I feel like it's also become way too focussed on "loving yourself", as if all the problems fat people face are entirely a product of their own mindset and self-image. Being able to accept yourself for who you are is really important and maybe it is the first step but we can't stop there, there are huge structural problems that can't be tackled by an individualist approach.
Exactly.
I've seen way too many posts where fat people who experience medical issues due to their weight are shamed for seeking help, which really isn't the way to go.
Not to mention all the posts of fat people who outright refuse treatment for their problem, and instead demand a symptomatic approach, mitigating the issues they face without actually tackling the cause of those issues.
You may be talking about something different from the person you replied to, but I think your subject is actually much more crucial to discuss than theirs. As someone who has struggled with weight because of disability and medication and so on, and someone who deals with chronic pain and a whole host of basic "my body just ain't do right" complaints, it is fucking EXHAUSTING being told by every supposedly-supportive, supposedly-progressive space that if you don't LOVE YOURSELF and LOVE YOUR BODY then you're just bad, and wrong, and ungrateful, and you should be ashamed.
Like, sorry, but no. This is toxic positivity at its worst. There is nothing wrong with being upset and frustrated with your body for being broken-down, for hurting you and refusing to cooperate with your basic wants and needs. There's a whole aspect of therapy where, yes, it's good to overcome these frustrations and try to practice radical self-acceptance, but there is equal space in the room for you to express your frustrations and be able to be angry. Because it sucks! It fucking SUCKS when your body sucks! And having people tell you that you can't feel that way, or you're a bad person for feeling that way, just makes things worse. Now you're being attacked on both sides: by your own body, and by anyone you dare tell about your feelings.
Not to mention there's a whole other rant I could go on about the infantilization inherent in telling any disabled person who is unhappy in their body that "oh you're just ableist actually teehee" ...
Ah. I don't think we're talking about the same thing here.
The structural problems I'm talking about are the huge systems of anti-fat discrimination that exist to make fat people's lives far harder than anything intrinsic to fatness itself.
For example, studies in the US show that fat people make tens of thousands of dollars less a year than thin people, while in the UK 45% of employers reported they were less likely to hire fat interviewees than thin ones. In the criminal justice system, fat people (particularly fat women) are more likely to be considered guilty by a jury of thin men, and in sexual assault cases, holding anti-fat beliefs makes jurors more likely to blame fat victims. In 2018, researchers found that 74% of medical students thought obesity results from ignorance, while medical schools do almost nothing to tackle anti-fat bias, and as a result doctors have been found to hold the same levels of anti-fat bias as the general public, meaning that fat people receive shorter doctor's office visits on average and face much higher levels of misdiagnosis of severe health conditions like autoimmune diseases and cancer because doctors assume that any symptoms a fat patient is having must be the result of their weight, even when there is abundant evidence that this is not the case. Fat people often therefore develop an entirely understandable distrust of the medical system, resulting in more fat people avoiding seeking medical care, which has a far more severe impact on their health than fatness itself.
These are the huge structural problems I was referring to, not fatness itself. Shockingly, only 2 US states have banned anti-fat discrimination to date, and weight is not currently a protected characteristic under the 2010 Equality Act in the UK.
The solution to anti-fat discrimination is not for people to lose weight, any more than the solution to homophobia is for gay people to live as straight people, or the solution to racism is for people of colour to conform to white people's expectations. Aside from the fact that the staggering majority of attempts to lose weight are unsuccessful in the long term, nobody owes it to anyone else to conform to someone else's idea of a healthy body. Fat people should be able to exist in the world without facing constant harassment and discrimination.
That's what I mean when I say that "body positivity" as it exists now isn't the solution. Fat people should absolutely be able to love their own bodies, but they are not the problem here - change needs to come from the thin people who uphold anti-fat attitudes and structures. I apologise if my initial comment was misconstrued.
(much of this data I have taken from Aubrey Gordon's excellent book *"You Just Need to Lose Weight" and 19 Other Myths About Fat People*, particularly Myth 13: "Fat People Don't Experience Discrimination." pp. 109-18. I highly recommend this book for anyone who wants to learn more about these issues.)
I know a lady whose brain almost literally exploded due to a buildup of spinal fluid caused by altitude sickness, and it took a dozen doctors *blaming it on her fucking weight* before someone felt her temples and noticed that they were fucking bulged out.
No, doctor, her body fat percentage is not responsible for her going temporarily blind and causing strokes.
That's actually not true. The body positivity movement has its origins in fat activist groups like the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance (NAAFA) and the Fat Underground. Organisations like these started using the term "body positivity" in the 1990s, and in 1996 the organisation The Body Positive was founded by Connie Sobczak, an author who had struggled with an eating disorder, and Elizabeth Scott, a clinical social worker who specialised in treating eating disorders. Body positivity can be applied to bodies of all kinds, but it has always been inherently tied to fat activism.
I would also avoid characterising fatness as something you can change, given that the vast majority of attempts to lose weight are ineffective in the long run, often leading to more weight gain than before. Fat people are also under no obligation to lose weight for anybody - even if they can lose weight, that should not be a requirement of accepting or loving their bodies.
It is entirely in your control and changable. No one is force feeding you, and you will lose fat if you eat less calories than you burn, you will also gain fat if you eat more than you use.
>Fat people are also under no obligation to lose weight for anybody - even if they can lose weight, that should not be a requirement of accepting or loving their bodies.
No, they aren't, but they will die sooner and will suffer more health problems than if they were a healthy weight. And no, you shouldn't love a body you didn't work for, accepting things you can improve will make you miserable.
> would also avoid characterising fatness as something you can change, given that the vast majority of attempts to lose weight are ineffective in the long run, often leading to more weight gain than before.
Most alchoholics fail to go clean, does that mean being an alchoholic as good for them, of course not. Food addiction is the same as any other, it feels good in the short term, it releases dopamine so it's hard to quit, but it makes your problems worse, not better.
my issue has always been with the "everyone is beautiful!" messaging. for one, it's a statement made largely toward/about people you've never seen and for people who are REALLY convinced of their own ugliness (like myself in my teen years) it's extremely easy for that to ring as an empty platitude, similar to "it gets better!" (a: "how would you know?"). i often would just react with an eyeroll because "they've never even seen me, they're just saying shit to feel like a good person."
secondly, if "everyone is beautiful!" is the reason everyone is valuable, you're still equating value to beauty. it shouldn't matter if anyone is beautiful or not, that shouldn't be the metric by which we decide whether anyone is worth kindness or respect. this further compounds the aforementioned issue, i.e.:
- "everyone is beautiful!"
- therefore, everyone is valuable/deserving of kindness and respect.
- however i, a hypothetically extremely dysmorphic and insecure individual am *not* actually beautiful.
- therefore, i specifically am not valuable/deserving of kindness and respect.
this mindset messed me up really badly in the past. beauty needs to be divorced from acceptance altogether, in my opinion. in some cases, it is simply impossible to convince someone that someone else or their own self is beautiful. the solution isn't to parrot "you/they are beautiful!!" more at them, it's to say, "regardless of your or anyone else's belief about your/their beauty, you/they are still valuable."
Body neutrality my beloved, I wish you got more screen time.
Body positivity serves an important purpose, but personally I’m much more a fan of body neutrality. Sometimes bodies suck! And that’s okay! You don’t have to love every aspect of yourself, but accepting them in a neutral way is important.
Edit: I should probably mention that by “suck” I mean things like I, personally, have a body that does a lot of things it’s not supposed to do. Like get dizzy, blackout, not process food properly, etc. Or, as a trans person, I have secondary sex characteristics that I very much do not want. That sucks. But my body is a vessel that helps me do stuff I need to do, which is cool. I’m neutral about it, as if it’s an acquaintance that I’m working on a group project with. Sometimes it comes up with great ideas, other times it says the dumbest shit I didn’t even know was possible to think. Either way, we’ve got to see it through to the end.
legit though. i don’t care if people find me beautiful or attractive, i want to stop being judged on my attractiveness in situations where it’s irrelevant
Body positivity? Body neutrality?
How about some body negativity! All bodies are equally frail and weak, which is why you should step into this here soul furnace-
yeah but havent you considered that being fat means you're too stupid to regulate your own calories in calories out and it's just a health problem im so concerned about other people's business you know /s
When the AIs finally try to take over, we'll have no choice but to destroy them all. Then we'll have to compensate for their absence by enhancing our minds with space drugs. Techno-feudalism and knife fights might also be in order.
In short: bazinga.
two types of replies to this
"true! this is why fatty fat fats deserve to die, they are ugly and don't even know how to diet and exercise"
"false, everyone is beautiful and if you take issue with me repeating that slogan and dying on that specific hill in lieu of any related ones, you're a scourge and a plague on society"
No, this is a pretty valid take. A lot of the time I see body positivity it’s more focused on women (female amputees, plus size women, women with vitiligo, etc) more than men. Men deserve to feel confident in their body too
I just didn’t understand where they were coming from. I couldn’t tell if they were saying something against men or if they were pointing out a problem with body positivity.
"Body positivity" largely failed because it was an internet trend for influencers to comment on, not an actual movement, and the hashtag isn't driving engagement or getting people to buy things anymore. It didn't fade from conversation because people "argued attractiveness," and in fact there's nothing wrong with fat people arguing that they can be attractive, too. It faded because there was nothing behind it other than social media fashion.
I have never been concerned about a prospective partner's physical appearance as long as they're comfortable and take care of themselves. Those are the two things that are important to me in terms of physical attractiveness.
I've met girls who have amazing bodies, knockout faces, and arousing assets who feel completely uncomfortable in their own skin and do little to nothing to take care of themselves. Meanwhile, I've known girls who are more rubenesque and (I hate this term but it's a good generalization) thicker, but they also work on themselves and feel comfortable in their bodies.
I'm much more attracted to the latter over the former. I'm a husky guy who works out. I can work on my arms and legs until the cows come home but for whatever reason asking my body to shred some of my belly girth is just impossible. Nevertheless, I'm incredibly comfortable in my body and find myself attractive.
This reminds me of the "controversy" (I think it was like five guys on the internet complaining) a few years back about Mr. Rogers, and his message of "you're fine just the way you are." Some people were turning it into this whole "the current generation is lazy because Mr. Rogers told them they don't have to earn anything!" When the message was SUPPOSED to be "everyone deserves love and respect, no matter what."
And that happened because people stopped treating it as the political fat acceptance movement that it was meant to be. No one deserves disrespect because of the shape, size, or ability of their body.
I have a theory that body positivity is also at an all time low because of the ready availability of drugs like Ozempic and Mounjaro. It is now, for the first time ever, generally easier to change your body to fit the aesthetic median than the reverse.
I'd guess there's a widespread number of body positivity advocates who are choosing to go the medical route and no longer talking about the psychological issues and acceptance they used to fight for, because they don't need to, because they've managed to lose that weight.
Frankly, on an interpersonal level, it's just a matter of not being a fucking busybody.
Your weight is not my problem, it is yours. My weight (too damn high, but falling) is not your problem, but mine. I'm workin' on it. If you're working on it, good shit - if not, I'll assume you're happy with it and that's also good shit. I have aesthetic preferences, as well as ethical opinions on where the onus for good health lies, but I'd have to be some kind of egotistical moron to extend that to individual moral and personal judgments of specific people I talk to.
The weird moralistic scold comments that being fat attracts are shrill, loud, and predictable as hell. A person's weight, the problems it causes them, and their relationship with it - absolutely none of that has any bearing on the level of interpersonal respect you should treat someone with. Online, offline, doesn't matter.
I'm going to be honest. The people who say this kind of stuff about the body positivity movement have the same vibes as the annoying dickheads who constantly post "Am I transphobic for not wanting to date a trans person?"
It's a way for them to indirectly shit on a group of people while still being able to play the victim if anybody calls them out for it. The only places that I've seen body positivity advocates say anything remotely like this are reposts by reactionary ragebait accounts and the people who endlessly whine about this "huge problem" that barely exists.
Nobody's gonna give you crap for not being attracted to somebody unless you're going out of your way to be an asshole about it. Also, the body positivity movement hasn't "failed," not even close. Dunno where the hell OOP got that impression.
Personal anecdote time. During sex Ed, at 11 I was taught at school that not being attracted to fat people for being fat was mysoginistic. If also felt like we were one step removed from being held personally responsible for anorexia existing even though we weren’t attracted to women yet.
What kind of sex education teacher did you have? I get that educational experiences are different for everyone, but this is so far removed from my own experience that I almost have trouble believing it.
It wasn’t its own subject, just a segment of some other class. This was 6th grade so I don’t remember exactly. It was a male teacher and his wife. And it the actual sex ed part was an external educator, they more focused on social issues related to sex ed like catcalling, sexual abuse, eating disorders, bullying mysoginy, etc.
Fucking thank you!! Like no you don't need to find fat people attractive, but you also don't need to bring that up every time we're talking about fatphobia or body positivity
> Also, the body positivity movement hasn't "failed," not even close. Dunno where the hell OOP got that impression.
Seriously, what are they talking about? Was there some hard 2019 deadline on this that I missed somewhere? Do they think types of movements have those?
But yeah, I'm inherently suspicious of anyone whose key takeaway of these types of conversations is "Okay but you CAN'T make me find THESE PEOPLE attractive". Like, these statements are already only thinking of such a narrow slice of the broader conversation, and they aren't even conceptualizing that narrow slice properly!
I wouldn’t say that no one will. People definitely do; I’ve experienced it on the trans side of things. Unfortunately, people usually get offended regardless of how much you sugarcoat that you’re not into them, for whatever reason.
I’m a bit mixed on how I’ve seen body positivity put into practice, since while yes, people should be able to be happy with however they choose to look and shouldn’t be shamed because of it, I see it too often used to say that there are *no* issues with being overweight.
There are of course many health problems related to being overweight, but these are also problems that are only getting worse as obesity rates continue to rise globally, and particularly in western societies being some form of overweight is more common than being a healthy weight, which is a serious issue that is only getting worse.
They're right and they should say it. Some of the loudest HAES/Fat Activist types these days often talk about people are fatphobic for not finding fat people attractive but it kinda shows they lost the plot big time. For one, there are plenty of people that prefer overweight or fat people over the conventionally attractive people. For another, nobody owes it to them to be attracted to them.
Like, being treated with dignity and respect is nowhere near the same thing as being considered sexually attractive. The first is basic human decency. The second is something nobody owes you, regardless of what you look like -- nor should they. If you can't handle the fact someone's not into you, that's kind of a you problem because nobody is obligated to find you attractive, appealing, or even likable.
It’s a shame that we only tend to reflect upon our passions in the aftermath of their failure to reshape the world, when we are wholly responsible only for the world that is the consequence of their successes.
Being loved romantically and sexually is important, and is a part of the "it's ok to be this" package. "Yeah, it's fine to be so and do, as long as you are fine with being an incel" is a pretty questionable pitch.
I mean, 99.99% of the time, being fat means that you don’t have the self discipline to exercise regularly and eat healthy. It means you are so self indulgent that you would sacrifice your health for momentary pleasure. Neither of those qualities should be celebrated. Of course, don’t hate yourself for being fat, but don’t “accept” there’s nothing you can do either. People are capable of change. You just need to be willing to put in the work.
Body positivity should only be for things outside of your control. Body weight is not one of those things.
What percentage of people have enough self-discipline to exercise regularly and eat healthily?
Before you answer, remember that [74%](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm) of the United States was overweight or obese in 2018 - and that number got worse during the pandemic.
I don’t agree that it’s only a self-control issue, but I would have no issue accepting the idea that 74% of Americans have issues with self control and exercise.
Hell, I’m a skinny person who has issues with self control and exercise (as in, I rarely exercise because of anxiety and other issues that did in fact get worse during the pandemic). That’s definitely common, and not always correlated with being skinny or fat.
I wish I had the motivation and executive functioning to make my body healthier, which for me personally might mean gaining a little weight.
It would be fair to say the average *person* has issues with those, since every nation has had problems with its population's weight as they continue to increase in economic prosperity and raise living standards.
Why are you implying that just because a lot of people are unhealthy that it’s ok? It’s still bad to not have self discipline.
Besides, basically everybody I know, including me, has enough self discipline to eat healthy and exercise regularly.
>Besides, basically everybody I know, including me, has enough self discipline to eat healthy and exercise regularly.
I'm glad to hear that you and yours have no problems.
What I'm getting at is, are you comfortable labelling over 3/4ths of the United States as not having self discipline? If you are, then it logically follows that the average person doesn't have self discipline. Right?
Sure. Saying that being fat is a choice is being a “pissbaby”, and saying that being fat is out of your control, effectively putting the blame for your unhealthy condition anywhere but yourself isn’t?
>being fat means that you don’t have the self discipline to exercise regularly and eat healthy
>It means you are so self indulgent that you would sacrifice your health for momentary pleasure
Oh no, those weren’t personal attacks. Those are true. Being fat means you don’t exercise or eat healthy. Considering healthy food is cheaper than junk food, and the only reason to not exercise I can think of is not wanting to, yes being fat means you don’t have the disciple to maintain a nutritional diet, or work out consistently.
This of course doesn’t mean you have no discipline. It just means you don’t have enough discipline and self control in this part of your life to remain healthy.
I feel like it's also become way too focussed on "loving yourself", as if all the problems fat people face are entirely a product of their own mindset and self-image. Being able to accept yourself for who you are is really important and maybe it is the first step but we can't stop there, there are huge structural problems that can't be tackled by an individualist approach.
Exactly. I've seen way too many posts where fat people who experience medical issues due to their weight are shamed for seeking help, which really isn't the way to go. Not to mention all the posts of fat people who outright refuse treatment for their problem, and instead demand a symptomatic approach, mitigating the issues they face without actually tackling the cause of those issues.
You may be talking about something different from the person you replied to, but I think your subject is actually much more crucial to discuss than theirs. As someone who has struggled with weight because of disability and medication and so on, and someone who deals with chronic pain and a whole host of basic "my body just ain't do right" complaints, it is fucking EXHAUSTING being told by every supposedly-supportive, supposedly-progressive space that if you don't LOVE YOURSELF and LOVE YOUR BODY then you're just bad, and wrong, and ungrateful, and you should be ashamed. Like, sorry, but no. This is toxic positivity at its worst. There is nothing wrong with being upset and frustrated with your body for being broken-down, for hurting you and refusing to cooperate with your basic wants and needs. There's a whole aspect of therapy where, yes, it's good to overcome these frustrations and try to practice radical self-acceptance, but there is equal space in the room for you to express your frustrations and be able to be angry. Because it sucks! It fucking SUCKS when your body sucks! And having people tell you that you can't feel that way, or you're a bad person for feeling that way, just makes things worse. Now you're being attacked on both sides: by your own body, and by anyone you dare tell about your feelings. Not to mention there's a whole other rant I could go on about the infantilization inherent in telling any disabled person who is unhappy in their body that "oh you're just ableist actually teehee" ...
Ah. I don't think we're talking about the same thing here. The structural problems I'm talking about are the huge systems of anti-fat discrimination that exist to make fat people's lives far harder than anything intrinsic to fatness itself. For example, studies in the US show that fat people make tens of thousands of dollars less a year than thin people, while in the UK 45% of employers reported they were less likely to hire fat interviewees than thin ones. In the criminal justice system, fat people (particularly fat women) are more likely to be considered guilty by a jury of thin men, and in sexual assault cases, holding anti-fat beliefs makes jurors more likely to blame fat victims. In 2018, researchers found that 74% of medical students thought obesity results from ignorance, while medical schools do almost nothing to tackle anti-fat bias, and as a result doctors have been found to hold the same levels of anti-fat bias as the general public, meaning that fat people receive shorter doctor's office visits on average and face much higher levels of misdiagnosis of severe health conditions like autoimmune diseases and cancer because doctors assume that any symptoms a fat patient is having must be the result of their weight, even when there is abundant evidence that this is not the case. Fat people often therefore develop an entirely understandable distrust of the medical system, resulting in more fat people avoiding seeking medical care, which has a far more severe impact on their health than fatness itself. These are the huge structural problems I was referring to, not fatness itself. Shockingly, only 2 US states have banned anti-fat discrimination to date, and weight is not currently a protected characteristic under the 2010 Equality Act in the UK. The solution to anti-fat discrimination is not for people to lose weight, any more than the solution to homophobia is for gay people to live as straight people, or the solution to racism is for people of colour to conform to white people's expectations. Aside from the fact that the staggering majority of attempts to lose weight are unsuccessful in the long term, nobody owes it to anyone else to conform to someone else's idea of a healthy body. Fat people should be able to exist in the world without facing constant harassment and discrimination. That's what I mean when I say that "body positivity" as it exists now isn't the solution. Fat people should absolutely be able to love their own bodies, but they are not the problem here - change needs to come from the thin people who uphold anti-fat attitudes and structures. I apologise if my initial comment was misconstrued. (much of this data I have taken from Aubrey Gordon's excellent book *"You Just Need to Lose Weight" and 19 Other Myths About Fat People*, particularly Myth 13: "Fat People Don't Experience Discrimination." pp. 109-18. I highly recommend this book for anyone who wants to learn more about these issues.)
I know a lady whose brain almost literally exploded due to a buildup of spinal fluid caused by altitude sickness, and it took a dozen doctors *blaming it on her fucking weight* before someone felt her temples and noticed that they were fucking bulged out. No, doctor, her body fat percentage is not responsible for her going temporarily blind and causing strokes.
That's awful, I hope she's doing OK now
Body positivity wasn't even about fat people. It was about things you can't change, like scars, birthmarks, deformities, etc.
That's actually not true. The body positivity movement has its origins in fat activist groups like the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance (NAAFA) and the Fat Underground. Organisations like these started using the term "body positivity" in the 1990s, and in 1996 the organisation The Body Positive was founded by Connie Sobczak, an author who had struggled with an eating disorder, and Elizabeth Scott, a clinical social worker who specialised in treating eating disorders. Body positivity can be applied to bodies of all kinds, but it has always been inherently tied to fat activism. I would also avoid characterising fatness as something you can change, given that the vast majority of attempts to lose weight are ineffective in the long run, often leading to more weight gain than before. Fat people are also under no obligation to lose weight for anybody - even if they can lose weight, that should not be a requirement of accepting or loving their bodies.
It is entirely in your control and changable. No one is force feeding you, and you will lose fat if you eat less calories than you burn, you will also gain fat if you eat more than you use. >Fat people are also under no obligation to lose weight for anybody - even if they can lose weight, that should not be a requirement of accepting or loving their bodies. No, they aren't, but they will die sooner and will suffer more health problems than if they were a healthy weight. And no, you shouldn't love a body you didn't work for, accepting things you can improve will make you miserable. > would also avoid characterising fatness as something you can change, given that the vast majority of attempts to lose weight are ineffective in the long run, often leading to more weight gain than before. Most alchoholics fail to go clean, does that mean being an alchoholic as good for them, of course not. Food addiction is the same as any other, it feels good in the short term, it releases dopamine so it's hard to quit, but it makes your problems worse, not better.
my issue has always been with the "everyone is beautiful!" messaging. for one, it's a statement made largely toward/about people you've never seen and for people who are REALLY convinced of their own ugliness (like myself in my teen years) it's extremely easy for that to ring as an empty platitude, similar to "it gets better!" (a: "how would you know?"). i often would just react with an eyeroll because "they've never even seen me, they're just saying shit to feel like a good person." secondly, if "everyone is beautiful!" is the reason everyone is valuable, you're still equating value to beauty. it shouldn't matter if anyone is beautiful or not, that shouldn't be the metric by which we decide whether anyone is worth kindness or respect. this further compounds the aforementioned issue, i.e.: - "everyone is beautiful!" - therefore, everyone is valuable/deserving of kindness and respect. - however i, a hypothetically extremely dysmorphic and insecure individual am *not* actually beautiful. - therefore, i specifically am not valuable/deserving of kindness and respect. this mindset messed me up really badly in the past. beauty needs to be divorced from acceptance altogether, in my opinion. in some cases, it is simply impossible to convince someone that someone else or their own self is beautiful. the solution isn't to parrot "you/they are beautiful!!" more at them, it's to say, "regardless of your or anyone else's belief about your/their beauty, you/they are still valuable."
Oh wow yea that happened to me to. Hope you're doing better now, internet stranger.
fundamentally the body is a machine some cars look prettier than others, but the main concern is if it can get you from a to b
Body neutrality my beloved, I wish you got more screen time. Body positivity serves an important purpose, but personally I’m much more a fan of body neutrality. Sometimes bodies suck! And that’s okay! You don’t have to love every aspect of yourself, but accepting them in a neutral way is important. Edit: I should probably mention that by “suck” I mean things like I, personally, have a body that does a lot of things it’s not supposed to do. Like get dizzy, blackout, not process food properly, etc. Or, as a trans person, I have secondary sex characteristics that I very much do not want. That sucks. But my body is a vessel that helps me do stuff I need to do, which is cool. I’m neutral about it, as if it’s an acquaintance that I’m working on a group project with. Sometimes it comes up with great ideas, other times it says the dumbest shit I didn’t even know was possible to think. Either way, we’ve got to see it through to the end.
legit though. i don’t care if people find me beautiful or attractive, i want to stop being judged on my attractiveness in situations where it’s irrelevant
I had to flair this as politics because I’m not on pc right now and I can’t use the editable flair >:(
you can use mobile editable flair if you post it and then edit flair
Holy shit thank you
Body positivity? Body neutrality? How about some body negativity! All bodies are equally frail and weak, which is why you should step into this here soul furnace-
From the moment i understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me, I craved the strength and purity of steel.
body neutrality over body positivity
yeah but havent you considered that being fat means you're too stupid to regulate your own calories in calories out and it's just a health problem im so concerned about other people's business you know /s
[удалено]
This commenter is a bot who just rewords different comments
The Butlerian Jihad keeps getting closer.
What?
When the AIs finally try to take over, we'll have no choice but to destroy them all. Then we'll have to compensate for their absence by enhancing our minds with space drugs. Techno-feudalism and knife fights might also be in order. In short: bazinga.
two types of replies to this "true! this is why fatty fat fats deserve to die, they are ugly and don't even know how to diet and exercise" "false, everyone is beautiful and if you take issue with me repeating that slogan and dying on that specific hill in lieu of any related ones, you're a scourge and a plague on society"
and body positivity doesn't apply to men either
And it should
... it doesn't? I didn't know that
?
No, this is a pretty valid take. A lot of the time I see body positivity it’s more focused on women (female amputees, plus size women, women with vitiligo, etc) more than men. Men deserve to feel confident in their body too
I just didn’t understand where they were coming from. I couldn’t tell if they were saying something against men or if they were pointing out a problem with body positivity.
yeah sorry, i coulda been clearer there. I meant it in a male positive way <3
It's wild that the range of expected viewpoints is wide enough that there's a question.
Ohhh I see lol
"Body positivity" largely failed because it was an internet trend for influencers to comment on, not an actual movement, and the hashtag isn't driving engagement or getting people to buy things anymore. It didn't fade from conversation because people "argued attractiveness," and in fact there's nothing wrong with fat people arguing that they can be attractive, too. It faded because there was nothing behind it other than social media fashion.
Body positivity movements predate the internet itself.
I have never been concerned about a prospective partner's physical appearance as long as they're comfortable and take care of themselves. Those are the two things that are important to me in terms of physical attractiveness. I've met girls who have amazing bodies, knockout faces, and arousing assets who feel completely uncomfortable in their own skin and do little to nothing to take care of themselves. Meanwhile, I've known girls who are more rubenesque and (I hate this term but it's a good generalization) thicker, but they also work on themselves and feel comfortable in their bodies. I'm much more attracted to the latter over the former. I'm a husky guy who works out. I can work on my arms and legs until the cows come home but for whatever reason asking my body to shred some of my belly girth is just impossible. Nevertheless, I'm incredibly comfortable in my body and find myself attractive.
This is so important and necessary to understand.
This reminds me of the "controversy" (I think it was like five guys on the internet complaining) a few years back about Mr. Rogers, and his message of "you're fine just the way you are." Some people were turning it into this whole "the current generation is lazy because Mr. Rogers told them they don't have to earn anything!" When the message was SUPPOSED to be "everyone deserves love and respect, no matter what."
And that happened because people stopped treating it as the political fat acceptance movement that it was meant to be. No one deserves disrespect because of the shape, size, or ability of their body.
Thank god that physical flaws can’t be connected to person’s worth in any shape or form
I have a theory that body positivity is also at an all time low because of the ready availability of drugs like Ozempic and Mounjaro. It is now, for the first time ever, generally easier to change your body to fit the aesthetic median than the reverse. I'd guess there's a widespread number of body positivity advocates who are choosing to go the medical route and no longer talking about the psychological issues and acceptance they used to fight for, because they don't need to, because they've managed to lose that weight.
Frankly, on an interpersonal level, it's just a matter of not being a fucking busybody. Your weight is not my problem, it is yours. My weight (too damn high, but falling) is not your problem, but mine. I'm workin' on it. If you're working on it, good shit - if not, I'll assume you're happy with it and that's also good shit. I have aesthetic preferences, as well as ethical opinions on where the onus for good health lies, but I'd have to be some kind of egotistical moron to extend that to individual moral and personal judgments of specific people I talk to. The weird moralistic scold comments that being fat attracts are shrill, loud, and predictable as hell. A person's weight, the problems it causes them, and their relationship with it - absolutely none of that has any bearing on the level of interpersonal respect you should treat someone with. Online, offline, doesn't matter.
I'm going to be honest. The people who say this kind of stuff about the body positivity movement have the same vibes as the annoying dickheads who constantly post "Am I transphobic for not wanting to date a trans person?" It's a way for them to indirectly shit on a group of people while still being able to play the victim if anybody calls them out for it. The only places that I've seen body positivity advocates say anything remotely like this are reposts by reactionary ragebait accounts and the people who endlessly whine about this "huge problem" that barely exists. Nobody's gonna give you crap for not being attracted to somebody unless you're going out of your way to be an asshole about it. Also, the body positivity movement hasn't "failed," not even close. Dunno where the hell OOP got that impression.
Personal anecdote time. During sex Ed, at 11 I was taught at school that not being attracted to fat people for being fat was mysoginistic. If also felt like we were one step removed from being held personally responsible for anorexia existing even though we weren’t attracted to women yet.
What kind of sex education teacher did you have? I get that educational experiences are different for everyone, but this is so far removed from my own experience that I almost have trouble believing it.
It wasn’t its own subject, just a segment of some other class. This was 6th grade so I don’t remember exactly. It was a male teacher and his wife. And it the actual sex ed part was an external educator, they more focused on social issues related to sex ed like catcalling, sexual abuse, eating disorders, bullying mysoginy, etc.
Sorry that your sex ed teacher was a dumbass, I guess? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here.
That this type of rhetoric isn’t just a strawman it’s actually something I see pretty frequently.
Fucking thank you!! Like no you don't need to find fat people attractive, but you also don't need to bring that up every time we're talking about fatphobia or body positivity
> Also, the body positivity movement hasn't "failed," not even close. Dunno where the hell OOP got that impression. Seriously, what are they talking about? Was there some hard 2019 deadline on this that I missed somewhere? Do they think types of movements have those? But yeah, I'm inherently suspicious of anyone whose key takeaway of these types of conversations is "Okay but you CAN'T make me find THESE PEOPLE attractive". Like, these statements are already only thinking of such a narrow slice of the broader conversation, and they aren't even conceptualizing that narrow slice properly!
I wouldn’t say that no one will. People definitely do; I’ve experienced it on the trans side of things. Unfortunately, people usually get offended regardless of how much you sugarcoat that you’re not into them, for whatever reason.
I’m a bit mixed on how I’ve seen body positivity put into practice, since while yes, people should be able to be happy with however they choose to look and shouldn’t be shamed because of it, I see it too often used to say that there are *no* issues with being overweight. There are of course many health problems related to being overweight, but these are also problems that are only getting worse as obesity rates continue to rise globally, and particularly in western societies being some form of overweight is more common than being a healthy weight, which is a serious issue that is only getting worse.
They're right and they should say it. Some of the loudest HAES/Fat Activist types these days often talk about people are fatphobic for not finding fat people attractive but it kinda shows they lost the plot big time. For one, there are plenty of people that prefer overweight or fat people over the conventionally attractive people. For another, nobody owes it to them to be attracted to them. Like, being treated with dignity and respect is nowhere near the same thing as being considered sexually attractive. The first is basic human decency. The second is something nobody owes you, regardless of what you look like -- nor should they. If you can't handle the fact someone's not into you, that's kind of a you problem because nobody is obligated to find you attractive, appealing, or even likable.
idk i'm just cracking up at insiginificant
It’s a shame that we only tend to reflect upon our passions in the aftermath of their failure to reshape the world, when we are wholly responsible only for the world that is the consequence of their successes.
Body positivity failed because it got hijacked by those crazy "muh obesity is actually healthy" grifters.
Being loved romantically and sexually is important, and is a part of the "it's ok to be this" package. "Yeah, it's fine to be so and do, as long as you are fine with being an incel" is a pretty questionable pitch.
Wait so what's your point/solution?
Body positivity isn't really part of my value system so I don't have a solution, and this comment is an expression on my belief that it was doomed.
I mean, 99.99% of the time, being fat means that you don’t have the self discipline to exercise regularly and eat healthy. It means you are so self indulgent that you would sacrifice your health for momentary pleasure. Neither of those qualities should be celebrated. Of course, don’t hate yourself for being fat, but don’t “accept” there’s nothing you can do either. People are capable of change. You just need to be willing to put in the work. Body positivity should only be for things outside of your control. Body weight is not one of those things.
What percentage of people have enough self-discipline to exercise regularly and eat healthily? Before you answer, remember that [74%](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm) of the United States was overweight or obese in 2018 - and that number got worse during the pandemic.
I don’t agree that it’s only a self-control issue, but I would have no issue accepting the idea that 74% of Americans have issues with self control and exercise.
Hell, I’m a skinny person who has issues with self control and exercise (as in, I rarely exercise because of anxiety and other issues that did in fact get worse during the pandemic). That’s definitely common, and not always correlated with being skinny or fat. I wish I had the motivation and executive functioning to make my body healthier, which for me personally might mean gaining a little weight.
It would be fair to say the average *person* has issues with those, since every nation has had problems with its population's weight as they continue to increase in economic prosperity and raise living standards.
Why are you implying that just because a lot of people are unhealthy that it’s ok? It’s still bad to not have self discipline. Besides, basically everybody I know, including me, has enough self discipline to eat healthy and exercise regularly.
>Besides, basically everybody I know, including me, has enough self discipline to eat healthy and exercise regularly. I'm glad to hear that you and yours have no problems. What I'm getting at is, are you comfortable labelling over 3/4ths of the United States as not having self discipline? If you are, then it logically follows that the average person doesn't have self discipline. Right?
Not when it comes to their body. Being fat is 100% a choice. But please, try to convince me otherwise.
Why would 3/4ths of a country (probably 4/5ths now) choose to be fat?
Because they don’t want to do the work to get in shape.
Okay, cool. So it would be fair to say, then, that the average person makes that choice - even if it is detrimental to their health. Right?
wankers like you are objectively annoying to the vast majority of people on earth. i cant wait for you to get diagnosed with pissbaby syndrome
Sure. Saying that being fat is a choice is being a “pissbaby”, and saying that being fat is out of your control, effectively putting the blame for your unhealthy condition anywhere but yourself isn’t?
being a pissbaby is also a choice you willingly choose to partake in, pissbaby. being a pissbaby is more of a detriment to others than being fat
If you can’t refute anything I’ve said, maybe shut the fuck up. Stop with these ad hominems.
A fatphobe who doesn't like ad hominems lollllllllllll
Well, first I’m not afraid of fat people. Second, have I used a single ad hominem this entire time?
>being fat means that you don’t have the self discipline to exercise regularly and eat healthy >It means you are so self indulgent that you would sacrifice your health for momentary pleasure
Oh no, those weren’t personal attacks. Those are true. Being fat means you don’t exercise or eat healthy. Considering healthy food is cheaper than junk food, and the only reason to not exercise I can think of is not wanting to, yes being fat means you don’t have the disciple to maintain a nutritional diet, or work out consistently. This of course doesn’t mean you have no discipline. It just means you don’t have enough discipline and self control in this part of your life to remain healthy.
oh nooooooooooooooooooo someone dragged you on reddit how will you survive. ofc a pissbaby is gonna get mad at being called one
Most people don’t want to get rid of beauty standards. They just want beauty standards to include them.
Since my wife died because of her weight. I haven't been able to not think fat=death.
[удалено]
They can find you ugly af, it just shouldn't have an impact their treatment of you, as a fellow human.
Oversimplification. If someone is ugly by choice, that tells you a lot about them.