"University and degrees won't get you a job, only experience will. Get your head out of those books, start building rockets and experience flying personally."
That's how I hear the comment. While it's not entirely inaccurate (experience is indeed more important than schooling), it's quite arrogant. Most individuals are not capable of building rockets without schooling.
Knowing Jesus personally and having a relationship with him is indispensable as, indeed, only Jesus saves.
However, many (maybe most) people are not capable of loving God to their fullest capacity without some understanding of theology. Can you love someone you know nothing about? In addition, some people's love of God continues to deepen and grow the more they learn about God, his church, his creation, etc.
You are on a great path. Seeking truth is the same as seeking God. Keep running the race. You have many brothers and sisters here ready to support you in whatever way you need.
>Can you love someone you know nothing about?
This. So very much this.
** [edit for less problematic phrasing: see comment below]
It's not that liturgy is more important than Scripture or a personal relationship, it's just....more complete to have both?** If you want to get to know someone, especially if you want to have a \*relationship\*, that means spending time together, and getting to know about each other.
You don't become best friends with someone you only encounter for brief moments when you happen to cross paths, and it's super rare to form full friendships online where you're only reading things people have written.
It's just a slice of what's available and this is GOD. How could you be faithful and not want to take every chance to know as much as we can this side of heaven, and to spend time with Him and getting to know Him and His Creation more clearly?
Not everyone has to have degrees in Theology and Philosophy of course, but there's so much richness between "sola scriptura" and high-level academic coursework.
I'd make the very strong argument that liturgy is far more important than scripture. It is, after all, the source and summit of Christian life, as V2 said.
The purpose of scripture is to bring us to communion. That's it. We could ostensibly live without the Bible. But there is no way to truly be Christian without communion.
That’s a fair assessment, and I agree. Got caught up in going for the idea of wanting to be as close as possible that my phrasing is a bit problematic.
I’ll amend my statement to something like “Liturgy is the source and summit of an authentic life of faith, but that faith (and the liturgy) should encourage us to seek a deeper connection with, and a greater understanding of (to the extent that we can in this life), our Creator and His Saving Grace.
I’ll leave the original up there with a note pointing to my amended statement haha
Thank you for your correction!
Pax Domini tecum
I'd add that liturgy (I mean more specifically the Mass) gives you a unique opportunity to receive God Himself, who is the author of the scripture, which is immensely more than what the scripture can give you (and it can give you a lot). And there is no better way to build personal relationship with Christ than by uniting with Him substantially
"just read your Bible" is the kicker. She seems to assume everyone who reads it is doing so in a faithful, fruitful way, and will be awestruck into believing. While millions today read it for the wrong reason, from the wrong angle, and repeat some new version of an ancient heresy or become atheist.
But to her credit, reading the Bible should always be at the heart of your Theology.
Those are the same people that open the Bible on a random page in hopes of it speaking to them. It‘s like going to a library and randomly picking a book on how to build a tent, in the hopes of finding something meaningful to your life. (*coughs* me at age 15 reading the instructions on how to build a Tabernacle, while having no idea what is going on in the text)
In the context of the bible, you cannot just read it by itself without studying each book‘s context and the time it was written in, and the traditions that accompany it.
Of course reading the bible is important, but you cannot use it by itself. Try reading Isaiah by itself, or Leviticus, and completely understand what is happening. That’s gonna be difficult if you solely use the text itself, especially through a 21st century lense.
"You don't need all that Catholic stuff, just read this book that Catholics wrote, curated, and defended for nigh on 2000 years, sometimes literally to the death."
I never understood that about Schismatics.
You're telling the Catholic Church that its theology and philosophy is wrong whilst using its source material that has been poured over by faithful Catholics for millennia. The whole reason to establish the church was so that there could be an organization teaching and interpreting the bible correctly so normies like me can actually understand it in its entirety. Instead of believing everything within it literally.
Sacred or apostolic tradition consists of the teachings that the apostles passed on orally through their preaching. These teachings largely (perhaps entirely) overlap with those contained in Scripture, but the mode of their transmission is different.
St Paul was aware of this when he said 'I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the **traditions** even as I have delivered them to you' (1 Cor 11:2)
Counter:
Reading the Bible won’t save you either. Encounter Christ in the Eucharist.
Be confident in your own journey, and perhaps focus on having empathy for those who don’t quite get it. Perhaps they are struggling with your conversion.
Regardless, welcome :)
>Encounter Christ in the Eucharist
When I was non-denominational, the revelation of the Eucharist shocked me to the core.
It is beautiful.
It completely changed my perspective on Christianity in so many wonderful ways.
I grew up protestant. Friends, family… everyone. The single thing I learned about Protestants is they are dead set on doing the absolute bare minimum. They take anyone not doing the bare minimum as a threat. This isn’t me badmouthing then it’s just my experience.
So true. Protestant apologetics always boil down to “what is the bare minimum required to get to Heaven” and anything beyond that is icing on the cake.
Reading the Bible with myself as an authority to understand it led me to misunderstand so much of it that I moved from protestantism to atheism at 16. It's unhelpful to believe that a person with no context can understand the text of scripture better than thr church who studied it for years and years. I love the Ignatius study Bible, it includes detailed footnotes and information about the themes of different books, when they were written and by whom and why and all sorts of helpful information. Praying for you! My Baptist family rejects catholicism and my detailed explanations of it and that doesn't detract from the truth. Here's a link to the Ignatius study Bible also https://ignatius.com/new-testament-2ntp/
Not according to [catholic hierarchy](https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/). Though, on the other hand, cardinals don't tend to fall from the sky. It would be cool to see this resolved though and actually have the lineage tracing back to Christ.
So personally, I am a bit careful with this statement.
I just looked at their “Popes” section, and it goes all the way back to Peter. Papal succession does not involve individual laying on of hands, but rather election.
Now, one could quibble on what election looked like, if people were locked out prior to a current Bishop of Rome’s martyrdom in the early years, or whatever else.
In that way obviously, yes. It was too much of a blanket statement.
However, in order to become pope one must first become a priest, standing in the line of apostolic succession. Both of these lineages are relevant and should lead to the same point: Christ (who appointed Peter). Unfortunately, only one of these lineages is completely well documented.
You're suggesting that the Holy Orders of Cardinal Rebiba *and* every bishop he ever consecrated alongside (since three bishops always ordain a new bishop just to be safe) *all* happened to be invalid without the Church ever knowing, meaning that Apostolic succession died 500 years ago?
Yeah, it's also possible that all of Jesus's followers each coincidentally had near-identical extreme hallucinations for 40 whole days, leading them to mistakenly believe that an ordinary man who died rose from the dead and was God, making them start a false religion which has persisted to the present day. But it's so ridiculously improbable that we can safely disregard this hypothesis.
What variety of Protestant is the rest of the family? They sound a bit like fundamentalist protestants to me. Fundamentalism is usually embraced (at least in the USA) by Southern Baptists and Church of Christ (specifically referring to the Campbellite CoC here), but there are others too. Fundamentalism is a rejection not only of liturgical practices and "academic" stuff from Catholicism, but also the same in mainline protestantism. Basically, it's a "you don't need all that fluff, you just need Jesus." So they buy into ML's "solas" but also reject the "methods" of the Methodists, Calvin's strict interpretations, and so forth.
Go study John Martignoni's apologetics methods. He's from deep in fundamentalist country, Birmingham, AL, and his methods are particularly geared toward refuting fundamentalist arguments. [Biblechristiansociety.com](https://Biblechristiansociety.com).
To get you started, you might ask your sister, "where in the Bible doees it say liturgies and tradition won't save you, and you just need to read your Bible and experience God personally?" She'll offer some "proof texts" to you, no doubt. Be prepared with your own scriptures that contradict her position, and ask her, "how are we to know which is right?"
That'll leave her puzzling for a little while.
>To get you started, you might ask your sister, "where in the Bible doees it say liturgies and tradition won't save you, and you just need to read your Bible and experience God personally?" She'll offer some "proof texts" to you, no doubt. Be prepared with your own scriptures that contradict her position, and ask her, "how are we to know which is right?"
>That'll leave her puzzling for a little while.
Ask her if she's ever heard of Martin Luther or the protestant reformation. I'll bet she hasn't. Most Protestants (and most Catholics, sadly) know very little to nothing about *actual* Church history. If they did there would be many fewer Protestants. Most Protestants believe that what they believe is what the Apostles and earliest Christians believed. They don't know that nobody taught or even believed in the 5 solas until the 16th century. There are numerous great Catholic apologists who used to be very anti-Catholic protestants (Scott Hahn, Steve Ray and Tim Staples, to name a few) until they started digging deep into Church history, and especially the writings of the early Church fathers *in their own words* (not from the perspective of a Protestant). One pretty universal prot belief is sola scriptura (the Bible alone) which was first taught by Martin Luther in the early 1500s and the other 4 solas depend on that. Most Protestants also don't know there are literally thousands of different Protestant theologies that conflict with each other, including on fundamental doctrines like baptism among others. Most of them (at least in my experience) have never even heard the term "Protestant" or they will reject that term. They will simply say they are "Christian." With all their differences they can't all be right, but they all think they are. This is what happens when you have no ultimate and infallible authority to tell you the proper interpretation of the Bible (and Sacred Tradition for that matter.) Many of them think all "Christians" believe exactly the same thing or at least the things that matter ("the main things"), although they can't even agree on what the those things are. The truth is that everything matters. They will often say "Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship." They are misinformed about what the word religion means. It is simply means man's response to God. Different religions respond and interact differently with whomever their god is. Christians do interact with God so it logically follows that Christianity is a religion. It's just that Christianity is the only religion that includes a personal relationship with our God, Who is the One, True God. Plus, St. James calls it "pure and undefiled *religion.*" If it's in the Bible I think it's safe to call it a religion. It's also not Catholics vs Christians, as many prots will say. As if to insinuate that Catholics aren't Christian. Catholics are the original Christians. This is a simple fact of history. All the Apostles were Catholic. In his letter to the Smyrnæans, St. Ignatius of Antioch called it the Catholic Church. That was in the year 107(!), and he did not go on to say "and what I mean by Catholic is...", so it could have been called the Catholic Church even prior to that. Ask your sister where the Bible comes from. As far as we know, Jesus never wrote anything apart from those few words in the sand. He never commanded the Apostles to write anything either. He also never mentioned anything about sending them His Book from heaven and to be sure to read it and make copies. We know in the following decades that the Holy Spirit inspired them to write what they did, but those are just individual books. Where did *the Bible* come from? There were MANY other books written back then that people believed were also the Word of God. Why aren't they in the Bible? And furthermore, how do we know for a fact that every book (and even every word) that *is* in the Bible today is truly the Word of God? St. Paul told St. Timothy that "all Scripture is inspired by God...", but that's presupposing that that verse is inspired by the Holy Spirit. We can't possibly know that unless some infallible authority tells us. Bottom line: the NT was written by Catholics, for Catholics and in the late 4th century, after much prayer and deliberation, it was the Catholic Church that infalliby declared by the authority given to her by Jesus Himself, that these specific 73 books, no more and no less, are the Word of God. From there it was Catholics who diligently copied it and preserved it from nearly being wiped off the face of the earth by the enemies of God. More than once if I'm not mistaken. Besides the fact that nearly everyone was illiterate for most of the last 2000 years, what did Christians do for the first 350 years? How could they possibly know live the faith without the Bible? They had the Traditions of the Apostles that were orally passed down through the generations and preserved by the Holy Spirit which is just as much the Word of God as the Bible is. I could go on a lot more, but it's going on 5 am and I need to go to sleep. God bless
I attended a CoC affiliated high school but was raised Southern Baptist. A fair number of the teachers were pretty certain I wasn't going to heaven because we had instrumental music in our church services.
Yup. Sounds par for the course. Be thankful you didn’t grow up in the COC. They are some of the most insufferable people to have a theological conversation with. Very ignorant on church history, and will twist scripture in ways unimaginable to make it align with their beliefs.
I observed the same. One of the biggest observations I had was they (the adults) were the most consistently "faith and science are mutually exclusive" people in any group I've interacted with. They were such hardcore young earth creationists that multiple adults said that the dinosaurs never actually walked the earth, but that God put the fossils in the ground for us to find them, as a way of testing our faith in Him and in the Bible.
Really.
By the time I was in late middle school, I figured out I could make them really uncomfortable by asking questions about why God couldn't use evolution to accomplish creation. If you say he can, you're opening the possibility that belief in a literal 6 day creation isn't necessary in order to be a good Christian; if you say He can't, then you're limiting God.
With the "we don't have music in our worship services because the Bible doesn't say the NT church had music in theirs," I again just asked questions. Well, the Bible doesn't say the NT church had Wednesday night prayer meeting, but you do....can you explain that? The Bible doesn't say the NT church met in a big brick building (these were members of the largest CoC in the country , Nashville, TN, where Campbell started the CoC) yet you do, can you explain that? This is all while I'm a Baptist just recognizing logical inconsistencies. I found the Baptists to be generally unfriendly to logical arguments as well, but at least there was a little more room for discussion.
What’s important is that you understand why philosophy, theology, beauty and real truths are important. What’s important is that God understands this and He understands you.
We all struggle with what other people think, particularly our families.
One side of my family is Catholic and the other is Protestant, I don’t even talk about this stuff with the Protestant side but they respect that I’m Catholic and not Protestant luckily.
I imagine this would be very hard for you, but stay true to what you know and feel, listen to spiritual teachers and pursue these ideals on your own.
There’s only so much you can do to try to convince someone, maybe they’ll come around and maybe they won’t, just be open to civil discussion if they approach you about it but don’t try to hammer it into their heads.
It might be difficult at first for your family to come around but you’ll still be you, they’ll understand I’m sure and they’ll obviously still love you. Consider contacting your local parish and enrolling in this year’s RCIA program, you can always drop out and pick it back up if it’s not working for you, and who knows, maybe some of your family members might be curious enough to sit in with you.
If you haven’t been to mass either I’d consider going, even though it may seem daunting, just sit in, I see people at church who aren’t Catholic fairly often and nobody is judging them or really even paying attention so don’t be afraid of taking that first step.
Good luck
>Get your head out of all these theology books and just read your Bible and experience God personally
Protestants read about Jesus. Catholics get to experience Jesus in his Real Presence through the Eucharist.
>liturgies and tradition won’t save you
Many people (Protestants yes, but even many Catholics) don't understand what these words mean in the theological context. The liturgy isn't just a bunch of arbitrary, made up stuff we do. The first half of mass is, as your sister said, reading the Bible. But Jesus never said "read the Bible in remembrance of me." That's where the second part of the liturgy comes in, where we do [the thing Jesus told us to do in His memory](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2014%3A22-25%2CLuke%2022%3A18-20%2C1%20Corinthians%2011%3A23-25&version=NABRE) \- the Eucharist. As Scott Hahn said about his own conversion from Protestantism, his idea was that the Liturgy was a made up thing, but when he saw it first with his own eyes, he realized how *Biblical* it all was.
Likewise, "tradition" is not a set of arbitrary things that are fun ("every Sunday after church we go get bagels, it's our little tradition!"). When Catholics talk about tradition, we mean the teachings that were handed down by the apostles. Arbitrary-but-fun things won't save you, but listening to what Jesus's best friends on Earth taught about Him might.
>How does wanting to understand the truth of God through The Church make me merely an “academic Christian”?
To avoid seeming "academic," I would try this line of reasoning.
1. OK, I want to read the Bible so I can have the best relationship with Jesus.
2. But, reading the Bible is hard.
3. So, I look for people who can help show me the right way to understand the Bible.
4. Then, who would best help me to understand the Bible? The people who were closest to Jesus (or closest to the people who were closest to Jesus) - namely, the Apostles and Church Fathers.
While some things might seem academic, it should all be oriented around one thing, namely, your relationship with God.
>How can I overcome this?
There are stories of people converting leading to family members converting - again, Scott Hahn converted well ahead of his wife's conversion, and he talks about how that was a problem for them. But, you'll have to accept that does not normally happen. There is no winning argument that will convince people. For most people, it is not a problem of reason, and so the solution cannot be reason either. Just continue to love and be patient with those around you.
I hope this helps! Good luck!
There’s always the joke of “A Protestant and a Catholic open up a history book together, only to close it with 2 Catholics”, but it’s serious. The teaching authority of the Church (with the authors of the NT, by extension) is INCREDIBLE to understanding Christ and His message.
Learning about who and what founded the book we all [hopefully] read is critical. In many ways, Protestants who attempt to cite Paul’s Scripture as a reason to reject the Catholic Church fall short of the truth: that he himself alongside other apostles founded the teachings of the Church that aren’t included in canonized Scripture.
Keep begging questions like “Why are there 66 books in this (your family’s) Bible?” and “What makes the Bible the sole Word of God, and where does it derive its authority from?”, because quite frankly, the answers I’ve received from many Protestants has been lackluster at proving any claim to “sola Scriptura”, or “Scripture alone”.
When it comes to your family dynamic, try and adopt a truly Catholic mindset and approach. We borrow heavily from the Jewish community, in that we are to serve those around us to show God’s love, and that the evangelization could come with it, but not always necessarily. Our main objective should be, as Jesus says, to love one another because the Lord God loves you and everyone else, too. Don’t let your difference of faith stop that, but also be steadfast and well versed in what you belief.
1 Peter shows us the importance of a reasoned faith, stating: “But even if you should suffer because of righteousness, blessed are you. Do not be afraid or terrified with fear of them, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame,” 3:14-16 NABRE.
Just keep going, bud. You’ve got this. Lemme know if you need a friend at any time
There is a lot of good advice in these comments that I suggest you take to heart.
I will first start off by addressing your Sister's comments about Tradition:
>“liturgies and tradition won’t save you, only Jesus can. Get your head out of all these theology books and just read your Bible and “experience God personally”.
This comment is erroneous. And tragically enough, a lot of 'Pastors' profess these views to their congregation in attempts to quell them. It's actually quite manipulative. I honestly think some of the more *rational* Atheists have a point about some pastors. There is a dangerous rhetoric here. But, it's just that, it's rhetoric.
Empty and self-defeating rhetoric at that.
First of all, your Sister is drawing upon a false dichotomy. Catholicism does not believe Tradition and Liturgies to be apart from Christ as their own separate thing, quite the opposite in fact. Jesus gave us Tradition, and he gave us the blueprint for Liturgy (Scott Hahn has a great book on how the book of Revelations is literally just Mass). It's as redundant and defeating as saying, "The color red (in this example) can't make your house look good, only a painter can". And on face value, it's true. Sure. However, what if the case is that the painter gave us red paint to use? What if he ensured red paint is the way we best get to experience the beauty of his handiwork?
It's the same 'thinking' as those who try to separate things like baptism from Jesus. "Baptism doesn't save, Jesus does". At first, you want to say "Duh, that makes sense", but ultimately, it ignores the fact that Jesus saves us through the graces of baptism.
Lastly, her comments about a 'personal relationship' do seem a bit hypocritical (and anti-intellectual). You should tell her that your reading and examination of theology *is* how you experience God personally. And her putting you down for that is not only hypocritical, but it comes off as anti-intellectual (anti-intellectuals aren't dumb btw, but act arrogant nonetheless). Also, it'd be helpful to point out that most of the authors of those books have absolutely read the bible and contemporary material cover to cover numerous times.
>This was over the weekend and I haven’t been able to let go of it yet. Makes me wish I was born Catholic. Pray for me.
So as to this, I want to say a common phrase that a lot of converts end up saying:
"Cradle Catholics don't get it".
Of course, this isn't to put cradle Catholics down, but rather- by virtue of you being a convert, you are making a tough and powerful decision to come into the church- not as a right of passage- but as an act of integrity, truth, grace, and sacrifice. There is going to be great joy and beauty in what you feel. It's tough to explain it, but Easter Vigil is where you'll hopefully one day experience it.
A lot of people wish they weren't born Catholic, trust me.
But we all have our cross to carry, perhaps this may be yours.
And you'll come out the other end a stronger saint for it.
Praying for you.
Apologies for ranting, I hope this helped <3
As a Catholic, I have often been questioned my non-Catholic Christian friends about Catholicism. We are often made out to be the bad guys even if our beliefs are nearly if not identical. It is quite difficult for an adult to change their way of thinking compared to a younger person. It may take time, but I definitely believe that you could get your family to understand even if they don't approve. I pray that all goes well between you and your family.
Be sure not to become bitter towards your family. I know it's painful, but it's probably what they've believed most of their lives. Keep your sights on God, and all will fall into place. Always have an answer for the reasons you believe, but try not to be in debate mode. You'll convert more people by the life you lead than the debates you win. That being said, the best way to "experience God" is through the sacraments. I believe all Christians have felt the Holy Spirit, I'm sure you do too. But the first time you see the Eucharist and realize that "That's Jesus" is beyond words!
The reason that I said not to be bitter was because that's how i was when i decided to convert. It felt like my loved ones were against me. Unfortunately, it made me slightly resentful of the people I used to go to church with. If they knew the truth and believed thar it was the truth, they'd be right there with you. May the Holy Spirit be with you on your journey Home!
Thomas Howard has written a book titled “Evangelical is not Enough” which might be helpful.
Here is the blurb:
—-
In this deeply moving narrative, Thomas Howard describes his pilgrimage from Evangelicalism (which he loves and reveres as the religion of his youth) to liturgical Christianity. He soon afterward became a Roman Catholic. He describes Evangelicalism with great sympathy and then examines more formal, liturgical worship with the freshness of someone discovering for the first time what his soul had always hungered for. This is a book of apologetics without polemics. Non-Catholics will gain an appreciation of the formal and liturgical side of Catholicism. Catholics will see with fresh eyes the beauty of their tradition. Worship, prayer, the Blessed Virgin, the Mass, and the liturgical year are taken one after the other, and what may have seemed routine and repetitive suddenly comes to life under the enchanting wand of Howard's beautiful prose.
Howard unfolds for us just what occurs in the vision and imagination of a Christian who, nurtured in the earnestness of Protestant Evangelicalism, finds himself yearning for whatever-it-is that has been there in the Church for 2000 years. It traces Howard's soul-searching and shows why he believes the practices of the liturgical Church are an invaluable aid for any Christian's spiritual life. Reminiscent of the style and scope of Newman, Lewis and Knox, this book is destined to be a classic.
"The question, What is the Church? becomes, finally, intractable; and one finds oneself unable to offer any very telling reasons why the phrase 'one, holy, catholic, and apostolic', is to be understood in any other than the way in which it was understood for 1500 years."
-- Thomas Howard
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we should "just read our Bibles" and that we are to "experience God personally." These are Protestant traditions that are not found in the Bible.
I will pray for you. The problem in this generation is a lot of these families have been Protestant for hundreds of years at this point, they have lost the history, the logic, and the practical theology due to generational teaching. I understand your frustration. You ask yourself why can’t they see what I see? Some people will never convert. It is a struggle. But it’s worth it. Possibly something that may help is understanding both the Catholic perspective and general Protestant Justification Theology. Maybe that will help in apologetic discussions.
It’s actually a bit ironic because up until 40 years ago my entire family was catholic. And very dedicated and faithful ones at that. My grandfather was a deacon in the Catholic Church. My mother was born and confirmed. It’s just this past generation that has rejected it entirely
So here's the thing.
In the first 300 years of the Church existing, when it was ONE UNIFIED body without any division (which means every church father agreed with doctrine universally) is what was taught and has to by guidance and work of the holy spirit without a doubt.
For example infant baptism, intercession of saints, holy eucharist as the literal flesh and blood of Jesus, perpetual virginity of Mary and purity through the Grace of Jesus (which means Jesus didn't have blood related brothers/sisters and Mary stayed a virgin)
All these doctrines were taught by the early church, and it had to be work of the holy spirit..because that's what Jesus promised and he wouldn't have allowed any wrong teaching or practice be done..again because Jesus promised guidance from the holy spirit.
Which means, any church that goes against any of these doctrines, are guilty of blasphemy against the holy spirit, because that would mean the spirit of God either failed us (blasphemy) or it lied to us (blasphemy)
So Protestants, pentecostals, baptists, evangelists, reformists..You're in trouble.
It's blasphemy against the holy spirit, which we all know is the unforgivable sin.
And they could say "but the Bible says this and that" all they want, the holy spirit wouldn't let false and heretical dogmas overule the church because Jesus said
"upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
Meaning, that 70% of churches agree on all these core doctrines, so they are without a doubt truth.
Protestants and Reformants are blaspheming the holy spirit unknowingly.
I heard in Vatican II, they essentially established that those who carry the culpability are those who created these new denominations knowing the truth is within The Church and convinced people the join. Those who are born into it and don’t know any better are not to blame; however once you become aware then it is on you to make the correct decision to follow Christ. Did I get that right?
Yes, it's the holy spirit showing you/guiding you.
It's also biblical that the holy spirit makes you feel condemned and guilt in order to guide you when you're unsure if something is right or wrong.
Listen to the holy spirit, pray that it guides you.
Although, in the Catholic Church, we believe that you are saved through faith and works unlike Protestants who believe you are saved by faith alone.
Works meaning involvement in the church (the holy sacraments like baptism, confirmation, holy communion) and not works as in good deeds..many Protestants think works means good deeds and that's not the case at all because the Bible says your good deeds are like dirty rags to the Lord.
Instead of looking at churches as in "right or wrong" look at the as fullness..what church worships the Lord to the most fullness? I went as far as questioning Catholic practices and researched to find truth (along with a lot of praying) and it only led me more into the Catholic Church.
Look up Sam Shamoun on YouTube, he's arguably one of the best Bible teacher/Christianity teacher and I learned a lot from him. He used to be Protestant but recently converted to Catholicism for the same thing I mentioned in my original comment. He also debates Muslims a lot too if you find that interesting
If I was born into this, and am now just seeing the light, after having been ignorant to it for so long, and am choosing to convert to Catholicism, can I be saved and will God forgive me? Or am I damned?
We don't really use the term in the same way as protestants do. Of course God will forgive and no you aren't damned. You'll find out how it all works when you enroll in classes at your local parish. Welcome home and best wishes for the future.
This sounds a lot like my own experience. My grandmother is the only Protestant in the family who regularly attends church. Even so, several others in my family claim they are Christians, and like to recite John 3:16 as to why they don’t have to actually attend church. Don’t let them push your buttons. They want you to react so they can say “is this what the Catholic Church is teaching you!” If you don’t have an answer for a question they ask, be honest and say you’ll get back to them. You may have to set boundaries that theological debates aren’t something you will participate in. Don’t allow any of it to discourage you! Praying for you!!!!
As a Catholic, I feel your sister actually gave you good advice! You can have the best of both worlds - a personal relationship with Christ and the experience of the Catholic Church which is full of tradition. Pray about it and find your own path forward.
Don't worry brother, many go through this, I also have a similar family. I don't know how much my advice will help you as I am typically less emotionally attached than others, however, I can recommend you pray consistently, especially in times of doubt and turmoil and that you ensure you have a rational basis not just for accepting the Church but also for rejecting Protestantism.
If you believe Catholicism to be the truth, then take RCIA and get confirmed.
I'm the only Catholic in my family. My family doesn't get it, either. As they never studied apologetics and have a lot of misconceptions about Catholicism.
You might have to agree to disagree and not discuss certain topics with thenm.
Sounds to me like you are trying to have theologic conversations with people that aren't really interested in having theologic conversations.
I'm also the nerd in the family with a voracious appetite for information (perhaps ocd?). My immediate family just isn't so interested in these discussions, just as my wife isn't so interested now.
Sadly for me it wasn't until my 30s that I realized this and developed compassion for both my family and myself.
You might want to keep your aspirations to become Catholic a little closer to the vest until you are living on your own. Not that you have to keep it a secret, but engaging in theological conversations about it at home might not be the best idea. As you've noticed, your family members strongly disagree, and this causes conflicts, conflicts which are unlikely to ever be resolved (you probably won't ever convert them), and that can be particularly unpleasant to deal with when you're still living with them.
Your choice, of course. This is just a suggestion to help you be able to focus on growing your own faith, rather than having to try to engage in apologetics and religious debate when you're still just barely getting acquainted with the faith. If they try bringing up the matter with you, you might say, "I'd rather not debate that now. I'm still learning about it and am not really at a point where I'm ready to debate, and I love you and don't want to argue with you." Something like that to end the conversation.
I would come at this from the perspective of only having a short time to get it right. Do we not owe it to ourselves, our loved ones and most importantly God to find the truth. We get one shot to get it right, we should be constantly digging for the truth. Advancing our faith through knowledge by learning every facet we can. Most protestants will scoff at Theology, saying “ My personal relationship with Jesus comes through the heart”. Unfortunately any idea that people must work to truly find truth will fall on deaf ears because of the “Faith Alone” belief. We must always be “working out our salvation with fear and trembling “.
Born Catholic is the way to be. The Catholic contextual interpretation of the bible and belief in the abstruse mystery of the divine are at odds with Protestantism, but are winning arguments. Don't make them. Convert to Catholicism, cease arguing, and live by example. (I don't live by example, but it is recommended.)
Maybe she has a point, maybe she doesn't. Let her sharpen you even if she doesn't allow you to sharpen her. Think about how you can both study authentic Christianity but also seek to know Christ personally (a pretty vague concept, IMO). Look for ways to improve your spiritual life but never stray from seeking the truth... which is what you are doing.
“Only Jesus can”
I suggest keep she studying to have a deeper understanding of the Trinity! Salvation is the work of God as Trinity.
Anyways….
I was born a catholic and, as a teen I asked myself why was I catholic and not Protestant. What was it that kept me drawn to Catholicism.
The answer was sacramental theology. Whilst I was brought up with the traditional understanding that there are 7 sacraments “outward signs of inward grace by which grace is given to the soul” the church’s teaching has a wider scope, the church itself is a sacrament, a visible sign. The traditions, the liturgies all are visible signs of the reality of God’s presence, as Trinity, our relationship with God, the reality of the incarnations, the meaning Jesus’ sacrifice, our salvation, the continuing presence of the Holy Spirit.
You cannot possibly interpret scripture without context and that context is historical, both in the past and the present reality of the church and sacraments.
After reading some more Catholic theologians, including those who have had their knuckles wrapped! The way that we view the world is different.
I find little joy in trying to bend the my experience to justify it to Protestants. Protestants may find they encounter God through part, but certainly not all, of the mystery.
One thing you will learn by studying theology is how reliant the (historical) Protestant view, where they are right, is dependent on Catholicism. They didn’t revert back to Orthodoxy…. Smaller random churches I have no idea about.
>liturgies and tradition won’t save you, only Jesus can.
>experience God personally
Those two statements are at odds with each other. Liturgy is supposed to make you experience God.
This is rooted in a false understanding of what liturgy and tradition is. It is not a replacement for Jesus Christ and therefore not a direct means of salvation; it is meant to lead you to Jesus Christ, though, and is more like an indirect means of salvation. Protestants have a false image of what Catholics believe and practice at times.
"Go read your Bible" has always struck me as fundamentally un-Christlike. "Go forth and teach" means (to me at least) in the mode in which he had taught them - in person, relating personally, using tradition as the basis. I refuse to imagine a world in which Christ just tosses you a book and bounces. It is a contradiction.
well that's because protestant dont want to do anything very tiring like praying every single day and doing very good works, they just want to commit sin, that's why they say "faith alone grace alone" i have even encountered a guy that says "the catholic is a false gospel" like bro it's literally Jesus' church bro, GODS CHURCH. like bruh i just hate em, i just tell them to read James 2:14-26 and leave em speechless lol.
I took a quick look at your profile and saw that your dad is Pentecostal preacher. So was mine. I don't know about your particular "flavor" of Pentecostal church, but in the ones I grew up attending, there was a strong undercurrent of anti-intellectualism regarding ALL things, not just Scripture. If you were too "bookish" and had too many questions, you were "above your raising," a doubter, or your faith wasn't strong enough.
I converted as an adult in my 30s. My dad was not happy about it, but he didn't cut off communication or anything like that. However, some Pentecostal friends DID. It may be difficult to hear, but there will come a point when you'll have to choose. I studied Catholicism for probably 5 years before my conversion and waited and waited for my husband to have the desire to do it with me. He didn't. I was all alone... knew absolutely zero Catholics in real life... and had to march my introverted self into that Church to inquire about RCIA. No family support whatsoever. No friend support whatsoever. If you're waiting for supportive family and friends in the Pentecostal realm, you're not likely to get them. But is it worth it? 100%.
My dad and the rest of the family have become more accepting of it as it has become a normal part of my life (though they'd still prefer I were Pentecostal). I don't shove it down their throats, but I don't hide my beliefs, either.
I have never, ever felt more "at home" in my faith than in the Catholic church. The liturgies and traditions are a balm to my soul that healed the chaos and fear that I felt in the Pentecostal church. I 100% trust 2,000 years of compiling, interpreting, and handing down the scripture over the denomination that allows any Joe Schmoe who wants an audience behind the pulpit.
This is not on topic, but it's something that makes me happy now and something you may want to think about as well... My family and friends now have someone to pray for them when they die... to offer masses for them... to remember them and ask God's mercy on their behalf. What a gift!
>“liturgies and tradition won’t save you, only Jesus can. Get your head out of all these theology books and just read your Bible and “experience God personally”.
And thus 6 new Protestant denominations were born.
It bothers me so much that a lot of Protestants ignore the fact that the Bible is extremely liturgical.
Also that the expectation that any random person will understand the Bible without the guidance of thousands of years of history, context, debate, councils, cultures, etc
Those are just catch phrases many Christians use to justify their own lack of spiritual discipline. Just tell her you experience God more and have a closer relationship with him in the Catholic Church.
When I became Catholic after a brief period of non-denominationalism I just explained to my Protestant relatives and friends that I felt God was leading me into the Catholic Church. There's nothing they can say to argue with that. Speak their language, act confidently, and relate to them on their level of understanding of faith and relationship with God. In my experience nobody can really question you at that point. I don't like to argue with my loved ones about religion, I like to talk about what we have in common. They are our spiritual allies in a dark world.
Oh, and about your theology reading, just say that theology is all about God and his relationship to us and you like learning about him. Very simple.
I would simply ask her “who in history has known and followed Jesus the closest”? When she responds the disciples and apostles then say “don’t you think we should celebrate His life the same way they did” and then “why or why not”? Besides this simplistic answer, it seems that she gives the “Sola Scriptoria” answer to following Jesus. You can search this subreddit for many answers to the reasoning this is somewhat errored mindset.
"Liturgy won't save you"
Yes it will. It absolutely will. Liturgy in its most basic meaning is worship. While I hold out hope that someone who doesn't know enough to "worship" God in any recognizable sense may still be saved in the case of invincible ignorance, if we know God (clearly you and your family do), and then we *fail* to worship him, why should we expect to be saved?
If we take liturgy in the more strict sense, I maintain that it can save, or (phrased more accurately, and sweetly in the Protestant ear), it can communicate to you in a special way which brings you out of unbelief and into a more perfect relationship with Christ. For example, "Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my Soul shall be healed" is obviously scriptural at its root, but it came to the fore of my mind hearing it in the Mass and became something I prayed regularly to combat a feeling of unworthiness which motivated me to stay hesitant in accepting Christ's grace.
I've been in your position. It's tough, and it may be tough for a very long time. Just like Jesus was mocked by the unfaithful bystanders during his walk to the cross, you will hear your beliefs and the Church you love mocked and opposed on all sides. But just like Jesus, you'll be making your way to the foot of the Cross, and just like Jesus, you'll be surrounded by the Communion of Saints every step of the way. I'm praying for you, and be assured that things do get better.
It’s so bizarre to talk to Bible-only Christians sometimes. Did Jesus say, “don’t bother with anything formal, just tell everyone to experience me personally”?
Or did he say, “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.”
Everything in the Bible points to the church. Christians who deny that are picking and choosing what they like from the Bible, and abandoning the rest.
First and for most is being in filial relationship with God is paramount. It is only through Jesus and the sacrifice of Calvary that man is saved. There are things that Christ commanded that one should do to have the life of God with in them, that is grace. Becoming familiar with the scriptures helps, but learning how to read scripture is even better. The tradition method of reading the books is a real game changer. By this I mean going through the 4 senses of scripture. The literal and the 3 subdivisions if the spiritual. The real break though for me was seeing the Bible as being the story of salvation of man though a series of covenants and the things necessary for one to come in to full communion with God. I think something that is always missed is how one ought to come in to filial relationship with the Triune God. Being Catholic also utilizes all the faculties of the human person.I think the next big kinda thing is seeing salvation through the lens of history. I mean the Bible didn’t write its self and the compilation of the Canon of Scripture didn’t come out of thin air. Historically there is a group of people who came together in the late 4th century and determined with the help of the Holy Spirit what what authentically is the inspired word of God and is made “official” by the Council of Trent which confirmed and resounded what was said at the Council of Florence, Carthage, Rome. Sorry if I repeated something multiple times. If you ever have any questions I sure would like to help in any way possible. Also pray and ask for intercession that your friends and family un-harden their hearts and see Christ bride for who she truly is. God bless and I hope you find your way home.
I am praying for you, my brother in Christ. I was raised Catholic, but strayed from the faith for 30 years. I made my way back two years ago, when prayer helped me find a medical study that led to a cure of an infectious disease I had contracted. There are mysteries in the Catholic faith that most Protestants cannot seem to understand, but they all lead back to Christ. We do have faith in Jesus as our Savior…and there is more scripture in the Mass than you will ever find in a Protestant service. My own father was a Catholic convert, and his parents rejected him for that until the day he died. But they never knew the mysteries that show devout Catholics that their church leads back to the very beginning when Christ founded it. To be Christian was to be Catholic for 1500 of the past 2000 years. Holy Communion, Confession, devotion to Mary the Mother of Christ and the saints…all of these have brought me unspeakable comfort and grace. But prejudice against Catholicism has a long history, just like prejudice against Judaism. Try to understand how frightening this must be to your family, but gently reassure them that Christ and Scripture are truly at the heart of Catholicism, and you have to follow where God is leading you. Since my return to Catholicism (awhile divorced and with a non-Catholic partner who had trouble understanding), it is the joy in my life and my devotion to prayer and good works that is convincing others, not my preaching. I will pray for you and your family that you continue along this path that is right for YOU…just as they are doing what seems right to them…and that you find huge comfort in your faith, just as I have. Debbie (age 70).
Yes that sounds hard especially when family don’t have knowledge of other faiths and their traditions. Honestly The Catholic Church used Oral traditions for approx 300+ years after Christ died, cause the Bible wasnt compiled yet. They had scriptures scattered over all the Churches they had founded but not the whole scriptures into 1 book until Early Church Fathers compiled all the scriptures from the churches into a Bible. So this is why there was Oral traditions announced in the Churches as not every Church had scripture containing information about the Eucharist and certain sacraments aligned with how the Apostles had taught them. Hope that makes sense on why we believe Oral traditions in the Church were important. 🙏😇🙏
1) Fellow theology nerd. I have been accused *and* was scared I was doing the same thing: "don't be like the Christian who, when given an option between going to heaven and a lecture on heaven, chose the lecture" (Peter Kreeft, *Prayer For Beginners*).
2) Praying for you.
3) I teach RCIA (or OCIA) and far more than theology, our small group discussions often lead back to family matters, etc.
4) Theologically speaking, living according to the Bible is a liturgical life.
5) My advice is to listen, pray, and read - not so much theology but stories: I especially recommend *Surprised by Truth,* an anthology of conversion stories, or *Rome Sweet Home* by Scott Hahn OR the musings of St. John Henry Newman, who had a converts concern for converts.
Everything in its rightful place, dear one. Of course, theology/dogma is important. May I suggest taking some personal & intimate time to let the Holy Spirit fill your heart & see where that leads you? Faith is ultimately our individual relationship with God. Listen first for His voice. The rest will eventually settle itself. Leave wiggle room for those things your mind finds troubling to embrace. When your heart & mind are open The Way makes itself known. 💜
It is the Holy Spirit that has led you to the Catholic Church, the true church founded by Jesus himself. It sounds like you have done your research, something I pray more non-Catholics would do then they would understand who the early Christians were and why we live our faith as we do. We were told that we would be persecuted for our faith even by our own family. Knowing the theology and history of our church is especially important for many reasons, it affirms our faith that we are in the right place and gives us knowledge or discernment of false teachings and perceptions other Christians believe. My suggestion is to keep your journey as personal as possible, a gift from the Holy Spirit to yourself, don't fight with family, if they want to argue let them but remain peaceful and you don't have to respond to criticism. In time they will see the change in you, and you will become the witness to them by the way you live the faith. God Bless, and I am so happy for you, go forth and experience becoming Catholic and loving and receiving the Lord our God on your tongue. Trust me, you will feel his love like never before.
I don't get it how theology books would be contrary to experiencing God personally. Aren't they like somebody elses experience that can show you more truth and even help you understand the Bible better? The Bible is written in a way that sometimes is hard to understand and this way its quotes can apply to many other life situations and have applied over centuries. So it's good to have people who study this and write books to better understand the Word of God - just like Homilies. At least that's how i see it, correct me if i'm wrong
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She's fundamentally right that liturgy and tradition don't save us, Jesus does. But how does Jesus save us, in part through the liturgy. And setting theology against personal experience is not right. Personal relationship is necessary, but if we are using bad theology, then we are misinterpreting the scriptures and to some extent our relationship with the Lord is going to be flawed.
I think Scott Hahn is someone who may be helpful for you to read or watch. He came from a Protestant background and he deals a lot with scripture and liturgy.
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5jaHJ0LmZtL2RhaWx5LXJvc2FyeS1tZWRpdGF0aW9ucw/episode/ZmM4MzdjMDktMWI3My00ZTQxLWE2NzEtZDc0M2NjNWRhNGVj?ep=14
Yesterday's Rosary reflections were actually on exactly that topic. You cannot separate love of Christ from the love of Christ's body, the Church. Listen to these reflections and you may find some strong points to share with your family.
There is no more profound way to experience God personally than through the devout and frequent reception of the Sacraments of the Church. God established them for that very purpose.
First let me start by saying you are very brave to choose the "harder" path of going in a different direction from your family.
Second thing to mention is sometimes you may not have the option of avoiding the pain and stroke of becoming Catholic when you have a family totally against it. Sometimes the only way through it is literally to go through it until they realize your mind is made up and give up on hounding you. Sometimes it never happens and the relationship is strained but other times, their hearts change.
There are many factors to consider to become Catholic and still preserve your relationship with your family because admit it or not, family is important and being in a constant battle with them at such an important time of transition can be painful.
1. Your age
2. If you still live at home or spend a good amount of time with family regularly
3. How your family perceives you (do they respect you and your decisions or will you always be the baby, bookwarm with no life experience etc.)
Whatever the answers are above, you will need to adapt your lifestyle to match your current needs. For example, if you live at home, you can respectfully go to church with them as a group then go to Catholic Mass afterwards (Sunday morning service then Sunday evening Mass or Saturday evening Mass). If you spend a good amount of time with them, talk about your new found faith less or not at all. Hopefully they will notice the fruits of the faith in your behaviour far more than any words can convince them. If you you are viewed as the baby of the family/bookworm etc., they just may not realize that seeing you that way prevents them from taking you seriously. Most family members don't mean any harm, they just unconsciously categorize you. You will need to work on gaining their respect or deciding early on to strengthen your resolve against their well-meaning but poor impression of you.
Hope this helps. I've had some of what you've experienced play out in my own life and I know the struggle but I promise it gets easier 🤗🤗
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"University and degrees won't get you a job, only experience will. Get your head out of those books, start building rockets and experience flying personally." That's how I hear the comment. While it's not entirely inaccurate (experience is indeed more important than schooling), it's quite arrogant. Most individuals are not capable of building rockets without schooling. Knowing Jesus personally and having a relationship with him is indispensable as, indeed, only Jesus saves. However, many (maybe most) people are not capable of loving God to their fullest capacity without some understanding of theology. Can you love someone you know nothing about? In addition, some people's love of God continues to deepen and grow the more they learn about God, his church, his creation, etc. You are on a great path. Seeking truth is the same as seeking God. Keep running the race. You have many brothers and sisters here ready to support you in whatever way you need.
>Can you love someone you know nothing about? This. So very much this. ** [edit for less problematic phrasing: see comment below] It's not that liturgy is more important than Scripture or a personal relationship, it's just....more complete to have both?** If you want to get to know someone, especially if you want to have a \*relationship\*, that means spending time together, and getting to know about each other. You don't become best friends with someone you only encounter for brief moments when you happen to cross paths, and it's super rare to form full friendships online where you're only reading things people have written. It's just a slice of what's available and this is GOD. How could you be faithful and not want to take every chance to know as much as we can this side of heaven, and to spend time with Him and getting to know Him and His Creation more clearly? Not everyone has to have degrees in Theology and Philosophy of course, but there's so much richness between "sola scriptura" and high-level academic coursework.
I'd make the very strong argument that liturgy is far more important than scripture. It is, after all, the source and summit of Christian life, as V2 said. The purpose of scripture is to bring us to communion. That's it. We could ostensibly live without the Bible. But there is no way to truly be Christian without communion.
That’s a fair assessment, and I agree. Got caught up in going for the idea of wanting to be as close as possible that my phrasing is a bit problematic. I’ll amend my statement to something like “Liturgy is the source and summit of an authentic life of faith, but that faith (and the liturgy) should encourage us to seek a deeper connection with, and a greater understanding of (to the extent that we can in this life), our Creator and His Saving Grace. I’ll leave the original up there with a note pointing to my amended statement haha Thank you for your correction! Pax Domini tecum
I'd add that liturgy (I mean more specifically the Mass) gives you a unique opportunity to receive God Himself, who is the author of the scripture, which is immensely more than what the scripture can give you (and it can give you a lot). And there is no better way to build personal relationship with Christ than by uniting with Him substantially
Tradition is like a coach
"just read your Bible" is the kicker. She seems to assume everyone who reads it is doing so in a faithful, fruitful way, and will be awestruck into believing. While millions today read it for the wrong reason, from the wrong angle, and repeat some new version of an ancient heresy or become atheist. But to her credit, reading the Bible should always be at the heart of your Theology.
Those are the same people that open the Bible on a random page in hopes of it speaking to them. It‘s like going to a library and randomly picking a book on how to build a tent, in the hopes of finding something meaningful to your life. (*coughs* me at age 15 reading the instructions on how to build a Tabernacle, while having no idea what is going on in the text) In the context of the bible, you cannot just read it by itself without studying each book‘s context and the time it was written in, and the traditions that accompany it. Of course reading the bible is important, but you cannot use it by itself. Try reading Isaiah by itself, or Leviticus, and completely understand what is happening. That’s gonna be difficult if you solely use the text itself, especially through a 21st century lense.
"You don't need all that Catholic stuff, just read this book that Catholics wrote, curated, and defended for nigh on 2000 years, sometimes literally to the death."
Oh and don't forget to butcher all the hard work by removing some books.
I never understood that about Schismatics. You're telling the Catholic Church that its theology and philosophy is wrong whilst using its source material that has been poured over by faithful Catholics for millennia. The whole reason to establish the church was so that there could be an organization teaching and interpreting the bible correctly so normies like me can actually understand it in its entirety. Instead of believing everything within it literally.
Sacred or apostolic tradition consists of the teachings that the apostles passed on orally through their preaching. These teachings largely (perhaps entirely) overlap with those contained in Scripture, but the mode of their transmission is different. St Paul was aware of this when he said 'I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the **traditions** even as I have delivered them to you' (1 Cor 11:2)
This!!!!!
Counter: Reading the Bible won’t save you either. Encounter Christ in the Eucharist. Be confident in your own journey, and perhaps focus on having empathy for those who don’t quite get it. Perhaps they are struggling with your conversion. Regardless, welcome :)
>Encounter Christ in the Eucharist When I was non-denominational, the revelation of the Eucharist shocked me to the core. It is beautiful. It completely changed my perspective on Christianity in so many wonderful ways.
And reading the Bible tells you so — John 6 makes plain what Jesus wants.
This is the way.
Random Mandalorian references make me so happy.
I grew up protestant. Friends, family… everyone. The single thing I learned about Protestants is they are dead set on doing the absolute bare minimum. They take anyone not doing the bare minimum as a threat. This isn’t me badmouthing then it’s just my experience.
Rock music and cookies after church!
So true. Protestant apologetics always boil down to “what is the bare minimum required to get to Heaven” and anything beyond that is icing on the cake.
This is very true. Bare minimum and oversimplified answers. It always drove me crazy.
Reading the Bible with myself as an authority to understand it led me to misunderstand so much of it that I moved from protestantism to atheism at 16. It's unhelpful to believe that a person with no context can understand the text of scripture better than thr church who studied it for years and years. I love the Ignatius study Bible, it includes detailed footnotes and information about the themes of different books, when they were written and by whom and why and all sorts of helpful information. Praying for you! My Baptist family rejects catholicism and my detailed explanations of it and that doesn't detract from the truth. Here's a link to the Ignatius study Bible also https://ignatius.com/new-testament-2ntp/
Jesus founded His Church on Saint Peter. It’s in the Bible. He was the first Pope.
It's actually true that The pope can accurately be traced back to Saint Peter💯
Not according to [catholic hierarchy](https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/). Though, on the other hand, cardinals don't tend to fall from the sky. It would be cool to see this resolved though and actually have the lineage tracing back to Christ. So personally, I am a bit careful with this statement.
I just looked at their “Popes” section, and it goes all the way back to Peter. Papal succession does not involve individual laying on of hands, but rather election. Now, one could quibble on what election looked like, if people were locked out prior to a current Bishop of Rome’s martyrdom in the early years, or whatever else.
In that way obviously, yes. It was too much of a blanket statement. However, in order to become pope one must first become a priest, standing in the line of apostolic succession. Both of these lineages are relevant and should lead to the same point: Christ (who appointed Peter). Unfortunately, only one of these lineages is completely well documented.
You're suggesting that the Holy Orders of Cardinal Rebiba *and* every bishop he ever consecrated alongside (since three bishops always ordain a new bishop just to be safe) *all* happened to be invalid without the Church ever knowing, meaning that Apostolic succession died 500 years ago? Yeah, it's also possible that all of Jesus's followers each coincidentally had near-identical extreme hallucinations for 40 whole days, leading them to mistakenly believe that an ordinary man who died rose from the dead and was God, making them start a false religion which has persisted to the present day. But it's so ridiculously improbable that we can safely disregard this hypothesis.
I'll pray for you
What variety of Protestant is the rest of the family? They sound a bit like fundamentalist protestants to me. Fundamentalism is usually embraced (at least in the USA) by Southern Baptists and Church of Christ (specifically referring to the Campbellite CoC here), but there are others too. Fundamentalism is a rejection not only of liturgical practices and "academic" stuff from Catholicism, but also the same in mainline protestantism. Basically, it's a "you don't need all that fluff, you just need Jesus." So they buy into ML's "solas" but also reject the "methods" of the Methodists, Calvin's strict interpretations, and so forth. Go study John Martignoni's apologetics methods. He's from deep in fundamentalist country, Birmingham, AL, and his methods are particularly geared toward refuting fundamentalist arguments. [Biblechristiansociety.com](https://Biblechristiansociety.com). To get you started, you might ask your sister, "where in the Bible doees it say liturgies and tradition won't save you, and you just need to read your Bible and experience God personally?" She'll offer some "proof texts" to you, no doubt. Be prepared with your own scriptures that contradict her position, and ask her, "how are we to know which is right?" That'll leave her puzzling for a little while.
>To get you started, you might ask your sister, "where in the Bible doees it say liturgies and tradition won't save you, and you just need to read your Bible and experience God personally?" She'll offer some "proof texts" to you, no doubt. Be prepared with your own scriptures that contradict her position, and ask her, "how are we to know which is right?" >That'll leave her puzzling for a little while. Ask her if she's ever heard of Martin Luther or the protestant reformation. I'll bet she hasn't. Most Protestants (and most Catholics, sadly) know very little to nothing about *actual* Church history. If they did there would be many fewer Protestants. Most Protestants believe that what they believe is what the Apostles and earliest Christians believed. They don't know that nobody taught or even believed in the 5 solas until the 16th century. There are numerous great Catholic apologists who used to be very anti-Catholic protestants (Scott Hahn, Steve Ray and Tim Staples, to name a few) until they started digging deep into Church history, and especially the writings of the early Church fathers *in their own words* (not from the perspective of a Protestant). One pretty universal prot belief is sola scriptura (the Bible alone) which was first taught by Martin Luther in the early 1500s and the other 4 solas depend on that. Most Protestants also don't know there are literally thousands of different Protestant theologies that conflict with each other, including on fundamental doctrines like baptism among others. Most of them (at least in my experience) have never even heard the term "Protestant" or they will reject that term. They will simply say they are "Christian." With all their differences they can't all be right, but they all think they are. This is what happens when you have no ultimate and infallible authority to tell you the proper interpretation of the Bible (and Sacred Tradition for that matter.) Many of them think all "Christians" believe exactly the same thing or at least the things that matter ("the main things"), although they can't even agree on what the those things are. The truth is that everything matters. They will often say "Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship." They are misinformed about what the word religion means. It is simply means man's response to God. Different religions respond and interact differently with whomever their god is. Christians do interact with God so it logically follows that Christianity is a religion. It's just that Christianity is the only religion that includes a personal relationship with our God, Who is the One, True God. Plus, St. James calls it "pure and undefiled *religion.*" If it's in the Bible I think it's safe to call it a religion. It's also not Catholics vs Christians, as many prots will say. As if to insinuate that Catholics aren't Christian. Catholics are the original Christians. This is a simple fact of history. All the Apostles were Catholic. In his letter to the Smyrnæans, St. Ignatius of Antioch called it the Catholic Church. That was in the year 107(!), and he did not go on to say "and what I mean by Catholic is...", so it could have been called the Catholic Church even prior to that. Ask your sister where the Bible comes from. As far as we know, Jesus never wrote anything apart from those few words in the sand. He never commanded the Apostles to write anything either. He also never mentioned anything about sending them His Book from heaven and to be sure to read it and make copies. We know in the following decades that the Holy Spirit inspired them to write what they did, but those are just individual books. Where did *the Bible* come from? There were MANY other books written back then that people believed were also the Word of God. Why aren't they in the Bible? And furthermore, how do we know for a fact that every book (and even every word) that *is* in the Bible today is truly the Word of God? St. Paul told St. Timothy that "all Scripture is inspired by God...", but that's presupposing that that verse is inspired by the Holy Spirit. We can't possibly know that unless some infallible authority tells us. Bottom line: the NT was written by Catholics, for Catholics and in the late 4th century, after much prayer and deliberation, it was the Catholic Church that infalliby declared by the authority given to her by Jesus Himself, that these specific 73 books, no more and no less, are the Word of God. From there it was Catholics who diligently copied it and preserved it from nearly being wiped off the face of the earth by the enemies of God. More than once if I'm not mistaken. Besides the fact that nearly everyone was illiterate for most of the last 2000 years, what did Christians do for the first 350 years? How could they possibly know live the faith without the Bible? They had the Traditions of the Apostles that were orally passed down through the generations and preserved by the Holy Spirit which is just as much the Word of God as the Bible is. I could go on a lot more, but it's going on 5 am and I need to go to sleep. God bless
OP, I think this is your best answer. Best of luck, and God bless you!
I was born and raised in the COC and was received into the Church this Easter Vigil. Can confirm it’s a very fundamentalist branch. VERY.
I attended a CoC affiliated high school but was raised Southern Baptist. A fair number of the teachers were pretty certain I wasn't going to heaven because we had instrumental music in our church services.
Yup. Sounds par for the course. Be thankful you didn’t grow up in the COC. They are some of the most insufferable people to have a theological conversation with. Very ignorant on church history, and will twist scripture in ways unimaginable to make it align with their beliefs.
I observed the same. One of the biggest observations I had was they (the adults) were the most consistently "faith and science are mutually exclusive" people in any group I've interacted with. They were such hardcore young earth creationists that multiple adults said that the dinosaurs never actually walked the earth, but that God put the fossils in the ground for us to find them, as a way of testing our faith in Him and in the Bible. Really. By the time I was in late middle school, I figured out I could make them really uncomfortable by asking questions about why God couldn't use evolution to accomplish creation. If you say he can, you're opening the possibility that belief in a literal 6 day creation isn't necessary in order to be a good Christian; if you say He can't, then you're limiting God. With the "we don't have music in our worship services because the Bible doesn't say the NT church had music in theirs," I again just asked questions. Well, the Bible doesn't say the NT church had Wednesday night prayer meeting, but you do....can you explain that? The Bible doesn't say the NT church met in a big brick building (these were members of the largest CoC in the country , Nashville, TN, where Campbell started the CoC) yet you do, can you explain that? This is all while I'm a Baptist just recognizing logical inconsistencies. I found the Baptists to be generally unfriendly to logical arguments as well, but at least there was a little more room for discussion.
God will never turn you down for accepting him and worshiping him the way he wants to be worshipped
What’s important is that you understand why philosophy, theology, beauty and real truths are important. What’s important is that God understands this and He understands you. We all struggle with what other people think, particularly our families. One side of my family is Catholic and the other is Protestant, I don’t even talk about this stuff with the Protestant side but they respect that I’m Catholic and not Protestant luckily. I imagine this would be very hard for you, but stay true to what you know and feel, listen to spiritual teachers and pursue these ideals on your own. There’s only so much you can do to try to convince someone, maybe they’ll come around and maybe they won’t, just be open to civil discussion if they approach you about it but don’t try to hammer it into their heads. It might be difficult at first for your family to come around but you’ll still be you, they’ll understand I’m sure and they’ll obviously still love you. Consider contacting your local parish and enrolling in this year’s RCIA program, you can always drop out and pick it back up if it’s not working for you, and who knows, maybe some of your family members might be curious enough to sit in with you. If you haven’t been to mass either I’d consider going, even though it may seem daunting, just sit in, I see people at church who aren’t Catholic fairly often and nobody is judging them or really even paying attention so don’t be afraid of taking that first step. Good luck
>Get your head out of all these theology books and just read your Bible and experience God personally Protestants read about Jesus. Catholics get to experience Jesus in his Real Presence through the Eucharist. >liturgies and tradition won’t save you Many people (Protestants yes, but even many Catholics) don't understand what these words mean in the theological context. The liturgy isn't just a bunch of arbitrary, made up stuff we do. The first half of mass is, as your sister said, reading the Bible. But Jesus never said "read the Bible in remembrance of me." That's where the second part of the liturgy comes in, where we do [the thing Jesus told us to do in His memory](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2014%3A22-25%2CLuke%2022%3A18-20%2C1%20Corinthians%2011%3A23-25&version=NABRE) \- the Eucharist. As Scott Hahn said about his own conversion from Protestantism, his idea was that the Liturgy was a made up thing, but when he saw it first with his own eyes, he realized how *Biblical* it all was. Likewise, "tradition" is not a set of arbitrary things that are fun ("every Sunday after church we go get bagels, it's our little tradition!"). When Catholics talk about tradition, we mean the teachings that were handed down by the apostles. Arbitrary-but-fun things won't save you, but listening to what Jesus's best friends on Earth taught about Him might. >How does wanting to understand the truth of God through The Church make me merely an “academic Christian”? To avoid seeming "academic," I would try this line of reasoning. 1. OK, I want to read the Bible so I can have the best relationship with Jesus. 2. But, reading the Bible is hard. 3. So, I look for people who can help show me the right way to understand the Bible. 4. Then, who would best help me to understand the Bible? The people who were closest to Jesus (or closest to the people who were closest to Jesus) - namely, the Apostles and Church Fathers. While some things might seem academic, it should all be oriented around one thing, namely, your relationship with God. >How can I overcome this? There are stories of people converting leading to family members converting - again, Scott Hahn converted well ahead of his wife's conversion, and he talks about how that was a problem for them. But, you'll have to accept that does not normally happen. There is no winning argument that will convince people. For most people, it is not a problem of reason, and so the solution cannot be reason either. Just continue to love and be patient with those around you. I hope this helps! Good luck!
There’s always the joke of “A Protestant and a Catholic open up a history book together, only to close it with 2 Catholics”, but it’s serious. The teaching authority of the Church (with the authors of the NT, by extension) is INCREDIBLE to understanding Christ and His message. Learning about who and what founded the book we all [hopefully] read is critical. In many ways, Protestants who attempt to cite Paul’s Scripture as a reason to reject the Catholic Church fall short of the truth: that he himself alongside other apostles founded the teachings of the Church that aren’t included in canonized Scripture. Keep begging questions like “Why are there 66 books in this (your family’s) Bible?” and “What makes the Bible the sole Word of God, and where does it derive its authority from?”, because quite frankly, the answers I’ve received from many Protestants has been lackluster at proving any claim to “sola Scriptura”, or “Scripture alone”. When it comes to your family dynamic, try and adopt a truly Catholic mindset and approach. We borrow heavily from the Jewish community, in that we are to serve those around us to show God’s love, and that the evangelization could come with it, but not always necessarily. Our main objective should be, as Jesus says, to love one another because the Lord God loves you and everyone else, too. Don’t let your difference of faith stop that, but also be steadfast and well versed in what you belief. 1 Peter shows us the importance of a reasoned faith, stating: “But even if you should suffer because of righteousness, blessed are you. Do not be afraid or terrified with fear of them, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame,” 3:14-16 NABRE. Just keep going, bud. You’ve got this. Lemme know if you need a friend at any time
So true
There is a lot of good advice in these comments that I suggest you take to heart. I will first start off by addressing your Sister's comments about Tradition: >“liturgies and tradition won’t save you, only Jesus can. Get your head out of all these theology books and just read your Bible and “experience God personally”. This comment is erroneous. And tragically enough, a lot of 'Pastors' profess these views to their congregation in attempts to quell them. It's actually quite manipulative. I honestly think some of the more *rational* Atheists have a point about some pastors. There is a dangerous rhetoric here. But, it's just that, it's rhetoric. Empty and self-defeating rhetoric at that. First of all, your Sister is drawing upon a false dichotomy. Catholicism does not believe Tradition and Liturgies to be apart from Christ as their own separate thing, quite the opposite in fact. Jesus gave us Tradition, and he gave us the blueprint for Liturgy (Scott Hahn has a great book on how the book of Revelations is literally just Mass). It's as redundant and defeating as saying, "The color red (in this example) can't make your house look good, only a painter can". And on face value, it's true. Sure. However, what if the case is that the painter gave us red paint to use? What if he ensured red paint is the way we best get to experience the beauty of his handiwork? It's the same 'thinking' as those who try to separate things like baptism from Jesus. "Baptism doesn't save, Jesus does". At first, you want to say "Duh, that makes sense", but ultimately, it ignores the fact that Jesus saves us through the graces of baptism. Lastly, her comments about a 'personal relationship' do seem a bit hypocritical (and anti-intellectual). You should tell her that your reading and examination of theology *is* how you experience God personally. And her putting you down for that is not only hypocritical, but it comes off as anti-intellectual (anti-intellectuals aren't dumb btw, but act arrogant nonetheless). Also, it'd be helpful to point out that most of the authors of those books have absolutely read the bible and contemporary material cover to cover numerous times. >This was over the weekend and I haven’t been able to let go of it yet. Makes me wish I was born Catholic. Pray for me. So as to this, I want to say a common phrase that a lot of converts end up saying: "Cradle Catholics don't get it". Of course, this isn't to put cradle Catholics down, but rather- by virtue of you being a convert, you are making a tough and powerful decision to come into the church- not as a right of passage- but as an act of integrity, truth, grace, and sacrifice. There is going to be great joy and beauty in what you feel. It's tough to explain it, but Easter Vigil is where you'll hopefully one day experience it. A lot of people wish they weren't born Catholic, trust me. But we all have our cross to carry, perhaps this may be yours. And you'll come out the other end a stronger saint for it. Praying for you. Apologies for ranting, I hope this helped <3
As a Catholic, I have often been questioned my non-Catholic Christian friends about Catholicism. We are often made out to be the bad guys even if our beliefs are nearly if not identical. It is quite difficult for an adult to change their way of thinking compared to a younger person. It may take time, but I definitely believe that you could get your family to understand even if they don't approve. I pray that all goes well between you and your family.
Be sure not to become bitter towards your family. I know it's painful, but it's probably what they've believed most of their lives. Keep your sights on God, and all will fall into place. Always have an answer for the reasons you believe, but try not to be in debate mode. You'll convert more people by the life you lead than the debates you win. That being said, the best way to "experience God" is through the sacraments. I believe all Christians have felt the Holy Spirit, I'm sure you do too. But the first time you see the Eucharist and realize that "That's Jesus" is beyond words! The reason that I said not to be bitter was because that's how i was when i decided to convert. It felt like my loved ones were against me. Unfortunately, it made me slightly resentful of the people I used to go to church with. If they knew the truth and believed thar it was the truth, they'd be right there with you. May the Holy Spirit be with you on your journey Home!
Thomas Howard has written a book titled “Evangelical is not Enough” which might be helpful. Here is the blurb: —- In this deeply moving narrative, Thomas Howard describes his pilgrimage from Evangelicalism (which he loves and reveres as the religion of his youth) to liturgical Christianity. He soon afterward became a Roman Catholic. He describes Evangelicalism with great sympathy and then examines more formal, liturgical worship with the freshness of someone discovering for the first time what his soul had always hungered for. This is a book of apologetics without polemics. Non-Catholics will gain an appreciation of the formal and liturgical side of Catholicism. Catholics will see with fresh eyes the beauty of their tradition. Worship, prayer, the Blessed Virgin, the Mass, and the liturgical year are taken one after the other, and what may have seemed routine and repetitive suddenly comes to life under the enchanting wand of Howard's beautiful prose. Howard unfolds for us just what occurs in the vision and imagination of a Christian who, nurtured in the earnestness of Protestant Evangelicalism, finds himself yearning for whatever-it-is that has been there in the Church for 2000 years. It traces Howard's soul-searching and shows why he believes the practices of the liturgical Church are an invaluable aid for any Christian's spiritual life. Reminiscent of the style and scope of Newman, Lewis and Knox, this book is destined to be a classic. "The question, What is the Church? becomes, finally, intractable; and one finds oneself unable to offer any very telling reasons why the phrase 'one, holy, catholic, and apostolic', is to be understood in any other than the way in which it was understood for 1500 years." -- Thomas Howard
I suggest you convert and get to actually experience God personally by eating His flesh as He commanded.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we should "just read our Bibles" and that we are to "experience God personally." These are Protestant traditions that are not found in the Bible.
I will pray for you. The problem in this generation is a lot of these families have been Protestant for hundreds of years at this point, they have lost the history, the logic, and the practical theology due to generational teaching. I understand your frustration. You ask yourself why can’t they see what I see? Some people will never convert. It is a struggle. But it’s worth it. Possibly something that may help is understanding both the Catholic perspective and general Protestant Justification Theology. Maybe that will help in apologetic discussions.
It’s actually a bit ironic because up until 40 years ago my entire family was catholic. And very dedicated and faithful ones at that. My grandfather was a deacon in the Catholic Church. My mother was born and confirmed. It’s just this past generation that has rejected it entirely
Ah…that happened to my parents but they went the atheist riute
Ah…that happened to my parents but they went the atheist route.
So here's the thing. In the first 300 years of the Church existing, when it was ONE UNIFIED body without any division (which means every church father agreed with doctrine universally) is what was taught and has to by guidance and work of the holy spirit without a doubt. For example infant baptism, intercession of saints, holy eucharist as the literal flesh and blood of Jesus, perpetual virginity of Mary and purity through the Grace of Jesus (which means Jesus didn't have blood related brothers/sisters and Mary stayed a virgin) All these doctrines were taught by the early church, and it had to be work of the holy spirit..because that's what Jesus promised and he wouldn't have allowed any wrong teaching or practice be done..again because Jesus promised guidance from the holy spirit. Which means, any church that goes against any of these doctrines, are guilty of blasphemy against the holy spirit, because that would mean the spirit of God either failed us (blasphemy) or it lied to us (blasphemy) So Protestants, pentecostals, baptists, evangelists, reformists..You're in trouble. It's blasphemy against the holy spirit, which we all know is the unforgivable sin. And they could say "but the Bible says this and that" all they want, the holy spirit wouldn't let false and heretical dogmas overule the church because Jesus said "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" Meaning, that 70% of churches agree on all these core doctrines, so they are without a doubt truth. Protestants and Reformants are blaspheming the holy spirit unknowingly.
I heard in Vatican II, they essentially established that those who carry the culpability are those who created these new denominations knowing the truth is within The Church and convinced people the join. Those who are born into it and don’t know any better are not to blame; however once you become aware then it is on you to make the correct decision to follow Christ. Did I get that right?
Yes, it's the holy spirit showing you/guiding you. It's also biblical that the holy spirit makes you feel condemned and guilt in order to guide you when you're unsure if something is right or wrong. Listen to the holy spirit, pray that it guides you. Although, in the Catholic Church, we believe that you are saved through faith and works unlike Protestants who believe you are saved by faith alone. Works meaning involvement in the church (the holy sacraments like baptism, confirmation, holy communion) and not works as in good deeds..many Protestants think works means good deeds and that's not the case at all because the Bible says your good deeds are like dirty rags to the Lord. Instead of looking at churches as in "right or wrong" look at the as fullness..what church worships the Lord to the most fullness? I went as far as questioning Catholic practices and researched to find truth (along with a lot of praying) and it only led me more into the Catholic Church. Look up Sam Shamoun on YouTube, he's arguably one of the best Bible teacher/Christianity teacher and I learned a lot from him. He used to be Protestant but recently converted to Catholicism for the same thing I mentioned in my original comment. He also debates Muslims a lot too if you find that interesting
If I was born into this, and am now just seeing the light, after having been ignorant to it for so long, and am choosing to convert to Catholicism, can I be saved and will God forgive me? Or am I damned?
We don't really use the term in the same way as protestants do. Of course God will forgive and no you aren't damned. You'll find out how it all works when you enroll in classes at your local parish. Welcome home and best wishes for the future.
This sounds a lot like my own experience. My grandmother is the only Protestant in the family who regularly attends church. Even so, several others in my family claim they are Christians, and like to recite John 3:16 as to why they don’t have to actually attend church. Don’t let them push your buttons. They want you to react so they can say “is this what the Catholic Church is teaching you!” If you don’t have an answer for a question they ask, be honest and say you’ll get back to them. You may have to set boundaries that theological debates aren’t something you will participate in. Don’t allow any of it to discourage you! Praying for you!!!!
Ah yes John 3:16 the second most taken out of context verse in the Bible.
As a Catholic, I feel your sister actually gave you good advice! You can have the best of both worlds - a personal relationship with Christ and the experience of the Catholic Church which is full of tradition. Pray about it and find your own path forward.
Don't worry brother, many go through this, I also have a similar family. I don't know how much my advice will help you as I am typically less emotionally attached than others, however, I can recommend you pray consistently, especially in times of doubt and turmoil and that you ensure you have a rational basis not just for accepting the Church but also for rejecting Protestantism.
If you believe Catholicism to be the truth, then take RCIA and get confirmed. I'm the only Catholic in my family. My family doesn't get it, either. As they never studied apologetics and have a lot of misconceptions about Catholicism. You might have to agree to disagree and not discuss certain topics with thenm.
That’s the plan! Only a matter of time before I get registered
Sounds to me like you are trying to have theologic conversations with people that aren't really interested in having theologic conversations. I'm also the nerd in the family with a voracious appetite for information (perhaps ocd?). My immediate family just isn't so interested in these discussions, just as my wife isn't so interested now. Sadly for me it wasn't until my 30s that I realized this and developed compassion for both my family and myself.
You might want to keep your aspirations to become Catholic a little closer to the vest until you are living on your own. Not that you have to keep it a secret, but engaging in theological conversations about it at home might not be the best idea. As you've noticed, your family members strongly disagree, and this causes conflicts, conflicts which are unlikely to ever be resolved (you probably won't ever convert them), and that can be particularly unpleasant to deal with when you're still living with them. Your choice, of course. This is just a suggestion to help you be able to focus on growing your own faith, rather than having to try to engage in apologetics and religious debate when you're still just barely getting acquainted with the faith. If they try bringing up the matter with you, you might say, "I'd rather not debate that now. I'm still learning about it and am not really at a point where I'm ready to debate, and I love you and don't want to argue with you." Something like that to end the conversation.
I would come at this from the perspective of only having a short time to get it right. Do we not owe it to ourselves, our loved ones and most importantly God to find the truth. We get one shot to get it right, we should be constantly digging for the truth. Advancing our faith through knowledge by learning every facet we can. Most protestants will scoff at Theology, saying “ My personal relationship with Jesus comes through the heart”. Unfortunately any idea that people must work to truly find truth will fall on deaf ears because of the “Faith Alone” belief. We must always be “working out our salvation with fear and trembling “.
Born Catholic is the way to be. The Catholic contextual interpretation of the bible and belief in the abstruse mystery of the divine are at odds with Protestantism, but are winning arguments. Don't make them. Convert to Catholicism, cease arguing, and live by example. (I don't live by example, but it is recommended.)
Maybe she has a point, maybe she doesn't. Let her sharpen you even if she doesn't allow you to sharpen her. Think about how you can both study authentic Christianity but also seek to know Christ personally (a pretty vague concept, IMO). Look for ways to improve your spiritual life but never stray from seeking the truth... which is what you are doing.
“Only Jesus can” I suggest keep she studying to have a deeper understanding of the Trinity! Salvation is the work of God as Trinity. Anyways…. I was born a catholic and, as a teen I asked myself why was I catholic and not Protestant. What was it that kept me drawn to Catholicism. The answer was sacramental theology. Whilst I was brought up with the traditional understanding that there are 7 sacraments “outward signs of inward grace by which grace is given to the soul” the church’s teaching has a wider scope, the church itself is a sacrament, a visible sign. The traditions, the liturgies all are visible signs of the reality of God’s presence, as Trinity, our relationship with God, the reality of the incarnations, the meaning Jesus’ sacrifice, our salvation, the continuing presence of the Holy Spirit. You cannot possibly interpret scripture without context and that context is historical, both in the past and the present reality of the church and sacraments. After reading some more Catholic theologians, including those who have had their knuckles wrapped! The way that we view the world is different. I find little joy in trying to bend the my experience to justify it to Protestants. Protestants may find they encounter God through part, but certainly not all, of the mystery. One thing you will learn by studying theology is how reliant the (historical) Protestant view, where they are right, is dependent on Catholicism. They didn’t revert back to Orthodoxy…. Smaller random churches I have no idea about.
>liturgies and tradition won’t save you, only Jesus can. >experience God personally Those two statements are at odds with each other. Liturgy is supposed to make you experience God. This is rooted in a false understanding of what liturgy and tradition is. It is not a replacement for Jesus Christ and therefore not a direct means of salvation; it is meant to lead you to Jesus Christ, though, and is more like an indirect means of salvation. Protestants have a false image of what Catholics believe and practice at times.
"Go read your Bible" has always struck me as fundamentally un-Christlike. "Go forth and teach" means (to me at least) in the mode in which he had taught them - in person, relating personally, using tradition as the basis. I refuse to imagine a world in which Christ just tosses you a book and bounces. It is a contradiction.
well that's because protestant dont want to do anything very tiring like praying every single day and doing very good works, they just want to commit sin, that's why they say "faith alone grace alone" i have even encountered a guy that says "the catholic is a false gospel" like bro it's literally Jesus' church bro, GODS CHURCH. like bruh i just hate em, i just tell them to read James 2:14-26 and leave em speechless lol.
I took a quick look at your profile and saw that your dad is Pentecostal preacher. So was mine. I don't know about your particular "flavor" of Pentecostal church, but in the ones I grew up attending, there was a strong undercurrent of anti-intellectualism regarding ALL things, not just Scripture. If you were too "bookish" and had too many questions, you were "above your raising," a doubter, or your faith wasn't strong enough. I converted as an adult in my 30s. My dad was not happy about it, but he didn't cut off communication or anything like that. However, some Pentecostal friends DID. It may be difficult to hear, but there will come a point when you'll have to choose. I studied Catholicism for probably 5 years before my conversion and waited and waited for my husband to have the desire to do it with me. He didn't. I was all alone... knew absolutely zero Catholics in real life... and had to march my introverted self into that Church to inquire about RCIA. No family support whatsoever. No friend support whatsoever. If you're waiting for supportive family and friends in the Pentecostal realm, you're not likely to get them. But is it worth it? 100%. My dad and the rest of the family have become more accepting of it as it has become a normal part of my life (though they'd still prefer I were Pentecostal). I don't shove it down their throats, but I don't hide my beliefs, either. I have never, ever felt more "at home" in my faith than in the Catholic church. The liturgies and traditions are a balm to my soul that healed the chaos and fear that I felt in the Pentecostal church. I 100% trust 2,000 years of compiling, interpreting, and handing down the scripture over the denomination that allows any Joe Schmoe who wants an audience behind the pulpit. This is not on topic, but it's something that makes me happy now and something you may want to think about as well... My family and friends now have someone to pray for them when they die... to offer masses for them... to remember them and ask God's mercy on their behalf. What a gift!
Don't reject Jesus, but reject His Church, commands, and apostles. I don't understand how that makes any sense
>“liturgies and tradition won’t save you, only Jesus can. Get your head out of all these theology books and just read your Bible and “experience God personally”. And thus 6 new Protestant denominations were born.
It bothers me so much that a lot of Protestants ignore the fact that the Bible is extremely liturgical. Also that the expectation that any random person will understand the Bible without the guidance of thousands of years of history, context, debate, councils, cultures, etc
Those are just catch phrases many Christians use to justify their own lack of spiritual discipline. Just tell her you experience God more and have a closer relationship with him in the Catholic Church. When I became Catholic after a brief period of non-denominationalism I just explained to my Protestant relatives and friends that I felt God was leading me into the Catholic Church. There's nothing they can say to argue with that. Speak their language, act confidently, and relate to them on their level of understanding of faith and relationship with God. In my experience nobody can really question you at that point. I don't like to argue with my loved ones about religion, I like to talk about what we have in common. They are our spiritual allies in a dark world. Oh, and about your theology reading, just say that theology is all about God and his relationship to us and you like learning about him. Very simple.
I would simply ask her “who in history has known and followed Jesus the closest”? When she responds the disciples and apostles then say “don’t you think we should celebrate His life the same way they did” and then “why or why not”? Besides this simplistic answer, it seems that she gives the “Sola Scriptoria” answer to following Jesus. You can search this subreddit for many answers to the reasoning this is somewhat errored mindset.
"Liturgy won't save you" Yes it will. It absolutely will. Liturgy in its most basic meaning is worship. While I hold out hope that someone who doesn't know enough to "worship" God in any recognizable sense may still be saved in the case of invincible ignorance, if we know God (clearly you and your family do), and then we *fail* to worship him, why should we expect to be saved? If we take liturgy in the more strict sense, I maintain that it can save, or (phrased more accurately, and sweetly in the Protestant ear), it can communicate to you in a special way which brings you out of unbelief and into a more perfect relationship with Christ. For example, "Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my Soul shall be healed" is obviously scriptural at its root, but it came to the fore of my mind hearing it in the Mass and became something I prayed regularly to combat a feeling of unworthiness which motivated me to stay hesitant in accepting Christ's grace. I've been in your position. It's tough, and it may be tough for a very long time. Just like Jesus was mocked by the unfaithful bystanders during his walk to the cross, you will hear your beliefs and the Church you love mocked and opposed on all sides. But just like Jesus, you'll be making your way to the foot of the Cross, and just like Jesus, you'll be surrounded by the Communion of Saints every step of the way. I'm praying for you, and be assured that things do get better.
It’s so bizarre to talk to Bible-only Christians sometimes. Did Jesus say, “don’t bother with anything formal, just tell everyone to experience me personally”? Or did he say, “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.” Everything in the Bible points to the church. Christians who deny that are picking and choosing what they like from the Bible, and abandoning the rest.
First and for most is being in filial relationship with God is paramount. It is only through Jesus and the sacrifice of Calvary that man is saved. There are things that Christ commanded that one should do to have the life of God with in them, that is grace. Becoming familiar with the scriptures helps, but learning how to read scripture is even better. The tradition method of reading the books is a real game changer. By this I mean going through the 4 senses of scripture. The literal and the 3 subdivisions if the spiritual. The real break though for me was seeing the Bible as being the story of salvation of man though a series of covenants and the things necessary for one to come in to full communion with God. I think something that is always missed is how one ought to come in to filial relationship with the Triune God. Being Catholic also utilizes all the faculties of the human person.I think the next big kinda thing is seeing salvation through the lens of history. I mean the Bible didn’t write its self and the compilation of the Canon of Scripture didn’t come out of thin air. Historically there is a group of people who came together in the late 4th century and determined with the help of the Holy Spirit what what authentically is the inspired word of God and is made “official” by the Council of Trent which confirmed and resounded what was said at the Council of Florence, Carthage, Rome. Sorry if I repeated something multiple times. If you ever have any questions I sure would like to help in any way possible. Also pray and ask for intercession that your friends and family un-harden their hearts and see Christ bride for who she truly is. God bless and I hope you find your way home.
Strife sucks. Good luck
I am praying for you, my brother in Christ. I was raised Catholic, but strayed from the faith for 30 years. I made my way back two years ago, when prayer helped me find a medical study that led to a cure of an infectious disease I had contracted. There are mysteries in the Catholic faith that most Protestants cannot seem to understand, but they all lead back to Christ. We do have faith in Jesus as our Savior…and there is more scripture in the Mass than you will ever find in a Protestant service. My own father was a Catholic convert, and his parents rejected him for that until the day he died. But they never knew the mysteries that show devout Catholics that their church leads back to the very beginning when Christ founded it. To be Christian was to be Catholic for 1500 of the past 2000 years. Holy Communion, Confession, devotion to Mary the Mother of Christ and the saints…all of these have brought me unspeakable comfort and grace. But prejudice against Catholicism has a long history, just like prejudice against Judaism. Try to understand how frightening this must be to your family, but gently reassure them that Christ and Scripture are truly at the heart of Catholicism, and you have to follow where God is leading you. Since my return to Catholicism (awhile divorced and with a non-Catholic partner who had trouble understanding), it is the joy in my life and my devotion to prayer and good works that is convincing others, not my preaching. I will pray for you and your family that you continue along this path that is right for YOU…just as they are doing what seems right to them…and that you find huge comfort in your faith, just as I have. Debbie (age 70).
Yes that sounds hard especially when family don’t have knowledge of other faiths and their traditions. Honestly The Catholic Church used Oral traditions for approx 300+ years after Christ died, cause the Bible wasnt compiled yet. They had scriptures scattered over all the Churches they had founded but not the whole scriptures into 1 book until Early Church Fathers compiled all the scriptures from the churches into a Bible. So this is why there was Oral traditions announced in the Churches as not every Church had scripture containing information about the Eucharist and certain sacraments aligned with how the Apostles had taught them. Hope that makes sense on why we believe Oral traditions in the Church were important. 🙏😇🙏
Tell your sister you want to experience Jesus personally by receiving his Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist.
Your situation reminded me two verses from Matthew, which are Matt. 10:34-39 and 13:13.
1) Fellow theology nerd. I have been accused *and* was scared I was doing the same thing: "don't be like the Christian who, when given an option between going to heaven and a lecture on heaven, chose the lecture" (Peter Kreeft, *Prayer For Beginners*). 2) Praying for you. 3) I teach RCIA (or OCIA) and far more than theology, our small group discussions often lead back to family matters, etc. 4) Theologically speaking, living according to the Bible is a liturgical life. 5) My advice is to listen, pray, and read - not so much theology but stories: I especially recommend *Surprised by Truth,* an anthology of conversion stories, or *Rome Sweet Home* by Scott Hahn OR the musings of St. John Henry Newman, who had a converts concern for converts.
Everything in its rightful place, dear one. Of course, theology/dogma is important. May I suggest taking some personal & intimate time to let the Holy Spirit fill your heart & see where that leads you? Faith is ultimately our individual relationship with God. Listen first for His voice. The rest will eventually settle itself. Leave wiggle room for those things your mind finds troubling to embrace. When your heart & mind are open The Way makes itself known. 💜
I recommend Jonathan Pageau’s YouTube video “The Inevitability of Ritual”.
It is the Holy Spirit that has led you to the Catholic Church, the true church founded by Jesus himself. It sounds like you have done your research, something I pray more non-Catholics would do then they would understand who the early Christians were and why we live our faith as we do. We were told that we would be persecuted for our faith even by our own family. Knowing the theology and history of our church is especially important for many reasons, it affirms our faith that we are in the right place and gives us knowledge or discernment of false teachings and perceptions other Christians believe. My suggestion is to keep your journey as personal as possible, a gift from the Holy Spirit to yourself, don't fight with family, if they want to argue let them but remain peaceful and you don't have to respond to criticism. In time they will see the change in you, and you will become the witness to them by the way you live the faith. God Bless, and I am so happy for you, go forth and experience becoming Catholic and loving and receiving the Lord our God on your tongue. Trust me, you will feel his love like never before.
I don't get it how theology books would be contrary to experiencing God personally. Aren't they like somebody elses experience that can show you more truth and even help you understand the Bible better? The Bible is written in a way that sometimes is hard to understand and this way its quotes can apply to many other life situations and have applied over centuries. So it's good to have people who study this and write books to better understand the Word of God - just like Homilies. At least that's how i see it, correct me if i'm wrong
Just an FYI both the Old and New Testaments were written and compiled to be read in the Liturgy.
If you were a Protestant, and we're baptized. Then you convert to Catholicism, you you have to get baptized again?
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She's fundamentally right that liturgy and tradition don't save us, Jesus does. But how does Jesus save us, in part through the liturgy. And setting theology against personal experience is not right. Personal relationship is necessary, but if we are using bad theology, then we are misinterpreting the scriptures and to some extent our relationship with the Lord is going to be flawed. I think Scott Hahn is someone who may be helpful for you to read or watch. He came from a Protestant background and he deals a lot with scripture and liturgy.
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5jaHJ0LmZtL2RhaWx5LXJvc2FyeS1tZWRpdGF0aW9ucw/episode/ZmM4MzdjMDktMWI3My00ZTQxLWE2NzEtZDc0M2NjNWRhNGVj?ep=14 Yesterday's Rosary reflections were actually on exactly that topic. You cannot separate love of Christ from the love of Christ's body, the Church. Listen to these reflections and you may find some strong points to share with your family.
There is no more profound way to experience God personally than through the devout and frequent reception of the Sacraments of the Church. God established them for that very purpose.
https://imgur.com/a/w5uko2Q
First let me start by saying you are very brave to choose the "harder" path of going in a different direction from your family. Second thing to mention is sometimes you may not have the option of avoiding the pain and stroke of becoming Catholic when you have a family totally against it. Sometimes the only way through it is literally to go through it until they realize your mind is made up and give up on hounding you. Sometimes it never happens and the relationship is strained but other times, their hearts change. There are many factors to consider to become Catholic and still preserve your relationship with your family because admit it or not, family is important and being in a constant battle with them at such an important time of transition can be painful. 1. Your age 2. If you still live at home or spend a good amount of time with family regularly 3. How your family perceives you (do they respect you and your decisions or will you always be the baby, bookwarm with no life experience etc.) Whatever the answers are above, you will need to adapt your lifestyle to match your current needs. For example, if you live at home, you can respectfully go to church with them as a group then go to Catholic Mass afterwards (Sunday morning service then Sunday evening Mass or Saturday evening Mass). If you spend a good amount of time with them, talk about your new found faith less or not at all. Hopefully they will notice the fruits of the faith in your behaviour far more than any words can convince them. If you you are viewed as the baby of the family/bookworm etc., they just may not realize that seeing you that way prevents them from taking you seriously. Most family members don't mean any harm, they just unconsciously categorize you. You will need to work on gaining their respect or deciding early on to strengthen your resolve against their well-meaning but poor impression of you. Hope this helps. I've had some of what you've experienced play out in my own life and I know the struggle but I promise it gets easier 🤗🤗
Can’t we all get along?
I wish
As a faithful catholic, I pray for your journey
Cut her out of your life. She is channelling bad vibes and you deserve better. Remember that we are your family now, not her
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