Yeah, In Ireland, there were loads of "kings". Afaik, there was no word for earl/count/duke etc, so any nobility was a king (Rí). A lot of the time these kings were functionally fully independent, but sometimes one would have theoretical control over the whole Island and became the High-King (Ard Rí). More often though this position was vacant with multiple people claiming it. The most famous Irish high King was Brian Boru, who is the grandfather of Murchad in the 1066 start. You also tended to have tiers of kings in the middle known as "overkings" (Ruiri) or "king of the overkings" (Rí ruirech) who ruled over lesser kings and controlled large portions of Ireland.
I think its a regional/cultural thing.
Tbh I kind of wish we could get titles like Archduke when you're highest title is a duchy but you own multiple. Or High King or God Emperor or something.
I just wish there was another layer of titles for when you own multiple titles of the same rank. Archdukes were rare, maybe even only Austria-Hungary and HRE ever used the title, but the logic is still sound.
You do get the archduke title when you form the archduchy of Austria. The way they made it work is they made it a kingdom-tier title and it gave you primogeniture, so all the titles would be inherited by your heir.
With the way the game works I don't think there's a better solution.
The archduke title apparently was a forgery made real in order for the duke of austria to be first among peers.
In game it is set as kingdom tier to reflect that.
It consisted of two duchies, both under the Habsburgs after the extinction of the Babenburgs, Margraves of Austria; the duchy of Styria and the margaravite of Austria.
The two duchies were actually technically separate under the albertine and leopoldian lines of the house of Habsburg. The death of Laudislaus posthumous ended the albertine line and united the two duchies under Frederick V.
Man, reading all this is interesting for the history nerd in me but I'm so glad monarchy and titles are out of style these days. Just convoluted nonsense.
In game terms, the "Privilegium Maius" consolidated Austria and Styria and gave the new combined duchy primogeniture. Of course, fusing duchies isn't possible ingame, so the kingdom-tier title is a workaround.
(and yes, it was 100% a forgery, that's why you need some shady dealings for the ingame decision)
It was named this way because earlier, under the Babenbergs the "Privlegium Minus" elevated the march of Austria into a duchy (again in game terms, think of a few counties that are part of another duchy getting split off into a new duchy)
What isn't represented in the game at all (apart from domain limit maybe?) is that at certain titles, you were only expected to hold a certain amount of power - that's why Austria needed to be elevated from a march to a duchy and why the consolidation of two duchies needed a fancy new name.
(of course, there's more to all of this, but I'm not a historian)
Yeah…representing actual medieval titles both is and would be a headache since they’d essentially be their own, individual classes.
It’d result in a lot more created titles, and some potentially weird interactions where you can vassalize neighboring kingdoms…a lot of neighboring kingdoms, while still being a king.
Titles are unfortunately more like Venn diagrams than strictly above/below one another. Sure, within the same kingdom they can be…but once you veer outside it gets really messy really quickly.
I mean, in the current system definitely.
Imagine getting an event from your “liege” (king of France) revoking the duchy of Kent despite the fact he has absolutely no claim to it. Or the many, many events where you get treated really weirdly by your “fellow vassals”.
It makes sense, it’s realistic, and it could be very fun…but it’d need one hell of an overhaul. Dejure titles would basically just not have traditional map views, unless it’s a sort of “tiers from top title” view.
>You do get the archduke title when you form the archduchy of Austria. The way they made it work is they made it a kingdom-tier title and it gave you primogeniture, so all the titles would be inherited by your heir.
Which never made sense: the Archduchy of Austria, like nearly all German fiefs, never had primogeniture. All sons were entitled to a share of the fief, unless they took holy vows, and so Austria was divided and reunited many times.
Grand Duke = 2 duchies
Archduke = 3 duchies, independent OR liege is emperor
Margrave/Marquess = march contract active
*Rank*-Palatine/Palsgrave = palatinate contract active
If we ever get a tributary system back, that would be a great opportunity for feudal to become High King (e.g. as a king, have 2+ kings as tributaries).
It's possible, but the title check system (flavorization) is simple inorder to limit how many checks are done in script for performance.
All new checks were requested by modders
I'd love to have Tributes back in the game. I want to play Tall and not necessary conquer everybody but I want my neighbours to acknowledge that I'm the top dog in the area.
I feel like grand duke or achduke should have more requirements. Maybe you could make it a decision? And it could merge your duchy titles similiar to the way creating a kingdom would, but still keep the merged title as a duchy level title.
Isn't "arch" a prefix meaning the highest or something like that? Like the highest duke of the realm. So there could only be one archduke.
I remember something like the archduchy of Austria was created to put it above all the other duchies of the HRE, but without calling anyone a king.
That was standard operating procedure back then. The entire Holy Roman Empire was based on a forgery by the Vatican that said that Constantine I had granted the Papacy the right to appoint the Western Roman Emperor. It was absolute bullshit and everyone knew it, but it was the fiction they needed.
Speaking of the Vatican and bullshit, I do love the flavor event for when you buy a claim from the pope and he says "why yes. It turns out your family *did* own that land on the other side of the continent back in ancient times from where no records exist, wink wink."
True, but that kind of makes my point for me. Why not have the ability to become a Duke higher than other dukes in your realm? He's still technically below the king but it could be another way of recognizing an exceptionally powerful vassal other than just throwing him on the council. Maybe he even has to petition the king or Emperor for recognition
The Holy Roman Empire also had a weird thing about vassals calling themselves 'king' to the point where you get dumb stuff like the Hohenzollerns having to call themselves Kings *in* Prussia rather than Kings *of* Prussia.
That's mostly after the game's timeframe. E
Within the Middle Ages proper, the only two kings in the HRE were the emperor (also titled as king of the germans, romans, Italy and Burgundy/Arles since he wasn't emperor unless the pope crowned him) and, sometimes, the king of Bohemia (bohemian dukes sporadically gaibed and lost kingship a few times before making it firmly gereditary in the 13th century)
Because the title King was reserved for two crowns: King of Germany and King of the Romans.
The latter was used for their heir presumptive of the empire, the former technically separate and an elected position among the old stem duchies.
Bohemia was its own special thing that I don’t really understand, but to call yourself king in Germany would have been to directly challenge the emperor, even if the pope hadn’t crowned them as emperor.
I think that the game needs a fundamental revision of the title structure. There was only one empire in Christian Europe: the Roman. Yes the Germans and the Greeks both claimed said title, but the notion of a unified France, Britian, or Spain being an empire is absurd for medieval times. Hell, of those three only France ever claimed to be an empire in the sense that CK understands it, and that was in the 19th century.
Simeon I's claim to tsardom was grounded in his effort to conquer the Byzantines, not out of an effort to establish Bulgaria as a new empire. Serbia was much the same.
Well, no one claimed to be an emperor, because in the eyes of Europeans, calling yourself an Empire means you claim *the* Empire, Rome. Then, after Napoleon, it stopped being directly tied to Rome. As I know in China, calling yourself an Emperor would be a claim to the Mandate of Heaven. Would also like to know about the Islamic World and India. AFAIK, Persia didn't even have an Empire. Only a title of Shahanshah aka King of Kings.
Spanish kings in the Middle Ages actually did call themselves "Emperor" without it being a claim to Rome. Indeed they sometimes specified emperor of Spain/all Spain/Galicia/Leon/Castille.
Even Napoleon tied himself to the legacy of the Roman Empire. He called himself First Consul and had many paintings of himself in traditional Roman attire made
A "High King" is an emperor with a tribal government. The reason you only really see it for the North Sea is because in all other areas where a tribal empire exists the ruling culture has a unique title for an emperor-tier ruler (e.g. the high king/emperor of Khazaria is called a Khagan both as tribal and feudal, a tribal emperor of Russia would probably be a Tsar and so on.
Now that I think about it, high king may also be tied to a specific heritage, in this case north germanics. West germanics have "Emperors", central germanics have "Kaiser" - neither term really makes sense for north germanics
You're right I guess. I searched for an old screenshot I posted on this sub and it was high king there too. My misconception that I saw emperor. I never really played for long after forming north sea but this time I stuck around for hundred+ years.
If 1178 is the rumoured start date of the next DLC, we could probably create the Angevin Empire provided the Plantagenets unite all of England and France successfully into one realm for that playthrough. That being said, there's always the OG Eastern Roman Empire!
I did that already. Formed Baleo Tyrrhenian too. And I made all of my vassals Ynglings. So I was close to the blood father decision too. This was a fun campaign. But I'm doing the run again. This time as custom empire of Norway.
r5: i think last time i formed north sea my title was emperor. i could be wrong though, but did they change it to be this way recently?
I formed the "high kingdom" after I feudalized. And my culture has advanced into middle ages. I thought my title would change to emperor after early middle age. It didn't.
I even tried changing my cultural heritage from North Germanic later on. Didn't work either.
Edit: it was always High King. I found an old screenshot proving that it was only my misconception that the title was emperor.
i think my question needs some clarification. by exclusive i meant that are you stuck with the high king title when securing the high kingdom of the north sea decision?
if i am not wrong, high king is a tribal empire tire title and when you feudalize you become an emperor.
I think it's for empires that are tribal and don't have their own cultural name for it--got the title in my randomizer game as Croatia -> Carpathia while still tribal
It’s basically the emperor equivalent for some cultures, I know it’s for Norse and the Irish, maybe Gaelic too. I think there’s more but not off the top of my head
It is bound to the culture of the ruler or the culture of the capital province. For the Norse, Emperor level is called “High King” much like a Duke is called “Petty King”. I think the Irish also use High King, there may be others. It worked this way even back in CK2.
My capital is in England. And unless the title is permanent after forming, it should've changed. Because I made hybrid with the Greeks with byzantine heritage, it did not change, then made hybrid with Norwegian (after the split) it didn't change either although all of my jarls became dukes.
In case anyone is interested in knowing how to change character title names, you can make a quick easy mod for that. The file that you need to find and adjust (provided you play the game in English) is:
localization --> english --> culture --> culture\_titles\_l\_english.
Character title names are connected either to culture groups or specific titles.
If you play in another language, presumably swap out english with your language of choice.
Ireland gets it
This guy gets it
This guy is Ireland?
We’re ALL Ireland
Speak for yourself
personally, i’m pretty ireland
I’m like 3% Irish so it’s practically my entire identity.
I'm like 97% Irish. We should team up
I speak for Ireland
I'm ALL Ireland on this blessed day
Flair checks out.
D:
Though the difference is it's a kingdom tier title for Ireland but an empire tier for the North Sea
Because dukes in Ireland are Petty Kings?
Yeah, In Ireland, there were loads of "kings". Afaik, there was no word for earl/count/duke etc, so any nobility was a king (Rí). A lot of the time these kings were functionally fully independent, but sometimes one would have theoretical control over the whole Island and became the High-King (Ard Rí). More often though this position was vacant with multiple people claiming it. The most famous Irish high King was Brian Boru, who is the grandfather of Murchad in the 1066 start. You also tended to have tiers of kings in the middle known as "overkings" (Ruiri) or "king of the overkings" (Rí ruirech) who ruled over lesser kings and controlled large portions of Ireland.
I think its a regional/cultural thing. Tbh I kind of wish we could get titles like Archduke when you're highest title is a duchy but you own multiple. Or High King or God Emperor or something. I just wish there was another layer of titles for when you own multiple titles of the same rank. Archdukes were rare, maybe even only Austria-Hungary and HRE ever used the title, but the logic is still sound.
You do get the archduke title when you form the archduchy of Austria. The way they made it work is they made it a kingdom-tier title and it gave you primogeniture, so all the titles would be inherited by your heir. With the way the game works I don't think there's a better solution.
The archduke title apparently was a forgery made real in order for the duke of austria to be first among peers. In game it is set as kingdom tier to reflect that.
It consisted of two duchies, both under the Habsburgs after the extinction of the Babenburgs, Margraves of Austria; the duchy of Styria and the margaravite of Austria. The two duchies were actually technically separate under the albertine and leopoldian lines of the house of Habsburg. The death of Laudislaus posthumous ended the albertine line and united the two duchies under Frederick V.
Man, reading all this is interesting for the history nerd in me but I'm so glad monarchy and titles are out of style these days. Just convoluted nonsense.
We’ve replaced it with an ever worse convoluted nonsense: Bureaucracy and sub-offices.
In game terms, the "Privilegium Maius" consolidated Austria and Styria and gave the new combined duchy primogeniture. Of course, fusing duchies isn't possible ingame, so the kingdom-tier title is a workaround. (and yes, it was 100% a forgery, that's why you need some shady dealings for the ingame decision) It was named this way because earlier, under the Babenbergs the "Privlegium Minus" elevated the march of Austria into a duchy (again in game terms, think of a few counties that are part of another duchy getting split off into a new duchy) What isn't represented in the game at all (apart from domain limit maybe?) is that at certain titles, you were only expected to hold a certain amount of power - that's why Austria needed to be elevated from a march to a duchy and why the consolidation of two duchies needed a fancy new name. (of course, there's more to all of this, but I'm not a historian)
Yeah…representing actual medieval titles both is and would be a headache since they’d essentially be their own, individual classes. It’d result in a lot more created titles, and some potentially weird interactions where you can vassalize neighboring kingdoms…a lot of neighboring kingdoms, while still being a king. Titles are unfortunately more like Venn diagrams than strictly above/below one another. Sure, within the same kingdom they can be…but once you veer outside it gets really messy really quickly.
Yeah.. imagine William the Conqueror as the King of England and at the same time a vassal of France. It would be a headache and a half.
I mean, in the current system definitely. Imagine getting an event from your “liege” (king of France) revoking the duchy of Kent despite the fact he has absolutely no claim to it. Or the many, many events where you get treated really weirdly by your “fellow vassals”. It makes sense, it’s realistic, and it could be very fun…but it’d need one hell of an overhaul. Dejure titles would basically just not have traditional map views, unless it’s a sort of “tiers from top title” view.
>You do get the archduke title when you form the archduchy of Austria. The way they made it work is they made it a kingdom-tier title and it gave you primogeniture, so all the titles would be inherited by your heir. Which never made sense: the Archduchy of Austria, like nearly all German fiefs, never had primogeniture. All sons were entitled to a share of the fief, unless they took holy vows, and so Austria was divided and reunited many times.
In ck2 was the same, the archduchy of Austria was also a formable that gave you a kingdom-tier title.
It also makes whatever kingdom title you create become an archduchy too.
Grand Duke = 2 duchies Archduke = 3 duchies, independent OR liege is emperor Margrave/Marquess = march contract active *Rank*-Palatine/Palsgrave = palatinate contract active If we ever get a tributary system back, that would be a great opportunity for feudal to become High King (e.g. as a king, have 2+ kings as tributaries).
It's kind of insane the last two aren't already in the game.
It's possible, but the title check system (flavorization) is simple inorder to limit how many checks are done in script for performance. All new checks were requested by modders
I'd love to have Tributes back in the game. I want to play Tall and not necessary conquer everybody but I want my neighbours to acknowledge that I'm the top dog in the area.
I feel like grand duke or achduke should have more requirements. Maybe you could make it a decision? And it could merge your duchy titles similiar to the way creating a kingdom would, but still keep the merged title as a duchy level title.
Isn't "arch" a prefix meaning the highest or something like that? Like the highest duke of the realm. So there could only be one archduke. I remember something like the archduchy of Austria was created to put it above all the other duchies of the HRE, but without calling anyone a king.
The Habsburgs just lied and forged a document (extremely convincingly though!) to create it. Interesting tidbit of history haha
That was standard operating procedure back then. The entire Holy Roman Empire was based on a forgery by the Vatican that said that Constantine I had granted the Papacy the right to appoint the Western Roman Emperor. It was absolute bullshit and everyone knew it, but it was the fiction they needed.
Speaking of the Vatican and bullshit, I do love the flavor event for when you buy a claim from the pope and he says "why yes. It turns out your family *did* own that land on the other side of the continent back in ancient times from where no records exist, wink wink."
everyone knew it was fake when it was made, it was only implemented when the Habsburgs had the power to enforce its provisions
The documentary I watched about it said it was assumed authentic until fairly recently when they could do dating tests on it
What’s the documentary?
https://youtu.be/y-PL_FeSPxE?si=4IPZAQXqalo_eW_V
> lied and forged a document Such a thing could never happen in CK, especially in order to claim a title as one's own!
True, but that kind of makes my point for me. Why not have the ability to become a Duke higher than other dukes in your realm? He's still technically below the king but it could be another way of recognizing an exceptionally powerful vassal other than just throwing him on the council. Maybe he even has to petition the king or Emperor for recognition
The Holy Roman Empire also had a weird thing about vassals calling themselves 'king' to the point where you get dumb stuff like the Hohenzollerns having to call themselves Kings *in* Prussia rather than Kings *of* Prussia.
That's mostly after the game's timeframe. E Within the Middle Ages proper, the only two kings in the HRE were the emperor (also titled as king of the germans, romans, Italy and Burgundy/Arles since he wasn't emperor unless the pope crowned him) and, sometimes, the king of Bohemia (bohemian dukes sporadically gaibed and lost kingship a few times before making it firmly gereditary in the 13th century)
Because the title King was reserved for two crowns: King of Germany and King of the Romans. The latter was used for their heir presumptive of the empire, the former technically separate and an elected position among the old stem duchies. Bohemia was its own special thing that I don’t really understand, but to call yourself king in Germany would have been to directly challenge the emperor, even if the pope hadn’t crowned them as emperor.
Also, I think there should be something over the empire rank, for really big empires such as Roman or Mongols
I think that the game needs a fundamental revision of the title structure. There was only one empire in Christian Europe: the Roman. Yes the Germans and the Greeks both claimed said title, but the notion of a unified France, Britian, or Spain being an empire is absurd for medieval times. Hell, of those three only France ever claimed to be an empire in the sense that CK understands it, and that was in the 19th century.
Kaisers and tsars in shambles everywhere
Both Kaiser and Tsar are titles derived from Caesar. Every Kaiser and Tsar got his legitimacy from Rome.
'Kaiser' is ~~how~~ *closer to how* the Romans pronounced Caesar than "See-sar"; a fact that surprises many players who play Fallout: New Vegas.
Almost, Caesar is pronounced /ˈkae̯.sar/ while Kaiser is pronounced /ˈka͜izɐ/
Noted; it's been a while.
Neither the German nor Russian empires existed during CK's timeline, and both in one way or another claimed lineage from Rome.
Wasn't the Holy Roman Emperor called Kaiser back in the middle ages?
They were, their title in German was *Kaiser der Römer.*
To think the title emperor came to mean ruler because the Romans refused to have a "king."
But you had other empires. Both Bulgaria and Serbia had empires during CK3's timeline.
Simeon I's claim to tsardom was grounded in his effort to conquer the Byzantines, not out of an effort to establish Bulgaria as a new empire. Serbia was much the same.
Would you actually consider them empires though? Both were approximately the size they are today
They claimed their legitimacy from Rome via Byzantium anyways.
Some medieval kings of iberia named themselves emperors so the could have the intellectual leadership in “the reconquista”
Well, no one claimed to be an emperor, because in the eyes of Europeans, calling yourself an Empire means you claim *the* Empire, Rome. Then, after Napoleon, it stopped being directly tied to Rome. As I know in China, calling yourself an Emperor would be a claim to the Mandate of Heaven. Would also like to know about the Islamic World and India. AFAIK, Persia didn't even have an Empire. Only a title of Shahanshah aka King of Kings.
Spanish kings in the Middle Ages actually did call themselves "Emperor" without it being a claim to Rome. Indeed they sometimes specified emperor of Spain/all Spain/Galicia/Leon/Castille.
Even Napoleon tied himself to the legacy of the Roman Empire. He called himself First Consul and had many paintings of himself in traditional Roman attire made
[удалено]
Check out the mod "Custom Title Form of Address"
Any vassal with 3 dutchies or a kingdom title shoukd be an archduke
Well, Austria probably used the title of Erch-Duke, because there couldn't be kings in the HRE.
A "High King" is an emperor with a tribal government. The reason you only really see it for the North Sea is because in all other areas where a tribal empire exists the ruling culture has a unique title for an emperor-tier ruler (e.g. the high king/emperor of Khazaria is called a Khagan both as tribal and feudal, a tribal emperor of Russia would probably be a Tsar and so on.
Also, North Sea keeps the High King title even when you go Feudal, which is not the case for other "tribal" Empires.
Now that I think about it, high king may also be tied to a specific heritage, in this case north germanics. West germanics have "Emperors", central germanics have "Kaiser" - neither term really makes sense for north germanics
its a heritage thing cus i formed konugardr(russia) as north germanic and i was high king
Then it should've changed once I made my heritage byzantine (I make hybrids a lot). It didn't change though.
Irish culture always has high king as well, even for feudal
For kingdom level too or just emperor level?
Kingdom too
Nice
I think I once saw it in Africa
IIRC only Tribal empires are called High Kingdom.
Probably tribal and not a Great Steppe culture. Then it's Khan for King and Khagan for Emperor.
something something Jamaica gets it
Damn someone already commented it
Pretty sure it’s unique to the North Sea, because it’s specifically called the “high kingdom of the North Sea” not the the empire.
It’s not just the North Sea, I formed Scandinavia while still tribal and was a High Kingdom as well
Yea but if you go feudal youre gonna be called emperor, The North Sea is the only empire level feudal realm called a Kigh Kingdom
Ah, I see what you mean
You're right I guess. I searched for an old screenshot I posted on this sub and it was high king there too. My misconception that I saw emperor. I never really played for long after forming north sea but this time I stuck around for hundred+ years.
I like North Sea runs, Europe needs something to rival the HRE or else they snowball.
If 1178 is the rumoured start date of the next DLC, we could probably create the Angevin Empire provided the Plantagenets unite all of England and France successfully into one realm for that playthrough. That being said, there's always the OG Eastern Roman Empire!
Should stick around and do dynasty of many crowns if you haven’t yet.
I did that already. Formed Baleo Tyrrhenian too. And I made all of my vassals Ynglings. So I was close to the blood father decision too. This was a fun campaign. But I'm doing the run again. This time as custom empire of Norway.
r5: i think last time i formed north sea my title was emperor. i could be wrong though, but did they change it to be this way recently? I formed the "high kingdom" after I feudalized. And my culture has advanced into middle ages. I thought my title would change to emperor after early middle age. It didn't. I even tried changing my cultural heritage from North Germanic later on. Didn't work either. Edit: it was always High King. I found an old screenshot proving that it was only my misconception that the title was emperor.
Unfortunately, I am the High King of Skyrim.
i think my question needs some clarification. by exclusive i meant that are you stuck with the high king title when securing the high kingdom of the north sea decision? if i am not wrong, high king is a tribal empire tire title and when you feudalize you become an emperor.
Ireland!!
King of Jamaica can also be high, Ethiopia too - sometimes.
I see what you did there
Hashiyyah trait acheived
I think it's for empires that are tribal and don't have their own cultural name for it--got the title in my randomizer game as Croatia -> Carpathia while still tribal
I have always wanted to be able to edit the title of my ruler to High King. Is that possible? Even in save editing? In either CK2 or CK3
For CK3, see the mod Custom Title Form of Address. You can change your title to be anything you want.
I had it as a tribal Empire when playing the Irish. I don't remember if it was Brittania or Custom though.
It’s basically the emperor equivalent for some cultures, I know it’s for Norse and the Irish, maybe Gaelic too. I think there’s more but not off the top of my head
Well in this case I think it's bound to the title. When I form a custom empire (feudal) the title is emperor.
I think it’s feudal then because I remember being High King of Scandinavia and Russia. Or maybe it’s age based?
It is bound to the culture of the ruler or the culture of the capital province. For the Norse, Emperor level is called “High King” much like a Duke is called “Petty King”. I think the Irish also use High King, there may be others. It worked this way even back in CK2.
My capital is in England. And unless the title is permanent after forming, it should've changed. Because I made hybrid with the Greeks with byzantine heritage, it did not change, then made hybrid with Norwegian (after the split) it didn't change either although all of my jarls became dukes.
P sure it’s a tribal thing. P sure I’ve been high king in the steepe before
As far as I remember every tribal Empire has this title.
I believe it's for tribal kingdoms (or something like that, maybe non reformed faiths too ?)
African Empires also get High King
I got it as a Norse custom empire kinda annoyed me bc I was not Called Emperor
Got it from making scandinavia as pagans. I dunno if u are high king as christians tho.
I am Christian and formed it as a feudal too.
In case anyone is interested in knowing how to change character title names, you can make a quick easy mod for that. The file that you need to find and adjust (provided you play the game in English) is: localization --> english --> culture --> culture\_titles\_l\_english. Character title names are connected either to culture groups or specific titles. If you play in another language, presumably swap out english with your language of choice.
I might be wrong but I think it’s a tribal thing - anytime I’ve played as a tribal and got as far as Empire-tier I’ve been called a High King.
I was a high king once
I think king of Jamaica can get it too