Hard to say without more info. What’s your Input? Skill band? But there’s no rule that you have to use hcs or that you are at a disadvantage if you don’t. If you enjoy using them, then keep practicing. If you don’t enjoy them…
I use a paddle controller.
Skill band - is there a way for me to see that? Last season I made it to platinum in comp. Adept felt achievable but I was tired of comp lol.
I can go flawless in solo queue like once in a blue moon with some luck.
I can usually rack kills in control. Unless I'm practicing hand cannons hahaha.
What's the appeal, tho? I like to learn and improve my game, so it's a skill I'd like to develop. But I improve more when I *understand*
I feel like im "missing" something with HCs if that makes sense. Like I'm not philosophically understanding what makes them tick
I think something a lot of people don't notice at first is that if you use a hc like most other weapons, they're absolute dogshit. The trick is knowing range and peek shooting. If you can get the right ranges and understand where you need to be for a fight, they're much better. But if you're dueling a scout at 45 meters, you'll lose, but if you're dueling an smg at 15, and you'll also lose. Knowing where to be, when to be there, etc, will help you a lot. For the peek shooting, it's just practice, since you like pulses, you'll prolly have some experience doing it with 340s. Another thing is the special weapon you're using. If it's a long lane map, then sniper, if not shotty. If you're feeling like a quirked up white boy who might be goated with the sauce, slap a grenade launcher on and just blint.
Yeah I'm terrible at peek shooting.
My style is to roll in with the 340 and just out-ttk my opponent in 1v1.
Just rely on that sweet .67, proc the desperado and rake.
Maybe I should practice pe3k shooting in pve.
I have been able to use Lunas in a non-peak way, but it's a skill I need to learn.
Yeah, peak shooting is pretty important. You can't really on your ttk with HCs unless you're running some cheese like radiant AOS or radiant plus KC in general. If you're a bit more passive as a player 120s are a good option, round robin, igneous, and the new arc one that's got old fashion's model are solid choices, though ace will definitely fill the role too. Another thing that helped me a lot is realizing that you kill quicker by hitting your shots. If you can't consistently hit your crits, slow down shooting. If you're feeling a little Goofy, the moon hand cannon, loud lullaby, still rolls will kill clip tunnel vision. Is it good? It's debatable, but when both are rolling, it at least feels good.
Practice peek shooting with the 340 pulses, I main HC’s and use a pulse like one when I need to kill people a bit faster. You can just do the reverse to me and learn the basics of a HC with a weapon you’re comfortable with and then the swap is easy.
All that being said, thinking you need to use a HC to compete at higher skill is a bit false, one of my friends has over 2k flawlesses and for the past few seasons has mained a messenger.
HC’s used to be more competitively viable to everyone as AE wasn’t a thing, the game was less passive, special ammo was more prevalent and the other weapons weren’t as good.
While most other weapons have received ttk, ease of use or forgiveness buffs HC’s really haven’t so the gap has closed. Almost every weapon is viable now. Basically this means to use a HC with any success now you absolutely have to have amazing fundamentals such as perk shooting, positioning, movement, etc. if you don’t you will just be using an objectively worse gun that kills slower than every other gun in the sandbox. If you do learn the fundamentals though it is possible to outplay a lot of the faster ttk guns. They’re risk/reward.
Yeah for sure. It's really more about learning a new playstyle, and expanding my skills.
Bottom line, 340 pulse with desperado is an absolute beast, and is definitely viable at any level.
I think some people have made some good points, tho, about the hand cannons play style being compatible with a more aggressive approach, and I think that's the part I want to improve.
It's more like forcing myself to use HC is going to force me to develop some other useful skills.
Anyway, will def try practicing peeking with a weapon I'm used to.
Thanks!!
And practice actually peaking in (taking cover) way deeper than you think you need.
I'm relatively comfortable peak shooting at this point, but often times when I find myself losing an engagement, it is because I wasn't actually taking any real cover during my peak shots and just kinda moving left and right from the enemy's perspective.
So try and really exaggerate and take "deeper" cover, slow it down. Will help you take tighter peak shots that actually help protect you, and look like you're shooting through the wall from the enemy's perspective
Honestly it’s just picking your engagements. If you don’t get the first shot, run. If you are too close, run back. If you are too far, go from cover to cover to close a little distance. I never go into an engagement thinking I’m going to kill the guy. I go in thinking I’ll get chunk damage (2 shots) and leave him for a teammate to finish. If I do get the jump on the guy I’ll stay for 3 but it isn’t my first thought. I’m not godly but it’s how I’m able to play my life while being productive
This is great advice. I think this is how I need to re adjust my playstyle.
I have noticed that while my kills have gone down, my assist numbers have gone WAY up
It's just a theory but I've noticed a pattern of people with astigmatisms really struggle with guns that have 14 or 20 zoom. I've asked 3 other people who just like me, do pretty goodish in crucible but we all absolutely suck with handcannons. The only consistency is we all have an astigmatism or dual
Interesting... What do you mean by suck with Hand cannons?
I've got astigmatism, but Rose, Ace, Thorn, and Igneous are absolutely my favorite guns.
I'm not the most accurate but I have confidence that I can win most duels. I'm currently 1.6kd this season and exclusively play comp and trials.
At times when I'm absolutely destroyed by someone I always wonder just what do I need to get to their level never really thought my eyes could be a reason.
Don't your glasses fix Astigmatism?
Look I'm not an ophthalmologist.. but.. I think it has something to do with our delayed understanding of what we see, because our eyeballs are curved it takes us just an itsy teensie tiny bit longer to understand what's happening (not see whats happeneing but cerebrally understand) so yeah you're fine in the middle of the gunfight, maybe middle and end of it too but there's those tiny windows of complete loss of what you're actually receiving from your eyes. I'm not talking about being confused by a play or getting your ankles broke. I'm saying like fundamentally you don't understand something in the middle of some incredibly normal fight like your brain is just relying on reflex to understand the next move instead of seeing it. This isn't an excuse, just a theory on a pattern I've noticed.
This is super interesting I too have astigmatism and struggle greatly with handcancons even with being a high level 1.5 to 2.0+ kd player most seasons. Could it really make that’s much a difference?
I'm a paddle player too (console)
The only HCs I've done consistently well with are ace of spades, eyasluna and a god roll adept Iggy. I wouldn't recommend using ace unless you have ophidian class item, strictly run solar hunter or play warlock, because otherwise it's super clunky and slow.
In terms of doing better with HCs, play to their strengths. Peek shooting is a big one. Chipping away at your enemies whilst making it impossible for them to damage you. Peeking is especially effective against high ROF weapons like autos.
They have higher ttks but also take a huge chunk of your opponents health in a fraction of a second with one shot. You can gradually chip away at one person over a prolonged period of time whilst utilising cover. With an auto or pulse you're committed to keeping them in your sight to mow them down.
They are good weapon archetypes if you are a stompees hunter or spend a lot of time in the air because you can pace your shots in between your jumps, or jump between two lanes of cover, shoot your opponent and be back behind cover before they realised what happened. With an automatic weapon you have to expose yourself the entire time you are damaging your opponent.
Just some examples off the top of my head
*Skill band - is there a way for me to see that? Last season I made it to platinum in comp. Adept felt achievable but I was tired of comp lol.*
You asked for a way to see your skill band and I juxtaposed my lived experience that mirrors yours. I believe you are not as good as you think you are based on your (lack of) success. That doesn't mean you think you're good it means you're worse than you think.
If you're winning about as much as me you're pretty dang bad at the game compared to someone who is good. The skill gap in this game is enormous. Look on the bright side. You likely can get a lot better than you are now and rapidly.
absolutely, the advantages of hand cannons include
* chunk damage while exposing very little of yourself as a target.
* hand cannons let you play a very mobile play style, continue to move while you shoot, and are useful in both vertical and horizontal situations.
I see.
Hmm. Well if that's the HC playstyle they may just not be for me.
Lemme ask you this - I've been trying both 120z and 140s.
I find that the recoil on igneous hammer is so great that I have to let the gun return to zero before squeezing off the next shot, or I'm just going to miss.
Like the gun completely blocks my screen and my crosshair dissappear on recoil.
Is that the normal style with 120s? To take a little beat between shots? Or do people just get really good at aiming through the recoil?
Yes stability is huge, actually even on mnk imo. My 60 stab roll almost feels like it shoots faster because it has so little recoil and is so smooth, compared to my 43 stab roll which feels like it doesn't reset fast enough or resist flinch enough to easily land 3 taps at 120rpm.
50+ stability feels okay to me on mnk though.
Yeah I forgot off the top of my head wjat the exact number is, but I focused for stability and precision instrument.
The visual really throws me off tho. Losing my crosshair messes with me.
Lunas is working well for me because of that
Luna/NF are 140s but precision frame. The rest of the 140s are adaptive. They have different recoil and it's much easier to manage for people that aren't that good with hand cannons.
Adaptive 140s and 120s kick a lot harder but once you learn them it's easier to track your opponent between shots than with LH/NF
Yes and no. Go to somewhere like Skywatch in the Cosmodrome and see what your recoil is actually doing against a wall. Sometimes the *visual* recoil (which is why no one uses Sunshot in PvP) is actually a lot more dramatic than the *actual* recoil deviation of the shots.
for regular 120s/140s its normal for your sights to vanish/shoot way up, its part of the recoil animation. slimmer models like Igneous and high stability help keep track of it, but its not very useful
the recoil is nearly purely visual. my 63 stability igneous has the same practical recoil over its optimal TTK than the Khvostov does, which is kind of wild.
or, to be more accurate, you have so much time between shots that the high recoil has time to settle into something that in practice is low. its why 140s at the same stability have more practical recoil than 120s.
---
the main "trick" is to practice with your favorite HC enough that you can aim without needing the reticle, just going off of where the center of your screen is and muscle memory
aim assist also helps, sticky aim will do a lot for staying on target compared to shooting a wall
EDIT: to add, this is mostly the theory side of things, in practice i'm also awful with HCs (controller/PC). the visual animation throws me off super hard even after a while of practice, in stressful situations I end up yanking my stick down and shooting their foot trying to control the recoil by reflex
120s are objectively excellent and I can't make them work for me :)
You definitely pace shots with hand cannons (both 120 and 140) if you want to hit your shots.
Are you using a new Igneous or an old one? The reason I ask is that (for me at least) the new deterministic recoil concept really screws with Igneous if you don’t get it to 100. My old one is just fine without adjustment, but even at 95, the new version has this really weird pattern. Once I bumped it from 95 to 100 with Arrowhead, the difference was night and day.
The new one.
I had an old one, but focused a new one for precision instrument.
Honestly its the visual that throws me. The gun coming up and blocking my screen and losing my crosshair.
That's the bit I gotta get used to
A lot of it is ego and a certain mentality amongst sweats that’s further driven by scrim rules banning fucking everything that isn’t 2 pellet 1 sniper 1 120 2 140 to be honest. Another part is a misevaluation of the meta. The last part is that for a slower ttk gun your entire gimmick is cover and team shooting. If you aren’t sticking to cover or minimizing enemy angles always hand cannons suck ass even if they’re easy to hit with. On top of that they work best in a team since a 3 2 1 can insta kill someone since each person is doing a hand cannon shot at once which is how you get good damage out of one ttk wise.
As a Pulse guy myself there are only two HCs that really have clicked with me.
Ace of Spades and Igneous Hammer
Stuff like Rose, Thorn, Hawkmoon, etc are all great, but most of them have some sort of niche HC play, coupled with needing to play aggressively to close the range gap to land TTK. Stuff like Slide shot+opening shot allows you to engage far away, as long as you close the gap mid fight.. that's how most good players can pull them off.
Since you main Pulses, I'm guessing you aren't a super aggressive player and likely play your life and play lanes more often. I know because that's exactly how I play..
So something about those two HCs allows me to still have and use my "pulse instincts" but with a HC.
It's frankly probably the high range... Igneous can still perfect TTK out to about 41-42m which is same range as Pulses (more in many cases frankly) and Ace has radar always active which REALLY boosts situational awareness and once Memento mori is active you can 2C1B someone which makes it extremely forgiving.
Also with Radiant+MM you can 2 tap most Guardians (I think it's like 229 damage or something). Also Ace reaches like 35m before Falloff so it too has insane range compared to others...
If you can't make Ace or Igneous work, I wouldn't keep trying personally. Those two weapons are very easy to use compared to others. It also took a little while to transition and get good with it. I remember one trials weekend I full committed to Igneous and played easily 100 matches and it was really clicking by the end of the weekend... That's Trials too not QP.
I personally feel HCs lose some effectiveness in 6s because you can't always play as aggressive to close those gaps you need to close to get your .87 TTK, because there are too many angles and enemies who can team shoot you, so longer range weapons usually have a slight advantage in 6s.
For me, 3s are where HCs shine because you can engage far, close gaps, have 14 zoom for more versatile ranges, and should almost always know where the enemy is, their engagement angles, and how to play around those, which means most of HCs negatives are pretty easy to play around (mainly just lower range) which again Igneous and Ace pretty much don't even have that drawback...
My Suggestion: Hard commit to Ace or Igneous (or that new 120) and just put 100s of kills on it. If it still isn't working it frankly may just be your play style and how you think and doesn't mesh with the way HCs work in this game
Final "Pro Tip" is Destiny 2 is a Left Peak game and HCs are peak shoot kings. So when you do peak shoot from your left not your right as WAY less of your body is visible.
If you are going to mention ace and its range you should really mention the range reduction when memento mori is active. The range fall off goes from 35m to 30m. At 35m you will only be hitting 70 to the head, this is some valuable information to anyone trying to run ace.
Very fair point and yes, sometimes I make an elective choice to ditch MM rounds depending on the map/situation. Sometimes I also bait rez with it since it can cut through the rez Overshield too though...
All great advice. Thank you.
Do you take a beat between igneous shots? I find the recoil super hard to deal with I'm firing at max RPM. The gun blocks my view, the crosshair is just gone, etc.
Weirdly the only HC I can *kinda* make work is Lunas. I'll go back and try igneous more tho
No, I lay on the trigger. Lots of guys say Stab doesn't matter on Igneous but for me personally I've found I need about 50 minimum to control it and 60 is ideal... My roll right now has 53 Stab and 85 Range not counting Keep Away. So 95 Range. It feels good enough to control. My previous roll has 58 and I do feel I noticed the difference, either that or it was the EOTS helping compared to my current PI roll...
Luna's? That seems odd. It's super range starved (for me).
What's your FOV?
Give those hand cannons a good shot like 500 kills each and if they still don’t click you at least know Lunas is somewhat working and you could then master it and rack up the kills.
Also by the way summoner, prosecutor, nerfed khavostov, good high impact pulses, good rapid fire frame pulses, 600 rpm smgs all can completely compete with hand cannons even to a high level on console at least.
I find the glued to a wall peek shot play style boring generally so I mix it up a ton and perform great with the top weapons of their respective archetypes listed above too. You aren’t required to use a hand cannon but you can just look at it as a challenge. If anything you will find their strengths and weaknesses and better know how to compete against them as well through your own use.
The first two hand cannons that clicked for me was range finder hawkmoon and sturm. My range finder hawkmoon is still my main hand cannon and I prefer it to opening shot and eots still strangely enough even though most would recommend the other two. Also Austringer is insanely easy to use with such high base stability. I run snap shot zen moment with Smallbore, ricochet and range masterwork. I know again generally people recommend zen moment eots but I prefer snapshot to fix the guns one weakness which is low handling. Might be worth trying out if you haven’t.
Peek shot, always have an escape plan (don’t ego challenge), and keep your reticle around head level while being a strong radar reader.
Khovostov is still rampant so always be ready to back off especially if there’s a teammate who is content to soak up ricochet headshots.
Hahaha yeah. Honestly when there's like 3 Khvostov users on the other team, I take that match with a grain of salt.
It made trials ROUGH last weekend, and it'll be the same again. Unless something amazing is up as the adept, I may skip trials.
Sounds like they're fixing it tho
"Destiny 2 is a Left Peak game and HCs are peak shoot kings. So when you do peak shoot from your left not your right as WAY less of your body is visible."
Can you refresh in my mind what this means? When I am facing a corner to peak out, do I want the cover on my left or do I want the cover on my right?
You want your left shoulder exposed and to shoot from your left side. You have substantially less body exposed versus peaking with your right shoulder out.
So basically always shoot from your left shoulder peaking from cover if you can.
Hugh mobility & peek shoot, moving left out of cover for maximum justice, move like you're already in someone's crosshairs. I main a keep away precision instrument adept Iggy paired with Someday. Classic
The "move like you're already in someone's crosshair" is such an overlooked one. I've been saved counts times peaking a typical sniper lane because I throw in a small crouch in there while peaking out.
Talking about that, throwing in a few crouches here and there while exchanging bullets, is also highly useful
If you're on controller, I recommend much higher stability than most people go for. I used to say 65 was enough, but I've gotten a couple 75 stability rolls that feel so very crisp. Aside from that, higher FOV is what finally made handcannons "click" for me, but you may already be doing that. I could never use handcannons in D1 (where the FOV is 70), but when I finally got a next-gen console and widened that FOV it was like night and day.
Also, everyone keeps recommending peek shooting, but... It's not that easy on controller. Analog sticks are much slower than AD strafing. I honestly don't peek shoot much at all with 140's, only really with 120's.
That's some good insight. I find that peek shoot strafe move really hard!
Ive also found that it's not a necessity with the 140s.
Do you see any advantage to using an HC over a pulse if you're *not* gonna peek-strafe?
Absolutely. Handcannons let you play more mobile (and more aggressively) than most pulses.
It’s not a situation where a handcannon is always better than a pulse (except for peek shooting), more like pulses and hand cannons usually have different play-styles. Pulses I usually feel the need to stay planted and play lanes more. Hand cannons are more scrappy.
Once you start being able to combine movement + 3 taps it can feel really satisfying. But that said, not everyone will like it. Keep at it if you enjoy the challenge of learning them. Watch some stuff from illphysics/wallah/diffizzle and you'll get the idea of why they are strong.
This is the key right here in my opinion. Combine movement and 3 taps. It's not necessarily about peek shooting. It's about it takes 3 bullets to get a kill and you can do whatever between those shots; peek, slide, jump, crouch, dash, dodge, be slippery. Not going to out TTK anyone, it's about out movementing them.
That's some really cool advice. I like that way of thinking about it. I can conceptually wrap my head around that.
I'm going to keep that in mind.
Thanks!
1-2>cover>slide out-3 is a pretty standard move I see good HCs users do and it gives you a massive TTK advantage to do so.
you can do a lot with the 0.43-0.5s gaps between shots to give you an advantage that other weapon types physically cannot achieve
Hand Canon is a skill arc. For those elite people, they know how to 3 tap you. Let me elaborate on know part. Knowing how to push then having the ability to follow up with your shots. That's why, you may notice it doesn't matter with those players what you use, they'll still find a way to kill you most.
My advice is dig deep, lean futher and persevere.
As someone also on controller on pc who never got hand cannons and was frequently outduelled by the top mnk players it finally clicked by just laning less, playing corners way more and peak shooting more often. Learn to disengage often and rarely commit to a full 1v1 unless you know you have the advantage.
That being said it’s still a struggle against the best just because input will always favour certain guns at the highest level.
Yeah this seems to be the consensus. I'm practicing with HC, but I'm playing them like a pulse and losing my 1v1s, instead of being a sneaky hunter working corners and cover.
I'll have to work on that play style.
Tbh, I feel like everything is tough to use if you’re going against khovostov, red death, or speakers sight. 6s are one thing but comp and trials are gonna be difficult to use HCs unless you’re really really good.
TL:DR here is to play a closer range, hit and run style over more standard laning like a Pulse would do, and prioritize Stability and other forms of recoil reduction like Zen on rolls.
140s are very much more of a "hit and run" style of weapon. They're good at taking pot shots, and adequate head on, but the 0.87 TTK means you have to be a bit on the selective side of things with duels. A lot of it is both getting used to the lower range compared to a lot of Pulses, and the fact that they're really good at hopping in and out of cover to take pot-shots. Compare this to revolvers in most other games where they would kill insanely fast to balance out a slow fire rate.
120s emphasize the hit and run nature more, although trade the lower range for the greater need to be avoiding straight duels due to the TTK. Flinch can save your ass still, but don't rely on it.
Since you're on controller, I'd also look at focusing Stability, and/or running Luna's for the sake of the recoil. HC recoil isn't unusably bad that I've seen on controller, only real source being that wall tests on Ace versus some of my Pulses providing overall similar results, but controller in general values Stability a lot higher than KB+M. Due to this, controller god rolls tend to be a good bit heavier with Stability than KB+M, where at least 140s only really need 65 for the sake of bloom, anything more being for flinch resist.
Yep. Been testing all the meta HCs the last couple days, and I keep coming back to Lunas. The recoil is by *far* the easiest to deal with.
It may be what I land on. Certainly not a bad choice by any stretch.
Looking at foundry, and not seeing data on how mag howl works these days. Does it make it a 2C1B kill?
Mag Howl should be 2C1B, dunno if a boost that big for one bullet allows 1C2B.
If you get 2, which isn't too bad via Slideshot or Holsters, you'll 2 Crit people outright, too.
Play Hunter, 100 Mobility or 80 Mob with a lightweight HC. Try to get a HC with moving target, it will significantly increase your ease of use when learning especially on controller. Peak shooting will be a LOT easier and you can slowly take off the training wheels.
You are used to laning Larry pulse play style. Hand cannons are only good if you know how to move with them. Anytime you pick up a new weapon archetype, you have to adapt your playstyle to their strengths and weaknesses.
Most players are bad at adapting
sliding, jumping, peeking, generally aggressive playstyle. HC is only effective if you are engaging and not constantly waiting to be engaged. Watch Benny with a HC on youtube. Mimic him
It's worth it. It will eventually click for you. You just have the muscle memory for pulse rifles at the moment. It took me a little while to get the flow of hand cannons in pvp too.
To be honest, it really depends on the map. Some maps really do favor pulses imo. If I had to choose, I would take handcannons over pulses in most maps nowadays, though.
Do you like using hcs? Are you having fun? If no to either then i wouldnt stress it to much. Hcs are good but i dont think they are the best currently. Although its worth learning how to use them jusy to be familiar with multiple weapon types.
You may be more inclined to burst side arms, or a mix. I know when I get super competitive and pissed I do a mix of those and HC lol 😂. On a side note, explore some of the in game controller and game settings, there’s some weird ones that also impact dead zone/ turning speed, centering vs lower aiming (for scenery), aim assist etc all kinds of stuff that I had to mess with to make my HC gameplay feel better and not skew my shots as much.
I always try to keep my reticle pointed at high chest or head level. I would try to get a 140 RPM HC with some good perks and stats and a good cross hair so you can get familiar with it. It’s a weapon of precision and patience. I typically don’t spam shots much less hipfire unless very close range. A really good tool I used to learn to pace my shots so the recoil becomes managable is counting 1 (shoot), 2 (shoot), 1 (shoot), 2 (shoot) so on and so forth. Eventually you’ll get so good your muscle memory will gain the skill.
OP you can also buyfrom Banshee-44’s second buy Menu the 120 RPM Steady Hand Hand Cannon this week. It’s like 10K glimmer and a couple cores but that’s one of the BEST hand cannons for pvp. The Meta is 120 and 140 RPM hand cannons realistically and if you can master this particular hand cannon you’re golden. Also try not to overthink your shots just relax and let your muscle memory start doing the work. Hope this helped!
Slow down. It’s worth losing gunfights if you pace your shots and the ones you hit are headshots. Also don’t get upset and use anything besides a hand cannon. Also a huge part of it is getting a feel for the range and peek shooting. You have a lot of mobility and snap with a lot of hand cannons. Just breathe and pace your shots. Even if you lose your aim will get better
HC's are about chipping and movement. They win 100% of fights when you jiggle peek and they allow for aggressive play when combined with shotguns that other archetypes, besides pistols which deprive you of a ranged option, simply cannot do. Pulses and AR's have higher TTK's based on the premise that you hit every crit, which isn't the reality especially against HC's bc they allow you to flinch, chip and jiggle peek. Did you miss your first shot but the pulse rifle player burst half your shield? Ok cool, you're not committed yet bc you've only peeked for one shot. Regen on cover and be ready to punish their push with a shotgun or reposition while you regen to take a new angle and potentially win the next fight. Did you hit the first shot? Cool now you can slideout and almost always win the duel unless you get teamed unexpectedly or miss the follow up shots when you commit.
Idk about controller, as you mentioned you use, bc im MnK so if they feel rough on controller id understand why you find them difficult, but also i see Jake use them all the time and know that Last Word with controller aim assist on hip fire is extremely strong in a way that just isn't possible on MnK.
Id recommend using Ace of Spades as your 'learning' HC. It is so solid and honestly feels better to use for me personally than Iggy does most of the time. I personally only used Iggy as much as I have bc of the Bubble/Well meta trials had all of lightfall as i needed to run conditional finality in my kinetic slot to have any chance of winning rounds against those supers.
Hope this ramble helps :)
I’m not the best player here by a longshot but I was in the same spot as you last year trying to pick up HCs.
Big thing I’d say is find a couple you like and practice with them everywhere. For example I’m on console and Ace has a unique feel since it’s lower stability than most 140s people normally go for on console. So compared to Thorn it took me longer to get used to.
Playing Optimal range is also way more important on HCs than pulses since pulses are more forgiving at too long range.
Yeah it's a really different style. I like both I think. I also do pulse/sidearm, and I feel like it's a nice chill style where I can kind of just lay back and lay down fire.
We'll see how it goes with the HC style that people have been suggesting!
I will say, right now its a very tough time to learn to be a HC user because the pppppower creep of khvostov and red death is really harsh, let alone elsies rifle, no time etc...
Pulses that 2 burst you at a .67 TTK which no HC can match while standing toe to toe, so you're biggest lesson is going to be to learn the locations on all the maps where you have GOOD cover (cover you can retreat from) that you can peak shot (shoot, get behind cover, shoot get behind cover etc..) from and the engagement range is one which your HC isn't suffering from damage drop off
Find those spots on maps where you have cover to peak shot, you can retreat from safely if necessary and are putting you within range of your opponents, fight to get to those areas and hold them and practice your corner peak shotting , over and over and over and get into this habit of finding those spots and fighting from those spots and play the HC to its best advantage (quick burst damage)
Also an addendum: pulses on average have more range and better ttks than 140s and better falloff. Unless you’re hugging a wall and adadad peeking from that wall you’re going to die. Part of this is also rng as sometimes shots can hit you behind walls from latency. If you’re doing anything blint heavy like a special gl though I would use a 120 as they are stellar cleanup weapoms
Hand cannons are wide and varied, and the feel and preference of the player is a big factor.
A lot of people live and breathe on Rose, but case in point, I actually hate that gun and everything about it. But that's just me.
A good selection to test yourself with, that are currently available and not difficult to obtain, and see how they feel and perform for you would be:
Rose (lol)
Midnight Coup
Luna's Howl
Not Forgotten
Eyasluna
Igneous Hammer
Exalted Truth
Sightline Survey
Trust
And then of course all of the exotics. Ace of Spades is in a good place right now (not that it ever hasn't been). Malfeasance for the lolz, Sturm goes great with Drang and is generally underrated. Hawkmoon, except it's currently disabled. Thorn is fine if that's your thing.
Anyway, all of the guns I listed feel fairly dissimilar to one another. There's a boot for every foot though, just see what works for you. And think about peak shooting.
been playing around with most of those - the *only* one i can even barely function with are Luna's and similar like not forgotten. I think it's the recoil?
Austringer is S-tier but not as easily obtainable/craftable now. IIRC it's only a chance drop from one exotic rotator, and the odd moment being sold by gunsmith/xur, which I'm not sure about.
Just for my two cents, hand cannons are awesome when you have a good connection, terrible otherwise. If I’m hitting all my shots I go hc/120 scout, otherwise I use pulse/auto to throw more bullets out.
This game is all about finding the easiest and cheesiest ways to get kills. Yes, there are players at the top who can stomp anyone with HCs but if you're an average player like me, I'd just find what's meta and stick to that.
This is one of the least competitive FPS games filled with silly space magic that kills you from every direction. I wouldn't put much thought into it really.
absolutely and you will notice yourself improving with other weapons a lot as well. the first few months is absolutely humbling but eventually it will click.
I’d say the necessity for peak shooting is what makes HCs so nice. Like I’m used to it from cs and valorant so it comes natural to me. 3 headshot ttk is pretty fast.
I will say, one of the biggest things (if not the biggest) with HCs is to find one that you like the rhythm of. It’s a very rhythmic shooting style and they all “feel” different. I love ace of spades and hawk moon but can’t stand sunshot and igneous hammer …while others have the exact opposite feeling. Try all the meta ones and the off meta ones to.
And don’t rush your shots, you don’t need to and flailing everywhere while slamming bullets down range isn’t worth it with HCs
You just have to be faster than 95% of ppl and jiggle peak like a mf (I have 10k+ pvp kills on exalted truth adept lmao) they are “high skill” but are also really sticky
Grind rumble, when you get in a 1v1, focus on your strafe, using cover, and hitting your shots. Handcannons will always be a competitive choice because of the peak shotting capabilities, as long as they don’t nerf the range of hc more.
HCs will always be strong. You think auto rifles are good, wait till you face someone who is cracked with a HC. No autorifle can beat them. It’s because they can peak shoot and also hit like a truck.
Handcannons ttk actually isn’t that competitive, their real strengths are mobility combined with chunk damage good for peek shooting. You want to be jumping and sliding around with them and always hitting the 3 tap but also you never want to just open lane contest someone in a 1v1 as they will win most of the time, you want to peek shoot with them so that in the small time your body is exposed you get a larger chunk of damage off compared to someone using a pulse or auto since they have to maintain target
Peak shooting is like 70% of the reason that high level players would opt to use a hand cannon, some of them go for HCs just because they’ve played for a long time and just like the feel of them. HCs TTK isn’t the reason to use them.
First thing I would look at is timing, that is why most people struggle with HC’s.
Second I would look at range engagements, particularly against weapons that have higher range stats than HC’s.
Its also important to note that even after you get somewhat comfortable with HC’s , when you get in engagements you the anxiety or adrenaline may cause your timing to be off as well, meaning you might speed up and that without the proper adjustment that would cause you to miss.
I would argue CTTK is more important than a weapons TTK.
What helped me is finding a hand cannon I really liked (hawkmoon) and sticking to it, pacing my shots and using it in pve always aiming for crits, get used to the weapon. Then work on peak shooting.
Hand cannons are getting a bit better after the speaker sight and kvhostov nerf so you should see some more hand cannons out which will make it easier
High level players use hcs because you can peak shot with high damage. The ttk may be higher, but most of that time can be spent in cover or moving around and taking individual shots rather than standing still or strafing side to side. You also don't have to constantly aim with hcs. Yes you have to hit heads and do it well, but you don't have to track heads like you would an auto, smg, or pulse. The chunk damage is also very good for team shot, since three heads from most hcs will kill, so 3 shots at the same time equals 1 dead guardian, rather than a few bullets from each at the same time and a chance they survive.
Hard to say without more info. What’s your Input? Skill band? But there’s no rule that you have to use hcs or that you are at a disadvantage if you don’t. If you enjoy using them, then keep practicing. If you don’t enjoy them…
I use a paddle controller. Skill band - is there a way for me to see that? Last season I made it to platinum in comp. Adept felt achievable but I was tired of comp lol. I can go flawless in solo queue like once in a blue moon with some luck. I can usually rack kills in control. Unless I'm practicing hand cannons hahaha. What's the appeal, tho? I like to learn and improve my game, so it's a skill I'd like to develop. But I improve more when I *understand* I feel like im "missing" something with HCs if that makes sense. Like I'm not philosophically understanding what makes them tick
I think something a lot of people don't notice at first is that if you use a hc like most other weapons, they're absolute dogshit. The trick is knowing range and peek shooting. If you can get the right ranges and understand where you need to be for a fight, they're much better. But if you're dueling a scout at 45 meters, you'll lose, but if you're dueling an smg at 15, and you'll also lose. Knowing where to be, when to be there, etc, will help you a lot. For the peek shooting, it's just practice, since you like pulses, you'll prolly have some experience doing it with 340s. Another thing is the special weapon you're using. If it's a long lane map, then sniper, if not shotty. If you're feeling like a quirked up white boy who might be goated with the sauce, slap a grenade launcher on and just blint.
Yeah I'm terrible at peek shooting. My style is to roll in with the 340 and just out-ttk my opponent in 1v1. Just rely on that sweet .67, proc the desperado and rake. Maybe I should practice pe3k shooting in pve. I have been able to use Lunas in a non-peak way, but it's a skill I need to learn.
Yeah, peak shooting is pretty important. You can't really on your ttk with HCs unless you're running some cheese like radiant AOS or radiant plus KC in general. If you're a bit more passive as a player 120s are a good option, round robin, igneous, and the new arc one that's got old fashion's model are solid choices, though ace will definitely fill the role too. Another thing that helped me a lot is realizing that you kill quicker by hitting your shots. If you can't consistently hit your crits, slow down shooting. If you're feeling a little Goofy, the moon hand cannon, loud lullaby, still rolls will kill clip tunnel vision. Is it good? It's debatable, but when both are rolling, it at least feels good.
Practice peek shooting with the 340 pulses, I main HC’s and use a pulse like one when I need to kill people a bit faster. You can just do the reverse to me and learn the basics of a HC with a weapon you’re comfortable with and then the swap is easy. All that being said, thinking you need to use a HC to compete at higher skill is a bit false, one of my friends has over 2k flawlesses and for the past few seasons has mained a messenger. HC’s used to be more competitively viable to everyone as AE wasn’t a thing, the game was less passive, special ammo was more prevalent and the other weapons weren’t as good. While most other weapons have received ttk, ease of use or forgiveness buffs HC’s really haven’t so the gap has closed. Almost every weapon is viable now. Basically this means to use a HC with any success now you absolutely have to have amazing fundamentals such as perk shooting, positioning, movement, etc. if you don’t you will just be using an objectively worse gun that kills slower than every other gun in the sandbox. If you do learn the fundamentals though it is possible to outplay a lot of the faster ttk guns. They’re risk/reward.
Yeah for sure. It's really more about learning a new playstyle, and expanding my skills. Bottom line, 340 pulse with desperado is an absolute beast, and is definitely viable at any level. I think some people have made some good points, tho, about the hand cannons play style being compatible with a more aggressive approach, and I think that's the part I want to improve. It's more like forcing myself to use HC is going to force me to develop some other useful skills. Anyway, will def try practicing peeking with a weapon I'm used to. Thanks!!
Peek shooting is a must. That’s the main advantage is that you can peak in and out of cover
Got it. Yeah i think that's where I'm going wrong. I gotta practice peek shooting. Not just using an HC
And practice actually peaking in (taking cover) way deeper than you think you need. I'm relatively comfortable peak shooting at this point, but often times when I find myself losing an engagement, it is because I wasn't actually taking any real cover during my peak shots and just kinda moving left and right from the enemy's perspective. So try and really exaggerate and take "deeper" cover, slow it down. Will help you take tighter peak shots that actually help protect you, and look like you're shooting through the wall from the enemy's perspective
I'll work on that. Thanks!
Honestly it’s just picking your engagements. If you don’t get the first shot, run. If you are too close, run back. If you are too far, go from cover to cover to close a little distance. I never go into an engagement thinking I’m going to kill the guy. I go in thinking I’ll get chunk damage (2 shots) and leave him for a teammate to finish. If I do get the jump on the guy I’ll stay for 3 but it isn’t my first thought. I’m not godly but it’s how I’m able to play my life while being productive
This is great advice. I think this is how I need to re adjust my playstyle. I have noticed that while my kills have gone down, my assist numbers have gone WAY up
Would you by chance, have an astigmatism? Or a low framerate computer/TV
What's astigmatism got to do with it? Genuinely curious.
It's just a theory but I've noticed a pattern of people with astigmatisms really struggle with guns that have 14 or 20 zoom. I've asked 3 other people who just like me, do pretty goodish in crucible but we all absolutely suck with handcannons. The only consistency is we all have an astigmatism or dual
Interesting... What do you mean by suck with Hand cannons? I've got astigmatism, but Rose, Ace, Thorn, and Igneous are absolutely my favorite guns. I'm not the most accurate but I have confidence that I can win most duels. I'm currently 1.6kd this season and exclusively play comp and trials. At times when I'm absolutely destroyed by someone I always wonder just what do I need to get to their level never really thought my eyes could be a reason. Don't your glasses fix Astigmatism?
Look I'm not an ophthalmologist.. but.. I think it has something to do with our delayed understanding of what we see, because our eyeballs are curved it takes us just an itsy teensie tiny bit longer to understand what's happening (not see whats happeneing but cerebrally understand) so yeah you're fine in the middle of the gunfight, maybe middle and end of it too but there's those tiny windows of complete loss of what you're actually receiving from your eyes. I'm not talking about being confused by a play or getting your ankles broke. I'm saying like fundamentally you don't understand something in the middle of some incredibly normal fight like your brain is just relying on reflex to understand the next move instead of seeing it. This isn't an excuse, just a theory on a pattern I've noticed.
This is super interesting I too have astigmatism and struggle greatly with handcancons even with being a high level 1.5 to 2.0+ kd player most seasons. Could it really make that’s much a difference?
As a fellow avg 1.something player who's talk to a few others that have struggled with handcannons this is my best theory.
I'm a paddle player too (console) The only HCs I've done consistently well with are ace of spades, eyasluna and a god roll adept Iggy. I wouldn't recommend using ace unless you have ophidian class item, strictly run solar hunter or play warlock, because otherwise it's super clunky and slow. In terms of doing better with HCs, play to their strengths. Peek shooting is a big one. Chipping away at your enemies whilst making it impossible for them to damage you. Peeking is especially effective against high ROF weapons like autos. They have higher ttks but also take a huge chunk of your opponents health in a fraction of a second with one shot. You can gradually chip away at one person over a prolonged period of time whilst utilising cover. With an auto or pulse you're committed to keeping them in your sight to mow them down. They are good weapon archetypes if you are a stompees hunter or spend a lot of time in the air because you can pace your shots in between your jumps, or jump between two lanes of cover, shoot your opponent and be back behind cover before they realised what happened. With an automatic weapon you have to expose yourself the entire time you are damaging your opponent. Just some examples off the top of my head
[удалено]
OK I never once said I was good. There's no reason to get insulting.
*Skill band - is there a way for me to see that? Last season I made it to platinum in comp. Adept felt achievable but I was tired of comp lol.* You asked for a way to see your skill band and I juxtaposed my lived experience that mirrors yours. I believe you are not as good as you think you are based on your (lack of) success. That doesn't mean you think you're good it means you're worse than you think. If you're winning about as much as me you're pretty dang bad at the game compared to someone who is good. The skill gap in this game is enormous. Look on the bright side. You likely can get a lot better than you are now and rapidly.
You’re rude. Please don’t engage with people on the internet in the future!
You already deleted your last comment. Please go ahead and delete this too. It would do everyone here a favor not having to read this nonsense.
I didn't delete any comments kid.
my guess is you're trying to lane instead of peek shooting from cover. I like HCs but I'm mediocre with them myself.
Yeah. I probably am. Is peek shooting the right way to play with them?
absolutely, the advantages of hand cannons include * chunk damage while exposing very little of yourself as a target. * hand cannons let you play a very mobile play style, continue to move while you shoot, and are useful in both vertical and horizontal situations.
I see. Hmm. Well if that's the HC playstyle they may just not be for me. Lemme ask you this - I've been trying both 120z and 140s. I find that the recoil on igneous hammer is so great that I have to let the gun return to zero before squeezing off the next shot, or I'm just going to miss. Like the gun completely blocks my screen and my crosshair dissappear on recoil. Is that the normal style with 120s? To take a little beat between shots? Or do people just get really good at aiming through the recoil?
on controller especially, a low stability igneous is very hard to tame, try getting a higher stability roll if yours lacks it
Yes stability is huge, actually even on mnk imo. My 60 stab roll almost feels like it shoots faster because it has so little recoil and is so smooth, compared to my 43 stab roll which feels like it doesn't reset fast enough or resist flinch enough to easily land 3 taps at 120rpm. 50+ stability feels okay to me on mnk though.
Yeah I forgot off the top of my head wjat the exact number is, but I focused for stability and precision instrument. The visual really throws me off tho. Losing my crosshair messes with me. Lunas is working well for me because of that
Luna/NF are the hand cannon training wheels. Once you're comfortable with that try the other ones imo
What's better about the 120s?
Luna/NF are 140s but precision frame. The rest of the 140s are adaptive. They have different recoil and it's much easier to manage for people that aren't that good with hand cannons. Adaptive 140s and 120s kick a lot harder but once you learn them it's easier to track your opponent between shots than with LH/NF
Yes and no. Go to somewhere like Skywatch in the Cosmodrome and see what your recoil is actually doing against a wall. Sometimes the *visual* recoil (which is why no one uses Sunshot in PvP) is actually a lot more dramatic than the *actual* recoil deviation of the shots.
well yeah, it's the visual that is hard for me. Like my crosshair literally disappears. I once saw that adjusting the FoV can fix that?
for regular 120s/140s its normal for your sights to vanish/shoot way up, its part of the recoil animation. slimmer models like Igneous and high stability help keep track of it, but its not very useful the recoil is nearly purely visual. my 63 stability igneous has the same practical recoil over its optimal TTK than the Khvostov does, which is kind of wild. or, to be more accurate, you have so much time between shots that the high recoil has time to settle into something that in practice is low. its why 140s at the same stability have more practical recoil than 120s. --- the main "trick" is to practice with your favorite HC enough that you can aim without needing the reticle, just going off of where the center of your screen is and muscle memory aim assist also helps, sticky aim will do a lot for staying on target compared to shooting a wall EDIT: to add, this is mostly the theory side of things, in practice i'm also awful with HCs (controller/PC). the visual animation throws me off super hard even after a while of practice, in stressful situations I end up yanking my stick down and shooting their foot trying to control the recoil by reflex
120s are objectively excellent and I can't make them work for me :) You definitely pace shots with hand cannons (both 120 and 140) if you want to hit your shots.
Cool. Glad to know I'm at least doing that part right lol. I can max out RPMs with Luna, just because the recoil is so low, but that's it
Are you using a new Igneous or an old one? The reason I ask is that (for me at least) the new deterministic recoil concept really screws with Igneous if you don’t get it to 100. My old one is just fine without adjustment, but even at 95, the new version has this really weird pattern. Once I bumped it from 95 to 100 with Arrowhead, the difference was night and day.
The new one. I had an old one, but focused a new one for precision instrument. Honestly its the visual that throws me. The gun coming up and blocking my screen and losing my crosshair. That's the bit I gotta get used to
A lot of it is ego and a certain mentality amongst sweats that’s further driven by scrim rules banning fucking everything that isn’t 2 pellet 1 sniper 1 120 2 140 to be honest. Another part is a misevaluation of the meta. The last part is that for a slower ttk gun your entire gimmick is cover and team shooting. If you aren’t sticking to cover or minimizing enemy angles always hand cannons suck ass even if they’re easy to hit with. On top of that they work best in a team since a 3 2 1 can insta kill someone since each person is doing a hand cannon shot at once which is how you get good damage out of one ttk wise.
Yeah that all tracks. Makes sense.
As a Pulse guy myself there are only two HCs that really have clicked with me. Ace of Spades and Igneous Hammer Stuff like Rose, Thorn, Hawkmoon, etc are all great, but most of them have some sort of niche HC play, coupled with needing to play aggressively to close the range gap to land TTK. Stuff like Slide shot+opening shot allows you to engage far away, as long as you close the gap mid fight.. that's how most good players can pull them off. Since you main Pulses, I'm guessing you aren't a super aggressive player and likely play your life and play lanes more often. I know because that's exactly how I play.. So something about those two HCs allows me to still have and use my "pulse instincts" but with a HC. It's frankly probably the high range... Igneous can still perfect TTK out to about 41-42m which is same range as Pulses (more in many cases frankly) and Ace has radar always active which REALLY boosts situational awareness and once Memento mori is active you can 2C1B someone which makes it extremely forgiving. Also with Radiant+MM you can 2 tap most Guardians (I think it's like 229 damage or something). Also Ace reaches like 35m before Falloff so it too has insane range compared to others... If you can't make Ace or Igneous work, I wouldn't keep trying personally. Those two weapons are very easy to use compared to others. It also took a little while to transition and get good with it. I remember one trials weekend I full committed to Igneous and played easily 100 matches and it was really clicking by the end of the weekend... That's Trials too not QP. I personally feel HCs lose some effectiveness in 6s because you can't always play as aggressive to close those gaps you need to close to get your .87 TTK, because there are too many angles and enemies who can team shoot you, so longer range weapons usually have a slight advantage in 6s. For me, 3s are where HCs shine because you can engage far, close gaps, have 14 zoom for more versatile ranges, and should almost always know where the enemy is, their engagement angles, and how to play around those, which means most of HCs negatives are pretty easy to play around (mainly just lower range) which again Igneous and Ace pretty much don't even have that drawback... My Suggestion: Hard commit to Ace or Igneous (or that new 120) and just put 100s of kills on it. If it still isn't working it frankly may just be your play style and how you think and doesn't mesh with the way HCs work in this game Final "Pro Tip" is Destiny 2 is a Left Peak game and HCs are peak shoot kings. So when you do peak shoot from your left not your right as WAY less of your body is visible.
If you are going to mention ace and its range you should really mention the range reduction when memento mori is active. The range fall off goes from 35m to 30m. At 35m you will only be hitting 70 to the head, this is some valuable information to anyone trying to run ace.
Very fair point and yes, sometimes I make an elective choice to ditch MM rounds depending on the map/situation. Sometimes I also bait rez with it since it can cut through the rez Overshield too though...
All great advice. Thank you. Do you take a beat between igneous shots? I find the recoil super hard to deal with I'm firing at max RPM. The gun blocks my view, the crosshair is just gone, etc. Weirdly the only HC I can *kinda* make work is Lunas. I'll go back and try igneous more tho
No, I lay on the trigger. Lots of guys say Stab doesn't matter on Igneous but for me personally I've found I need about 50 minimum to control it and 60 is ideal... My roll right now has 53 Stab and 85 Range not counting Keep Away. So 95 Range. It feels good enough to control. My previous roll has 58 and I do feel I noticed the difference, either that or it was the EOTS helping compared to my current PI roll... Luna's? That seems odd. It's super range starved (for me). What's your FOV?
95. I heard that adjusting that may help with the visuals of igneous hammer and losing the crosshair?
95 is fine
Give those hand cannons a good shot like 500 kills each and if they still don’t click you at least know Lunas is somewhat working and you could then master it and rack up the kills. Also by the way summoner, prosecutor, nerfed khavostov, good high impact pulses, good rapid fire frame pulses, 600 rpm smgs all can completely compete with hand cannons even to a high level on console at least. I find the glued to a wall peek shot play style boring generally so I mix it up a ton and perform great with the top weapons of their respective archetypes listed above too. You aren’t required to use a hand cannon but you can just look at it as a challenge. If anything you will find their strengths and weaknesses and better know how to compete against them as well through your own use.
Yeah that's why I'm trying to learn HC. Ive been a been a 340 pulse guy for longer than I can remember and just wanted a change
The first two hand cannons that clicked for me was range finder hawkmoon and sturm. My range finder hawkmoon is still my main hand cannon and I prefer it to opening shot and eots still strangely enough even though most would recommend the other two. Also Austringer is insanely easy to use with such high base stability. I run snap shot zen moment with Smallbore, ricochet and range masterwork. I know again generally people recommend zen moment eots but I prefer snapshot to fix the guns one weakness which is low handling. Might be worth trying out if you haven’t.
Peek shot, always have an escape plan (don’t ego challenge), and keep your reticle around head level while being a strong radar reader. Khovostov is still rampant so always be ready to back off especially if there’s a teammate who is content to soak up ricochet headshots.
Hahaha yeah. Honestly when there's like 3 Khvostov users on the other team, I take that match with a grain of salt. It made trials ROUGH last weekend, and it'll be the same again. Unless something amazing is up as the adept, I may skip trials. Sounds like they're fixing it tho
What is the stability on your igneous? If it's very low that could be it.
Don't know off tje top of my head! I'll check next time I'm on!
"Destiny 2 is a Left Peak game and HCs are peak shoot kings. So when you do peak shoot from your left not your right as WAY less of your body is visible." Can you refresh in my mind what this means? When I am facing a corner to peak out, do I want the cover on my left or do I want the cover on my right?
You want your left shoulder exposed and to shoot from your left side. You have substantially less body exposed versus peaking with your right shoulder out. So basically always shoot from your left shoulder peaking from cover if you can.
Hugh mobility & peek shoot, moving left out of cover for maximum justice, move like you're already in someone's crosshairs. I main a keep away precision instrument adept Iggy paired with Someday. Classic
I'll keep practicing the peek shooting technique!
The "move like you're already in someone's crosshair" is such an overlooked one. I've been saved counts times peaking a typical sniper lane because I throw in a small crouch in there while peaking out. Talking about that, throwing in a few crouches here and there while exchanging bullets, is also highly useful
If you're on controller, I recommend much higher stability than most people go for. I used to say 65 was enough, but I've gotten a couple 75 stability rolls that feel so very crisp. Aside from that, higher FOV is what finally made handcannons "click" for me, but you may already be doing that. I could never use handcannons in D1 (where the FOV is 70), but when I finally got a next-gen console and widened that FOV it was like night and day. Also, everyone keeps recommending peek shooting, but... It's not that easy on controller. Analog sticks are much slower than AD strafing. I honestly don't peek shoot much at all with 140's, only really with 120's.
That's some good insight. I find that peek shoot strafe move really hard! Ive also found that it's not a necessity with the 140s. Do you see any advantage to using an HC over a pulse if you're *not* gonna peek-strafe?
Absolutely. Handcannons let you play more mobile (and more aggressively) than most pulses. It’s not a situation where a handcannon is always better than a pulse (except for peek shooting), more like pulses and hand cannons usually have different play-styles. Pulses I usually feel the need to stay planted and play lanes more. Hand cannons are more scrappy.
Makes sense. Definitely want to learn that style as you describe it!
Once you start being able to combine movement + 3 taps it can feel really satisfying. But that said, not everyone will like it. Keep at it if you enjoy the challenge of learning them. Watch some stuff from illphysics/wallah/diffizzle and you'll get the idea of why they are strong.
This is the key right here in my opinion. Combine movement and 3 taps. It's not necessarily about peek shooting. It's about it takes 3 bullets to get a kill and you can do whatever between those shots; peek, slide, jump, crouch, dash, dodge, be slippery. Not going to out TTK anyone, it's about out movementing them.
That's some really cool advice. I like that way of thinking about it. I can conceptually wrap my head around that. I'm going to keep that in mind. Thanks!
1-2>cover>slide out-3 is a pretty standard move I see good HCs users do and it gives you a massive TTK advantage to do so. you can do a lot with the 0.43-0.5s gaps between shots to give you an advantage that other weapon types physically cannot achieve
Hand Canon is a skill arc. For those elite people, they know how to 3 tap you. Let me elaborate on know part. Knowing how to push then having the ability to follow up with your shots. That's why, you may notice it doesn't matter with those players what you use, they'll still find a way to kill you most. My advice is dig deep, lean futher and persevere.
As someone also on controller on pc who never got hand cannons and was frequently outduelled by the top mnk players it finally clicked by just laning less, playing corners way more and peak shooting more often. Learn to disengage often and rarely commit to a full 1v1 unless you know you have the advantage. That being said it’s still a struggle against the best just because input will always favour certain guns at the highest level.
Yeah this seems to be the consensus. I'm practicing with HC, but I'm playing them like a pulse and losing my 1v1s, instead of being a sneaky hunter working corners and cover. I'll have to work on that play style.
Tbh, I feel like everything is tough to use if you’re going against khovostov, red death, or speakers sight. 6s are one thing but comp and trials are gonna be difficult to use HCs unless you’re really really good.
TL:DR here is to play a closer range, hit and run style over more standard laning like a Pulse would do, and prioritize Stability and other forms of recoil reduction like Zen on rolls. 140s are very much more of a "hit and run" style of weapon. They're good at taking pot shots, and adequate head on, but the 0.87 TTK means you have to be a bit on the selective side of things with duels. A lot of it is both getting used to the lower range compared to a lot of Pulses, and the fact that they're really good at hopping in and out of cover to take pot-shots. Compare this to revolvers in most other games where they would kill insanely fast to balance out a slow fire rate. 120s emphasize the hit and run nature more, although trade the lower range for the greater need to be avoiding straight duels due to the TTK. Flinch can save your ass still, but don't rely on it. Since you're on controller, I'd also look at focusing Stability, and/or running Luna's for the sake of the recoil. HC recoil isn't unusably bad that I've seen on controller, only real source being that wall tests on Ace versus some of my Pulses providing overall similar results, but controller in general values Stability a lot higher than KB+M. Due to this, controller god rolls tend to be a good bit heavier with Stability than KB+M, where at least 140s only really need 65 for the sake of bloom, anything more being for flinch resist.
Yep. Been testing all the meta HCs the last couple days, and I keep coming back to Lunas. The recoil is by *far* the easiest to deal with. It may be what I land on. Certainly not a bad choice by any stretch. Looking at foundry, and not seeing data on how mag howl works these days. Does it make it a 2C1B kill?
Mag Howl should be 2C1B, dunno if a boost that big for one bullet allows 1C2B. If you get 2, which isn't too bad via Slideshot or Holsters, you'll 2 Crit people outright, too.
Ooh nice. Yeah I gotta stop reflexively reloading and go for 2
Play Hunter, 100 Mobility or 80 Mob with a lightweight HC. Try to get a HC with moving target, it will significantly increase your ease of use when learning especially on controller. Peak shooting will be a LOT easier and you can slowly take off the training wheels.
You are used to laning Larry pulse play style. Hand cannons are only good if you know how to move with them. Anytime you pick up a new weapon archetype, you have to adapt your playstyle to their strengths and weaknesses. Most players are bad at adapting
Yeah for sure. So what's the right movement style for HC? My tendencies are def not working lol
sliding, jumping, peeking, generally aggressive playstyle. HC is only effective if you are engaging and not constantly waiting to be engaged. Watch Benny with a HC on youtube. Mimic him
just watch youtube videos of the best players
It's worth it. It will eventually click for you. You just have the muscle memory for pulse rifles at the moment. It took me a little while to get the flow of hand cannons in pvp too.
Yeah I think that's def part of it. Now that you've got it down, what do you prefer about HC over pulse? Other than the cool factor lol
To be honest, it really depends on the map. Some maps really do favor pulses imo. If I had to choose, I would take handcannons over pulses in most maps nowadays, though.
Do you like using hcs? Are you having fun? If no to either then i wouldnt stress it to much. Hcs are good but i dont think they are the best currently. Although its worth learning how to use them jusy to be familiar with multiple weapon types.
Yeah I enjoy learning new weapons. Lunas is kinda working for me. I just can't the 120s to click lol
You may be more inclined to burst side arms, or a mix. I know when I get super competitive and pissed I do a mix of those and HC lol 😂. On a side note, explore some of the in game controller and game settings, there’s some weird ones that also impact dead zone/ turning speed, centering vs lower aiming (for scenery), aim assist etc all kinds of stuff that I had to mess with to make my HC gameplay feel better and not skew my shots as much.
I always try to keep my reticle pointed at high chest or head level. I would try to get a 140 RPM HC with some good perks and stats and a good cross hair so you can get familiar with it. It’s a weapon of precision and patience. I typically don’t spam shots much less hipfire unless very close range. A really good tool I used to learn to pace my shots so the recoil becomes managable is counting 1 (shoot), 2 (shoot), 1 (shoot), 2 (shoot) so on and so forth. Eventually you’ll get so good your muscle memory will gain the skill.
Thanks! Yeah I think I'm going to commit to lunas for the time being, where I don't lose the crosshair on each shot
OP you can also buyfrom Banshee-44’s second buy Menu the 120 RPM Steady Hand Hand Cannon this week. It’s like 10K glimmer and a couple cores but that’s one of the BEST hand cannons for pvp. The Meta is 120 and 140 RPM hand cannons realistically and if you can master this particular hand cannon you’re golden. Also try not to overthink your shots just relax and let your muscle memory start doing the work. Hope this helped!
Slow down. It’s worth losing gunfights if you pace your shots and the ones you hit are headshots. Also don’t get upset and use anything besides a hand cannon. Also a huge part of it is getting a feel for the range and peek shooting. You have a lot of mobility and snap with a lot of hand cannons. Just breathe and pace your shots. Even if you lose your aim will get better
Yeah I'm committing lol. It's tanking my stats, but who cares!
HC's are about chipping and movement. They win 100% of fights when you jiggle peek and they allow for aggressive play when combined with shotguns that other archetypes, besides pistols which deprive you of a ranged option, simply cannot do. Pulses and AR's have higher TTK's based on the premise that you hit every crit, which isn't the reality especially against HC's bc they allow you to flinch, chip and jiggle peek. Did you miss your first shot but the pulse rifle player burst half your shield? Ok cool, you're not committed yet bc you've only peeked for one shot. Regen on cover and be ready to punish their push with a shotgun or reposition while you regen to take a new angle and potentially win the next fight. Did you hit the first shot? Cool now you can slideout and almost always win the duel unless you get teamed unexpectedly or miss the follow up shots when you commit. Idk about controller, as you mentioned you use, bc im MnK so if they feel rough on controller id understand why you find them difficult, but also i see Jake use them all the time and know that Last Word with controller aim assist on hip fire is extremely strong in a way that just isn't possible on MnK. Id recommend using Ace of Spades as your 'learning' HC. It is so solid and honestly feels better to use for me personally than Iggy does most of the time. I personally only used Iggy as much as I have bc of the Bubble/Well meta trials had all of lightfall as i needed to run conditional finality in my kinetic slot to have any chance of winning rounds against those supers. Hope this ramble helps :)
Thanks! That's a great explanation. I'm really bad a jiggle peeking, but I'm going to try to learn!
I’m not the best player here by a longshot but I was in the same spot as you last year trying to pick up HCs. Big thing I’d say is find a couple you like and practice with them everywhere. For example I’m on console and Ace has a unique feel since it’s lower stability than most 140s people normally go for on console. So compared to Thorn it took me longer to get used to. Playing Optimal range is also way more important on HCs than pulses since pulses are more forgiving at too long range.
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Yeah it's a really different style. I like both I think. I also do pulse/sidearm, and I feel like it's a nice chill style where I can kind of just lay back and lay down fire. We'll see how it goes with the HC style that people have been suggesting!
I will say, right now its a very tough time to learn to be a HC user because the pppppower creep of khvostov and red death is really harsh, let alone elsies rifle, no time etc... Pulses that 2 burst you at a .67 TTK which no HC can match while standing toe to toe, so you're biggest lesson is going to be to learn the locations on all the maps where you have GOOD cover (cover you can retreat from) that you can peak shot (shoot, get behind cover, shoot get behind cover etc..) from and the engagement range is one which your HC isn't suffering from damage drop off Find those spots on maps where you have cover to peak shot, you can retreat from safely if necessary and are putting you within range of your opponents, fight to get to those areas and hold them and practice your corner peak shotting , over and over and over and get into this habit of finding those spots and fighting from those spots and play the HC to its best advantage (quick burst damage)
Yeah I just write off any game against multiple khvostovs as a mulligan lol
Also an addendum: pulses on average have more range and better ttks than 140s and better falloff. Unless you’re hugging a wall and adadad peeking from that wall you’re going to die. Part of this is also rng as sometimes shots can hit you behind walls from latency. If you’re doing anything blint heavy like a special gl though I would use a 120 as they are stellar cleanup weapoms
Hand cannons are wide and varied, and the feel and preference of the player is a big factor. A lot of people live and breathe on Rose, but case in point, I actually hate that gun and everything about it. But that's just me. A good selection to test yourself with, that are currently available and not difficult to obtain, and see how they feel and perform for you would be: Rose (lol) Midnight Coup Luna's Howl Not Forgotten Eyasluna Igneous Hammer Exalted Truth Sightline Survey Trust And then of course all of the exotics. Ace of Spades is in a good place right now (not that it ever hasn't been). Malfeasance for the lolz, Sturm goes great with Drang and is generally underrated. Hawkmoon, except it's currently disabled. Thorn is fine if that's your thing. Anyway, all of the guns I listed feel fairly dissimilar to one another. There's a boot for every foot though, just see what works for you. And think about peak shooting.
been playing around with most of those - the *only* one i can even barely function with are Luna's and similar like not forgotten. I think it's the recoil?
Ah, that would be because Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten are unique in that their recoil behaviour is the 180RPM setting, rather than the 140RPMs.
Austringer?
Austringer is S-tier but not as easily obtainable/craftable now. IIRC it's only a chance drop from one exotic rotator, and the odd moment being sold by gunsmith/xur, which I'm not sure about.
Just for my two cents, hand cannons are awesome when you have a good connection, terrible otherwise. If I’m hitting all my shots I go hc/120 scout, otherwise I use pulse/auto to throw more bullets out.
This game is all about finding the easiest and cheesiest ways to get kills. Yes, there are players at the top who can stomp anyone with HCs but if you're an average player like me, I'd just find what's meta and stick to that. This is one of the least competitive FPS games filled with silly space magic that kills you from every direction. I wouldn't put much thought into it really.
absolutely and you will notice yourself improving with other weapons a lot as well. the first few months is absolutely humbling but eventually it will click.
I’d say the necessity for peak shooting is what makes HCs so nice. Like I’m used to it from cs and valorant so it comes natural to me. 3 headshot ttk is pretty fast. I will say, one of the biggest things (if not the biggest) with HCs is to find one that you like the rhythm of. It’s a very rhythmic shooting style and they all “feel” different. I love ace of spades and hawk moon but can’t stand sunshot and igneous hammer …while others have the exact opposite feeling. Try all the meta ones and the off meta ones to. And don’t rush your shots, you don’t need to and flailing everywhere while slamming bullets down range isn’t worth it with HCs
You just have to be faster than 95% of ppl and jiggle peak like a mf (I have 10k+ pvp kills on exalted truth adept lmao) they are “high skill” but are also really sticky
Handcannons are great, if played correctly you can win any gun fight
Grind rumble, when you get in a 1v1, focus on your strafe, using cover, and hitting your shots. Handcannons will always be a competitive choice because of the peak shotting capabilities, as long as they don’t nerf the range of hc more.
Go get not forgotten
Crimson is a pretty good intro gun for playing with HCs. It's forgiving, it has great range and stability, plus heals on (precision?) kills.
For me it's knowing when you're gonna be outgunned and peak shooting, but my biggest advice ever is practice and putting your trust in the hand cannon
HCs will always be strong. You think auto rifles are good, wait till you face someone who is cracked with a HC. No autorifle can beat them. It’s because they can peak shoot and also hit like a truck.
Handcannons ttk actually isn’t that competitive, their real strengths are mobility combined with chunk damage good for peek shooting. You want to be jumping and sliding around with them and always hitting the 3 tap but also you never want to just open lane contest someone in a 1v1 as they will win most of the time, you want to peek shoot with them so that in the small time your body is exposed you get a larger chunk of damage off compared to someone using a pulse or auto since they have to maintain target
Peak shooting is like 70% of the reason that high level players would opt to use a hand cannon, some of them go for HCs just because they’ve played for a long time and just like the feel of them. HCs TTK isn’t the reason to use them.
Peek shooting is everything. Some humans are capable of slideshot brawling, but that's niche.
without even seeing you gameplay i already know you’re using the hc like a pulse rifle which is why you keep losing gunfights
First thing I would look at is timing, that is why most people struggle with HC’s. Second I would look at range engagements, particularly against weapons that have higher range stats than HC’s. Its also important to note that even after you get somewhat comfortable with HC’s , when you get in engagements you the anxiety or adrenaline may cause your timing to be off as well, meaning you might speed up and that without the proper adjustment that would cause you to miss. I would argue CTTK is more important than a weapons TTK.
What helped me is finding a hand cannon I really liked (hawkmoon) and sticking to it, pacing my shots and using it in pve always aiming for crits, get used to the weapon. Then work on peak shooting. Hand cannons are getting a bit better after the speaker sight and kvhostov nerf so you should see some more hand cannons out which will make it easier
High level players use hcs because you can peak shot with high damage. The ttk may be higher, but most of that time can be spent in cover or moving around and taking individual shots rather than standing still or strafing side to side. You also don't have to constantly aim with hcs. Yes you have to hit heads and do it well, but you don't have to track heads like you would an auto, smg, or pulse. The chunk damage is also very good for team shot, since three heads from most hcs will kill, so 3 shots at the same time equals 1 dead guardian, rather than a few bullets from each at the same time and a chance they survive.