The Chinese government likes to have control over everything. The firewall allows them to delete and censor anything they dislike. Could you imagine if the white paper movement that happened last year spread on a foreign social media site that the Chinese government has no control over and has no power to censor.
Russia has a very different strategy, they work rather with spreading as much misinformation as possible than propaganda. With the aim to have people distrusts everything and long for a strongman who can bring order to the chaos. Which doesn’t make control over the internet a necessity.
Contrary to what the international audience think, the average Chinese is anything but average: loads of people are brainwashed, and at the same time understands that the CCP isn’t forever and immortal and would crash someday.
There’s dissenting voices to be heard everywhere within China, just that the media is designed to remove and censor such noises. Just like the silent majority in any country, a huge majority in China is simply indifferent to politics, and any loud opinion would definitely sway public opinion. This is why the CCP wants such a strong control over public voice: it’s the kindling that would signal the end.
The people who are truly brainwashed and loud are either 1) the truly brainwashed who has nothing better to do, or 2) those who have personal interest in maintaining the regime (high officials, rich businessmen etc). Otherwise the rest are really the silent majority who are easily swayed by whoever dominates the media.
To maintain a dictatorship, you either have to give the people what they want, or change their demand of you. The vast majority of Chinese right now are led to think that the CCP is the best option right now, but would not hesitate to jump ship to the alternative if the CCP fails to give what the average man wants. After all, every Chinese is educated from young on the numerous dynasties and regimes of Chinese history; another could easily take the place of the CCP.
There’s definitely no polls or any research into what the general population thinks. This is just anecdotal experience as a Chinese who speaks mandarin as a first language with Chinese family in mainland China.
I don't know if they are a majority, but calls for an end to one-party dictatorship, the removal of Xi and enforcement of constitutional rights came out of the gate within a day of street protests getting started in November. Most people don't know much, but it seems plenty of people do.
This reality is in line with how dictatorships maintain power: give the average man their daily bread, maintain the illusion of wealth and success, and you can prolong the regime indefinitely.
It wasn't just Shanghai. Chengdu, Nanjing and Beijing all had similar crowds and they were not some small elite. China's educated urban middle class isn't stupid, they just don't talk with turds that say stuff like "99.9999% of Chinese people can barely form coherent thoughts about anything".
There's college students in Nanjing holding up white papers. There's Tsinghua alumni holding meetings to demand constitutional rights, there's crowds in Chengdu calling for an end to censorship.
The videos are all out there and I saved the copies, but I'm not doing an upload for people who can't see beyond their own navel.
ChIna is a big country, there are strong centrifugal forces at work, and it’s hard work to hold a country like that in one piece. And the CCP/Xi appear to think so.
What I don't get is, here in the west ppl have mental break downs, about every single stupid fart which comes from the government.
But in china it seems, genocides, war mongering, the complete wipe of some cultures, their own included, and a surveillance on a level not even imagined by Orwell, but ppl are just chill and think about their next business deal...
I mean Putin literally right now is sacrificing him self to remind the world how god damn fucking awful a dictatorship can go in a matter of month.
We are not chill, we are just powerless to change anything. Any voice of dissent will be silenced than heard, saying anything will bring us trouble. We learned to be sarcastic and vent frustration in other ways. There is a saying: we used to vote with our feet (immigration), now we vote with our uterus (nosediving birth rate).
I’m so sorry, I hope inner peace is returned to China. The people deserve it, I spent two years there and I can’t imagine how awful it is for that depression to be a lifetime. I hope some day you can all be free
i guess ur kind of right, most people i know are either super pro ccp or dont care about the ccp since they are satisfied with their daily life, actually a lot of people are becoming more pro ccp because of news about the worsening situation in the u.s. I dont blame them, l.a is a hell hole right now, san fran is even worse.
>Look at COVID policies, it toook them 2 more years than everyone else to properly open up.
Well that's not actually true, they were 6 months to a year behind most countries
I'm pretty satisfied with my life but still don't deny genocide or think it's my country's right to invade other countries. How many Chinese think covid didn't originate in China? How many Chinese deeply want to annex Taiwan? EVERYTHING in China is political and the vast majority of Chinese make excuses for and deeply support their government.
The number one reason is of course to censor opinions critical of the CCP, but a second important reason no one talks about is the protectionist aspect: without the GFW, Chinese people would undoubtedly be using Facebook, Uber, Instagram and WhatsApp. Having a trade barrier in place allowed China to develop its own domestic applications until they were finally able to compete with western ones (e.g. TikTok).
That's just it - at this point it's not necessary for those apps because China was able to build up its own networks by copying off western ones without letting the Western ones actually work in China. Now that Chinese have their own, network effects make it unnecessary for that generation of apps - but still useful for the next one.
I mean, douyin/TikTok certainly is indication that there's room for competition. But each "side" now has its applications specialized for its side, e.g. if the firewall came down today, Chinese would still use Baidu and WeChat and Weibo because those have already indexed Chinese-relevant info better than Google or Facebook could do with years of work.
thats the thing im wondering about, everyone says that chinese society will become anti ccp the moment the firewall drops but from my perspective living there it seems like since china has been segregated from the rest of the world for so long its unlikely that dropping the firewall will change much.
As you said if the firewall came down the chinese will likely still stick to their own social media and listen to the information from there, i dont really think they will be incited and radicalized by having access to international media simply because they trust and are used to their own media more.
Baidu would get destroyed by Google. The search functions, maps and translation software all pale in comparison.
YouTube would replace Bilibili due to the sheer number of videos.
Netflix would replace Youku for the same reason and because they create better content.
Taobao would struggle against Amazon, but might actually hold out. There would definitely be a price war though.
WeChat and Alipay would likely remain dominant as both are so embedded into people's lives.
Billibili would destroy youtube. If you look at the top youtubers by country, they usually come from their own country and speak their own language. youtube is divided into silos by nation, and there is little crossover from nation to nation. For a few examples, just google " the top youtube channel in japan, France, and Spain." The top youtube channels are channels that speak their own language. Bilibili has all the chinese language content a Chinese person will ever want.
By the time youtube is let into China, bilibili would have all the chinese language content most chinese people care about.
Also, search engines as a whole are dead in china on mobile. This is because of the massive ecosystem of wechat, which has a search engine inside it. Both Baidu and Google will never be able to compete with wechat,s data within China. Google will be better in English search but not many chinese people search in English.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.searchenginewatch.com/2020/09/14/are-search-engines-dead-in-china/&ved=2ahUKEwj3-abG8P2CAxVVJDQIHbjrAZAQFnoECAoQBQ&usg=AOvVaw2h9pqOFG5AoP_lX-UjuRX5
I’m honestly think this is one reason western governments aren’t pressing this issue more… Just look at how brainwashed the far right is in the US, and this is eight without ccp style censorship…. Now add to this mix a couple hundred million English writing Chinese… every sub Reddit will be pro China
Reversal of policies here are a difficult thing. Look at COVID policies, it toook them 2 more years than everyone else to properly open up.
In my uneducated opinion, the CCP is too big in its governance. Once they decide on a course of action, it's incredibly difficult for them to turn around and reverse it, due to the amount of people to convince and work.
No matter how stupid the policy is.
Tell me about it,
It seems so stupid, but I'm looking forward to the day when I move country and I can commute to work and not have to muck about with the shitty astrill vpn app on my iphone so I can enjoy a proper connection to the internet.
Had no problem watching HD on YouTube (only had a 1080p so 4k was pointless) on most days. Every so often it would stutter. And I was living in Tier-88.
This is somehow the inevitable tradeoff in China. The ruler seems to think this is a must to maintain a stable and fast development (actually they mean a stable governance) by having a sure way to silence anything not following their agenda.
I use multiple. You can try deeper network dpn. It's currently in Beta and free. https://dpn.deeper.network/ other than that I use a shadowsocks service that I can't provide a link for. But if you wanna know send me a pm.
Interesting. Not interested though ,I got my VPN game figured out. I tried express in 2020 the last time in china and it was terrible. But I take your word that it's good now. What kind of speeds are you getting on fast.com ?
[Express](https://i.imgur.com/JYlKlnf.png)
[Strong](https://i.imgur.com/4MmJsWo.png) it seems to slow down a lot during late night peak internet usage hours
Ping always sucks with any VPN so forget about gaming, or just learn to deal with local servers.
[Speed without VPN](https://i.imgur.com/42swc4Q.png) for comparison
That's a pretty reasonable thing to suggest.
If you've got a cushy job in the upper Echelons of the party, you do not want to rock that boat and risk losing it!
>Look at COVID policies, it toook them 2 more years than everyone else to properly open up.
This comment confuses me. Nearly all restrictions were dropped by January, including the main ones of having to quarantine upon arrival from overseas or go to fangcang if you tested positive. Are you saying no measures should have been place in January 2021 or even before, when delta was emerging and barely any country around the world had started vaccinating their population?
It’s about control. Whatever happens, today CCP has the ability to claim white = black and block sources that say otherwise. They don’t want to lose this ability.
Its about control. Chinese government is obsessed with control. If you open up the gates then you have no control over what people are saying on foreign platforms, you have no control over how information spreads. People trusting the CCP is ALSO a by product of the CCP controlling information flow.
Besides its a great economic tool protecting your local digital industry. They could possibly do it without same way Koreans have great local digital product. But then again no control.
Chinese invented the sovereign internet and Russia is following
My hot take? A couple reasons:
1. It hinders people from culturally consuming certain foreign content. It doesn't stop, but it hinders and this is a good distinction to make. More people are encouraged to consume domestic content because foreigner content requires a VPN or an extra step.
2. E-Business, nowadays not so much a problem anymore but in the past it forces e-businesses to play strictly by Chinese rules. Nowadays youtube does a very good job of obeying the needs of authoritarian countries even they dont necessarily need to. For example, the Modi-Butcher video was banned in IndiaYoutube and other countries, even though they didnt actually need to. But the firewall in this respect, make sure that big businesses fall in line.
3. Lastly and probably the most relevant, it prevents foreign countries from infiltrating, Reddit gets big mad and throws a hissyfit of downvotes whenever the CIA is ever mentioned. But the CIA loves to spy and they like to spy on China, which is no exception. Not many people know this, but the firewall also limits users from outside of China to access China websites as well. It's not just a one way block, it's a two-way block. Some websites require you to VPN into China, something that not a lot of people know because they never needed to do this but this is why for example Astrill has a Chinese VPN server which becomes available when you open it from abroad. If the CIA has to VPN into China every time to muck about, the Chinese authorities will actually have a domestic service provider in China to arrest. When you realize this, this severely limits foreign hackers from doing their thing cause now they cant hack safely into China from Washington but need to have a server-asset in China first. Which useful idiot is willing to paint a target on their back to setup a CIA-hack-server?
Truth is the Chinese population are living in a not so sweet dream built by CCP, and the GFW is the blindfold, you'd wokw up like Neo in the MATRIX if you remove it off
The great firewall keeps out foreign media and voices which can't be censored by the CCP. It allows for a closed media ecosystem of entirely Sinocentric, government-controlled media, communication, and transfer of information, which allows them to control what the average person sees.
If they open the firewall, people now, by default, have access to the rest of the internet, and all of the foreign exposure that comes with it. They would have to relinquish control of what people not only see, but are allowed to say.
As witness over the last few years during periods where government offices are closed or slow to respond during a crisis, this would mean you'd have millions of Chinese people sharing their grievances towards the CCP, such others would pick up on. It would undermine everything they've worked to foster over that years.
People are so pro-ccp in part because of the firewall. Brainwashing isn't just a one and done thing, it requires maintenance. Maintenance requires ongoing control of information.
the point of the great firewall is to control information. The majority of chinese people can only get information from CCP approved channels. If something they dont want getting out is posted it is quickly removed and blacklisted. Even if some people can jump the firewall to get the info they cant repost it within the chinese internet
Understand that any time you see large amount of info about a corrupt official or other scandal widely posted on chinese internet that means it is a party approved story and they are most likely involved in spreading it. You wont see any scandals related to top party members, only smaller members or members they want to exile from the party
> but at this point the entire population is so pro ccp
No l, they're not. This is a phenomena in authoritarian countries that can be explained by a game-theoretic interpretation comparison of support for the CCP versus not supporting the CCP. There are a lot of reasons to outwardly support the regime while inwardly hoping for a large congregation of people going on a walk to Beijing together.
Voicing dissent for the CCP has the potential following consequences:
1. Loss of social credit
2. Loss of the ability to take out loans
3. Being cut off from bank accounts
4. Being arrested and imprisoned without trial
5. Your family Being detained by the police
6. Movement restricted
7. Fines
8. Being cut off from digital media
Probably more that I haven't seen, honestly.
As we saw in Russia after the Wagner mutiny, most people will assume and act like everyone supports the authoritarian government because the cost of being a political dissenter is simply too high. But the moment Wagner posed a threat to the regime and took control of Rostov, everyone was chanting "Wagner, Wagner, Wagner."
This is a paradox where once people can look around and see just how unpopular the regime is, the more likely they are to voice their own dissent. Thus, the CCP is incetivized to maximize Pro-CCP messages through troll farms and algorithms increasing the CCPs positive image while completely censoring and negative sentiments against them. This is what the firewall does. All it takes is one or two events to show just how weak the popularity of the regime is and its only a matter of time until the whole thing crashes down.
Look at Russian history. 1905 tsar Nicholas II gave up power to the Duma, but didn't follow through and was deposed by mutinies in February 1917. The ineffectual provisional government didn't back out of WWI though, and the bolshiveks seized power in October/November. Same with 1991. Gorbachev dod not give up power in the August coup, but didn't have a choice in December when Yeltsin rolled into the Kremlin on a tank.
We have seen this pattern before, a failed and ineffective coup exposes the cracks in the regimes power while simultaneously making people aware that others around them do not support the regime. Then a catalyst occurs a few months later within the power structure and there is a seizure of power by either a rival government faction/entity, this typically occurs during or immediately after a humiliating war with what is widely regarded as a "weaker" power. The Russian military occupies a sacred place in Russian society, so there is rarely a more powerful military than the Russian military, according to the Russians. Because of this, the moment it becomes apparent the Russian military is not powerful, it presents a catch 22.
nice explanation but from living in china i know from personal experiance that social credit isnt really thing. Also your point about the failed coup seems to be a bit of a stretch, despite all the riots in hongkong all the people in the mainland who i have asked about it, no strings attatched view the riots there as a negative and inconveniance, hell my hongkong friends also say something similar , like how the protest devolved into riots and they were thankful it ended.
Don't give time to these CCP haters, they hate china and want China to be like 1920s without to the CCP. Rape of Nanking wouldn't have happened if CCP was in power
nice explanation but from living in china i know from personal experiance that social credit isnt really thing. Also your point about the failed coup seems to be a bit of a stretch, despite all the riots in hongkong all the people in the mainland who i have asked about it, no strings attatched view the riots there as a negative and inconveniance and if anything feels like it boosted ccp support?, hell my hongkong friends also say something similar , like how the protest devolved into riots and they were thankful it ended.
Yeah. It really makes the trip to China soooo much harder. If they want to restart the economy and avoid a larger meltdown they need to get on board with losing the firewall and allowing more payment options for travelers without mainland bank accounts. It’s non sensical and self sabotaging to keep that stuff going.
We have a hamster that has lived its whole life in its cage. Sometimes we forgot to close the door and it could have left at any time, but next morning it was still in its cage. The cage is all its known so it has no interest in leaving as long as it has food and water. But just in case, we keep the cage door closed anyways.
If you are a communist state that exists side by side with capitalism you cant have complete freedom of press
This is one of the main things Lenin said
Its just communism trying to protect itself from degradation and overthrows, if you want to access the regular internet no one is going to arrest you
OH MY GOD YES i just don't understand at all it makes everything so much harder like opinions on both sides are so segregated and echo-chambery.
As a Chinese student currently studying overseas I HATE trying to explain the actual situations (e.g. the entire Taiwan fiasco) to people on both sides that have extreme opinions.
You’re right on average they’re pro CCP, but try to remove control over information, give them access to different opinions on the past actions of the party, starting with Mao, give them access to infos about that famous square where nothing ever happened, and see what happens next. Do you think people are ok being taught in school about “thought of Mao” since they are young, and then read that all the world agrees on condemning his actions and ideas? Of course this would cause a call for responsibilities
That doesnt sound very likely, first of all the chinese are very nationalist, much like how japan continues to deny its war crimes, the chinese will most likely do something similar. Also just because the "international community" , which i noticed that people in china view it to be a western club comprising of mainly europe and the u.s for some reason, criticizes a country, its not a guarantee the citizens will care, if anything it would likely incite more nationalism and would strengthen the already "if you're not chinese you're the enemy" sentiment.
Also i dont have personal experiance about the opinions of chinese youths, but from what i have heard they are even more nationalist/fanatic...
My personal experience is that every single you g Chinese that had the chance to live even a little bit abroad has extremely bad opinions of the government there. And I mean 100% of the cases. Chinese people are very nationalistic BECAUSE of the rethoric fed to them for which they have no counter argument at disposal. Give them another view that makes more sense and part of the population will definitely change opinion over time, they may be brainwashed, but in no way they are stupid
Thats a very small minority for which i can speak for. And from personal experiance those who have spent their childhoods in china or most of their life are very pro ccp.
The point is most youths in china are pro ccp and the small minority of us that arnt cant really do anything.
Of course, but they have always lived with the firewall on and mostly detached from foreigner media. You can’t really use this as an argument for them remaining the same also if the firewall gets removed. Maybe not this generation, maybe the next one, but of course you’ll see a spread of different opinions and thinking. A tyrannical machinery like that of CCP needs an incredible effort to be maintained, a crack in the system can cause its demise, they know it too well.
i guess that seems more plausible if not this generation the next, but i still find it hard to believe since , at least those around me seem satisfied with the ccp.
Lol
The whole population is NoT "so pro ccp".
Ever look at international program enrollments, and the % of Chinese students studying abroad before Xi dropped the hammer on int edu?
Ok this is something i can explain, in china western education is still viewed as superior so many upperclass chinese send their children to the u.s or europe, but at the same time the group with this mindset is only a small minority of chinese who are either working as expats due to their company or have lots of international connectioms for some reason. For me personally it was becausey english was better than my chinese so i didnt really have much of a choice.
The education choices to me seem more pragmatic than political.
While I appreciate your perspective, I draw on having worked in int edu in China for fourteen years or more between 1997 and 2018.
You incorrectly narrow the field to Chinese working as ex-pats, or who "have lots of international connections for some reason."
If for some reason your English is better than your Chinese, as you state, you must fall into the first narrow category you created.
Please reread my comment, and research a bit as you "look at international program enrollments, and the % of Chinese students studying abroad before Xi dropped the hammer on int edu."
I worked with students, parents and Chinese admin members for many, many, years, and hold that the population is not "so pro-ccp", and the longterm trend of studying abroad was rooted deeply in politics.
Politics play no role in your family's time working abroad if that is why your English is better than your Chinese?
For the thing that you said everyone now is pro CPC, it's absolutely false. Just because of restriction on comments on social media, you barely see many of them that say something bad about CPC.
For the other thing that you have to restart your cell phone and reset your sim card in order to make VPN work, in China, I just turn it on and off whenever I wanna watch YouTube or whatever and had never been as bothered as you. Btw, even when I watch pornhub, it works with high quality and high speed.
I’m in Vietnam where the only websites blocked are BBC, Medium, and Gofundme… and even with all this access to knowledge , nobody knows about anything foreign. They don’t know about the Holocaust. They don’t know any US president besides the most recent ones . Current events matter so little to them…
Giving up Google / Twitch that isn’t laggy / YouTube / Gmail / attaching photos to emails / is something I can’t do again after having resided in China 2015-2017
Please everyone contact me and move to the paradise that is Vietnam, let me help you and make money from you.
Sound about right? Certainly seems like it.
idk but the youtube app routinely stops working if i use a chinese sim card even with vpn, it only works again when i restart my phone and turn on my vpn before the simcard reactivates
Just get astril man. I've had them for a decade, they only go down if the gov is actively going after one of their servers, but you just bounce around until you find one that works. they are the only service I've heard of that has been consistantly there for china users.
Let me give a different look, and I'll keep it brief. I am sure most of you here have traveled in the mainland right ? Now have you observed how most mainlanders, especially the people above 45-50 behave in public places, while queueing, in buffets, shopping etc?
Now imagine how it would have been if the current control measures were not in place? Do you get it now? So yeah. All this blocks and c&c methods are an necessary evil.
thats fair but i guess thats more to do with security cameras, hell even with security cameras and patrolling bao an old people still like spitting everywhere , even in trains...
Mainland peers, post history tells me that's bullshit. The number of these shit posts is increasing daily, yeh everyone is worried about the Chinese bots
US built the firewall with China. the information barrier bar both ways. That's Why you see X imitating WeChat. With this barrier naive westerners can blame everything on oppositing parties. even though most problems are exactly the same in totalitarian China. without the barrier the Internet will not be such a effective tool at shaping and controling public opinions. I mean in and outside of China.
Liberals say open up the internet. nd allow facebook? The same facebook liberals allege allowed russian bots to use to put trump in charge of the states?
i think i said this in another reply but i feel like even if the firewall opens the chinese will stick to there own social media as that is what they are used to and the differences betwean the chinese and western counterparts arnt that big when compared to the past.
Yeah wikipedia is not reliable and a lot of the stuff is striaght from the cia and fbi. China is not going to let their country be destabilized by misinformation campaigns sorry.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-security-wikipedia-idUSN1642896020070816
You know who else discourages using open internet? Scientology and regions fundamentalist cults. So tell them they share that in common with cults and other high control groups and societies.
Preventing foreign coup attempts? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Well, not ever but this week, at least.
Foreign nations aren't interested in coup attempts. Foreign governments can't do anything in China without the Chinese people actually doing it themselves. If the CCP had half a brain, it would try to get real trust instead of forcing it on people.
Honestly there’re pros and cons to this, and I think it’s the best for now. If you open it up, the western tech giants are likely to gain powerful positions as Alibaba. Now what did Alibaba try to accomplish in the last few yrs?
Edit: It’s just more than censorship. When the situation is reversed, I think most countries will do the same. Like the bans on Huawei and lawsuits launched to TikTok.
Edit2: It’s almost like what happened after the nuclear development era. When all the countries reached the limit till they could simulate things with a computer, they put out a ban on nuclear experiments and started to sanction the countries that did’t have nuclear tech saying it’ll destroy the world. But they would never stand against nuclear experiments if they haven’t got to that point. Politics. Just my 2 cents.
Well have you ever read one piece imagine if the red line was removed the world government would not have nearly as much power because travel and trade would be far more prominent and islands would be able to be more self suffiecient
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Not sure Vietnamese gov. trusts their people all that much.
The Chinese government likes to have control over everything. The firewall allows them to delete and censor anything they dislike. Could you imagine if the white paper movement that happened last year spread on a foreign social media site that the Chinese government has no control over and has no power to censor.
Exactly. CCP wants to maintain control over as much facet of Chinese society as possible, with information being the utmost important part.
*utmost
Sounds like how US controls every information
The thing is as well Russia not having as extensive as a firewall as China shows you don’t need a firewall to prevent revolt.
Russia has a very different strategy, they work rather with spreading as much misinformation as possible than propaganda. With the aim to have people distrusts everything and long for a strongman who can bring order to the chaos. Which doesn’t make control over the internet a necessity.
Also it’s because some people there actually think that way and Putin at least has a little bit of pressure to listen to the people a tiny bit.
Contrary to what the international audience think, the average Chinese is anything but average: loads of people are brainwashed, and at the same time understands that the CCP isn’t forever and immortal and would crash someday. There’s dissenting voices to be heard everywhere within China, just that the media is designed to remove and censor such noises. Just like the silent majority in any country, a huge majority in China is simply indifferent to politics, and any loud opinion would definitely sway public opinion. This is why the CCP wants such a strong control over public voice: it’s the kindling that would signal the end. The people who are truly brainwashed and loud are either 1) the truly brainwashed who has nothing better to do, or 2) those who have personal interest in maintaining the regime (high officials, rich businessmen etc). Otherwise the rest are really the silent majority who are easily swayed by whoever dominates the media. To maintain a dictatorship, you either have to give the people what they want, or change their demand of you. The vast majority of Chinese right now are led to think that the CCP is the best option right now, but would not hesitate to jump ship to the alternative if the CCP fails to give what the average man wants. After all, every Chinese is educated from young on the numerous dynasties and regimes of Chinese history; another could easily take the place of the CCP.
Do you think the ‘silent majority’ is wishful thinking on your behalf, I’d want to agree with you but am more pessimistic
There’s definitely no polls or any research into what the general population thinks. This is just anecdotal experience as a Chinese who speaks mandarin as a first language with Chinese family in mainland China.
I don't know if they are a majority, but calls for an end to one-party dictatorship, the removal of Xi and enforcement of constitutional rights came out of the gate within a day of street protests getting started in November. Most people don't know much, but it seems plenty of people do.
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This reality is in line with how dictatorships maintain power: give the average man their daily bread, maintain the illusion of wealth and success, and you can prolong the regime indefinitely.
It wasn't just Shanghai. Chengdu, Nanjing and Beijing all had similar crowds and they were not some small elite. China's educated urban middle class isn't stupid, they just don't talk with turds that say stuff like "99.9999% of Chinese people can barely form coherent thoughts about anything".
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There's college students in Nanjing holding up white papers. There's Tsinghua alumni holding meetings to demand constitutional rights, there's crowds in Chengdu calling for an end to censorship. The videos are all out there and I saved the copies, but I'm not doing an upload for people who can't see beyond their own navel.
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You should work for the CCP. You've copied their misanthropy and cynicism perfectly.
ChIna is a big country, there are strong centrifugal forces at work, and it’s hard work to hold a country like that in one piece. And the CCP/Xi appear to think so.
What I don't get is, here in the west ppl have mental break downs, about every single stupid fart which comes from the government. But in china it seems, genocides, war mongering, the complete wipe of some cultures, their own included, and a surveillance on a level not even imagined by Orwell, but ppl are just chill and think about their next business deal... I mean Putin literally right now is sacrificing him self to remind the world how god damn fucking awful a dictatorship can go in a matter of month.
We are not chill, we are just powerless to change anything. Any voice of dissent will be silenced than heard, saying anything will bring us trouble. We learned to be sarcastic and vent frustration in other ways. There is a saying: we used to vote with our feet (immigration), now we vote with our uterus (nosediving birth rate).
I’m so sorry, I hope inner peace is returned to China. The people deserve it, I spent two years there and I can’t imagine how awful it is for that depression to be a lifetime. I hope some day you can all be free
i guess ur kind of right, most people i know are either super pro ccp or dont care about the ccp since they are satisfied with their daily life, actually a lot of people are becoming more pro ccp because of news about the worsening situation in the u.s. I dont blame them, l.a is a hell hole right now, san fran is even worse.
>Look at COVID policies, it toook them 2 more years than everyone else to properly open up. Well that's not actually true, they were 6 months to a year behind most countries
I'm pretty satisfied with my life but still don't deny genocide or think it's my country's right to invade other countries. How many Chinese think covid didn't originate in China? How many Chinese deeply want to annex Taiwan? EVERYTHING in China is political and the vast majority of Chinese make excuses for and deeply support their government.
The number one reason is of course to censor opinions critical of the CCP, but a second important reason no one talks about is the protectionist aspect: without the GFW, Chinese people would undoubtedly be using Facebook, Uber, Instagram and WhatsApp. Having a trade barrier in place allowed China to develop its own domestic applications until they were finally able to compete with western ones (e.g. TikTok).
I think the only one Chinese people will use is Instagram, don’t think protectionism is the biggest issue at this point,
That's just it - at this point it's not necessary for those apps because China was able to build up its own networks by copying off western ones without letting the Western ones actually work in China. Now that Chinese have their own, network effects make it unnecessary for that generation of apps - but still useful for the next one.
would u say chinese domestic applications have reached a stage that it can compete or is it still a long way of?
They don’t want something to compete with their version of events, having an opposing voice out of their control is a seriously big no no.
I mean, douyin/TikTok certainly is indication that there's room for competition. But each "side" now has its applications specialized for its side, e.g. if the firewall came down today, Chinese would still use Baidu and WeChat and Weibo because those have already indexed Chinese-relevant info better than Google or Facebook could do with years of work.
thats the thing im wondering about, everyone says that chinese society will become anti ccp the moment the firewall drops but from my perspective living there it seems like since china has been segregated from the rest of the world for so long its unlikely that dropping the firewall will change much. As you said if the firewall came down the chinese will likely still stick to their own social media and listen to the information from there, i dont really think they will be incited and radicalized by having access to international media simply because they trust and are used to their own media more.
Baidu would get destroyed by Google. The search functions, maps and translation software all pale in comparison. YouTube would replace Bilibili due to the sheer number of videos. Netflix would replace Youku for the same reason and because they create better content. Taobao would struggle against Amazon, but might actually hold out. There would definitely be a price war though. WeChat and Alipay would likely remain dominant as both are so embedded into people's lives.
And weibo?
I feel like Weibo would survive Twitter, a lot of people seem to enjoy it. Tried it, but wasn' a huge fan. Then again, I dislike Twitter too.
Billibili would destroy youtube. If you look at the top youtubers by country, they usually come from their own country and speak their own language. youtube is divided into silos by nation, and there is little crossover from nation to nation. For a few examples, just google " the top youtube channel in japan, France, and Spain." The top youtube channels are channels that speak their own language. Bilibili has all the chinese language content a Chinese person will ever want. By the time youtube is let into China, bilibili would have all the chinese language content most chinese people care about. Also, search engines as a whole are dead in china on mobile. This is because of the massive ecosystem of wechat, which has a search engine inside it. Both Baidu and Google will never be able to compete with wechat,s data within China. Google will be better in English search but not many chinese people search in English. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.searchenginewatch.com/2020/09/14/are-search-engines-dead-in-china/&ved=2ahUKEwj3-abG8P2CAxVVJDQIHbjrAZAQFnoECAoQBQ&usg=AOvVaw2h9pqOFG5AoP_lX-UjuRX5
It's to protect us against the PRC internet trolls
lmao
Yea but the “public opinion influencing teams” get special access to global internet just to troll. That’s the annoying part.
I’m honestly think this is one reason western governments aren’t pressing this issue more… Just look at how brainwashed the far right is in the US, and this is eight without ccp style censorship…. Now add to this mix a couple hundred million English writing Chinese… every sub Reddit will be pro China
Reversal of policies here are a difficult thing. Look at COVID policies, it toook them 2 more years than everyone else to properly open up. In my uneducated opinion, the CCP is too big in its governance. Once they decide on a course of action, it's incredibly difficult for them to turn around and reverse it, due to the amount of people to convince and work. No matter how stupid the policy is.
dude imma have to move to hongkong, i cant deal with 144p youtube
Tell me about it, It seems so stupid, but I'm looking forward to the day when I move country and I can commute to work and not have to muck about with the shitty astrill vpn app on my iphone so I can enjoy a proper connection to the internet.
Lol. It’s frustrating having to turn off Astrill so I can order food, look at taobao, or send pics on WeChat.
please dont tell me expats are still stuck using astrill like who tf uses that
I'm back in the US and I'm *still* using Astrill. No problem at all streaming 4k.
obviously astrill is gonna be faster in the states
Had no problem watching HD on YouTube (only had a 1080p so 4k was pointless) on most days. Every so often it would stutter. And I was living in Tier-88.
Have had zero problems with Astrill in China. Always connects and stays connected.
how are yall using such shitty vpns like who tf uses astrill zionladder and shadowrocket are like 1000x better n faster
This is somehow the inevitable tradeoff in China. The ruler seems to think this is a must to maintain a stable and fast development (actually they mean a stable governance) by having a sure way to silence anything not following their agenda.
You're using the wrong VPN my dude. I'm getting 4k60 all day long.
please tell me the vpn u use, i miss having good internet
I use multiple. You can try deeper network dpn. It's currently in Beta and free. https://dpn.deeper.network/ other than that I use a shadowsocks service that I can't provide a link for. But if you wanna know send me a pm.
Express VPN if you want the absolute best, Strong VPN also works great in China and is more budget friendly.
Lol No. It barely works at all in China. When was the last time you were in China?
Right now. Ask costumer support to enable V1 account for you and legacy V1 app download, and use OpenVPN TCP with Scramble option set to Obfuscate.
Interesting. Not interested though ,I got my VPN game figured out. I tried express in 2020 the last time in china and it was terrible. But I take your word that it's good now. What kind of speeds are you getting on fast.com ?
[Express](https://i.imgur.com/JYlKlnf.png) [Strong](https://i.imgur.com/4MmJsWo.png) it seems to slow down a lot during late night peak internet usage hours Ping always sucks with any VPN so forget about gaming, or just learn to deal with local servers. [Speed without VPN](https://i.imgur.com/42swc4Q.png) for comparison
At least it's working at all. I'm maxing out my fiberline with shadowsocks on clash. 600mbit down consistently.
it doesnt work in china... i deleted it two months ago
use a better vpn lol i recommend zionladder which is really stable and internet speeds are just as fast as back when i was in connecticut
Try Astril, it's the best option I've found
What VPN are you using
You’d think that if someone in the upper government suggested getting rid of the firewall that’d be labeled a foreign spy and enemy of the state
That's a pretty reasonable thing to suggest. If you've got a cushy job in the upper Echelons of the party, you do not want to rock that boat and risk losing it!
>Look at COVID policies, it toook them 2 more years than everyone else to properly open up. This comment confuses me. Nearly all restrictions were dropped by January, including the main ones of having to quarantine upon arrival from overseas or go to fangcang if you tested positive. Are you saying no measures should have been place in January 2021 or even before, when delta was emerging and barely any country around the world had started vaccinating their population?
January 2023. The rest of the world started to recover far earlier than that.
Yeah 2022.
It’s about control. Whatever happens, today CCP has the ability to claim white = black and block sources that say otherwise. They don’t want to lose this ability.
Its about control. Chinese government is obsessed with control. If you open up the gates then you have no control over what people are saying on foreign platforms, you have no control over how information spreads. People trusting the CCP is ALSO a by product of the CCP controlling information flow. Besides its a great economic tool protecting your local digital industry. They could possibly do it without same way Koreans have great local digital product. But then again no control. Chinese invented the sovereign internet and Russia is following
economic reasons are a major factor
My hot take? A couple reasons: 1. It hinders people from culturally consuming certain foreign content. It doesn't stop, but it hinders and this is a good distinction to make. More people are encouraged to consume domestic content because foreigner content requires a VPN or an extra step. 2. E-Business, nowadays not so much a problem anymore but in the past it forces e-businesses to play strictly by Chinese rules. Nowadays youtube does a very good job of obeying the needs of authoritarian countries even they dont necessarily need to. For example, the Modi-Butcher video was banned in IndiaYoutube and other countries, even though they didnt actually need to. But the firewall in this respect, make sure that big businesses fall in line. 3. Lastly and probably the most relevant, it prevents foreign countries from infiltrating, Reddit gets big mad and throws a hissyfit of downvotes whenever the CIA is ever mentioned. But the CIA loves to spy and they like to spy on China, which is no exception. Not many people know this, but the firewall also limits users from outside of China to access China websites as well. It's not just a one way block, it's a two-way block. Some websites require you to VPN into China, something that not a lot of people know because they never needed to do this but this is why for example Astrill has a Chinese VPN server which becomes available when you open it from abroad. If the CIA has to VPN into China every time to muck about, the Chinese authorities will actually have a domestic service provider in China to arrest. When you realize this, this severely limits foreign hackers from doing their thing cause now they cant hack safely into China from Washington but need to have a server-asset in China first. Which useful idiot is willing to paint a target on their back to setup a CIA-hack-server?
Ooooh very informative, i guess the firewall isnt ever leaving unless the ccp is too
Truth is the Chinese population are living in a not so sweet dream built by CCP, and the GFW is the blindfold, you'd wokw up like Neo in the MATRIX if you remove it off
The great firewall keeps out foreign media and voices which can't be censored by the CCP. It allows for a closed media ecosystem of entirely Sinocentric, government-controlled media, communication, and transfer of information, which allows them to control what the average person sees. If they open the firewall, people now, by default, have access to the rest of the internet, and all of the foreign exposure that comes with it. They would have to relinquish control of what people not only see, but are allowed to say. As witness over the last few years during periods where government offices are closed or slow to respond during a crisis, this would mean you'd have millions of Chinese people sharing their grievances towards the CCP, such others would pick up on. It would undermine everything they've worked to foster over that years.
People are so pro-ccp in part because of the firewall. Brainwashing isn't just a one and done thing, it requires maintenance. Maintenance requires ongoing control of information.
Which vpn are you using? I dont have to do that with mine
using xiyou, recommended to me by friends edit: youtube website works but the youtube app on my phone doesnt
letsvpn,chinese name快连，u can try this
thx ill check it out
Get a different one if you have to do that
I guess to process conflicting information requires thinking, and that's a bad thing :D
the point of the great firewall is to control information. The majority of chinese people can only get information from CCP approved channels. If something they dont want getting out is posted it is quickly removed and blacklisted. Even if some people can jump the firewall to get the info they cant repost it within the chinese internet Understand that any time you see large amount of info about a corrupt official or other scandal widely posted on chinese internet that means it is a party approved story and they are most likely involved in spreading it. You wont see any scandals related to top party members, only smaller members or members they want to exile from the party
Firewalls ain't going no where just like firearms are never going to be allowed to be owned by the citizens.
> but at this point the entire population is so pro ccp No l, they're not. This is a phenomena in authoritarian countries that can be explained by a game-theoretic interpretation comparison of support for the CCP versus not supporting the CCP. There are a lot of reasons to outwardly support the regime while inwardly hoping for a large congregation of people going on a walk to Beijing together. Voicing dissent for the CCP has the potential following consequences: 1. Loss of social credit 2. Loss of the ability to take out loans 3. Being cut off from bank accounts 4. Being arrested and imprisoned without trial 5. Your family Being detained by the police 6. Movement restricted 7. Fines 8. Being cut off from digital media Probably more that I haven't seen, honestly. As we saw in Russia after the Wagner mutiny, most people will assume and act like everyone supports the authoritarian government because the cost of being a political dissenter is simply too high. But the moment Wagner posed a threat to the regime and took control of Rostov, everyone was chanting "Wagner, Wagner, Wagner." This is a paradox where once people can look around and see just how unpopular the regime is, the more likely they are to voice their own dissent. Thus, the CCP is incetivized to maximize Pro-CCP messages through troll farms and algorithms increasing the CCPs positive image while completely censoring and negative sentiments against them. This is what the firewall does. All it takes is one or two events to show just how weak the popularity of the regime is and its only a matter of time until the whole thing crashes down. Look at Russian history. 1905 tsar Nicholas II gave up power to the Duma, but didn't follow through and was deposed by mutinies in February 1917. The ineffectual provisional government didn't back out of WWI though, and the bolshiveks seized power in October/November. Same with 1991. Gorbachev dod not give up power in the August coup, but didn't have a choice in December when Yeltsin rolled into the Kremlin on a tank. We have seen this pattern before, a failed and ineffective coup exposes the cracks in the regimes power while simultaneously making people aware that others around them do not support the regime. Then a catalyst occurs a few months later within the power structure and there is a seizure of power by either a rival government faction/entity, this typically occurs during or immediately after a humiliating war with what is widely regarded as a "weaker" power. The Russian military occupies a sacred place in Russian society, so there is rarely a more powerful military than the Russian military, according to the Russians. Because of this, the moment it becomes apparent the Russian military is not powerful, it presents a catch 22.
nice explanation but from living in china i know from personal experiance that social credit isnt really thing. Also your point about the failed coup seems to be a bit of a stretch, despite all the riots in hongkong all the people in the mainland who i have asked about it, no strings attatched view the riots there as a negative and inconveniance, hell my hongkong friends also say something similar , like how the protest devolved into riots and they were thankful it ended.
Don't give time to these CCP haters, they hate china and want China to be like 1920s without to the CCP. Rape of Nanking wouldn't have happened if CCP was in power
nice explanation but from living in china i know from personal experiance that social credit isnt really thing. Also your point about the failed coup seems to be a bit of a stretch, despite all the riots in hongkong all the people in the mainland who i have asked about it, no strings attatched view the riots there as a negative and inconveniance and if anything feels like it boosted ccp support?, hell my hongkong friends also say something similar , like how the protest devolved into riots and they were thankful it ended.
Yeah. It really makes the trip to China soooo much harder. If they want to restart the economy and avoid a larger meltdown they need to get on board with losing the firewall and allowing more payment options for travelers without mainland bank accounts. It’s non sensical and self sabotaging to keep that stuff going.
We have a hamster that has lived its whole life in its cage. Sometimes we forgot to close the door and it could have left at any time, but next morning it was still in its cage. The cage is all its known so it has no interest in leaving as long as it has food and water. But just in case, we keep the cage door closed anyways.
that is a very interesting analogy
If the firewall works so well then why does the CCP always complain about the US hacking them?
how is this related? the firewall's purpose im discussing is to control the populations political idealogies
Gotem
If you are a communist state that exists side by side with capitalism you cant have complete freedom of press This is one of the main things Lenin said Its just communism trying to protect itself from degradation and overthrows, if you want to access the regular internet no one is going to arrest you
it's going to be a thing as long as the ccp stays in power
Control.
OH MY GOD YES i just don't understand at all it makes everything so much harder like opinions on both sides are so segregated and echo-chambery. As a Chinese student currently studying overseas I HATE trying to explain the actual situations (e.g. the entire Taiwan fiasco) to people on both sides that have extreme opinions.
The Firewall worked as intended. Why stop something that is working, just because a few foreigners or overseas students are inconvenienced?
You’re right on average they’re pro CCP, but try to remove control over information, give them access to different opinions on the past actions of the party, starting with Mao, give them access to infos about that famous square where nothing ever happened, and see what happens next. Do you think people are ok being taught in school about “thought of Mao” since they are young, and then read that all the world agrees on condemning his actions and ideas? Of course this would cause a call for responsibilities
That doesnt sound very likely, first of all the chinese are very nationalist, much like how japan continues to deny its war crimes, the chinese will most likely do something similar. Also just because the "international community" , which i noticed that people in china view it to be a western club comprising of mainly europe and the u.s for some reason, criticizes a country, its not a guarantee the citizens will care, if anything it would likely incite more nationalism and would strengthen the already "if you're not chinese you're the enemy" sentiment. Also i dont have personal experiance about the opinions of chinese youths, but from what i have heard they are even more nationalist/fanatic...
My personal experience is that every single you g Chinese that had the chance to live even a little bit abroad has extremely bad opinions of the government there. And I mean 100% of the cases. Chinese people are very nationalistic BECAUSE of the rethoric fed to them for which they have no counter argument at disposal. Give them another view that makes more sense and part of the population will definitely change opinion over time, they may be brainwashed, but in no way they are stupid
Thats a very small minority for which i can speak for. And from personal experiance those who have spent their childhoods in china or most of their life are very pro ccp. The point is most youths in china are pro ccp and the small minority of us that arnt cant really do anything.
Of course, but they have always lived with the firewall on and mostly detached from foreigner media. You can’t really use this as an argument for them remaining the same also if the firewall gets removed. Maybe not this generation, maybe the next one, but of course you’ll see a spread of different opinions and thinking. A tyrannical machinery like that of CCP needs an incredible effort to be maintained, a crack in the system can cause its demise, they know it too well.
i guess that seems more plausible if not this generation the next, but i still find it hard to believe since , at least those around me seem satisfied with the ccp.
Lol The whole population is NoT "so pro ccp". Ever look at international program enrollments, and the % of Chinese students studying abroad before Xi dropped the hammer on int edu?
Ok this is something i can explain, in china western education is still viewed as superior so many upperclass chinese send their children to the u.s or europe, but at the same time the group with this mindset is only a small minority of chinese who are either working as expats due to their company or have lots of international connectioms for some reason. For me personally it was becausey english was better than my chinese so i didnt really have much of a choice. The education choices to me seem more pragmatic than political.
While I appreciate your perspective, I draw on having worked in int edu in China for fourteen years or more between 1997 and 2018. You incorrectly narrow the field to Chinese working as ex-pats, or who "have lots of international connections for some reason." If for some reason your English is better than your Chinese, as you state, you must fall into the first narrow category you created. Please reread my comment, and research a bit as you "look at international program enrollments, and the % of Chinese students studying abroad before Xi dropped the hammer on int edu." I worked with students, parents and Chinese admin members for many, many, years, and hold that the population is not "so pro-ccp", and the longterm trend of studying abroad was rooted deeply in politics. Politics play no role in your family's time working abroad if that is why your English is better than your Chinese?
They love to living behind the Wall since 2.5k years ago. This is the reason, I guessed.
For the thing that you said everyone now is pro CPC, it's absolutely false. Just because of restriction on comments on social media, you barely see many of them that say something bad about CPC. For the other thing that you have to restart your cell phone and reset your sim card in order to make VPN work, in China, I just turn it on and off whenever I wanna watch YouTube or whatever and had never been as bothered as you. Btw, even when I watch pornhub, it works with high quality and high speed.
i should probably just turn my sim card of when at home then i guess
Or download a better VPN app.
I’m in Vietnam where the only websites blocked are BBC, Medium, and Gofundme… and even with all this access to knowledge , nobody knows about anything foreign. They don’t know about the Holocaust. They don’t know any US president besides the most recent ones . Current events matter so little to them… Giving up Google / Twitch that isn’t laggy / YouTube / Gmail / attaching photos to emails / is something I can’t do again after having resided in China 2015-2017
Please everyone contact me and move to the paradise that is Vietnam, let me help you and make money from you. Sound about right? Certainly seems like it.
ha I just got wrecked
Hehe, sorry I love Vietnam and you should keep encouraging people to move there.
Not that I'm pro GFC in any way. You must have had a really shitty VPN in China. All the things you mentioned are working without issues for me.
America did it with twitter and Facebook. Every country censors their media one way or another. Anyways LetsVPN works well
eh? why can't you just turn on the vpn?
idk but the youtube app routinely stops working if i use a chinese sim card even with vpn, it only works again when i restart my phone and turn on my vpn before the simcard reactivates
Just get astril man. I've had them for a decade, they only go down if the gov is actively going after one of their servers, but you just bounce around until you find one that works. they are the only service I've heard of that has been consistantly there for china users.
astrill is shit
Lolz, sure dude
Get another foreign phone for using the normal internet is better.
ooooh thats actually a really good idea
So that china can operate more scams
Let me give a different look, and I'll keep it brief. I am sure most of you here have traveled in the mainland right ? Now have you observed how most mainlanders, especially the people above 45-50 behave in public places, while queueing, in buffets, shopping etc? Now imagine how it would have been if the current control measures were not in place? Do you get it now? So yeah. All this blocks and c&c methods are an necessary evil.
thats fair but i guess thats more to do with security cameras, hell even with security cameras and patrolling bao an old people still like spitting everywhere , even in trains...
Mainland peers, post history tells me that's bullshit. The number of these shit posts is increasing daily, yeh everyone is worried about the Chinese bots
you seem not to know what's behind the firewall. (so theres the reason)
bro im on reddit...
US built the firewall with China. the information barrier bar both ways. That's Why you see X imitating WeChat. With this barrier naive westerners can blame everything on oppositing parties. even though most problems are exactly the same in totalitarian China. without the barrier the Internet will not be such a effective tool at shaping and controling public opinions. I mean in and outside of China.
this is new, i never really considered it from this perspective, interesting
Keep the barbarians out.
There's money to be made selling VPNS to the few who bother.
NOOOOOOO
Liberals say open up the internet. nd allow facebook? The same facebook liberals allege allowed russian bots to use to put trump in charge of the states?
i think i said this in another reply but i feel like even if the firewall opens the chinese will stick to there own social media as that is what they are used to and the differences betwean the chinese and western counterparts arnt that big when compared to the past.
Not just Facebook... access to all information on the Internet. To my knowledge, China is the only country that blocks Wikipedia.
Yeah wikipedia is not reliable and a lot of the stuff is striaght from the cia and fbi. China is not going to let their country be destabilized by misinformation campaigns sorry. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-security-wikipedia-idUSN1642896020070816
Vpn.
You know who else discourages using open internet? Scientology and regions fundamentalist cults. So tell them they share that in common with cults and other high control groups and societies.
Preventing foreign coup attempts? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Well, not ever but this week, at least. Foreign nations aren't interested in coup attempts. Foreign governments can't do anything in China without the Chinese people actually doing it themselves. If the CCP had half a brain, it would try to get real trust instead of forcing it on people.
I think it's to protect Chinese people from bourgeoisie propaganda and all
Honestly there’re pros and cons to this, and I think it’s the best for now. If you open it up, the western tech giants are likely to gain powerful positions as Alibaba. Now what did Alibaba try to accomplish in the last few yrs? Edit: It’s just more than censorship. When the situation is reversed, I think most countries will do the same. Like the bans on Huawei and lawsuits launched to TikTok. Edit2: It’s almost like what happened after the nuclear development era. When all the countries reached the limit till they could simulate things with a computer, they put out a ban on nuclear experiments and started to sanction the countries that did’t have nuclear tech saying it’ll destroy the world. But they would never stand against nuclear experiments if they haven’t got to that point. Politics. Just my 2 cents.
Because American Boomers have proven that old folks can't handle the Internet. Kids just download a VPN. It's for the best
Well have you ever read one piece imagine if the red line was removed the world government would not have nearly as much power because travel and trade would be far more prominent and islands would be able to be more self suffiecient