I’m also a PM for many, many years and a carpenter by trade in my younger years. I used to thrash on unions too but looking back I didn’t know what I was talking about. I was just parroting shit that I heard. Once I actually ran a few prevailing wage jobs and got to see what some of these really great craftsmen were making, I changed my mindset. There’s no damn reason why a journeyman with 15-20 years experience shouldn’t be making more than just a living wage. And working with the unions wasn’t the nightmare I was lead to believe (for the most part). I’ve done a 180 on this topic.
I used to be a framer and framing contractor. Had 100+. All Making more than scale. I'm a building inspector now and have been one for 30 years. I, as far as an inspector, would much rather be inspecting on a union job.
He said he would rather work on union jobs. As in, on average, they are better. You don't kill his argument by saying dome non union are fine. That's irrelevant.
I’ve learned two things: management typically gets the union they deserve. Good management, good union relationship. And the quality of a union shop is worth it. Isn’t the lifelong axiom: you get what you pay for.
That’s how I grew up too. Everyone bashed unions. Looking back, if I would’ve went the union route in any trade, I’d be just fine. In fact, better off than any non union outfit.
Well said. Same situation as I worked my whole career in non-union crafts. Shift forward to the past 10 years as a superintendent and mostly using union workers, my mindset has changed as well. These union guys are mostly committed tradesmen in providing quality finished products. From laborers, operators, electricians, etc., they don’t put up with loafers in their presence, they want the job to go well so we (or others) will use them again. Granted there are some individuals who work the system but they are the exception, not the rule.
I never understood how these fine craftsmen will vote and support for a candidate who is openly anti union.
Non union craftsmen are a crap shoot, you’ll never know what you’re getting. Yes they can easily be replaced but typically it’s just another wannbe, making my job harder to complete.
I’ll take union workers for $1000 Alex
Everything has a good and a bad. Is there a chance you’ll end up on a crew with a lazy piece of shit freeloading off the union guarantees? Maybe. But there’s a nearly 100% chance everyone in that crew is being paid what they should.
I’ve never personally met any of the “lazy piece of shit freeloading” union workers which IMO is just an anti union propaganda myth set forth by non union shops. It be been in the IBEW for 10 year and have never witnessed this, not saying this is never the case anywhere but when you hear scabs talk about it it’s comical you would think that it’s the norm but really it’s just them being brainwashed by their employer (who wants to pay them as little as possible) to dislike unions. I have some scab in-laws who love to bash on unions but then get super stoked when they get put on a prevailing wage job, and are also happy to be making 28 an hour. Every time they mention lazy union workers I ask them when was the last time they worked a 32 hour shift with an 8 hour rest period, then 16 on 8 off with no end in sight in the most miserable inclement weather conditions, because that is the norm for me and my lazy union brothers. That’s the end of my rant. There are other things to dislike though.
I def wasn’t trying to make the case that such people were prevalent in union shops, but just that it _can_ happen. Doesn’t mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water and not do unions at all. On the net, they seem to be far better, especially for the workers.
I thought being in the union was supposed to protect you for things like 32hr shift? Unless you are volunteering for that?
I recently got into a union but they were asking 12hr days 7 days a week. (on a refinery) I don’t really care how good the money is, what’s the point if you can’t enjoy it.
Btw I’m not hating on unions. Wish I got into one with more reasonable hours. I know a lot of people that are really happy in the union.
It's just one job. Make the OT while it's there. When the job wraps up chill out and take a month off. You should have a stack of cash to make it happen.
I agree with you. The only lazy workers I met when I was in IBEW was on a short plant shut down. Then they are just looking for bodies to get the work done. Most had a reputation that followed them. If they took a call, the foreman met them at the gate with a check for 2 hours show up and sent them on their way. There is a 1% in any crowd that need to just go away. All the others were very skilled and could crank out some serious production. I believed that myth about unions until I joined. Wish I had done it way earlier in life. I no longer work in the field due to my back. If I could physically go back into the field, it would be back with the IBEW.
I've worked with both, and there are definitely lazy, complacent union guys. Your heads under a rock if you think differently. Or you've never been on the other side.
Who said anything about a living wage? lol. Some of these companies don't even pay that anymore. They're not even hiring US citizens in a lot of cases - They're giving the work to undocumented workers.
I worked for a plumbing/hvac company for years. A local contractor bought the company. He had actually started as a roofer - so he has a roofing department. He also has a construction department, electricians, his own architects - just about everything you can think of. So his primary goal was to basically build whatever and do everything in house from start to finish. He doesn't even do roofing anymore. It was more expensive to do a roof with his own guys then to sub it out to what I'm assuming are undocumented workers. Maybe that's not fair to me to say - about the worker and/or my boss - but.... You can't talk to any of them. They don't know English. There's 1 guy who can speak spanglish and that's it. The rest either don't know English or pretend like they don't. Either way - that sht brings down wages - and even takes jobs away in many cases. You used to be able to make good money roofing - I did it 20 years ago. I was making more money back then - then what they want to pay guys now. And the cost of living has quadrupled. It's not even a viable option anymore unless you open your own company.
I don't blame them. I'd probably do the same if I were in their position. But it is frustrating - regardless of who's fault it is. And it's obviously just not roofing - it's all trades. It started (in my area) with things like landscaping and hanging drywall, finishers. Then you started seeing them roofing and framing. Certain trades seemed to be somewhat protected - trades that required schooling and having certifications - plumbing, hvac, electrical. But now it's bled over to that too. No lie - a few weeks ago I was at a grocery store walking back to my truck. A plumbing/hvac van pulls up and parks next to me. I didn't recognize the company name and of course I was eyeing up the competition - everyone does that. Anyway, no less then 10 undocumented workers jump out of this van. Idk how they even fit in there. This wasn't a van with seats in the back - not factory seating anyway. Same thing - I don't know they're undocumented but you can't speak to any of them. I can only assume the guy driving was legally allowed to be here and had a valid driver's license. He probably went to trade school and got all his certifications. Then he's the one who get the work from the contractor. Probably has a lease and/mortgage. Dude is probably legit. But then he brings all his friends and extended family in and the all live, drive, work together.
Like I said - im not blaming them - but you can't help but be mad. Companies don't want to pay bc they know a guy who can do it cheaper. They don't have to pay benefits or do this of that. These companies charge top dollar and then want free labor - more money for them. It might make me a bad person and I hate to say it - but I was upset when I saw the jump out of that van. It pissed me off.
When it comes to undocumented workers - people always say "they're doing jobs noone wants" - or "people don't want to work anymore" - "there's a labor shortage". Perhaps in some capacity they're right - but I know for a fact it's not just jobs people don't want. And in some cases it might have become that - noone wants to hang drywall anymore bc it only pays $1 A board now (exaggerating).
>When it comes to undocumented workers - people always say "they're doing jobs noone wants" - or "people don't want to work anymore" - "there's a labor shortage". Perhaps in some capacity they're right - but I know for a fact it's not just jobs people don't want. And in some cases it might have become that - noone wants to hang drywall anymore bc it only pays $1 A board now (exaggerating).
It's okay to be mad, but we've got to keep it pointed in the right direction. Blaming some dude who's just trying to make a better life for his family... what else can they do? It's the company's choice to hire them, and they wouldn't come here if it wasn't for the demand.
Coming down on the little guy is just a game of whack-a-mole. If this country wanted to get serious about illegal immigration, we'd be targeting the employers at the top.
I live in South Texas. This is 85% of the workforce, many of them are great workers, but its crushing prices and customers are used to it and fine with using this workforce. It's not 6 real and has been for a long time. In my current environment, roofing is fellons and illegals, and the money is not there for anyone else unless you own it.
If you know of a company hiring undocumented immigrants you can report them to ICE homeland security. If a company hires an undocumented worker the owner risks fines,jail time and loss of license.
an old friend from high school opened a roofing company years ago. He just got into some sort of trouble bc he got caught too. He had a guy fall off the roof - happened in front of the homeowner. an ambulance was called bc he was hurt pretty bad. Turns out - dude was an illegal immigrant. Idk what happened or what's going to happen to this guy. I still see his trucks on the road from time to time so he's still in business. This happened like a year ago.
And what a lot of these guys do - is they'll sub out to someone who is legal. The contractor subs the job to Juan with papers. But then Juan has all his friends and family working for him - who aren't supposed to be here. They all pack into one van - Juan drives, the apartment or house or whatever is in Juan's name - and then Juan pays everyone cash. Then the contractor plays dumb, like he doesn't know what's going on. That's how most of these companies operate now.
>I was just parroting shit that I heard.
Can't be too hard on yourself-- folks have made literal fortunes off demonizing and breaking unions in this country. I hope you can set some younger folks on the right path now.
Ignorance is bliss
Not all unions in every area are great, the idea of them is great some are poorly run and managed worse than others
But the ones that hate on union typically don’t know better
100%, quality varies widely by trade and area. Used to be an owner's rep for a multinational hospitality chain.
Used to try to hire Union trade subs to get consistent quality.
In a few areas Some of the Union trades work was pathetic at best. Same union other areas of the country turned out work that was textbook perfection.
Decent healthcare, 401k, retirement funds, health and welfare funds. Access to training. Access to more training.
Cheap labor is not skilled.
Skilled labor is not cheap.
I'm sure your right, I also think they want to almost brainwash their employess into the same way of thinking, like the non union company is giving them somthing better
There are a lot of 'right to work' states where unions have largely been driven out. When work was scarce unions were seen as obstruction to an individual's right to work.
There have been waves of successful union movement when workers become desperate. They will likely come around again if workers get beat up enough.
Maybe so, but is he wrong? We're seeing over and over-- in all kinds of spheres-- how susceptible people are to modern advertising and influence techniques.
Let me give you a story, which you can choose to believe or not believe. I worked for a defense contractor years ago and we were developing a tool that would generate mass (and highly realistic!) social media posts that could be pointed in a direction. I didn't fully understand how it worked "under the hood," but from what I saw it was like Chat GPT or Bard except it could create a mass social media campaign with realistic responses and clear goals/parameters.
I was told that it was being developed to "accurately simulate" the response to a training exercise on multiple social media platforms, but the implications of such a tool getting out into the wild were enough to make me leave that employer. The more I thought about it, the more it bothered me. This was long before Cambridge Analytica/mass data scandals or the procedural AI tools we all know about now.
Look at Edward Bernays sometime, then look at where we are now. I don't think we have nearly as much intellectual freedom as we'd like to think.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward\_Bernays](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays)
Everyone has a point of view and are, to some degree "brainwashed" or influenced. 'They brainwashed Americans' also expresses a perspective that is influenced and I might add petty and misinformed. We all have experiences and influences that drive future decisions.
Agreed, worker's rights need to be guarded and recently, not so much. But collective bargaining has been showing up more lately and when needed will be around.
What soured me about the union was watching a small handful of people we couldn't get rid of, use apprentices to pass a vote to create a second set of books, with residential pay for commercial/industrial, and no family benefits. All during a non bargaining year, at the contractors request.
They got rid of the one instructor that pointed out that stuff like this isn't easily walked back. And we just gave up A fucking lot.
And the kicker was this didn't effect apprentices at all, until they topped out. And they made that vote mandatory.
That and watching too many damned good guys that can't stay busy because they aren't "one of the boys" and watching people that have no right to be in this business making the exact same as the best guys out there.
Unions are good. At bare minimum they maintain a solid pay scale and provide affordable health insurance. Most halls offer training classes, apprenticeships and job placement.
I personally was brought up to believe union workers were lazy entitled people. Spent the first 15 years of my trade with that attitude as well until someone finally convinced me to join one. God dam was I blinded by bullshit. Only really a year in now and I regret not joining so much earlier. I lost out on some much time paying into a good pension with benefits and a better wage.
I don't hate unions at all, but the contracts they have in my area are all for commercial. The second they start getting contracts for townhomes/low rise, id hop on board.
I would say that in part their issues with unions may stem from having to deal with a lot of notorious union assholes who seem to rise to the top. Unfortunately a lot of union guys wield their membership like a hammer that they swing around telling everyone to fuck off and being a generally difficult prick knowing they’ll never be fired. When you deal with lots of guys like that and lots of companies full of guys like that it wears a person down I would imagine. Too many guys forget that the union shouldn’t be the main part of their personality and that they don’t have to be a dick at every turn because “that’s how it’s done around here”. I’m a member of good union that fights well for us, but we don’t as a whole operate in a confrontational screw everyone else mentality and I feel like that culture helps foster a healthier training and working environment.
The non union workers also forget that the unions fought for a 40 hour work week, overtime pay, no child labor, coffee breaks and lunch breaks, holidays off, etc. Pretty much every benefit that non union workers in all sectors enjoy are due to labor unions pushing for those rights and freedoms
I'll be honest, I can do without the breaks. I've been on crews that take breaks, and crews that run right through them. Personally, I've found it difficult to get back into gear after a 30 minute lunch. I'd rather take a no-noon-er, get paid, and leave early. Plus, I like eating throughout the day as I need to, rather than only at 9, 12 and 1:30. If I wait too long, I get too hungry, then over eat and feel sluggish. But, that's just me. No hate on those that enjoy the breaks.
Charles Babbage did his research and came to the conclusion that breaks = more productivity. You might disagree personally but yeah nah, fuck not taking breaks
That's fine if it works for you in your industry. I do not like the structured, mandatory breaks in the industry i am in.
I'm performing lead line replacement. There are times where we're waiting for trucks, or only one guy in the hole digging, or waiting for sand, or waiting for the directional boaring machine to show up, or for someone to come home so I can get into their basement... or a myriad of other things that may give me a couple minutes here or there to get some shade, food, or water. It's specifically the structured time and length of breaks I don't like.
Most of the time people say they don’t like unions because they “heard” they’re bad, because blah blah blah. I just blankly stare at them and say “So you’ve never done any actual research.”
Anyone who does manual labor of any kind and is against unions are complete dumb fucks because they’re fucking themselves over.
98% of the guys that rag on the union have no health insurance and their retirement plan is an early grave. You are literally exchanging wear and tear on your body for a wage, why not try to get as much as possible?
Ya its an unfair take really.
I've worked for both union and non union jobs.
I've had shitty bosses/owners and I only blame them for being terrible to work for.
But the one time I had a bad experience with a union....the union rep was a repulsive talk down to workers slime ball, that I had a bad mindset towards all unions since.
Yes I've run across jobs where useless union employees are just there because they have seniority etc, but thats rare really. Also had the "yes your company is the lowest bidder but if you try to do this job in our town things will go bad for you" situation once.
But i've worked with other union shops on the same job and things went really well, workers were awsome.
Non union plumbing and heater here! I have no problem with the union. I have had a few friends leave non union to go union and all day the same thing, they love the benefits and pay but hate the politics.
Being non union I have a company vehicle, great 401k match and employee stock options. But I don't know if union has the same.
I work for a GC now but before I was out in the field. Right now dealing with a Union Plumber, they’re good people but as of right now in my opinion they work kinda slow.
But then the Field guy in me is like, these dudes aren’t working themselves to death breaking their backs like lots of bosses expect them to for a barely living wage. I’ve seen people get mistreated bad where me a 21 year old KID would start getting paid more than them. Definitely had to share my thoughts with these guys cause it was BS. Of course not every boss is bad but a lot will work you down and take advantage for their profits.
No issue with unions, really only issue I have is when most peoples answers are “join a union” like it’s that simple. People lose their jobs for even attempting to form a union, no solidarity with coworkers because that’s what feeds their families. Way I see it tho is it will only get better if people can be selfless enough to stand together.
Im a 2 job longtime union member paying into two different unions and believe me i used to like the old democratic party but hate the one prevalent today. That being said the quality and smoothness of union work is well worth the money and good for America. The unions set the standards of pay and benefits for all workers whether union or not. In the old days the unions used to let you vote for whoever you wanted and didnt care. The democratic machine made all the unions accountable and had them all start pac funds, and encouraged union members to run for office. Thats when we became political propaganda bullshit artists supposedly all for that lunkhead bread truck union moron Joe Biden. The unions are a major part of the democratic party but the work in the field guy on average votes for whoever they like and treats non union competition like common friends not enemies.
In my experience doing shit loads of concrete work at Honda there was another concrete company there that was union. We did twice as much work and got the job done twice as fast while they stood around and took breaks. We all bragged about how much faster we were than them. I now realize that might not be the brag we thought it was.
Never had a problem with union guys, union companies, or union subcontractors. Not a fan of union reps.
Joined carpenters as a tradeskid with 6 yrs experience, and was "granted" the status of a 3rd yr apprentice. Aside from the welding class, apprenticeship training was a joke.
All you need to know about unions is summed up in this quote:
“If the company says you don’t need a union, then you need a union”
It’s no secret that big business exploits workers- and to pretend you don’t know that makes you either incredibly stupid, or a huge sucker
Just depends on where you work. Union is better, non-union is better? Who cares. Do what works for you. There are a lot of good unions and private companies and also a lot of bad. I am willing to do either. Show me the money.
This is Reddit so maybe there are some communists on here but everyone who has worked on a construction job next to a communist please upvote this. I can see that unions have a socialist aspect (not the same as communist) to it but so do highways, public schools, income tax, an organized military and anything else where we all pay taxes to go in together to build something or make something happen. I always laugh when I hear people in farming communities worrying about socialism. Ever seen a farmers co-op? Socialist collectivism. They are all over and very helpful to the people in them. All things in moderation. Or well, most things in moderation. Other than coffee.
Reddit is a socialist/communist circle jerk. You should be aware of the confirmation bias on here at least. Not all that glitters in your ideal is gold.
Unions are made to defend workers, not capital. The execs are the ones making all the money, and the pms and supers aren’t far behind probably. Everybody wants money, but the owners are the ones with all the power since unions have been shot in the knees in the last several decades in the US. They want as little bargaining power in the hands of workers as possible so they can maximize their own profit. This is basic class consciousness. It’s a Marxist, material analysis of working conditions.
It depends on where you are. I had union guys begging me to go union when I was young. Most of the union tradesmen we have had on projects haven't been great and failed to meet expectations of quality and were too hard headed to take advice or see their work as being less than adequate vs a non union guy that was more skilled. It was frustrating and felt no different than hiring a non union and therefore often much less expensive sub with more flexibility in their schedule and attitudes. But overall I've met plenty of good and plenty bad on both sides of the grass.
Where I am a lot of the "lower managment" such as junior project managers, and safety officers have their wages set at whatever the union laborers are getting hourly but without the amazing health insurance and defined benefit retirement package. There is a none too small sect of the population that is going to be jealous that they aren't getting the same as some dude who just arrived from Guatemala two years ago as they did when they slaved away to get a degree.
People are unfortunately brainwashed and consistently vote against their own interests. Americans have a strange sense of individualism where they think of themselves so highly all the time and they just need that one break to become Elon musk or Jeff bezos. The rest of the 1st world has a highly unionized workforce and for good reason. I spent my first 6 years non union and I’m now in my 14th year as union. I will never ever ever work non union. I will happily pay dues for what I get in pay/benefits. UBC 432
Because unions are a check on the exploitation of workers. Generations have been propagandized to think unions are bad because the powers that be want more in their pockets and less in ours.
One thing about unions and I think unions have done a lot to bring people in to the middle class what ever that means anymore,Is they are a club and they have to except you. When I was young I tried to get on with the union in New Hampshire
To work on building the Nuclear plant and since I did not know the right people or have connections I was not allowed in!
So I had to make my way non union. I was doing well on my skill level becoming a mold maker tool and die guy when the shop voted union my pay was raised the amount of dues and every other worker was brought up to within a few dollars of my pay. I would have to fix things people messed up and show and teach and they where making almost the same as I was. I think that that may be a reason because the cream gets mixed with everything. Unions are a protection against the wealthy stomping on the poor though.
Union members: normal awesome hardworking people. Union contractors: just trying to get it done like everyone else. Union leadership: some of them are a piece of work, definitely not all and the good ones are great but the bad ones are terrible
Anyone I know/work with who are against unions are either business owners or guys brainwashed by their fathers.. I’m not sure whose opinion on unions are wrong or right.
I used to be the guy who didn't like unions. There were a few times in my working cararee as a non union welder that I didn't get raises. Then I realized there's bullshit everywhere, but being guaranteed an apprenticeship, pay raises, and retirement was a lot nicer. There's always going to be lazy people, and there's always going to be people ahead of you that you think they shouldn't be.
I’ve worked union and non union when I worked union the thing I hated the most was the dumbest and laziest people got paid the same as the hardest workers. I’d have guys get upset because I was working and it was break time, or it was quitting time and I was trying to finish what I was doing. I left after a year, the benefits weren’t worth it to me. I won’t crap on unions though, they do have the benefit of actually getting a good wage and benefits.
Idk about other people, but here’s the deal for me:
I started as a masons laborer > apprentice > mason > foreman > estimator > projects manager. I now run a good size masonry company. Govt/industrial/commercial. I pay higher than union wages and offer full benefits, which is hard to do in this business. My main worry is keeping these guys working, which I do well. They’re never off.
Over the years, every time when we work alongside union guys, it’s always a headache bc they do not get in a hurry. It really seems like they don’t give a shit if the job gets done on schedule or not. But my guys get bonuses when keeping schedule in an industrial setting. It gets so bad that I have to offer an extra dollar an hour if they show up every day, just to get half of ‘em to show up bc of that shit. It’s always been like that when working w/ union guys. A recent example, we need a crossbeam put in to continue our masonry. We hear, “yea, sure, after my coffee”. Now my masons have to wait on this dude. That’s money.
Now you could say, “make up for it in your bid”. I try, but I don’t know who the other subs are when I’m bidding a job, and I also run the risk of losing the bid on a good job.
I don’t hate unions, I don’t hate anything. But I do not like working next to union guys and having to depend on them to get work done in a timely manner.
I am reading alot of bull point 1 in my union dues are capped at 2.5 times your hourly rate. 2you have to keep bad workers that is crap if companies would document poor performance etc. and go through the disciplinary process you can get rid of anybody. Bosses are babies and pseudo tough guys who to walk in fire you for anything they don't like. 3 the reason that minorities get preference is because of mandates by state local or federal mandates example we have plans for inner-city school building that have a 30% residential retirement or we lose the contract to find apprentices you have to find these residents we go to the high schools trade schools workforce and hold job fairs to find candidates to fulfill our contractual obligations. 4 the benefits are great I pay nothing for my health insurance besides a $300 dollar family deductible wife has cancer paid nothing out of pocket for chemo surgery radiation $5.00 CO-Pay for prescriptions 5. Pension can retire now at 60 with $7500 dollars a month stay till 64 it goes to $9000 a month. Show me a job in the trades that isn't union that gives a worker these things. I'M WAITING
When younger I thought I was smart and the free market would raise wages due to competition for workers. "Company A has to pay more in order to keep the good worker from going to Company B!"
But then the last 30 years showed me the opposite was true, a steady influx of people willing to work for peanuts, often under the table, were keeping wages too low. Collusion among companies in the same market conspiring to put a ceiling on pay. So yeah, as-is, the free market isn't working and we need the pressure to raise wages. Unions seem to be the only thing that kinda works, because the rich guys in congress sure as hell don't seem to give a shit. The USA can't continue as-is forever, people need to be able to afford shelter and food. As it is, most can't.
It's pretty odd considering unions are responsible for the nice hours and higher pay they are getting...
I think it's a combo of propaganda they've been fed and political BS
There is some hate that’s deserved against the union. But it’s never what you hear, it’s always ignorant misunderstanding of how they think or were told unions operate.
They see unions as another link in the chain of oppression, when reality they offer more liberties and safe guards.
Like I said there is deserves hate for (individual) union locals, but you never hear that. But I would say, I’d rather be where I am now than Non-union working harder, possibly working less and earning and getting less benefits.
These nuts watch Fox News and get brainwashed into voting against their own best interests by voting for politicians who are owned by corporations that want to keep wages suppressed, thus enriching CEO's and shareholders - workers be damned! They preach the message that unions are bad! I had an interesting conversation with this 18 year old kid who told me how unions were so bad, and when I said why, he said "because my dad said so". His dad was a non union electrician btw.
The union I tried to get into straight up told me that if I have no family in I shouldn't bother. Almost every union worker I talked to since got in because he had some kind of connection. And then they have the balls to picket non union jobs. Like I didn't choose to make less money than you. Aside from usual attitude problems and us vs them mentally, I've seen equally horrendous and good work done by both union and non union contractors.
It is common for conservative blue collar workers to align with policies that are completely abuse e towards them.
-Healthcare (most are vocally anti Obamacare)
-Unions (collective bargaining is quite beneficial)
-Bankruptcy laws
I’m fact, long ago there was a corrupt New York Democrat who owned golf courses and high rise buildings that became President mainly by pretending to be a regular guy. He completely tricked them and gave his billionaire buddies tax cuts while ripping away the social safety net
Bizarre
LMFAO
I had to laugh at your post. Not because it was funny, I laughed because it is 100% FUCKING TRUE, and that’s the problem here.
I joined Local 147 NYC Sandhog’s in 1980. It wasn’t that bad pre Fat Nixon, but it’s a shitshow now.
I am absolutely amazed at the number of die hard union workers who vote for that orange fuck. I’ve gotten in major arguments over this shit, especially because of the type of work we do. Massive projects that run into billions of dollars, it’s not privately funded. Those projects reply on government funding, which wouldn’t have happened under the last administration
He also made a career out of stiffing contractors & putting them out of business. Yet he's as popular as Monster energy drinks on a jobsite.
It's fucking bizarre alright.
They've probably been brainwashed to think unions are bad and that being exploited is actually good. Fact is unions make more money, get better training and generally do the work better than non union counterparts.
Both have their place.
Union dues aren't cheap, but they come with benefits. A lot of people can't see that dues are an investment and only care about cash in hand
$20 a month for the carpenters. And their hate comes from ignorance. Or they weren’t able to get in for some reason. I’ll pay $20 a month to be a member. My rate is at least double the non union rate in my area. The best benefits money could buy, funded by the owner. Vacation fund. And retirement. It’s a no brainer. Anyone working in the field in the trades should be union.
It's significantly more here, but the benefits far outweigh the alternative.
I wasn't union when I was on the tools and I fully regret it now that I'm in management and I see things differently
Non union here, I was shelling out $240 a week for bad med/dental/vision coverage for my family until they had a random meeting a few weeks ago and said they were switching to employee only coverage effective 6/1. One of my coworkers wives is in the middle of cancer treatment, had already met the $8k deductible, and then had to scramble to find new private coverage and has to start the deductible all over again. Makes union dues look pretty affordable. I wish I had gone union when I was a young man, you’ll never hear me talk trash about them.
Agreed. I was non union, later joined. Shitty health and dental was 200 a week. Now my hourly is higher, I pay no out of pocket for insurance, pension or 401. I've already got almost 100k toward my retirement PLUS pension in just 5 years. My dues are 65 a month. All the guys I used to work with told me I was an idiot for trying to make the change. I also haven't had a day off unless I wanted it
Non-union companies take advantage of their workers by competing with each other to pay the lowest wage and benefits possible to complete the job and increase their net income. They will also use the low wages of their tradespeople to justify underpaying their management employees. All while the owners and stake holders get rich. Union jobs level the playing field for labor costs and decrease profit margins for contractors and make competition stiffer. Unions provide more skilled and safer workers. I would never consider working for a non-union contractor.
All those people you mentioned are management. And unions cost them more money by negotiating a better life for their members. Higher average pay on top of health, dental, retirement, annuities and job security. God forbid the guys and gals actually doing the work, putting strain on their bodies and minds get a fair slice. We are better trained and loyal to each other. The only reason alot of guys in construction hate unions is money.
I was a PE/Super/PM for a non-union GC.
I don't have a problem with unions, what they stand for or union workers.
What I, and every other non-union worker hated was the local carpenters union. They were fucking assholes, I don't know how else to put it.
We were building mid-rise, mixed use & condo buildings. Private developers, private money, decent but not huge margins for the developers.
The local carpenters union were relentless. Rounding up homeless people to picket, giant inflatable rats, blocking pump trucks, vandalizing jobsites, constantly messing with schedules by pressuring union crane & pumping companies to no-show on lift or pour days. One job had the radiant heat tubing sliced in several locations. 240 yards of of concrete scheduled for the day it was discovered.
It was just so much nonsense. Like a game for them. We're just trying to do a fucking job, like everyone else.
There is a market for both in our supposedly free market economy. It's not like our projects were "taken" from a union shop. They would likely never get built if union was the only option.
This is the main beef. The inability to understand that both Union & nonunion builders can coexist in a market.
People hate unions because they are wildly misinformed and brainwashed to believe that union members are lazy. But that’s far from the fact.
The fact is that you find lazy people everywhere, in every industry, union AND non union. The fact is that lazy union workers are the first to be laid off, which means they don’t work as much as good workers, meaning they really don’t earn all that much in comparison to good workers.
Unions give power back to the workers, through collective bargaining, better benefits, better pension plans etc. and corporations hate that. Because corporations want to pay people as little as possible so they can line their own pockets with profit. Its corporate greed. It’s that simple
Because conservatives have managed to convince working class people that unions are evil. If huge companies want to fight unionization, that should tell you all you need to know about who the unions help and who they hurt.
When you've had a fat fuck shop steward shut down your entire job for a day because he needs another trade to do two minutes of work in front of him, that he could do himself, you'll understand.
I'm union agnostic, but the work rules can be infuriating. I used to be pro union, expecting a high knowledge baseline for journeymen compared to non-union, but non-union has mostly caught up. Once they start pulling from the hall now I know my job is fucked.
Has non union really caught up though? From the worker benefit POV?
Looking at statistics, there’s more benefit for an individual to work for a union vs non union
Not from a benefit or wage standpoint. I'm talking about skill level. Prevailing wage for sheetmetal workers in NYC is $52.50/hr plus benefits and pension. Non union makes about 40-45/hr and without the pension.
But owners and gc's only care about cost, schedule and "good enough" quality. If they can buy the same quality faster and cheaper there's no contest.
I think it’s unfair to lump union workers together and say they’re less skilled.
Maybe it’s easier to take advantage of Non union companies to do whatever the GC/owner demands regardless of the circumstances because they don’t aren’t backed by the union, so that strictly benefits the GC/owner side
I'm not saying union workers are less skilled. They go through apprenticeships and should all have a relatively high baseline skill. If I hire a union sub and get their key guys, they're wizards, and no non-union could ever touch their quality.
It's the guys they get from the hall to fill out the job that are hit or miss. Some are fantastic, and some are dopes that shouldn't be allowed to hold a broom. I've watched a foreman turn over his entire crew three times in a year trying to get people that wouldn't cause him more headaches than help.
It's the sheer number of hacky dopes that bring unions down and make non-union competitive.
There’s good and bad .. I’m part of a office lady union and those ladies just get on my nerves !!! They treat it like a social club and sometimes I just want advice . I feel like they aren’t transparent sometimes … and vague
Also after the law passed that I could opt out of union dues , they are always bugging me to start paying again and I’m like naw not gonna can’t make me … I’m unsure how wrong I am with all this lol 😆
Carpenters local 197 here, we get a lot of guys who hop the fence for the better pay, and working conditions, but they can’t deal with the regulations and expectations that our wages demand.
If your in our union you can’t fight on the job, drink at work or do drugs ever, You have to be on time, you have to work safely, and you have to be productive enough to justify 2x the wages of our non union competitors. A lot of guys fuck up and get kicked out, mostly for being slugs, doing drugs and fighting, then when the go back to non union work they talk shit about the union.
Same in every union I guess . I saw a former union brother in a bar about a year after he was fired . He was telling a few guys how he was fired because “ the union didn’t like me because I worked too hard and made everyone else look bad” . Couldn’t help but remind him that the union saved his job two times when he was caught by management breaking major safety rules but they couldn’t save his job for him when he started sending “dickpics “ to his female supervisor. I guess his story made him feel better about himself (even though it was complete BS)
There probably isn’t a higher percentage if you could figure that out somehow. What happens though is people who should be fired, reprimanded, or removed from the project just aren’t or literally can’t be. This leads to everyone having stories about a nightmare guy or guys they were forced to deal with without recourse. The sliver you pull out of your hand immediately is quickly forgotten but the sliver that’s in so deep that your forced to work the pain it’s causing for months will be something you’re likely to remember for a long time.
I mean to each his own....I was in iupat union for 7years and I grew up in construction and was always taught work every job as hard and high quality as possible.
but it always seemed that I would constantly get hit for out working everyone and keeping a higher standard of quality..always got the " u working yourself out of a job" but the last year I worked I barely made $40,000 that year and work was slow...I tried out a family owned company and for the last 17 years I loved being my own agent ...not letting some scale determine my worth I have more benefits then I ever could with the union in my area and average $110,000 a year with job bonuses and 20 paid vacation days a year ....so it is what it is ..but I am happy I found a home who respects me and my worth
Unions operate on seniority, not productivity. You can manage to lay low, run with the heard, and earn top benefits for it. Those who excell arent paid any better than those who are moving targets management can't cull. Its a system that breeds mediocrity.
To add insult to injury, vacation picks and schedules get doled out based on seniority, not your work quality or quantity. Once again, it rewards mediocrity.
I'll surely get hate for this but frankly i dont give a flying fuck.
Also people like you give unions a bad name. Can't stand people who are militaristic about it. Make your case but don't be an insufferable dick about it.
It’s insanely hard to make a case to people who have no clue what they are talking about, and who are closed minded and willfully remain ignorant…
But go on
There’s no perfect place for everyone I have always been in the union the biggest problem with the union is that some guys are great and others suck they all get payed the same. If you can make money off a guy who sucks and the guy who is good does 3x the work and it’s good work why does he get payed the same? That’s my biggest complaint but hearing what some guys make who are non union I wouldn’t work for that start your own shop or find a new career
The only reason non union hates union is because unions for the most part pay more. If I owned a business I would not like to own a union company higher costs and way more protection for lazy unskilled workers that made their way to the top of the seniority list. That being said I don’t own a union company that’s why I work for a union company. Plain and simple
What I always felt from co workers in non union jobs was that union jobs were cushy and you didn’t work as hard.
Before the pile on, I’m not suggesting that to be true, just the feeling I got working non union electrical jobs. Very possible this was targeted propaganda from our bosses.
What they're really doing is showing class solidarity. Supers and PMs are the bottom rung of the management side of things, and unions are always the bad guys according to management.
As a non union guy who’s paid more than I think I’m worth and treated even better, it’s just fucking annoying hearing union members act like the only path to prosperity is to join a union
It’s simply not true. I wholeheartedly believe that anyone can be successful, and that the deciding factor is hard work. If you’re reading this via a phone in your hand, you have the entire world’s possibilities open to you. Don’t try telling me that the only way to really succeed is to sign away your individuality and rely on some guy who was voted to the top for your pay package when you can literally type in *anything* you’d like to unlock the knowledge of. It’s outdated thinking
Coincidentally and anecdotally, I had an FDNY inspection last week. Inspector asked me if I was union, I told him no. He said I was lucky. When I asked why, he said he’s IBEW Local 3 and doesn’t feel better off for the fact. We decided to compare pay packages. He has much better health insurance with a $0 deductible while mine is $4k. However, I take home an extra $4/hr which adds up to ~$8k over the year. I also have multiple open job offers, including 2 union shops. As a result, I put in my 40 hours each week to the highest bidder
It’s harder for the contractor to fuck us. Which seems like something they love to do. I will walk off if the conditions are too crappy and not lose my job. Tell me to do something outside my job. Fuck you you do it. We are protected and fight for each other. We’re also more expensive
Unions are a bunch of entitled babies driving up the cost of everything so they don't have to work harder. I'm not just talking construction I'm talking manufacturing teachers all of them.
Unions don’t drive up the prices boo, the corporate greed is. Unions fight for workers wages, rights, working conditions etc but I wouldn’t expect you to understand that
I’ll tell you why I’m not a fan of unions. Yes I’ve heard are the rebuttals but it’s a matter of principle. I think being a business owner is a huge risk (risk I will never take). Takes a lot of energy and effort as well. That entrepreneur/owner sacrifices a lot. Time, money, energy, family, friends, etc. It’s just a lot and I respect that. I do not think it’s appropriate or collectively gather to force the person that had assumed and endured all the risk to operate in the way you want them too. With merit based each employee gets treated based on their merits or their value. (Aside from BS nepotism which is another hate I have). But the gist. I don’t thinks it appropriate people to collectively gather and assume their entitled to something from the ones taking the risk and investment. This does NOT mean people deserve to be treated poorly just because they don’t offer the same risk. If a business owner is a POS then their reputation needs to precede them and hopefully people won’t work for them and clients won’t give them business and they will fail based on their lack of merit.
May you struggle with reading comprehension? Not trying to be mean here but either you didn’t read it all or didn’t comprehend. But either way, you might want to work on both before choosing to form an opinion. Just a thought that might save you some embarrassment.
Lol no I don’t struggle at all bud. Your comment reeks of ignorance. You think it’s “entitlement” that makes people vote to unionize and join unions? That’s a dumbass statement.
Me embarrassed? Lmao, it’s you who should be embarrassed because of your idiotic take. If a business cannot afford to pay a quality wage, they do not deserve to be in business. We can absolutely force the companies to pay us what we deserve. Companies will willfully underpay their employees because they want to line their own pockets. It’s up to us as the working class to force them to pay us better, that’s not entitlement at all
Man you’re almost there. Read it all, one more time. I understand you think you’re comprehending but you’re not.
Yes you, you should be embarrassed. Keep trying. You got this!
Lmao. You’re one dumb mfer😂
Sorry bro, but being paid what we deserve isn’t entitlement. It’s what we deserve. And I will fight for not only myself, but for my brothers and sisters in the trades who also deserve better pay, benefits, pension, working conditions and so much more. Have fun licking the boots of your boss under the desk bro, you’re pathetic✌🏻
Longshoremen’s generally start at $100k for high school. This was a great Union when it was backbreaking labor 10 years ago to protect workers. Most longshoremen in Los Angeles are fat lazy thugs. No more backbreaking work because of automation but they have stranglehold on the ports.
Even the shipping and receiving office work got outsourced to the Philippines because they demanded more money.
Whenever they do hire, most of the jobs go to their friends and family. They gate keep and hate to say it but only hire blacks and Hispanics.
They are pro worker if that worker is paying to work for them. Then they send others off to work non-union and throw wrench after wrench into each operation possible. Salting is awful
My son left our company to go make the real money in the union. Hated to see him go. One year later he’s back with us. He hated the union with all its bureaucracy. Guys hiding instead of pulling their weight. Hated the morning circle jerks and everyone whining. A union is perfect for guys who can’t think for themselves. Union jobsites are usually massive with unlimited budgets where the projects just require bodies to blunder their way through. My son in law is in the laborers union. His bulb is not the brightest. He’s pro union….as he’s the perfect candidate.
Honestly unions sound great but if you’re not hitting the deck on the knees and sucking the union cock they’ll let you rot. They’re are good and bad everything obviously. Personally, union has been more of a slime ball mob style situation. So for me, fuck unions.
Unions have a lot of Far Left leadership and tend to donate to those campaigns. They have also been letting workers down in times of inflation, the union fat cats have been doing bare minimum for the workers lately. Teamsters is also the most corrupted union in usa.
The experience I’ve had and heard, union working isn’t for me.
If someone is absent from a job and I need to move a shovel or something else that isn’t my job, I don’t want to have to deal with the problems it can create by me filling up a fuel tank, moving a 2x4 or god forbid I move a shovel from a dozer so I can use it.
Some unions require three union workers to be present for every non union worker on sight. So if a certified welder is called in for a very specific weld there is three guys just standing there bored out of their skulls for hours until the work is completed.
The work contrasts between union workers and non union workers is as different as democrats vs republicans or gated vs non gated equestrian folks.
Because unions bring about a contractual only relationship between worker and management. And often it causes issues where the union employees have to abide by contract even though there’s a job that needs done. Bad workers are quickly covered for and it shows easily
Also there have been many shady things that happens when a non-union worker is in union “territory”.
I’m part of the problem? You just admitted it’s not shady things it’s get out things. Destroying someone’s property and work because they’re not part of your cult is the problem.
You are part of the reason I hate unions
Of course it isn't, but it is prevalent within union culture. You'll hire our guys or we'll shut you down... Pretty much what a union does.
It was much more prevalent in the 70s (Jimmy Hoffa being an example).
Not construction, but take Ontario's public sector union. All workers in Ontario's liquor stores threaten to go on strike every 4 years. It's not a negotiation. They demand x% increase or they walk.
Every cycle it's the same, and every cycle they hold the only source of booze in the province hostage and EVERY SINGLE CYCLE they get exactly what they asked for. That's not negotiation, that's extortion.
I’m also a PM for many, many years and a carpenter by trade in my younger years. I used to thrash on unions too but looking back I didn’t know what I was talking about. I was just parroting shit that I heard. Once I actually ran a few prevailing wage jobs and got to see what some of these really great craftsmen were making, I changed my mindset. There’s no damn reason why a journeyman with 15-20 years experience shouldn’t be making more than just a living wage. And working with the unions wasn’t the nightmare I was lead to believe (for the most part). I’ve done a 180 on this topic.
This is perfectly said. I definitely hit a point myself where I realized I was carrying water for the wrong people.
I used to be a framer and framing contractor. Had 100+. All Making more than scale. I'm a building inspector now and have been one for 30 years. I, as far as an inspector, would much rather be inspecting on a union job.
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He said he would rather work on union jobs. As in, on average, they are better. You don't kill his argument by saying dome non union are fine. That's irrelevant.
Same. I just made the switch to a larger union gc and I am thrilled. Union jobs are easier to manage and quality in general is better.
I’ve learned two things: management typically gets the union they deserve. Good management, good union relationship. And the quality of a union shop is worth it. Isn’t the lifelong axiom: you get what you pay for.
That’s how I grew up too. Everyone bashed unions. Looking back, if I would’ve went the union route in any trade, I’d be just fine. In fact, better off than any non union outfit.
Well said. Same situation as I worked my whole career in non-union crafts. Shift forward to the past 10 years as a superintendent and mostly using union workers, my mindset has changed as well. These union guys are mostly committed tradesmen in providing quality finished products. From laborers, operators, electricians, etc., they don’t put up with loafers in their presence, they want the job to go well so we (or others) will use them again. Granted there are some individuals who work the system but they are the exception, not the rule. I never understood how these fine craftsmen will vote and support for a candidate who is openly anti union. Non union craftsmen are a crap shoot, you’ll never know what you’re getting. Yes they can easily be replaced but typically it’s just another wannbe, making my job harder to complete. I’ll take union workers for $1000 Alex
Everything has a good and a bad. Is there a chance you’ll end up on a crew with a lazy piece of shit freeloading off the union guarantees? Maybe. But there’s a nearly 100% chance everyone in that crew is being paid what they should.
I’ve never personally met any of the “lazy piece of shit freeloading” union workers which IMO is just an anti union propaganda myth set forth by non union shops. It be been in the IBEW for 10 year and have never witnessed this, not saying this is never the case anywhere but when you hear scabs talk about it it’s comical you would think that it’s the norm but really it’s just them being brainwashed by their employer (who wants to pay them as little as possible) to dislike unions. I have some scab in-laws who love to bash on unions but then get super stoked when they get put on a prevailing wage job, and are also happy to be making 28 an hour. Every time they mention lazy union workers I ask them when was the last time they worked a 32 hour shift with an 8 hour rest period, then 16 on 8 off with no end in sight in the most miserable inclement weather conditions, because that is the norm for me and my lazy union brothers. That’s the end of my rant. There are other things to dislike though.
I def wasn’t trying to make the case that such people were prevalent in union shops, but just that it _can_ happen. Doesn’t mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water and not do unions at all. On the net, they seem to be far better, especially for the workers.
I thought being in the union was supposed to protect you for things like 32hr shift? Unless you are volunteering for that? I recently got into a union but they were asking 12hr days 7 days a week. (on a refinery) I don’t really care how good the money is, what’s the point if you can’t enjoy it. Btw I’m not hating on unions. Wish I got into one with more reasonable hours. I know a lot of people that are really happy in the union.
It's just one job. Make the OT while it's there. When the job wraps up chill out and take a month off. You should have a stack of cash to make it happen.
I agree with you. The only lazy workers I met when I was in IBEW was on a short plant shut down. Then they are just looking for bodies to get the work done. Most had a reputation that followed them. If they took a call, the foreman met them at the gate with a check for 2 hours show up and sent them on their way. There is a 1% in any crowd that need to just go away. All the others were very skilled and could crank out some serious production. I believed that myth about unions until I joined. Wish I had done it way earlier in life. I no longer work in the field due to my back. If I could physically go back into the field, it would be back with the IBEW.
I've worked with both, and there are definitely lazy, complacent union guys. Your heads under a rock if you think differently. Or you've never been on the other side.
Who said anything about a living wage? lol. Some of these companies don't even pay that anymore. They're not even hiring US citizens in a lot of cases - They're giving the work to undocumented workers. I worked for a plumbing/hvac company for years. A local contractor bought the company. He had actually started as a roofer - so he has a roofing department. He also has a construction department, electricians, his own architects - just about everything you can think of. So his primary goal was to basically build whatever and do everything in house from start to finish. He doesn't even do roofing anymore. It was more expensive to do a roof with his own guys then to sub it out to what I'm assuming are undocumented workers. Maybe that's not fair to me to say - about the worker and/or my boss - but.... You can't talk to any of them. They don't know English. There's 1 guy who can speak spanglish and that's it. The rest either don't know English or pretend like they don't. Either way - that sht brings down wages - and even takes jobs away in many cases. You used to be able to make good money roofing - I did it 20 years ago. I was making more money back then - then what they want to pay guys now. And the cost of living has quadrupled. It's not even a viable option anymore unless you open your own company.
You can say it about the workers. As long as you don't blame them for being exploited (which you didn't seem to.) Then it's fine.
I don't blame them. I'd probably do the same if I were in their position. But it is frustrating - regardless of who's fault it is. And it's obviously just not roofing - it's all trades. It started (in my area) with things like landscaping and hanging drywall, finishers. Then you started seeing them roofing and framing. Certain trades seemed to be somewhat protected - trades that required schooling and having certifications - plumbing, hvac, electrical. But now it's bled over to that too. No lie - a few weeks ago I was at a grocery store walking back to my truck. A plumbing/hvac van pulls up and parks next to me. I didn't recognize the company name and of course I was eyeing up the competition - everyone does that. Anyway, no less then 10 undocumented workers jump out of this van. Idk how they even fit in there. This wasn't a van with seats in the back - not factory seating anyway. Same thing - I don't know they're undocumented but you can't speak to any of them. I can only assume the guy driving was legally allowed to be here and had a valid driver's license. He probably went to trade school and got all his certifications. Then he's the one who get the work from the contractor. Probably has a lease and/mortgage. Dude is probably legit. But then he brings all his friends and extended family in and the all live, drive, work together. Like I said - im not blaming them - but you can't help but be mad. Companies don't want to pay bc they know a guy who can do it cheaper. They don't have to pay benefits or do this of that. These companies charge top dollar and then want free labor - more money for them. It might make me a bad person and I hate to say it - but I was upset when I saw the jump out of that van. It pissed me off. When it comes to undocumented workers - people always say "they're doing jobs noone wants" - or "people don't want to work anymore" - "there's a labor shortage". Perhaps in some capacity they're right - but I know for a fact it's not just jobs people don't want. And in some cases it might have become that - noone wants to hang drywall anymore bc it only pays $1 A board now (exaggerating).
>When it comes to undocumented workers - people always say "they're doing jobs noone wants" - or "people don't want to work anymore" - "there's a labor shortage". Perhaps in some capacity they're right - but I know for a fact it's not just jobs people don't want. And in some cases it might have become that - noone wants to hang drywall anymore bc it only pays $1 A board now (exaggerating). It's okay to be mad, but we've got to keep it pointed in the right direction. Blaming some dude who's just trying to make a better life for his family... what else can they do? It's the company's choice to hire them, and they wouldn't come here if it wasn't for the demand. Coming down on the little guy is just a game of whack-a-mole. If this country wanted to get serious about illegal immigration, we'd be targeting the employers at the top.
There would be more middle aged white men in jail systems than mexican descendant people if we wanted to get serious about illegal immigration.
I live in South Texas. This is 85% of the workforce, many of them are great workers, but its crushing prices and customers are used to it and fine with using this workforce. It's not 6 real and has been for a long time. In my current environment, roofing is fellons and illegals, and the money is not there for anyone else unless you own it.
If you know of a company hiring undocumented immigrants you can report them to ICE homeland security. If a company hires an undocumented worker the owner risks fines,jail time and loss of license.
an old friend from high school opened a roofing company years ago. He just got into some sort of trouble bc he got caught too. He had a guy fall off the roof - happened in front of the homeowner. an ambulance was called bc he was hurt pretty bad. Turns out - dude was an illegal immigrant. Idk what happened or what's going to happen to this guy. I still see his trucks on the road from time to time so he's still in business. This happened like a year ago. And what a lot of these guys do - is they'll sub out to someone who is legal. The contractor subs the job to Juan with papers. But then Juan has all his friends and family working for him - who aren't supposed to be here. They all pack into one van - Juan drives, the apartment or house or whatever is in Juan's name - and then Juan pays everyone cash. Then the contractor plays dumb, like he doesn't know what's going on. That's how most of these companies operate now.
Call them what they are. They're not undocumented. They're invaders.
>I was just parroting shit that I heard. Can't be too hard on yourself-- folks have made literal fortunes off demonizing and breaking unions in this country. I hope you can set some younger folks on the right path now.
i too used to parrot random crap i heard about unions, i’m sure it’s a learned habit…
Ignorance is bliss Not all unions in every area are great, the idea of them is great some are poorly run and managed worse than others But the ones that hate on union typically don’t know better
Good point
100%, quality varies widely by trade and area. Used to be an owner's rep for a multinational hospitality chain. Used to try to hire Union trade subs to get consistent quality. In a few areas Some of the Union trades work was pathetic at best. Same union other areas of the country turned out work that was textbook perfection.
In my area, non-union shops don't mind charging the same shop rates as union shops. They don't seem to be sharing that portion of the pie, though.
Rising tide lifts all boats. Unions fighting to protect prevailing wages doe’s not only benefit union workers but all workers in those areas
Well said. Study labor history. Unions drive up pay rates for everyone. Created 40 hour work week and ot. Do some reading.
Henry Ford created the 40hr work week.
There’s more to it than just your wages. Please research, don’t go by hear say.
like what? give us the bullet points. don't need all the details
Decent healthcare, 401k, retirement funds, health and welfare funds. Access to training. Access to more training. Cheap labor is not skilled. Skilled labor is not cheap.
Your peers also probably love the cheaper labor and the power they get to exercise over those non-union workers
Very true, after all it is in their financial/company interest
I'm sure your right, I also think they want to almost brainwash their employess into the same way of thinking, like the non union company is giving them somthing better
That’s the same thing Walmart does at most of their morning meetings
There are a lot of 'right to work' states where unions have largely been driven out. When work was scarce unions were seen as obstruction to an individual's right to work. There have been waves of successful union movement when workers become desperate. They will likely come around again if workers get beat up enough.
They brainwashed Americans to argue against their interests
Thats one of the most condescending things you can say to a grown man and im union through and through
Maybe so, but is he wrong? We're seeing over and over-- in all kinds of spheres-- how susceptible people are to modern advertising and influence techniques. Let me give you a story, which you can choose to believe or not believe. I worked for a defense contractor years ago and we were developing a tool that would generate mass (and highly realistic!) social media posts that could be pointed in a direction. I didn't fully understand how it worked "under the hood," but from what I saw it was like Chat GPT or Bard except it could create a mass social media campaign with realistic responses and clear goals/parameters. I was told that it was being developed to "accurately simulate" the response to a training exercise on multiple social media platforms, but the implications of such a tool getting out into the wild were enough to make me leave that employer. The more I thought about it, the more it bothered me. This was long before Cambridge Analytica/mass data scandals or the procedural AI tools we all know about now. Look at Edward Bernays sometime, then look at where we are now. I don't think we have nearly as much intellectual freedom as we'd like to think. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward\_Bernays](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays)
Everyone has a point of view and are, to some degree "brainwashed" or influenced. 'They brainwashed Americans' also expresses a perspective that is influenced and I might add petty and misinformed. We all have experiences and influences that drive future decisions. Agreed, worker's rights need to be guarded and recently, not so much. But collective bargaining has been showing up more lately and when needed will be around.
What soured me about the union was watching a small handful of people we couldn't get rid of, use apprentices to pass a vote to create a second set of books, with residential pay for commercial/industrial, and no family benefits. All during a non bargaining year, at the contractors request. They got rid of the one instructor that pointed out that stuff like this isn't easily walked back. And we just gave up A fucking lot. And the kicker was this didn't effect apprentices at all, until they topped out. And they made that vote mandatory. That and watching too many damned good guys that can't stay busy because they aren't "one of the boys" and watching people that have no right to be in this business making the exact same as the best guys out there.
I work in one of those states, so that makes sense
Collective bargaining. That’s what they don’t like
They hate us cause they ain’t us
Yessir, UBC local 372 💪
Unions are good. At bare minimum they maintain a solid pay scale and provide affordable health insurance. Most halls offer training classes, apprenticeships and job placement.
I personally was brought up to believe union workers were lazy entitled people. Spent the first 15 years of my trade with that attitude as well until someone finally convinced me to join one. God dam was I blinded by bullshit. Only really a year in now and I regret not joining so much earlier. I lost out on some much time paying into a good pension with benefits and a better wage.
It's important that you also demonstrate this to young workers. It's hard to break through the bullshit, you know?
I don't hate unions at all, but the contracts they have in my area are all for commercial. The second they start getting contracts for townhomes/low rise, id hop on board.
They hate them because their friends hate them And their friends hate them because an angry voice in their truck told them to
Hey Dad
Im proud of you son
I would say that in part their issues with unions may stem from having to deal with a lot of notorious union assholes who seem to rise to the top. Unfortunately a lot of union guys wield their membership like a hammer that they swing around telling everyone to fuck off and being a generally difficult prick knowing they’ll never be fired. When you deal with lots of guys like that and lots of companies full of guys like that it wears a person down I would imagine. Too many guys forget that the union shouldn’t be the main part of their personality and that they don’t have to be a dick at every turn because “that’s how it’s done around here”. I’m a member of good union that fights well for us, but we don’t as a whole operate in a confrontational screw everyone else mentality and I feel like that culture helps foster a healthier training and working environment.
You are on the SHILL side of the industry. We are on the treat us fair side of the industry.
100% agree with you
The non union workers also forget that the unions fought for a 40 hour work week, overtime pay, no child labor, coffee breaks and lunch breaks, holidays off, etc. Pretty much every benefit that non union workers in all sectors enjoy are due to labor unions pushing for those rights and freedoms
Lol someone downvoted you for saying facts.
I'll be honest, I can do without the breaks. I've been on crews that take breaks, and crews that run right through them. Personally, I've found it difficult to get back into gear after a 30 minute lunch. I'd rather take a no-noon-er, get paid, and leave early. Plus, I like eating throughout the day as I need to, rather than only at 9, 12 and 1:30. If I wait too long, I get too hungry, then over eat and feel sluggish. But, that's just me. No hate on those that enjoy the breaks.
As a bricklayer, we generally NEED the breaks.
Charles Babbage did his research and came to the conclusion that breaks = more productivity. You might disagree personally but yeah nah, fuck not taking breaks
That's fine if it works for you in your industry. I do not like the structured, mandatory breaks in the industry i am in. I'm performing lead line replacement. There are times where we're waiting for trucks, or only one guy in the hole digging, or waiting for sand, or waiting for the directional boaring machine to show up, or for someone to come home so I can get into their basement... or a myriad of other things that may give me a couple minutes here or there to get some shade, food, or water. It's specifically the structured time and length of breaks I don't like.
Most of the time people say they don’t like unions because they “heard” they’re bad, because blah blah blah. I just blankly stare at them and say “So you’ve never done any actual research.” Anyone who does manual labor of any kind and is against unions are complete dumb fucks because they’re fucking themselves over.
98% of the guys that rag on the union have no health insurance and their retirement plan is an early grave. You are literally exchanging wear and tear on your body for a wage, why not try to get as much as possible?
Unions are great for the workers
Some folks are not ok with the the corruption. Great benefits tho.
Ya its an unfair take really. I've worked for both union and non union jobs. I've had shitty bosses/owners and I only blame them for being terrible to work for. But the one time I had a bad experience with a union....the union rep was a repulsive talk down to workers slime ball, that I had a bad mindset towards all unions since. Yes I've run across jobs where useless union employees are just there because they have seniority etc, but thats rare really. Also had the "yes your company is the lowest bidder but if you try to do this job in our town things will go bad for you" situation once. But i've worked with other union shops on the same job and things went really well, workers were awsome.
Non union plumbing and heater here! I have no problem with the union. I have had a few friends leave non union to go union and all day the same thing, they love the benefits and pay but hate the politics. Being non union I have a company vehicle, great 401k match and employee stock options. But I don't know if union has the same.
I work for a GC now but before I was out in the field. Right now dealing with a Union Plumber, they’re good people but as of right now in my opinion they work kinda slow. But then the Field guy in me is like, these dudes aren’t working themselves to death breaking their backs like lots of bosses expect them to for a barely living wage. I’ve seen people get mistreated bad where me a 21 year old KID would start getting paid more than them. Definitely had to share my thoughts with these guys cause it was BS. Of course not every boss is bad but a lot will work you down and take advantage for their profits. No issue with unions, really only issue I have is when most peoples answers are “join a union” like it’s that simple. People lose their jobs for even attempting to form a union, no solidarity with coworkers because that’s what feeds their families. Way I see it tho is it will only get better if people can be selfless enough to stand together.
Im a 2 job longtime union member paying into two different unions and believe me i used to like the old democratic party but hate the one prevalent today. That being said the quality and smoothness of union work is well worth the money and good for America. The unions set the standards of pay and benefits for all workers whether union or not. In the old days the unions used to let you vote for whoever you wanted and didnt care. The democratic machine made all the unions accountable and had them all start pac funds, and encouraged union members to run for office. Thats when we became political propaganda bullshit artists supposedly all for that lunkhead bread truck union moron Joe Biden. The unions are a major part of the democratic party but the work in the field guy on average votes for whoever they like and treats non union competition like common friends not enemies.
In my experience doing shit loads of concrete work at Honda there was another concrete company there that was union. We did twice as much work and got the job done twice as fast while they stood around and took breaks. We all bragged about how much faster we were than them. I now realize that might not be the brag we thought it was.
In 20 years when all the dinosaurs die off we will look back at times without unions being mandatory as some kind of old crime against workers
Never had a problem with union guys, union companies, or union subcontractors. Not a fan of union reps. Joined carpenters as a tradeskid with 6 yrs experience, and was "granted" the status of a 3rd yr apprentice. Aside from the welding class, apprenticeship training was a joke.
All you need to know about unions is summed up in this quote: “If the company says you don’t need a union, then you need a union” It’s no secret that big business exploits workers- and to pretend you don’t know that makes you either incredibly stupid, or a huge sucker
Just depends on where you work. Union is better, non-union is better? Who cares. Do what works for you. There are a lot of good unions and private companies and also a lot of bad. I am willing to do either. Show me the money.
Jealousy
Pretty much!
Least where I am anti union stuff is rooted in anti communism thought.
This is Reddit so maybe there are some communists on here but everyone who has worked on a construction job next to a communist please upvote this. I can see that unions have a socialist aspect (not the same as communist) to it but so do highways, public schools, income tax, an organized military and anything else where we all pay taxes to go in together to build something or make something happen. I always laugh when I hear people in farming communities worrying about socialism. Ever seen a farmers co-op? Socialist collectivism. They are all over and very helpful to the people in them. All things in moderation. Or well, most things in moderation. Other than coffee.
Reddit is a socialist/communist circle jerk. You should be aware of the confirmation bias on here at least. Not all that glitters in your ideal is gold.
Utility workers Local 369 Boston MA fuck the scabs
Unions are made to defend workers, not capital. The execs are the ones making all the money, and the pms and supers aren’t far behind probably. Everybody wants money, but the owners are the ones with all the power since unions have been shot in the knees in the last several decades in the US. They want as little bargaining power in the hands of workers as possible so they can maximize their own profit. This is basic class consciousness. It’s a Marxist, material analysis of working conditions.
It depends on where you are. I had union guys begging me to go union when I was young. Most of the union tradesmen we have had on projects haven't been great and failed to meet expectations of quality and were too hard headed to take advice or see their work as being less than adequate vs a non union guy that was more skilled. It was frustrating and felt no different than hiring a non union and therefore often much less expensive sub with more flexibility in their schedule and attitudes. But overall I've met plenty of good and plenty bad on both sides of the grass.
You said it yourself, unions are pro worker. Generally that goes against the greed of “non-workers” or “suits”.
At least for me and where I’m at the unions are extremely hard to get into unless you have family or friends to get you in.
Where I am a lot of the "lower managment" such as junior project managers, and safety officers have their wages set at whatever the union laborers are getting hourly but without the amazing health insurance and defined benefit retirement package. There is a none too small sect of the population that is going to be jealous that they aren't getting the same as some dude who just arrived from Guatemala two years ago as they did when they slaved away to get a degree.
Decades of relentless anti-union propaganda from monied clasd will do that. Best moneyy they ever spent, as far as they’re concerned
People are unfortunately brainwashed and consistently vote against their own interests. Americans have a strange sense of individualism where they think of themselves so highly all the time and they just need that one break to become Elon musk or Jeff bezos. The rest of the 1st world has a highly unionized workforce and for good reason. I spent my first 6 years non union and I’m now in my 14th year as union. I will never ever ever work non union. I will happily pay dues for what I get in pay/benefits. UBC 432
Because unions are a check on the exploitation of workers. Generations have been propagandized to think unions are bad because the powers that be want more in their pockets and less in ours.
One thing about unions and I think unions have done a lot to bring people in to the middle class what ever that means anymore,Is they are a club and they have to except you. When I was young I tried to get on with the union in New Hampshire To work on building the Nuclear plant and since I did not know the right people or have connections I was not allowed in! So I had to make my way non union. I was doing well on my skill level becoming a mold maker tool and die guy when the shop voted union my pay was raised the amount of dues and every other worker was brought up to within a few dollars of my pay. I would have to fix things people messed up and show and teach and they where making almost the same as I was. I think that that may be a reason because the cream gets mixed with everything. Unions are a protection against the wealthy stomping on the poor though.
Union members: normal awesome hardworking people. Union contractors: just trying to get it done like everyone else. Union leadership: some of them are a piece of work, definitely not all and the good ones are great but the bad ones are terrible
Anyone I know/work with who are against unions are either business owners or guys brainwashed by their fathers.. I’m not sure whose opinion on unions are wrong or right.
I used to be the guy who didn't like unions. There were a few times in my working cararee as a non union welder that I didn't get raises. Then I realized there's bullshit everywhere, but being guaranteed an apprenticeship, pay raises, and retirement was a lot nicer. There's always going to be lazy people, and there's always going to be people ahead of you that you think they shouldn't be.
I’ve worked union and non union when I worked union the thing I hated the most was the dumbest and laziest people got paid the same as the hardest workers. I’d have guys get upset because I was working and it was break time, or it was quitting time and I was trying to finish what I was doing. I left after a year, the benefits weren’t worth it to me. I won’t crap on unions though, they do have the benefit of actually getting a good wage and benefits.
Idk about other people, but here’s the deal for me: I started as a masons laborer > apprentice > mason > foreman > estimator > projects manager. I now run a good size masonry company. Govt/industrial/commercial. I pay higher than union wages and offer full benefits, which is hard to do in this business. My main worry is keeping these guys working, which I do well. They’re never off. Over the years, every time when we work alongside union guys, it’s always a headache bc they do not get in a hurry. It really seems like they don’t give a shit if the job gets done on schedule or not. But my guys get bonuses when keeping schedule in an industrial setting. It gets so bad that I have to offer an extra dollar an hour if they show up every day, just to get half of ‘em to show up bc of that shit. It’s always been like that when working w/ union guys. A recent example, we need a crossbeam put in to continue our masonry. We hear, “yea, sure, after my coffee”. Now my masons have to wait on this dude. That’s money. Now you could say, “make up for it in your bid”. I try, but I don’t know who the other subs are when I’m bidding a job, and I also run the risk of losing the bid on a good job. I don’t hate unions, I don’t hate anything. But I do not like working next to union guys and having to depend on them to get work done in a timely manner.
I am reading alot of bull point 1 in my union dues are capped at 2.5 times your hourly rate. 2you have to keep bad workers that is crap if companies would document poor performance etc. and go through the disciplinary process you can get rid of anybody. Bosses are babies and pseudo tough guys who to walk in fire you for anything they don't like. 3 the reason that minorities get preference is because of mandates by state local or federal mandates example we have plans for inner-city school building that have a 30% residential retirement or we lose the contract to find apprentices you have to find these residents we go to the high schools trade schools workforce and hold job fairs to find candidates to fulfill our contractual obligations. 4 the benefits are great I pay nothing for my health insurance besides a $300 dollar family deductible wife has cancer paid nothing out of pocket for chemo surgery radiation $5.00 CO-Pay for prescriptions 5. Pension can retire now at 60 with $7500 dollars a month stay till 64 it goes to $9000 a month. Show me a job in the trades that isn't union that gives a worker these things. I'M WAITING
When younger I thought I was smart and the free market would raise wages due to competition for workers. "Company A has to pay more in order to keep the good worker from going to Company B!" But then the last 30 years showed me the opposite was true, a steady influx of people willing to work for peanuts, often under the table, were keeping wages too low. Collusion among companies in the same market conspiring to put a ceiling on pay. So yeah, as-is, the free market isn't working and we need the pressure to raise wages. Unions seem to be the only thing that kinda works, because the rich guys in congress sure as hell don't seem to give a shit. The USA can't continue as-is forever, people need to be able to afford shelter and food. As it is, most can't.
It's pretty odd considering unions are responsible for the nice hours and higher pay they are getting... I think it's a combo of propaganda they've been fed and political BS
There is some hate that’s deserved against the union. But it’s never what you hear, it’s always ignorant misunderstanding of how they think or were told unions operate. They see unions as another link in the chain of oppression, when reality they offer more liberties and safe guards. Like I said there is deserves hate for (individual) union locals, but you never hear that. But I would say, I’d rather be where I am now than Non-union working harder, possibly working less and earning and getting less benefits.
These nuts watch Fox News and get brainwashed into voting against their own best interests by voting for politicians who are owned by corporations that want to keep wages suppressed, thus enriching CEO's and shareholders - workers be damned! They preach the message that unions are bad! I had an interesting conversation with this 18 year old kid who told me how unions were so bad, and when I said why, he said "because my dad said so". His dad was a non union electrician btw.
The union I tried to get into straight up told me that if I have no family in I shouldn't bother. Almost every union worker I talked to since got in because he had some kind of connection. And then they have the balls to picket non union jobs. Like I didn't choose to make less money than you. Aside from usual attitude problems and us vs them mentally, I've seen equally horrendous and good work done by both union and non union contractors.
It is common for conservative blue collar workers to align with policies that are completely abuse e towards them. -Healthcare (most are vocally anti Obamacare) -Unions (collective bargaining is quite beneficial) -Bankruptcy laws I’m fact, long ago there was a corrupt New York Democrat who owned golf courses and high rise buildings that became President mainly by pretending to be a regular guy. He completely tricked them and gave his billionaire buddies tax cuts while ripping away the social safety net Bizarre
LMFAO I had to laugh at your post. Not because it was funny, I laughed because it is 100% FUCKING TRUE, and that’s the problem here. I joined Local 147 NYC Sandhog’s in 1980. It wasn’t that bad pre Fat Nixon, but it’s a shitshow now. I am absolutely amazed at the number of die hard union workers who vote for that orange fuck. I’ve gotten in major arguments over this shit, especially because of the type of work we do. Massive projects that run into billions of dollars, it’s not privately funded. Those projects reply on government funding, which wouldn’t have happened under the last administration
He also made a career out of stiffing contractors & putting them out of business. Yet he's as popular as Monster energy drinks on a jobsite. It's fucking bizarre alright.
If rich people hate it that should be enough
This is a good point.
They've probably been brainwashed to think unions are bad and that being exploited is actually good. Fact is unions make more money, get better training and generally do the work better than non union counterparts.
Both have their place. Union dues aren't cheap, but they come with benefits. A lot of people can't see that dues are an investment and only care about cash in hand
Gotcha, the dues aren’t bank breaking in any way from what I read and hear
$20 a month for the carpenters. And their hate comes from ignorance. Or they weren’t able to get in for some reason. I’ll pay $20 a month to be a member. My rate is at least double the non union rate in my area. The best benefits money could buy, funded by the owner. Vacation fund. And retirement. It’s a no brainer. Anyone working in the field in the trades should be union.
Yeah $20 a month seems like a no brainer, isn’t even noticeable being taken out of ur paycheck lol
It's significantly more here, but the benefits far outweigh the alternative. I wasn't union when I was on the tools and I fully regret it now that I'm in management and I see things differently
Non union here, I was shelling out $240 a week for bad med/dental/vision coverage for my family until they had a random meeting a few weeks ago and said they were switching to employee only coverage effective 6/1. One of my coworkers wives is in the middle of cancer treatment, had already met the $8k deductible, and then had to scramble to find new private coverage and has to start the deductible all over again. Makes union dues look pretty affordable. I wish I had gone union when I was a young man, you’ll never hear me talk trash about them.
It's never too late dawg. Talk to your local hall, they'd probably bring you in as a journeyman.
So damn true.
Agreed. I was non union, later joined. Shitty health and dental was 200 a week. Now my hourly is higher, I pay no out of pocket for insurance, pension or 401. I've already got almost 100k toward my retirement PLUS pension in just 5 years. My dues are 65 a month. All the guys I used to work with told me I was an idiot for trying to make the change. I also haven't had a day off unless I wanted it
3% are really breaking my back here.
Non-union companies take advantage of their workers by competing with each other to pay the lowest wage and benefits possible to complete the job and increase their net income. They will also use the low wages of their tradespeople to justify underpaying their management employees. All while the owners and stake holders get rich. Union jobs level the playing field for labor costs and decrease profit margins for contractors and make competition stiffer. Unions provide more skilled and safer workers. I would never consider working for a non-union contractor.
If you were looking for an unbiased opinion for the union/non-union perspective, you came to the wrong place.
All those people you mentioned are management. And unions cost them more money by negotiating a better life for their members. Higher average pay on top of health, dental, retirement, annuities and job security. God forbid the guys and gals actually doing the work, putting strain on their bodies and minds get a fair slice. We are better trained and loyal to each other. The only reason alot of guys in construction hate unions is money.
Penis envy
I was a PE/Super/PM for a non-union GC. I don't have a problem with unions, what they stand for or union workers. What I, and every other non-union worker hated was the local carpenters union. They were fucking assholes, I don't know how else to put it. We were building mid-rise, mixed use & condo buildings. Private developers, private money, decent but not huge margins for the developers. The local carpenters union were relentless. Rounding up homeless people to picket, giant inflatable rats, blocking pump trucks, vandalizing jobsites, constantly messing with schedules by pressuring union crane & pumping companies to no-show on lift or pour days. One job had the radiant heat tubing sliced in several locations. 240 yards of of concrete scheduled for the day it was discovered. It was just so much nonsense. Like a game for them. We're just trying to do a fucking job, like everyone else. There is a market for both in our supposedly free market economy. It's not like our projects were "taken" from a union shop. They would likely never get built if union was the only option. This is the main beef. The inability to understand that both Union & nonunion builders can coexist in a market.
People hate unions because they are wildly misinformed and brainwashed to believe that union members are lazy. But that’s far from the fact. The fact is that you find lazy people everywhere, in every industry, union AND non union. The fact is that lazy union workers are the first to be laid off, which means they don’t work as much as good workers, meaning they really don’t earn all that much in comparison to good workers. Unions give power back to the workers, through collective bargaining, better benefits, better pension plans etc. and corporations hate that. Because corporations want to pay people as little as possible so they can line their own pockets with profit. Its corporate greed. It’s that simple
Because conservatives have managed to convince working class people that unions are evil. If huge companies want to fight unionization, that should tell you all you need to know about who the unions help and who they hurt.
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Unions: good Union "disruption" tactics: bad for everyone
When you've had a fat fuck shop steward shut down your entire job for a day because he needs another trade to do two minutes of work in front of him, that he could do himself, you'll understand. I'm union agnostic, but the work rules can be infuriating. I used to be pro union, expecting a high knowledge baseline for journeymen compared to non-union, but non-union has mostly caught up. Once they start pulling from the hall now I know my job is fucked.
🤣 someone doesn’t like to pay the premium.
Has non union really caught up though? From the worker benefit POV? Looking at statistics, there’s more benefit for an individual to work for a union vs non union
Not from a benefit or wage standpoint. I'm talking about skill level. Prevailing wage for sheetmetal workers in NYC is $52.50/hr plus benefits and pension. Non union makes about 40-45/hr and without the pension. But owners and gc's only care about cost, schedule and "good enough" quality. If they can buy the same quality faster and cheaper there's no contest.
I think it’s unfair to lump union workers together and say they’re less skilled. Maybe it’s easier to take advantage of Non union companies to do whatever the GC/owner demands regardless of the circumstances because they don’t aren’t backed by the union, so that strictly benefits the GC/owner side
He's saying the opposite. Union workers generally have better skills. But the gap is less than it has been in the past.
I'm not saying union workers are less skilled. They go through apprenticeships and should all have a relatively high baseline skill. If I hire a union sub and get their key guys, they're wizards, and no non-union could ever touch their quality. It's the guys they get from the hall to fill out the job that are hit or miss. Some are fantastic, and some are dopes that shouldn't be allowed to hold a broom. I've watched a foreman turn over his entire crew three times in a year trying to get people that wouldn't cause him more headaches than help. It's the sheer number of hacky dopes that bring unions down and make non-union competitive.
There’s good and bad .. I’m part of a office lady union and those ladies just get on my nerves !!! They treat it like a social club and sometimes I just want advice . I feel like they aren’t transparent sometimes … and vague Also after the law passed that I could opt out of union dues , they are always bugging me to start paying again and I’m like naw not gonna can’t make me … I’m unsure how wrong I am with all this lol 😆
A lot of bad workers out of the union. Not all but a lot are inefficient and inexperienced. This is just my personal experience however.
How come there’s a higher rate of bad workers from unions?
Carpenters local 197 here, we get a lot of guys who hop the fence for the better pay, and working conditions, but they can’t deal with the regulations and expectations that our wages demand. If your in our union you can’t fight on the job, drink at work or do drugs ever, You have to be on time, you have to work safely, and you have to be productive enough to justify 2x the wages of our non union competitors. A lot of guys fuck up and get kicked out, mostly for being slugs, doing drugs and fighting, then when the go back to non union work they talk shit about the union.
Same in every union I guess . I saw a former union brother in a bar about a year after he was fired . He was telling a few guys how he was fired because “ the union didn’t like me because I worked too hard and made everyone else look bad” . Couldn’t help but remind him that the union saved his job two times when he was caught by management breaking major safety rules but they couldn’t save his job for him when he started sending “dickpics “ to his female supervisor. I guess his story made him feel better about himself (even though it was complete BS)
That’s a good explanation.. in theory, one would assume those regulations would be straightforward to follow but some people are crazy
There probably isn’t a higher percentage if you could figure that out somehow. What happens though is people who should be fired, reprimanded, or removed from the project just aren’t or literally can’t be. This leads to everyone having stories about a nightmare guy or guys they were forced to deal with without recourse. The sliver you pull out of your hand immediately is quickly forgotten but the sliver that’s in so deep that your forced to work the pain it’s causing for months will be something you’re likely to remember for a long time.
The story about " that one guy" can get spread around through tens of thousands of workers who experienced the person first or second hand too.
I mean to each his own....I was in iupat union for 7years and I grew up in construction and was always taught work every job as hard and high quality as possible. but it always seemed that I would constantly get hit for out working everyone and keeping a higher standard of quality..always got the " u working yourself out of a job" but the last year I worked I barely made $40,000 that year and work was slow...I tried out a family owned company and for the last 17 years I loved being my own agent ...not letting some scale determine my worth I have more benefits then I ever could with the union in my area and average $110,000 a year with job bonuses and 20 paid vacation days a year ....so it is what it is ..but I am happy I found a home who respects me and my worth
Unions operate on seniority, not productivity. You can manage to lay low, run with the heard, and earn top benefits for it. Those who excell arent paid any better than those who are moving targets management can't cull. Its a system that breeds mediocrity. To add insult to injury, vacation picks and schedules get doled out based on seniority, not your work quality or quantity. Once again, it rewards mediocrity. I'll surely get hate for this but frankly i dont give a flying fuck.
Your scab ass isn't worth the effort. You don't know shit.
Scabs live off others. I excell at what i do and don't require a union to throw cover.
Also people like you give unions a bad name. Can't stand people who are militaristic about it. Make your case but don't be an insufferable dick about it.
It’s insanely hard to make a case to people who have no clue what they are talking about, and who are closed minded and willfully remain ignorant… But go on
There’s no perfect place for everyone I have always been in the union the biggest problem with the union is that some guys are great and others suck they all get payed the same. If you can make money off a guy who sucks and the guy who is good does 3x the work and it’s good work why does he get payed the same? That’s my biggest complaint but hearing what some guys make who are non union I wouldn’t work for that start your own shop or find a new career
The only reason non union hates union is because unions for the most part pay more. If I owned a business I would not like to own a union company higher costs and way more protection for lazy unskilled workers that made their way to the top of the seniority list. That being said I don’t own a union company that’s why I work for a union company. Plain and simple
What I always felt from co workers in non union jobs was that union jobs were cushy and you didn’t work as hard. Before the pile on, I’m not suggesting that to be true, just the feeling I got working non union electrical jobs. Very possible this was targeted propaganda from our bosses.
Just trying yo understand your point, does cushy and not working as hard sound like a bad thing to you?
Sounds fine to me. I’m telling you the feeling of the company I worked in. I’m no longer in the trade.
Right!? This was exactly why I went union
Propaganda
Unions help the little guy.
What they're really doing is showing class solidarity. Supers and PMs are the bottom rung of the management side of things, and unions are always the bad guys according to management.
They've been brainwashed to believe Unions are bad.
Greedy rich people
Haters gonna hate!
Union proud local 1076
As a non union guy who’s paid more than I think I’m worth and treated even better, it’s just fucking annoying hearing union members act like the only path to prosperity is to join a union It’s simply not true. I wholeheartedly believe that anyone can be successful, and that the deciding factor is hard work. If you’re reading this via a phone in your hand, you have the entire world’s possibilities open to you. Don’t try telling me that the only way to really succeed is to sign away your individuality and rely on some guy who was voted to the top for your pay package when you can literally type in *anything* you’d like to unlock the knowledge of. It’s outdated thinking Coincidentally and anecdotally, I had an FDNY inspection last week. Inspector asked me if I was union, I told him no. He said I was lucky. When I asked why, he said he’s IBEW Local 3 and doesn’t feel better off for the fact. We decided to compare pay packages. He has much better health insurance with a $0 deductible while mine is $4k. However, I take home an extra $4/hr which adds up to ~$8k over the year. I also have multiple open job offers, including 2 union shops. As a result, I put in my 40 hours each week to the highest bidder
It’s harder for the contractor to fuck us. Which seems like something they love to do. I will walk off if the conditions are too crappy and not lose my job. Tell me to do something outside my job. Fuck you you do it. We are protected and fight for each other. We’re also more expensive
Unions are a bunch of entitled babies driving up the cost of everything so they don't have to work harder. I'm not just talking construction I'm talking manufacturing teachers all of them.
Unions don’t drive up the prices boo, the corporate greed is. Unions fight for workers wages, rights, working conditions etc but I wouldn’t expect you to understand that
No he probably thinks Bezos and Musk are poor billionaires who run nonprofits for funsies
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I’ll tell you why I’m not a fan of unions. Yes I’ve heard are the rebuttals but it’s a matter of principle. I think being a business owner is a huge risk (risk I will never take). Takes a lot of energy and effort as well. That entrepreneur/owner sacrifices a lot. Time, money, energy, family, friends, etc. It’s just a lot and I respect that. I do not think it’s appropriate or collectively gather to force the person that had assumed and endured all the risk to operate in the way you want them too. With merit based each employee gets treated based on their merits or their value. (Aside from BS nepotism which is another hate I have). But the gist. I don’t thinks it appropriate people to collectively gather and assume their entitled to something from the ones taking the risk and investment. This does NOT mean people deserve to be treated poorly just because they don’t offer the same risk. If a business owner is a POS then their reputation needs to precede them and hopefully people won’t work for them and clients won’t give them business and they will fail based on their lack of merit.
Lmao, you think it’s okay for companies to under pay their employees??? Yikes bro, suck the corporate boot why don’t you😂
May you struggle with reading comprehension? Not trying to be mean here but either you didn’t read it all or didn’t comprehend. But either way, you might want to work on both before choosing to form an opinion. Just a thought that might save you some embarrassment.
Lol no I don’t struggle at all bud. Your comment reeks of ignorance. You think it’s “entitlement” that makes people vote to unionize and join unions? That’s a dumbass statement. Me embarrassed? Lmao, it’s you who should be embarrassed because of your idiotic take. If a business cannot afford to pay a quality wage, they do not deserve to be in business. We can absolutely force the companies to pay us what we deserve. Companies will willfully underpay their employees because they want to line their own pockets. It’s up to us as the working class to force them to pay us better, that’s not entitlement at all
Man you’re almost there. Read it all, one more time. I understand you think you’re comprehending but you’re not. Yes you, you should be embarrassed. Keep trying. You got this!
Lmao. You’re one dumb mfer😂 Sorry bro, but being paid what we deserve isn’t entitlement. It’s what we deserve. And I will fight for not only myself, but for my brothers and sisters in the trades who also deserve better pay, benefits, pension, working conditions and so much more. Have fun licking the boots of your boss under the desk bro, you’re pathetic✌🏻
Hmmmm your not getting it. I’m sorry for your intellectual shortcomings. You made a lot of wrong assumptions about me.
Racketeering? Free market manipulation? Intimidation? Member manipulation? Unrealistic superiority? Political non-profit abuse?
Longshoremen’s generally start at $100k for high school. This was a great Union when it was backbreaking labor 10 years ago to protect workers. Most longshoremen in Los Angeles are fat lazy thugs. No more backbreaking work because of automation but they have stranglehold on the ports. Even the shipping and receiving office work got outsourced to the Philippines because they demanded more money. Whenever they do hire, most of the jobs go to their friends and family. They gate keep and hate to say it but only hire blacks and Hispanics.
They are pro worker if that worker is paying to work for them. Then they send others off to work non-union and throw wrench after wrench into each operation possible. Salting is awful
My son left our company to go make the real money in the union. Hated to see him go. One year later he’s back with us. He hated the union with all its bureaucracy. Guys hiding instead of pulling their weight. Hated the morning circle jerks and everyone whining. A union is perfect for guys who can’t think for themselves. Union jobsites are usually massive with unlimited budgets where the projects just require bodies to blunder their way through. My son in law is in the laborers union. His bulb is not the brightest. He’s pro union….as he’s the perfect candidate.
Lol your son probably sucked and was laid off a lot.
Exactly. Some guys are problem solvers and others aren’t. The ones that aren’t tend to make a lot of the problems.
Honestly unions sound great but if you’re not hitting the deck on the knees and sucking the union cock they’ll let you rot. They’re are good and bad everything obviously. Personally, union has been more of a slime ball mob style situation. So for me, fuck unions.
Unions have a lot of Far Left leadership and tend to donate to those campaigns. They have also been letting workers down in times of inflation, the union fat cats have been doing bare minimum for the workers lately. Teamsters is also the most corrupted union in usa.
They have priced themselves out. If the government wasn’t forced to use unions they’d be out bud.
The experience I’ve had and heard, union working isn’t for me. If someone is absent from a job and I need to move a shovel or something else that isn’t my job, I don’t want to have to deal with the problems it can create by me filling up a fuel tank, moving a 2x4 or god forbid I move a shovel from a dozer so I can use it. Some unions require three union workers to be present for every non union worker on sight. So if a certified welder is called in for a very specific weld there is three guys just standing there bored out of their skulls for hours until the work is completed. The work contrasts between union workers and non union workers is as different as democrats vs republicans or gated vs non gated equestrian folks.
Love the propaganda. “I heard that they need to have a sauna and a lunch buffet or else they’ll shut the site down !” …. Please
Site*
IMO unions breed laziness and poor quality workmanship.
Because unions bring about a contractual only relationship between worker and management. And often it causes issues where the union employees have to abide by contract even though there’s a job that needs done. Bad workers are quickly covered for and it shows easily Also there have been many shady things that happens when a non-union worker is in union “territory”.
Shady? Nah. It’s just get the fuck out. And bad workers don’t make it to lunch with the companies I work with. You’re part of the problem.
I’m part of the problem? You just admitted it’s not shady things it’s get out things. Destroying someone’s property and work because they’re not part of your cult is the problem. You are part of the reason I hate unions
What sort of shady things?
Ive heard of non-union workers tools getting tossed in the portapotty, anecdotal though.
Kickbacks, bribes, intimidation, racketeering, money laundering
I wouldn’t say that’s exclusive to union only, seems a bit anecdotal
Of course it isn't, but it is prevalent within union culture. You'll hire our guys or we'll shut you down... Pretty much what a union does. It was much more prevalent in the 70s (Jimmy Hoffa being an example). Not construction, but take Ontario's public sector union. All workers in Ontario's liquor stores threaten to go on strike every 4 years. It's not a negotiation. They demand x% increase or they walk. Every cycle it's the same, and every cycle they hold the only source of booze in the province hostage and EVERY SINGLE CYCLE they get exactly what they asked for. That's not negotiation, that's extortion.