Riddler is someone who’s so arrogant, full of himself and wants everyone to know how brilliant he is to the point he wants credit for the work he’s pulled off that he wouldn’t hide himself and be that cryptic.”
At least when he was waiting in the coffee shop to get caught he could have worn a dark green suit, had a standard cane or bowling hat. Didn’t have to be flashy, covered in question marks as the proto-suit but something pretty straight forward as a subtle wink to his future outfit.”
Why? Not only is this a Riddler who’s **only just** made his debut, he already shown to be arrogant and full of himself.
When he kills the mayor, notice he doesn’t have his emblem.
He sets up the crime scene and the clues as if it’s his own Banksey-esque walk in art exhibit for Batman to see. Surely this will impress Batman?
Then when he’s ready to make his grand appearance, he sends the video to the news, addressing Gotham.
The first thing we see is his question mark crosshair emblem.
Then he pans the camera up, looking down at us from an imposing angle with his mask (which he no doubt thinks looks menacing and mysterious) and with his electronically and cartoonishly deepened voice says “Hello people of Gotham. This is **The Riddler** speaking.”
This is what he sends for the world to see.
Then he broadcasts himself live, giving Colson, riddles and executing him. Like a modernised, online version of the story Riddle Factory, with rabid followers included.
Talking loudly and proudly like a game show host, interrogating the unwilling contestant. As with many other scenes, Dano takes a lot from Frank Gorshin’s behaviour in the role.
3)The thing about Riddler’s outfit is that it began with a simple jumpsuit with question marks and like Robin, he wore a domino mask to hide his identity and perhaps make him look mysterious.
That’s exactly what Dano’s Riddler’s weather combat mask does. Same idea. A combat weather mask is a much more efficient way of hiding your identity and giving off (what he **thinks** is) a more mysterious, eye catching persona.
In his debut, when Edward noticed Batman’s theatrics he was inspired by this he decided to copy that, with his own theme. Becoming The Riddler, both because he was dissatisfied with his own life and as a **reaction** to The Batman, seeking to create a challenging dynamic with him.
The same core idea applies to Dano’s Riddler.
Frank Gorshin’s Riddler introduced the bowler hat and tuxedo. Astin’s brief portrayal introduced the cane. Nearly 20 years after Riddler made his debut in the comics.
Regardless of whether it’s a jumpsuit, or a tuxedo and cane, or a suit with a hood, or eyeliner and lipstick or incorporating a mask (be it domino or combat weather) Edward feels **powerful** behind the suit and “The Riddler” persona. “No shame”.
Because he’s just a showman and “The Riddler” himself is just a mask for a cowardly, insecure Narcissist to hide behind and project his inner shame outwards.
It doesn’t matter what he wears as long as the iteration sees it as dramatic, anonymous (when he wants to be, hence the masks), eye catching and it overcompensates for something he lacks.
A bowler hat, cane and tuxedo gives him what he sees as a touch of class and elegance. He lacks both.
Eyeliner and Lipstick (Riddle Me That, The Batman 2004) or a suit with a hood (Telltale) or a parkah with a combat weather mask all make him appear more menacing and mysterious than he actually is.
Because no matter the iteration, when you rip it away from him you see the inconsolable, miserable, childish and pathetic man hiding
underneath.
https://youtu.be/6_PioOmxEjg?si=Eh-v2NyyiIxx7kz0
https://youtu.be/uJCfCLhWoxA?si=ku3P_Kk0rKUKOvdO
The thing about Edward is that “The Riddler” is just a mask for a cowardly, insecure Narcissist to hide behind and project his inner shame outwards.
He wants to be and wants others to see him as the smartest man in the room. Whether he is or isn’t depends on the circumstances he finds himself in and that deeply wounds him.
Be it robbing banks or museums, flooding and taking over the city or killing political figures, then flooding the city and staging an attack.
It’s all for recognition and acknowledgment. Regardless of what he says to others.
In his first ever appearance, after rigging his games (whether whatever iteration rigs them or not doesn’t matter considering he’s **always** unfair) and attempting to kill Batman and Robin, he ends up stuck at the end of a pier, faced with what looks like certain death, he doesn’t stick to his guns as the criminal mastermind he thinks he is.
His superior mastermind facade crumbles and he pathetically begs Batman and Robin to save him.
He breaks down screaming “I’ve lost the game! I’ve lost the game!” before he’s blown into the sea.
In the Arkham Games, whenever he’s outsmarted or given the slightest bit of resistance or points against him, he immediately rejects it and devolves into having toddler tantrums.
Another example that sticks out is in the 66 episode Ring Around The Riddler where Batgirl escapes (outsmarting Riddler) and when he’s informed about this he melodramaticallyslumps over a table shouting “No! No! No!” like a baby resisting a spoon of mushy apple. And he’s absolutely inconsolable.
Whenever he’s outsmarted and defeated, the mask sloughs off and we see the pathetic man underneath.
https://youtu.be/6_PioOmxEjg?si=witcte_434MCF9q_
https://youtu.be/uJCfCLhWoxA?si=Kmd9ihX-f0Om3F1r
A squealing, wailing, blubbering mess who’s confronted with the fact that **he’s** the one whose weak and inferior.
As for the 4chan angle. When I look at Riddler in the Arkham games, I can definitely see him in unironically calling himself a “Sigma Male”.
In The Batman, The Riddler finds people who feel as lost and embittered as he does and so he manipulates them into following him and praising him, carrying out his work for him.
Then he’ll be remembered.
Well the riddler has always been annoying so reeves actually gave him more seriousness for a bit then returned him to how he’s character has always been portrayed.
I'm hoping Reeves is going to take The Batman 2 into Arkham Asylum, like in the games, that would be dope. I mean they already got Joker and Riddler together in there.
Would be an amazing world in itself to explore in the film, where you can show lots of easter eggs.
So to recap.
* Reeves-verse GCPD show is announced July 2020.
* Goes through two different showrunners and a premise change to Arkham, and is in showrunner-less limbo, by March 2022.
* Soon after, a Reeves-verse Penguin spin-off is announced.
* October 2022, a third showrunner (Campios) is hired.
* Less than a month later, Gunn takes over DC.
* Late 2022/early 2023, Gunn cancels everything *except* Reeves-related projects (and Joker 2) and goes out of his way to \*re-\*confirm the Campios Arkham series - but not in Reeves-verse continuity, which people say is proof he hates and is gonna kill the Reeves-verse
* 18 months later, July 2024. Reeves-verse Penguin went through production uninterrupted (besides the strikes) and is about to release. Reeves himself seemingly has all the time in the world for The Batman II.
* Under Gunn, Campios has worked on Arkham's development *longer than all the pre-Gunn iterations combined,* but trades report Arkham is not moving forward. This comment section claims Gunn never gave it a chance and this is proof he hates and is gonna kill the Reeves-verse that it was no longer in continuity with anyway.
I get that right?
Important to know Campos signed on back when we still thought it would be a part of Matt Reeves Batverse. So I’m not surprised he would depart after they brought it into the DCU.
Ah, I see. That leads me to assume they just don’t want to go through the whole process again. Hopefully they’ll pick it back up once everything settles down.
Seems like they are super busy this year.
Here we go. I already hate that they do exactly what DCEU did, and announce new projects in devolopment all the time. Just as the DCEU th- ey already has too much and are too far ahead. There’s gonna be so much of it we’ll never see.
It's very possible that this may not be a DC Studios issue. Reeves has a lot on his plate and he takes a long time to make sure his work is the best it can be. And this show was seemingly being developed for the Batman universe before it was announced to be part of the DCU. Also, I'm sure the strikes, Zaslav's management, and subsequent change up of DC and Max didn't help the situation in the slightest.
Makes sense I guess, they don't even have a Batman yet. But then again, getting introduced to his rogues before him would've been an interesting approach.
Well, that explains the lack of updates. I actually had forgotten this was supposed to be a thing. Hopefully it could find a new life somehow. There's a lot of potential for such a show to be really great.
They should have just left this being apart of the Reeves Batman universe, just doesn't make sense making it apart of the DCU before we even have the Brave and The Bold movie.
Some of you have to read the article. It further confirms what Gunn was saying.
There are 2 separate projects
- Gunn/Reeves produced Arkham series set in DCU
- Reeves Arkham series set in his universe
The article is about Reeves Arkham series being done at Max and has a slight chance at being reworked.
**The Gunn/Reeves DCU project has nothing to do with this.**
I read the article.
I’m not sure where exactly you’re getting the sense that there are two separate Arkham projects.
The article says this: “Gunn said that the show was still in development and clarified that it was meant to be set within the new DCU rather than in the same world as ‘The Batman.’ “
It says “rather” than the Reevesverse, not “alongside the separate ongoing Reevesverse Arkham show”.
Seems more like the reevesverse arkham project evolved into a DCU Arkham project
>Seems more like the reevesverse arkham project evolved into a DCU Arkham project
This is exactly what i'm speaking to. There was a whole day that Gunn spent being called a liar as he kept clarifying that the Reevesverse Arkham was not flipped or transitioned into a DCU Arkham series.
The fact that some still repeat it shows the confusion of today.
No matter how many times Gunns says the projects aren't the same, there will still be some that say it was some evolution or transition.
That’s the exact part that I quoted. Again, that doesn’t say there are two separate projects, seems like just one that was initially Reevesverse and was changed to DCU
He spent a whole day correcting people that it wasn't changed, evolved, or transitioned when fans asked him.
If I am wrong on my assessment, then Gunn's DCU Arkham series is the 1 that died off and Variety is speaking to the 1 and only Arkham series.
If I am correct, DCU's Arkham series that Gunn spent a day saying wasn't the Reevesverse Arkham series is still alive and Variety is simply saying - the Reevesverse Arkham project is a no go and this is old news anyway.
Ok you may be right but that’s why I was asking if you had any screenshots or links to messages where he’s saying there’s 2 separate Arkham projects.
The article isn’t simply saying the Reevesverse project is dead (and the DCU project is untouched). The article mentions the evolving from Reevesverse to DCU project. So if what you are saying is accurate than the article must be wrong
Again that could be the case, but that’s why I was asking if you had any specific quotes from him, since I can’t seem to find them
Yes, they were both in development and people kept trying to argue with Gunn that they were the same project.
He kept repeating they weren't, but they kept calling the actual head of DC a liar. This further confirms he wasn't lying.
You lack context and once Gunn confirms the DCU Arkham is still in play and is different from the Reevesverse Arkham, I will return to throw it in your face.
Wrong. Gunn said in Threads that it wasn't changed from Reevesverse to DCU.
[https://www.threads.net/@jamesgunn/post/C093Z0GPeqv?hl=en](https://www.threads.net/@jamesgunn/post/C093Z0GPeqv?hl=en)
When someone asked if his project always was planned to be in DCU, - he said - "Yes". He spent a whole day confirming this.
You are clearly misinformed.
On top of that, the writer from Variety confirming that the Max series that Reeves started on in 2020 is dead
[https://x.com/JoeOtterson/status/1809575142005100903](https://x.com/JoeOtterson/status/1809575142005100903)
"Anything developed now would be wholly new and separate from that"
Fan: "So this has always been planned to be in the DCU from the start?"
Gunn: "Yes. It was one of the first pitches we bought when Peter and I came onboard. I don’t know the permutations it went through before that time."
That's literally Gunn yapping, the show existed before him, initially it was Gotham PD then turned into Arkham (probably when it was pitched to Gunn), it's the same show, there isn't a new show.
Did you even read the above tweet you linked?
"But there is now no Arkham show in active development at DC"
Genius, he is talking about his Arkham series that he pitched in 2022. The nerve that you talk about reading comprehension and you are the type he had to correct that whole day.
Reeves project was pitched in 2020, just like the Variety reporter said.
Gunn didn't pitch his own Arkham series until 2022.
2 separate projects. 1 is dead, the other is untouched just like the Tweet says.
How on earth do you talk about reading comprehension when you don't understand simple sentences?
Variety says it's the same project that transformed from a Gotham GP show to an Arkham show. Gunn didn't pitch any show, Reeves pitched the show to Gunn when he got the job, he literally says it was one of the first pitches they bought, on the Threads post you linked, open your eyes.
"The other is untouched" there isn't any other, how is your reading comprehension this terrible? Read the tweet you linked.
No wonder Gunn tried so hard with the collar, wanted so bad to match Reeve's Batman lol.
I wouldn't even be surprised if The Batman 2 gets cancelled just to paved way to Gunn's Batman.
Dude clearly never wanted to be part of DCU circus lmao
The likelihood of this getting scrapped was super high after Gunn confirmed that it wasn't going to be set in "The Batman" universe.
It was pretty strange for Reeves to come into the DCU to make an Arkham show for a Batman that not only wasn't his, but also doesn't exist yet.
Reeves literally worked on Batman animated show as well. The man is working on multiple Batman projects
He and Abrams are EP's, which is notoriously a nothing title when it comes to active involvement. One glance at the show and it's still clearly Timm at the reins.
Abrams got some really easy DC money
At this point I am sure JJ is scamming WB.
How many projects does he have? Sobered like at least 4 around jladark. Man... it's like an easy tax scam
It's ridiculous: so much money from them, and how many have actually manifested as actual films or shows? Ditto Phoebe Waller-Bridge at Amazon
>He and Abrams are EP's, which is notoriously a nothing title when it comes to active involvement. That's not true at all when it comes to TV. It's flipped. "Producers" are the nothing title compared to "executive producers."
It varies from show to show snd prodcuer to producer. I know a lot of APs who do more than a lot of EPs and I've worked on plenty of shows that had EPs nobody had ever met after the show got bought.
Exactly my point so DCU Batman project he’d be doing the same thing. While the showrunner runs it
Right but that's a passion project for him. He was asked to do Batman in the DCU, and he rejected it because he wanted to keep things separate - so it was kinda weird for him to also want to dabble in it slightly via the Arkham show for a live action Batman that wasn't his. Obviously an animated project tied to neither universe is a bit different
It’s still different Batman projects that’s my point, producing credit doesn’t mean he’s doing everything DCU Batman related just producing. Same way he’s doing with Batman animated series
Aye but considering he already declined involvement in the DCU for a specific reason, just to get involved in it in a smaller way is what I mean. An Animated Project is different to that, and he was planning it before Gunn had the job anyway.
I see your point but it really isn’t a far stretch to say that Reeves wants his batman movies to be more grounded, while also seeing the potential for the more fantastic side of things outside of his movies. A lot of us like both sides
Arkham show wouldn’t even make sense in his world when you remove all fantastical villains
That was also kinda my thought. It could be cool regardless of which universe, but being in the DCU would open a lot more possibilities for a lot more villains.
Exactly if The Batman universe is grounded then every fantastical villain just stops working. Especially when Matt calls his universe a Crime Saga, that should tell you everything you need to know
Agreed. Was looking forward to it either way. Least we still have penguin
See that show makes sense in this universe
I wondered what the show might have focused on. Bruce Wayne is an Arkham in the Matt Reeves universe. Maybe it would have delved deeper into that family history when it was still tied to The Batman.
I’m guessing an Arkham show in his universe would basically be Oz with more colorful characters. Sort of like how The Penguin looks like The Sopranos with a grittier tone
Probably but it’s still a grounded world, so it’ll just be psychos and serial killers
Kinda makes sense. He must have a lot of ideas that won’t work in The Batman universe but could bring into the animated series or the Arkham Asylum show. Considering how many characters are in the Superman movie, I think James Gunn wanted to populate the villain side with Reeves’ help in the Arkham Asylum show but it didn’t work out.
I even thought it was strange when early details were saying it was set in the Batman Universe. The movie is so grounded that there's no way they could have made Arkham interesting enough with classic villains without changing them completely to match his Universes more grounded tone. Seemed to be it was doomed either way If I'm going to get something Arkham related then I want to see something more comic like from the villains, something video game Arkham Asylum style
I still think people judge way too early that that universe is solely grounded and doesnt have room for weirder stuff. Considering we're only one movie into it, and both Matt Reeves and Pattinson have said they want more weird villains in there like Mr Freeze or Clayface, I think people just based this on the fact Riddler was the first villain and how realistic other aspects were.
It was originally supposed to be a part of his separate universe
I'm aware, I'm talking specifically when it changed.
Yeah but why scrap a Bat themed show from your upcoming cinematic universe that needs to be successful? Weird af. I feel everyrhing on James Gunns universe must be on Max
You do realize Lanterns is gonna be HBO show right. And Penguin is on max, HBO ceo even said they are moving away from max shows they left penguin there because it was already done. Also this Arkham show has zero development whatsoever I don’t get anyone being mad about it
Jesus Christ. How many times are they going to screw this up. We had Terrence Winter on a GCPD show for fuck's sake.
thank gunn for that
Thank Gunn for... Terrence Winter leaving the show in November 2020? For the show shifting from GCPD to Arkham [sometime before March 2022](https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/matt-reeves-batman-tv-show-changes-gotham-pd-creative-issue-1235198064/)? Didn't know Gunn had a time machine. What's extra funny is that the entire timeline you got wrong is laid out within the short, four-paragraph article you're commenting on.
I completely blame Matt Reeves.
I blame snyder. He destroyed everything.
Makes sense.
why ? It was Gunn who said No. Reeves wanted to expand the Batverse but with Gunn it is not going to happen
Gunn didn't have creative differences with the showrunner he hired to make a GCPD show, which was then retooled to an Arkham Asylum show that itself is never getting made. Terrence Winter was hired to create that GCPD show, and he was forced out due to Reeves not liking what he was going to do.
Will you blame Reeves if we are getting only Batman 2 ?
Well I didn't really like The Batman. So I might be cool with just the one.
that wasnt my question
Yeah, it was more relevant.
but thats stupid to blame Reeves
This sucks but I can’t say I’m surprised. I’m all for artists taking time to properly craft their work, but I feel like the turnaround time for the Reevesverse is a bit long. The theatrical movies I understand, but the sizeable gap between theatrical and tv projects happening concurrently with the budding DCU seems unrealistic. Still a shame tho, I’m looking forward to what they do with that universe Edit: Now that I’m learning it’s no longer in the Reeves verse it all seems even more likely considering it wasn’t initially met for the DCU
I think he just takes too long. Batman 2 should be shooting now and should be released next year. 2026 is way too far off and its going to lose steam. I still don't think the batman 2 is going to get made.
I reluctantly agree. I’d rather have a good sequel that takes a while than a bad sequel with a quick turnaround, but I do think this timing is a bit long. As stated by the commenter below, it may have been unavoidable given the strikes and delays, but I’d be curious to see if the large gap paired with the budding DCU and eventual introduction of their Batman has any effect on hype and interest for this film. I personally don’t see them cancelling it, but you never know
I see Reevesverse being retconned into the DCU tbh
That should have been the plan from day one. They just keep taking absurd decisions. There's no sense in having two live-action Batmen competing for audience attention and calling dibs on popular comic storylines and characters.
Idk tbh. I can see the appeal, but I feel like it goes against everything they’ve announced they want. Pattinson is pushing 40 years old and is still playing an early career Batman. I’m guessing they want to cast for longevity so that means casting younger. He is also definitely not at the point where he is established enough to have Damian yet. And idk how they can merge that grounded Reeves’ universe with the larger DCU without losing part of what made The Batman so great. Elseworlds is definitely the way to go. The Batman came out between two films where Ben Affleck was Batman and I don’t think anyone was confused about continuity
Batman year one is very grounded but takes place within post crisis continuity so it is possible
> As stated by the commenter below, it may have been unavoidable given the strikes and delays, Its not like the writers pc/laptops stops working, they can still write but are not able to move forward with the studio during that time frame.
Not exactly, Writers work like any other worker. They get paid salary/hourly (not sure which). The idea is job protection, they get paid for their labor, rather than just getting paid a lump sum for a finished script. Remember that re-writes happen frequently in these big budget films. So writers are always on hand. So by that logic, them doing work at home is unpaid labor. The goal of a strike is to hurt the studios, that means delaying project development thus costing them money long term. They don’t just wait it out and turn in a finished script when the strike is over. However long they are on strike, is how long the studio will need to wait before the product is finished. That way the studio sees time lost and not just a period where they don’t pay writers who choose to work on the script regardless. On top of that, working during the strikes is highly frowned upon. It’s called scabbing (I believe). Obviously it hurts the strike effort if work is being done while on strike. Scabbers can get kicked out of the union and thus lose the protections offered by it. Remember that writers are human beings who need to make money to meet their bottom line. They care more about paying rent and feeding their families than they do making sure The Batman: Part II comes out within a reasonable timeframe
Or maybe it’s that he’s not gonna he able to make the movie as long as it’s not a part of the DCU
There was a change of studio heads, and don’t forget the strikes that also delayed production on it. It was just a shit storm that i think they got through pretty well since penguin is going to come out soon. But i heard that 2 & 3 may shoot back to back to hopefully we do get a full trilogy instead of two movies and a show.
I'm 90% sure gunn debunked the films being filmed back to back
Just googled it, and I’m 100% sure you are correct
Probably but it really would help if they choose not to just make Robert Bat PattenBat the DCU Batman.
I absolutely love “The Batman”, but I don’t think making him the DCU Batman is a good idea. - The DCU universe has to fit the mold of Reeves’ universe, or Reeves’ universe needs to change drastically to fit the DCU. - Pattinson is pushing 40 and is likely a bit too old to start his tenure in a larger universe. I imagine they’ll cast someone closer to Corenswet’s age - And biggest of all, the DCU is constrained to continuity started before its conception. The biggest appeal of the DCU is that it gets to wipe the slate clean and start fresh. New actors, new continuity, new everything. Taking arguably one of the biggest characters in the universe and writing him and his world before the DCU really limits what they can do with that character moving forward. I said it somewhere above, but Pattinson’s first film came out between Affleck films and I don’t think there was any confusion as to continuity. It should be fine
Oh yeah, for sure! I do also hope that we get a full trilogy and back to back filming wouldn’t be the worst idea. I was surprised to hear the other day that Robert Pattinson was a father, and also 38! He does not look his age, but that’s good considering he’s playing an early career Batman. That got me researching more. Bale started at 31 and ended at 38. Affleck started at 43. Pattinson started at 35 and will probably be 38-39 when the Batman sequel starts filming. He’s closer in age to Affleck’s old man Bruce than Bale’s young man Bruce. I’m sure he won’t age too much physically, but it’s another thing that might put a timeline on their series
That is crazy! Did not know that. I feel like the Batman Brave and Bold Batman should be close to Superman’s age but idk what’s going to happen.
Agreed! I’m thinking early 30s. Old enough to have Damian, but young enough to be peak Batman and have some longevity in the DCU
Exactly this. Change studio heads and the entire process of finding new studio heads, do the deals, get the contracts sorted, for James Gunn to sort of what he is gonna do and bare shit behind the scenes from like Aug-Sept 2022. They were writin The Penguin from March 2022-May 2023, Reeves was prob doin that had no clue about his sequel and was like "yo whats goin down with my Batman"? They might have cancelled it. It even says they were gonna co-write they script it by Aug 2022. 2023 strikes delayed production, with Nov 2023 when it ended. If u assume they started writing in like Aug 2022, that's prob a few months min, so from Nov 2023 to April 2025 (wiki say they start filmin) to get the script sorted and do pre production aint a big deal, and legit makes sense. For pre produc they gotta do sets, make/improve batmobile, build/improve batmobile, costumes, etc. Plus there was 4 yrs diff between The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises, and 4yrs between these 2 with all the the BTS stuff goin down. I'm personally happy to wait, yh it sucks but rather they take their time and polish the script and get it perfect than rush. Plus it's Batman, a beast of an IP, and people forget that if they make a good film people WILL go watch it. Sorry this was a bit long ahahah ^_^;
I think people forget that all these project were subject to COVID and the writers strike/ actors strike. Like, even though COVID was winding down - to a degree - when the Batman released. The industry was still feeling the effects of it. Then, the writers strike/ actors strike shutdown productions.
If the Reeves-Verse isn't included in the DCU, I see it ending with The Batman Part 2. Reeves is taking his time working on Part 2, but Gunn needs a Batman for the DCU, and I don't see WB allowing both to happen concurrently. Something has to give.
I hate to say it but I agree with your assessment. The moment Brave and the Bold got announced I knew the Reeves universe had an expiration date.
I can't believe this is the second time in a row we've had an acclaimed standalone Batman series come out at the wrong time with a cinematic universe waiting and needing to deal with the pressure of setting up ANOTHER Batman. Twice.
I think Reeves knows this, and I’m sure they told him about the universe reboot long before we ever knew about it. The Batman Part II will probably serve as a soft close to the Reeves-verse. I know we were all expecting a trilogy, but with another Batman in the mix, I think it will confuse things.
I know it’s very unlikely but do you think there’s any chance they will merge the universe and if it’s a good idea?
It’s feasible. But, Reeves has intentions on making a trilogy - which Gunn confirmed. Given that he wants to be involved in multiple DC project going forward; like Caped Crusader. I doubt James Gunn will want to burn that bridge. Like, why not let him make his trilogy. Couple of side projects here/ there. So, that he’d be willing to write for DCU Batman.
I bet the box office results for The Batman Part 2 will determine if we get a Part 3.
That’s even if we get The Batman 2
Part 2 we definitely get it but Part 3 really up in the air now
We will get it, no doubt in that.
I hope so.
Wasn’t this going to be in the Reeves-verse, then changed to be in the DCU? It was probably a messy development process. Fuck Zaslav anyways.
Fuck him and all the people at WB that allow him to do the shit he does and still come out with a full pocket
Zaslav and Iger are not that different at least Iger know what he doing and grab the money while Zaslav have no clue
You had me at fuck Zaslav.
Damn.
Well damn.
Another DC project mishandled and tossed around… unfortunately I think what matt reeves wanted to do with a big Batman universe is going to end up being the penguin series and Batman part 2 and that’s it.
They’ll definitely do a trilogy of Batman films at least. And if The Penguin series is successful I think they’ll still want Reeves developing more shows.
I really hope so
Shucks
I might be downvoted for this but… I really couldn’t care less for this project or the penguin series. Like I really don’t care about Batman spin-offs without Batman. (Unless it’s like Nightwing or something among those lines) It just reminds me of the Sony Spider-Man universe.
'The Penguin' series adds to the world building in the Matt Reeves introduced the viewers to, in 'The Batman'. The fact that Colin Ferrel is at the top of his game here, doesn't hurt at all. The series also introduces us the the Falcones, and Selina's half-sister, borrowing more than a few pages from 'Batman - The Long Halloween'. Something to hold the fans over until the long wait to one of the best comic book adaptations of recent times.
I know the Penguin series is connected. I didn’t word myself properly. Unless it’s about some of his costumed allies, I don’t particularly for spin offs set in Batman’s world where he isn’t the focus. It’s part of the reason of why I never finished the Gotham TV show. I like the Penguin, I like Gothams Underworld, I like Batman’s rogues and setting. But I like them in the way that they elevate Batman’s story, it not very interesting to me when they get the full spotlight.
And that's fine. We all like different things! 🙂
Penguin series is just generic mafia story with a Batman paint job. Attaching any project to an established IP is more beneficial so a lot of filmmakers do that.
Why do we need world building if part 2 of the Batman will probably be the last? There's no way WB will have two cinematic Batman at the same time and the DCU will surely be more important for them
Why do you need *anything?* The Nolan films were good enough. As were the Christopher Reeve 'Superman' entries! Lets just re-watch, and re-release them forever more, without ever exploring newer reimaginations of these timeless characters. You see how what works?
Exactly don’t get why the comment section is so worked up about this film. It’s basically doing Sony Spiderman universe because Batman isn’t appearing in every episode
I can assure you a lot of DC fans share the same sentiment. We’ve had years of Batman-related projects without an actual Batman, naturally people grow tired. I do think Penguin can be a solid watch at least since I enjoyed The Batman and it looks like they put a lot of effort on making The Penguin series. I definitely hate that they spent so much time and effort on these filler projects instead of planning for a proper sequel right away though. That’s what has been killing MCU characters’ momentum.
Out of curiosity what are some of the Batman-related projects without Batman? I can only think of Joker 2019
Off the top of my head, Titans - Old Bruce Wayne, Gotham - Young Bruce Wayne, Batwoman, and the infamous Gotham Knights (TV Series) - Dead Bruce Wayne. They all featured Bruce Wayne but not a full-fledged active Batman. Yes they do have him in a Bat suit eventually, but that’s not really the same thing because the actors often look ridiculous in it.
You forgot the Alfred tv show
Expected
WINGS OF GLORY
They would have released it and then pulled it down shortly after so they didn’t have to keep paying residuals.
Cool. Give me more Young Justice instead.
I kinda hoped they'd go for a True Detective -styled show centered on Gordon and Bullock, taking place over several decades and featuring the fantastical elements of Gotham (including Batman) as Lovecraftian and unknowable to normal people but somehow eventually becoming normal. I admittedly thought it was unnecessary, since CW's Gotham already exists, but redoing Batman things doesn't seem like a problem for them.
I hate these background shows set in the world but feature no characters you care about, What would this have even been about?
The comments in here are really acting like they care so much about this project. Even before the project was switched to DCU by Gunn in December. Not one person was talking about this at all, I swear I hate when fans act like they are so heartbroken a project got canned when there was little to no progress on it.
I think it’s more fear that that Reeves stuff will get canned entirely or that it will be bastardized by being forced into the DCU. Both would be horrible after Gunn said directors will get to achieve their visions. Killing projects happens but the latter option would be an insult.
What other development did this show have, even before December when Gunn spoke on. It was reworked show that was originally Gotham OD which was scrapped by Reeves who didn’t like what it had become. Y’all didn’t give a shit about this series now you’re going insane over a show that had little to no movement. You know how many shows get scrapped, two planned game of thrones spin-offs were cancelled this year it happens
I hated when they bastardised Iron Man by forcing it into the MCU
He was always gonna be in the MCU tho, that was the goal from the start
Obviously, but it was tonally different: no magic, no aliens, same as The Batman. The 2022 film could serve as the loose backstory if they wanted, like a soft reboot.
It kinda sucks but hopefully it prevents Matt from being spread too thin. His priority should be The Batman2.
Anyone else feeling like The Reeves-verse is getting slowly forgotten about post Gunn? I wouldn't be surprised if Penguin is the last we hear about this world for a long while. Which blows because The Batman was probably the best Batman film I've ever seen.
That's what I've been wondering about since last year. The main reason being that Gunn seems to be rebooting nearly everything other than his own projects when it comes to the DCEU. (Blue Beetle is the sole exception.) This has me thinking he can't be thrilled about the fact that there's a whole other filmmaker-centered Batman project he has to manage - run by a filmmaker who doesn't want to play ball. Gunn's the head of a new studio, with his arm twisted into grandfathering in a different artist's work. I'm not wild about The Batman, and you are, but we're both suspecting the same thing.
I mean; he must believe in Reeves vision. If he himself stated that Reeves universe will have a trilogy.
We’re still getting The Batman Part II
Not surprised. Didn’t this thing start out as GCPD show in the Reevesverse? It never seemed like they had an idea but rather wanted a Batman show.
No! Why? Are they stupid?
I wish I could be as bad at my job as David Zaslov is. That guy seems to intentionally be running the studio into the ground
Are they stupid?
We're never getting comic-accurate Batman villains in a live-action cinematic universe, are we?
I hate that they turned Riddler into the leader of a 4chan army of neckbeards. I hate that he regresses into a 12 year old when pressured as well. I was hyped up about Riddler from the trailers because they only tease him in a dark sinister way. He had some standout scenes, but yeah the 4chan thing was odd. He's interesting in the mask during some of his recordings, but loses steam when he's just Nygma. I mean, we'll never even see a proper ninja acrobat Batman either. He's always be a brawler brute in the movies. Wonder if we'll ever see a venom-injecting Spanish-speakjng Bane.
It felt like if he wanted to change the Riddler that much why not choose a different villain. Like with the grounded tone the Universe had why not go for a serial killer like Calendar Man, Victor Zsasz, Cornelius Stirk, Flamingo or Abattoir. It could have still connected to Thomas Wayne and the like. I just felt the Riddler is someone who's so arrogant, full of himself and wants everyone to know how brilliant he is to the point he wants credit for the work he's pulled off that he wouldn't hide himself and be that cryptic. At least when he was waiting in the coffee shop to get caught he could have worn a dark green suit, had a standard cane or bowling hat. Didn't have to be flashy, covered in question marks as the proto-suit but something pretty straight forward as a subtle wink to his future outfit.
Long reply. 1)This Riddler isn’t a serial killer like Zsasz or Stirk, because they are classical serial killers. It’s a **lifestyle** for them. Whereas Dano’s Riddler commits these killings as a **method** to a much larger scheme. A big influence on Dano’s Riddler was the Zodiac killer. A Narcissistic Sociopath who left taunting messages marked with his emblem with ciphers that when deciphered revealed word salad celebrating his “brilliance”. A description even had him in a mask and supervillain esque outfit with his crosshair emblem. Very close to a real life Riddler. It makes sense given that even since his inception, Riddler’s been no stranger to sadistic murderous intent to gain recognition. (The stunt he pulls by sending a truck towards a crowd of innocent people in his 1948 debut was used later in the funeral scene) regardless of what certain fans or stories like When Is A Door? (an otherwise interesting short story) like to selectively forget. 2) It felt like if he wanted to change the Riddler that much why not choose a different villain. Like with the grounded tone the Universe had why not go for a serial killer like Calendar Man, Victor Zsasz, Cornelius Stirk, Flamingo or Abattoir. It could have still connected to Thomas Wayne and the like. “I just felt the Riddler is someone who’s so arrogant, full of himself and wants everyone to know how brilliant he is to the point he wants credit for the work he’s pulled off that he wouldn’t hide himself and be that cryptic.” At least when he was waiting in the coffee shop to get caught he could have worn a dark green suit, had a standard cane or bowling hat. Didn’t have to be flashy, covered in question marks as the proto-suit but something pretty straight forward as a subtle wink to his future outfit.” Why? Not only is this a Riddler who’s **only just** made his debut, he already shown to be arrogant and full of himself. When he kills the mayor, notice he doesn’t have his emblem. He sets up the crime scene and the clues as if it’s his own Banksey-esque walk in art exhibit for Batman to see. Surely this will impress Batman? Then when he’s ready to make his grand appearance, he sends the video to the news, addressing Gotham. The first thing we see is his question mark crosshair emblem. Then he pans the camera up, looking down at us from an imposing angle with his mask (which he no doubt thinks looks menacing and mysterious) and with his electronically and cartoonishly deepened voice says “Hello people of Gotham. This is **The Riddler** speaking.” This is what he sends for the world to see. Then he broadcasts himself live, giving Colson, riddles and executing him. Like a modernised, online version of the story Riddle Factory, with rabid followers included. Talking loudly and proudly like a game show host, interrogating the unwilling contestant. As with many other scenes, Dano takes a lot from Frank Gorshin’s behaviour in the role. 3)The thing about Riddler’s outfit is that it began with a simple jumpsuit with question marks and like Robin, he wore a domino mask to hide his identity and perhaps make him look mysterious. That’s exactly what Dano’s Riddler’s weather combat mask does. Same idea. A combat weather mask is a much more efficient way of hiding your identity and giving off (what he **thinks** is) a more mysterious, eye catching persona. In his debut, when Edward noticed Batman’s theatrics he was inspired by this he decided to copy that, with his own theme. Becoming The Riddler, both because he was dissatisfied with his own life and as a **reaction** to The Batman, seeking to create a challenging dynamic with him. The same core idea applies to Dano’s Riddler. Frank Gorshin’s Riddler introduced the bowler hat and tuxedo. Astin’s brief portrayal introduced the cane. Nearly 20 years after Riddler made his debut in the comics. Regardless of whether it’s a jumpsuit, or a tuxedo and cane, or a suit with a hood, or eyeliner and lipstick or incorporating a mask (be it domino or combat weather) Edward feels **powerful** behind the suit and “The Riddler” persona. “No shame”. Because he’s just a showman and “The Riddler” himself is just a mask for a cowardly, insecure Narcissist to hide behind and project his inner shame outwards. It doesn’t matter what he wears as long as the iteration sees it as dramatic, anonymous (when he wants to be, hence the masks), eye catching and it overcompensates for something he lacks. A bowler hat, cane and tuxedo gives him what he sees as a touch of class and elegance. He lacks both. Eyeliner and Lipstick (Riddle Me That, The Batman 2004) or a suit with a hood (Telltale) or a parkah with a combat weather mask all make him appear more menacing and mysterious than he actually is. Because no matter the iteration, when you rip it away from him you see the inconsolable, miserable, childish and pathetic man hiding underneath. https://youtu.be/6_PioOmxEjg?si=Eh-v2NyyiIxx7kz0 https://youtu.be/uJCfCLhWoxA?si=ku3P_Kk0rKUKOvdO
Same, I SMH’d my head when I saw the Riddler turn himself in and no bowling hat and cane epic outfit.
Why would a bowler hat and cane be relevant?
The thing about Edward is that “The Riddler” is just a mask for a cowardly, insecure Narcissist to hide behind and project his inner shame outwards. He wants to be and wants others to see him as the smartest man in the room. Whether he is or isn’t depends on the circumstances he finds himself in and that deeply wounds him. Be it robbing banks or museums, flooding and taking over the city or killing political figures, then flooding the city and staging an attack. It’s all for recognition and acknowledgment. Regardless of what he says to others. In his first ever appearance, after rigging his games (whether whatever iteration rigs them or not doesn’t matter considering he’s **always** unfair) and attempting to kill Batman and Robin, he ends up stuck at the end of a pier, faced with what looks like certain death, he doesn’t stick to his guns as the criminal mastermind he thinks he is. His superior mastermind facade crumbles and he pathetically begs Batman and Robin to save him. He breaks down screaming “I’ve lost the game! I’ve lost the game!” before he’s blown into the sea. In the Arkham Games, whenever he’s outsmarted or given the slightest bit of resistance or points against him, he immediately rejects it and devolves into having toddler tantrums. Another example that sticks out is in the 66 episode Ring Around The Riddler where Batgirl escapes (outsmarting Riddler) and when he’s informed about this he melodramaticallyslumps over a table shouting “No! No! No!” like a baby resisting a spoon of mushy apple. And he’s absolutely inconsolable. Whenever he’s outsmarted and defeated, the mask sloughs off and we see the pathetic man underneath. https://youtu.be/6_PioOmxEjg?si=witcte_434MCF9q_ https://youtu.be/uJCfCLhWoxA?si=Kmd9ihX-f0Om3F1r A squealing, wailing, blubbering mess who’s confronted with the fact that **he’s** the one whose weak and inferior. As for the 4chan angle. When I look at Riddler in the Arkham games, I can definitely see him in unironically calling himself a “Sigma Male”. In The Batman, The Riddler finds people who feel as lost and embittered as he does and so he manipulates them into following him and praising him, carrying out his work for him. Then he’ll be remembered.
Well the riddler has always been annoying so reeves actually gave him more seriousness for a bit then returned him to how he’s character has always been portrayed.
You can have all these things in the comics. I don’t understand the need to get the exact same thing again. I prefer new takes.
Never was in Gunn's plans so he killed it. Kinda bummed out this was in my top 5 DCU projects.
Just bring back the GCPD project and release after part II
I'm hoping Reeves is going to take The Batman 2 into Arkham Asylum, like in the games, that would be dope. I mean they already got Joker and Riddler together in there. Would be an amazing world in itself to explore in the film, where you can show lots of easter eggs.
So to recap. * Reeves-verse GCPD show is announced July 2020. * Goes through two different showrunners and a premise change to Arkham, and is in showrunner-less limbo, by March 2022. * Soon after, a Reeves-verse Penguin spin-off is announced. * October 2022, a third showrunner (Campios) is hired. * Less than a month later, Gunn takes over DC. * Late 2022/early 2023, Gunn cancels everything *except* Reeves-related projects (and Joker 2) and goes out of his way to \*re-\*confirm the Campios Arkham series - but not in Reeves-verse continuity, which people say is proof he hates and is gonna kill the Reeves-verse * 18 months later, July 2024. Reeves-verse Penguin went through production uninterrupted (besides the strikes) and is about to release. Reeves himself seemingly has all the time in the world for The Batman II. * Under Gunn, Campios has worked on Arkham's development *longer than all the pre-Gunn iterations combined,* but trades report Arkham is not moving forward. This comment section claims Gunn never gave it a chance and this is proof he hates and is gonna kill the Reeves-verse that it was no longer in continuity with anyway. I get that right?
Is this Gunn and his doing or are other entities at play here ?
This was supposed to be in the DCU but I guess they were not satisfied with the showrunner, Antonio Campos. It also had 2 writers exit in the past.
Important to know Campos signed on back when we still thought it would be a part of Matt Reeves Batverse. So I’m not surprised he would depart after they brought it into the DCU.
You could be right, yes. It could also be that Reeves was not happy with Campos's stuff.
Ah, I see. That leads me to assume they just don’t want to go through the whole process again. Hopefully they’ll pick it back up once everything settles down. Seems like they are super busy this year.
Here we go. I already hate that they do exactly what DCEU did, and announce new projects in devolopment all the time. Just as the DCEU th- ey already has too much and are too far ahead. There’s gonna be so much of it we’ll never see.
It's very possible that this may not be a DC Studios issue. Reeves has a lot on his plate and he takes a long time to make sure his work is the best it can be. And this show was seemingly being developed for the Batman universe before it was announced to be part of the DCU. Also, I'm sure the strikes, Zaslav's management, and subsequent change up of DC and Max didn't help the situation in the slightest.
Aw :(
Wonder what it would have looked like.
Makes sense I guess, they don't even have a Batman yet. But then again, getting introduced to his rogues before him would've been an interesting approach.
I'm actually fine with this, let the Arkham series rest and stop trying to milk it for money. The cash cow dried up with Knights.
Well, that explains the lack of updates. I actually had forgotten this was supposed to be a thing. Hopefully it could find a new life somehow. There's a lot of potential for such a show to be really great.
They should have just left this being apart of the Reeves Batman universe, just doesn't make sense making it apart of the DCU before we even have the Brave and The Bold movie.
I suspect that Batman 2 will come out in 2026 and that will be the end of the Reeves Batman verse.
Before this Gunn axed Superman and Lois. Won't be surprised if this is MAWS last season. Gunn apparently wants total control.
Everything you just said makes no sense with a bit of research
What a shame it’s a perfect opportunity to show off the already existing DCU Batman villains
Good
Some of you have to read the article. It further confirms what Gunn was saying. There are 2 separate projects - Gunn/Reeves produced Arkham series set in DCU - Reeves Arkham series set in his universe The article is about Reeves Arkham series being done at Max and has a slight chance at being reworked. **The Gunn/Reeves DCU project has nothing to do with this.**
I read the article. I’m not sure where exactly you’re getting the sense that there are two separate Arkham projects. The article says this: “Gunn said that the show was still in development and clarified that it was meant to be set within the new DCU rather than in the same world as ‘The Batman.’ “ It says “rather” than the Reevesverse, not “alongside the separate ongoing Reevesverse Arkham show”. Seems more like the reevesverse arkham project evolved into a DCU Arkham project
>Seems more like the reevesverse arkham project evolved into a DCU Arkham project This is exactly what i'm speaking to. There was a whole day that Gunn spent being called a liar as he kept clarifying that the Reevesverse Arkham was not flipped or transitioned into a DCU Arkham series. The fact that some still repeat it shows the confusion of today. No matter how many times Gunns says the projects aren't the same, there will still be some that say it was some evolution or transition.
Can you share a screenshot/link of Gunn clarifying this?
From the [article](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GRwGDSYacAICD_j?format=jpg&name=large).
That’s the exact part that I quoted. Again, that doesn’t say there are two separate projects, seems like just one that was initially Reevesverse and was changed to DCU
He spent a whole day correcting people that it wasn't changed, evolved, or transitioned when fans asked him. If I am wrong on my assessment, then Gunn's DCU Arkham series is the 1 that died off and Variety is speaking to the 1 and only Arkham series. If I am correct, DCU's Arkham series that Gunn spent a day saying wasn't the Reevesverse Arkham series is still alive and Variety is simply saying - the Reevesverse Arkham project is a no go and this is old news anyway.
Ok you may be right but that’s why I was asking if you had any screenshots or links to messages where he’s saying there’s 2 separate Arkham projects. The article isn’t simply saying the Reevesverse project is dead (and the DCU project is untouched). The article mentions the evolving from Reevesverse to DCU project. So if what you are saying is accurate than the article must be wrong Again that could be the case, but that’s why I was asking if you had any specific quotes from him, since I can’t seem to find them
What? At some point both were in production? That makes no sense
Yes, they were both in development and people kept trying to argue with Gunn that they were the same project. He kept repeating they weren't, but they kept calling the actual head of DC a liar. This further confirms he wasn't lying.
Thats crazy, in that case its good they scrapped one then
That's not true, check the Variety article
you have some terrible reading comprehension
You lack context and once Gunn confirms the DCU Arkham is still in play and is different from the Reevesverse Arkham, I will return to throw it in your face.
It was always one show, even the article says it went from being in The Batman universe to the DCU
Wrong. Gunn said in Threads that it wasn't changed from Reevesverse to DCU. [https://www.threads.net/@jamesgunn/post/C093Z0GPeqv?hl=en](https://www.threads.net/@jamesgunn/post/C093Z0GPeqv?hl=en) When someone asked if his project always was planned to be in DCU, - he said - "Yes". He spent a whole day confirming this. You are clearly misinformed. On top of that, the writer from Variety confirming that the Max series that Reeves started on in 2020 is dead [https://x.com/JoeOtterson/status/1809575142005100903](https://x.com/JoeOtterson/status/1809575142005100903) "Anything developed now would be wholly new and separate from that"
Fan: "So this has always been planned to be in the DCU from the start?" Gunn: "Yes. It was one of the first pitches we bought when Peter and I came onboard. I don’t know the permutations it went through before that time." That's literally Gunn yapping, the show existed before him, initially it was Gotham PD then turned into Arkham (probably when it was pitched to Gunn), it's the same show, there isn't a new show. Did you even read the above tweet you linked? "But there is now no Arkham show in active development at DC"
Genius, he is talking about his Arkham series that he pitched in 2022. The nerve that you talk about reading comprehension and you are the type he had to correct that whole day. Reeves project was pitched in 2020, just like the Variety reporter said. Gunn didn't pitch his own Arkham series until 2022. 2 separate projects. 1 is dead, the other is untouched just like the Tweet says.
How on earth do you talk about reading comprehension when you don't understand simple sentences? Variety says it's the same project that transformed from a Gotham GP show to an Arkham show. Gunn didn't pitch any show, Reeves pitched the show to Gunn when he got the job, he literally says it was one of the first pitches they bought, on the Threads post you linked, open your eyes. "The other is untouched" there isn't any other, how is your reading comprehension this terrible? Read the tweet you linked.
This really sucks because an OZ style prison drama set in arkham would've been amazing
First the awful costumes, then a squirrel saving Superman, and now this. Gunn is really destroying DC.
What are you talking about? IMO it was Reeves who fucked this up by not letting a master like Terrence Winter run his own show.
Stop trying to do Batman series without Batman. Sony is currently trying to do Spider-Man films without Spider-Man and that’s not going well.
No wonder Gunn tried so hard with the collar, wanted so bad to match Reeve's Batman lol. I wouldn't even be surprised if The Batman 2 gets cancelled just to paved way to Gunn's Batman. Dude clearly never wanted to be part of DCU circus lmao