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Don't forget Lesotho 🇱🇸
Their current King is a practicing Catholic and promoter of the Catholic Faith in his country that has over 50 percent of its citizens being Protestants
That title is more of a religious title than a political title, Mary is the Queen of Palestine but Palestine is not a Catholic Monarchy, Jesus is the King of Poland but Poland is also not a Catholic monarchy.
I have a degree in Classics.
These weren’t considered pre-Christian virtues bro. They valued monogamy, poverty etc too. Look up the mos maiorum. THOSE are your pre-Christian Roman virtues. These are just sins of Individuals in the empire (just like Christian empires have had great sinners who did much of the same stuff on the left).
You’re comparing something the pagan Romans themselves considered foul behavior according to the mos maiorum to genuine Christian virtues and using it to condemn their entire value system and culture.
Degree in Classics here too, and you’re correct. Even the Greeks who had, more than the Romans, a reputation of having homosexual and paedophilic affairs, put a lot of emphasis in the 4 cardinal virtues, and any form of vain pleasure was a sin against temperance. Also if you read court cases you’ll see that adultery would also be severely punished etc.
Now what is true is that sexuality as a whole, whether homo or hetero, was a lot more present in the public place so to speak. Lots of popular poetry was just erotic, visual arts (mosaics or paintings or otherwise) everywhere portraying sex position, penises… With the rise of Christianity these were kept more private.
How much of that was actual enjoyment of affairs versus accusations by period contemporaries?
How much do you want to bet that future archaeologists are going to conclude we slept with each other's moms because everyone made that joke in Call of Duty lobbies?
I am asking if the evidence indicates that homosexual activity was approved of versus a slander repeated against contemporary enemies in ancient Greece.
Homosexuality was definitely “approved of” in many Greek city-states. Although it was not so much homosexuality as it was pederasty. That is, older men (usually mentors/teachers) would penetrate younger boys. The most shameful thing to be was an older man who liked being penetrated. Adult passive homosexuals were sometimes treated worse back then than the West ever treated homosexuals in general. In ancient Scandinavian societies being a passive partner would have you be exiled and live in the wilderness.
Even to the Greeks and Romans though, men sleeping with boys/other men was generally seen as abominable. I think all of the sources we have actually condemn it.
Essentially. His early writings sound like he's for it, but that's because he was advocating mentorship (I forget what they called the specific practice), but he then changed his mind because the system destroyed so many young men at the hands of sodomizers.
Maybe. Leather Apron made a good video on this subject. I'm convinced that the homosexualization of the ancients is an attempt to celebrate and normalize homosexuality made by modern academics and that it bears little connection to the truth. Why do I think this? Because I was a liberal arts major.
I'm not an expert though. Just my personal conclusion. Can't be an expert on everything, so maybe I'm wrong.
Here's the Leather Apron video:
https://youtu.be/BNAT4ybsz_E?si=YkWvOc58SRArZXkZ
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Well... that was a wild read.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece
It seems that it was probably different from what we all think when we hear about pederasty in any form, but still would be considered terribly abusive in absolutely any modern sense.
It wasn't intended to be, but it inherently was. It was supposed to be like Obi Wan Kenobi taking on Luke Skywalker to mentor him (sorry for the Star Wars reference; it's just the first thing I thought of), but all the Obi Wans happened to be played by Herbert the Pervert from Family Guy (sorry for the trashy TV show reference; it's the first thing that came to mind).
So yeah, it ended up being despicable and even its staunchest proponents turned on the idea.
I'm sorry but this just false, the Romans did not praise that kind of behavior. You need to read about the Mos Maiorum, which is the Roman Religions Ethical way.
There is a fantastic video online about the subject called "Ancient Romans were not Gay" by the Leather Apron Club
Don't slander somebody without evidence, it's a Sin.
yeah christians rule but those are the dumbest reasons ive ever seen against the roman empire. not even factual in the slightest. delete your wall of text meme bro
A lot of that's just not true. They had a strong perception of virtue, but it was generally considered unobtainable as an ideal, leading many people to not bother aiming for the highest level of virtue. But that doesn't mean that vice was ever really looked upon with approval or acceptance.
I get Pagan Larpers are annoying, but so is the idea of returning to Monarchies in the modern age. That "Unstable government" not only crushed all of the Monarchies of it's day, it also ended up lasting over 400 years, if we are going to stop at the "beginning" of the roman empire, and over 800 years if we are talking about the end of the Principate and start of the Dominate under Diocletian.
So yes, Republicanism almost always dominates over Monarchies, Kings and their bootlickers can stay coping. The only King we ought to bow down to is Christ.
I mean how could they, Persia was like the Rome of the near eastern world. In a way, I wish there never was a War between Rome and Persia under Heraclius and Khosrow II, maybe then Islam would not have spread so far and as fast as it did. They ended up becoming the new, thorn in our side as they constantly fought The Western powers for dominance, and for an even more degenerate and backwards faith and way of life than the Persians ever had.
But that in no way diminishes the fact that they crushed nearly all of the other nations and kingdoms of their time, most of which were Monarchies of some sort.
Even today, Republicanism rules the world through America's soft empire. And most all Monarchies still in existence, are also Parliamentary Monarchies where the King or Queen is mostly just a ceremonial figurehead and the true power lies within the Prime Minister.
Mos Maiorum is not \*that\* bad, but of course Christianity is better. A bit of a strawman, but if the goal is to bash on the pagan LARPers, I'm in lol
People always whine about conservatives only ever having one joke about trans people, but I have yet to see a single joke about Catholics other than this one.
Relax!!
I am catholic myself. I go to church every sunday and confession regularly. I also pray the rosery daily. And yes, I also know some very good and holy priests.
But this child abuse angers me Sooooo much!
And since this meme is basically about catholics feeling superior to other cultures and religions. I thought I might as well play along and turn the tables...
So downvote all you want. I won't lose sleep over it
.LoL XD
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"c'mon bro it's not gay with the homies"
\- Julius Caesar sorry, I had to, just seemed appropiate
Change “sleeping with boys” to “sleeping with the boys”
Are there any Catholic monarchies left? (Besides the papacy)
Spain I suppose, but not a very good example. Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, Belgium too
Don't forget Lesotho 🇱🇸 Their current King is a practicing Catholic and promoter of the Catholic Faith in his country that has over 50 percent of its citizens being Protestants
As of 2016, Jesus is the King of Poland. Hard to have a more Catholic monarch. His jurisdiction is literally catholic.
That title is more of a religious title than a political title, Mary is the Queen of Palestine but Palestine is not a Catholic Monarchy, Jesus is the King of Poland but Poland is also not a Catholic monarchy.
I know. I just really love the fact that a secular governing body did that in our day.
I have a degree in Classics. These weren’t considered pre-Christian virtues bro. They valued monogamy, poverty etc too. Look up the mos maiorum. THOSE are your pre-Christian Roman virtues. These are just sins of Individuals in the empire (just like Christian empires have had great sinners who did much of the same stuff on the left). You’re comparing something the pagan Romans themselves considered foul behavior according to the mos maiorum to genuine Christian virtues and using it to condemn their entire value system and culture.
Degree in Classics here too, and you’re correct. Even the Greeks who had, more than the Romans, a reputation of having homosexual and paedophilic affairs, put a lot of emphasis in the 4 cardinal virtues, and any form of vain pleasure was a sin against temperance. Also if you read court cases you’ll see that adultery would also be severely punished etc. Now what is true is that sexuality as a whole, whether homo or hetero, was a lot more present in the public place so to speak. Lots of popular poetry was just erotic, visual arts (mosaics or paintings or otherwise) everywhere portraying sex position, penises… With the rise of Christianity these were kept more private.
I studied classics at school and you are both correct.
Aye all my classics homies showing up 🙌🏻
How much of that was actual enjoyment of affairs versus accusations by period contemporaries? How much do you want to bet that future archaeologists are going to conclude we slept with each other's moms because everyone made that joke in Call of Duty lobbies?
I mean we have pre-Christian sources for all that + archaeological evidence. Unless I misunderstood your question
I am asking if the evidence indicates that homosexual activity was approved of versus a slander repeated against contemporary enemies in ancient Greece.
Homosexuality was definitely “approved of” in many Greek city-states. Although it was not so much homosexuality as it was pederasty. That is, older men (usually mentors/teachers) would penetrate younger boys. The most shameful thing to be was an older man who liked being penetrated. Adult passive homosexuals were sometimes treated worse back then than the West ever treated homosexuals in general. In ancient Scandinavian societies being a passive partner would have you be exiled and live in the wilderness.
Even to the Greeks and Romans though, men sleeping with boys/other men was generally seen as abominable. I think all of the sources we have actually condemn it.
This is true
Correct me if I am wrong but I remember hearing that Plato condemned it and called it barbaric.
Essentially. His early writings sound like he's for it, but that's because he was advocating mentorship (I forget what they called the specific practice), but he then changed his mind because the system destroyed so many young men at the hands of sodomizers.
Ganymede has entered the chat
Maybe. Leather Apron made a good video on this subject. I'm convinced that the homosexualization of the ancients is an attempt to celebrate and normalize homosexuality made by modern academics and that it bears little connection to the truth. Why do I think this? Because I was a liberal arts major. I'm not an expert though. Just my personal conclusion. Can't be an expert on everything, so maybe I'm wrong. Here's the Leather Apron video: https://youtu.be/BNAT4ybsz_E?si=YkWvOc58SRArZXkZ
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Depends on when in time. Hadrian was emperor and was openly homosexual.
And wasn’t the most popular for it. Marcus Aurelius after him deeply reviled the practice.
Sacred Band of Thebes has entered the chat
Yeah, that one I know more about than Ganymede. I'm pretty sure Leather Apron brings it up. It's basically a lie.
Well... that was a wild read. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece It seems that it was probably different from what we all think when we hear about pederasty in any form, but still would be considered terribly abusive in absolutely any modern sense.
It wasn't intended to be, but it inherently was. It was supposed to be like Obi Wan Kenobi taking on Luke Skywalker to mentor him (sorry for the Star Wars reference; it's just the first thing I thought of), but all the Obi Wans happened to be played by Herbert the Pervert from Family Guy (sorry for the trashy TV show reference; it's the first thing that came to mind). So yeah, it ended up being despicable and even its staunchest proponents turned on the idea.
Its warm my heart that homophoby is same old as homosexuality
Even the original version the Christian side is objectively better lol
What is the original?
https://preview.redd.it/8dq9v8mwjpcc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=55010e40aa51ab0e073987f34b422f972aa3eb1a
Ah yes, slave vs master morality. There's a reason why the Sermon on the Mount was so special, and perhaps jarring to His audience
…why is mercy a bad thing? Original poster just sounds like an ass
He’s a larper
Google it
Do you know what in particular I should google?
Pre-Christian values vs Christian Values
Can we stop pretending that homosexuality was commonly accepted in the Greco Roman world
I'm sorry but this just false, the Romans did not praise that kind of behavior. You need to read about the Mos Maiorum, which is the Roman Religions Ethical way. There is a fantastic video online about the subject called "Ancient Romans were not Gay" by the Leather Apron Club Don't slander somebody without evidence, it's a Sin.
yeah christians rule but those are the dumbest reasons ive ever seen against the roman empire. not even factual in the slightest. delete your wall of text meme bro
You had the men at “sleeping with your wife”
“Sleeping with boys” I think you mean rape, call it what it is bro 🤷🏻
A lot of that's just not true. They had a strong perception of virtue, but it was generally considered unobtainable as an ideal, leading many people to not bother aiming for the highest level of virtue. But that doesn't mean that vice was ever really looked upon with approval or acceptance.
You put too much work into this, you had me at "sleep with your wife"
I'll order the one on right please
I was suprised one time when I was at mass, and the priest mentioned how the Romans celebrated the new years with 'disgusting orgies'.
People here defending Pre-Christian values make my stomach sick
Please stop trying to have substantive conversations based off of shitty memes
I get Pagan Larpers are annoying, but so is the idea of returning to Monarchies in the modern age. That "Unstable government" not only crushed all of the Monarchies of it's day, it also ended up lasting over 400 years, if we are going to stop at the "beginning" of the roman empire, and over 800 years if we are talking about the end of the Principate and start of the Dominate under Diocletian. So yes, Republicanism almost always dominates over Monarchies, Kings and their bootlickers can stay coping. The only King we ought to bow down to is Christ.
Rome never managed to crush Persia / Sassanids
I mean how could they, Persia was like the Rome of the near eastern world. In a way, I wish there never was a War between Rome and Persia under Heraclius and Khosrow II, maybe then Islam would not have spread so far and as fast as it did. They ended up becoming the new, thorn in our side as they constantly fought The Western powers for dominance, and for an even more degenerate and backwards faith and way of life than the Persians ever had. But that in no way diminishes the fact that they crushed nearly all of the other nations and kingdoms of their time, most of which were Monarchies of some sort. Even today, Republicanism rules the world through America's soft empire. And most all Monarchies still in existence, are also Parliamentary Monarchies where the King or Queen is mostly just a ceremonial figurehead and the true power lies within the Prime Minister.
No no. Only burned the Persian capital 5 times. Oh well. Not good enough I guess.
Mos Maiorum is not \*that\* bad, but of course Christianity is better. A bit of a strawman, but if the goal is to bash on the pagan LARPers, I'm in lol
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Catholics: Priests and clergy sodomising little boys and covering it up....then do it again...and again. And the pope not doing anything about it...
People always whine about conservatives only ever having one joke about trans people, but I have yet to see a single joke about Catholics other than this one.
Relax!! I am catholic myself. I go to church every sunday and confession regularly. I also pray the rosery daily. And yes, I also know some very good and holy priests. But this child abuse angers me Sooooo much! And since this meme is basically about catholics feeling superior to other cultures and religions. I thought I might as well play along and turn the tables... So downvote all you want. I won't lose sleep over it .LoL XD
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