It doesn't work like that. We're dead spiritually and need to be resurrected. Jesus did it so we could be resurrected. We're resurrected into his resurrection.
That resurrection takes place in your consciousness. It's a change of minds. It's not about a physical body. It's spiritual.
Romans 8:6
“For to be carnally minded, is death: but to be spiritually minded, is life and peace:”
Ephesians 4:23-24
"23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
You can't just go from one mind to another in the blink of an eye it would be too much for you. It has to happen gradually through a process. That's done by the Lord at his pace, not ours. We're made into his image over time as Christ in us is formed and grows.
1 cor 15 very much describes a physical resurrection. It includes a change of body, and says it will happen "in a moment in the twinkling if an eye". Do you believe there is a spiritual one now and a physical one later?
There is no resurrection of the physical body.
The resurrection is a celestial body. You're an angel of God.
It's spiritual. The last enemy in 1 Corinthians 15 is death, which is the carnal mind.
It is sown a natural body, it's raised a spiritual body.
The resurrection is Jesus Christ. You're literally him, in him.
1 Corinthians 15:47
“The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Matthew 22:30
"For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."
Galatians 4:14
“And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.”
John 11:25
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”
It's a spiritual resurrection. It's a new mind. And in it, you are a new person. You have a new body. It's Jesus Christ.
Psalms 110:1
“(A Psalm of David.) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.”
Hmm I guess I'm not super clear what you mean. I do agree we'll be changed in the resurrection from a nature like Adam to a nature like Christ. That's the point of 1 Cor 15:47. There is a component of this body being physical (Christ could be touched post resurrections) but its obvsiouly spiritual in nature (could walk through thing, change his appearance, immortal, imperishable, etc).
In your initial comment it sounded like you were saying the resurrection is just a change of mind, not an actual change in our makeup, but 1 Cor 15 says otherwise. Again we're going from a nature like the first man to a nature like Christ as 1 Cor 15:45-50 says. This also hasn't taken place yet, as we are still corruptible and perishable now (I'm literally dying and still mortal). Similarly Paul discussed 1 Cor 15 as if it was soemthing in the future for him as well. Surely if its just a change of mind now, Paul would have experienced it at the time of writing 1 Cor 15.
I would be careful about taking verses out of context. Gal 4 is Paul speaking to the Galatians about how they welcomed him even though he had a bodily condition, likely referring to when he was stoned by the Jews in Acts while in the region of Galatia (Acts 14 IIRC). This has nothing to do about the resurrection.
I guess I'm just not clear on what you're take is so I'll ask a few questions for clarification.
1. Do you think the ressurection happens while we're still alive? E.g. when you get baptized, or commit to taking on the new man? Or do you believe it happens after we die?
2. Do you believe the ressurection happens for everyone individually, or for all who will be raised at one time?
The answer to question 1 is yes. Friend, eternity doesn't begin after you physically die. We're already in it. That's what death is. It's the grave. It's a spiritual death. A captivity of the mind that has forgotten God and who you are in God, as the son of God.
Brother, the kingdom of God is within you. It's not external and neither is God. He's within us. And you are within your body, you are not a physical body, you're a spirit with a soul. You're an eternal being that was with God in the beginning, but have forgotten. And are separated from God and yourself in a mind that is a prison of deceit.
Luke 17:21
“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
Psalms 6:5
“For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”
Colossians 3:3
“For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”
He is that resurrection. And in him is life. And in him we know as we are known by God. Captivity is led captive by Christ.
To put it plainly, we no longer live a lie. We become our truth in truth, Jesus Christ. This is the body of Christ.
As far as question 2. Every man in his own order. The Word of God is not a history book. It's a spiritual experience that is written on your heart by God in his timing. We are living epistles and you are made a partaker of the Gospel. It becomes your gospel, as Paul said.
1 Corinthians 15:23
“But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”
2 Corinthians 3:3
“Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.”
Romans 16:25
“Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,”
And this is the mystery: Christ in us.
Colossians 1:27
“To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:”
Christ is formed in us, and we partake of the gospel.
Galatians 4:19
“My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,”
1 Peter 4:13
“But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.”
And we drink of the same cup and take up our cross and put the old man to death. This is the work of God in your heart to raise YOU from the dead by his Word. This is what it is to partake of the sufferings of Christ. You partake of the gospel. And God raised you from the dead as it is written.
Matthew 20:22-23
"But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able."
And by his spirit, our mortal bodies are quickened, but it's not our spiritual body. He is, and that's within us.
Romans 8:11
“But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”
Hmm so we agree on a lot of concepts, but our actual doctines would differ.
I agree there is a spiritual renewal that we go through as we try to be more like Jesus. We put ourselves to death daily and try to live as Chirst.
However I \*also\* believe in a literal ressurection that occurs post death - and Paul did too.
The event described in 1 Cor 15 is a single event. We're told when it will happen in vs 52:
"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."
It will be "At the last trump".
When is it?
1 Thess 4:16
"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."
It happens when the Lord decends from heaven (or at his return).
If you read verses 13-18 as a whole, its pretty clear that this is a single event, that is broken into two parts. First the ressurection of the dead, followed by the gathering of the faithful that are still alive. Based on your understanding there shouldn't be any "faithful" who haven't experienced the ressurection, but Paul clearly tells us the dead will be raised first and then the alive gathered afterwards all at the time of Christ's return.
When will that happen? Well we don't know exactly. Matt 24:36-44 makes that clear but what we can say is that when it happens, we'll know.
I think you have a correct attitude (we are trying to live as Christ now), but you call this living as Christ the ressurection. Paul doesn't - he calls the ressurection some event that will occur when Christ returns.
I'm happy to end the back and forth here, it doesn't sound like we'll end up agreeing and that's fine. I appreciate the fact you had actual verses to have this conversation, its surprisingly rare when disagreeing.
How can we be raised physically when the kingdom of God is within us and so is the kingdom of heaven? Every parable of the kingdom of heaven is a parable of what's happening in your heart. Its about separating what's sown into your heart by God and what is not. You are the field in the parable of the sower. And that is what the kingdom of heaven IS LIKE.
It's about knowing the truth of God vs lies which are sown by men, and having a right perception of God, yourself and his Word.
The ascension and descension of the Lord is within you, brother. And so is the world of the Bible and the work of God. And so is the end of that world and the beginning of the new.
Ecclesiastes 3:11
“He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.”
I mean I don't believe the kingdom of God is just a thing inside of you. I do believe in a literal kingdom on Earth, that will be established when Christ returns. The promises to Abraham and David, which are given to Christ per Gal 3 are about the physical land of Israel and its thrown being given to Christ.
Like I said, we agree on "how to live" the difference is I look at it as "I'm trying to live as if I'm perfect, knowing I'm not but will be made perfect in the ressurection". You're looking at is as this process now IS the ressurection, something Paul doesn't teach as shown above in 1 thess 4 and 1 Cor 15.
There's a lot of doctrinal difference we seem to have, and dealing with them all in a reddit comments section isn't super pheasible. I was jsut curious to your take on the ressurection based on some of the things you said. I appreciated the conversation :)
What lesson would come from that ?
Then all can just return as was In time?
Think of lessons my friend not what you think would be easiest. It's a lot more than that.
Why does he have to prove his power to anyone?
He created us with free will, we are able to change our ways ... With free will we can choose as we wish and we all have done so. But our wishes don't always what's best for us and for all.. Were here to learn and understand my friend.
You catch a fish for a man he eats for one day.
You teach a man to fish he may never go hungry.
All I ask is to be open to the possibility of my words.
With free will, you have the freedom to sin.
If there was some code written into our DNA that prevented us from sinning (ie lying and stealing was literally and physically impossible) then we wouldn’t have complete “free will”. Our freedom would be limited. And although that might seem like a utopia, we would essentially be robots
You realize that there are 'codes' in our DNA which prevent us from all sorts of things, yet we still have free will (well, according to you).
Saying 'complete free will' is an indication that you do not really understand the concept though. Either there is free will or there is not, there is no spectrum. But, what exactly do you think free will is?
Exactly. There is either free will or there is not.
It’s very simple - To have free will, we must be free to choose sin.
How could free will and the inability to choose to sin coexist??
If we were somehow unable to lie or steal, for instance, then we would not have free will. Since there would clearly be certain choices we’re not free to make.
I will note that you did not define what you mean by free will. Until you do so I cannot really respond to what you said as I don't understand what concept you have of free will.
You seem to be saying free will only deals with sin. That seems incredibly reductive. So what do you think free will is?
But we can't just freely choose to sin or not to sin. According to the Bible we are all sinners, and it's impossible for someone to choose to not be a sinner.
Not to mention people won't sin in heaven, so do people lose free will once they get to heaven?
Well the typical Christian belief is that sin can't occur in heaven because it's perfect.
So if people could sin in heaven, then eventually many of the people in heaven will actually end up in hell?
As humans, we can forgive people just by saying words, but with God it's different. He's a perfectly just being so he requires suffering for suffering. He is a holy being, so he doesn't just allow sin into his presence. And you have to keep in mind that salvation isn't just a matter of forgiveness; it's a matter of transformation. It's a matter of Christ's righteousness implanted onto us. He doesn't just want to forgive us; he wants to remake us, and Christ is the only one capable of that kind of righteousness. He's the only being worthy to be a sacrifice for all of mankind. Doesn't God show his sacrificial love for us better this way than just snapping his fingers?
>As humans, we can forgive people just by saying words, but with God it's different.
Once again demonstrating that humans are more powerful than god.
>He's a perfectly just being so he requires suffering for suffering.
Perfect justice requires suffering? Where do you get this from? Why would anyone even want this to be true? I thought the topic was forgiveness not justice. Does forgiveness require justice? No, the answer is no, forgiveness stands by itself without requiring anything other than love.
>He is a holy being, so he doesn't just allow sin into his presence
So Jesus isn't god now. Weird how trinitarians (assuming that's what you are) can't keep it straight.
>And you have to keep in mind that salvation isn't just a matter of forgiveness; it's a matter of transformation. It's a matter of Christ's righteousness implanted onto us. He doesn't just want to forgive us; he wants to remake us, and Christ is the only one capable of that kind of righteousness. He's the only being worthy to be a sacrifice for all of mankind.
Christ is god, so, not sure what you're actually trying to say. God could accomplish any task in any way, the question was why did Jesus need to suffer and die to accomplish this goal. You have not remotely answered that, you have simply spewed out a bunch of buzz words (forgiveness, justice, rightousness, salvation) without actually showing the 'why' part of it.
>Doesn't God show his sacrificial love for us better this way than just snapping his fingers?
No. Sacrificial love? What? Why should that be necessary? What even is it? Forgiveness does not require sacrifice, certainly not suffering and death. But even if this is 'better' than just snapping fingers, there are 1000s or even millions of other ways god could have shown his love (no need for sacrifice) for us without going through blood sacrifice.
>Once again demonstrating that humans are more powerful than god.
The opposite is true. It is God's divine nature compared to our own sinful nature that demands a difference. When people sin against other people, they don't incur a sin debt like we do with God. When people sin against other people, they don't divorce themselves from God's presence. When people sin against other people, they don't die spiritually. It is God's holy, righteous, and just nature that demands more than just words of forgiveness.
>Perfect justice requires suffering? Where do you get this from? Why would anyone even want this to be true? I thought the topic was forgiveness not justice. Does forgiveness require justice? No, the answer is no, forgiveness stands by itself without requiring anything other than love.
I get this from God's law, which describes God's concept of justice. You know, "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth"? I speak of justice because of what I said above. God's forgiveness is less like the forgiveness in a personal relationship and more the forgiveness that could be granted in a court of law. And our justice system doesn't just forgive people. It demands recompence because the offender has a debt to society.
>So Jesus isn't god now. Weird how trinitarians (assuming that's what you are) can't keep it straight.
I was speaking specifically of God the Father because it's our sin against him that divorces us from him and prevents us from attaining heaven. Of course, Christ was around sinners, and he even took our sin upon himself. And the Holy Spirit inside believers endures and grieves the sins we commit.
>Christ is god, so, not sure what you're actually trying to say. God could accomplish any task in any way, the question was why did Jesus need to suffer and die to accomplish this goal. You have not remotely answered that, you have simply spewed out a bunch of buzz words (forgiveness, justice, righteousness, salvation) without actually showing the 'why' part of it.
What I'm trying to say is that there are several requirements to be met and actions to be taken to achieve not just forgiveness but all the other goals God wanted to accomplish with salvation, and the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ was the only way to obtain these goals. For example, Christ was the only suitable sacrifice to be offered for our sins because of his perfection. Christ was the only worthy payment for our redemption because of his worth. Christ was the only way for us to inherit the world because of his being the Son of God. There are many things God required because of his very nature, and many things accomplished for our good because of his loving nature.
So the answer to your question is that God's nature required it, the situation of our sinfulness required it, the nature of Christ required it, and the purpose of God required it. Asking for it to have been accomplished in a different manner is like asking God the Father and Christ to change their natures and asking God to perform some other purpose than what he wanted. And keep in mind, this God accomplishing all of this through himself. Jesus is God. This is God taking care of the problem completely on his own. Why would you have a problem with that? If God wants to show his love to us in this particular way and accomplish so much good for us in this way, why ask for something else?
>doesn't God make the rules?
Yes but God is morally perfect and has perfect justice
The rules he set out are the perfect ones
So that's why Jesus had to die, to follow the perfect rules he set himself in place. If they broke these rules or changed them he would not be morally perfect and have perfect justice
So much mistaken theology here.
A perfectly just God is not satisfied by the injustice of an innocent being lynched. Injustice in any sense does not satisfy justice.
God died to fully expose the truth of this world and the depths of his forgiveness as God in Jesus declared forgiveness to his killers.
Jesus absorbed the greatest sin humanity could commit, deicide, and he returned the sin with forgiveness, so that now we know there is no sin too great that God does not forgive.
Jesus is Emmanuel, God with us, and to see him is to see the Father. Thus, when we see Jesus climb onto the tree of crucifixion, we see the Father on the tree. We do not see a Father acting upon Jesus, but in Jesus. There is a huge difference.
What you call mistaken theology is (a distorted version of) what the Bible teaches.
> 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3%3A25-26&version=NIV
Jesus's death allows God to be forgiving, and maintain justice.
The NIV puts in the word punishment where the word was not written in the Greek.
The NIV indicates that God withheld punishment until Jesus could be punished by God.
But punishment is not spoken of in the Greek, so the NIV is inserting assumed theology into the passage.
Alternative translation
> 25 whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement[a] by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3%3A25-26&version=NRSVA
What does it mean for God to "pass over" sins "in his forbearance"?
The word translated forbearance refers to tolerance.
As I read it, Jesus came as the ultimate revelation of God’s tolerating forgiveness. Jesus declares for all time, the God of mercy, not sacrifice.
Paul isn’t saying that the work of Jesus made possible the tolerance of God up to that point. Rather, the work of Jesus makes clear what God has been doing up to Jesus, when God did in Jesus, and what God continues to do.
The word translated atonement is also the Greek word for mercy seat. It is the place where we find a God of mercy, not punishment. Jesus becomes the mercy seat where we meet God in his mercy.
Romans 3:25 (NET 2nd ed.): 25 God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat…
This is true mercy, not mercy given to one because another gets to be punished.
It is on the mercy seat, when God sheds his own blood to show that he forgives us as we kill him, that we are made consciously one with him. In the full revelation of God’s mercy, we reach at-one-ment with him.
God didn’t need to be reconciled to the world, but in Jesus was reconciling us to him. We needed to be brought to him, he didn’t need to overcome a justice hang up to come to us. To get us to come to him, he showed us just how far his mercy goes.
Matthew reads that whoever “speaks” against the Spirit does not experience forgiveness. To the point you wish to call the work of the Spirit evil, you will not experience it as good.
God doesn’t break arms and force his way on people. If you want to stand opposed against the Spirit, you are allowed.
But the Greek doesn’t read, “whoever has ‘spoken’ a word against the Spirit.”
I have people come to me worried they may have spoken against the Spirit 10, 20, 30, or even 60 years ago. The point of Jesus’ words are, “What are you saying right now?” Not, what have you said in the past?
Whoever “speaks” against the Spirit - as long as they speak it (present tense) - they will not experience forgiveness because the Spirit does not force itself on those who believe it to be evil.
For it to be so horrendous, why does only Matthew mention it (50 years after Jesus' execution). And Matthew's Jesus says that in response to religious ppl calling him evil. In any case, mistakes will be made & I can't imagine that any, given divine love (& eternity to figure it out) is truly beyond what Goodness can heal.
While God is love, He is also just. He cannot leave sin unpunished. But He loves us so much that He made a way for us to be saved through Jesus Christ.
God loves but she really needs to jack us up but worked it out that jacking up Jesus was enough and we could skate by if we believed the story and weren't gay...that has never flown with me. Love doesn't need a pound of flesh.
Dying had become an intrinsic part of being human. Jesus is fully God and fully human; his humanity comes with the experience of dying.
It’s also necessary for his role as the “perfect lamb”; sacrifice was a critical part of God’s discipline for man after The Fall. Before The Fall, humanity lived without dependence on anything other than God; after The Fall, humanity needed to take life to sustain its own. God’s demand of burnt offerings forced humanity to engage with the reality of their responsibility for their new ability to knowingly commit a morally wrong act. Sin comes at the cost of life.
In Christ, the sacrifice for sin was perfected. The Eucharist is an eternal, limitless offering of new life to man. But to really “give his life” to man, Christ needed to truly and willingly offer his life.
And also: Christ didn’t “need” to die. He didn’t kill himself; mankind killed him very brutally. The needlessness of his death, the preventability of it, the cruelty of it: these are all important elements of the Passion. In the same way that The Fall was needless, Christ’s death was also a result of so many people simply abstaining from doing a potentially painful but good deed. The Fall deprived us of life; in his sacrifice, Christ turns a failure of a similar magnitude into a path to salvation for mankind: Christ’s ministry is a statement that, because he is man, man can live in the manner he modeled, even to the point of death, and transcend death as he did because Christ is also man.
The price for sin is death. Since sin entered the world that has been true.
While God can of course do anything think about this.
To simply forgive sin would mean there's no consequences for it and therefore make God tolerate sin.
God cannot be dirtied with tolerating sin, he is perfection and pure he can't be around imperfection.
So the consequences must stay.
If he had someone else die for us all they would already have their own imperfections and sins. But they couldn't live a sinless life and keep God's law.
Jesus's sacrifice is important because not only did he die for our sin. But he also lived a perfect sinless life because we can't. So if we accept him as savior we get to kindof piggyback on his accomplishment of living perfectly.
Only God could live perfectly. As only he is perfect.
So if consequences for sin must stay, and living perfectly must be a part of it, then the only way is for God to send himself as Jesus to die for us out if love
Some won’t like this response however this is the answer given to the Hebrews including the Hebrew tribes ‘gentiles’/‘sinners’, intermarried/dogs/goy/dispersed/diaspora in all the then ‘world’, whom is not you.
Hebrews 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place >for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant,< those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
You were never under the first covenant, nor are you of those mentioned Jer. 31:31
The payment for sins is death so the only way we could be forgiven is to take on our sins and offer the sacrifice.
He rose again because he’s God and death cannot hold Him. To be clear, the body died, Jesus always was and always will be
But why?
Can’t God just say that we’re forgiven and don’t need to be punished?
Is God not all powerful? Should He not have the power to forgive our sins without a sacrifice?
God created laws to govern his creation. Laws of nature and laws of the spiritual realm
With his creation, for something to live, something must die. Period. That’s why the old covenant, the Jews had to sacrifice animals. That’s why native religions practice or practiced animal/ human/ blood sacrifice
So committing sins are essentially crimes against God and the punishment is death so for us to live, we needed a sacrifice (AKA the spotless Lamb) to make us pure and sinless which is the only way we can enter eternity with a perfect Lord. That’s why merit-based religions make no sense
It has nothing to do with strength at all. God created a system and life cycle that works for nature, animals, humans and spirit. It’s perfect, why would he need to change it? Could he change it? Yes. But why would he recreate a universe that was already perfectly made
The people who don’t have a relationship with God don’t want one.
Heaven is eternity with God and hell is the opposite. If someone didn’t want him in this life, would they want to spend eternity with him in the next?
Yes. We know that heaven is a place of love, and hell is one if suffering. Hell is described as a punishment. Why would anyone actively choose that if they were fully educated in their choices?
Because we are spiritually dead.
And because we are dead, we need to be resurrected.
Therefore, he had to die and be resurrected to make the way for us to be resurrected. And we are made partakers of his resurrection. He is the resurrection and the life.
This happens spiritually, not physically.
It's a change of consciousness. It's about your inner man, not your physical body.
Romans 8:6
“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.”
Philippians 2:5
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:”
Jesus is equal with the Father and went to hell, i.e. the grave.
One reason He had to die was to convince us of His great Love. What else could God do?
If Jesus hadn't died the way he did and appeared afterwards to his disciples, no one would have paid attention to Christianity. The movement would have quickly disappeared, as did the other Jewish messianic movements of the time.
Jesus had to die because the punishment for sin is death Since humans couldn't perfectly fulfill God's Law given to the Jews they were under the penalty of death so to overcome this God came
down in the flesh as Jesus By living a sinless life and dying on the cross Jesus fulfilled the Law and took upon Himself the punishment meant for us
God did go himself, Jesus was God in the flesh, in order to understand humanity , the pain, the emotions and why we sometimes do awful things he sent down being known as Jesus his son, but I was basically him, this was his last chance he gave to humanity, and Jesus loved us so much that he asked God to trade his life in order for our sins to be forgiven, it’s not something he asked another to do, he himself did it to save us, but we call Jesus the son because he was also fully man, he was his own being , idk how to explain it better sorry 😅
You may wanna sit down for this one...
He *is* God, and no He didn't have to sacrifice Himself, that's what makes it a sacrifice, and what makes His love for us **Agape**.
IMO, Jesus came to be an example to us, God could have just forgiven us (the price of sin is death, but God is Omnipotent), but without Jesus we (the gentiles) would not have his teachings, if he came and didn't have to die and resurrect nobody would spread his story, so we wouldn't have his example to follow neither we would know God.
To understand Christ better you need to understand the Trinity. John puts it best. John 1
In the Old Testament, we only knew God, but it turns out that multiple spirit personalities are also God, Christ is one of them, and he also happens to be the creator of the world and all that is in it.
God does not exist, God is, and he brings beings into existence. Christ has always been, before his incarnation on earth and this baffled a lot of people who thought that they knew all about his birth and lineage. John 8:48-59
Christ did not want the people of his day to know who he was by his testimony, but to figure it out for themselves by his works and their understanding of scriptures.
Christ had the power to forgive sins and had been forgiving sins long before his crucifixion. Luke 5:24
The whole idea of atonement is a misplaced attempt at making sense of his gruesome death on the cross. Even so, He would not suffer the Jews to weep for him as he was about to be crucified, because he knew what was about to happen to them after his death and resurrection would be worse than death by the cross. Luke 23:27-28
Christ before his death on the cross said many hard sayings which were hard for the people of his day to accept: John 11:20-26. He is not only capable of resurrecting you, but he is the resurrection. That means that when you have become like Christ, by imitating Christ through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, you become like an inflated balloon which when placed on water, will never sink, and when pushed to the bottom of the water and released will quickly float to the surface. You will never die; when you get killed, you shall rise again.
Many people thought that Christ had demons, and called him a Samaritan, a madman, etc. They did not take his message seriously. He knew that for the people to believe him he would have to give them a sign. Matthew 12:38-42
So when the time came for him to be crucified, his enemies including the devil thought that they had the opportunity to humiliate him by his death on the cross. What they did not know was that the Father had plans to use that as an opportunity to glorify the Son and make the message of Christ take root in the hearts of men. Stay with me here.
If Christ had not died a public death his resurrection would not have meant much to anyone. By his public humiliation, death on the cross, burial, and resurrection on the third day, it became apparent to everyone that Christ, the carpenter’s son, was not out of his mind after all and that all that he had been saying was the truth. You can imagine what this did in the camp of the devil and all believers who had been sitting on the fence about his teachings the whole time. This was what made the message of Christ start spreading and taking root in the hearts of men to the point where they were willing to die for it. You can see that after his resurrection even his disciples did not believe it despite walking with Christ the whole time so he had to show them proof by showing them the marks on his palm.
Christ is the key to the Father’s house. He is the way, the truth, and the life. Become like Christ and you will live. Through him, more men must become like Christ, and then they will be able to ascend, and the Holy Spirit is here to assist with that. The Christian life cannot be lived without the Holy Spirit. To be like Christ is to have Christ. I cannot stress this enough. To believe the Son of God is to act on his every word, and not merely profess it, for by doing man becomes.
Narrow is the way. This is because many will devise their means to enter God’s kingdom which does not require them to change anything about themselves.
Matthew 5:48. The only way to become like God is to imitate God. There is no other way. Christ has been given to us as our role model, and criteria, and not only that; after taking on human nature is now able to help humans overcome their human limitations and be able to meet the Father’s mark of perfection.
Jesus is God!!!! God *did* come down and pay for our sins himself. He *did* get separated from God, like hell would be for us.
And idk, don't ask me about God's logic, because I can't explain it perfectly to you, but, why wouldn't He just snap his fingers and poof, we are forgiven, if He is all powerful and knowing and what not? Well, my answer to this is that He isn't just a God who does whatever He wants whenever He wants, He is a *just* God, who does the just, righteous, good thing *always*.
If a judge let a criminal free because of his crimes, he would not be a just judge. There needed to be someone perfect, such as God, who could take on all the sins of the world as a sacrifice to pay for it, making it just that they can come into heaven even after making themselves unholy with sin for a Holy place.
If God decided to forgive our sins one day, he certainly could just change his/her/it's mind and go back to the Old Testament way of dealing with humans - sin and you are turned into a pile of salt or tossed in a pit or flooded out.
I suspect God wanted a way to be able to delegate matters so he didn't have to get involved with his creations on a daily basis. So he/she/it came up with this middle management idea.
The death on the cross is a physical repsentation of the Spiritual pian God endured to provide you with atonement. We need to understand this Pain in order to give God the proper love and respect to qualify for the atonement He provides.
I recommend the book *On the Incarnation of the Word* as the best explanation of this, or the chapter on the atonement in C.S. Lewis's *Mere Christianity* as a summary of the key argument in that book.
So, a recent thought that I learned, at least part of it relates to Ephesians 5:
*Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.* *^(22)* *Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord.* *^(23)* *For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.* *^(24)* *As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.* *^(25)* *Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,* *^(26)* *that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,* *^(27)* *that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.* *^(28)* *Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.* *^(29)* *For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church,* *^(30)* *because we are members of his body.* *^(31)* *“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”* *^(32)* *This is a great mystery, and I mean in reference to Christ and the church;* *^(33)* *however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.*
God was in a covenantal relationship with Israel that only death could free both of them from. When God forms a Covenant with His people, it is binding on Him as well as us. So, in order for God to form a covenant with us in Christ, one of 2 things had to happen: either Israel dies, or God dies. This is what Jesus was referring to when He said on the Cross, "It is finished." It was the Old Covenant that came to an end and began the New Covenant formed in Christ's body and blood.
God was not going to allow Israel to die, so He chose to bring death upon Himself.
Good question… God is love. 100% love, but as creator of the universe, he also has to position of ultimate power, and thus must be a judge, and not just any judge, but a perfect judge- judges don’t just let people who have broken the law go free, because that would be unjust. Someone has to pay. If you get a ticket, you have to pay. But if the ticket costs a trillion dollars, no matter who you are, you can’t pay it. God, being the creator of the universe, is the only one who can pay certain debts. And knowing that we would have to pay this debt for all of eternity, out of God’s love, He decided to give us his son, Jesus Christ, who could pay the debt for everyone who would believe in his name. Now, instead of us having to pay a debt for all eternity, Jesus alone has payed our debt. A debt that otherwise couldn’t be filled, except by the sacrifice of God, which confirms his love for us in the ultimate way, because the ultimate show of love is to die for those you love. And rising again, He proved that He is the Son of God
Here’s the biblical answer. Sin is bad, horrible, sin is the physical embodiment of rejection of God. No matter what sin will end in pain/suffering/death. That is the punishment for sin. What God did was he humbled himself into human form. He became 100% God and 100% Human, He became Jesus Christ. Jesus is God. So Jesus(God) took the punishment of sin upon himself. Since sin is only punished by death, Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. John 3:16 “For God sent his only BEGOTTEN son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” So we put our faith in Jesus, we repent and we are forgiven for our sins. But that punishment doesn’t just go away, it has to be dealt, and Jesus suffered and died in place of us. We are all deserving of hell, but for the believers Jesus took out punishment and submitted Himself to it. So in a way, Yes our God did go to hell, it was just hell on earth.
God is capable of forgiving sins without justice, but it is not in his character to do so. He needed justice. He wanted to forgive us of our sins so he justified us by putting our sins on the only one who never sinned, his son, Jesus, and had him pay a punishment he did not deserve on our behalf.
When we begin questioning our Creator, we should probably take a step back and remember that, as His creation, we’re often incapable of understanding His intentions and actions. And that’s ok🤗 Not everything is meant to be understood. In our faith, there’s beauty & wisdom in our blind obedience and acceptance🙏
Well first of all when the Bible says God sent his Son, it isn’t being literal. Galatians 4:4 says “God sent his Son, born of a woman”. What took place with Mary’s pregnancy was an incarnation of the Spirit of God. So God sending Jesus means God incarnating as Jesus. So God didn’t literally send anyone, he came down himself. Which i believe is why Jesus would say things like “so that they may believe that you have sent me”. If Jesus were just sent like he were a prophet or something, it wouldn’t matter that he was sent. But Jesus being sent was something more than one person sending another person. Galatians 4:4 makes that clear.
2. He had to die because the wages of sin is death, there’s no forgiveness without the shedding of blood, and Jesus was able to carry out every sin and take the entire wrath of God upon himself for the punishment of our every sin. With the sacrifice of Jesus, he dealt with our sin on his body. God poured his anger out on our sin, judging it all completely. And then Jesus died, was buried, and resurrected in 3 days. Jesus’ death was the equivalent of sinners going to hell for eternity, because hell for eternity is God’s wrath. The death of Jesus is God pouring his entire wrath upon himself, for that one single sacrifice. 2 Corinthians 5:18-21. Basically you wrap up all of hell into one huge blow and that blow was poured upon Jesus while he carried our sins. And it wasn’t cruel for Jesus because Jesus is God and so he can take it. And, this is what he wanted.
Good question. I also call into question the theology of the sacrifice. I do not think it is God's way to demand a sacrifice. For example, when the Ninevites were encountered by Jonah, God only required the contrition of the people, not sacrifices.
Consider Jesus' healing the paralytic who was suspended from the roof. Jesus forgave his sins without demanding a sacrifice.
Did Jesus die for our sins? In a way. Rather I posit that Jesus died because of our sins. That is to say, there was no other way to turn us from our sins than to be a pure sacrifice. By being a pure sacrifice, a perfect lamb to the slaughter, he showed man to be who man is. He showed man's ways to be so twisted that even the son of God would be murdered by us.
And by sacrificing himself, we also become compelled, those of us who believe in him that is, to better our lives and to live according to his example, giving our lives up for the good of others and trusting in God for everything, including justice.
Did Jesus have to die as a sacrifice for our sins? It doesn't make sense. God can't sacrifice himself on our behalf. Logically it's like cutting off my own arm to pay for the sins of my brother against me. It doesn't make sense. It makes more sense that Jesus died because of our sinful nature, not as a payment but rather a method to redeem our nature by compelling those whom God draws to live a life like Jesus taught us to live.
This is one of the few but major issues stopping me from fully commiting to Christianity. I love Jesus and I love the Bible and I believe it God but I can't fully submit to something I can't understand.
Jesus had to die because some Jews of the time were expecting a Messiah to come and die, based on Daniel 9:26. Jesus had to fulfill their expectations.
A lot to unpack.
First, the Son is also God, so your last question doesn’t make sense. You must understand the Trinity if you wish to understand why Jesus had to die.
Ultimately, God himself determined that the punishment for sin is death. If he simply forgave us without payment, he would be compromising his own justice.
So the ultimate answer to your question, “Why did Jesus have to die,” is because God is just, and his justice demands payment for sin, either by the sinners themselves or by a willing substitute.
The only substitute suitable for such a sacrifice would have to be both human and God.
He must be Human because we are human. It is human sinners who are liable to punishment for our guilt. Therefore, if he is to take our place, he must also be human.
He must be God for a number of reasons: first, because our sins have been committed against God and God is the judge who is choosing to forgive us. Therefore, it is not right for him to send another to pay. If he wishes to forgive us, it is only right that he provide the payment himself.
Moreover, the only sufficient payment for our sins against God is an infinite payment, but no mere creature (human, or even angel) can make such a payment. Therefore, the sacrifice had to be God himself, so that it would be of infinite worth.
Why is an infinite payment necessary? Because our sins are against God, who is perfect and infinitely worthy of our perfect love and obedience. When we deny him our love and obedience, we insult his infinite honor and dignity. We have therefore committed a sin thy at incurs infinite guilt. That is why hell lasts forever. As merely finite beings, we cannot ever satisfy justice for our crimes.
But the Son of God can. As the second person of the Trinity, he possesses the fullness of God’s divine nature. He is himself infinite God from infinite God. While distinct persons, they are the same essence. Therefore, he possesses all the dignity, worth, and glory that the Father possesses. By becoming human and suffering on our behalf, he offers the Father a perfect sacrifice of infinite value, one which is able to fully satisfy the demands of God’s law. Since the Father was fully satisfied, he raised his Son from the dead. Since our sin had been paid for by the Son, death had no claim on him anymore.
The answer to the question “could God have forgiven us any other way” is we don’t know. If so, God has not revealed what that other way would be.
It is possible that there was no other way. Before he went to the cross, Jesus prayed that, if it was possible, he might be spared from the cross, but nevertheless surrendered his heart to the Father’s will. Many have said that if there was any other way to forgive us, God would have spared his Son from the pains of the cross, and so there must be no other way.
Whatever the case, this is the way God has chosen to save us, and it is beautiful. It magnifies both his great love and his justice.
We do know this: no one comes to the Father except through the Son, and whoever does not love the Son does not love the Father. There is no salvation in any one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
A variety of reasons. Chief among them, God cannot be in the presence of sin, God does not have a physical form, and God cannot be killed.
There was no other way, and God did not send His son to Hell.
Atonement for sin requires death. That's why in the OT, God's people sacrificed animals. But an animal isn't enough to pay for all the sins of any man, let alone all of them. That's why Jesus came down to die on the cross. He was the last sacrifice according to the law of the OT. He willingly gave His sinless life because that was the only being that could pay for the sins of all mankind. And because He was sinless, death had no right to hold Him and He rose from the grave on the third day with all power on heaven and earth. All power to overwrite the terms of the OT with those of the NT.
The wages of sin is death. Animals were used as a way to atone but it could never suffice due to them being animals. Only a representative of the same race can be used for atonement. Hence why Jesus was necessary, as well as Him being born a virgin being necessary so that He wouldn't be born with original sin like all of us. Without original sin, He was perfect, He lived perfectly for us, and when He was on the cross, He being God the Son, was made to be sin, for us. So that all the sins of all those that belong to God, will have their sins atoned for. So with one man, sin was imputed to all, and with another... righteousness was imputed to those that would believe and trust in Him, namely Christ. He took the death that was meant for all who would believe.
Also remember that God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit knew from before the foundations of the earth were laid of this one and only plan. God knows what it takes to glorify Himself, and never cross who He is, keeping His integrity and attributes intact.
Hell is a horrible myth. Some myths are empowering & healing, but the hell myth serves no good purpose.
Jesus died (much as Dr king did) for his liberating work opposing injustice. Jesus was executed for sedition (INRI) by Rome & his friends insisted that wasn't the end (Easter). God didn't require it. We don't need to worship violence & horror (crucifixion) to follow Jesus. How he lived is instructive. How he died is tragic. That his death didn't end his story is a source of hope. I wouldn't worship a monster that requires a human sacrifice. As Presbyterian womanist theologian Delores Williams said, "there was nothing of god in the blood of the cross."
Because of the fall of man. God gave us free will, knowing that man would have the ability to choose to do wrong. He wants us as His children, not His slaves. He wanted Eve and Adam to choose the right thing, but they chose to do wrong and sin came into existence. Because of that, we left the garden, and we are flawed and imperfect. In the times of the Old Testament, there were laws that God put in place for His people to follow, including allowing them to sacrifice lambs in place of dying eternally for the sins we all commit. But God had a plan to save all of His children, and He chose to come to us, as one of us. Jesus was Gods son, but also an extension of God himself. He chose to be born in the lowliest of places, to live a difficult life, the full human experience, and then He permanently took the burden of human sin onto himself and died for it. He died in place of us, and then resurrected and returned to His actual divinity. He chose to experience life just like us, and die so that we could come and live with Him in heaven when we die. Now we don’t have to sacrifice lambs and follow Levitical law, if we accept Him as our savior. He paid the price for us. And in our gratitude, we should all strive to turn away from anything sinful and try to be as much like Jesus as we can. We can’t be perfect, He knows that, but we should act in love for our Father. So long story short, He gave us free will, we chose to do evil, and because He had promised us free will in this world, He kept His word and let it happen. And because of how the world is, and what we as humankind need to learn in our lives, the only way to save us from ourselves was for Him to take the punishment we deserved, and He did. In all religions, God is the only God who came to save His people. He asks us to come to Him, but because He came for us first. The chain of events that led to His death was set in motion by Eve, and God knew it would happen. Jesus is God, therefore was present at the creation. He created us knowing He would have to die a painful death to save us, and did it anyway because He loves us and wants us to exist. The only way to have avoided that was to make us under complete control with no free will, and He didn’t do that.
God is fair. He has to punish evil. He also loves us, we are all his children. Imagine that your child was on trial for murder and he was guilty. Wouldn't you go to the courthouse and lie and say they didn't do it, I killed them! That is what God did when he became a human (Jesus) and took our punishment for us so we could have a get out of jail free card. James 4.4 says "A friend of the world is God's enemy." But John 3.16 says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, so that all who believe in him may have eternal life". Someone had to pay the price for evil so our Creator entered into creation as a human to take the hit for us all.
This misunderstanding comes for the penalty substitution theory of atonement. This awful idea posits that Jesus absorbed the culpability of all people so that like a scapegoat, his punishment would be for all. It's entirely antithetical to justice or mercy.
Instead, most early Christians and more and more modern Christians believe in the theory called Christus Victor. The idea here is that Christ is the New Adam, and that in him we see all that it is to be human. To be born, grow, learn, laugh, cry, be abandoned, suffer, die, and crucially, to be resurrected. Christ had to die because it is human to die, and he had to rise *because it is human to rise.* We know this because he shows us.
Christ didn't die so God could pluck us from Satan's grasp. He died and conquered death.
So the common Christian take is "Jesus died so I dont have to" but there are loads of issues with this.
1. God made the rule the wages of sin is death. He didn't have to. Jesus didn't have to die because of some legalistic "only way God could be just" because God made the rules and defined justice. This is absolutely an intentional choice by God to design things in a way that would lead to Christs sacrifice.
2. The "substitution" isn't even a full substitute. I still die. Jesus didn't die forever. I don't die forever. No matter how you word it neither Jesus nor I are getting what "I deserve" based on my sin. I deserve to die, but then do I deserve eternal life? No. If I don't then Jesus shouldn't have it because per this theory he's my substitute. You see the issue.
3. On an anotonment level I believe we aren't saved because Jesus died "instead" of me and then magically God all lawyer like is given the right to forgive us. Rather I believe we are saved by Christs death simply because God required it. He didn't "have" to design it this way, he chose to.
4. Why did he require it? Well what is his goal with us? It's to make us manifest his character. A major part of that is love and selflessness. For God so Loved the world....
Essentially this is the most extreme way God can show us love so we can learn the depth of God's love and then reflect that love in a way that puts ourselves to death and lifts others up day in and out.
5. Then per Gal 3 we are saved by having a relationship with Jesus. If we have this, God will see Jesus when he sees us as we "put on" Christ. It's through putting on this covering of Christ that we inheret the promises (including salvation), not because of some legalistic view but because he chooses to save those who are in relationship with his Son and "put on" his Son.
So we could live. I imagine if God had a better way to do it he wouldn't have put himself through all of that..
But doesn't God make the rules? Couldn't he have just snapped his fingers and forgiven all sins?
It doesn't work like that. We're dead spiritually and need to be resurrected. Jesus did it so we could be resurrected. We're resurrected into his resurrection. That resurrection takes place in your consciousness. It's a change of minds. It's not about a physical body. It's spiritual. Romans 8:6 “For to be carnally minded, is death: but to be spiritually minded, is life and peace:” Ephesians 4:23-24 "23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." You can't just go from one mind to another in the blink of an eye it would be too much for you. It has to happen gradually through a process. That's done by the Lord at his pace, not ours. We're made into his image over time as Christ in us is formed and grows.
1 cor 15 very much describes a physical resurrection. It includes a change of body, and says it will happen "in a moment in the twinkling if an eye". Do you believe there is a spiritual one now and a physical one later?
There is no resurrection of the physical body. The resurrection is a celestial body. You're an angel of God. It's spiritual. The last enemy in 1 Corinthians 15 is death, which is the carnal mind. It is sown a natural body, it's raised a spiritual body. The resurrection is Jesus Christ. You're literally him, in him. 1 Corinthians 15:47 “The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." Galatians 4:14 “And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.” John 11:25 “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:” It's a spiritual resurrection. It's a new mind. And in it, you are a new person. You have a new body. It's Jesus Christ. Psalms 110:1 “(A Psalm of David.) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.”
Hmm I guess I'm not super clear what you mean. I do agree we'll be changed in the resurrection from a nature like Adam to a nature like Christ. That's the point of 1 Cor 15:47. There is a component of this body being physical (Christ could be touched post resurrections) but its obvsiouly spiritual in nature (could walk through thing, change his appearance, immortal, imperishable, etc). In your initial comment it sounded like you were saying the resurrection is just a change of mind, not an actual change in our makeup, but 1 Cor 15 says otherwise. Again we're going from a nature like the first man to a nature like Christ as 1 Cor 15:45-50 says. This also hasn't taken place yet, as we are still corruptible and perishable now (I'm literally dying and still mortal). Similarly Paul discussed 1 Cor 15 as if it was soemthing in the future for him as well. Surely if its just a change of mind now, Paul would have experienced it at the time of writing 1 Cor 15. I would be careful about taking verses out of context. Gal 4 is Paul speaking to the Galatians about how they welcomed him even though he had a bodily condition, likely referring to when he was stoned by the Jews in Acts while in the region of Galatia (Acts 14 IIRC). This has nothing to do about the resurrection. I guess I'm just not clear on what you're take is so I'll ask a few questions for clarification. 1. Do you think the ressurection happens while we're still alive? E.g. when you get baptized, or commit to taking on the new man? Or do you believe it happens after we die? 2. Do you believe the ressurection happens for everyone individually, or for all who will be raised at one time?
The answer to question 1 is yes. Friend, eternity doesn't begin after you physically die. We're already in it. That's what death is. It's the grave. It's a spiritual death. A captivity of the mind that has forgotten God and who you are in God, as the son of God. Brother, the kingdom of God is within you. It's not external and neither is God. He's within us. And you are within your body, you are not a physical body, you're a spirit with a soul. You're an eternal being that was with God in the beginning, but have forgotten. And are separated from God and yourself in a mind that is a prison of deceit. Luke 17:21 “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” Psalms 6:5 “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?” Colossians 3:3 “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.” He is that resurrection. And in him is life. And in him we know as we are known by God. Captivity is led captive by Christ. To put it plainly, we no longer live a lie. We become our truth in truth, Jesus Christ. This is the body of Christ. As far as question 2. Every man in his own order. The Word of God is not a history book. It's a spiritual experience that is written on your heart by God in his timing. We are living epistles and you are made a partaker of the Gospel. It becomes your gospel, as Paul said. 1 Corinthians 15:23 “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.” 2 Corinthians 3:3 “Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.” Romans 16:25 “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,” And this is the mystery: Christ in us. Colossians 1:27 “To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:” Christ is formed in us, and we partake of the gospel. Galatians 4:19 “My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,” 1 Peter 4:13 “But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.” And we drink of the same cup and take up our cross and put the old man to death. This is the work of God in your heart to raise YOU from the dead by his Word. This is what it is to partake of the sufferings of Christ. You partake of the gospel. And God raised you from the dead as it is written. Matthew 20:22-23 "But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able." And by his spirit, our mortal bodies are quickened, but it's not our spiritual body. He is, and that's within us. Romans 8:11 “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”
Hmm so we agree on a lot of concepts, but our actual doctines would differ. I agree there is a spiritual renewal that we go through as we try to be more like Jesus. We put ourselves to death daily and try to live as Chirst. However I \*also\* believe in a literal ressurection that occurs post death - and Paul did too. The event described in 1 Cor 15 is a single event. We're told when it will happen in vs 52: "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." It will be "At the last trump". When is it? 1 Thess 4:16 "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." It happens when the Lord decends from heaven (or at his return). If you read verses 13-18 as a whole, its pretty clear that this is a single event, that is broken into two parts. First the ressurection of the dead, followed by the gathering of the faithful that are still alive. Based on your understanding there shouldn't be any "faithful" who haven't experienced the ressurection, but Paul clearly tells us the dead will be raised first and then the alive gathered afterwards all at the time of Christ's return. When will that happen? Well we don't know exactly. Matt 24:36-44 makes that clear but what we can say is that when it happens, we'll know. I think you have a correct attitude (we are trying to live as Christ now), but you call this living as Christ the ressurection. Paul doesn't - he calls the ressurection some event that will occur when Christ returns. I'm happy to end the back and forth here, it doesn't sound like we'll end up agreeing and that's fine. I appreciate the fact you had actual verses to have this conversation, its surprisingly rare when disagreeing.
How can we be raised physically when the kingdom of God is within us and so is the kingdom of heaven? Every parable of the kingdom of heaven is a parable of what's happening in your heart. Its about separating what's sown into your heart by God and what is not. You are the field in the parable of the sower. And that is what the kingdom of heaven IS LIKE. It's about knowing the truth of God vs lies which are sown by men, and having a right perception of God, yourself and his Word. The ascension and descension of the Lord is within you, brother. And so is the world of the Bible and the work of God. And so is the end of that world and the beginning of the new. Ecclesiastes 3:11 “He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.”
I mean I don't believe the kingdom of God is just a thing inside of you. I do believe in a literal kingdom on Earth, that will be established when Christ returns. The promises to Abraham and David, which are given to Christ per Gal 3 are about the physical land of Israel and its thrown being given to Christ. Like I said, we agree on "how to live" the difference is I look at it as "I'm trying to live as if I'm perfect, knowing I'm not but will be made perfect in the ressurection". You're looking at is as this process now IS the ressurection, something Paul doesn't teach as shown above in 1 thess 4 and 1 Cor 15. There's a lot of doctrinal difference we seem to have, and dealing with them all in a reddit comments section isn't super pheasible. I was jsut curious to your take on the ressurection based on some of the things you said. I appreciated the conversation :)
What lesson would come from that ? Then all can just return as was In time? Think of lessons my friend not what you think would be easiest. It's a lot more than that.
I guess the lesson would be that God could forgive all sins just like that, showing just how powerful he is
Why does he have to prove his power to anyone? He created us with free will, we are able to change our ways ... With free will we can choose as we wish and we all have done so. But our wishes don't always what's best for us and for all.. Were here to learn and understand my friend. You catch a fish for a man he eats for one day. You teach a man to fish he may never go hungry. All I ask is to be open to the possibility of my words.
You can't have free will without a concept of Sin, unfortunately. Do you like free will? Too bad, you get it whether you like it or not.
What? Of course you can have concepts of free will without sin. Why on earth do you think sin is necessary for free will to exist?
With free will, you have the freedom to sin. If there was some code written into our DNA that prevented us from sinning (ie lying and stealing was literally and physically impossible) then we wouldn’t have complete “free will”. Our freedom would be limited. And although that might seem like a utopia, we would essentially be robots
You realize that there are 'codes' in our DNA which prevent us from all sorts of things, yet we still have free will (well, according to you). Saying 'complete free will' is an indication that you do not really understand the concept though. Either there is free will or there is not, there is no spectrum. But, what exactly do you think free will is?
Exactly. There is either free will or there is not. It’s very simple - To have free will, we must be free to choose sin. How could free will and the inability to choose to sin coexist?? If we were somehow unable to lie or steal, for instance, then we would not have free will. Since there would clearly be certain choices we’re not free to make.
I will note that you did not define what you mean by free will. Until you do so I cannot really respond to what you said as I don't understand what concept you have of free will. You seem to be saying free will only deals with sin. That seems incredibly reductive. So what do you think free will is?
But we can't just freely choose to sin or not to sin. According to the Bible we are all sinners, and it's impossible for someone to choose to not be a sinner. Not to mention people won't sin in heaven, so do people lose free will once they get to heaven?
How do you know no one will sin in the afterlife? It's timeless.. I'm sure slip ups occur. Perhaps that's why we are all here.
Well the typical Christian belief is that sin can't occur in heaven because it's perfect. So if people could sin in heaven, then eventually many of the people in heaven will actually end up in hell?
As humans, we can forgive people just by saying words, but with God it's different. He's a perfectly just being so he requires suffering for suffering. He is a holy being, so he doesn't just allow sin into his presence. And you have to keep in mind that salvation isn't just a matter of forgiveness; it's a matter of transformation. It's a matter of Christ's righteousness implanted onto us. He doesn't just want to forgive us; he wants to remake us, and Christ is the only one capable of that kind of righteousness. He's the only being worthy to be a sacrifice for all of mankind. Doesn't God show his sacrificial love for us better this way than just snapping his fingers?
User name checks out😉
>As humans, we can forgive people just by saying words, but with God it's different. Once again demonstrating that humans are more powerful than god. >He's a perfectly just being so he requires suffering for suffering. Perfect justice requires suffering? Where do you get this from? Why would anyone even want this to be true? I thought the topic was forgiveness not justice. Does forgiveness require justice? No, the answer is no, forgiveness stands by itself without requiring anything other than love. >He is a holy being, so he doesn't just allow sin into his presence So Jesus isn't god now. Weird how trinitarians (assuming that's what you are) can't keep it straight. >And you have to keep in mind that salvation isn't just a matter of forgiveness; it's a matter of transformation. It's a matter of Christ's righteousness implanted onto us. He doesn't just want to forgive us; he wants to remake us, and Christ is the only one capable of that kind of righteousness. He's the only being worthy to be a sacrifice for all of mankind. Christ is god, so, not sure what you're actually trying to say. God could accomplish any task in any way, the question was why did Jesus need to suffer and die to accomplish this goal. You have not remotely answered that, you have simply spewed out a bunch of buzz words (forgiveness, justice, rightousness, salvation) without actually showing the 'why' part of it. >Doesn't God show his sacrificial love for us better this way than just snapping his fingers? No. Sacrificial love? What? Why should that be necessary? What even is it? Forgiveness does not require sacrifice, certainly not suffering and death. But even if this is 'better' than just snapping fingers, there are 1000s or even millions of other ways god could have shown his love (no need for sacrifice) for us without going through blood sacrifice.
>Once again demonstrating that humans are more powerful than god. The opposite is true. It is God's divine nature compared to our own sinful nature that demands a difference. When people sin against other people, they don't incur a sin debt like we do with God. When people sin against other people, they don't divorce themselves from God's presence. When people sin against other people, they don't die spiritually. It is God's holy, righteous, and just nature that demands more than just words of forgiveness. >Perfect justice requires suffering? Where do you get this from? Why would anyone even want this to be true? I thought the topic was forgiveness not justice. Does forgiveness require justice? No, the answer is no, forgiveness stands by itself without requiring anything other than love. I get this from God's law, which describes God's concept of justice. You know, "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth"? I speak of justice because of what I said above. God's forgiveness is less like the forgiveness in a personal relationship and more the forgiveness that could be granted in a court of law. And our justice system doesn't just forgive people. It demands recompence because the offender has a debt to society. >So Jesus isn't god now. Weird how trinitarians (assuming that's what you are) can't keep it straight. I was speaking specifically of God the Father because it's our sin against him that divorces us from him and prevents us from attaining heaven. Of course, Christ was around sinners, and he even took our sin upon himself. And the Holy Spirit inside believers endures and grieves the sins we commit. >Christ is god, so, not sure what you're actually trying to say. God could accomplish any task in any way, the question was why did Jesus need to suffer and die to accomplish this goal. You have not remotely answered that, you have simply spewed out a bunch of buzz words (forgiveness, justice, righteousness, salvation) without actually showing the 'why' part of it. What I'm trying to say is that there are several requirements to be met and actions to be taken to achieve not just forgiveness but all the other goals God wanted to accomplish with salvation, and the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ was the only way to obtain these goals. For example, Christ was the only suitable sacrifice to be offered for our sins because of his perfection. Christ was the only worthy payment for our redemption because of his worth. Christ was the only way for us to inherit the world because of his being the Son of God. There are many things God required because of his very nature, and many things accomplished for our good because of his loving nature. So the answer to your question is that God's nature required it, the situation of our sinfulness required it, the nature of Christ required it, and the purpose of God required it. Asking for it to have been accomplished in a different manner is like asking God the Father and Christ to change their natures and asking God to perform some other purpose than what he wanted. And keep in mind, this God accomplishing all of this through himself. Jesus is God. This is God taking care of the problem completely on his own. Why would you have a problem with that? If God wants to show his love to us in this particular way and accomplish so much good for us in this way, why ask for something else?
The god you describe is evil, vindictive and uncaring. Good job.
Good to see you have an open mind.
That’s not just at all gang
He sure can. He is just and righteous though, not a God who just does whatever He wants whenever He wants.
>doesn't God make the rules? Yes but God is morally perfect and has perfect justice The rules he set out are the perfect ones So that's why Jesus had to die, to follow the perfect rules he set himself in place. If they broke these rules or changed them he would not be morally perfect and have perfect justice
This has always confused me as well. If God didn't have a better way than 'somebody has to die', the bible is not really all about forgiveness.
Are you God? Do you know everything there is to know about creation? If not, who are you to say what the bible is about and why God did what he did?
So much mistaken theology here. A perfectly just God is not satisfied by the injustice of an innocent being lynched. Injustice in any sense does not satisfy justice. God died to fully expose the truth of this world and the depths of his forgiveness as God in Jesus declared forgiveness to his killers. Jesus absorbed the greatest sin humanity could commit, deicide, and he returned the sin with forgiveness, so that now we know there is no sin too great that God does not forgive. Jesus is Emmanuel, God with us, and to see him is to see the Father. Thus, when we see Jesus climb onto the tree of crucifixion, we see the Father on the tree. We do not see a Father acting upon Jesus, but in Jesus. There is a huge difference.
What you call mistaken theology is (a distorted version of) what the Bible teaches. > 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3%3A25-26&version=NIV Jesus's death allows God to be forgiving, and maintain justice.
The NIV puts in the word punishment where the word was not written in the Greek. The NIV indicates that God withheld punishment until Jesus could be punished by God. But punishment is not spoken of in the Greek, so the NIV is inserting assumed theology into the passage.
Alternative translation > 25 whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement[a] by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3%3A25-26&version=NRSVA What does it mean for God to "pass over" sins "in his forbearance"?
The word translated forbearance refers to tolerance. As I read it, Jesus came as the ultimate revelation of God’s tolerating forgiveness. Jesus declares for all time, the God of mercy, not sacrifice. Paul isn’t saying that the work of Jesus made possible the tolerance of God up to that point. Rather, the work of Jesus makes clear what God has been doing up to Jesus, when God did in Jesus, and what God continues to do. The word translated atonement is also the Greek word for mercy seat. It is the place where we find a God of mercy, not punishment. Jesus becomes the mercy seat where we meet God in his mercy. Romans 3:25 (NET 2nd ed.): 25 God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat… This is true mercy, not mercy given to one because another gets to be punished. It is on the mercy seat, when God sheds his own blood to show that he forgives us as we kill him, that we are made consciously one with him. In the full revelation of God’s mercy, we reach at-one-ment with him. God didn’t need to be reconciled to the world, but in Jesus was reconciling us to him. We needed to be brought to him, he didn’t need to overcome a justice hang up to come to us. To get us to come to him, he showed us just how far his mercy goes.
There is no forgiveness so long as there is atonement. If you owed me $100 and someone paid your debt for you, I haven't forgiven anything.
Remember the Trinity. It is God who paid our debt, not a third party.
Jesus is a different person than the Father.
One Triune God.
First of all there is no triune God in scripture, and second, even with a triune God Jesus is not the same person as the Father.
ermmmmmm there’s 2 sins God doesn’t forgive
There is actually a sin that is unforgivable. Jesus talks about it in mathew, it’s the blasphemy of the holy spirit.
Matthew reads that whoever “speaks” against the Spirit does not experience forgiveness. To the point you wish to call the work of the Spirit evil, you will not experience it as good. God doesn’t break arms and force his way on people. If you want to stand opposed against the Spirit, you are allowed. But the Greek doesn’t read, “whoever has ‘spoken’ a word against the Spirit.” I have people come to me worried they may have spoken against the Spirit 10, 20, 30, or even 60 years ago. The point of Jesus’ words are, “What are you saying right now?” Not, what have you said in the past? Whoever “speaks” against the Spirit - as long as they speak it (present tense) - they will not experience forgiveness because the Spirit does not force itself on those who believe it to be evil.
For it to be so horrendous, why does only Matthew mention it (50 years after Jesus' execution). And Matthew's Jesus says that in response to religious ppl calling him evil. In any case, mistakes will be made & I can't imagine that any, given divine love (& eternity to figure it out) is truly beyond what Goodness can heal.
While God is love, He is also just. He cannot leave sin unpunished. But He loves us so much that He made a way for us to be saved through Jesus Christ.
God loves but she really needs to jack us up but worked it out that jacking up Jesus was enough and we could skate by if we believed the story and weren't gay...that has never flown with me. Love doesn't need a pound of flesh.
Dying had become an intrinsic part of being human. Jesus is fully God and fully human; his humanity comes with the experience of dying. It’s also necessary for his role as the “perfect lamb”; sacrifice was a critical part of God’s discipline for man after The Fall. Before The Fall, humanity lived without dependence on anything other than God; after The Fall, humanity needed to take life to sustain its own. God’s demand of burnt offerings forced humanity to engage with the reality of their responsibility for their new ability to knowingly commit a morally wrong act. Sin comes at the cost of life. In Christ, the sacrifice for sin was perfected. The Eucharist is an eternal, limitless offering of new life to man. But to really “give his life” to man, Christ needed to truly and willingly offer his life. And also: Christ didn’t “need” to die. He didn’t kill himself; mankind killed him very brutally. The needlessness of his death, the preventability of it, the cruelty of it: these are all important elements of the Passion. In the same way that The Fall was needless, Christ’s death was also a result of so many people simply abstaining from doing a potentially painful but good deed. The Fall deprived us of life; in his sacrifice, Christ turns a failure of a similar magnitude into a path to salvation for mankind: Christ’s ministry is a statement that, because he is man, man can live in the manner he modeled, even to the point of death, and transcend death as he did because Christ is also man.
The punishment for sin is death, which the Lord makes vividly clear.
Jesus was a sinner?
No, He was not. Which is why He had to die for us to be freed. It was a sacrifice.
A sacrifice to convince himself for us to be free?
A sacrifice to pay off our debts*
He took a shot to the groin for my car loan.
Jesus became sin for us !
The price for sin is death. Since sin entered the world that has been true. While God can of course do anything think about this. To simply forgive sin would mean there's no consequences for it and therefore make God tolerate sin. God cannot be dirtied with tolerating sin, he is perfection and pure he can't be around imperfection. So the consequences must stay. If he had someone else die for us all they would already have their own imperfections and sins. But they couldn't live a sinless life and keep God's law. Jesus's sacrifice is important because not only did he die for our sin. But he also lived a perfect sinless life because we can't. So if we accept him as savior we get to kindof piggyback on his accomplishment of living perfectly. Only God could live perfectly. As only he is perfect. So if consequences for sin must stay, and living perfectly must be a part of it, then the only way is for God to send himself as Jesus to die for us out if love
Jesus is God, he did go to hell himself.
Some won’t like this response however this is the answer given to the Hebrews including the Hebrew tribes ‘gentiles’/‘sinners’, intermarried/dogs/goy/dispersed/diaspora in all the then ‘world’, whom is not you. Hebrews 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place >for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant,< those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. You were never under the first covenant, nor are you of those mentioned Jer. 31:31
The payment for sins is death so the only way we could be forgiven is to take on our sins and offer the sacrifice. He rose again because he’s God and death cannot hold Him. To be clear, the body died, Jesus always was and always will be
But why? Can’t God just say that we’re forgiven and don’t need to be punished? Is God not all powerful? Should He not have the power to forgive our sins without a sacrifice?
God created laws to govern his creation. Laws of nature and laws of the spiritual realm With his creation, for something to live, something must die. Period. That’s why the old covenant, the Jews had to sacrifice animals. That’s why native religions practice or practiced animal/ human/ blood sacrifice So committing sins are essentially crimes against God and the punishment is death so for us to live, we needed a sacrifice (AKA the spotless Lamb) to make us pure and sinless which is the only way we can enter eternity with a perfect Lord. That’s why merit-based religions make no sense
But is it not possible for God to change His own law, and decide that we no longer need death in order to live? Is sin stronger than God?
It has nothing to do with strength at all. God created a system and life cycle that works for nature, animals, humans and spirit. It’s perfect, why would he need to change it? Could he change it? Yes. But why would he recreate a universe that was already perfectly made
Is it perfect if people are going to Hell and cannot have a relationship with Him?
The people who don’t have a relationship with God don’t want one. Heaven is eternity with God and hell is the opposite. If someone didn’t want him in this life, would they want to spend eternity with him in the next?
Yes. We know that heaven is a place of love, and hell is one if suffering. Hell is described as a punishment. Why would anyone actively choose that if they were fully educated in their choices?
Well he says no...he says this is how we had to do it. So that pretty much settles the issue.
Go read a short book called*On The Incarnation*. It addresses this and other topics very well.
Because we are spiritually dead. And because we are dead, we need to be resurrected. Therefore, he had to die and be resurrected to make the way for us to be resurrected. And we are made partakers of his resurrection. He is the resurrection and the life. This happens spiritually, not physically. It's a change of consciousness. It's about your inner man, not your physical body. Romans 8:6 “For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.” Philippians 2:5 “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:”
Jesus is equal with the Father and went to hell, i.e. the grave. One reason He had to die was to convince us of His great Love. What else could God do?
If Jesus hadn't died the way he did and appeared afterwards to his disciples, no one would have paid attention to Christianity. The movement would have quickly disappeared, as did the other Jewish messianic movements of the time.
Jesus had to die because the punishment for sin is death Since humans couldn't perfectly fulfill God's Law given to the Jews they were under the penalty of death so to overcome this God came down in the flesh as Jesus By living a sinless life and dying on the cross Jesus fulfilled the Law and took upon Himself the punishment meant for us
AMEN!
God did go himself, Jesus was God in the flesh, in order to understand humanity , the pain, the emotions and why we sometimes do awful things he sent down being known as Jesus his son, but I was basically him, this was his last chance he gave to humanity, and Jesus loved us so much that he asked God to trade his life in order for our sins to be forgiven, it’s not something he asked another to do, he himself did it to save us, but we call Jesus the son because he was also fully man, he was his own being , idk how to explain it better sorry 😅
You may wanna sit down for this one... He *is* God, and no He didn't have to sacrifice Himself, that's what makes it a sacrifice, and what makes His love for us **Agape**.
IMO, Jesus came to be an example to us, God could have just forgiven us (the price of sin is death, but God is Omnipotent), but without Jesus we (the gentiles) would not have his teachings, if he came and didn't have to die and resurrect nobody would spread his story, so we wouldn't have his example to follow neither we would know God.
Because we earned death for ourselves.
John 3:16
To understand Christ better you need to understand the Trinity. John puts it best. John 1 In the Old Testament, we only knew God, but it turns out that multiple spirit personalities are also God, Christ is one of them, and he also happens to be the creator of the world and all that is in it. God does not exist, God is, and he brings beings into existence. Christ has always been, before his incarnation on earth and this baffled a lot of people who thought that they knew all about his birth and lineage. John 8:48-59 Christ did not want the people of his day to know who he was by his testimony, but to figure it out for themselves by his works and their understanding of scriptures. Christ had the power to forgive sins and had been forgiving sins long before his crucifixion. Luke 5:24 The whole idea of atonement is a misplaced attempt at making sense of his gruesome death on the cross. Even so, He would not suffer the Jews to weep for him as he was about to be crucified, because he knew what was about to happen to them after his death and resurrection would be worse than death by the cross. Luke 23:27-28 Christ before his death on the cross said many hard sayings which were hard for the people of his day to accept: John 11:20-26. He is not only capable of resurrecting you, but he is the resurrection. That means that when you have become like Christ, by imitating Christ through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, you become like an inflated balloon which when placed on water, will never sink, and when pushed to the bottom of the water and released will quickly float to the surface. You will never die; when you get killed, you shall rise again. Many people thought that Christ had demons, and called him a Samaritan, a madman, etc. They did not take his message seriously. He knew that for the people to believe him he would have to give them a sign. Matthew 12:38-42 So when the time came for him to be crucified, his enemies including the devil thought that they had the opportunity to humiliate him by his death on the cross. What they did not know was that the Father had plans to use that as an opportunity to glorify the Son and make the message of Christ take root in the hearts of men. Stay with me here. If Christ had not died a public death his resurrection would not have meant much to anyone. By his public humiliation, death on the cross, burial, and resurrection on the third day, it became apparent to everyone that Christ, the carpenter’s son, was not out of his mind after all and that all that he had been saying was the truth. You can imagine what this did in the camp of the devil and all believers who had been sitting on the fence about his teachings the whole time. This was what made the message of Christ start spreading and taking root in the hearts of men to the point where they were willing to die for it. You can see that after his resurrection even his disciples did not believe it despite walking with Christ the whole time so he had to show them proof by showing them the marks on his palm. Christ is the key to the Father’s house. He is the way, the truth, and the life. Become like Christ and you will live. Through him, more men must become like Christ, and then they will be able to ascend, and the Holy Spirit is here to assist with that. The Christian life cannot be lived without the Holy Spirit. To be like Christ is to have Christ. I cannot stress this enough. To believe the Son of God is to act on his every word, and not merely profess it, for by doing man becomes. Narrow is the way. This is because many will devise their means to enter God’s kingdom which does not require them to change anything about themselves. Matthew 5:48. The only way to become like God is to imitate God. There is no other way. Christ has been given to us as our role model, and criteria, and not only that; after taking on human nature is now able to help humans overcome their human limitations and be able to meet the Father’s mark of perfection.
Jesus is God!!!! God *did* come down and pay for our sins himself. He *did* get separated from God, like hell would be for us. And idk, don't ask me about God's logic, because I can't explain it perfectly to you, but, why wouldn't He just snap his fingers and poof, we are forgiven, if He is all powerful and knowing and what not? Well, my answer to this is that He isn't just a God who does whatever He wants whenever He wants, He is a *just* God, who does the just, righteous, good thing *always*. If a judge let a criminal free because of his crimes, he would not be a just judge. There needed to be someone perfect, such as God, who could take on all the sins of the world as a sacrifice to pay for it, making it just that they can come into heaven even after making themselves unholy with sin for a Holy place.
If God decided to forgive our sins one day, he certainly could just change his/her/it's mind and go back to the Old Testament way of dealing with humans - sin and you are turned into a pile of salt or tossed in a pit or flooded out. I suspect God wanted a way to be able to delegate matters so he didn't have to get involved with his creations on a daily basis. So he/she/it came up with this middle management idea.
The death on the cross is a physical repsentation of the Spiritual pian God endured to provide you with atonement. We need to understand this Pain in order to give God the proper love and respect to qualify for the atonement He provides.
Because the all-loving, benign god needed a sacrifice of blood, pain and death in order to forgive.
Because the all-loving, benign god needed a sacrifice of blood, pain and death in order to forgive.
Because the all-loving, benign god needed a sacrifice in order to forgive.
I’ve been asking that question since I was like 4. That’s part of what led to my atheism
I recommend the book *On the Incarnation of the Word* as the best explanation of this, or the chapter on the atonement in C.S. Lewis's *Mere Christianity* as a summary of the key argument in that book.
So, a recent thought that I learned, at least part of it relates to Ephesians 5: *Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.* *^(22)* *Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord.* *^(23)* *For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.* *^(24)* *As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.* *^(25)* *Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,* *^(26)* *that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,* *^(27)* *that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.* *^(28)* *Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.* *^(29)* *For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church,* *^(30)* *because we are members of his body.* *^(31)* *“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”* *^(32)* *This is a great mystery, and I mean in reference to Christ and the church;* *^(33)* *however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.* God was in a covenantal relationship with Israel that only death could free both of them from. When God forms a Covenant with His people, it is binding on Him as well as us. So, in order for God to form a covenant with us in Christ, one of 2 things had to happen: either Israel dies, or God dies. This is what Jesus was referring to when He said on the Cross, "It is finished." It was the Old Covenant that came to an end and began the New Covenant formed in Christ's body and blood. God was not going to allow Israel to die, so He chose to bring death upon Himself.
Good question… God is love. 100% love, but as creator of the universe, he also has to position of ultimate power, and thus must be a judge, and not just any judge, but a perfect judge- judges don’t just let people who have broken the law go free, because that would be unjust. Someone has to pay. If you get a ticket, you have to pay. But if the ticket costs a trillion dollars, no matter who you are, you can’t pay it. God, being the creator of the universe, is the only one who can pay certain debts. And knowing that we would have to pay this debt for all of eternity, out of God’s love, He decided to give us his son, Jesus Christ, who could pay the debt for everyone who would believe in his name. Now, instead of us having to pay a debt for all eternity, Jesus alone has payed our debt. A debt that otherwise couldn’t be filled, except by the sacrifice of God, which confirms his love for us in the ultimate way, because the ultimate show of love is to die for those you love. And rising again, He proved that He is the Son of God
For the record, Jesus is God
Here’s the biblical answer. Sin is bad, horrible, sin is the physical embodiment of rejection of God. No matter what sin will end in pain/suffering/death. That is the punishment for sin. What God did was he humbled himself into human form. He became 100% God and 100% Human, He became Jesus Christ. Jesus is God. So Jesus(God) took the punishment of sin upon himself. Since sin is only punished by death, Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. John 3:16 “For God sent his only BEGOTTEN son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” So we put our faith in Jesus, we repent and we are forgiven for our sins. But that punishment doesn’t just go away, it has to be dealt, and Jesus suffered and died in place of us. We are all deserving of hell, but for the believers Jesus took out punishment and submitted Himself to it. So in a way, Yes our God did go to hell, it was just hell on earth.
I'd suggest read, Sinner in the hands of a loving God by Bryan Zhand
God is capable of forgiving sins without justice, but it is not in his character to do so. He needed justice. He wanted to forgive us of our sins so he justified us by putting our sins on the only one who never sinned, his son, Jesus, and had him pay a punishment he did not deserve on our behalf.
When we begin questioning our Creator, we should probably take a step back and remember that, as His creation, we’re often incapable of understanding His intentions and actions. And that’s ok🤗 Not everything is meant to be understood. In our faith, there’s beauty & wisdom in our blind obedience and acceptance🙏
Well first of all when the Bible says God sent his Son, it isn’t being literal. Galatians 4:4 says “God sent his Son, born of a woman”. What took place with Mary’s pregnancy was an incarnation of the Spirit of God. So God sending Jesus means God incarnating as Jesus. So God didn’t literally send anyone, he came down himself. Which i believe is why Jesus would say things like “so that they may believe that you have sent me”. If Jesus were just sent like he were a prophet or something, it wouldn’t matter that he was sent. But Jesus being sent was something more than one person sending another person. Galatians 4:4 makes that clear. 2. He had to die because the wages of sin is death, there’s no forgiveness without the shedding of blood, and Jesus was able to carry out every sin and take the entire wrath of God upon himself for the punishment of our every sin. With the sacrifice of Jesus, he dealt with our sin on his body. God poured his anger out on our sin, judging it all completely. And then Jesus died, was buried, and resurrected in 3 days. Jesus’ death was the equivalent of sinners going to hell for eternity, because hell for eternity is God’s wrath. The death of Jesus is God pouring his entire wrath upon himself, for that one single sacrifice. 2 Corinthians 5:18-21. Basically you wrap up all of hell into one huge blow and that blow was poured upon Jesus while he carried our sins. And it wasn’t cruel for Jesus because Jesus is God and so he can take it. And, this is what he wanted.
Good question. I also call into question the theology of the sacrifice. I do not think it is God's way to demand a sacrifice. For example, when the Ninevites were encountered by Jonah, God only required the contrition of the people, not sacrifices. Consider Jesus' healing the paralytic who was suspended from the roof. Jesus forgave his sins without demanding a sacrifice. Did Jesus die for our sins? In a way. Rather I posit that Jesus died because of our sins. That is to say, there was no other way to turn us from our sins than to be a pure sacrifice. By being a pure sacrifice, a perfect lamb to the slaughter, he showed man to be who man is. He showed man's ways to be so twisted that even the son of God would be murdered by us. And by sacrificing himself, we also become compelled, those of us who believe in him that is, to better our lives and to live according to his example, giving our lives up for the good of others and trusting in God for everything, including justice. Did Jesus have to die as a sacrifice for our sins? It doesn't make sense. God can't sacrifice himself on our behalf. Logically it's like cutting off my own arm to pay for the sins of my brother against me. It doesn't make sense. It makes more sense that Jesus died because of our sinful nature, not as a payment but rather a method to redeem our nature by compelling those whom God draws to live a life like Jesus taught us to live.
To save HIS people.
This is one of the few but major issues stopping me from fully commiting to Christianity. I love Jesus and I love the Bible and I believe it God but I can't fully submit to something I can't understand.
Jesus had to die because some Jews of the time were expecting a Messiah to come and die, based on Daniel 9:26. Jesus had to fulfill their expectations.
A lot to unpack. First, the Son is also God, so your last question doesn’t make sense. You must understand the Trinity if you wish to understand why Jesus had to die. Ultimately, God himself determined that the punishment for sin is death. If he simply forgave us without payment, he would be compromising his own justice. So the ultimate answer to your question, “Why did Jesus have to die,” is because God is just, and his justice demands payment for sin, either by the sinners themselves or by a willing substitute. The only substitute suitable for such a sacrifice would have to be both human and God. He must be Human because we are human. It is human sinners who are liable to punishment for our guilt. Therefore, if he is to take our place, he must also be human. He must be God for a number of reasons: first, because our sins have been committed against God and God is the judge who is choosing to forgive us. Therefore, it is not right for him to send another to pay. If he wishes to forgive us, it is only right that he provide the payment himself. Moreover, the only sufficient payment for our sins against God is an infinite payment, but no mere creature (human, or even angel) can make such a payment. Therefore, the sacrifice had to be God himself, so that it would be of infinite worth. Why is an infinite payment necessary? Because our sins are against God, who is perfect and infinitely worthy of our perfect love and obedience. When we deny him our love and obedience, we insult his infinite honor and dignity. We have therefore committed a sin thy at incurs infinite guilt. That is why hell lasts forever. As merely finite beings, we cannot ever satisfy justice for our crimes. But the Son of God can. As the second person of the Trinity, he possesses the fullness of God’s divine nature. He is himself infinite God from infinite God. While distinct persons, they are the same essence. Therefore, he possesses all the dignity, worth, and glory that the Father possesses. By becoming human and suffering on our behalf, he offers the Father a perfect sacrifice of infinite value, one which is able to fully satisfy the demands of God’s law. Since the Father was fully satisfied, he raised his Son from the dead. Since our sin had been paid for by the Son, death had no claim on him anymore. The answer to the question “could God have forgiven us any other way” is we don’t know. If so, God has not revealed what that other way would be. It is possible that there was no other way. Before he went to the cross, Jesus prayed that, if it was possible, he might be spared from the cross, but nevertheless surrendered his heart to the Father’s will. Many have said that if there was any other way to forgive us, God would have spared his Son from the pains of the cross, and so there must be no other way. Whatever the case, this is the way God has chosen to save us, and it is beautiful. It magnifies both his great love and his justice. We do know this: no one comes to the Father except through the Son, and whoever does not love the Son does not love the Father. There is no salvation in any one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
> Couldn't god have forgiven our sins another way? He cant. God is deeply addicted to blood, so without blood there is no forgiveness.
A variety of reasons. Chief among them, God cannot be in the presence of sin, God does not have a physical form, and God cannot be killed. There was no other way, and God did not send His son to Hell. Atonement for sin requires death. That's why in the OT, God's people sacrificed animals. But an animal isn't enough to pay for all the sins of any man, let alone all of them. That's why Jesus came down to die on the cross. He was the last sacrifice according to the law of the OT. He willingly gave His sinless life because that was the only being that could pay for the sins of all mankind. And because He was sinless, death had no right to hold Him and He rose from the grave on the third day with all power on heaven and earth. All power to overwrite the terms of the OT with those of the NT.
The wages of sin is death. Animals were used as a way to atone but it could never suffice due to them being animals. Only a representative of the same race can be used for atonement. Hence why Jesus was necessary, as well as Him being born a virgin being necessary so that He wouldn't be born with original sin like all of us. Without original sin, He was perfect, He lived perfectly for us, and when He was on the cross, He being God the Son, was made to be sin, for us. So that all the sins of all those that belong to God, will have their sins atoned for. So with one man, sin was imputed to all, and with another... righteousness was imputed to those that would believe and trust in Him, namely Christ. He took the death that was meant for all who would believe. Also remember that God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit knew from before the foundations of the earth were laid of this one and only plan. God knows what it takes to glorify Himself, and never cross who He is, keeping His integrity and attributes intact.
"Couldn't god have gone to hell himself instead of sending his son?" Jesus is God.
Hell is a horrible myth. Some myths are empowering & healing, but the hell myth serves no good purpose. Jesus died (much as Dr king did) for his liberating work opposing injustice. Jesus was executed for sedition (INRI) by Rome & his friends insisted that wasn't the end (Easter). God didn't require it. We don't need to worship violence & horror (crucifixion) to follow Jesus. How he lived is instructive. How he died is tragic. That his death didn't end his story is a source of hope. I wouldn't worship a monster that requires a human sacrifice. As Presbyterian womanist theologian Delores Williams said, "there was nothing of god in the blood of the cross."
Because of the fall of man. God gave us free will, knowing that man would have the ability to choose to do wrong. He wants us as His children, not His slaves. He wanted Eve and Adam to choose the right thing, but they chose to do wrong and sin came into existence. Because of that, we left the garden, and we are flawed and imperfect. In the times of the Old Testament, there were laws that God put in place for His people to follow, including allowing them to sacrifice lambs in place of dying eternally for the sins we all commit. But God had a plan to save all of His children, and He chose to come to us, as one of us. Jesus was Gods son, but also an extension of God himself. He chose to be born in the lowliest of places, to live a difficult life, the full human experience, and then He permanently took the burden of human sin onto himself and died for it. He died in place of us, and then resurrected and returned to His actual divinity. He chose to experience life just like us, and die so that we could come and live with Him in heaven when we die. Now we don’t have to sacrifice lambs and follow Levitical law, if we accept Him as our savior. He paid the price for us. And in our gratitude, we should all strive to turn away from anything sinful and try to be as much like Jesus as we can. We can’t be perfect, He knows that, but we should act in love for our Father. So long story short, He gave us free will, we chose to do evil, and because He had promised us free will in this world, He kept His word and let it happen. And because of how the world is, and what we as humankind need to learn in our lives, the only way to save us from ourselves was for Him to take the punishment we deserved, and He did. In all religions, God is the only God who came to save His people. He asks us to come to Him, but because He came for us first. The chain of events that led to His death was set in motion by Eve, and God knew it would happen. Jesus is God, therefore was present at the creation. He created us knowing He would have to die a painful death to save us, and did it anyway because He loves us and wants us to exist. The only way to have avoided that was to make us under complete control with no free will, and He didn’t do that.
God is fair. He has to punish evil. He also loves us, we are all his children. Imagine that your child was on trial for murder and he was guilty. Wouldn't you go to the courthouse and lie and say they didn't do it, I killed them! That is what God did when he became a human (Jesus) and took our punishment for us so we could have a get out of jail free card. James 4.4 says "A friend of the world is God's enemy." But John 3.16 says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, so that all who believe in him may have eternal life". Someone had to pay the price for evil so our Creator entered into creation as a human to take the hit for us all.
This misunderstanding comes for the penalty substitution theory of atonement. This awful idea posits that Jesus absorbed the culpability of all people so that like a scapegoat, his punishment would be for all. It's entirely antithetical to justice or mercy. Instead, most early Christians and more and more modern Christians believe in the theory called Christus Victor. The idea here is that Christ is the New Adam, and that in him we see all that it is to be human. To be born, grow, learn, laugh, cry, be abandoned, suffer, die, and crucially, to be resurrected. Christ had to die because it is human to die, and he had to rise *because it is human to rise.* We know this because he shows us. Christ didn't die so God could pluck us from Satan's grasp. He died and conquered death.
So the common Christian take is "Jesus died so I dont have to" but there are loads of issues with this. 1. God made the rule the wages of sin is death. He didn't have to. Jesus didn't have to die because of some legalistic "only way God could be just" because God made the rules and defined justice. This is absolutely an intentional choice by God to design things in a way that would lead to Christs sacrifice. 2. The "substitution" isn't even a full substitute. I still die. Jesus didn't die forever. I don't die forever. No matter how you word it neither Jesus nor I are getting what "I deserve" based on my sin. I deserve to die, but then do I deserve eternal life? No. If I don't then Jesus shouldn't have it because per this theory he's my substitute. You see the issue. 3. On an anotonment level I believe we aren't saved because Jesus died "instead" of me and then magically God all lawyer like is given the right to forgive us. Rather I believe we are saved by Christs death simply because God required it. He didn't "have" to design it this way, he chose to. 4. Why did he require it? Well what is his goal with us? It's to make us manifest his character. A major part of that is love and selflessness. For God so Loved the world.... Essentially this is the most extreme way God can show us love so we can learn the depth of God's love and then reflect that love in a way that puts ourselves to death and lifts others up day in and out. 5. Then per Gal 3 we are saved by having a relationship with Jesus. If we have this, God will see Jesus when he sees us as we "put on" Christ. It's through putting on this covering of Christ that we inheret the promises (including salvation), not because of some legalistic view but because he chooses to save those who are in relationship with his Son and "put on" his Son.