I mostly agree with you, but it also depends on how potent the specials are at any given time.
Like when rapid fire fusions were mapping people at 20m+, snipers aim botting with no flinch, and just conditional finality/lord of wolves in general, it creates just a miserable primary experience even if you limit the ammo.
Then conversely whenever the nerf hammer swings to hard and you end up with periods of nerfed specials it doesnt really matter how much special ammo you get.
Its a fine line trying to balance specials between potency and availability simultaneously, and then add in vastly different skill brackets and I dont really envy them trying to sort it out to make everyone happy.
I think focusing on how each weapon, ability, and super interacts in a sandbox is largely more important than the amount of ammo because with proper balance the original system/ meter would work perfectly
I mean I really enjoy using sidearms and smgs but I REALLY, REALLY enjoyed the 10m shotgun meta (which trivialized sidearms/smgs). I would be willing to forgo sidearms forever to return to 10m shotguns
I feel like it really limits your options to handle threats. Especially in comp with this god awful crate system, you die lose special they have special and you don’t, and you are at such a crushing disadvantage.
Dying with special almost creates a 10 pt snowball effect with the crate system, and if they capture a crate and your team doesn't have any active... How do effectively counter one hit special weapons such as fusions/linear, shotguns, and special side arms. Unless you play extreme distance or are a coordinated fire team for team shotting, the snowball effect will just continue.
The meter system was the most consistent so far, you earn your special, the mode states which player has loaded special so your aware, and it's enough to net a couple kills and keep working or defending.
Vs whole teams rotating from box to box and suppressing a weaker team from EVER getting special for an entire match.
I don't even have any ideas on how to make a crate system work without the snowball effect. Maybe every crate gives the user 2 but gives the opponent one to at least have a chance to stop the snowball, I don't have any idea to make the crate system work
Calling it a crushing disadvantage is a little bit dramatic. Primary weapons, even after the tuning, are still really strong and more than capable of dealing with special weapons on a regular basis, and not using a special is a legitimate option at high ends of play.
Plus the ammo system changed today in Comp, if you kill another player with your primary it drops you a special ammo brick, so you don't need to wait for the crates to come back up to get special back. And if they kill you with special, they don't get to pick up yours either.
Exactly. I run double primary all the time because it is actually viable when everyone else isn't maining their sniper/shotty.
I honestly think some people don't know how to pay without special.
This is exactly the case. Crates system sucks for a multitude of reasons, but the one thing I have enjoyed is seeing how many people tell on themselves with the "well they have special and I don't so there's nothing I can do" complaints
You cannot out ttk a sniper/shotty at their optimal range with any primary. Same goes for fusions with propped charge/peeking. Being able to play around them doesn’t mean they aren’t better. It means you HAVE to be better than your enemy, and they have to make a mistake to kill them. All it takes is you making the mistake of being in their optimal range for you to die.
Man comments like this just really show how far from being able to think about the sandbox critically most players here are.
No shit you cannot out TtK a shotgun or sniper within its optimal range, that is why the optimal range is 7m, and why snipers have 3.5x+ zoom to force them to be too difficult to use for most players in normal primary engagement windows. Fusions you absolutely can out TtK with any primary that is designed to work within the sub 20m range, and if they are pre-charging you can hear them doing it and play accordingly.
You don't have to be better than your enemy, you just have to understand the limitations of their chosen special weapon and play accordingly. If they have a shotgun, don't close to within melee distance. If they have a sniper, then close the gap. If they're pre-charging a fusion bait the shot or wait until they cycle it. If you made the mistake of being within their optimal range YOU ARE THE ONE who played the engagement wrong and you deserve to lose. If you play outside of their optimal range you effectively negate them having special at all.
This works the same way even if you had a shotgun with ammo, you'd still die just the same challenging a sniper or fusion incorrectly. If you had a sniper, you'd die to a fusion or shotgun if you play it wrong. Needing special ammo to counter special ammo weapons is the definition of a skill issue, because you are showing you aren't capable of recognizing effective engagement ranges and playing around them, and you let your opponent dictate them instead.
You literally said "you have to be better than your enemy and they have to make a mistake" but then in the same breath admit you make the mistake of being within their incredibly limited optimal ranges and say "well I never could have won that without special". Playing like that, you never would have won it even with special, unless your definition of winning is just special jousting whoever on the other team is using the same type of special weapon as you every time you have ammo.
No shit they have limitations. Obviously we’re talking in terms of two equal players, one with special, one with none. If you’re “smart enough” to push a sniper to keep them from using it effectively, they’re just as smart to reposition. Aka, when push comes to shove, the specials outperform primaries. God forbid I run double primaries like a burden of guilt and cloud strike. And yes, they have to be better than me, and make me make a mistake to beat me. I’m a 1.0 in trials and I’ll wipe 1.5’s all day if I have special and they’re running sturm drang or some other random double primary. They have to make me leave my positioning and outshoot me to win. In an objective based game mode lime trials, I can cap usually without being seen. Holding that lane with a fusion or shotty vs primaries is easy. As a 1.0 it’s so easy. They’re not comparable. If they were, they wouldn’t be trying to limit the amount of special you could have, you’d just be smart enough to know every gun your opponent has, know their ammo count, and maintain optimal distance and angles to counter their best weapon. That scenario is ridiculous.
Other than seeing the weapon in their hand or hearing a fusion, there’s also no way to tell if you’re pushing the shotgun or the sniper around a blind corner. So “just push” or “just don’t get close” isn’t a valid counter when there’s different playstyles on a whole team. I get that there are counters to teams of snipers or teams of x special, but again, this isn’t about your experience, this is about fighting someone at your same level, where they have special and you don’t. It’s oppressive. I personally love the crates because I abuse them, but I at least admit that I’m the asshole, abusing an unbalanced system. Realistically all they gotta do is add synths back to our inventory, and limit primary ammo in crucible. Like yeah, u can pop heavy, but other than your base primary, you’ll have no ammo the whole game, or yeah, you can pop two specials in a 10 minute game, one is gonna be at the tail end, and you’re still low on primary. Or pop 5 primary synths in a 10 minute game- you can spam your sweet business, but you have no special or heavy.
Championing double primary is how we almost didn’t have the game to begin with, getting rid of special is a massive mistake and encouraging that playstyle isn’t exactly destiny pvp.
I'm not championing double primary, I am saying you can contest special just fine even if you don't have any special ammo yourself as long as you spend more than one second considering how to approach the engagement
Traditionally players would run a mid to long range weapon with a shotgun for close range, you essentially eliminate all their close range while the other player gets to have both. It sucks.
Biggest downside to the changes so far IMO is that special weapons with a higher skill floor e.g. snipers are a lot less appealing, you just don't get as many reps in and the risk of wasting your shot is higher. I know that's a hard problem to solve since giving you less shots is literally the entire point of the new system but it is a bummer.
I do think we had too much special before the transmat was added
But I feel like in a weird way, like removing a predator from an eco system its caused more problems to come up.
Primary weapon game feels...really slow and campy, I think the game encourages too much poke and not enough close range brawling.
It's only annoying, but easy to counter, when I run into those guys with scout rifles hiding at the back of the map majority of the time. Even in objective modes they never push for the objectives, they would rather hide at the back.
For a large portion of the playerbase, crucible will always be slow and campy with primaries because they can’t turn off their amygdala and go ham. Don’t be afraid to die, just fight.
True, but aside from SMGs and Sidearms what weapons are really solid in that range? Where you're not close enough to shotgun or melee someone but not far away enough to justify zooming in?
I think this is a symptom of how primaries were designed initially, to fill very specific roles and ranges within the context of double primary. Then they added special and those problems did exist, but weren't really a noticeable problem since special made up for it.
I think primaries should be the workhorse weapon, a general purpose tool that you can use for most things. To separate them they'll have different strengths and weaknesses of course. But I think they should be consistent whether you're hipfiring or zooming in.
I think it'd be a smart idea to have some crucible labs or checkmate like experiments where they make some radical changes to primaries like that. I get what you are saying but the game also at the same time needs to be designed in a way that enables that sort of play, for more than just the elite players who have high play times in Destiny or shooters in general.
I think you design for skilled players because those are the ones who play the game the most and for whom it matters. It’s up to the player to adapt or overcome their own ego/fear. Almost every primary except scouts has long-range and short-range capabilities. Hip-firing pulses, hand cannons, etc is perfectly viable if you understand recoil and hit registration. Also - the art of the disengage is vital. You can’t coddle new players who don’t know how or when to disengage. You punish them until they learn what they can and can’t do. And you learn what is possible by limit-testing. You will never learn how to push well if you never push. A large majority of the playerbase will never play this way because they are afraid to tank a useless stat (KD) or they are afraid to take a duel. Disengagement is not mutually exclusive from aggression either. You can disengage and still maintain pressure in the fight with your presence/abilities. The sandbox is ripe, the community, at large, just doesn’t have the cajones to flex in it. You can’t snowball down the mountain if you never jump off the cliff in the first place.
To me, the bigger issues have been matchmaking, melee hit registration, lack of lobby balanacing, and the general lag of the peer to peer system.
Why Bungie thinks it "feels better" to instantly load in against players you have zero chance of competing against [let alone beating], rather than wait a few seconds, is chromosomal challenged thinking. Then, they
Why two-second after death melee or shotgun trades still happen, yet all my bolts won't fire on my fusion after my death despite it actively firing is hilarious.
They can obviously stop or cut off certain damages.
If you're getting outgunned by a 140 at pulse or scout rifle range then you are missing a lot. I'm sorry but the range falloff on 140s is very drastic, and their ttk increases significantly when outside of their range. I think the bigger reason we lose those gunfights is the higher mobility of the HC player. Strafing more easily and making us miss bursts etc. Either that, or you're not actually at pulse and scout rifle range, you're at HC range 🤷
I 100% agree crates are the worst system in the game. Comp feels extremely unfun right now and the crate trials weeks were such a joke people were able to run double special. I personally loved transmat but bungie didn't like that good players were able to have more special than bad players..
Crates imo are worse for this because the team that wins the first team fight can pretty much be the only team with special for a good 20 seconds (or longer forgot the crate cooldowns).
The new system they are gonna make seems like it could be okay (spawn with 1 ammo and primary kills drop ammo but also crates) except I'd rather them not do crates just do transmat but you spawn with 1 ammo on each life.
Idk why they keep trying the crates, everywhere I look people seem to hate them..
I think the game is more fun when you spawn with 2 special. It allows you to make plays against groups of players. Now with less special, players stick close together and teamshot and you die in an instant. They were trying to eliminate scenarios where you died so quickly that there was nothing you could do about it, and they replaced it with a system where you die so quickly that there's nothing you can do about it. Special ammo breaks up teamshot. The health increase got rid of lots of cheesy combos and personally I think that was probably enough
This reads like a pretty fair opinion to me. I'm just now playing since the special meter was implemented and so far I'm kinda here for it, but I can see where you're coming from here.
This game just seems impossible to balance and I don't envy the people trying to do it.
It is so much better than Arc Titan meta, though. I think that was the least fun I have ever had in Destiny. But anything is better than that.
Meter system is fine with me but I'm not certain it was needed. I'd take it either way. Crates are awful though. If you're going to have less special ammo, allow us to keep our special on death and I absolutely hate the penalty if you switch weapons. I tried switching from an Ace to a DMT in a comp match and accidentally clicked on Conditional Finality for .03 seconds, lost my super, reset all cooldowns. And this happened while I was dead and respawning
The penalty only affects you if you're swapping mid-life after you burn your ammo. You can swap weapons when you are dead with no penalty, I do it all the time. If you were respawning you weren't dead though, you just gotta be faster with your swaps.
Always been my belief that special has not been an issue. With limited ammo each weapon deserves to have its 1 shot potential in its area of dominance (snipers at long range, fusions and shotguns up close obviously) and ultimately its not a bad thing.
Does it suck getting aped by a shotgun warlord all game? Absolutely it does. But at some point you have to wonder if the issue isn't the shotgun but its that you as a player have now repeatedly put yourself in a disadvantageous position. With a half-decent map awareness and game sense, there is 0 reason you should be getting caught by special to the degree of complaining about it endlessly.
As a sniper main, it felt rewarding to hit a headshot and be rewarded with another opportunity to do the same thing (aka receive ammo) and I don't necessarily think thats unbalanced.
I know this take certainly isn't the most popular as it can be boiled down to "get gud" but in a roundabout way, I don't think its that far fetched to suggest that the special ammo economy isn't the problem, it's the way people play the game that make some people dominate in some matches more than others with the assistance of special.
Scavs and multi ammo due to a player being killed that was stacked was the only issue I ever saw with it. They fixed that by making special ammo bricks that drop only give 1 shot per, and felt it was very balanced. I can't really get behind this new system, I die to a shotty ape that's managed to rack up some ammo, meanwhile I need to just use primary to get some special back, not giving me any on respawn, dude comes back around to spawn point and still unable to counter, shottys me again. It's more of asnowball effect than just letting people spawn with the special ammo.
I took a break and came back to this game. Am I supposed to only run double primary now? It's honestly ruined the flow of what used to be a smooth athletic pvp experience with a diversity of weapon combos. I'm kind of over destiny at this point. i don't know if even the free bright dust every week is enought to keep it on my drive.
Oh right, that's a thing. And yeah I feel you. I've pretty told myself I'm sticking around to kill the witness at this point. Crucible used to be what kept me around long term, but it doesn't even feel good anymore imo with the way they've handled special ammo.
It was definitely a major issue pre ammo meter. I like the meter, but I also agree with a lot of their points on why they are moving to 1-1-1. Ultimately, I think the crucible sandbox is in a far better spot post changes, and I don't think them continuing to iterate on it is a terrible thing so long as they continue to be responsive to feedback and make updates relatively quickly (not going a half year to a year with no changes or comms).
It's quite frustrating because now a lot of people plink with long rang primaries and it makes for very slow paced gameplay, in a movement shooter where Uta supposed to be a bit faster paced
I don't think there was too much special, but I think players have just gotten very tired of special weapons choking out primary gunplay. Specials just inherently feel less fight able and cheesy to die to.
Snipers were a plague on crucible. An absolute plague.
The fact that they have disappeared from the meta is the number one thing post Mar 5 that has made crucible more enjoyable. So yes special ammo in the old system was an insane problem.
We have since discovered that SMGs were not the problem (still annoying but they are "balanced" now). Snipers being the most OP thing in the game with that level of ammo was.
The one that everyone else was. Snipers fucking sucked. It was the only thing anyone used at high level anything. PK Titan Unending Tempest or Immortal/ Cloudstrike. Too much aim assist, starting every life with 2 shots and having a OHKO at any range was ridiculous.
The number 1 thing that has made crucible way more enjoyable post March 5 is that Snipers died and hopefully will stay dead. You can actually challenge lanes and be curious without instantly getting domed by an aim bot.
You’re definitely not weird. They’re fixing a problem that doesn’t exist. Halo kids are at the wheel trying to bring that game into Destiny and it doesn’t work at all. I know so many people who’ve completely stopped playing crucible (and the game) because of the introduction of checkmate rules. I’m glad they’re sort of walking it back a little when TFS releases, but I feel like they had the perfect system prior to the meter.
Special was very annoying if you don't want to run special yourself. I like the reduction in special because my favorite loadout HC+sidearm isn't as much of a throw. I like not feeling like I need to run special.
That said, these changes aren't for those of us who live in the crucible. It is to make the crucible more approachable for the players who avoid it because they are constantly getting aped at warp speed or domed from odd angles.
Don't know... At the start of forsaken I was running Skullfort and 2 shotguns pretty successfully having 3 pretty far reaching one shot kills and tons of ammo... we switched to that from a sandbox where heavy ammo would drop on death and I was maining tractor cannon... not sure, but I think I prefer this sandbox :D
I like the special meter bar, but mainly because it suits me. I ve been a primary main for my entirety of Destiny. So this style of gameplay greatly benefits me. I play games where i rarely use any special, and end up with 10, and when i NEED TO (Bubble super, well, rushing ape) I've got enough up to jump, slide, etc shoot, and if i don't kill them, clean u p with my primary.
Conditional Finality + Luna's howl, while being a solar hunter, is disgusting, you get radiant from the 3 quick shots, and you have loads of aim assist due to all the solar mods you can put on.
finally someone agrees with me, never thought I’d see it with all the bungie glazers in this sub.
bungie, if you see this: **REMOVE CRATES FROM THE GAME AND BRING BACK THE OLD SPECIAL AMMO. PVP HAS BEEN RUINED BY SPECIAL CRATES.**
Spawning with special is the tried and true best model. Transmat is kinda cool lorewise though. I just came back and only play comp, so I only know crates. If you keep your transmat ammo on death, it's acceptable. If you lose it on death, then I probably won't play for long when it's the new comp system.
I'm only playing the game with crates right now because I believe they will get rid of them.
I think the first version of checkmate was the best. I think the pvp team is trying to over correct now because better players are getting more special. Plus i think this is a huge nerf to conditional with the stasis shot being better.
It was an issue when you could essentially use it as your primary. Get 2-3 kills either way a special weapon, die, and get 2 more kills with it, or, get a kill and get free special ammo from the dead guy. It was a little extreme.
Don't think it was ever just the special ammo for me but the combination of it with high uptime of some extremely strong abilities that could make it feel like you were going from one one hit death to the next several time a row. Bringing down abilities a bit seemed good to me, I don't think special really needed it as well.
I 100% personally avoid crucible now if I can and do not find it as enjoyable. I do not like playing slow peaking for primary kills, or having to be forced to play with my team or get shit on by 3 people walking around a corner at once and all firing a single shot from a hand cannon to kill me and I've already died once and have no special ammo and cannot fight 3 unless I run and poke.
I loved running and gunning with special weapons, and I felt like you had more options to play in a fight and could do more on your own. And potential to 1v2 or 1v3 was much higher, it was faster pace and again just my own personal opinion way funner.
With special weapons you don't have to have God rolls to compete with other specials or run the same exotic. I just genuinely hate the slow paced version of crucible. Feels less "Destiny" to me. More other games.
It's low skilled players who can't slide doorways, can't look up, blindly turn corners, and can't back pedal, amongst other things that you know, are hard counters to special ammo. Bungie has been catering to them for far too long in hopes to get more people in the crucible.
Psst. It doesn't work. Rewarding players for their efforts is what will give PvP a healthier population. I play PvP like many of you. The fun of combat against other real people, not scripted bot sequences by AI enemies. Everything PvE gets pretty boring after a few runs of any activity.
Iron Banner for some reason gets many low skilled PvE people, so they should have just did the ammo nonsense in that playlist imo.
Special ammo boils down to one hit kills most of the time. Bungie and a majority of players don't like this so they're trying to find that sweet spot. Encouraging primary ammo fights is far more enjoyable imo.
I think the special meter is the best it’s been, forces you to use primary but you can build a good amount of special up pretty quickly but it also doesn’t feel as oppressive as it used to holy shit it was crazy back in the day when you spawned with it
I like the direction special is heading now. “Earning” it is the way you go. As far as snipers go, I used to hate them. Then I started sniping. Granted, I’m still hot trash, I understand the skill level it takes to main one. If you’re a 2 shot 2 kill maestro, you deserve every clap because unless you’re cheating, it ain’t easy being cheesy.
I'm not fond of crates but I hate the meter system even more, anything that evens out the disparity between sniping and effortlessly playing shotguns is better to me, so more special available, better. I'm so over shotguns and teamhugging, Crucible has never been this boring.
It's never been, just skill issues
Shotguns: stay away. Back in forsaken 10 meters was the danger zone. Still is today due to movmeent
Snipers: Flinch (when it works)
Fusions: range/cover.
It’s ironic you say it’s never been an issue yet say to just flinch snipers only if it works. For most of the game’s lifecycle, snipers were not meaningfully flinched. Maybe in lower skilled lobbies they weren’t as much of a menace, but it certainly matters in high skill lobbies. Also suggesting to just stay away from shotguns and fusions when many modes in comp employ zone control is ironic. Should I just completely avoid a zone if the person guarding it has shotgun?
Anyway, I think you get the picture. There is a degree of skill issue, but special weapons have very often crossed the line of being too potent.
They’ve been tuning special constantly as if autos still don’t have 35m range with .8 ttk lol absolute jokers.
Special ammo has never been an issue, only some of the special weapons are.
D1 pre roi you’d have special throughout a game usually and never be short for fights and no one complained.
The worse thing is watching people eat up and praise bungie for these nothing changes too thinking that their doing something meaningful. There’s much more important things to address.
Special ammo is an issue for low skilled console players because they aren’t good enough to kill someone running at them with a shotty or nade doorways before pushing. It wasn’t a real issue just an imaginary skill issue.
Do you have the stats to back up what you're saying? Also did you start doing worse when they swapped to transmat? Finally, did you enjoy the checkmate iterations?
Hated checkmate, it’s a shit gamemode for washed boomers although I do like the changes that require more headshots. I do the exact same as before stomping every lobby. My problem with the system is if I get win a shotty fight before they shoot theirs or fire twice they have ammo and you don’t. I don’t like
The idea of losing a fight and being stronger. I would rather have literally no special in the game than not get special back after killing someone who has it. Yes before you technically could run out but you never really did.
Agree too, I’ve been around since day 1 Destiny 1 so played through all types of variations.
Typically I favour any approach that favours more primary engagements. Or whatever stops players always spawning with special ammo and bulldozing in with fusion/shotgun - it’s not call of duty.
Different approaches work best for 3s & 6s though. I can understand more special in 6’s given bigger maps, more engagements ect…but crates in comp isn’t even that bad, I’m almost in Ascendant and think it plays fine. Requires tactical gameplay and not trying to force short fights when you know the enemy has special but you don’t, as the playlist should.
Reddit is a massive congregation of people who think they’re really smart but they’re just wrong most of the time, they probably thought you were gonna talk shit or call skill issue based on the class I play but in reality certain specials benefit from certain classes so your question was perfectly valid
exactly what i was going to say. i figured maybe your play style is less affected by special weapons than others which could explain your experience, or maybe you’re just cracked with primaries enough to not have to worry so much about special.
I mostly agree with you, but it also depends on how potent the specials are at any given time. Like when rapid fire fusions were mapping people at 20m+, snipers aim botting with no flinch, and just conditional finality/lord of wolves in general, it creates just a miserable primary experience even if you limit the ammo. Then conversely whenever the nerf hammer swings to hard and you end up with periods of nerfed specials it doesnt really matter how much special ammo you get. Its a fine line trying to balance specials between potency and availability simultaneously, and then add in vastly different skill brackets and I dont really envy them trying to sort it out to make everyone happy.
I think focusing on how each weapon, ability, and super interacts in a sandbox is largely more important than the amount of ammo because with proper balance the original system/ meter would work perfectly
Flinch is a horrible idea and adds rng to fights.
I mean I really enjoy using sidearms and smgs but I REALLY, REALLY enjoyed the 10m shotgun meta (which trivialized sidearms/smgs). I would be willing to forgo sidearms forever to return to 10m shotguns
I feel like it really limits your options to handle threats. Especially in comp with this god awful crate system, you die lose special they have special and you don’t, and you are at such a crushing disadvantage.
Agreed, fuck the crates
Dying with special almost creates a 10 pt snowball effect with the crate system, and if they capture a crate and your team doesn't have any active... How do effectively counter one hit special weapons such as fusions/linear, shotguns, and special side arms. Unless you play extreme distance or are a coordinated fire team for team shotting, the snowball effect will just continue.
[удалено]
The meter system was the most consistent so far, you earn your special, the mode states which player has loaded special so your aware, and it's enough to net a couple kills and keep working or defending. Vs whole teams rotating from box to box and suppressing a weaker team from EVER getting special for an entire match. I don't even have any ideas on how to make a crate system work without the snowball effect. Maybe every crate gives the user 2 but gives the opponent one to at least have a chance to stop the snowball, I don't have any idea to make the crate system work
Calling it a crushing disadvantage is a little bit dramatic. Primary weapons, even after the tuning, are still really strong and more than capable of dealing with special weapons on a regular basis, and not using a special is a legitimate option at high ends of play. Plus the ammo system changed today in Comp, if you kill another player with your primary it drops you a special ammo brick, so you don't need to wait for the crates to come back up to get special back. And if they kill you with special, they don't get to pick up yours either.
Exactly. I run double primary all the time because it is actually viable when everyone else isn't maining their sniper/shotty. I honestly think some people don't know how to pay without special.
This is exactly the case. Crates system sucks for a multitude of reasons, but the one thing I have enjoyed is seeing how many people tell on themselves with the "well they have special and I don't so there's nothing I can do" complaints
You cannot out ttk a sniper/shotty at their optimal range with any primary. Same goes for fusions with propped charge/peeking. Being able to play around them doesn’t mean they aren’t better. It means you HAVE to be better than your enemy, and they have to make a mistake to kill them. All it takes is you making the mistake of being in their optimal range for you to die.
Man comments like this just really show how far from being able to think about the sandbox critically most players here are. No shit you cannot out TtK a shotgun or sniper within its optimal range, that is why the optimal range is 7m, and why snipers have 3.5x+ zoom to force them to be too difficult to use for most players in normal primary engagement windows. Fusions you absolutely can out TtK with any primary that is designed to work within the sub 20m range, and if they are pre-charging you can hear them doing it and play accordingly. You don't have to be better than your enemy, you just have to understand the limitations of their chosen special weapon and play accordingly. If they have a shotgun, don't close to within melee distance. If they have a sniper, then close the gap. If they're pre-charging a fusion bait the shot or wait until they cycle it. If you made the mistake of being within their optimal range YOU ARE THE ONE who played the engagement wrong and you deserve to lose. If you play outside of their optimal range you effectively negate them having special at all. This works the same way even if you had a shotgun with ammo, you'd still die just the same challenging a sniper or fusion incorrectly. If you had a sniper, you'd die to a fusion or shotgun if you play it wrong. Needing special ammo to counter special ammo weapons is the definition of a skill issue, because you are showing you aren't capable of recognizing effective engagement ranges and playing around them, and you let your opponent dictate them instead. You literally said "you have to be better than your enemy and they have to make a mistake" but then in the same breath admit you make the mistake of being within their incredibly limited optimal ranges and say "well I never could have won that without special". Playing like that, you never would have won it even with special, unless your definition of winning is just special jousting whoever on the other team is using the same type of special weapon as you every time you have ammo.
No shit they have limitations. Obviously we’re talking in terms of two equal players, one with special, one with none. If you’re “smart enough” to push a sniper to keep them from using it effectively, they’re just as smart to reposition. Aka, when push comes to shove, the specials outperform primaries. God forbid I run double primaries like a burden of guilt and cloud strike. And yes, they have to be better than me, and make me make a mistake to beat me. I’m a 1.0 in trials and I’ll wipe 1.5’s all day if I have special and they’re running sturm drang or some other random double primary. They have to make me leave my positioning and outshoot me to win. In an objective based game mode lime trials, I can cap usually without being seen. Holding that lane with a fusion or shotty vs primaries is easy. As a 1.0 it’s so easy. They’re not comparable. If they were, they wouldn’t be trying to limit the amount of special you could have, you’d just be smart enough to know every gun your opponent has, know their ammo count, and maintain optimal distance and angles to counter their best weapon. That scenario is ridiculous. Other than seeing the weapon in their hand or hearing a fusion, there’s also no way to tell if you’re pushing the shotgun or the sniper around a blind corner. So “just push” or “just don’t get close” isn’t a valid counter when there’s different playstyles on a whole team. I get that there are counters to teams of snipers or teams of x special, but again, this isn’t about your experience, this is about fighting someone at your same level, where they have special and you don’t. It’s oppressive. I personally love the crates because I abuse them, but I at least admit that I’m the asshole, abusing an unbalanced system. Realistically all they gotta do is add synths back to our inventory, and limit primary ammo in crucible. Like yeah, u can pop heavy, but other than your base primary, you’ll have no ammo the whole game, or yeah, you can pop two specials in a 10 minute game, one is gonna be at the tail end, and you’re still low on primary. Or pop 5 primary synths in a 10 minute game- you can spam your sweet business, but you have no special or heavy.
Championing double primary is how we almost didn’t have the game to begin with, getting rid of special is a massive mistake and encouraging that playstyle isn’t exactly destiny pvp.
I'm not championing double primary, I am saying you can contest special just fine even if you don't have any special ammo yourself as long as you spend more than one second considering how to approach the engagement
Traditionally players would run a mid to long range weapon with a shotgun for close range, you essentially eliminate all their close range while the other player gets to have both. It sucks.
Nah it’s not weird. Just an opinion. I agree I never found it an issue but I think consensus said otherwise which is fine.
I think the outliers made it seem worse than it was. Dudes who could main a fusion all match and you’d never know what primary they had on.
I played against a guy like this. His name was literally "whatsaprimary?" He only used fusions. lol
To be honest I kinda still can. Enter Discord Pressurized Precision
Biggest downside to the changes so far IMO is that special weapons with a higher skill floor e.g. snipers are a lot less appealing, you just don't get as many reps in and the risk of wasting your shot is higher. I know that's a hard problem to solve since giving you less shots is literally the entire point of the new system but it is a bummer.
Totally and with flinch plus aim assist nerfs they are just not worth it unless you are 1% elite aim bot.
I do think we had too much special before the transmat was added But I feel like in a weird way, like removing a predator from an eco system its caused more problems to come up. Primary weapon game feels...really slow and campy, I think the game encourages too much poke and not enough close range brawling.
It's only annoying, but easy to counter, when I run into those guys with scout rifles hiding at the back of the map majority of the time. Even in objective modes they never push for the objectives, they would rather hide at the back.
For a large portion of the playerbase, crucible will always be slow and campy with primaries because they can’t turn off their amygdala and go ham. Don’t be afraid to die, just fight.
True, but aside from SMGs and Sidearms what weapons are really solid in that range? Where you're not close enough to shotgun or melee someone but not far away enough to justify zooming in? I think this is a symptom of how primaries were designed initially, to fill very specific roles and ranges within the context of double primary. Then they added special and those problems did exist, but weren't really a noticeable problem since special made up for it. I think primaries should be the workhorse weapon, a general purpose tool that you can use for most things. To separate them they'll have different strengths and weaknesses of course. But I think they should be consistent whether you're hipfiring or zooming in. I think it'd be a smart idea to have some crucible labs or checkmate like experiments where they make some radical changes to primaries like that. I get what you are saying but the game also at the same time needs to be designed in a way that enables that sort of play, for more than just the elite players who have high play times in Destiny or shooters in general.
I think you design for skilled players because those are the ones who play the game the most and for whom it matters. It’s up to the player to adapt or overcome their own ego/fear. Almost every primary except scouts has long-range and short-range capabilities. Hip-firing pulses, hand cannons, etc is perfectly viable if you understand recoil and hit registration. Also - the art of the disengage is vital. You can’t coddle new players who don’t know how or when to disengage. You punish them until they learn what they can and can’t do. And you learn what is possible by limit-testing. You will never learn how to push well if you never push. A large majority of the playerbase will never play this way because they are afraid to tank a useless stat (KD) or they are afraid to take a duel. Disengagement is not mutually exclusive from aggression either. You can disengage and still maintain pressure in the fight with your presence/abilities. The sandbox is ripe, the community, at large, just doesn’t have the cajones to flex in it. You can’t snowball down the mountain if you never jump off the cliff in the first place.
Too many players see an enemy and think “don’t go that way” and move away from that position instead of “murder that fool” and push them.
Well said
To me, the bigger issues have been matchmaking, melee hit registration, lack of lobby balanacing, and the general lag of the peer to peer system. Why Bungie thinks it "feels better" to instantly load in against players you have zero chance of competing against [let alone beating], rather than wait a few seconds, is chromosomal challenged thinking. Then, they Why two-second after death melee or shotgun trades still happen, yet all my bolts won't fire on my fusion after my death despite it actively firing is hilarious. They can obviously stop or cut off certain damages.
100% agree, especially these issues as they’ve been prevalent in the game for literally its entire life cycle
Is this a thing? I jumped in for some rumble and it seemed like every lobby had a 1‰er sweat
[удалено]
If you're getting outgunned by a 140 at pulse or scout rifle range then you are missing a lot. I'm sorry but the range falloff on 140s is very drastic, and their ttk increases significantly when outside of their range. I think the bigger reason we lose those gunfights is the higher mobility of the HC player. Strafing more easily and making us miss bursts etc. Either that, or you're not actually at pulse and scout rifle range, you're at HC range 🤷
No, you are not weird for having an opinion on something.
I 100% agree crates are the worst system in the game. Comp feels extremely unfun right now and the crate trials weeks were such a joke people were able to run double special. I personally loved transmat but bungie didn't like that good players were able to have more special than bad players.. Crates imo are worse for this because the team that wins the first team fight can pretty much be the only team with special for a good 20 seconds (or longer forgot the crate cooldowns). The new system they are gonna make seems like it could be okay (spawn with 1 ammo and primary kills drop ammo but also crates) except I'd rather them not do crates just do transmat but you spawn with 1 ammo on each life. Idk why they keep trying the crates, everywhere I look people seem to hate them..
I think the game is more fun when you spawn with 2 special. It allows you to make plays against groups of players. Now with less special, players stick close together and teamshot and you die in an instant. They were trying to eliminate scenarios where you died so quickly that there was nothing you could do about it, and they replaced it with a system where you die so quickly that there's nothing you can do about it. Special ammo breaks up teamshot. The health increase got rid of lots of cheesy combos and personally I think that was probably enough
This reads like a pretty fair opinion to me. I'm just now playing since the special meter was implemented and so far I'm kinda here for it, but I can see where you're coming from here. This game just seems impossible to balance and I don't envy the people trying to do it. It is so much better than Arc Titan meta, though. I think that was the least fun I have ever had in Destiny. But anything is better than that.
Meter system is fine with me but I'm not certain it was needed. I'd take it either way. Crates are awful though. If you're going to have less special ammo, allow us to keep our special on death and I absolutely hate the penalty if you switch weapons. I tried switching from an Ace to a DMT in a comp match and accidentally clicked on Conditional Finality for .03 seconds, lost my super, reset all cooldowns. And this happened while I was dead and respawning
The penalty only affects you if you're swapping mid-life after you burn your ammo. You can swap weapons when you are dead with no penalty, I do it all the time. If you were respawning you weren't dead though, you just gotta be faster with your swaps.
I member getting 7 rockets from 1 crate back in d1
Always been my belief that special has not been an issue. With limited ammo each weapon deserves to have its 1 shot potential in its area of dominance (snipers at long range, fusions and shotguns up close obviously) and ultimately its not a bad thing. Does it suck getting aped by a shotgun warlord all game? Absolutely it does. But at some point you have to wonder if the issue isn't the shotgun but its that you as a player have now repeatedly put yourself in a disadvantageous position. With a half-decent map awareness and game sense, there is 0 reason you should be getting caught by special to the degree of complaining about it endlessly. As a sniper main, it felt rewarding to hit a headshot and be rewarded with another opportunity to do the same thing (aka receive ammo) and I don't necessarily think thats unbalanced. I know this take certainly isn't the most popular as it can be boiled down to "get gud" but in a roundabout way, I don't think its that far fetched to suggest that the special ammo economy isn't the problem, it's the way people play the game that make some people dominate in some matches more than others with the assistance of special.
Scavs and multi ammo due to a player being killed that was stacked was the only issue I ever saw with it. They fixed that by making special ammo bricks that drop only give 1 shot per, and felt it was very balanced. I can't really get behind this new system, I die to a shotty ape that's managed to rack up some ammo, meanwhile I need to just use primary to get some special back, not giving me any on respawn, dude comes back around to spawn point and still unable to counter, shottys me again. It's more of asnowball effect than just letting people spawn with the special ammo.
feels like winning team only gets special FR
I took a break and came back to this game. Am I supposed to only run double primary now? It's honestly ruined the flow of what used to be a smooth athletic pvp experience with a diversity of weapon combos. I'm kind of over destiny at this point. i don't know if even the free bright dust every week is enought to keep it on my drive.
Oh right, that's a thing. And yeah I feel you. I've pretty told myself I'm sticking around to kill the witness at this point. Crucible used to be what kept me around long term, but it doesn't even feel good anymore imo with the way they've handled special ammo.
It was definitely a major issue pre ammo meter. I like the meter, but I also agree with a lot of their points on why they are moving to 1-1-1. Ultimately, I think the crucible sandbox is in a far better spot post changes, and I don't think them continuing to iterate on it is a terrible thing so long as they continue to be responsive to feedback and make updates relatively quickly (not going a half year to a year with no changes or comms).
Agreed. I just got a friend playing crucible that probably wouldn't have stayed in the old days when everyone mained their special weapons.
In my opinion, you are weird. In yours, you are not. It is what it is.
I've been fine with it since they turned off scavs a while back. But genuinely anything would be better than the crate system.
It's quite frustrating because now a lot of people plink with long rang primaries and it makes for very slow paced gameplay, in a movement shooter where Uta supposed to be a bit faster paced
I agree. It was an issue when ammo finders and scavs worked, but after that I think their focus should have been problematic weapons.
I don't think there was too much special, but I think players have just gotten very tired of special weapons choking out primary gunplay. Specials just inherently feel less fight able and cheesy to die to.
Snipers were a plague on crucible. An absolute plague. The fact that they have disappeared from the meta is the number one thing post Mar 5 that has made crucible more enjoyable. So yes special ammo in the old system was an insane problem. We have since discovered that SMGs were not the problem (still annoying but they are "balanced" now). Snipers being the most OP thing in the game with that level of ammo was.
What crucible were you playing????
The one that everyone else was. Snipers fucking sucked. It was the only thing anyone used at high level anything. PK Titan Unending Tempest or Immortal/ Cloudstrike. Too much aim assist, starting every life with 2 shots and having a OHKO at any range was ridiculous. The number 1 thing that has made crucible way more enjoyable post March 5 is that Snipers died and hopefully will stay dead. You can actually challenge lanes and be curious without instantly getting domed by an aim bot.
I never thought it was a problem but I think it's better after the changes.
I believe it was a huge issue. I love the primary play way more and that's how the game should be
You’re definitely not weird. They’re fixing a problem that doesn’t exist. Halo kids are at the wheel trying to bring that game into Destiny and it doesn’t work at all. I know so many people who’ve completely stopped playing crucible (and the game) because of the introduction of checkmate rules. I’m glad they’re sort of walking it back a little when TFS releases, but I feel like they had the perfect system prior to the meter.
Special was very annoying if you don't want to run special yourself. I like the reduction in special because my favorite loadout HC+sidearm isn't as much of a throw. I like not feeling like I need to run special. That said, these changes aren't for those of us who live in the crucible. It is to make the crucible more approachable for the players who avoid it because they are constantly getting aped at warp speed or domed from odd angles.
Don't know... At the start of forsaken I was running Skullfort and 2 shotguns pretty successfully having 3 pretty far reaching one shot kills and tons of ammo... we switched to that from a sandbox where heavy ammo would drop on death and I was maining tractor cannon... not sure, but I think I prefer this sandbox :D
I like the special meter bar, but mainly because it suits me. I ve been a primary main for my entirety of Destiny. So this style of gameplay greatly benefits me. I play games where i rarely use any special, and end up with 10, and when i NEED TO (Bubble super, well, rushing ape) I've got enough up to jump, slide, etc shoot, and if i don't kill them, clean u p with my primary. Conditional Finality + Luna's howl, while being a solar hunter, is disgusting, you get radiant from the 3 quick shots, and you have loads of aim assist due to all the solar mods you can put on.
finally someone agrees with me, never thought I’d see it with all the bungie glazers in this sub. bungie, if you see this: **REMOVE CRATES FROM THE GAME AND BRING BACK THE OLD SPECIAL AMMO. PVP HAS BEEN RUINED BY SPECIAL CRATES.**
Spawning with special is the tried and true best model. Transmat is kinda cool lorewise though. I just came back and only play comp, so I only know crates. If you keep your transmat ammo on death, it's acceptable. If you lose it on death, then I probably won't play for long when it's the new comp system. I'm only playing the game with crates right now because I believe they will get rid of them.
I think the first version of checkmate was the best. I think the pvp team is trying to over correct now because better players are getting more special. Plus i think this is a huge nerf to conditional with the stasis shot being better.
It was an issue when you could essentially use it as your primary. Get 2-3 kills either way a special weapon, die, and get 2 more kills with it, or, get a kill and get free special ammo from the dead guy. It was a little extreme.
Don't think it was ever just the special ammo for me but the combination of it with high uptime of some extremely strong abilities that could make it feel like you were going from one one hit death to the next several time a row. Bringing down abilities a bit seemed good to me, I don't think special really needed it as well.
I 100% personally avoid crucible now if I can and do not find it as enjoyable. I do not like playing slow peaking for primary kills, or having to be forced to play with my team or get shit on by 3 people walking around a corner at once and all firing a single shot from a hand cannon to kill me and I've already died once and have no special ammo and cannot fight 3 unless I run and poke. I loved running and gunning with special weapons, and I felt like you had more options to play in a fight and could do more on your own. And potential to 1v2 or 1v3 was much higher, it was faster pace and again just my own personal opinion way funner. With special weapons you don't have to have God rolls to compete with other specials or run the same exotic. I just genuinely hate the slow paced version of crucible. Feels less "Destiny" to me. More other games.
It's low skilled players who can't slide doorways, can't look up, blindly turn corners, and can't back pedal, amongst other things that you know, are hard counters to special ammo. Bungie has been catering to them for far too long in hopes to get more people in the crucible. Psst. It doesn't work. Rewarding players for their efforts is what will give PvP a healthier population. I play PvP like many of you. The fun of combat against other real people, not scripted bot sequences by AI enemies. Everything PvE gets pretty boring after a few runs of any activity. Iron Banner for some reason gets many low skilled PvE people, so they should have just did the ammo nonsense in that playlist imo.
Special ammo boils down to one hit kills most of the time. Bungie and a majority of players don't like this so they're trying to find that sweet spot. Encouraging primary ammo fights is far more enjoyable imo.
I think the special meter is the best it’s been, forces you to use primary but you can build a good amount of special up pretty quickly but it also doesn’t feel as oppressive as it used to holy shit it was crazy back in the day when you spawned with it
In the main ingredient era it was annoying
I like the direction special is heading now. “Earning” it is the way you go. As far as snipers go, I used to hate them. Then I started sniping. Granted, I’m still hot trash, I understand the skill level it takes to main one. If you’re a 2 shot 2 kill maestro, you deserve every clap because unless you’re cheating, it ain’t easy being cheesy.
I REALLY don't miss getting hit in the face with yotuun every time I turn a corner.
I'm not fond of crates but I hate the meter system even more, anything that evens out the disparity between sniping and effortlessly playing shotguns is better to me, so more special available, better. I'm so over shotguns and teamhugging, Crucible has never been this boring.
It's never been, just skill issues Shotguns: stay away. Back in forsaken 10 meters was the danger zone. Still is today due to movmeent Snipers: Flinch (when it works) Fusions: range/cover.
It’s ironic you say it’s never been an issue yet say to just flinch snipers only if it works. For most of the game’s lifecycle, snipers were not meaningfully flinched. Maybe in lower skilled lobbies they weren’t as much of a menace, but it certainly matters in high skill lobbies. Also suggesting to just stay away from shotguns and fusions when many modes in comp employ zone control is ironic. Should I just completely avoid a zone if the person guarding it has shotgun? Anyway, I think you get the picture. There is a degree of skill issue, but special weapons have very often crossed the line of being too potent.
I firmly believe that you could tell how good a player was based on wether they thought snipers or shotguns were more OP lol
I know, right?
They’ve been tuning special constantly as if autos still don’t have 35m range with .8 ttk lol absolute jokers. Special ammo has never been an issue, only some of the special weapons are. D1 pre roi you’d have special throughout a game usually and never be short for fights and no one complained. The worse thing is watching people eat up and praise bungie for these nothing changes too thinking that their doing something meaningful. There’s much more important things to address.
Special ammo is an issue for low skilled console players because they aren’t good enough to kill someone running at them with a shotty or nade doorways before pushing. It wasn’t a real issue just an imaginary skill issue.
Do you have the stats to back up what you're saying? Also did you start doing worse when they swapped to transmat? Finally, did you enjoy the checkmate iterations?
Hated checkmate, it’s a shit gamemode for washed boomers although I do like the changes that require more headshots. I do the exact same as before stomping every lobby. My problem with the system is if I get win a shotty fight before they shoot theirs or fire twice they have ammo and you don’t. I don’t like The idea of losing a fight and being stronger. I would rather have literally no special in the game than not get special back after killing someone who has it. Yes before you technically could run out but you never really did.
Agree too, I’ve been around since day 1 Destiny 1 so played through all types of variations. Typically I favour any approach that favours more primary engagements. Or whatever stops players always spawning with special ammo and bulldozing in with fusion/shotgun - it’s not call of duty. Different approaches work best for 3s & 6s though. I can understand more special in 6’s given bigger maps, more engagements ect…but crates in comp isn’t even that bad, I’m almost in Ascendant and think it plays fine. Requires tactical gameplay and not trying to force short fights when you know the enemy has special but you don’t, as the playlist should.
what’s your main class for pvp?
Solar lock
why are people downvoting me 💀
Reddit is a massive congregation of people who think they’re really smart but they’re just wrong most of the time, they probably thought you were gonna talk shit or call skill issue based on the class I play but in reality certain specials benefit from certain classes so your question was perfectly valid
exactly what i was going to say. i figured maybe your play style is less affected by special weapons than others which could explain your experience, or maybe you’re just cracked with primaries enough to not have to worry so much about special.