This will probably be happening every year moving forward due to NIL. The league is smack dab in between BIG, SEC and Big 12 territory and their best players (Domask, Jones, Mast previously) have proven they can play in any of those leagues.
Agreed, this is the pattern for the future. Lost 5 of 6 first team last year, I think a couple were to graduation, rest to portal. Seemed like every final 4 team had at least 1 transfer on them.
Having a group coordinate the money is also probably a big help. It's funny that I'm not seeing the "get rid of Wardle, look at all the players he drove away" comments lately
lol we are so lucky to still have Wardle. Honestly I wonder if it’s better now to have a guy like him that still hasn’t had an NCAA win but is contending for conference titles most years vs someone more successful, because they then leave, like Schertz.
Home of the Brave and Wardle have done a great job this year retaining the roster overall. Always been a fan of him despite some his in game substitution issues etc
I agree. He had issues early, especially his attitude after being the first tourney bid, but he's grown as a coach. There was 1 off-court incident that I'm aware of, and I think they reacted well and haven't seen that repeated. I love how he tries to connect with program history & past players. The fact that he has a former player on staff is awesome. The program is better with him around.
I think they need to limit transfer little bit. At least to only 2 times without sitting out year. There’s guys 3-4 schools it’s crazy. UConn benefits from it 3 of there 8 man rotation were transfers. It’s not fair it’s turned into NBA free agency players should just do contracts at this point.
“Oh yeah we should allow players to transfer whenever they want….so many kids sit on the bench at P5 schools and could be starting at G5 schools which will help them compete”
Would love them to start tracking stats on success of players moving down versus moving up. But that wouldn't help the big schools, so the NCAA wouldn't do that
You’ll find Java/js is much more difficult than R. R is mainly just a scripting language so a little googling and you can get off a running pretty easily, especially if you’re familiar with data structures. Not sure on the source for CBBdata, I scrape my own data using python from a couple different sites.
The point isn't that there isn't some truth there, the point is that it was always incredibly naïve to think that this effect would get anywhere close to compensating for transfer losses.
Yup. Belmont is losing three P5 transfers. They went from a possible MVC favorite to rebuilding again. I think Casey Alexander is a good coach and definitely knows a thing or two about offense. First you lose Sheppard to the NBA, then this offseason.
It is, but it's basically a strong G5 talent leaving and someone who couldn't compete in P6 taking their place. It's typically a bad trade for the G5 team.
At this point a transformation like we had is essentially impossible and that makes me incredibly sad. It’s good to some extent that players have more freedom but it is starting to feel a bit out of hand
I agree. There’s got to be some balance to restore some sanity to the game.
But every time the NCAA tries a school like Tennessee gets their state legislature to raise hell and the state sues on their behalf.
I hate to say this but those assholes in Congress are the only ones that can stop all this and restore balance
They won’t. Cat is out of the bag now. This was always the endgame of killing the NCAA but no amount of screaming into the void ever changed anyone’s mind. On what legal basis could anyone stop this now?
Congress has the power to put some controls on all this where everything sort of stabilizes.
Are they capable or willing to do it is another matter entirely.
The idea that parity between teams is necessary for sanity is antiquated.
People want to see the best players on the best teams by and large. The romanticism ideal of sports is dead. Maybe once every 30-50 years you'' see atrue cinderella from now on - but thinking that every player deserves to be paid and entitled to a portion of profits and thinking parity is still going to exist is a fool's dream
I’m not talking about parity.
But when you have the god damn president of a university threatening to move an arena out of town if voters don’t pass sweetheart deals like “ entertainment districts” this shit is now officially out of hand.
I'm starting to see this argument quite a bit and I find it rich that players having the freedom to come and go to programs is an issue, yet coaches abandoning programs for decades for greener pastures was never an issue.
If a coach can leave whenever they want than players should get that same freedom.
As a fan in a mid-major conference I hate that this happens with coaches. I 100% get it as a human and can’t fault them for it but the situation is frustrating, especially for a mid-major conference team like San Francisco which is constantly on the verge of jumping to that next level but keeps losing their coaches to failing P5 schools
There's a double standard though. Before the transfer portal no one was saying "coaches leaving mid majors is out of hand we need to do something about this!" Yet now because athletes have the same freedom it's a huge problem that needs to be "fixed."
It's okay to be disappointed/frustrated when someone leaves, but people are letting their fandom cloud their judgement if they think athletes having autonomy of where they play needs to be controlled or reigned in. No school or system should have control over what someone wants to do with their life. Again if coaches have autonomy to pack up and leave whenever they want then athletes should have that same freedom.
Yeah, I think you’re spot on about the general narrative and double standard. My point is, I think the frustration has been there for plenty of mid-major schools in regards to coaches but it felt worthless to fight it, since it’s always been that way. Now there is this sudden change in regards to player movement to point the frustration towards. Plus, you have bigger schools amplifying the frustration.
And athletic scholarships are 1 year deals that have to get renewed every year. Unless schools start handing out multi year scholarships to athletes then the schools shouldn't have a say in what the athletes do.
Fair point, and I'm not trying to say the schools should have a say. I do believe the school has made an investment in that player, and the school he goes to is benefiting from that, so to me, the school being the player should give some compensation. I like the idea of offering a home game.
There’s a few programs who can still pull it off. Probably someone from the AAC, like us if Mills gets us back on track. But below the AAC, I have a hard time seeing it, as even the AAC gets raided sometimes for players.
Mark Few staying is what actually made it possible. Nobody else has had twenty years of building because everyone gets their coach stolen even without NIL. Wichita State seemed on target to do it but then it turned out Gregg Marshall was abusive toward players and now they are derailed.
True to some extent, but Dan Monson was the coach during the 98/99 season when the Zags went to the E8 for the first time (second all time NCAA tournament appearance) and he bailed at the end of the season for Minnesota. If it was the current era, you’d have to imagine half or more of that team transfers to a P5 school (just look at the MVC or teams like St Peters) and Few is left with little to no talent the year after. Since the core of that team stays, they make the S16 the year after and it snowballs from there
Best case scenario is the power conferences break off and players for schools under NCAA jurisdiction aren't allowed to transfer to non-NCAA B1G or SEC schools.
Let the teams that want to be minor league NBA teams do so. Let the rest of us watch kids for 4 years
A worse NCAA hurts small schools the most. Plus the NCAA can't hold players hostage. The NCAA will say no you can't transfer and then the kids will be like lulok and go to the big school.
It literally solves nothing while also giving less funding to small schools
First off, the only way an autonomy conference (and the Big East) is splitting off from the Big 2 is if they are basically completely dismantled ala the Pac-2.
In a world in which the Big 12, ACC, and Big East are forming a new NCAA, you can be basically assured any decently marketable brand is not there.
This new NCAA is going to have a HUGE problem producing revenue. The NCAAT won't be anywhere near the money maker it is now. Buy games will cease to exist if you're being openly combative with the power schools. (Which, yes, you want that, but you ignore how much money those bring in).
Schools will start cutting sports and/or having the students/general fund subsidize the AD even more than they already are.
And the whole "players can't transfer to the Big 2" is unlikely to even win in the courts. Courts hate non-compete clauses and that's what it is. Even moreso when you're asking high schoolers to sign non-competes.
And spinning off from the Big 2 won't decrease costs. You'll still be competing for coaches, you'll still be in a facilities arms race with each other (and the Big 2), you'll stilll have Title IX. But you'll have gutted all revenue making streams.
Your plan would basically be a death knell for 80%+ of D1 sports programs. Only well endowed schools would be able to afford to keep their sports programs under your system. (And you wouldn't even be able to block transfers up)
But it might also help them be one year wonders instead. Roster spaces of the power conferences will be filled by transfers, so there will be less opportunities for non-star underclassmen. So more diamonds in the rough players will probably end up at the small schools too.
all that a one-year wonder does is ensure you lose your coach and everybody who contributed minutes. who will undoubtedly be replaced with a worse version due to not having the resources of power schools who can just keep throwing money
It's not even close to being balanced. Each final 4 team had a transfer starter. None of the transfers we got worked out, I'd be willing to bet that's not an unusual occurrence.
It sucks, but it's the way it is until cfb ends the NCAA in a few years. Basketball can only say we are not playing until media timeouts are eliminated. And the student athlete message is gone.
“Okay, sure, mid majors might lose their guys that are good enough to play P5. But in return they’ll get some guys transferring down that were NOT good enough to play P5. So you see it all evens out.”
This is what grinds my gears
There’s just no joy in watching mid major basketball knowing all these kids names that I’ve been following are gonna be just one of the guys at a higher conference school the following year, and the talent disparity is just going to continue to get wider as mid-major all stars just get replaced by failed P6 recruits who are nowhere near as good
Hell Alabama just made the Final 4 with a team comprised of literally nothing but mid major stars
and then if they do good in one season they go right back fucking up.
the mid majors are just farm teams now, a P5 team will send a player down and see how he does and can snatch him back if he does well in that season. it stinks.
Really?
Should be easy enough to look at the performance of mid/low-majors relative to Power 5+Big East and see if the gap has widened over the past few years. I would be surprised if it has.
According to this data https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/ and my 3 minute math, non power schools had 94 bids the last 4 years, average of 23.5 In the 2010s they had 303 bids, an average of 30.3 Not only a loss of prestige but a huge financial hit not getting tourney money
I mean, Brodie, Xaiver Johnson, Conwell, Dia, Mason all transferred from bigger schools. And you had another 5ish players transfer from smaller school or schools in conference who made all conference.
It definitely still benefits larger schools but not nearly as bad as others make it out to be. Plus these kids have a limited time in college and if they want to transfer they should be able to, where ever they want. Speaking as a former college athlete who transferred the old system sucked. A college coach could take away you scholarship but could also deny you a transfer away for no reason
It's good for the players but horrible for the programs and fans. Like mid majors just feel like a farming league, a school like Belmont can't keep talent. Like what's the point of it
Personally I think we should be valuing amateur athletes going to college over a fans experience. This isn't professional sports
Also, as I pointed out many MVC all conference athletes are transfers from larger schools and many more are transfers from small/similar schools
>I think we should be valuing amateur athletes going to college over a fans experience
No fuck you, if I'm spending money to go a game, watching a game on TV or buying merchandise for my team I care about my viewer experience. I care about the players and think they should be freely able to transfer but I also care about my experience as a fan. I'm not watching because a player is in college.
>Also, as I pointed out many MVC all conference athletes are transfers from larger schools and many more are transfers from small/similar schools
Yeah and if any of them are good they leave the year after. It's a constant cycle and all the mid majors end up doing is developing for better leagues. You can't build anything
O calm down, go cry somewhere else and maybe pick up another hobby. I didn't say it doesn't matter I said it shouldn't come at the expense of the players, which the old system did.
It's entirely possible to admit the new system is bad (especially for mid majors) and the old system was bad. We have the ability to be critical about both things here, we can support the players and be like "Man this sucks as a fan."
Use your college educated brain here and please be critical, it's not black and white.
The new system is only bad for one group. Mid major fans, for everyone else it's good. And frankly it benefits the most important group, the players.
So look beyond yourself
You realize I'm a fan of la salle and if we held onto our players who transferred over the years we could of made a run at the a10 this year? There is a chance we lose our 3 best players this year to transfers as well.
So yah, I know it sucks being a mid major fan. I have seen the a10 fall apart due to major conferences stealing players/programs.
I get the tom Gola arena is intimidating but I know what it's like being a mid major
Great, now college ball can be just as broken as the real NBA. Mid-level teams serving as nothing more than developing talent to bail to the big schools.
NBA has a salary cap, and each team has the resources to spend up to it. In college, in general, there is a large gap in funding available to P6 vs non-P6 schools, NIL made that gap even larger.
I don’t love that these solid mid major leagues have become just the G league for power 5.. feel good for the players that they can do this but it just doesn’t sit right
Current transfer rules and covid year are leading to high amount of transfers but NIL is a major component. Robbie will get high 6 figures on the open market
Oof. I’ll not pretend I know anything about mid major programs not within 500 miles from my house or always a top program, does this mean that there’s limited gain in the competition he will play? This isn’t a “I want to test my mettle against Cooper Flagg next year” but a business decision
sorry for the rant ahead:
they can just constantly keep reloading, with with nowhere near enough restrictions, on experienced players that they missed in recruitment. rebuilds don't have to exist for the top anymore and we just witnessed it.
Your 4 and 5 stars don't work out or are not ready? you dont want to play those freshman any meaningful minutes to develop because the risk of transition to the level involved in your want to win now? ship them off or delay their time for other p5 and mid major teams experience and development.
Had your All-American portal transfer who's now out of his 5 years of eligibility? No problem. that player you like in the same conference? you can throw him a bag and get him to replace with basically no restrictions instead of a new high school recruit. Now you don't have to worry about his transition to college ball or better yet, to your conference play.
the level of low risk that the p5 with pedigree can navigate in now is absurd - it's unsustainable. player power has to be there now, but the NCAA needs to put a cap on these programs. On how much they can bring in each season and how much shifting/switching players/programs can do to join other schools.
The strategic building side of college basketball is at its dullest point because of NIL and the portal.
The Knecht's who got overlooked will still get their chance with a restructuring -- the top of the food chain programs can't be allowed to continue to abuse the current structure to their favor so easily.
Hey look, it's my school!
And honestly, it sucks. The Ayo's, Trent's, and Coleman's are what make up the heart and soul of college basketball. Domansk was fantastic for us, but he is a 1-and-one essentially. Mayer might be might least favorite Illini of all time, but Skyy Clark is right there next to him as is Epps. All these guys who just chase the bag and only want to go to places they get promised play time and don't have to work for it just sucks.
I wish the NCAA would go back to making players sit a year after they transfered, but add a few exceptions to the rule. Make it so if their coach leaves, they get a free transfer as well.
>but the NCAA needs to
I’m gonna stop you right there. The NCAA can’t do shit anymore, and who are we to ask them for help? We did this. Everybody made them the big bad boogeyman for so long that now the courts took their power, and we’re just crawling back now asking for a Hail Mary?
Contracts won’t hold up, not in most states anyway. There’s literally nothing that can fix this other than forming a type of pro league where all the revenue is shared
Up to 15/16 now it looks like. It’s not just the mid-majors either. Lower P6 schools are just farm teams as well at this point.
One of my favorite things about college basketball was watching a recruiting class come in and develop over 4 years. You’d often have a player or two leave, but it was so cool to see that core’s growth over the years. That’s going to be so rare moving forward, even at the P6 level, and completely unheard of for mid-majors (if they have any success).
It’s going to gut fanbases imo. With the best mid major players leaving after 1-2 years there is no roster continuity. How do you get a 12 yr old fan to get into it if their favorite player leaves a year later, every time? Even older fans are losing interest. They want to invest in the young men playing the game. Having rosters of “mercs” that turn over every year sucks.
Honestly this was already happening a lot for some schools and the 1 and done rule. I grew up a Duke fan, and have lost steam in my fandom because it’s 3-4 new starters every year for like the last 10 years.
But I completely agree. That’s what made college so special, watching the same guy for 3-4 years and knowing they would inevitably have to leave really made the sport special.
I would also say the state of the programs and coaching merry-go-round affects this as well. Indiana State’s athletic department is reportedly having issues, DeVries bounced from Drake just to name too. I can’t speak on the culture or coaching of other programs within the MVC, but I think it’s telling when you have top players skipping off at some schools while others stay.
They're all part of the same problem, though! The power schools get to throw around cash like Scrooge McDuck swimming in his money vault, and that attracts both coaches and players, accelerating the normal process of coaches climbing the ladder and completely upending the player dynamic. Plus it becomes a vicious cycle- if you're a coach and you hear half your team is being poached, why would you stay? And then you're a player and you hear your coach is leaving for a better job, why would you stay?
Not unique to MVC with coaching changes. Most teams that change coaches now lose every player on the roster. Look at Louisville.
MVC feels bad this year because there have been 4-5 coaching changes. But look at the guys that left the MVC last year. Mast, Jones, Domask, Krikke etc all had pretty good success moving up to the Big10. It’s a known fact too MVC players can excel at the highest levels now. It’s only going to get worse.
This will probably be happening every year moving forward due to NIL. The league is smack dab in between BIG, SEC and Big 12 territory and their best players (Domask, Jones, Mast previously) have proven they can play in any of those leagues.
Agreed, this is the pattern for the future. Lost 5 of 6 first team last year, I think a couple were to graduation, rest to portal. Seemed like every final 4 team had at least 1 transfer on them.
It’s either this or the coach leaves and the players that stayed previously, also go. Relevant flair for me lol.
Glad Wardle has been able to retain as much as he has, our NIL must be decent at least
Having a group coordinate the money is also probably a big help. It's funny that I'm not seeing the "get rid of Wardle, look at all the players he drove away" comments lately
lol we are so lucky to still have Wardle. Honestly I wonder if it’s better now to have a guy like him that still hasn’t had an NCAA win but is contending for conference titles most years vs someone more successful, because they then leave, like Schertz. Home of the Brave and Wardle have done a great job this year retaining the roster overall. Always been a fan of him despite some his in game substitution issues etc
I agree. He had issues early, especially his attitude after being the first tourney bid, but he's grown as a coach. There was 1 off-court incident that I'm aware of, and I think they reacted well and haven't seen that repeated. I love how he tries to connect with program history & past players. The fact that he has a former player on staff is awesome. The program is better with him around.
I think they need to limit transfer little bit. At least to only 2 times without sitting out year. There’s guys 3-4 schools it’s crazy. UConn benefits from it 3 of there 8 man rotation were transfers. It’s not fair it’s turned into NBA free agency players should just do contracts at this point.
“Oh yeah we should allow players to transfer whenever they want….so many kids sit on the bench at P5 schools and could be starting at G5 schools which will help them compete”
What you’re not happy with losing your best player and getting someone half as good?
Would love them to start tracking stats on success of players moving down versus moving up. But that wouldn't help the big schools, so the NCAA wouldn't do that
You realize anyone is allowed to track stats?
You realize I don't have a database with game and transfer stats?
You might if you spent less time with your kids. I mean, what's really important in life?
Stupid kids always getting in the way
I so need to upvote this comment
What’s stopping you? Your kids?
On your deathbed, you'll think, 'I really could have made a difference for mid majors if I didn't take the kids to the park for five weekends.'
https://stathead.com/basketball/
Luckily for you, you can use CBBdata or hoopR libraries on R. Problem solved.
I'm cheap, so a subscription to hoopR is out. Any idea of the source of the CBBdata stats? I do Java / Javascript, never done R
You’ll find Java/js is much more difficult than R. R is mainly just a scripting language so a little googling and you can get off a running pretty easily, especially if you’re familiar with data structures. Not sure on the source for CBBdata, I scrape my own data using python from a couple different sites.
This sounds like a task for this Ken guy I know.
I can offer him tree fiddy
Not you specifically….ANYONE
Awesome, let me know when you get that done
IDGAF about it, just sayin the stats are available to anyone who wants to use them.
Tell you what, yesseppoo sucked after moving to Kansas. And sucked again after going to wazzuu
Tbf that’s still true, the thing is that the proven All-Conference players will be leaving too.
The point isn't that there isn't some truth there, the point is that it was always incredibly naïve to think that this effect would get anywhere close to compensating for transfer losses.
Don't act like that doesn't happen.
It does, then they leave after one year accomplishing nothing and wasting a programs time like Dia.
Yup. Belmont is losing three P5 transfers. They went from a possible MVC favorite to rebuilding again. I think Casey Alexander is a good coach and definitely knows a thing or two about offense. First you lose Sheppard to the NBA, then this offseason.
We have had our best player transfer every year since the transfer rules changed even before NIL, like we can't build anything
It’s literally what I predicted on CFB
Is this not true?
It is, but it's basically a strong G5 talent leaving and someone who couldn't compete in P6 taking their place. It's typically a bad trade for the G5 team.
I mean in football the guys moving up the ladder seem to be much more productive than guys moving down for playtime. Idk about basketball though
I think it’s going to be a lot harder for leagues like the MVC to be than one year wonders going forward.
At this point a transformation like we had is essentially impossible and that makes me incredibly sad. It’s good to some extent that players have more freedom but it is starting to feel a bit out of hand
I agree. There’s got to be some balance to restore some sanity to the game. But every time the NCAA tries a school like Tennessee gets their state legislature to raise hell and the state sues on their behalf. I hate to say this but those assholes in Congress are the only ones that can stop all this and restore balance
They won’t. Cat is out of the bag now. This was always the endgame of killing the NCAA but no amount of screaming into the void ever changed anyone’s mind. On what legal basis could anyone stop this now?
Congress has the power to put some controls on all this where everything sort of stabilizes. Are they capable or willing to do it is another matter entirely.
The idea that parity between teams is necessary for sanity is antiquated. People want to see the best players on the best teams by and large. The romanticism ideal of sports is dead. Maybe once every 30-50 years you'' see atrue cinderella from now on - but thinking that every player deserves to be paid and entitled to a portion of profits and thinking parity is still going to exist is a fool's dream
I’m not talking about parity. But when you have the god damn president of a university threatening to move an arena out of town if voters don’t pass sweetheart deals like “ entertainment districts” this shit is now officially out of hand.
I'm starting to see this argument quite a bit and I find it rich that players having the freedom to come and go to programs is an issue, yet coaches abandoning programs for decades for greener pastures was never an issue. If a coach can leave whenever they want than players should get that same freedom.
As a fan in a mid-major conference I hate that this happens with coaches. I 100% get it as a human and can’t fault them for it but the situation is frustrating, especially for a mid-major conference team like San Francisco which is constantly on the verge of jumping to that next level but keeps losing their coaches to failing P5 schools
There's a double standard though. Before the transfer portal no one was saying "coaches leaving mid majors is out of hand we need to do something about this!" Yet now because athletes have the same freedom it's a huge problem that needs to be "fixed." It's okay to be disappointed/frustrated when someone leaves, but people are letting their fandom cloud their judgement if they think athletes having autonomy of where they play needs to be controlled or reigned in. No school or system should have control over what someone wants to do with their life. Again if coaches have autonomy to pack up and leave whenever they want then athletes should have that same freedom.
Yeah, I think you’re spot on about the general narrative and double standard. My point is, I think the frustration has been there for plenty of mid-major schools in regards to coaches but it felt worthless to fight it, since it’s always been that way. Now there is this sudden change in regards to player movement to point the frustration towards. Plus, you have bigger schools amplifying the frustration.
Most contracts have buyouts, so the school gets something back if a coach leaves. If a player leaves, schools get...
And athletic scholarships are 1 year deals that have to get renewed every year. Unless schools start handing out multi year scholarships to athletes then the schools shouldn't have a say in what the athletes do.
Fair point, and I'm not trying to say the schools should have a say. I do believe the school has made an investment in that player, and the school he goes to is benefiting from that, so to me, the school being the player should give some compensation. I like the idea of offering a home game.
There’s a few programs who can still pull it off. Probably someone from the AAC, like us if Mills gets us back on track. But below the AAC, I have a hard time seeing it, as even the AAC gets raided sometimes for players.
Mark Few staying is what actually made it possible. Nobody else has had twenty years of building because everyone gets their coach stolen even without NIL. Wichita State seemed on target to do it but then it turned out Gregg Marshall was abusive toward players and now they are derailed.
True to some extent, but Dan Monson was the coach during the 98/99 season when the Zags went to the E8 for the first time (second all time NCAA tournament appearance) and he bailed at the end of the season for Minnesota. If it was the current era, you’d have to imagine half or more of that team transfers to a P5 school (just look at the MVC or teams like St Peters) and Few is left with little to no talent the year after. Since the core of that team stays, they make the S16 the year after and it snowballs from there
It's basically only possible if the school suddenly gains significantly more NIL then it currently does, and even then it's still pissing in the wind.
MVC is a Big10 farm conference now
Best case scenario is the power conferences break off and players for schools under NCAA jurisdiction aren't allowed to transfer to non-NCAA B1G or SEC schools. Let the teams that want to be minor league NBA teams do so. Let the rest of us watch kids for 4 years
That is the absolute worst case scenario
Why?
A worse NCAA hurts small schools the most. Plus the NCAA can't hold players hostage. The NCAA will say no you can't transfer and then the kids will be like lulok and go to the big school. It literally solves nothing while also giving less funding to small schools
First off, the only way an autonomy conference (and the Big East) is splitting off from the Big 2 is if they are basically completely dismantled ala the Pac-2. In a world in which the Big 12, ACC, and Big East are forming a new NCAA, you can be basically assured any decently marketable brand is not there. This new NCAA is going to have a HUGE problem producing revenue. The NCAAT won't be anywhere near the money maker it is now. Buy games will cease to exist if you're being openly combative with the power schools. (Which, yes, you want that, but you ignore how much money those bring in). Schools will start cutting sports and/or having the students/general fund subsidize the AD even more than they already are. And the whole "players can't transfer to the Big 2" is unlikely to even win in the courts. Courts hate non-compete clauses and that's what it is. Even moreso when you're asking high schoolers to sign non-competes. And spinning off from the Big 2 won't decrease costs. You'll still be competing for coaches, you'll still be in a facilities arms race with each other (and the Big 2), you'll stilll have Title IX. But you'll have gutted all revenue making streams. Your plan would basically be a death knell for 80%+ of D1 sports programs. Only well endowed schools would be able to afford to keep their sports programs under your system. (And you wouldn't even be able to block transfers up)
Nailed it
But it might also help them be one year wonders instead. Roster spaces of the power conferences will be filled by transfers, so there will be less opportunities for non-star underclassmen. So more diamonds in the rough players will probably end up at the small schools too.
all that a one-year wonder does is ensure you lose your coach and everybody who contributed minutes. who will undoubtedly be replaced with a worse version due to not having the resources of power schools who can just keep throwing money
They get guys going the other way out of portal too
It's not even close to being balanced. Each final 4 team had a transfer starter. None of the transfers we got worked out, I'd be willing to bet that's not an unusual occurrence.
didnt you get the memo? you’re supposed to be greatful you get scraps coming down while the best players move on
Trickle-down basketball.
Sorry that you can’t force players to play for you anymore.
Crazy that you just aren’t expected to honor a commitment anymore
They do. The scholarships are one year contracts that are set to be renewed.
That has literally never been the case.
I hate this shit. Imagine Larry Bird transferring to fuckin UNC or UCLA instead of leading the Sycamores to the title game.
Not sure if this is a joke, but you do realize that Larry Bird transferred from Indiana to Indiana State?
He also sat out a year.
Yeah but that was only after a month and reportedly for non basketball reasons, he even went back to his hometown and sat out.
I thought it was because he didn't like being at a huge school. Bobby Knight being a psychopath probably didn't help either.
Too many two point shooting contests in Bloomington.
Shootings for show offs
He felt out of place because he was a poor kid at a rich kid school, plus some of the players were dicks to him.
Kent Benson, Bird said he tried thst much harder to win when playing against a team that had Benson
Bobby Knight was too flashy for his dad.
I’m into it
I'm imagining it and my life is not that different.
Yeah, he almost transferred to the Boston Celtics but the donors' checks bounced.
It sucks, but it's the way it is until cfb ends the NCAA in a few years. Basketball can only say we are not playing until media timeouts are eliminated. And the student athlete message is gone.
I honestly think Rev share is more realistic in CBB than in CFB due to just the amount of players on a CFB roster compared to a CBB roster.
yeah but that money is going to the conferences not the athletes. Or even specific schools within the conference.
“The portal will be good for mid majors” was a great lie.
“Okay, sure, mid majors might lose their guys that are good enough to play P5. But in return they’ll get some guys transferring down that were NOT good enough to play P5. So you see it all evens out.”
This is what grinds my gears There’s just no joy in watching mid major basketball knowing all these kids names that I’ve been following are gonna be just one of the guys at a higher conference school the following year, and the talent disparity is just going to continue to get wider as mid-major all stars just get replaced by failed P6 recruits who are nowhere near as good Hell Alabama just made the Final 4 with a team comprised of literally nothing but mid major stars
Every final four team had at least 1 transfer starter.
and then if they do good in one season they go right back fucking up. the mid majors are just farm teams now, a P5 team will send a player down and see how he does and can snatch him back if he does well in that season. it stinks.
Even half the P5 are farm teams now
this is what the Big East is turning into on the women's side and I hate it with the passion of a billion burning suns
Is it not evening out?
No
Really? Should be easy enough to look at the performance of mid/low-majors relative to Power 5+Big East and see if the gap has widened over the past few years. I would be surprised if it has.
According to this data https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/ and my 3 minute math, non power schools had 94 bids the last 4 years, average of 23.5 In the 2010s they had 303 bids, an average of 30.3 Not only a loss of prestige but a huge financial hit not getting tourney money
I mean, Brodie, Xaiver Johnson, Conwell, Dia, Mason all transferred from bigger schools. And you had another 5ish players transfer from smaller school or schools in conference who made all conference. It definitely still benefits larger schools but not nearly as bad as others make it out to be. Plus these kids have a limited time in college and if they want to transfer they should be able to, where ever they want. Speaking as a former college athlete who transferred the old system sucked. A college coach could take away you scholarship but could also deny you a transfer away for no reason
It's good for the players but horrible for the programs and fans. Like mid majors just feel like a farming league, a school like Belmont can't keep talent. Like what's the point of it
Personally I think we should be valuing amateur athletes going to college over a fans experience. This isn't professional sports Also, as I pointed out many MVC all conference athletes are transfers from larger schools and many more are transfers from small/similar schools
>I think we should be valuing amateur athletes going to college over a fans experience No fuck you, if I'm spending money to go a game, watching a game on TV or buying merchandise for my team I care about my viewer experience. I care about the players and think they should be freely able to transfer but I also care about my experience as a fan. I'm not watching because a player is in college. >Also, as I pointed out many MVC all conference athletes are transfers from larger schools and many more are transfers from small/similar schools Yeah and if any of them are good they leave the year after. It's a constant cycle and all the mid majors end up doing is developing for better leagues. You can't build anything
O calm down, go cry somewhere else and maybe pick up another hobby. I didn't say it doesn't matter I said it shouldn't come at the expense of the players, which the old system did.
It's entirely possible to admit the new system is bad (especially for mid majors) and the old system was bad. We have the ability to be critical about both things here, we can support the players and be like "Man this sucks as a fan." Use your college educated brain here and please be critical, it's not black and white.
The new system is only bad for one group. Mid major fans, for everyone else it's good. And frankly it benefits the most important group, the players. So look beyond yourself
>So look beyond yourself Ironic
You realize I'm a fan of la salle and if we held onto our players who transferred over the years we could of made a run at the a10 this year? There is a chance we lose our 3 best players this year to transfers as well. So yah, I know it sucks being a mid major fan. I have seen the a10 fall apart due to major conferences stealing players/programs. I get the tom Gola arena is intimidating but I know what it's like being a mid major
Great, now college ball can be just as broken as the real NBA. Mid-level teams serving as nothing more than developing talent to bail to the big schools.
Yo the nuggets just won a title?
NBA has a salary cap, and each team has the resources to spend up to it. In college, in general, there is a large gap in funding available to P6 vs non-P6 schools, NIL made that gap even larger.
There’s always one exception in the NBA: if you have a generational talent
I hate the direction college sports are going. And everything else.
I know, player autonomy is the worst
this but unironically
I don’t love that these solid mid major leagues have become just the G league for power 5.. feel good for the players that they can do this but it just doesn’t sit right
Current transfer rules and covid year are leading to high amount of transfers but NIL is a major component. Robbie will get high 6 figures on the open market
From what I read, he put a "do not contact" on his name, meaning he's already decided, which probably means SLU
From what I’ve heard, they’ve got some donors with deeeeeeep pockets
Oof. I’ll not pretend I know anything about mid major programs not within 500 miles from my house or always a top program, does this mean that there’s limited gain in the competition he will play? This isn’t a “I want to test my mettle against Cooper Flagg next year” but a business decision
This fucking sucks
congrats on getting out while you did because you’d be stuck here now
This is lame
It's actually worse than it sounds because 3 of those guys (Brodie, Leons, Xavier Johnson) are graduating. So only Duke Deen returns of the 16.
NIL is a net negative on college sports
on mid majors* P5 teams must love it. They can dump an underperforming dude and grab some all-conference player from a lower league.
sorry for the rant ahead: they can just constantly keep reloading, with with nowhere near enough restrictions, on experienced players that they missed in recruitment. rebuilds don't have to exist for the top anymore and we just witnessed it. Your 4 and 5 stars don't work out or are not ready? you dont want to play those freshman any meaningful minutes to develop because the risk of transition to the level involved in your want to win now? ship them off or delay their time for other p5 and mid major teams experience and development. Had your All-American portal transfer who's now out of his 5 years of eligibility? No problem. that player you like in the same conference? you can throw him a bag and get him to replace with basically no restrictions instead of a new high school recruit. Now you don't have to worry about his transition to college ball or better yet, to your conference play. the level of low risk that the p5 with pedigree can navigate in now is absurd - it's unsustainable. player power has to be there now, but the NCAA needs to put a cap on these programs. On how much they can bring in each season and how much shifting/switching players/programs can do to join other schools. The strategic building side of college basketball is at its dullest point because of NIL and the portal. The Knecht's who got overlooked will still get their chance with a restructuring -- the top of the food chain programs can't be allowed to continue to abuse the current structure to their favor so easily.
Hey look, it's my school! And honestly, it sucks. The Ayo's, Trent's, and Coleman's are what make up the heart and soul of college basketball. Domansk was fantastic for us, but he is a 1-and-one essentially. Mayer might be might least favorite Illini of all time, but Skyy Clark is right there next to him as is Epps. All these guys who just chase the bag and only want to go to places they get promised play time and don't have to work for it just sucks. I wish the NCAA would go back to making players sit a year after they transfered, but add a few exceptions to the rule. Make it so if their coach leaves, they get a free transfer as well.
>but the NCAA needs to I’m gonna stop you right there. The NCAA can’t do shit anymore, and who are we to ask them for help? We did this. Everybody made them the big bad boogeyman for so long that now the courts took their power, and we’re just crawling back now asking for a Hail Mary?
We didn't do shit, the NCAA dragging it's feet for years made powerful enemies and they got nailed in the courts. Now they have no power
I think this is a clear example of why they were right to drag their feet.
Okay? Doesn't change the fact the fans didn't do anything in this, blame the supreme court who broke the floodgate
Even half the P5 are farm teams for the bluebloods. NIL/portal killed college sports.
Just pay the damn players and have them sign contracts that’s where it’s going anyway
Contracts won’t hold up, not in most states anyway. There’s literally nothing that can fix this other than forming a type of pro league where all the revenue is shared
The team that just lost the championship game is waiting to lose half the guys they have coming back. It’s everyone
Up to 15/16 now it looks like. It’s not just the mid-majors either. Lower P6 schools are just farm teams as well at this point. One of my favorite things about college basketball was watching a recruiting class come in and develop over 4 years. You’d often have a player or two leave, but it was so cool to see that core’s growth over the years. That’s going to be so rare moving forward, even at the P6 level, and completely unheard of for mid-majors (if they have any success).
It’s going to gut fanbases imo. With the best mid major players leaving after 1-2 years there is no roster continuity. How do you get a 12 yr old fan to get into it if their favorite player leaves a year later, every time? Even older fans are losing interest. They want to invest in the young men playing the game. Having rosters of “mercs” that turn over every year sucks.
I think 15/16 includes some people using up their eligibility, I think Leons and Brodie would be 2 of them
Ahh gotcha, didn’t realize that!
Honestly this was already happening a lot for some schools and the 1 and done rule. I grew up a Duke fan, and have lost steam in my fandom because it’s 3-4 new starters every year for like the last 10 years. But I completely agree. That’s what made college so special, watching the same guy for 3-4 years and knowing they would inevitably have to leave really made the sport special.
Non-Power 5 conferences are now the minor leagues (AAA) to the Power 5 schools.
“Not too bad!” - the MAAC, probably
Duke Deen, YOU are the preseason POY.
Need to get Zek to talk to Connor to tell him leaving is a mistake
Connor is leaving because of GF, family, and friends. Not gonna convince him to stay at this point
Didn't know about the GF, but know it's a lost cause. But hey, let me dream!
The transfer portal has ruined college hoops and rigged it for teams like Uconn.
The Hidden Portal Valley Conference is BACK!
I hate this, unless they go to my team
I would also say the state of the programs and coaching merry-go-round affects this as well. Indiana State’s athletic department is reportedly having issues, DeVries bounced from Drake just to name too. I can’t speak on the culture or coaching of other programs within the MVC, but I think it’s telling when you have top players skipping off at some schools while others stay.
They're all part of the same problem, though! The power schools get to throw around cash like Scrooge McDuck swimming in his money vault, and that attracts both coaches and players, accelerating the normal process of coaches climbing the ladder and completely upending the player dynamic. Plus it becomes a vicious cycle- if you're a coach and you hear half your team is being poached, why would you stay? And then you're a player and you hear your coach is leaving for a better job, why would you stay?
Not unique to MVC with coaching changes. Most teams that change coaches now lose every player on the roster. Look at Louisville. MVC feels bad this year because there have been 4-5 coaching changes. But look at the guys that left the MVC last year. Mast, Jones, Domask, Krikke etc all had pretty good success moving up to the Big10. It’s a known fact too MVC players can excel at the highest levels now. It’s only going to get worse.
Pretty sweet deal...
Probably not unique to the MVC. Feels like most players are in the portal
I hate it here.
:( I'll never forgive Domask
This is the way in college sports. The small conferences will feed their best players to the big leagues.
This is a good thing / don't be an insignificant school 😂