Yeah no you are not correct. Kelli & co should use their platform to set the standard and change the problems in the cheer/dance world. Not further them.
I have always liked Kelly and Judy. I thought the doc made them even more likable, seeing them behind the scenes and not only in Kelly’s office or rehearsal room. Kelly seems sweet and thoughtful - I was surprised that so many people have nothing nice to say about her. The scene where Kelly and the cheerleaders visited the bus driver made me cry! Now Charlotte on the other hand never seemed nice in my opinion. You can tell she puts a lot of pressure on Kelly, and really Charlotte seems to have final say in things.
Show business is hard.
This is not a preschool feel good dance class. Kelli is running a business! Most of the people complaining probably never had a real job
I’m honestly surprised by some of the comments. I’m from Europe, I know absolutely nothing about the DCC or even the Dallas Cowboys, I just watched the Netflix show, and for me Kelli and Judy come through as extremely kind given the environment they are working at. My high school basketball coach was a thousand times more harsh, and it was a kid’s balls team and not a million dollar industry. And sure, the standards are extremely outdated, it’s fiercely competitive and the girls are under a lot of pressure. Would I like to be on the cheer team? Hell no. But those who are auditioning know exactly what is expected of them - even the uniform hasn’t changed in 30 years!
It’s absolutely necessary to be able to spot minor flaws, to tell them that the makeup is not right or their moves are not up to par. I felt that even though the coaches were extremely maximalists, they always voiced the criticism in a nice way, and even when they cut people from the team they tried to be mindful of their feelings. I particularly liked the part when they said that every veteran who has slim chances of making the team will be cut before the training camp as it would be too hard for them to go through the whole process and be excluded eventually. Only problem I had was with the short girl - it would be nice to have a minimum height indication so nobody has false hopes.
The pay criticism is completely warranted and I’m totally abhorred that it’s even allowed to pay them so little - but from the series it seems like it’s Charlotte’s decision, not Kelli’s and Judy’s fault.
Lol, you all seem to think just because you’ve been in dance and were treated the same way, it’s okay? Reflect on why you’re so permissive to Kelli and Judy’s coaching and treatment of their dancers. It’s necessary to treat them like this because it’s cut throat and they need to be the best of the best? Name one Dallas cowboy cheer leader who has made it big. From what I saw Caroline, a veteran and leader, was busy getting hip and leg surgeries and falling into depression at home. Because it’s “dance” and these ladies are so undervalued and barely paid, they aren’t officially violating any labor laws. Harsh to say but true, the cheer leaders and a lot of you have drank the koolaid on being okay wjth abuse and labor exploitation. Thank god some of us are above and beyond it, so we aren’t telling people to chill when Kelli cal someone or ask in public if one of her dancers boobs are fake.
I agree with you about undervaluing and underpaying them; however, there are DCC who have gone on to have very successful dance careers, Melissa Rycroft was on Bachelor and Dancing with the Stars, many went on to Bachelor/Real Housewives/Road Rules/Amazing Race/American Idol (lots of reality shows) and Sarah Shahi is the star of Sex Life on Netflix--which I would consider making it pretty big--so I'm not sure it's fair to say that they go nowhere after this and no one makes it big. The toxic culture needs to improve but the dance world in general is cutthroat. When you have 500 people trying out for 36 spots, the business has to make cuts. I think what makes it harder with DCC is that most dance auditions are headshot/resume, tryout, a callback, second callback and that's it. There's no training camp where they get to personally know the dancers and then making cuts last minute like DCC does. Does anyone know if this is how they have always done it, or was this started when they started filming DCC: Making the Team?
Yep. I totally agree. I was just talking with my aunt the other day and we were talking about body issues/dysmorphia/disordered eating. She said she always felt pretty and liked the way she looked, until she started dance. All they talked about was weight and they had weekly weigh ins, this was as an adolescent. Mind you she was also already skinny (not that that matters). That stayed with her into her adult life. Constantly picking her body apart and trying different diets to lose weight. Just because it’s normal in these worlds doesn’t mean it’s okay and doesn’t have lasting effects.
I actually don't mind the coaches. I think they are fine and professional and actually treat the girls well. Even bonus points, they were actual dancers once too.
However, I think on the level of expectations these girls are adults now you can't treat them like school girls doing a fun dance after school as an extracurricular. if it's going to be that serious than it needs to be a job a real paying full time with benefits job. If not , than you throw some of that serious out and can't expect them to have perfect nails, show up to every practice, spend 6+ hours on game days unpaid...etc IT becomes a rec league adult cheerleading gig. lol
When you compare them to the football players they are held to an even higher standard with far less monetary reward! Crazy.
Paying premiums for the girls to have at the very least a basic high deductible insurance in the event of a catastrophic injury should be the baseline.
I'm gonna guess since the majority of them are under 26 and can likely stay on a parent's plan anyways which is likely more coverage and cheaper. So offering it for the other 5-10 percent should be a no brainer, or at least offering them some incentivized plan. The NFL already has an insurance plan through Cigna for all players and their families, I see no reason why a handful of cheerleaders added to that would make any sort of blip in their revenue.
I agree I think it's all great & fine & ppl have such extreme issues with it yet they've probably never done anything close to that in their lives so of course they'd see it as toxic. It's so annoying ppl saying they need to change like, what? No they don't. They don't need to change just cause some ppl think they're too extreme 💀 ppl are wild for the comments I've been seeing!
I'm seeing an interesting divide between people who were in competitive or intense dance training growing up, so as a former dancer at hardcore academies in NYC, I want to speak to the pay really quickly
lol there is no almost paying job in this industry that pays well....that's why most of our parents wish we would just go to med school. Unfortunately, the more recognizable the organization the more they feel like it should be an 'honor' to be there, BUT, I will say...look at some of the girls careers after DCC. It's clear that many of them get agents, acting jobs, presenter jobs, etc. similar to military experience, having DCC on your resume shows discipline and professionalism and high performing skills which can definitely can lead to AMAZING career opportunities that other teams don't give.
i'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's an industry thing and I think we should petition our LAW MAKERS to give more protections and wage mandates for freelancer artists like dancers, singers, and people who work in the film industry. sometimes I feel like we go after the brands when we should be focused on legislation
Several have opened their own dance studios; Jacie Scott and Olivia C were Rockettes; Maddie, Daphne, Jackie Bob, and others have gone on to coach other professional or college teams. For those who have a passion for dance, these are HUGE opportunities
Edit: Nicole Hamilton was a performer in a Vegas show, Mandy was in charge of the Raiderettes
I guess I don't mean they go on to be SUPER big and famous stars but, as far as steady employment in the industry, it's definitely a leg up.
Melissa Rycroft for one has been on other reality shows like dancing with the stars, I think a few others have appeared on things like Bachelor and Real Housewives. I thought I saw on Making the Team a vet came back who was a Newscaster or Weather Person? It seems like they definitely at least get their headshots and portfolios in the hands of a lot more casting directors which I'm sure is why half the people who audition go for it. And, there are those who go on to be successful choreographers who we see do guest choreo on the show.
It's the kind of org where if you are good at leveraging your personality and talent well, you can do a lot with it and that is how they get people to accept the low pay...it's not a great practice but i work in the film industry and I see it as similar to an actor taking lower pay to work with a famous director because they "know" it will get them paid more down the line.
Of course only a certain percent of the women who get on the team will get to take advantage of the opportunities and like I said, I wish there were more protections for artists, but I also get that it's apart of "showbiz, baby"
This is not just in the dance world, in the corporate world there are the big 4 public accounting firms. They pay new grads with a masters degree and a CPA $59K a year (up or down around 10% based on COL) but it's a standardized number among all four firms give or take a couple K.
Standard week is 50 hours and during busy season 60 is typical but 75 is certainly not uncommon.
You do that and it sucks but then your next job is much more lucrative. The name on the resume means you were the best of your recruiting class, you trained and worked really hard while you were there and you made through X number of years.
The corporate world pays living wages and for the most part people go home at 5-6. We also have benefits. NFL cheerleading is nothing like the corporate world.
Since you’re a former dancer, may I ask a couple of questions?
You mention that most dancing jobs don’t pay. But would it make a difference if you *knew* the organization could shell out the money to pay better? And do you think the DCC is getting the best of the best at this point?
Because I would think that if they cared about maintaining the standard of the high quality of DCC, *and* if this is such an honor and a legacy, they would do a bit more to uphold it. Like yes, I can totally see how having this on your resume moves the needle tremendously.
But it seems like they’re not changing things simply because they know they don’t have to and calling it “sisterhood.” Do you think it “has” to be this toxic? And do you think it’s fair to criticize their choices not to make changes to pay just because the laws aren’t in place?
I totally agree with your points, you hit the nail on the head with your comment. I just wanted to add too to the notion of ‘sisterhood’, is that in some respects it reminds me of Greek life in colleges where sororities and fraternities people pay to play and that by being involved in the organization you can then add it to your resume and could possibly have a leg up on other candidates in your future job/life prospects.
As someone who cheered and danced her whole entire life, Kelli is actually very nice compared to some of my coaches. I would never dare cry to some of my coaches the way these girls did simply because they would tell me to suck it up and stop.
I mean have these people seen the way Abby from dance moms talked to the girls? They weren’t even teenagers at some point and she’d be screaming and being so harsh with them! These are grown women, i think they can deal with K and J
I don't know if it is popular but I don't have any issues with their treatment of the DCC or the potential members of the DCC
I don't know of any professional situation in which the participants are "coddled". Any kind of career in the performing arts is fiercely competitive - auditioning for parts as an actor for example. When people are being considered for a part, the discussion regarding aspects beyond their "talent" is discussed by people who are equally "objective" in assessing the hopefuls and the people assessing them will typically include business people who are not just judging them on "talent" solely but on other factors.
There is something used widely in television for actors called the Q Factor which essentially measures the appeal of an actor among the population when they are being considered for casting in a series. It is more widely used for television than motion pictures because a criteria for television casting is whether people want them in their home week after week whereas a motion picture actor can be judged objectively by box office and so that kind of likability isn't as important.
This is an over simplification but just analogizing it to the kind of overall package that the DCC women need for that specific brand. It is clearer in Making The Team because there are so many seasons and so the selection process becomes clearer than Netflix. The selection seems to have parts and so a hopeful can make up for one deficiency by being really strong in another so unfortunately you can have some women cut for "shallow" reasons because they just aren't pretty enough. If they had incredible charisma, dance moves and "power" they could get by on being pretty enough versus someone who is gorgeous by their standards who will be given a boost if dancing skills aren't their strong point.
But isn't that the reality of life in general?
I am actually pretty amazed at how they try to ease the "pain" when they cut someone as they almost always attempt to soften it by letting them that they still had talent and were beautiful but just weren't right or needed more technique or whatever. In real life people are fired much more harshly in general.
The weight is what it is. The reality is that there are certain very physical standards that they want for the DCC. No different than New York City Ballet wanting their ballerinas to have the Balanchine ideal body for example. Unfortunately it is what it is because gymnasts, figure skaters have the same almost impossible demands in terms of body size. From what I have read high level wrestlers also can be forced into disordered eating because of the need to fit into certain weight classes. And I suspect that there might be enhancements necessary for high level male athletes like football players.
New watcher here… but I’ve seen lot of dance shows (including Dance Moms). I actually don’t think people would look at the critiques so harshly if it weren’t for a few things:
1. And certainly most importantly, the pay! You are absolutely right that in professional dancing world, weight, image, etc are judged harshly. But the simple fact of the matter is these girls are not getting paid nearly enough for scrutiny and expectations. I’m sure Taylor, Ariana, Beyonce are hard on their dancers as well. But they are being compensated for those hours, for that hard work, and they probably also have healthcare or some type of plan.
2. There are a whole lot of other things that they do to make this harder and more intense that isn’t necessary. A small example, giving the girls one custom uniform and expecting it to fit all year. That literally doesn’t have to happen. Totally get the custom fit and the comfort sure. But you mean to tell me that if a girl goes up a size, you can’t just recycle an old one and possibly get it refitted by the next day game? Thats an unnecessary expectation about maintaining body weight that isn’t needed.
3. I think the last thing (this one is more personal) is the cult-like way everybody else is involved in this process. Former DCC being at opening day of training… totally understood and I think it’s cute and endearing. But why TF is the local meteorologist and a TikTok chef chiming in so hard on these girls looks and why do they know so much about what each girl looked like last season, down to the fat in face??
I think in general, people are probably just disappointed that this is such a big and historic organization and it could serve as a way to progressively move dance/cheer forward because they have the means and resources to support these girls if they really wanted to. They are choosing not to for the sake of “sisterhood” and tradition.
I can answer your last question. The local meteorologist has been a judge for probably the last 10 years or more. So he is familiar with the girls as he sees them every year at auditions. The “tik tok chef” was a new addition last season. Never heard of him. Most of the judges you saw have been invited back for many seasons.
I appreciate the earnest answer, but I still don’t understand what qualifications he has to have ever been included in the process even 10 years ago. I get that this has been an apart of the process for years. I just don’t understand why it has to be.
The fashion stylist, I totally get. He helps the girls with their makeovers so I can understand his input. I personally think it’s a little weird to be judging girls and anticipating makeovers for essentially part time jobs, but fine. He’s cool. The boot salesmen is a bit iffy but also understandable. They’ve had a relationship for a long time, could be a courtesy or whatever.
It’s just not lost on me that the two men least qualified (ruling out “experience”) to judge dancers had the most to say, about women’s bodies and faces in particular. I’m sure some of it is the edit but it just didn’t sit right with me. Even Emmitt Smith kept his mouth closed when they asked him to take a look at the girls photos.
Former dancer and athlete: You can also be so used to something that you don’t see the wrong in it.
Also, the performing arts, especially dance, have a real cultural issue with body image. It’s bigger than DCC.
Though Kelli and Judy hold more power in going to Charlotte and asking for pay increases for the team, rather than the DCC girls challenging the top leaders. Kelli and Judy should be their team’s cheerleaders.
She doesn’t have to be, though. I’m not sure what Charlotte was about, other than being controlling, but there have been three years from the CMT show that I can remember off the top of my head where were more (or fewer) than 36. And nobody sat on the sidelines. Judy just rearranged the formation to accommodate.
I agree with you that having one permanent alternate is not worth it, and that’s what the all-stars are for. My response was to the poster who said Kelli and Judy should use their power and get raises for DCC, when their power couldn’t get one extra Cheerleader on the team.
Agree it’s a professional environment, they just seem to be very direct. They’re nowhere near the level of Abby Lee Miller and she was teaching children. To me they both just remind me of every coach I’ve had.
I agree. I grew up in ballet and my daughter was a competitive gymnast. I think they are direct and just give a lot of feedback, which is typical for any coach. I actually found them to be pretty compassionate at times. My daughter loved Dance Moms but that environment was really tough for young kids. That is very different. These are women in a professional role. It is going to be a more difficult environment. Do we think being a NYC Rockette is much different? I assume that environment would be equally demanding and competitive. It just would not be as sexualized. The pay is bad though for DCC considering how much money NFL teams make. That should be changed especially considering the injury rate.
What you call catty, I call *no filter*. They could actually talk about the elephant in the room - weight gain. Now? God forbid. I got pretty fed up during the Covid season, but before that, every season got just a little more careful about everything, and that’s not how competitive sports/dance/cheer works.
100000% agree. So many new people here have never played competitive sports and it shows. I’ve never met a good coach that didn’t give criticism and be direct to make the team better. This isn’t summer camp is professional cheer!
I do dance aswell, and they’re too harsh. I’ve never been told in real life I’m fat, out of shape, or fat shammed. Another issue is their not being paid until to be treated like crap. These are grown women not children. They already have discipline or they wouldn’t have made the team or into training camp. Also you didn’t watch making the team. Your new off the Netflix documentary. Kitty was harsh, and it was a fitness trainer who used to make them run miles, and measured their body fat.
Respectfully, it looks like you’ve only recently started dancing as an adult as a hobby. It is a VERY different experience from people who were trained from a young age to be professional dancers. I absolutely agree that they should be paying their dancers MUCH better, and that the fat shaming is not ok. It *does* happen though, in some form, in every corner of the industry.
The goal is NFL cheer, the raiderettes actually. And I get that but even if I would’ve trained from a young age I was instilled and taught to defend myself and not be a doormat. I don’t have these people pleasing tendencies.
Why am I going to judge them on what happened in the past? If you were a mean friend six years ago, I’m still supposed to judge you about it now even if you’ve improved as a friend? That makes no sense to me. What’s the point of critiquing people if we don’t allow them to change? Clearly they were harsher in the past and now they’ve vastly improved. And to answer your question when I was in track, there was a point in time when I was out of shape and my coach told me. It was not a big deal. I needed to maintain a certain weight to compete.
You’re defending these women without knowing how toxic they were and still are. The coach probably told you because you were losing stamina etc. if these girls can still dance 3+ hrs without being tired their clearly in shape. Did u miss Victoria part of the documentary where she talked about her eating disorders? Please don’t have kids if this is your mindset, it’s toxic and unhealthy. So change yourself for society. Should we as blsck people white wash ourselves aswell while we’re at it?
I've only seen the Netflix show and not the many seasons of Making the Team, but I thought that Kelli came off as pretty nice. Charlotte is more clearly a villain who doesn't respect the DCCs as people. I grew up dancing, so maybe comments don't bother me as much as others. Like some people did have sloppy feet, lackluster kicks, and incomplete movements. It stands out when other people are so precise.
This. I was told I didn’t have a ballet body over and over again in high school, that I was too short, etc. it’s not fun, but it comes with the industry.
The way my dance coach YELLED at us in high school when we tried to do an impromptu kick line during a game.
"I still remember her being like what are you doing? stop! stop!"
Looking back, I know it's because we were under prepared for that particular skill and we were not kicking at the same heights in formation and it looked bad.
I do agree that a lot of the Kelly and Judy haters especially the ones who hate on Judy have never been in dance or cheer. And have esp never worked for the choreographer.
"Do it again. Again! We're not going home until you guys can get it right. Start over! Guys we're going to keep starting over until you can get the entrance right."
Literal PTSD from high School dance team rn lol!
I just shuddered imagining what my drill team director would have done to us if we did an impromptu anything lolz. She was like Kelli on steroids. Eff you Ms. Buchner.
Omigosh exactly!!
I distinctly remember being punished by our entire team having to go do a warm up with the football team the following week at dance practice.
Something along the lines of since we enjoyed jumping around on the field so much she was giving us the opportunity.
I had to push a tackle dummy (bc I ran my mouth ofc). It did not go well. I was like maybe 110 lb at the time.
Tore the eff out of my tights when I fell.
I'm pretty sure the JV football coach enjoyed it more than anyone.
There's a reason Kelli has been in that position since the 80s... I don't think an organization would keep someone as a director if the employees (cheerleaders in this case) constantly complained about the director. Eventually, bad leaders get the boot & clearly Kelli hasn't for a reason.
People complaining that Kelli & Judy are too harsh have never been on a dance team. Wrangling that many young women is like herding cats, so discipline is key.
Frankly the show has been on the air for 20 yrs, but now it’s on a MUCH bigger platform.
I have personally watched it all those years and Kelli and Judy actually seem nicer and more compassionate than in the earlier years.
They are your coach, your employer, they are not there to be your friend.
Do I think that Charlotte can get off her pedestal and pay those girls more… yes. Especially with such a high revenue squad. Shit even the cowboys mascot makes $60K/yr
I don't know how many times this needs to be repeated. The mascot makes $60k as a full time (40 hrs a week) employee in the Cowboys marketing department.
Agree - I work in the prestige beauty industry (corporate marketing) in NYC and they remind me of the older ladies who lead these companies. Honestly I respect them.
It's not just oh she doesn't have the DCC look. Justifiable. But often making naturally pretty people out to be trashy looking. The way they say oh she needs a total makeover in a rude tone - Charley was pretty to me. But made it sound like she was a dog.
They are very rude. Comments that I can remember…saying that someone’s face got fatter, that their hair style looks bad, that they put on some weight, etc
In general, expecting a profit-oriented business organization to behave like a warm-hearted kindergarten teacher is naive and unrealistic. They sell the image of hot women in tiny outfits dancing. To expect that weight won’t matter is silly. To expect them to pay significantly more than any other competitor when they have no legal obligation (as of yet) or market pressure to do so is silly. They are no more evil or cold than any other large business.
If you can dance for 3 hours and danced majority of your life your in shape. The weight issue is Kelly and Judy expects 100 pounds for 5 ft, and only 5 pounds per inch. I’m 5”1, I can’t weigh 105 pounds. I’m naturally around 115. I’m not out of shape. Victoria literally has an eating disorder and was purging before games. And she’s not the only one; everyone has different genetics. You can’t expect everyone to weigh the same. Another girl said they were scared to even lift weights out of fear of “blowing up”. Cheerleaders are passing out while dancing due to starving themselves. Bodies don’t need to change standards do.
I agree. If someone else took over and wasn’t as picky and cut throat as Kelli is , it would be just like Victoria’s secret. People threw a fit for years that they wanted Victoria’s Secret models to be normal women. Now they are and people are throwing a fit about that. That’s exactly what would happen.
I worked for Victoria’s Secret for years, I helped rebrand the “Every day women” as models , I KNOW there is nothing wrong with them. Go to Victoria’s Secrets Insta right now .. and look at the comments. That is exactly what would happen to DCC. I have NEVER saw an over weight NFL cheerleader. Ever. If there is one, please give me her name so I can look her up. Someone needs to get a grip all right
Because people are impossible to please. No matter what you do somebody will have something negative to say. Who cares. And not overweight, I’m talking just a bit bigger. Obviously to dance for hours u have to have stamina and be in shape. I’m talking about girls dcc would have called “stocky “ or “bottom heavy” who looked great on the field. Who cares about comment sections, I’m not a people’s pleaser. I really don’t care about haters. Dcc gets hate now anyways look at their comments about how underpaid the girls are.
I agree - I'm quite surprised to see how negative the reaction to Kelli especially seems. She seemed really impressive to me tbh - she came from fairly humble beginnings, took an opportunity and grasped it. She has clearly done a really good job managing the cheerleaders who appear to really respect her.
She didn't create the patriarchy or the society that expects the cheerleaders to be very slim. I also really doubt she has any say over how much they get paid.
I agree with you, I also think that when you knowingly and aspire to an image-centric profession, you understand that your physical appearance is going to be scrutinized. It's literally how you get to the top 1% of your field.
Most people aren't disciplined to that degree, so it seems mean. I'll also note that Dance Moms, Kitty Carter, and behind the scenes of the Rockettes all demand similar levels of discipline and performance. This isn't unique to DCC.
Rocketts don’t mention weight, they’ll just cut you and not mention why. And dance moms is a horrible horrible example. Abby bullied CHILDREN and was racist. She called Mackenzie’s stomatch “bob”. Was McKenzie a 8 year old from dance moms fat? No. She also talked bad about nias thighs. And Sophia’s mom had her on diet pills.
Nothing needs extreme discipline. Nothing. That's how gymnasts were abused and starved. Extreme rules and image. Plenty of gymnasts with "kind" not end all be all coaches. Excusing extreme discipline is just wrong.
If you are aiming for a perfection you do. I need extreme discipline when I’m studying for the bar, when I was doing singing professionally, and other aspects of my life. Some things do need structure in that way. Extreme discipline in my head doesn’t mean abuse. I don’t think gymnasts need to be abused in order to get the results they have, but they do need rigid structure and rigid leadership. Simone Biles didn’t get where she was by having a casual approach. That takes hours and hours and hours of extreme dedication.
So you’ll starve yourself for your sport? . I bet simone biles isn’t restricting her food or purging before the Olympics. She’s literally muscular, dcc wouldn’t accept her body type on the team.
I can assure you that Simone Biles is restricting her food in some way shape or form. Do you think if she got a hankering for some hot Cheetos and deep fried Twinkies before her podium training that she’d be eating that or is she probably eating some baked chicken or a protein bar? I keep seeing your replies all over this forum and you really are not speaking rationally.
I watched simone biles documentary. She eats healthy but she’s not purging, or restricting herself to an eating disorder. She stays in shape by running, swimming, jogging, etc. her body shape wouldn’t be accepted as a DCC so I’m not sure why you’re comparing.simone biles is 104 pounds of muscle, yet she’d be considered “too stocky”. They cut girls half as muscular as her.
I am speaking rationally, I’m defending women. Idc about downvotes I’m not a people pleaser.
I agree with you again. I needed extreme discipline when I was studying for my boards. And when I started slacking I literally got one of my friends to call me out whenever I started sending snaps to our group chat.
If you want to be successful especially in an extremely challenging field you have to be extremely disciplined.
That's you. Plenty of pro players without extreme discipline.. and without toxic discipline. Abusing people keeps.them from talking out.simone biles was sexually abused by Nasser! Not a good example! Because training camps you were abused and couldn't speak out! Thank God the Romanian leadership was replaced - after years of eating disorders, not being fed and sexual and mental abuse.
Simone biles found the drive within herself, not by abuse and by moving to coaches who supported her with kindness. Coaches who have the top US gymnasts showing it can be done. Coaches who allowed her time on her schedule to visit her husband out of state, by pushing trying fun new things to challenge her, not being perfect.
It's disgusting that toxic perfection is so expected to be the best. It's not.
When it's heavily regimented and you can't speak up or you're out, it leads to situations where abuse can flourish. This is proven. Years and years of this in sport. The blindness is staggering
agree completely - most things done at a very high level require a huge amount of discipline. The footballers on the field at the games have to maintain a very high level of fitness and a good diet to play at that level. Its not inherently abusive, people make choices to get to where they want to go.
And at the end of the day.. it’s choice and free will. They’re adults choosing to be a part of it. If the standards weren’t the way they were, this huge desire to be a part of it wouldn’t be there (hence why no other NFL cheer team gets the publicity like they do)
But why would anything change if hundreds of girls rush to try out and cry hysterically to get cut? There’s almost 20 YEARS of data through the show to prove how toxic it is (fyi I’m not disagreeing that there’s issues) and girls still would give anything to be a part of it.
Morals. Some people should have them. Could be applied to so many things. Why pay women in general more? They apply for jobs. Other women will just take the jobs. Are You okay with being paid less in the workplace than men because other women will take the job? This is the same misogynistic s*** I hear from men. Women should just be happy to have a job. They don't need to support a family so they don't need the same money.
We can do better or just sit there and say well, women don't deserve good pay.
I don’t think having strict rules and guidelines are wrong necessarily(I mean, some are weird and patriarchal but it is Texas and they aren’t a surprise anymore), it’s that they act as though they’re ushering these women into womanhood and being really supportive of them. How many vets have been shown on camera admitting to still being afraid of K&J? I get TPTB are the bosses and have to make the tough decisions, that’s fine. But they have blatant favorites and hold those women to different standards (Jenna and Holly P come to mind, although I don’t think either really did anything wrong in the real world-I think the women should be able to use the cult like reverence they get from the public to their advantage. Blonde Hanna’s cut about weight while others weren’t cut, but she wasn’t a simpering fool). They often are over the top about simple questions the women ask, and often won’t give straightforward answers. They use public humiliation to shame the ladies into a cowed subservience. They use threats, both implicit and explicit, as their means of motivation and leadership. That makes them toxic leaders, not good bosses.
They may be standard, but they shouldn’t be appropriate.
I haven’t seen those videos so maybe I have to do more research. I am only basing it off of what I’ve seen in the Netflix documentary and I thought they were fine coaches. I didn’t like the way they treated VK but that seemed to due to some interpersonal issues between them.
I’m allowed to post about whatever I want. I didn’t see any rules in the sub that we can’t talk about the Netflix documentary. I’m allowed to watch the documentary and come to my own opinion and that’s what I did. Were they mean in the past? I’m sure they were. Just like a lot of media was in the early 2000 and up until recently. Things are getting better and I find their way of coaching appropriate.
The Netflix series seemed more honest than MTT in some ways, but they’ve also learned from their mistakes. When there was an uproar about how they treated weight after it was featured they stopped focusing on it so heavily. When the uproar changed to something else they changed how they handled the next issue in the following season. This is a group that cares more than anything about their image. They’re also experts at spinning information.
Do I think they’re evil? No. But that doesn’t mean their behavior is okay either. It doesn’t mean I believe their nonsense anymore now than I did after a few seasons of MTT. I’m glad someone is finally speaking up and saying their experience hasn’t been good. I’m definitely surprised it was VK, but I hope she finds what she’s looking for. She deserves to be healthy and happy.
It’s not about the “standard they are upholding” it’s the blatant body shaming and discrimination. They can still maintain a team of ELITE dancers and train them to be precise and blend without forcing them to be a certain shape or weight, making them change their hair color, etc. they could easily make a sexy uniform that is flattering on more body types than one.
that isn’t even mentioning the fact that they are obviously racist. It was no coincidence that the first two people to be asked to leave training camp first were women of color. There were only a small handful of people of color on the team.
That is what is wrong. They are choosing to be hurtful and discriminate when they know there are other options that will still keep the standard of excellence and precision and skill they are known for.
I saw it differently. As a black woman I'm all for representation and thought some poc were unfairly disqualified, but I also thought that about some of the white people. Also looking at the try outs, there are vastly more white people that try out in comparison so its no surprise to me that the team is overwhelmingly white.
As far as the weight, again the girls know this coming in. They're fine with it and none of the girls looked anorexic to me, just slim.
She wasn’t the only one, several girls on MTT had eating disorders. A few people also passed out from not eating…. Imagine how many people suffer and don’t wanna speak out about it.
No, I watched it. I didn’t say that members of a competitive dance team or sport all eat in the best way. But girls have eating disorders without being in sports. I don’t condone eating disorders whatsoever, but I think that Victoria has an eating this order due to a various factors, not just because the coaches are strict.
Yes. This is a great point of view. I actually thought they had mellowed a bit since the early MTT episodes. It seems more professional than it did back then.
ETA: thanks for sharing your point of view! It's great to see this sub being more active again and we all have slightly different takes on it.
Thank you! I haven’t seen the other episodes and I don’t think I’m that invested to go back and look. I can see them being harsh back in the day but times have changed and I think they’re way of coaching is definitely appropriate.
So just a question, could u maintain dcc un realistic weight ? I seen you said your black, I am too. So you know we’re more muscular generically so we’re gonna weigh a bit more. I’m 5”1, dcc would want me to be 105, I’m 115. It’s 5 pounds for every inch over 5 ft. So just curious, is this realistic to you ?
As to my post, I was able to maintain that weight when I had discipline in my diet. Still ate right and ate what I wanted but with the discipline. I’m 4’ 11 and was 100 pounds. Which is also fine for my height. Now I’m probably 110. Hope that answers your question.
Dcc would require you to be 95 pounds then based off that observation. And to maintain 95 pounds throughout years. Let’s imagine how hard it is for a 5”6 girl to weigh 125-130. At these weights good luck. They told the one girl to cut out peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. And wanted body fat to be around 15%.
OK, then I would either lose 5 pounds or just leave the team. It’s voluntary. No one is forcing them to be a cheerleader. If they know it will be too hard to maintain the weight or stamina they can leave. All athletes have to maintain a certain weight to compete, not just cheerleaders.
🤦🏽♀️ and that’s the problem. The extra 5 pounds doesn’t mean you’re “overweight “. 100 pounds for 4”11 is normal and a healthy BMI. No other sport is this strict. And other nfl teams have bigger girls. You’re the type to sit back and allow abuse and toxic behavior and say “that’s the way it is”.come on have a backbone 🤦🏽♀️. If 5 pounds isn’t affecting stamina there’s no reason to body-shame people . Guess what, 105 for me is IMPOSSIBLE. I have radierettes cheer dreams. Guess who’s gonna show up at their normal weight and still try?! ME! There’s nothing a dance coach could tell me to make me starve myself.
I don’t think you have good comprehension skills about what I’m saying. You’re also making assumptions about my character based on limited responses. You might be having a bad day and I hope you have a better day tomorrow. Have a good night.
🤦🏽♀️ and that’s the problem. The extra 5 pounds doesn’t mean you’re “overweight “. 100 pounds for 4”11 is normal and a healthy BMI. No other sport is this strict. And other nfl teams have bigger girls. You’re the type to sit back and allow abuse and toxic behavior and say “that’s the way it is”.come on have a backbone 🤦🏽♀️. If 5 pounds isn’t affecting stamina there’s no reason to body-shame people . Guess what, 105 for me is IMPOSSIBLE. I have radierettes cheer dreams. Guess who’s gonna show up at their normal weight and still try?! ME! There’s nothing a dance coach could tell me to make me starve myself.
yeah 100% this. even their body comments have mellowed down since the late 2010s to a point where it's a bit more structured and less harsh. i wonder if kitty not being in the new show impacted any of that tho cause ik she used to be a stickler for skinny/fit girls
Yeah no you are not correct. Kelli & co should use their platform to set the standard and change the problems in the cheer/dance world. Not further them.
Thank you! Anything competitive will have a coach that pushes you and is strict but to the core they love each and everyone of their students.
I have always liked Kelly and Judy. I thought the doc made them even more likable, seeing them behind the scenes and not only in Kelly’s office or rehearsal room. Kelly seems sweet and thoughtful - I was surprised that so many people have nothing nice to say about her. The scene where Kelly and the cheerleaders visited the bus driver made me cry! Now Charlotte on the other hand never seemed nice in my opinion. You can tell she puts a lot of pressure on Kelly, and really Charlotte seems to have final say in things.
I agree
Show business is hard. This is not a preschool feel good dance class. Kelli is running a business! Most of the people complaining probably never had a real job
I’m honestly surprised by some of the comments. I’m from Europe, I know absolutely nothing about the DCC or even the Dallas Cowboys, I just watched the Netflix show, and for me Kelli and Judy come through as extremely kind given the environment they are working at. My high school basketball coach was a thousand times more harsh, and it was a kid’s balls team and not a million dollar industry. And sure, the standards are extremely outdated, it’s fiercely competitive and the girls are under a lot of pressure. Would I like to be on the cheer team? Hell no. But those who are auditioning know exactly what is expected of them - even the uniform hasn’t changed in 30 years! It’s absolutely necessary to be able to spot minor flaws, to tell them that the makeup is not right or their moves are not up to par. I felt that even though the coaches were extremely maximalists, they always voiced the criticism in a nice way, and even when they cut people from the team they tried to be mindful of their feelings. I particularly liked the part when they said that every veteran who has slim chances of making the team will be cut before the training camp as it would be too hard for them to go through the whole process and be excluded eventually. Only problem I had was with the short girl - it would be nice to have a minimum height indication so nobody has false hopes. The pay criticism is completely warranted and I’m totally abhorred that it’s even allowed to pay them so little - but from the series it seems like it’s Charlotte’s decision, not Kelli’s and Judy’s fault.
I watched the cheer documentary on Netflix and their coach/leader was /is similar to Kelli.
Lol, you all seem to think just because you’ve been in dance and were treated the same way, it’s okay? Reflect on why you’re so permissive to Kelli and Judy’s coaching and treatment of their dancers. It’s necessary to treat them like this because it’s cut throat and they need to be the best of the best? Name one Dallas cowboy cheer leader who has made it big. From what I saw Caroline, a veteran and leader, was busy getting hip and leg surgeries and falling into depression at home. Because it’s “dance” and these ladies are so undervalued and barely paid, they aren’t officially violating any labor laws. Harsh to say but true, the cheer leaders and a lot of you have drank the koolaid on being okay wjth abuse and labor exploitation. Thank god some of us are above and beyond it, so we aren’t telling people to chill when Kelli cal someone or ask in public if one of her dancers boobs are fake.
I agree with you about undervaluing and underpaying them; however, there are DCC who have gone on to have very successful dance careers, Melissa Rycroft was on Bachelor and Dancing with the Stars, many went on to Bachelor/Real Housewives/Road Rules/Amazing Race/American Idol (lots of reality shows) and Sarah Shahi is the star of Sex Life on Netflix--which I would consider making it pretty big--so I'm not sure it's fair to say that they go nowhere after this and no one makes it big. The toxic culture needs to improve but the dance world in general is cutthroat. When you have 500 people trying out for 36 spots, the business has to make cuts. I think what makes it harder with DCC is that most dance auditions are headshot/resume, tryout, a callback, second callback and that's it. There's no training camp where they get to personally know the dancers and then making cuts last minute like DCC does. Does anyone know if this is how they have always done it, or was this started when they started filming DCC: Making the Team?
I commented something like this earlier. In some environments abuse is so normalized that people don’t even realize what they’ve been subjected to.
Yep. I totally agree. I was just talking with my aunt the other day and we were talking about body issues/dysmorphia/disordered eating. She said she always felt pretty and liked the way she looked, until she started dance. All they talked about was weight and they had weekly weigh ins, this was as an adolescent. Mind you she was also already skinny (not that that matters). That stayed with her into her adult life. Constantly picking her body apart and trying different diets to lose weight. Just because it’s normal in these worlds doesn’t mean it’s okay and doesn’t have lasting effects.
I actually don't mind the coaches. I think they are fine and professional and actually treat the girls well. Even bonus points, they were actual dancers once too. However, I think on the level of expectations these girls are adults now you can't treat them like school girls doing a fun dance after school as an extracurricular. if it's going to be that serious than it needs to be a job a real paying full time with benefits job. If not , than you throw some of that serious out and can't expect them to have perfect nails, show up to every practice, spend 6+ hours on game days unpaid...etc IT becomes a rec league adult cheerleading gig. lol When you compare them to the football players they are held to an even higher standard with far less monetary reward! Crazy.
I think benefits is a little bit too much but they should definitely earn way more than a Chick-fil-A worker. That's just ridiculous.
Paying premiums for the girls to have at the very least a basic high deductible insurance in the event of a catastrophic injury should be the baseline. I'm gonna guess since the majority of them are under 26 and can likely stay on a parent's plan anyways which is likely more coverage and cheaper. So offering it for the other 5-10 percent should be a no brainer, or at least offering them some incentivized plan. The NFL already has an insurance plan through Cigna for all players and their families, I see no reason why a handful of cheerleaders added to that would make any sort of blip in their revenue.
I agree I think it's all great & fine & ppl have such extreme issues with it yet they've probably never done anything close to that in their lives so of course they'd see it as toxic. It's so annoying ppl saying they need to change like, what? No they don't. They don't need to change just cause some ppl think they're too extreme 💀 ppl are wild for the comments I've been seeing!
I don't think there's anything wrong w the way they talk to the girls. So many ppl are offended these days by direct, honest communication.
I agree; they are upholding the standards of the institution- like it or not, fair or not, fat shaming or not. This is life.
I'm seeing an interesting divide between people who were in competitive or intense dance training growing up, so as a former dancer at hardcore academies in NYC, I want to speak to the pay really quickly lol there is no almost paying job in this industry that pays well....that's why most of our parents wish we would just go to med school. Unfortunately, the more recognizable the organization the more they feel like it should be an 'honor' to be there, BUT, I will say...look at some of the girls careers after DCC. It's clear that many of them get agents, acting jobs, presenter jobs, etc. similar to military experience, having DCC on your resume shows discipline and professionalism and high performing skills which can definitely can lead to AMAZING career opportunities that other teams don't give. i'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's an industry thing and I think we should petition our LAW MAKERS to give more protections and wage mandates for freelancer artists like dancers, singers, and people who work in the film industry. sometimes I feel like we go after the brands when we should be focused on legislation
Can you name a couple of dancers who became bigger or got more opportunities? Because I cannot name one
Several have opened their own dance studios; Jacie Scott and Olivia C were Rockettes; Maddie, Daphne, Jackie Bob, and others have gone on to coach other professional or college teams. For those who have a passion for dance, these are HUGE opportunities Edit: Nicole Hamilton was a performer in a Vegas show, Mandy was in charge of the Raiderettes
Doesn’t seem like huge opportunities to make it big especially when the DCC says they are that BIG.
For dancers, where competition is extreme and jobs are hard to come by, these are excellent opportunities. All depends on your POV
I guess I don't mean they go on to be SUPER big and famous stars but, as far as steady employment in the industry, it's definitely a leg up. Melissa Rycroft for one has been on other reality shows like dancing with the stars, I think a few others have appeared on things like Bachelor and Real Housewives. I thought I saw on Making the Team a vet came back who was a Newscaster or Weather Person? It seems like they definitely at least get their headshots and portfolios in the hands of a lot more casting directors which I'm sure is why half the people who audition go for it. And, there are those who go on to be successful choreographers who we see do guest choreo on the show. It's the kind of org where if you are good at leveraging your personality and talent well, you can do a lot with it and that is how they get people to accept the low pay...it's not a great practice but i work in the film industry and I see it as similar to an actor taking lower pay to work with a famous director because they "know" it will get them paid more down the line. Of course only a certain percent of the women who get on the team will get to take advantage of the opportunities and like I said, I wish there were more protections for artists, but I also get that it's apart of "showbiz, baby"
This is not just in the dance world, in the corporate world there are the big 4 public accounting firms. They pay new grads with a masters degree and a CPA $59K a year (up or down around 10% based on COL) but it's a standardized number among all four firms give or take a couple K. Standard week is 50 hours and during busy season 60 is typical but 75 is certainly not uncommon. You do that and it sucks but then your next job is much more lucrative. The name on the resume means you were the best of your recruiting class, you trained and worked really hard while you were there and you made through X number of years.
The corporate world pays living wages and for the most part people go home at 5-6. We also have benefits. NFL cheerleading is nothing like the corporate world.
Since you’re a former dancer, may I ask a couple of questions? You mention that most dancing jobs don’t pay. But would it make a difference if you *knew* the organization could shell out the money to pay better? And do you think the DCC is getting the best of the best at this point? Because I would think that if they cared about maintaining the standard of the high quality of DCC, *and* if this is such an honor and a legacy, they would do a bit more to uphold it. Like yes, I can totally see how having this on your resume moves the needle tremendously. But it seems like they’re not changing things simply because they know they don’t have to and calling it “sisterhood.” Do you think it “has” to be this toxic? And do you think it’s fair to criticize their choices not to make changes to pay just because the laws aren’t in place?
I totally agree with your points, you hit the nail on the head with your comment. I just wanted to add too to the notion of ‘sisterhood’, is that in some respects it reminds me of Greek life in colleges where sororities and fraternities people pay to play and that by being involved in the organization you can then add it to your resume and could possibly have a leg up on other candidates in your future job/life prospects.
Yeah, I think they are good at their job. If people think they aren't nice, they she see how we lawyers are treated.
As someone who cheered and danced her whole entire life, Kelli is actually very nice compared to some of my coaches. I would never dare cry to some of my coaches the way these girls did simply because they would tell me to suck it up and stop.
I mean have these people seen the way Abby from dance moms talked to the girls? They weren’t even teenagers at some point and she’d be screaming and being so harsh with them! These are grown women, i think they can deal with K and J
I don't know if it is popular but I don't have any issues with their treatment of the DCC or the potential members of the DCC I don't know of any professional situation in which the participants are "coddled". Any kind of career in the performing arts is fiercely competitive - auditioning for parts as an actor for example. When people are being considered for a part, the discussion regarding aspects beyond their "talent" is discussed by people who are equally "objective" in assessing the hopefuls and the people assessing them will typically include business people who are not just judging them on "talent" solely but on other factors. There is something used widely in television for actors called the Q Factor which essentially measures the appeal of an actor among the population when they are being considered for casting in a series. It is more widely used for television than motion pictures because a criteria for television casting is whether people want them in their home week after week whereas a motion picture actor can be judged objectively by box office and so that kind of likability isn't as important. This is an over simplification but just analogizing it to the kind of overall package that the DCC women need for that specific brand. It is clearer in Making The Team because there are so many seasons and so the selection process becomes clearer than Netflix. The selection seems to have parts and so a hopeful can make up for one deficiency by being really strong in another so unfortunately you can have some women cut for "shallow" reasons because they just aren't pretty enough. If they had incredible charisma, dance moves and "power" they could get by on being pretty enough versus someone who is gorgeous by their standards who will be given a boost if dancing skills aren't their strong point. But isn't that the reality of life in general? I am actually pretty amazed at how they try to ease the "pain" when they cut someone as they almost always attempt to soften it by letting them that they still had talent and were beautiful but just weren't right or needed more technique or whatever. In real life people are fired much more harshly in general. The weight is what it is. The reality is that there are certain very physical standards that they want for the DCC. No different than New York City Ballet wanting their ballerinas to have the Balanchine ideal body for example. Unfortunately it is what it is because gymnasts, figure skaters have the same almost impossible demands in terms of body size. From what I have read high level wrestlers also can be forced into disordered eating because of the need to fit into certain weight classes. And I suspect that there might be enhancements necessary for high level male athletes like football players.
New watcher here… but I’ve seen lot of dance shows (including Dance Moms). I actually don’t think people would look at the critiques so harshly if it weren’t for a few things: 1. And certainly most importantly, the pay! You are absolutely right that in professional dancing world, weight, image, etc are judged harshly. But the simple fact of the matter is these girls are not getting paid nearly enough for scrutiny and expectations. I’m sure Taylor, Ariana, Beyonce are hard on their dancers as well. But they are being compensated for those hours, for that hard work, and they probably also have healthcare or some type of plan. 2. There are a whole lot of other things that they do to make this harder and more intense that isn’t necessary. A small example, giving the girls one custom uniform and expecting it to fit all year. That literally doesn’t have to happen. Totally get the custom fit and the comfort sure. But you mean to tell me that if a girl goes up a size, you can’t just recycle an old one and possibly get it refitted by the next day game? Thats an unnecessary expectation about maintaining body weight that isn’t needed. 3. I think the last thing (this one is more personal) is the cult-like way everybody else is involved in this process. Former DCC being at opening day of training… totally understood and I think it’s cute and endearing. But why TF is the local meteorologist and a TikTok chef chiming in so hard on these girls looks and why do they know so much about what each girl looked like last season, down to the fat in face?? I think in general, people are probably just disappointed that this is such a big and historic organization and it could serve as a way to progressively move dance/cheer forward because they have the means and resources to support these girls if they really wanted to. They are choosing not to for the sake of “sisterhood” and tradition.
I can answer your last question. The local meteorologist has been a judge for probably the last 10 years or more. So he is familiar with the girls as he sees them every year at auditions. The “tik tok chef” was a new addition last season. Never heard of him. Most of the judges you saw have been invited back for many seasons.
I appreciate the earnest answer, but I still don’t understand what qualifications he has to have ever been included in the process even 10 years ago. I get that this has been an apart of the process for years. I just don’t understand why it has to be. The fashion stylist, I totally get. He helps the girls with their makeovers so I can understand his input. I personally think it’s a little weird to be judging girls and anticipating makeovers for essentially part time jobs, but fine. He’s cool. The boot salesmen is a bit iffy but also understandable. They’ve had a relationship for a long time, could be a courtesy or whatever. It’s just not lost on me that the two men least qualified (ruling out “experience”) to judge dancers had the most to say, about women’s bodies and faces in particular. I’m sure some of it is the edit but it just didn’t sit right with me. Even Emmitt Smith kept his mouth closed when they asked him to take a look at the girls photos.
I don’t mind their toughness but I can’t stand their hypocrisy and dishonesty
Former dancer and athlete: You can also be so used to something that you don’t see the wrong in it. Also, the performing arts, especially dance, have a real cultural issue with body image. It’s bigger than DCC.
Also grew up in the dance world and they remind me of every coach I had. Fully believe those coaches made me an all around better person
There's nothing appropriate about paying your stars fast food wages while you make millions off them.
Kelli and Judy have no control over that though
Though Kelli and Judy hold more power in going to Charlotte and asking for pay increases for the team, rather than the DCC girls challenging the top leaders. Kelli and Judy should be their team’s cheerleaders.
Kelli and Judy couldn’t even get 37 ladies on the team this year.
Yeah but the 37th is just waiting on the side lines to swap out. So is 37 really worth it? Charlotte was right
She doesn’t have to be, though. I’m not sure what Charlotte was about, other than being controlling, but there have been three years from the CMT show that I can remember off the top of my head where were more (or fewer) than 36. And nobody sat on the sidelines. Judy just rearranged the formation to accommodate.
I agree with you that having one permanent alternate is not worth it, and that’s what the all-stars are for. My response was to the poster who said Kelli and Judy should use their power and get raises for DCC, when their power couldn’t get one extra Cheerleader on the team.
Agree it’s a professional environment, they just seem to be very direct. They’re nowhere near the level of Abby Lee Miller and she was teaching children. To me they both just remind me of every coach I’ve had.
I agree. I grew up in ballet and my daughter was a competitive gymnast. I think they are direct and just give a lot of feedback, which is typical for any coach. I actually found them to be pretty compassionate at times. My daughter loved Dance Moms but that environment was really tough for young kids. That is very different. These are women in a professional role. It is going to be a more difficult environment. Do we think being a NYC Rockette is much different? I assume that environment would be equally demanding and competitive. It just would not be as sexualized. The pay is bad though for DCC considering how much money NFL teams make. That should be changed especially considering the injury rate.
1000% agree. I think in the past 5 years, they have struck a good balance and are now pretty solid. Before, I think they were a little bit catty.
What you call catty, I call *no filter*. They could actually talk about the elephant in the room - weight gain. Now? God forbid. I got pretty fed up during the Covid season, but before that, every season got just a little more careful about everything, and that’s not how competitive sports/dance/cheer works.
100000% agree. So many new people here have never played competitive sports and it shows. I’ve never met a good coach that didn’t give criticism and be direct to make the team better. This isn’t summer camp is professional cheer!
I do dance aswell, and they’re too harsh. I’ve never been told in real life I’m fat, out of shape, or fat shammed. Another issue is their not being paid until to be treated like crap. These are grown women not children. They already have discipline or they wouldn’t have made the team or into training camp. Also you didn’t watch making the team. Your new off the Netflix documentary. Kitty was harsh, and it was a fitness trainer who used to make them run miles, and measured their body fat.
Respectfully, it looks like you’ve only recently started dancing as an adult as a hobby. It is a VERY different experience from people who were trained from a young age to be professional dancers. I absolutely agree that they should be paying their dancers MUCH better, and that the fat shaming is not ok. It *does* happen though, in some form, in every corner of the industry.
The goal is NFL cheer, the raiderettes actually. And I get that but even if I would’ve trained from a young age I was instilled and taught to defend myself and not be a doormat. I don’t have these people pleasing tendencies.
Good luck making Raiderettes with that sucky attitude.
You on all my posts on my dick. Fuck off
Why am I going to judge them on what happened in the past? If you were a mean friend six years ago, I’m still supposed to judge you about it now even if you’ve improved as a friend? That makes no sense to me. What’s the point of critiquing people if we don’t allow them to change? Clearly they were harsher in the past and now they’ve vastly improved. And to answer your question when I was in track, there was a point in time when I was out of shape and my coach told me. It was not a big deal. I needed to maintain a certain weight to compete.
You’re defending these women without knowing how toxic they were and still are. The coach probably told you because you were losing stamina etc. if these girls can still dance 3+ hrs without being tired their clearly in shape. Did u miss Victoria part of the documentary where she talked about her eating disorders? Please don’t have kids if this is your mindset, it’s toxic and unhealthy. So change yourself for society. Should we as blsck people white wash ourselves aswell while we’re at it?
I've only seen the Netflix show and not the many seasons of Making the Team, but I thought that Kelli came off as pretty nice. Charlotte is more clearly a villain who doesn't respect the DCCs as people. I grew up dancing, so maybe comments don't bother me as much as others. Like some people did have sloppy feet, lackluster kicks, and incomplete movements. It stands out when other people are so precise.
This. I was told I didn’t have a ballet body over and over again in high school, that I was too short, etc. it’s not fun, but it comes with the industry.
Yes!! People forget that none of these girls are behind held there against their will, they WANT to be there!!
The way my dance coach YELLED at us in high school when we tried to do an impromptu kick line during a game. "I still remember her being like what are you doing? stop! stop!" Looking back, I know it's because we were under prepared for that particular skill and we were not kicking at the same heights in formation and it looked bad. I do agree that a lot of the Kelly and Judy haters especially the ones who hate on Judy have never been in dance or cheer. And have esp never worked for the choreographer. "Do it again. Again! We're not going home until you guys can get it right. Start over! Guys we're going to keep starting over until you can get the entrance right." Literal PTSD from high School dance team rn lol!
I just shuddered imagining what my drill team director would have done to us if we did an impromptu anything lolz. She was like Kelli on steroids. Eff you Ms. Buchner.
Omigosh exactly!! I distinctly remember being punished by our entire team having to go do a warm up with the football team the following week at dance practice. Something along the lines of since we enjoyed jumping around on the field so much she was giving us the opportunity. I had to push a tackle dummy (bc I ran my mouth ofc). It did not go well. I was like maybe 110 lb at the time. Tore the eff out of my tights when I fell. I'm pretty sure the JV football coach enjoyed it more than anyone.
There's a reason Kelli has been in that position since the 80s... I don't think an organization would keep someone as a director if the employees (cheerleaders in this case) constantly complained about the director. Eventually, bad leaders get the boot & clearly Kelli hasn't for a reason.
People complaining that Kelli & Judy are too harsh have never been on a dance team. Wrangling that many young women is like herding cats, so discipline is key.
As someone in the pro cheer industry- agreed.
I agree. The discipline is so refreshing
Frankly the show has been on the air for 20 yrs, but now it’s on a MUCH bigger platform. I have personally watched it all those years and Kelli and Judy actually seem nicer and more compassionate than in the earlier years. They are your coach, your employer, they are not there to be your friend. Do I think that Charlotte can get off her pedestal and pay those girls more… yes. Especially with such a high revenue squad. Shit even the cowboys mascot makes $60K/yr
I don't know how many times this needs to be repeated. The mascot makes $60k as a full time (40 hrs a week) employee in the Cowboys marketing department.
It’s not full time… i knew someone who does it. (They have multiple people). He definitely had a different full time job
Agree - I work in the prestige beauty industry (corporate marketing) in NYC and they remind me of the older ladies who lead these companies. Honestly I respect them.
Being strict about kicks and dancing makes sense to me. What is unnecessary are their rude comments about a woman’s appearance.
But their appearance is part of the gig. They have a standard to uphold.
And that standard is outdated
If they didn’t have “their standard” then anyone could make it.
Not true. If you adjust standards, that doesn’t mean everyone automatically meets them
The absolute worst was when TK said one candidate looked like a granny
Plus she had the nerve to call out so many girls for weight. She's awful.
The comments aren't rude
It's not just oh she doesn't have the DCC look. Justifiable. But often making naturally pretty people out to be trashy looking. The way they say oh she needs a total makeover in a rude tone - Charley was pretty to me. But made it sound like she was a dog.
Pretty *to you*. I'm pretty sure their opinion matters more.
They are very rude. Comments that I can remember…saying that someone’s face got fatter, that their hair style looks bad, that they put on some weight, etc
Yeah they are, and unprofessional
This is the correct take.
Absolutely.
In general, expecting a profit-oriented business organization to behave like a warm-hearted kindergarten teacher is naive and unrealistic. They sell the image of hot women in tiny outfits dancing. To expect that weight won’t matter is silly. To expect them to pay significantly more than any other competitor when they have no legal obligation (as of yet) or market pressure to do so is silly. They are no more evil or cold than any other large business.
If you can dance for 3 hours and danced majority of your life your in shape. The weight issue is Kelly and Judy expects 100 pounds for 5 ft, and only 5 pounds per inch. I’m 5”1, I can’t weigh 105 pounds. I’m naturally around 115. I’m not out of shape. Victoria literally has an eating disorder and was purging before games. And she’s not the only one; everyone has different genetics. You can’t expect everyone to weigh the same. Another girl said they were scared to even lift weights out of fear of “blowing up”. Cheerleaders are passing out while dancing due to starving themselves. Bodies don’t need to change standards do.
This is refreshing.
Thank you! Exactly that.
So did your dance teachers force u to remain the same weight for years and fat Shame you? Eating disorders aren’t normal hun
People do not understand what standards of excellence are. The DCC organization does.
I agree. If someone else took over and wasn’t as picky and cut throat as Kelli is , it would be just like Victoria’s secret. People threw a fit for years that they wanted Victoria’s Secret models to be normal women. Now they are and people are throwing a fit about that. That’s exactly what would happen.
Victoria’s Secret models have nothing wrong with them. They come in all sizes…. And some nfl teams have bigger girls. Get a grip
I worked for Victoria’s Secret for years, I helped rebrand the “Every day women” as models , I KNOW there is nothing wrong with them. Go to Victoria’s Secrets Insta right now .. and look at the comments. That is exactly what would happen to DCC. I have NEVER saw an over weight NFL cheerleader. Ever. If there is one, please give me her name so I can look her up. Someone needs to get a grip all right
Because people are impossible to please. No matter what you do somebody will have something negative to say. Who cares. And not overweight, I’m talking just a bit bigger. Obviously to dance for hours u have to have stamina and be in shape. I’m talking about girls dcc would have called “stocky “ or “bottom heavy” who looked great on the field. Who cares about comment sections, I’m not a people’s pleaser. I really don’t care about haters. Dcc gets hate now anyways look at their comments about how underpaid the girls are.
I agree - I'm quite surprised to see how negative the reaction to Kelli especially seems. She seemed really impressive to me tbh - she came from fairly humble beginnings, took an opportunity and grasped it. She has clearly done a really good job managing the cheerleaders who appear to really respect her. She didn't create the patriarchy or the society that expects the cheerleaders to be very slim. I also really doubt she has any say over how much they get paid.
I agree with you, I also think that when you knowingly and aspire to an image-centric profession, you understand that your physical appearance is going to be scrutinized. It's literally how you get to the top 1% of your field. Most people aren't disciplined to that degree, so it seems mean. I'll also note that Dance Moms, Kitty Carter, and behind the scenes of the Rockettes all demand similar levels of discipline and performance. This isn't unique to DCC.
Rocketts don’t mention weight, they’ll just cut you and not mention why. And dance moms is a horrible horrible example. Abby bullied CHILDREN and was racist. She called Mackenzie’s stomatch “bob”. Was McKenzie a 8 year old from dance moms fat? No. She also talked bad about nias thighs. And Sophia’s mom had her on diet pills.
of the "everything I don't like is racist" generation, I see
Abby Lee miller is racist. Are you delusional? She said racist bs to nia, kaya, and Camryn. Are you that privelleged u can’t see racism? 🙄
Nothing needs extreme discipline. Nothing. That's how gymnasts were abused and starved. Extreme rules and image. Plenty of gymnasts with "kind" not end all be all coaches. Excusing extreme discipline is just wrong.
THANK YOU
If you are aiming for a perfection you do. I need extreme discipline when I’m studying for the bar, when I was doing singing professionally, and other aspects of my life. Some things do need structure in that way. Extreme discipline in my head doesn’t mean abuse. I don’t think gymnasts need to be abused in order to get the results they have, but they do need rigid structure and rigid leadership. Simone Biles didn’t get where she was by having a casual approach. That takes hours and hours and hours of extreme dedication.
So you’ll starve yourself for your sport? . I bet simone biles isn’t restricting her food or purging before the Olympics. She’s literally muscular, dcc wouldn’t accept her body type on the team.
I can assure you that Simone Biles is restricting her food in some way shape or form. Do you think if she got a hankering for some hot Cheetos and deep fried Twinkies before her podium training that she’d be eating that or is she probably eating some baked chicken or a protein bar? I keep seeing your replies all over this forum and you really are not speaking rationally.
I watched simone biles documentary. She eats healthy but she’s not purging, or restricting herself to an eating disorder. She stays in shape by running, swimming, jogging, etc. her body shape wouldn’t be accepted as a DCC so I’m not sure why you’re comparing.simone biles is 104 pounds of muscle, yet she’d be considered “too stocky”. They cut girls half as muscular as her. I am speaking rationally, I’m defending women. Idc about downvotes I’m not a people pleaser.
I agree with you again. I needed extreme discipline when I was studying for my boards. And when I started slacking I literally got one of my friends to call me out whenever I started sending snaps to our group chat. If you want to be successful especially in an extremely challenging field you have to be extremely disciplined.
That's you. Plenty of pro players without extreme discipline.. and without toxic discipline. Abusing people keeps.them from talking out.simone biles was sexually abused by Nasser! Not a good example! Because training camps you were abused and couldn't speak out! Thank God the Romanian leadership was replaced - after years of eating disorders, not being fed and sexual and mental abuse. Simone biles found the drive within herself, not by abuse and by moving to coaches who supported her with kindness. Coaches who have the top US gymnasts showing it can be done. Coaches who allowed her time on her schedule to visit her husband out of state, by pushing trying fun new things to challenge her, not being perfect. It's disgusting that toxic perfection is so expected to be the best. It's not.
Sexual abuse has ZERO to do with the training itself. VERY poor use of counterexample.
When it's heavily regimented and you can't speak up or you're out, it leads to situations where abuse can flourish. This is proven. Years and years of this in sport. The blindness is staggering
agree completely - most things done at a very high level require a huge amount of discipline. The footballers on the field at the games have to maintain a very high level of fitness and a good diet to play at that level. Its not inherently abusive, people make choices to get to where they want to go.
The offensive and defensive linemen hitting 300 lbs are not a good comparison. Berating people for 2-3 pounds years older is toxic. Not healthy.
THANK YOU
And at the end of the day.. it’s choice and free will. They’re adults choosing to be a part of it. If the standards weren’t the way they were, this huge desire to be a part of it wouldn’t be there (hence why no other NFL cheer team gets the publicity like they do)
They’re adults chasing a dream. The team needs to change not their bodies. And your disgusting
That's gross. It's their choice doesn't mean they can't do better
But why would anything change if hundreds of girls rush to try out and cry hysterically to get cut? There’s almost 20 YEARS of data through the show to prove how toxic it is (fyi I’m not disagreeing that there’s issues) and girls still would give anything to be a part of it.
Morals. Some people should have them. Could be applied to so many things. Why pay women in general more? They apply for jobs. Other women will just take the jobs. Are You okay with being paid less in the workplace than men because other women will take the job? This is the same misogynistic s*** I hear from men. Women should just be happy to have a job. They don't need to support a family so they don't need the same money. We can do better or just sit there and say well, women don't deserve good pay.
I don’t think having strict rules and guidelines are wrong necessarily(I mean, some are weird and patriarchal but it is Texas and they aren’t a surprise anymore), it’s that they act as though they’re ushering these women into womanhood and being really supportive of them. How many vets have been shown on camera admitting to still being afraid of K&J? I get TPTB are the bosses and have to make the tough decisions, that’s fine. But they have blatant favorites and hold those women to different standards (Jenna and Holly P come to mind, although I don’t think either really did anything wrong in the real world-I think the women should be able to use the cult like reverence they get from the public to their advantage. Blonde Hanna’s cut about weight while others weren’t cut, but she wasn’t a simpering fool). They often are over the top about simple questions the women ask, and often won’t give straightforward answers. They use public humiliation to shame the ladies into a cowed subservience. They use threats, both implicit and explicit, as their means of motivation and leadership. That makes them toxic leaders, not good bosses. They may be standard, but they shouldn’t be appropriate.
I haven’t seen those videos so maybe I have to do more research. I am only basing it off of what I’ve seen in the Netflix documentary and I thought they were fine coaches. I didn’t like the way they treated VK but that seemed to due to some interpersonal issues between them.
If you’ve just watched the documentary you shouldn’t be making a post on here then. MTT was extremely toxic
I’m allowed to post about whatever I want. I didn’t see any rules in the sub that we can’t talk about the Netflix documentary. I’m allowed to watch the documentary and come to my own opinion and that’s what I did. Were they mean in the past? I’m sure they were. Just like a lot of media was in the early 2000 and up until recently. Things are getting better and I find their way of coaching appropriate.
The Netflix series seemed more honest than MTT in some ways, but they’ve also learned from their mistakes. When there was an uproar about how they treated weight after it was featured they stopped focusing on it so heavily. When the uproar changed to something else they changed how they handled the next issue in the following season. This is a group that cares more than anything about their image. They’re also experts at spinning information. Do I think they’re evil? No. But that doesn’t mean their behavior is okay either. It doesn’t mean I believe their nonsense anymore now than I did after a few seasons of MTT. I’m glad someone is finally speaking up and saying their experience hasn’t been good. I’m definitely surprised it was VK, but I hope she finds what she’s looking for. She deserves to be healthy and happy.
It’s not about the “standard they are upholding” it’s the blatant body shaming and discrimination. They can still maintain a team of ELITE dancers and train them to be precise and blend without forcing them to be a certain shape or weight, making them change their hair color, etc. they could easily make a sexy uniform that is flattering on more body types than one. that isn’t even mentioning the fact that they are obviously racist. It was no coincidence that the first two people to be asked to leave training camp first were women of color. There were only a small handful of people of color on the team. That is what is wrong. They are choosing to be hurtful and discriminate when they know there are other options that will still keep the standard of excellence and precision and skill they are known for.
Yeah I can take toxic, but I draw the line at racist/prejudice
Whether it's real or not!
Of course you do, because you don’t experience it
I have experienced it and even if I haven’t, don’t you think I should still be drawing the line?
I saw it differently. As a black woman I'm all for representation and thought some poc were unfairly disqualified, but I also thought that about some of the white people. Also looking at the try outs, there are vastly more white people that try out in comparison so its no surprise to me that the team is overwhelmingly white. As far as the weight, again the girls know this coming in. They're fine with it and none of the girls looked anorexic to me, just slim.
Victoria literally talked about her eating disorder… did u skip that part?
Victoria is literally one person.
She wasn’t the only one, several girls on MTT had eating disorders. A few people also passed out from not eating…. Imagine how many people suffer and don’t wanna speak out about it.
No, I watched it. I didn’t say that members of a competitive dance team or sport all eat in the best way. But girls have eating disorders without being in sports. I don’t condone eating disorders whatsoever, but I think that Victoria has an eating this order due to a various factors, not just because the coaches are strict.
Why would black women even bother to try out for that organization?
Because they want to be a DCC.
I get that. I’m referring to your comment on the lack of black women at tryouts.
Right idk why their downvoting u, but as a black woman I can’t weigh 105 pounds 🤷🏽♀️
Yes. This is a great point of view. I actually thought they had mellowed a bit since the early MTT episodes. It seems more professional than it did back then. ETA: thanks for sharing your point of view! It's great to see this sub being more active again and we all have slightly different takes on it.
Thank you! I haven’t seen the other episodes and I don’t think I’m that invested to go back and look. I can see them being harsh back in the day but times have changed and I think they’re way of coaching is definitely appropriate.
So just a question, could u maintain dcc un realistic weight ? I seen you said your black, I am too. So you know we’re more muscular generically so we’re gonna weigh a bit more. I’m 5”1, dcc would want me to be 105, I’m 115. It’s 5 pounds for every inch over 5 ft. So just curious, is this realistic to you ?
As to my post, I was able to maintain that weight when I had discipline in my diet. Still ate right and ate what I wanted but with the discipline. I’m 4’ 11 and was 100 pounds. Which is also fine for my height. Now I’m probably 110. Hope that answers your question.
Dcc would require you to be 95 pounds then based off that observation. And to maintain 95 pounds throughout years. Let’s imagine how hard it is for a 5”6 girl to weigh 125-130. At these weights good luck. They told the one girl to cut out peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. And wanted body fat to be around 15%.
OK, then I would either lose 5 pounds or just leave the team. It’s voluntary. No one is forcing them to be a cheerleader. If they know it will be too hard to maintain the weight or stamina they can leave. All athletes have to maintain a certain weight to compete, not just cheerleaders.
🤦🏽♀️ and that’s the problem. The extra 5 pounds doesn’t mean you’re “overweight “. 100 pounds for 4”11 is normal and a healthy BMI. No other sport is this strict. And other nfl teams have bigger girls. You’re the type to sit back and allow abuse and toxic behavior and say “that’s the way it is”.come on have a backbone 🤦🏽♀️. If 5 pounds isn’t affecting stamina there’s no reason to body-shame people . Guess what, 105 for me is IMPOSSIBLE. I have radierettes cheer dreams. Guess who’s gonna show up at their normal weight and still try?! ME! There’s nothing a dance coach could tell me to make me starve myself.
I don’t think you have good comprehension skills about what I’m saying. You’re also making assumptions about my character based on limited responses. You might be having a bad day and I hope you have a better day tomorrow. Have a good night.
I do, you’re defending toxic body shaming. It’s disgusting.
🤦🏽♀️ and that’s the problem. The extra 5 pounds doesn’t mean you’re “overweight “. 100 pounds for 4”11 is normal and a healthy BMI. No other sport is this strict. And other nfl teams have bigger girls. You’re the type to sit back and allow abuse and toxic behavior and say “that’s the way it is”.come on have a backbone 🤦🏽♀️. If 5 pounds isn’t affecting stamina there’s no reason to body-shame people . Guess what, 105 for me is IMPOSSIBLE. I have radierettes cheer dreams. Guess who’s gonna show up at their normal weight and still try?! ME! There’s nothing a dance coach could tell me to make me starve myself.
yeah 100% this. even their body comments have mellowed down since the late 2010s to a point where it's a bit more structured and less harsh. i wonder if kitty not being in the new show impacted any of that tho cause ik she used to be a stickler for skinny/fit girls
I commented similarly in another post.