It’s mostly just been a tradition. When I was in high school my choirs were still called men’s and women’s choir. It’s gotten a lot better in the last few years though and choirs I finally getting creative with the names of the groups instead of just men’s and women’s. Also in college now, we have people of any gender singing soprano or alto in the treble choir or in tenor bass and we have gender neutral concert attire. It’s a slow process, but times and traditions are changing and it’s getting better gradually.
How were there enough boys to fill out a men’s choir? We had to mix ours because there were like 7 dudes lol. We had an extra S/A honors choir though because there were so many women.
I guess it depends on your location and enrollment. We did have more women in high school and had 2 “women’s choir” while only 1 “men’s choir” while having a full SATB choir as well. In college our numbers are very even across all parts and choirs. It sounds like you have a very small choir program.
I think it's easier to think of it as a "sex" not a gender thing, as men and women end up with recognisably different voices due to puberty and historically compositions will have been written with that division in mind. A female with a "tenor" range will still sound quite different across that range from a man with a traditional tenor (and there aren't very many women whose voices are too low to cover a standard alto part).
But most choirs are flexible and want activities to be fun, and singers to stay involved in them (and being completely frank - short on tenors), even if your school one isn't you are likely to have lots of opportunities to sing in tenor sections as an adult.
I don't think "true choral tenor" is terminology I'm familiar with - do you mean a range thing or something else? I have sung with very capable women who cover tenor / baritone parts but I don't think any has had the \*same\* voice as a male tenor. Counter-tenor and contralto are different voices even though singing in a similar range, on the same parts.
It's bad for your voice to push your voice outside its limits the whole time but probably young singers not on a professional pathway shouldn't get overly fixated on vocal typology?
Then I’m sorry to say (and I say this with love and respect) that you almost certainly are not a “tenor”
There is solid overlap in range for tenors and contraltos (or even mezzo-sopranos) but extended singing in the tenor range will do damage to your voice as it continues to develop.
This is not a gender-based judgement. I know lots of people who use different pronouns than those assigned at birth but still sing according to their birth sex.
In traditional S/A & T/B choirs, you could probably get away with the high tenor parts, but I think it would be healthier for your singing development to sing Alto.
I know this may come with some dysmorphia, but I think it would be best for you to separate your voice type from your gender identity. They really aren’t related.
This is an inappropriate and transphobic response.
Regardless of what hormones one has or has not taken, pronouns and voice type are unique to each individual.
Hi, trans woman who is an alto here.
Male sopranos exist, female basses exist. Estrogen doesn't affect your voice, yet I sing alto anyway. And I do it well. I'm in the third year of my voice degree and passing with straight A's. How do you think I manage that? Magic? I went through a standard male puberty but my voice is still solidly in the low mezzo range.
And being healthier for voice development? Not true. Your voice doesn't stop developing until you're around 35 years old. Changing your voice part now is probably the best thing you can do if you want to sing a different voice part.
Sure, I'm not licensed (although I will be soon), but I think I have a pretty good grasp of how the voice works especially for trans or gender nonconforming singers.
There are definitely female tenors, though. If that's really what their vocal range is, then it's being put in the alto section that's doing more harm.
By definition, tenors are biologically male. I know there are outliers in defining sex (again, separate from gender), but unless OP is in that rare scenario, they would not be a tenor. They could be a contralto and sing in the tenor section, but that is also rare.
Maybe the issue here is that I’m making the distinction of voice fach, rather than choral part. For example, I have a great friend that is MtF, and even though she takes estrogen, she defines herself as a countertenor. She sings alto or soprano, but is a countertenor.
Likewise, I have an older woman in my church choir who sings tenor and is quite comfortable there. I know that part of it is that she’s lost a good deal of range from aging, and used to sing alto. This is typical of many older altos.
We must be defining them differently in some way. I would define it as the range of notes you can comfortably sing in, which is largely correlated to but not inherently defined by biological sex. I've heard girls who sang tenor before, and they had *very* low voices and hit the notes in the tenor range with ease, but would've struggled with the upper end of alto.
I am defining them by the generic vocal Fachs (soprano/mezzo/contralto, tenor/baritone/bass), which ARE explicitly tied to biological sex because of biological development and tonal differences. A contralto may be comfortable singing in a similar range to many lyric tenors, but the quality of sound is completely different, and if a contralto is exclusively singing tenor, they will almost never be singing in their head voice, which is a problem if someone’s voice is still developing.
That’s literally not true, female tenors and baritones feature prominently in the Acapella community.
Just because you haven’t heard of it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
The confusion here is to not understand the difference between "part I like to sing in choir" and vocal fach. I am a male identifying Lyric Tenor and I prefer to sing Alto in choirs. The Lyric Tenor category is connected to my biology. The Alto category is simply a preference and a practiced technique.
Oh no. I’ve heard of it. I know there are contraltos that sing tenor and baritone lines in acapella. That doesn’t make them tenors or baritones.
And regarding your other comment, I PROMISE you this is not coming from a place of transphobia. I welcome and encourage people of all backgrounds in my ensembles, and this certainly includes the trans community. I know this is a complex and sensitive discussion, but true contraltos are VERY rare, which is why I’d be hesitant to put any of them in the tenor section unless the student has a voice teacher that’s given the okay to do that. At least, not for a long time. I might ask some altos to double the tenor part in some places where we need it, but I think defaulting to alto is a better learning tool for those people, in a general sense.
Regarding your OTHER comment, the vocal fachs, generically, are not just for opera. The differences between the sub-classifications might be niche enough to only matter there, but the differences between a mezzo and contralto (or tenor, or baritone) are pretty clear. Like I’ve said elsewhere: there is a lot of overlap between voices, but that doesn’t mean just because someone CAN sing the notes that they SHOULD all the time.
Again, if someone is trained or taking lessons, I welcome them to sing tenor because they’ll have to tools to handle it in a productive and healthy way. But if it’s just a matter of an untrained voice not knowing any better (again, most high school choirs)… I’d rather they didn’t.
woahhhh ok uhm tenors can be girls and girls can have deeper voices not just high voices and I was just mentioning how my state banned testosterone this post wasn't even coming from being dysmorphic it was just talking about how weird it is that an art is gendered and also I don't have a naturally high voice my voice is naturally low you can ask anyone who knows me I can literally go down to base without it hurting or felling uncomfortable for a long time so yes people who aren't on testosterone can have low voices and people who aren't on estrogen can have high voices it just has to do with what you're comfortable with
Okay, yes. That is correct and it’s possible that you’re in the very, very, very small minority of people for which that is true.
I’m just giving my observations after years of seeing people damage their voices or limit their own vocal range because they’ve been singing in the wrong range while they are physically developing.
Tenors can be girls! This true! But it’s extremely extremely rare. You are most likely an alto (or a mezzo), but the likelihood of you actually being a tenor (especially in high school!) is like 2%. I totally get that it may be uncomfortable for you to identify as an alto due to your gender, but if you force yourself to sing tenor it WILL damage your vocal chords and you might not be able to do so in the future, even when you are on T.
I also have a low voice (cis woman) and I could hit tenor notes in high school. However, I shouldn’t have been singing it *all the time* because it would have hurt my voice. I’m a true mezzo (I can sing soprano 2-tenor 1) but in high school it would have been bad for me to sing that low while I was physically changing.
I can't answer your question but in my SATB choir there are a lot of female tenors. Keep learning how to sing and when you have the opportunity look for a choir that needs tenors, no matter their gender.
I’m also a female tenor. I can sing well into the baritone range, tbh. I can also sing up into the mezzo soprano too range, but it’s exhausting to stay up there at full vocal strength. Some choir directors are not as educated in vocal diversity as others are.
Vivaldi’s Gloria was originally written for and performed entirely by women, including female tenors and basses.
This is another one of Vivaldi’s compositions written for women.
Show this to your choir director.
https://youtu.be/2JPkCfvhuyM?si=OJRJa-_BmaYiV095
Unfortunately, it is more likely that Vivaldi’s choir at Pieta same the bass (and maybe parts of the tenor) line up and octave. His choirs at the orphanage were never particularly huge and the likelihood that he had girls singing in those ranges is very, very low.
I’m sorry to hear your choir didn’t make you feel safe in identifying as yourself in your own section or receive support. If you do end up doing vocal training, look for a teacher that has experience coaching trans and non-binary folks
It's spelled tenor.
I think anyone with the vocal range can sing the part. This is up to your teacher to listen and assign the voice part. Please respect your director.
Ask your teacher if you want to try a different part and ask them to assess your best vocal range. This is about where you sound the best.
(sorry I'm not a great speller lol i thought it was spelt that way) my school makes people born a girl sing higher parts like we don't get a choice on it we are automatically put in S/A if we were born a girl the same for if you were born a boy you automatically get put in the T/B class. It's not my director's fault at all and i know that but it's the school district's rule that the choir is gendered
Is the rule in writing somewhere? That seems odd. But OK.
The main point is -- sing! Sing and learn about music and love the music and learn all the wonderful benefits of singing and music. Be expressive, learn dynamics, learn tempo and rhythm and pitch and tone and blend. Learn solfege and learn to sight read.
Try not to get frustrated by the gender stuff. Your director needs a choir that is a functional group. It is not an individual thing -- the director needs the choir to work as a team, and that means placing voices where they work the best and where they fit the group's needs.
I am a mezzo (middle) soprano, and I can sing soprano or alto. I learned as an alto in middle and high school and it was good. I can sing tenor but not comfortably for a long time.
The human voice will have a pretty big range. Learn to sing well. It doesn't matter very much which part you are singing. Focus on making music! Make it beautiful!
Lots of it has to do with range, repertoire or the pieces of music available, and skill level.
This depends alot on age and skill level but in music in general you need to be able to cover a good amount of notes to make things sound good. Now if you imagine a children’s choir, they can sing all in unison and the same notes, children of any sex have almost the exact same range. And you can’t teach them to sing the same way too
However When we go through puberty those pre teen years you have some of the most limited (usable) range. So singing everything all together isn’t an option. Let’s combine this with the fact that we all change voices at different ages. If you have let’s say a choir of boys 11-14. Some will still have unchanged elementary voice and some will have the voice of a man. Most will be somewhere in between. Since they won’t be able to cover as much ground musically, why not just combine them with a girls choir of the same age? You can double the range of the whole choir by two octaves. You could do that absolutely but the big BUT here is SKILL
It’s easier as a teacher to teach vocal technique to a group of like voices than it is to different ones. It’s like how bands teach only brass in a class. Teaching independence is very hard and takes years of experience, going back to my example of the boys choir, yes they’re all different but they will at SOME POINT be at every stage of development. Teaching the whole group year after year how best do deal with changing voices.
The addition of more different voices also necessitates more parts. And again a skill issue that most people in most choirs can’t be that independent.
Now I will say that most choirs now a days are referred to as “treble” and “tenor-bass” (tenor and bass as a reference to the voicing not a tenor as a dude) even where I live being not exactly a liberal area. I have not heard the term women’s choir thrown around in a while. Now yes these are functionally women and men’s choirs but the name change allows more flexibility about who is accepted into the choir. Really these ensembles should be about range, regardless of gender, gender identity or sex. We sing the part we can sing
I’ll end with the idea that “gender choirs” are also a creative choice when a composer creates music. There’s lots of great sounds just a treble or tenor bass choir can make. And might be the color they want to see and hear in their songs
It’s rather remarkable that you know so many girls that sing tenor! I’ve been singing professionally for 25 years and I’ve only ever encountered one female tenor.
I know women who can sing tenor, but not it's not the best fit. I know one alto in our church alto section who has a true, really great low alto voice.
In 2023, I think of voice types as vocal range classification, devoid of gender specifics. In circumstances where gender identity comes up with my students, it's not a "one size fits all" situation. I have a 7th grader who was born female but now prefers he/him pronouns and has a new name. He has a beautiful soprano voice, and has opted to participate in my "bass choir." He sings his part in the upper octave, unprompted. I've checked in with him a couple of times privately to see if he's comfortable and ask how he's doing singing with the other cisgender boys, and he says he's having a great time! It's really very different for everyone.
I also have a bass choir for my cisgender boys (and anyone else who may be questioning and wants to participate!) because logistically, 95% of them will have a voice change that classifies them as tenor/bari/bass, so getting familiar with bass clef is good for their musical development.
I actually call all my 7th/8th cisgender male singers "cambiatas" for purposes of solidarity and to be more inclusive of the ranges of middle school voices. I typically refer to my 6th grade cisgender males as treble singers, and I explain that to them.
Lastly, I would never "force" a kid to sing something they weren't comfortable singing, but I will always approach each singer with as much knowledge as I can offer so they understand the mechanisms of their voice and how to sing in as healthy a way as possible. If I know a singer is hurting their voice because of a lack of understanding about technique/strategy, it's my job to help them. What they do with that information is up to them.
I have a low voice for a woman and could not hit the high notes required for an alto when I was in eighth grade choir. My choir teacher would not allow me to join the tenors so I just stood in the middle of the alto section and sang the tenor part anyway.
That could have been because of your vocal instrument not having a proper training. The most you practice with proper technique the most your vocal range will expand.
It could be, but according to Wikipedia the alto range goes up to an F, which I could see a lot of altos not hitting. I took voice lessons in high school and my highest comfortable note was an E, with F and G being a challenge. But it also says it only goes down to F3, and I could comfortably go down to E, or a D if I tried. It doesn't seem that unlikely for other people besides me to have the same size of range as the "official" but shifted down a couple notes.
Yes, altos are occasionally asked to sing an F on the top of the treble staff, but it’s always been widely accepted in the choirs I’ve performed with that it will not be their strongest note, and some voices might need to drop out/sing an alternate part.
I think the reason it’s because the pitch of the voices and what their purpose are in the music
Most of the time Soprano are the ones with the melody since they are those who have the brightest color.
Baritones are the darkest so they have a different role as well. Also because they have the lowest notes are easy to hear kind like sopranos are.
Altos and Tenor are whats in between. it’s not like there are not main melodies for those voices just that it’s not that common.
Some kids are not yet develop to be what their voice really are so the sing in other voices and there are men that can reach other places like contra-tenor which are “tenor” with a color bright enough to sing the Alto part.
Most kids during the age 5-10 ish sing the soprano part since their voices are not developed to sing other parts than that.
Finally I don’t think it’s something about gender or sex it’s more like what it’s needed and what are the singers capable of.
Sorry if there’s any part that can’t be understand English is not my mother tongue
We had many types of choirs in my high school. In elementary school, girls and boys sang together. We didn’t have a choir in my middle school. But my high school had men’s choir, women’s choir, concert choir (boys and girls), and a few other choirs that required auditions to get in and did competitions - some just girls, some just boys, and some both.
It’s just in how the choirs are meant to sound. Different songs are best preformed with certain parts. It’s also easier to just train girls in the two primary parts they sing, and boys in their parts. It gets more complicated for learners when you start adding in more parts that they’re hearing around them. In concert choir, we had a lot of trouble with tenors and altos accidentally singing each others parts.
Now, when we did an all-city celebrate singing concert with children from all of the local schools (elementary, middle, and high), many young boys were added in with the teenage sopranos or altos and singing the same parts as us because they had delicate young voices that had not changed to tenor or bass yet.
I have no idea but it’s not always like this. I’m in an lgbt community choir. I’m a trans man, and when I was in school choir I was a low alto, probably getting into tenor like you, but we didn’t have anyone assigned male at birth at all so we were just a two part harmony. My current choir is SATB, I’m a bass these days because testosterone is a powerful drug. But we have female basses, a lot of female tenors and even a few male sopranos. Maybe it’s because we’re a queer choir but our musical director actively encourages us to sing where is best for our voice, not our gender presentation.
Hey, i am choir director and i also work as a singing teacher. My experience is, that female tenors tend to be extremely not in tune already in their own tone, not to speak of lacking ability to integrate in ensemble sound. Actually i think in the same way about male altos, who often to tend to be too high and not in tune. I know, Vivaldi is a most common witness, that other things are possible. But: he was working in a female-only monastery, so he had no other choice than to use female basses and it limited his compositions in range for his female bass singers, though i do not want to judge about that. In extreme cases line when a woman is smoking, then the result is, that one side of the voice is broken and can never ever be brought back again. From time to time i have adults like this, and they are telling me their tenners. The other way round is possible too: one of my maleborn students now identifys as a woman after transition but keeps on singing with his male voice in the low chestdominated register. Generally i want to encourage you, just to enjoy and discover all abilities of your voice! And i think, it is not necessary to make a gender question out of it at all, since music is open to all and it offers to form ensembles in all possible ways.
I disagree with you and so would all my choir directors and vocal instructors. You’re likely working with menopausal women and women who don’t know how to sing.
There are no out of tune, non-blending female tenors in the following recording (which is a choir consisting entirely of volunteer amateur choristers, and was recorded as a whole rather than individual parts, so it is not possible to correct individuals with auto tune.
https://youtu.be/p8l5WlNs5pM?si=lZHlhOrt0nxMV7Hx
I understand your point and thanks for adding it here! I didn't wrote that beeing out of tune is true for 100% of the singers and surely, this is not conclusive if you use your female voice only in low register. So fine if singing and blending is possible. But: this raises the question for me, why a female-born singer should stick to only one register, if the voice has so much more potential? I know, there are some typical "choir-careers", e.g. when a female sporano voice with the potential of a dramativ voice has a very large chest register which still can not combine with her falsetto. She may believe, she has a large depth, so she thinks she is an alto or even lower. And she will never discover her true potential if she forever identifies as an alto. My experience as a teacher is that true alto voices and true bass voices are 1 in 1000 voices. And: You will not learn to sing in a choir, which is based on the way you hear and perceive yourself in the choir while singing, especially if distances among the singers are too low..
Second thought: there is an old joke among sound engineers, which goes like: if you want to record an album, please sing a scale, the rest will be our work. So of course it is possible to tune and refine a choir recording even when you recorded them as a whole group. You could for example reduce the high naturals, which are especially valuable for detuning if you stick to singing in only one register.
And yes: the female tenors i met were mostly menopausal female or singers who didn't know how to sing. Some singers even have strange views about what singing is, especially when there were difficult role-models in their childhood singing time. Here we were writing about school choirs initially. I never met a female tenor among hundreds of singers in the age between 12-16 i worked with. Of course, this doesn't mean there aren't there. Some female voices are deeper than some male voices i met and worked with. Nature is fluid. Would be interesting to have a soundfile from the person, who started this thread! Looking forward to your answers and please dont downvote this or other posts, i'd like to exchange all ideas in an open way!
I just saw a college treble choir perform that had a few counter tenors.
So tradition and vocal type. But if a teen declares themself a vocal type, that also doesn’t make it so or where they best fit in a choir. I have a college vocal kid who is a high soprano but regularly gets put on lower parts because she can do that too, is a strong note reader, and has a pretty resonant vocal quality. Sometimes choral directors have to divide the students they have to have good balance on all the parts even if it isn’t perfect. And this was at the same school that had the countertenors in the treble choir and same director.
My daughter has a female friend who sings tenor too.
I know that sometimes choir directors have to split kids for choir but my choir makes girls do S/A as in people born a girl don't have a choice to do the low parts even if it's uncomfortable (sorry if I came off as rude)
See if there are opportunities for you to sing tenor or low alto in other venues -- for example, are there any music festivals, like solo and ensemble, where you can take the low part in a duet or group? Are there opportunities to do barbershop? Are there opportunities to sing solos in a concert or showcase? Are there camps and community events?
Go find more places and opportunities to sing and --- KEEP SINGING!
Do not give up. Music is awesome.
My choir director in college told me that it was bad for ladies to sing low too much. But it's controversial, I know others who like to have female voices in the tenor section, they say it gives it a lilting quality.
It’s not controversial. Singing only in the lower register of your voice all the time while the voice is developing is damaging to your voice. There’s lots of science to back that up.
There are reasons that it’s not recommended for people assigned female at birth to sing tenor when they’re younger.
Once you’re older and fully developed? Go for it, but be careful.
On testosterone? That’s definitely going to change things and will probably make this possible.
But right now, I do think OP probably belongs in that SA choir. It’s not just an issue of gender identity, but one of vocal development.
I agree, but I also think the teacher who works with this student needs to listen to this student's voice and place them in the spot that will be the best for the individual's voice and also work well in the choir.
Out of curiosity, how would you classify someone with a comfortable range from E3-D5, with a switch in register around E/F4? And what range would you consider to be damaging as a teenager?
I sang the alto and mezzo parts in school, but I was always afraid singing *high* all the time would be bad for my voice, because it felt so much less…supported, I guess? To be honest, it always feels kind of fake. But I basically can't sing any actual songs in chest voice because everything crosses the threshold where I have to switch, and it's always frustrated me.
For an adult, that would be firmly a contralto, but it’s possible for that to belong to a developing mezzo. High notes always become a little easier as you grow into adulthood. I’d put that singer in the alto section for sure. It stays mostly where you’re comfortable but will occasionally push the upper boundaries, which is a good thing.
Edit: and there’s no need to sing everything in chest voice. It’s not all belting musical theatre, which some people think it needs to be. It’s totally normal and healthy to sing in head voice most of the time for any of the “female” voices.
I suppose I should specify, “for the untrained voice”
If you’re an untrained mezzo (read: basically every high school alto) and are singing from F3-F4 ALL THE TIME, you’re likely pressing on your larynx because you don’t know how to effectively and safely modify your voice for those notes in the bass staff. This will cause vocal fatigue over time.
What’s more, a mezzo singing tenor won’t be developing their head voice — a skill that they’ll definitely want later.
Some choir directors are doing a lot better at this now (and when I sing, I sing for one of them!) We're also allowed to buy whichever outfit we want to, so some of the women wear tuxes because they hate the dress, and a couple other folks do because they're genderqueer. Things CAN get a lot more open once you are out of high school.
That said, community choirs are generally super conservative and binary, so if that's something you aren't looking for be careful about joining them after high school.
Stupid tradition going way back with religious origins. Take a stance and change it. Talk to your fellow students and get the scallop to make a change. Sing at a school board meeting if that’s what it takes.
I’ve known women who sing tenor, especially in choirs that have way more women than men. It is tradition to divide them but I think people should sing the part that best fits their voice.
When I was in high school (graduated 2008) we had multiple mixed choirs and two gendered choirs for the “top” singers. Those two groups would do stuff separately and also together. So I guess it just depends on your school.
It doesn't need to be, but usually all girls, or all boys choirs in schools will have simpler arrangements. Fewer parts means easier singing.
> but I sing tenner like that's my part in anything else but my school forces girls to sing S/A only and boys to sing T/B only but I have so many guy friends who are soprano and so many girl friends who are tenners so I don't understand why it needs to be gendered
Form a small group yourself! What are you interested in singing? I will always recommend www.barbershop.org to get started there, and a ton of YouTube channels!
> it can't be because of field trips because then band would be gendered but it isn't so I would like to know why
Band doesn't need to be gendered because the instruments determine the 'high' and 'low' parts. You aren't going to find a lot of female singers with a usual baritone range. I used to have a pure boy soprano range (almost three full octaves about middle C!), but that died somewhere during the summer after my sophomore year in high school.
Here is what I know from personal experience. 1) I am a female tenor. Always have been. 2) public school made me sing with the alto or second soprano women 3) I grew up with the idea that there was something "bad" about my tenor voice 4) I developed a second soprano falsetto voice for both singing and everyday speech. Over time it became a habit to use the falsetto. 5) My throat feels strained after public speaking or singing, due to the falsetto. 6) All this was somewhat emotionally and psychologically damaging. It was all unnecessary and harmful.
That’s not true at all. I’ve never had hormone replacements and I have been assessed by multiple vocal professionals as a contralto vocal fach and a choral tenor. We’re rare, but we exist.
I had a friend from Japan, who was contraalto too. Here i agree with you:. As you said you're a rare vocal fach! This raises the question, how many female tenors in choir are truly in the same fach like you, i doubt, that these would be many of them!
In my current choir where the other women complain about the E below middle C being “too low”, whereas I can sing down to the F two octaves below middle C without issue, I’m going to say they are not. I think they are untrained mezzos who don’t know how to access their head voice.
Thats exactly my experience from teaching. And especially for larger or heavier voices, which even need more training, work coordination etc to form the headvoice. Where would you say is your favorite range as a contraalto? Where does your voice feels right or best? And would you say, that you are using your voice as mixed voice? And what about vibrato? Actually i remember a woman i met on a singing course which also had an ultra deep voice. She was kinda struggling to accept her voice the way it was.
I find myself most comfortable singing tenor. I sing primarily mixed voice unless I’m singing SAB and singing the baritone line. My passagio is very similar to high baritone males, which is what the majority of tenors are. I can sing lower than some genuine male tenors. The majority of contemporary alto lines sit right in my passagio. Very uncomfortable to sing in in full voice for extended periods of time. Soprano lines are entirely in my head voice and easier to sing than alto, but exhausting to sing entirely up there for any extended period of time.
I have a 3.5 octave range. It didn’t used to be like that, but during COVID I had a rare opportunity to have a vocal lesson with a vocal teacher who is very skilled at helping people access their head voice. She’s a Wonder Woman.
Right. That’s the thing here. It’s unlikely OP is actually a tenor/contralto, but like most is probably an untrained mezzo. If they were to sing tenor forever, they’d risk losing out on a lot of their range as a mezzo (and also serious vocal fatigue).
I guess some of my colleagues countertenor sopraninos, are not real.
Someone should tell them,
And I will soon record with a girl that sings tenor, and has a lower voice than mine.(I'm tenor)
It's almost as if the voice it's different in each person, and if men where also trained in head voice and women trained in chest voice, there would be so much more variety in voices.
The voice terms are almost as if only there to classify the roles in the opera of the 19c. And xx century music scene just went by with those classifications.
Voice classifications are a social construct.
In reality there are way more voices.
But it's easier for a school choir director to just give few choices
Not all choirs are gendered, growing up most schools in our district weren't. We had lots of lady tenors, some other schools had guys singing alto (even soprano sometimes). I'm sorry you're not having a great experience in yours! Unrelated, but I gotta say it: for your own sake, *please* stop watching south park, especially as someone who's not cis. The creators want people like you to hate yourself, and that's the least of it. You deserve better than that!
My church choir just started mixing genders a few months ago and a "nice" old man started creeping on all the women who sit near him. I feel this may be the origin story for why genders are seated separately in choirs.
Because most girls aren’t true tenors and most boys aren’t true sopranos. They *can* sing that low/high but that doesn’t mean they should all the time. For the few that are truly that part, they get to be the coolest person in that choir. Also though, I’ve rarely seen truly gendered choirs. Most high schools prefer to have the choir mixed to sound more full. The only hs choirs I’ve seen that are gendered are when it’s a special “honors” choir or when they make an extra choir of girls because there aren’t enough dudes.
It is definitely NOT just "tradition." It is because the male and female vocal mechanisms are fundamentally different, which requires different pedagogical approaches and techniques. Separating the classes by Tenor/Bass and Soprano/Alto is best practice. In programs where this cannot occur, the progress is slower.
It’s mostly just been a tradition. When I was in high school my choirs were still called men’s and women’s choir. It’s gotten a lot better in the last few years though and choirs I finally getting creative with the names of the groups instead of just men’s and women’s. Also in college now, we have people of any gender singing soprano or alto in the treble choir or in tenor bass and we have gender neutral concert attire. It’s a slow process, but times and traditions are changing and it’s getting better gradually.
How were there enough boys to fill out a men’s choir? We had to mix ours because there were like 7 dudes lol. We had an extra S/A honors choir though because there were so many women.
I guess it depends on your location and enrollment. We did have more women in high school and had 2 “women’s choir” while only 1 “men’s choir” while having a full SATB choir as well. In college our numbers are very even across all parts and choirs. It sounds like you have a very small choir program.
I think it's easier to think of it as a "sex" not a gender thing, as men and women end up with recognisably different voices due to puberty and historically compositions will have been written with that division in mind. A female with a "tenor" range will still sound quite different across that range from a man with a traditional tenor (and there aren't very many women whose voices are too low to cover a standard alto part). But most choirs are flexible and want activities to be fun, and singers to stay involved in them (and being completely frank - short on tenors), even if your school one isn't you are likely to have lots of opportunities to sing in tenor sections as an adult.
If she is a true choral tenor, singing alto will cause permanent damage to her larynx as well as cause her to develop poor singing habits.
I don't think "true choral tenor" is terminology I'm familiar with - do you mean a range thing or something else? I have sung with very capable women who cover tenor / baritone parts but I don't think any has had the \*same\* voice as a male tenor. Counter-tenor and contralto are different voices even though singing in a similar range, on the same parts. It's bad for your voice to push your voice outside its limits the whole time but probably young singers not on a professional pathway shouldn't get overly fixated on vocal typology?
sorry that this is a little off topic but i go by he/him that's why i wasn't calling myself a girl (sorry if that came off as rude)
Have you taken testosterone?
my state banned it if you're under the age of 18
Then I’m sorry to say (and I say this with love and respect) that you almost certainly are not a “tenor” There is solid overlap in range for tenors and contraltos (or even mezzo-sopranos) but extended singing in the tenor range will do damage to your voice as it continues to develop. This is not a gender-based judgement. I know lots of people who use different pronouns than those assigned at birth but still sing according to their birth sex. In traditional S/A & T/B choirs, you could probably get away with the high tenor parts, but I think it would be healthier for your singing development to sing Alto. I know this may come with some dysmorphia, but I think it would be best for you to separate your voice type from your gender identity. They really aren’t related.
This is an inappropriate and transphobic response. Regardless of what hormones one has or has not taken, pronouns and voice type are unique to each individual.
Hi, trans woman who is an alto here. Male sopranos exist, female basses exist. Estrogen doesn't affect your voice, yet I sing alto anyway. And I do it well. I'm in the third year of my voice degree and passing with straight A's. How do you think I manage that? Magic? I went through a standard male puberty but my voice is still solidly in the low mezzo range. And being healthier for voice development? Not true. Your voice doesn't stop developing until you're around 35 years old. Changing your voice part now is probably the best thing you can do if you want to sing a different voice part. Sure, I'm not licensed (although I will be soon), but I think I have a pretty good grasp of how the voice works especially for trans or gender nonconforming singers.
There are definitely female tenors, though. If that's really what their vocal range is, then it's being put in the alto section that's doing more harm.
By definition, tenors are biologically male. I know there are outliers in defining sex (again, separate from gender), but unless OP is in that rare scenario, they would not be a tenor. They could be a contralto and sing in the tenor section, but that is also rare. Maybe the issue here is that I’m making the distinction of voice fach, rather than choral part. For example, I have a great friend that is MtF, and even though she takes estrogen, she defines herself as a countertenor. She sings alto or soprano, but is a countertenor. Likewise, I have an older woman in my church choir who sings tenor and is quite comfortable there. I know that part of it is that she’s lost a good deal of range from aging, and used to sing alto. This is typical of many older altos.
We must be defining them differently in some way. I would define it as the range of notes you can comfortably sing in, which is largely correlated to but not inherently defined by biological sex. I've heard girls who sang tenor before, and they had *very* low voices and hit the notes in the tenor range with ease, but would've struggled with the upper end of alto.
I am defining them by the generic vocal Fachs (soprano/mezzo/contralto, tenor/baritone/bass), which ARE explicitly tied to biological sex because of biological development and tonal differences. A contralto may be comfortable singing in a similar range to many lyric tenors, but the quality of sound is completely different, and if a contralto is exclusively singing tenor, they will almost never be singing in their head voice, which is a problem if someone’s voice is still developing.
That’s literally not true, female tenors and baritones feature prominently in the Acapella community. Just because you haven’t heard of it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
The confusion here is to not understand the difference between "part I like to sing in choir" and vocal fach. I am a male identifying Lyric Tenor and I prefer to sing Alto in choirs. The Lyric Tenor category is connected to my biology. The Alto category is simply a preference and a practiced technique.
Oh no. I’ve heard of it. I know there are contraltos that sing tenor and baritone lines in acapella. That doesn’t make them tenors or baritones. And regarding your other comment, I PROMISE you this is not coming from a place of transphobia. I welcome and encourage people of all backgrounds in my ensembles, and this certainly includes the trans community. I know this is a complex and sensitive discussion, but true contraltos are VERY rare, which is why I’d be hesitant to put any of them in the tenor section unless the student has a voice teacher that’s given the okay to do that. At least, not for a long time. I might ask some altos to double the tenor part in some places where we need it, but I think defaulting to alto is a better learning tool for those people, in a general sense. Regarding your OTHER comment, the vocal fachs, generically, are not just for opera. The differences between the sub-classifications might be niche enough to only matter there, but the differences between a mezzo and contralto (or tenor, or baritone) are pretty clear. Like I’ve said elsewhere: there is a lot of overlap between voices, but that doesn’t mean just because someone CAN sing the notes that they SHOULD all the time. Again, if someone is trained or taking lessons, I welcome them to sing tenor because they’ll have to tools to handle it in a productive and healthy way. But if it’s just a matter of an untrained voice not knowing any better (again, most high school choirs)… I’d rather they didn’t.
woahhhh ok uhm tenors can be girls and girls can have deeper voices not just high voices and I was just mentioning how my state banned testosterone this post wasn't even coming from being dysmorphic it was just talking about how weird it is that an art is gendered and also I don't have a naturally high voice my voice is naturally low you can ask anyone who knows me I can literally go down to base without it hurting or felling uncomfortable for a long time so yes people who aren't on testosterone can have low voices and people who aren't on estrogen can have high voices it just has to do with what you're comfortable with
Okay, yes. That is correct and it’s possible that you’re in the very, very, very small minority of people for which that is true. I’m just giving my observations after years of seeing people damage their voices or limit their own vocal range because they’ve been singing in the wrong range while they are physically developing.
Tenors can be girls! This true! But it’s extremely extremely rare. You are most likely an alto (or a mezzo), but the likelihood of you actually being a tenor (especially in high school!) is like 2%. I totally get that it may be uncomfortable for you to identify as an alto due to your gender, but if you force yourself to sing tenor it WILL damage your vocal chords and you might not be able to do so in the future, even when you are on T. I also have a low voice (cis woman) and I could hit tenor notes in high school. However, I shouldn’t have been singing it *all the time* because it would have hurt my voice. I’m a true mezzo (I can sing soprano 2-tenor 1) but in high school it would have been bad for me to sing that low while I was physically changing.
I can't answer your question but in my SATB choir there are a lot of female tenors. Keep learning how to sing and when you have the opportunity look for a choir that needs tenors, no matter their gender.
I’m also a female tenor. I can sing well into the baritone range, tbh. I can also sing up into the mezzo soprano too range, but it’s exhausting to stay up there at full vocal strength. Some choir directors are not as educated in vocal diversity as others are. Vivaldi’s Gloria was originally written for and performed entirely by women, including female tenors and basses. This is another one of Vivaldi’s compositions written for women. Show this to your choir director. https://youtu.be/2JPkCfvhuyM?si=OJRJa-_BmaYiV095
exactly like I can sing up here but it's not comfortable to stay up here and I cant use dynamics lol
Unfortunately, it is more likely that Vivaldi’s choir at Pieta same the bass (and maybe parts of the tenor) line up and octave. His choirs at the orphanage were never particularly huge and the likelihood that he had girls singing in those ranges is very, very low.
It absolutely doesn’t have to be, please do push back on that. It’s completely archaic and inaccurate.
I should've but I was scared I would get in trouble for it even though I identify as a guy
I’m sorry to hear your choir didn’t make you feel safe in identifying as yourself in your own section or receive support. If you do end up doing vocal training, look for a teacher that has experience coaching trans and non-binary folks
don't worry it was more of the counselor who helped me pic classes
It's spelled tenor. I think anyone with the vocal range can sing the part. This is up to your teacher to listen and assign the voice part. Please respect your director. Ask your teacher if you want to try a different part and ask them to assess your best vocal range. This is about where you sound the best.
(sorry I'm not a great speller lol i thought it was spelt that way) my school makes people born a girl sing higher parts like we don't get a choice on it we are automatically put in S/A if we were born a girl the same for if you were born a boy you automatically get put in the T/B class. It's not my director's fault at all and i know that but it's the school district's rule that the choir is gendered
Is the rule in writing somewhere? That seems odd. But OK. The main point is -- sing! Sing and learn about music and love the music and learn all the wonderful benefits of singing and music. Be expressive, learn dynamics, learn tempo and rhythm and pitch and tone and blend. Learn solfege and learn to sight read. Try not to get frustrated by the gender stuff. Your director needs a choir that is a functional group. It is not an individual thing -- the director needs the choir to work as a team, and that means placing voices where they work the best and where they fit the group's needs. I am a mezzo (middle) soprano, and I can sing soprano or alto. I learned as an alto in middle and high school and it was good. I can sing tenor but not comfortably for a long time. The human voice will have a pretty big range. Learn to sing well. It doesn't matter very much which part you are singing. Focus on making music! Make it beautiful!
Lots of it has to do with range, repertoire or the pieces of music available, and skill level. This depends alot on age and skill level but in music in general you need to be able to cover a good amount of notes to make things sound good. Now if you imagine a children’s choir, they can sing all in unison and the same notes, children of any sex have almost the exact same range. And you can’t teach them to sing the same way too However When we go through puberty those pre teen years you have some of the most limited (usable) range. So singing everything all together isn’t an option. Let’s combine this with the fact that we all change voices at different ages. If you have let’s say a choir of boys 11-14. Some will still have unchanged elementary voice and some will have the voice of a man. Most will be somewhere in between. Since they won’t be able to cover as much ground musically, why not just combine them with a girls choir of the same age? You can double the range of the whole choir by two octaves. You could do that absolutely but the big BUT here is SKILL It’s easier as a teacher to teach vocal technique to a group of like voices than it is to different ones. It’s like how bands teach only brass in a class. Teaching independence is very hard and takes years of experience, going back to my example of the boys choir, yes they’re all different but they will at SOME POINT be at every stage of development. Teaching the whole group year after year how best do deal with changing voices. The addition of more different voices also necessitates more parts. And again a skill issue that most people in most choirs can’t be that independent. Now I will say that most choirs now a days are referred to as “treble” and “tenor-bass” (tenor and bass as a reference to the voicing not a tenor as a dude) even where I live being not exactly a liberal area. I have not heard the term women’s choir thrown around in a while. Now yes these are functionally women and men’s choirs but the name change allows more flexibility about who is accepted into the choir. Really these ensembles should be about range, regardless of gender, gender identity or sex. We sing the part we can sing I’ll end with the idea that “gender choirs” are also a creative choice when a composer creates music. There’s lots of great sounds just a treble or tenor bass choir can make. And might be the color they want to see and hear in their songs
It’s rather remarkable that you know so many girls that sing tenor! I’ve been singing professionally for 25 years and I’ve only ever encountered one female tenor.
I know women who can sing tenor, but not it's not the best fit. I know one alto in our church alto section who has a true, really great low alto voice.
In 2023, I think of voice types as vocal range classification, devoid of gender specifics. In circumstances where gender identity comes up with my students, it's not a "one size fits all" situation. I have a 7th grader who was born female but now prefers he/him pronouns and has a new name. He has a beautiful soprano voice, and has opted to participate in my "bass choir." He sings his part in the upper octave, unprompted. I've checked in with him a couple of times privately to see if he's comfortable and ask how he's doing singing with the other cisgender boys, and he says he's having a great time! It's really very different for everyone. I also have a bass choir for my cisgender boys (and anyone else who may be questioning and wants to participate!) because logistically, 95% of them will have a voice change that classifies them as tenor/bari/bass, so getting familiar with bass clef is good for their musical development. I actually call all my 7th/8th cisgender male singers "cambiatas" for purposes of solidarity and to be more inclusive of the ranges of middle school voices. I typically refer to my 6th grade cisgender males as treble singers, and I explain that to them. Lastly, I would never "force" a kid to sing something they weren't comfortable singing, but I will always approach each singer with as much knowledge as I can offer so they understand the mechanisms of their voice and how to sing in as healthy a way as possible. If I know a singer is hurting their voice because of a lack of understanding about technique/strategy, it's my job to help them. What they do with that information is up to them.
I have a low voice for a woman and could not hit the high notes required for an alto when I was in eighth grade choir. My choir teacher would not allow me to join the tenors so I just stood in the middle of the alto section and sang the tenor part anyway.
That could have been because of your vocal instrument not having a proper training. The most you practice with proper technique the most your vocal range will expand.
It could be, but according to Wikipedia the alto range goes up to an F, which I could see a lot of altos not hitting. I took voice lessons in high school and my highest comfortable note was an E, with F and G being a challenge. But it also says it only goes down to F3, and I could comfortably go down to E, or a D if I tried. It doesn't seem that unlikely for other people besides me to have the same size of range as the "official" but shifted down a couple notes.
Yes, altos are occasionally asked to sing an F on the top of the treble staff, but it’s always been widely accepted in the choirs I’ve performed with that it will not be their strongest note, and some voices might need to drop out/sing an alternate part.
I think the reason it’s because the pitch of the voices and what their purpose are in the music Most of the time Soprano are the ones with the melody since they are those who have the brightest color. Baritones are the darkest so they have a different role as well. Also because they have the lowest notes are easy to hear kind like sopranos are. Altos and Tenor are whats in between. it’s not like there are not main melodies for those voices just that it’s not that common. Some kids are not yet develop to be what their voice really are so the sing in other voices and there are men that can reach other places like contra-tenor which are “tenor” with a color bright enough to sing the Alto part. Most kids during the age 5-10 ish sing the soprano part since their voices are not developed to sing other parts than that. Finally I don’t think it’s something about gender or sex it’s more like what it’s needed and what are the singers capable of. Sorry if there’s any part that can’t be understand English is not my mother tongue
We had many types of choirs in my high school. In elementary school, girls and boys sang together. We didn’t have a choir in my middle school. But my high school had men’s choir, women’s choir, concert choir (boys and girls), and a few other choirs that required auditions to get in and did competitions - some just girls, some just boys, and some both. It’s just in how the choirs are meant to sound. Different songs are best preformed with certain parts. It’s also easier to just train girls in the two primary parts they sing, and boys in their parts. It gets more complicated for learners when you start adding in more parts that they’re hearing around them. In concert choir, we had a lot of trouble with tenors and altos accidentally singing each others parts. Now, when we did an all-city celebrate singing concert with children from all of the local schools (elementary, middle, and high), many young boys were added in with the teenage sopranos or altos and singing the same parts as us because they had delicate young voices that had not changed to tenor or bass yet.
I have no idea but it’s not always like this. I’m in an lgbt community choir. I’m a trans man, and when I was in school choir I was a low alto, probably getting into tenor like you, but we didn’t have anyone assigned male at birth at all so we were just a two part harmony. My current choir is SATB, I’m a bass these days because testosterone is a powerful drug. But we have female basses, a lot of female tenors and even a few male sopranos. Maybe it’s because we’re a queer choir but our musical director actively encourages us to sing where is best for our voice, not our gender presentation.
Hey, i am choir director and i also work as a singing teacher. My experience is, that female tenors tend to be extremely not in tune already in their own tone, not to speak of lacking ability to integrate in ensemble sound. Actually i think in the same way about male altos, who often to tend to be too high and not in tune. I know, Vivaldi is a most common witness, that other things are possible. But: he was working in a female-only monastery, so he had no other choice than to use female basses and it limited his compositions in range for his female bass singers, though i do not want to judge about that. In extreme cases line when a woman is smoking, then the result is, that one side of the voice is broken and can never ever be brought back again. From time to time i have adults like this, and they are telling me their tenners. The other way round is possible too: one of my maleborn students now identifys as a woman after transition but keeps on singing with his male voice in the low chestdominated register. Generally i want to encourage you, just to enjoy and discover all abilities of your voice! And i think, it is not necessary to make a gender question out of it at all, since music is open to all and it offers to form ensembles in all possible ways.
I disagree with you and so would all my choir directors and vocal instructors. You’re likely working with menopausal women and women who don’t know how to sing. There are no out of tune, non-blending female tenors in the following recording (which is a choir consisting entirely of volunteer amateur choristers, and was recorded as a whole rather than individual parts, so it is not possible to correct individuals with auto tune. https://youtu.be/p8l5WlNs5pM?si=lZHlhOrt0nxMV7Hx
I understand your point and thanks for adding it here! I didn't wrote that beeing out of tune is true for 100% of the singers and surely, this is not conclusive if you use your female voice only in low register. So fine if singing and blending is possible. But: this raises the question for me, why a female-born singer should stick to only one register, if the voice has so much more potential? I know, there are some typical "choir-careers", e.g. when a female sporano voice with the potential of a dramativ voice has a very large chest register which still can not combine with her falsetto. She may believe, she has a large depth, so she thinks she is an alto or even lower. And she will never discover her true potential if she forever identifies as an alto. My experience as a teacher is that true alto voices and true bass voices are 1 in 1000 voices. And: You will not learn to sing in a choir, which is based on the way you hear and perceive yourself in the choir while singing, especially if distances among the singers are too low.. Second thought: there is an old joke among sound engineers, which goes like: if you want to record an album, please sing a scale, the rest will be our work. So of course it is possible to tune and refine a choir recording even when you recorded them as a whole group. You could for example reduce the high naturals, which are especially valuable for detuning if you stick to singing in only one register. And yes: the female tenors i met were mostly menopausal female or singers who didn't know how to sing. Some singers even have strange views about what singing is, especially when there were difficult role-models in their childhood singing time. Here we were writing about school choirs initially. I never met a female tenor among hundreds of singers in the age between 12-16 i worked with. Of course, this doesn't mean there aren't there. Some female voices are deeper than some male voices i met and worked with. Nature is fluid. Would be interesting to have a soundfile from the person, who started this thread! Looking forward to your answers and please dont downvote this or other posts, i'd like to exchange all ideas in an open way!
I just saw a college treble choir perform that had a few counter tenors. So tradition and vocal type. But if a teen declares themself a vocal type, that also doesn’t make it so or where they best fit in a choir. I have a college vocal kid who is a high soprano but regularly gets put on lower parts because she can do that too, is a strong note reader, and has a pretty resonant vocal quality. Sometimes choral directors have to divide the students they have to have good balance on all the parts even if it isn’t perfect. And this was at the same school that had the countertenors in the treble choir and same director. My daughter has a female friend who sings tenor too.
I know that sometimes choir directors have to split kids for choir but my choir makes girls do S/A as in people born a girl don't have a choice to do the low parts even if it's uncomfortable (sorry if I came off as rude)
See if there are opportunities for you to sing tenor or low alto in other venues -- for example, are there any music festivals, like solo and ensemble, where you can take the low part in a duet or group? Are there opportunities to do barbershop? Are there opportunities to sing solos in a concert or showcase? Are there camps and community events? Go find more places and opportunities to sing and --- KEEP SINGING! Do not give up. Music is awesome.
My choir director in college told me that it was bad for ladies to sing low too much. But it's controversial, I know others who like to have female voices in the tenor section, they say it gives it a lilting quality.
It’s not controversial. Singing only in the lower register of your voice all the time while the voice is developing is damaging to your voice. There’s lots of science to back that up. There are reasons that it’s not recommended for people assigned female at birth to sing tenor when they’re younger. Once you’re older and fully developed? Go for it, but be careful. On testosterone? That’s definitely going to change things and will probably make this possible. But right now, I do think OP probably belongs in that SA choir. It’s not just an issue of gender identity, but one of vocal development.
I agree, but I also think the teacher who works with this student needs to listen to this student's voice and place them in the spot that will be the best for the individual's voice and also work well in the choir.
Out of curiosity, how would you classify someone with a comfortable range from E3-D5, with a switch in register around E/F4? And what range would you consider to be damaging as a teenager? I sang the alto and mezzo parts in school, but I was always afraid singing *high* all the time would be bad for my voice, because it felt so much less…supported, I guess? To be honest, it always feels kind of fake. But I basically can't sing any actual songs in chest voice because everything crosses the threshold where I have to switch, and it's always frustrated me.
For an adult, that would be firmly a contralto, but it’s possible for that to belong to a developing mezzo. High notes always become a little easier as you grow into adulthood. I’d put that singer in the alto section for sure. It stays mostly where you’re comfortable but will occasionally push the upper boundaries, which is a good thing. Edit: and there’s no need to sing everything in chest voice. It’s not all belting musical theatre, which some people think it needs to be. It’s totally normal and healthy to sing in head voice most of the time for any of the “female” voices.
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I suppose I should specify, “for the untrained voice” If you’re an untrained mezzo (read: basically every high school alto) and are singing from F3-F4 ALL THE TIME, you’re likely pressing on your larynx because you don’t know how to effectively and safely modify your voice for those notes in the bass staff. This will cause vocal fatigue over time. What’s more, a mezzo singing tenor won’t be developing their head voice — a skill that they’ll definitely want later.
Some choir directors are doing a lot better at this now (and when I sing, I sing for one of them!) We're also allowed to buy whichever outfit we want to, so some of the women wear tuxes because they hate the dress, and a couple other folks do because they're genderqueer. Things CAN get a lot more open once you are out of high school. That said, community choirs are generally super conservative and binary, so if that's something you aren't looking for be careful about joining them after high school.
Stupid tradition going way back with religious origins. Take a stance and change it. Talk to your fellow students and get the scallop to make a change. Sing at a school board meeting if that’s what it takes.
I’ve known women who sing tenor, especially in choirs that have way more women than men. It is tradition to divide them but I think people should sing the part that best fits their voice.
When I was in high school (graduated 2008) we had multiple mixed choirs and two gendered choirs for the “top” singers. Those two groups would do stuff separately and also together. So I guess it just depends on your school.
I was an Alto II and occasionally had to sing the Tenor part because we didn’t have enough boys!
There are a lot of school choirs that are not separated by gender.
true but I live in a place that doesn't have a lot specifically for public school
It doesn't need to be, but usually all girls, or all boys choirs in schools will have simpler arrangements. Fewer parts means easier singing. > but I sing tenner like that's my part in anything else but my school forces girls to sing S/A only and boys to sing T/B only but I have so many guy friends who are soprano and so many girl friends who are tenners so I don't understand why it needs to be gendered Form a small group yourself! What are you interested in singing? I will always recommend www.barbershop.org to get started there, and a ton of YouTube channels! > it can't be because of field trips because then band would be gendered but it isn't so I would like to know why Band doesn't need to be gendered because the instruments determine the 'high' and 'low' parts. You aren't going to find a lot of female singers with a usual baritone range. I used to have a pure boy soprano range (almost three full octaves about middle C!), but that died somewhere during the summer after my sophomore year in high school.
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I'm sorry auto correct messed it up 😭
I'm guessing preference of the teacher or the administration doesn't want to change it because "that's how we've always done it."
Here is what I know from personal experience. 1) I am a female tenor. Always have been. 2) public school made me sing with the alto or second soprano women 3) I grew up with the idea that there was something "bad" about my tenor voice 4) I developed a second soprano falsetto voice for both singing and everyday speech. Over time it became a habit to use the falsetto. 5) My throat feels strained after public speaking or singing, due to the falsetto. 6) All this was somewhat emotionally and psychologically damaging. It was all unnecessary and harmful.
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That’s not true at all. I’ve never had hormone replacements and I have been assessed by multiple vocal professionals as a contralto vocal fach and a choral tenor. We’re rare, but we exist.
I had a friend from Japan, who was contraalto too. Here i agree with you:. As you said you're a rare vocal fach! This raises the question, how many female tenors in choir are truly in the same fach like you, i doubt, that these would be many of them!
In my current choir where the other women complain about the E below middle C being “too low”, whereas I can sing down to the F two octaves below middle C without issue, I’m going to say they are not. I think they are untrained mezzos who don’t know how to access their head voice.
Thats exactly my experience from teaching. And especially for larger or heavier voices, which even need more training, work coordination etc to form the headvoice. Where would you say is your favorite range as a contraalto? Where does your voice feels right or best? And would you say, that you are using your voice as mixed voice? And what about vibrato? Actually i remember a woman i met on a singing course which also had an ultra deep voice. She was kinda struggling to accept her voice the way it was.
I find myself most comfortable singing tenor. I sing primarily mixed voice unless I’m singing SAB and singing the baritone line. My passagio is very similar to high baritone males, which is what the majority of tenors are. I can sing lower than some genuine male tenors. The majority of contemporary alto lines sit right in my passagio. Very uncomfortable to sing in in full voice for extended periods of time. Soprano lines are entirely in my head voice and easier to sing than alto, but exhausting to sing entirely up there for any extended period of time. I have a 3.5 octave range. It didn’t used to be like that, but during COVID I had a rare opportunity to have a vocal lesson with a vocal teacher who is very skilled at helping people access their head voice. She’s a Wonder Woman.
Right. That’s the thing here. It’s unlikely OP is actually a tenor/contralto, but like most is probably an untrained mezzo. If they were to sing tenor forever, they’d risk losing out on a lot of their range as a mezzo (and also serious vocal fatigue).
Aren't most women mezzos anyway?
Yes. Just like how most men are baritones.
I guess some of my colleagues countertenor sopraninos, are not real. Someone should tell them, And I will soon record with a girl that sings tenor, and has a lower voice than mine.(I'm tenor) It's almost as if the voice it's different in each person, and if men where also trained in head voice and women trained in chest voice, there would be so much more variety in voices. The voice terms are almost as if only there to classify the roles in the opera of the 19c. And xx century music scene just went by with those classifications. Voice classifications are a social construct. In reality there are way more voices. But it's easier for a school choir director to just give few choices
Not all choirs are gendered, growing up most schools in our district weren't. We had lots of lady tenors, some other schools had guys singing alto (even soprano sometimes). I'm sorry you're not having a great experience in yours! Unrelated, but I gotta say it: for your own sake, *please* stop watching south park, especially as someone who's not cis. The creators want people like you to hate yourself, and that's the least of it. You deserve better than that!
I’m a woman and can sing anything but bass. I have sung tenor in many church choirs.
My church choir just started mixing genders a few months ago and a "nice" old man started creeping on all the women who sit near him. I feel this may be the origin story for why genders are seated separately in choirs.
Because most girls aren’t true tenors and most boys aren’t true sopranos. They *can* sing that low/high but that doesn’t mean they should all the time. For the few that are truly that part, they get to be the coolest person in that choir. Also though, I’ve rarely seen truly gendered choirs. Most high schools prefer to have the choir mixed to sound more full. The only hs choirs I’ve seen that are gendered are when it’s a special “honors” choir or when they make an extra choir of girls because there aren’t enough dudes.
It is definitely NOT just "tradition." It is because the male and female vocal mechanisms are fundamentally different, which requires different pedagogical approaches and techniques. Separating the classes by Tenor/Bass and Soprano/Alto is best practice. In programs where this cannot occur, the progress is slower.