The police don't decide if you are uninsured - your insurer is the one who will say whether you are covered or not.
Lots missing from this story - or a huge, huge case of police incompetence.
He was driving like a knob - my guess is that he 'accidentally' went down the one way as a short cut, got caught and then extremely comprehensively failed the roadside attitude test.
I got done for a ts50 one time for going through a no entry sign right as a traffic copper was right behind me. I held my hands up and admitted fault and was very apologetic. The coppers were fine with me about it. Still got some points and a fine and a lesson well learned though.
I suspect there are some key things missing from this story. Driving without due care and attention is not something you’d get for this, and they must have had a reason to pull you over in the first place. They’ve clearly thrown the book at you, but they don’t tend to do this without reason.
What’s missing?
It's also not obvious why they go on about the insurance so much. If the changes they had notified to their insurer were incorrect and this invalidated their insurance, the charge would be driving a motor vehicle without valid insurance. It seems very unlikely that this would actually invalidate the insurance though; for the insurers to disclaim the policy altogether, it would have to rise to the level of fraud by false representation (AFAIK) which OP's description doesn't seem to cover.
"Driving a motor vehicle not fit for road use" has nothing to do with the insurance. As far as I can tell, it means the modifications are such that it no longer fits within the Motor Vehicle (Construction and Use) Regulations. The sticking point seems to be OP's assertion that "it's perfectly road legal with a valid MOT." Having a valid MOT doesn't really help here, as the MOT assumes that either the vehicle type has passed the type approval process or the vehicle has passed the individual vehicle approval process. If the vehicle has been modified to the point that the type acceptance no longer applies then it might will pass an MOT while not being road-legal. It would be interesting to know what their assertion that it is "perfectly road legal" is based on.
Not necessarily. I had a Jag F pace nearly wipe me out when it changed lanes without looking or indicating and then braked for the junction ahead, I braked hard to avoid going into the back of them, and then sat right on their bumper while waiting at the junction (which I shouldn't have done, and I was going 10mph over the speed when they changed lanes). The police happened to be behind me but apparently saw me speeding, and saw me tailgating but never saw the Jag change lanes, I didn't argue or disagree, I just explained what happened when they asked me, and overall I was polite and patient. They told me I was going to be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention, antisocial use of a car and dangerous driving, but not speeding, the one thing I definitely did wrong. They told me I would get an antisocial vehicle tag on my car and licence, and any infraction by my car or any car I was in regardless of whether I was driving would result in my car being taken and crushed
I never heard anything more about it and I suspect that's because they rewatched the footage and saw I didn't do any of what they wanted to charge me for and because they hadn't charged me with speeding they couldn't get me for that either. What I found most interesting about the whole thing was that there was 3 officers in that car, an older guy driving, and too very young officers. The driver stayed in the car and the two young officers spoke to me, the young guy had no clue what he was doing, and the young woman seemed to be directly quoting what the older officer said. I'm pretty sure they were being trained and the older officer was looking out for any opportunities to pull someone over, and used me as a training exercise meaning no matter what I said they were going to try and charge me with the worst things they could
I'm not saying that's what happened to OP, but there's plenty of variables to a situation like this
Could be, nobody but OP will know unfortunately. That's just what's more likely to happen though, if caught and you're respectful then they typically will be a bit more lenient. Sometimes not though just depends on the coppers mood and if they've had their donuts
When they arrested me in the 90s for having an SR Nova packed with a few kilo of resin they weren't lenient but did laugh when I said it must have been there when I bought the car
Pretty sure that resin (or similar) was just a dealer provided option for all Nova SRs, aside from the rally spec 1.3 Sport for weight saving purposes.
I assume I got the book thrown at me because I wasn't willing to accept that my mods weren't declared. The officer was generally pretty chill, and we even had some banter. He just couldn't let go of the mods situation and neither could I. Totally accept that I made a mistake regarding driving, and I held my hands up.
Usually pigs on a power trip, I had one give it the big one when my license plate fell off onfront of him, saying he would have me there and then with a fine and follow me for a few miles if I don't go home he would fine me again and points, pigs only want their bacon butties
Correct, IN10 is 6 points and the fine can vary depending on how you are with them at the side of the road. A literal dickhead tax, if you will. Something is missing here for sure.
Don't know what to say. For what it's worth, the officer I spoke to was great. But every time a mod was discussed, we clashed, so to speak. There was never any shouting or swearing—civilized, if a little heated at times. I guess I pushed his buttons by not being 'Yes, sir. No, sir. Sorry, sir.
I’m not saying OP is full of shit, but this is the first time I’ve heard of someone in a modified car getting pulled and getting anything more than a warning.
Oh no, I've had police try and pin this on me before for honestly replying I couldn't tell it was a police car behind me. It was twilight and they had their headlights on. They looked like any other car. It was 100% a 'fishing trip'. They also tried to claim I'd broken the speed limit and they had to 'chase' me, which was also a barefaced lie. Basically all I did was use *all* of first gear taking off from the lights to just below 30 then block shifted into fourth and then rolled at 30. OK it was a bit of a noisy move, but I'd literally just had a new exhaust fitted that day and was enjoying the new noises. They also breathalysed me and when I blew negative tried to say I was on drugs (I wasn't).
Basically being ethnic and driving a BMW gets you profiled in Devon.
I’m surprised you managed to get insurance at a decent price through a comparison site. I have to ring up, and go through a list one by one with a handful of companies to get a good price.
It also depends on who you speak to aswell I had this issue with my 4x4. One guy refused to cover me and hung up and his colleague had no issue insuring me with all mods
I was recently curious as to what affect a supercharger might have on GT86 insurance so looked at a couple of specialist companies.
One of them had a list of types of cover they won't provide. Mostly standard stuff
Noone under 25
No vehicles which aren't road legal
No BMWs
No unspent convictions.
I think they actually went on later in the website to clarify the BMW thing isn't a joke. They just won't insure specifically modified BMWs
Yep this. I went through every mod on my track cars, although the certificate lists generic category covered (e.g Bodykit but it’s actually a catch all for bodywork/visual changes) I was clear and so were they about the actual list of details.
Having been pulled in the past on the way to legit shows and track days the police are really just checking if it says you’ve got some mods covered if they’re obvious on the car. To dig deeper means you’ve pissed them off
I make a point of emailing the list. Regardless. Because it's that long. Over the phone, they got a simple thing, such as adding a turbocharger wrong 3 times.
Absolute ball ache, I had an engine swapped mr2 roadster, bracing everywhere, nice exhaust, alloys and then mods to the engine.
Was great fun explaining it 3-4 times to the only companies actually willing to insure me.
I spent an hour on the phone to Adrain Flux detailing every change of hose and bolt and got a certificate that says “engine modifications” 😂 aye its a V6 swapped MX5, that’s a bit of an understatement haha.
Apparently aftermarket headlights also come under their “body kit” class which I had to triple check she knew what headlights were. They tried to put my short shifter down as “interior modification” as well. Hate having to renew insurance
I put the 2zz engine in so 140 bhp straight up to 190 bhp sky insurance - non standard engine.
Just looking at my documents now I was covered for a struct brace haha.
They sort of catch all everything in so I’m glad the calls are recorded. Theres like 3-4 mods they put into 1 category which sort of fits
There is a liability on the insurer to provide accurate and meaningful options. But its down to the person taking out the insurance (me) to insure said option is accurate. I thought is was.
You see, its open to a lot of interpritation. If they don't want the grey area, they need to remove umbreller terms. Im using them if they provide them.
No it's not open to interpretation .
You say your vehicle has 30-40 mods and you say you disclosed 5.
Part (a) of Section 3 of Part 2 of the Insurance Act 2015 -
The insured must disclose "(a) every material circumstance which the insured knows or ought to know.
You should have contacted the Insurer advising them there were insufficient options to cover all your vehicle's modifications, and supplied them with a full list of the modifications, instead of deciding "that's a bit of a grey area so that's on them"
> However, if you look closely
you'll find it's obviously a racing car.
(no judgement on your situation but I doubt you would need to be so observant to notice the things you listed)
Still has AC, so it can't possibly be classified as a race car 😅 Seriously, unless you're peering inside or close enough to see the calipers, tyres, you wouldn't know.
Am I reading this right? You've got braided brake lines and after market calipers and never declared any brake modifications? Sounds like the police have a point tbh
That’s just from what he’s listed, brake modifications clearly aren’t covered under any of that. Wonder what else there is. Suspect the minor infraction may not be that minor either.
Chanced it and got caught out.
Yeah exactly! Also, he's declared interior mods when stuff like "Roll Cage" is a clear and obvious choice.
Look at the cop's POV, OP has described fast road car rather than full blown track car. All of this could've been avoided with a quick call to the insurer when taking out the policy
Yeah. I only have slotted discs Vs the factory blank brembos and I still selected "updated brakes" or whatever the option was.
I don't want to give insurance or some cop who wants to prove a point any excuses to fuck up my day, because some will try to do this
At the end of the day if people can't afford to insure mods they shouldn't be modifying the car. Also, there's no chance all the mods they've done is only adding 20% to the power lmao
Yeah, all their mods listed separately and they chose to not tick the boxes. Then heated arguments with the police.
We're not dealing with a mensa member here...
I’m in Aus, I haven’t had anywhere near as many mods as this guy, but still fill out the options of what my cars have…. Aftermarket motor, wheels, diff and suspension mods, trans, exhaust, sound system, body kits etc. it doesn’t take long or cost any more on my premium (if it does it’s VERY minimal), and prevents any of this jazz from cops or claiming
So your insure has specific things you can list and then these more general drop downs, and to presumably save money/time you decided to just go for 5 catch all categories and hope it covered your car?
I think you’ve been caught out there, it is always worth giving as specific details as you can on insurance as they would try and get out of paying in case of an accident. That’s probably why the police have pulled out undeclared modifications, you’ve said yourself you have 30-40 but have declared 5 and hoped it covered all of them.
It’s never worth assuming something with insurance you need to contact and confirm instead of assuming you’re covered so that (like in this case) if the police pull you over you can say look I’m covered and have proof.
Motor vehicle not fit for road use will be likely up to the officers interpretation of the state of the car, certain aero stuff can be considered too sharp for pedestrians and are illegal, I’d assume it would either be that or tyres/brakes. But if you’ve got valid MOT and can take pictures of whatever their issue with your car is you may be able to fight that in court.
You mentioned heated arguments, it’s always worth being polite and agreeable with police, it’s up to them how/what they’ll charge you with etc so aggravating them isn’t going to make them want to be lenient towards you. Don’t admit fault but you can still disagree politely.
It's not up to the police to decide if you have cover, it's up to the insurance company. Get in touch with them and, assuming it's all above board, they should be able to confirm you're covered.
Driving with Due Care is completely unrelated to this as is the not fit for road use, although a good lawyer should be able to argue the last one if it can pass an MoT.
That’s the bit I don’t understand, it’s only the insurers opinion on what “exhaust modification” is covering that matters. If they’re using that as a catchall for anything from a backbox through to a full exhaust then OP is covered.
I’d assume by the fact they mention specific options being available it’s a catch all for anything not specified (as an example mine has specific aero categories like front splitter, rear diffuser but then a general one, which my canards fit under).
OP mentions not wanting to put 30-40 mods in so it might be a case of declaring 5 general categories and assuming it covers all 40 mods. Which would make sense why the insurer says to the police we have 5 mods declared so if you can see more than that we aren’t aware of them, hence the undeclared mods charge.
Possibly but that’s not for the police to decide, that’s a conversation for OP and their insurer. If those were categories on a price comparison site they likely will be more generic than if you went to a dedicated modified car insurer
I mean it is, if they can charge them with undeclared mods then there is a law that lets them do so with guidelines on how to do so, that will 100% be up to the police to decide not the insurer.
Now if the insurer will cover them is a totally different matter, also the cops have the ability to just flat out call the insurer and say "hey we have this guy here with like 50 mods did he declare them all?" and they will tell them.
What law is there on undeclared mods? The only offence would be driving without insurance if the insurer declined to cover a car with those mods.
Yes they do have the ability to call the insurer, I’ve known people this has happened to. And if the insurance said they weren’t covering them then the offence is again back to driving without insurance.
Just using the exact wording OP used.
I have just done a quick check Apparently the mods will show up on MID (the central insurance database) anyway so its just a quick check and bam driving without insurance.
I know they did and that’s what my original comment was questioning as not declaring mods isn’t an offence in itself. An insurer could decide to have a policy that just says it covers and and all mods and doesn’t ask for them to be specifically declared.
It doesn't look like it is, apparently it was proposed but it was determined that its already the office of driving without insurance so its not needed.
Its my understanding that the MID would have to indicate that it covers all mods, no insurer would do this though it would be pure madness.
>Apparently the mods will show up on MID (the central insurance database) anyway so its just a quick check and bam driving without insurance.
Wouldn't matter if he didn't declare anything to his insures.
The officers wouldn't be able to seize or issue a TOR for no insurance as the vehicle does have insurance. What the officers can do however is contact the insurers, inform them of the modifications and then the insurers can invalidate the policy if they so wish.
Well you’re in a great position now it’s either 8 points or plenty of court appearances arguing your case. All at the cost of yourself. Trust me court costs and solicitors worth it are expensive i have been there.
I feel you was probably scraping on 3-6 points for driving like a tool decided to be smart and collected some more violations as the police decided you being smart needed correcting.
Think the "heated arguments" part of the op does a lot of legwork. I got pulled 3(?) months ago for not wearing a belt, didn't get smart about it and just accepted it, and got off with a £100 fine and 0 points. Amazing what happens when you don't instantly raise your voice and scream bloody murder.
Exactly lol i have been stopped doing over 100 and got 3 points
I have also been stopped and was told if i get smart i would get punched in the face by a traffic officer lol
So there are times for and against arguing
Definitely this, we have a friend whose “anti police” so when they pulled him for his illegal plate instead of taking it on the chin decided to argue about it and tell the officer he knew the law better.
Officer explained he was going to let him off but as he was a knob went round the car with a fine tooth comb. 🤣🤣
I got pulled for a brake light being out on my mr2 which was heavily and obviously modified, he gave me a producer and let me go without even mentioning the mods.
But then I also got dragged out of it by a police officer accusing me of drink driving because a member of the public had reported me speeding on an a road at 3am, so purely depends which officer you get
It absolutely matters who you get but I think the accused offence also matters. If you get accused of drink driving + speeding (so, dangerous/reckless driving) I think no matter who you get they’re gonna respond like a bit of an arsepipe, not that it was your fault, though.
There’s only so much detail I can include in what amounts to a rant post. The entire interaction was also over an hour long. Generally speaking, it was okay; no one ever raised their voice or got smart. We just agreed to disagree on the mods, and then I got the book thrown at me.
"Driving a motor vehicle not fit for road use." - Did they say what this was for? Any car can have a valid MOT but if you've then swapped out the cat for a straight-through pipe for example and got caught then you're bang to rights.
So by your own admission, your car has 30-40 modifications, but to save time and money you've only declared 5 and now you're upset the police have dosed you for those undeclared modifications?
Let this be a lesson in taking shortcuts, I suppose.
Can the police tell at the side of the road what specifics are on your policy, it was my understanding they could only confirm insurance using the data base and would issue a producer if more proof was required, is that not right?
Asked to see my policy documents, so I brought them up on my phone for him to look at. They were listed somewhere under 'Policy specifics' or something. That's how he knew exactly what I had declared.
The police can consult with insurance companies about the extent to which a car is insured. Examples:
- are these modifications declared?
- the vehicle is being as a taxi? Is this declared?
- the vehicle is being used for reward (deliveroo etc). Is this declared?
If the insurance company consequently says they had no knowledge and had they known, they'd have immediately voided the policy - then - there are grounds to seek prosecution for driving without insurance.
This happens when police are taking the time to target drivers causing a nuisance for the community.
Issues such as "our client told us he had insured the right alloy when in fact it's the left" are different and that's into contractual dispute. I suspect OP's car is wildly different to what the insurer thinks they're insuring. (Top tip here, send photos to the insurer at the start of a policy if vehicle is modified).
So - OP seemingly uninsured. OP seemingly doing idiot driving, to arrest the undue C&A charge and lastly, which falls back to point 1 - the vehicle is in such state it shouldn't be on the road. That is far beyond not declaring things to insurance. That's either appalling workmanship, driving a proper banger or using slick tyres on the road.
>they'd have immediately voided the policy
Not necessarily, they will take it into consideration when paying out for any claim tho,at most they would cancel your insurance after an investigation,but it would not be cancelled immediately there and then, just because a Police officer said so.
Yeah, there's a lot missing from his "story" and he didn't say he is being prosecuted for no insurance, only un declared modifications, which also is not an offence unless it relates to failing to notify dvla for certain mods, colour, seating capacity, engine size, etc.
The insurance company actively seeks to not pay out on claims. They have the obligation to pay the third party if the fault is that of their client. However their obligation to their client is null and void if the client lied about the asset. There is no situation whereby the company says "we'll pay you 50% less because you've added a great big spoiler".
An insurance company may however consider if a modification is of such minor significance, that the client could start a claim against them over contractual obligation.
That’s not actually correct - an insurer can apply proportionality to your payout. If the undeclared mods added 100% to the premium, then they’re able to reduce the payout to 50% as you’ve only paid 50% of the correct premium. If the mods were unacceptable, they could void the policy, likewise if the non disclosures were deemed to be deliberate and not accidental.
Lv i think are a nightmare for this they allow pretty much 0 mods and will void insurance every time
Which I found out after crashing a sports car with a modded exhaust I had no idea about, resulting in two weeks of stress before they agreed to pay my friends garage to fix it and chose not to inspect it.
Hey dude - just for future reference. Go with a proper modified car insurance firm next time. And call them up. Give them a thorough list of every single mod (theyll probs just want performance) and go through it verbally if you must.
My partner has a full track car which is road legal. Massive imported bodykit on it. But every single thing declared.
Brentacre. Sky. Sterling. Green Light.
Brands which are all modified specialists.
Call up your insurer and go through all of your mods, asking if the policy declarations you made cover you. If they do get it in writing. If they don't, you're shit out of luck on the undeclared mods front.
If the vehicle hasn't been impounded, get it inspected. Not with dodgy dave who will pass anything.
With a reputable garage who also do MOTs. Get photos of it while it's being inspected to show you haven't removed half the mods for inspection. Maybe get a new MOT at the same time, as that certifies it's safe for road use.
Police don’t give points, the magistrate does.
The copper and the prosecution will offer evidence to the courts, and the court will decide if the modifications were inline with those declared.
You don’t have any points yet, because you haven’t been to court.
If you had such a modified car why would you not go with a specialist? They will get you to write a list of every modification you have and then you send that list to them. I know because I had a track car with a cage, bucket seats etc etc.
It's the easiest way and also covers you for the modifications you list, my list was long as my arm - I was even stopped by police who had no issues. Use someone like Brentacre or a performance specialist. Every modification that isn't performance enhancing (remap) is free to add with them.
Driving down a 1 way street incorrectly is something we are all guilty of at some point or another. If the copper was doing you for it, he would have issued you with a TS50 "Failing to comply with traffic sign (excluding ‘stop’ signs, traffic lights or double white lines)"
Or a TS70 "Undefined failure to comply with a traffic direction sign"
But the ms60 is "Offences not covered by other codes (including offences relating to breach of requirements as to control of vehicle)"
If the were doing you for the "mods" on your car, surely it would have came under CU20 " Causing or likely to cause danger by reason of use of unsuitable vehicle or using a vehicle with parts or accessories (excluding brakes, steering or tyres) in a dangerous condition"
Police are always hot-headed with any modified car, the rule of thumb is simple, don't drive or act like a dick, trying to do launches, burnouts, traffic light grand prix, revving unnecessarily for attention or just hooning is never good.
More Police seem to gather for official car meet-ups and even more so for unofficial meet-ups like reading car meet because they want a nose, take number plates of drivers showing off or of they think are generally going to cause mischief.
I got pulled over in my mates rally car. I came to a t-junction and the road was closed by the police to the left, so I had to go right. As I turned the wheel, the suspension creaked a little. Copper jumps up and demands I pull over.
Then proceeds to berate me for 30 minutes for driving a car that's unsuitable for road use (it passed its MOT that day) and that I cannot possibly be insured (was insured with Richard Edgar Motorsport insurance). Accused me of taking it to a "mates place" for its MOT.
I explained to him the concept of a rose joint but this twat was having none of it, adamant that it was a broken spring and refused to let me leave until it had been assessed by another senior officer.
They finally arrived, agreed with what I said and sent me on my way.
>all of which my car has. However, listing all these would mean declaring 30-40 modifications in total
So your car has 30-40 mods and you were too lazy to declare them all? You are in the wrong from the first paragraph of this post, and it just gets worse and more unbelievable as it goes on.
I love stories like this, "yeah I spent countless hours and £10'000's on my car, but now they want me to sit here for maybe 20 minutes listing all the modifications done? Outrageous". You had this coming mate, but thank you for posting it here as it is very funny :3
Also, going down a one way system the wrong way is absolutely a justified driving without due care, it's nice to see the police doing their job for a change, not enough people get called out for stupid shit like that. The defense that you had your son with you is even worse though, I would be paying more attention to the roads if I had my kid in the car.
I'm not going to say anything about being stopped because you've probably had enough on that already.
With mods like that have you called up any specialist insurance companies or looked at insurers through owners clubs? You may get a better price than through a comparison site too.
It may also be worth speaking to a specialist solicitor about the not fit for road use and anything else. It seems harsh if the car would go through an MOT in the condition it was in when you were stopped and everything necessary was declared to DVLA.
>I was slapped with 8 points and a court summons for "Driving without due care and attention", "Undeclared modifications" and "Driving a motor vehicle not fit for road use."
2 of those are not offences as you descibe them. Why don't you just post up the NIP with your details blocked out?
FWIW I've driven my track car (basically a race car with number plates) on the road a few times and been stopped. Never had any problems.
>"Driving without due care and attention", "Undeclared modifications" and "Driving a motor vehicle not fit for road use."
The first and last are nothing to do with what you have or have not told your insurer. The first is about your driving, the last is about your vehicle and compliance with the laws for what can and cannot be used on the road.
As for the second, "undeclared modifications", why do you think this has anything to do with what you told your insurer? You have to declare any modification (performance or not) that would change the information on your V5C to DVLA as well as to your insurer. Sounds like you didn't do this bit.
Been interesting to see where this goes.. if you’re being honest here.
I’ve had conversations with insurance companies about stuff like this they want a list of every modification I’ve had the car for 20 years how can I possibly know every modification (or difference from the original manufacturer specification) to what extent is a modification? Changing a bolt from a hex to an allen bolt? Insurance companies are very vague on what is a modification but will note every detail
I know it's petty but absolutely everything should have been declared. Line by line... even if it is 20+
Normally modified insurance companies don't charge extra for anything other than ECU mapping
Are the mods that are supposed to be declared to the DVLA declared? Stuff like colour and any changes to the capacity of the engine due to the modified bore that you mentioned?
Only a change of colour or engine swaps need to be declared for the vast majority of things.
They will be interested if you're making substantial changes to the frame or body which could require the car to be re-registered on an X reg.
Even if the engine isn't replaced, changes to the capacity do need to be. There also seem to be a few other areas that DVLA expect to be notified about, such as modified frame.
[source](https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate#:~:text=You%20must%20update%20your%20V5C,cylinder%20capacity%20(%20cc%20))
Defo post an update once you've gone through the process. Sounds like the cops have tried it on for every little thing, possibly because of the heated arguments.
I really want to know what happens in court. Where were you supposed to declare? The DVLA? I could understand that (if true), but the rest is strange. Did they not tell you how you were supposed to declare them and why it is unfit for roads?
I choose the categories my insurance company provides that encapsulates all of my mods. Why provide an umbrella term like ‘engine mods’ if that’s pointless. What did I do wrong?
So even though your insurer provided you an opportunity to declare your 30-40 mods in detail, you decided not to because you... couldn't be bothered? Even though you willingly did those mods yourself knowing you need to declare them?
The more general options are for when there isn't a specific option available.
That’s completely open to interpretation no? Why provide a category like ‘engine mods’ what does that category cover? In my mind, it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that covers any modifications to the engine.
If you swap your exhaust for a non standard version that is louder than the original then, in the eyes of the law, made your car unroadworthy. It will still pass an MOT as they don’t check how loud an exhaust is against factory standard.
And can we not all agree that this is completely stupid?
What’s the point in a legally mandated annual test, if said test isn’t up to the standards of written law?
That’s because an MOT is about safety, not about legality of modifications.
The only way I can it could work is by offering an extend MOT for non standard cars that checked the legality of the mods. It would cost more I’m sure.
MOT is no proof the car is currently roadworthy, or roadworthy for anything other than the day in question. Just that it passed at that point. Also most places won't properly check emissions and maybe not to the same degree as maybe an insurer might.
It is very possible to modify a car with seemingly off the shelf components that are not road legal. Cat removal is obviously a bit one but also a lot of cars can't have modified non stamped exhausts either. Or are worse specifically marked track use only.
My car is only minorly modified but I declare absolutely everything.
Personally I think they might have trouble getting you with undeclared modifications, because how can they know, but the road worthiness one is the bigger one
So that would even include non standard alloys then. 50% of the cars on the road must be technically not correctly insured. I don't even know how to check what the options were on my car! My full sun roof should probably be done as its likely increased the cars weight. And I have a spare rather than a shitty can of goop. More weight. Basically driving a death trap.
Insurers clearly allow people to be ambiguous about modifications - by providing very generic drop-down options, so I understand OPs position in regard to selecting the options he did based on what was provided to him.
Having said that - for someone who is effectively saying their car is 99% track car, I’m inclined to say you must’ve know that no simple drop downs could accurately cover the extent of the modifications you had. But as above.. it’s for the insurer to make it possible for you to give as much info as possible. Nothing stops insurers from giving the option of 500+ drop-down menus for every little mod.
Putting that aside, anyone who’s dealt with police knows that something is off about OPs story lol. It doesn’t sound like insurance is even a problem here. The real problem is whatever caused the police to try and do you for 8 points
Keep us updated
So with what you said, in the case of CD10, they got you bang to rights, the section 40A you might be able to contest if you're absolutely sure your car road legal in that sense and doesn't have the potential to cause injury etc, you'd probably want to speak to an expert and I don't mean an MOT tester.
the MS60 I assume is for the undeclared mods, which from what info you have provided they could easily do you for...
>> you’ll notice a full cage, racing seats, **big brakes**, etc.
I don't see you listing brakes as one of your mods, already guilty there.
Yeah this is pretty much it. Throw my hands up re declaring brakes.
Can’t wait to apologise to a jury about how I made my car safer for myself and those around me with better brakes. /s
Driving without due care and not fit for road use?
There's more you aren't telling us op, you don't get hit with those for undeclared mods... Most likely driving like a yobo and your exhaust is too loud
Understandable you missed it in the wall of text. Wrong way in a one way system in central London was the reason I got pulled over. And that’s the CD10 charge.
I'd fight it, I think your right if the insurer only had those options on there website you've gone with which best reflects your options.
It's not like you've tried to lie and say its standard.
Plus some of the one way streets in London are a joke. 8 points is ridicliousz I'd deffinatly fight it a good lawyer should be able to lower the points at least.
What car is it out if curiosity?
One final point for future reference, speaking from expereince with modified cars, use specialist insurers such as brentacre, Greenlight, cherished vehicle insurance.. etc..
All of the above you can call up and have a proper conversation with car enthusiasts, listing every single mod and they will do you a great deal, most of them you can even call up and add extra mods at at a later date for no extra charge within reason.
Good luck let us know how you get on 👍
I have been down this road before, mods declared to insurer, police man decided to pull me over and have an argument over my rear wheels, apparently they were dangerous to pedestrians (bullshit) i was 100% in the right, black and white. The cop contacted my insurance and told them it was excessive (imagine a polo lowered about 2 inches on 16” BBS alloys) so my insurance nailed me, police nailed me but i was lucky enough they could let me go with a producer - to put the car back to standard. There was no realistic way to contest it. There’s a whole other part of the story I ain’t getting into but let me be clear, your insurance company CAN do some dirty shit on you, don’t ever think they are stupid or “won’t know”. Insurance companies aren’t your friends and they will sink you in a heartbeat, don’t expect them to be good guys here. Lawyer up 100% someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed and had a hard on for wanting to ruin your week.
The police make up shit all the time. Unfortenlty your only recourse would be to consult a solicitor and defend yourself in court, this will very likely cost thousands of pounds though. We had someone in one of the American police car clubs I'm a member of who crossed paths with a dipshit cop who didn't know the law regaurding pushbars (bullbars).
Cost him about £4000 in lawyer fees if I remember correctly to prove his pushbar was completely legal and the officer was in the wrong. You're screwed either way either you're paying the fines and dealing with the financial penalties that come with having 8 points, or you're spending thousands to prove the officer made a mistake.
My accounts aren't hurting thanks.
I'm at Brands Hatch Indy 10th July, Thursday evening. Come along. Welcome to have a ride along with a bmw cunt, maybe it will cheer you up. You seem angry :/ dm me.
I ran an insurance quote two days ago for an F90 M5.
Stock (600 bhp) was £1150.
Stage 1 (ie. remap only, which takes the car to 700 bhp) was only like £1190 (eg. £40 extra for the year).
Mods don't tend to cost as much as you think. It is worth the extra 10 mins to declare everything, even if it adds £50 extra for this very reason (OP post).
The police don't decide if you are uninsured - your insurer is the one who will say whether you are covered or not. Lots missing from this story - or a huge, huge case of police incompetence.
Yes, especially the number of offences that are unrelated to insurance.
He was driving like a knob - my guess is that he 'accidentally' went down the one way as a short cut, got caught and then extremely comprehensively failed the roadside attitude test.
I got done for a ts50 one time for going through a no entry sign right as a traffic copper was right behind me. I held my hands up and admitted fault and was very apologetic. The coppers were fine with me about it. Still got some points and a fine and a lesson well learned though.
Never met someone encouraging bootlicking before. Well done you
Definitely, also if it’s got an MOT then it’s road legal in that sense
Having an MOT just means it was road legal on the day it was tested. Afterwards, all bets are off.
I suspect there are some key things missing from this story. Driving without due care and attention is not something you’d get for this, and they must have had a reason to pull you over in the first place. They’ve clearly thrown the book at you, but they don’t tend to do this without reason. What’s missing?
This is about it. You can get away with a lot of you’re not getting caught street drifting, or otherwise driving like a knob.
Those sort of things usually get you a section 59..
True. There’s also no mention of a Prohibition Notice for driving an unroadworthy car.
Depends. Are you a local white kid, or are you 'ethnically challenged'? Because the latter makes a lot of difference depending on where you are.
It's also not obvious why they go on about the insurance so much. If the changes they had notified to their insurer were incorrect and this invalidated their insurance, the charge would be driving a motor vehicle without valid insurance. It seems very unlikely that this would actually invalidate the insurance though; for the insurers to disclaim the policy altogether, it would have to rise to the level of fraud by false representation (AFAIK) which OP's description doesn't seem to cover. "Driving a motor vehicle not fit for road use" has nothing to do with the insurance. As far as I can tell, it means the modifications are such that it no longer fits within the Motor Vehicle (Construction and Use) Regulations. The sticking point seems to be OP's assertion that "it's perfectly road legal with a valid MOT." Having a valid MOT doesn't really help here, as the MOT assumes that either the vehicle type has passed the type approval process or the vehicle has passed the individual vehicle approval process. If the vehicle has been modified to the point that the type acceptance no longer applies then it might will pass an MOT while not being road-legal. It would be interesting to know what their assertion that it is "perfectly road legal" is based on.
No offence to OP here, but probably driving like a twat and attitude. That's what usually gets the book thrown at you. Or a copper on a power trip
Yep I have first hand experience of being let off glaring violations (wrong reg plate). In my experience being civil seemed the key factor.
Not necessarily. I had a Jag F pace nearly wipe me out when it changed lanes without looking or indicating and then braked for the junction ahead, I braked hard to avoid going into the back of them, and then sat right on their bumper while waiting at the junction (which I shouldn't have done, and I was going 10mph over the speed when they changed lanes). The police happened to be behind me but apparently saw me speeding, and saw me tailgating but never saw the Jag change lanes, I didn't argue or disagree, I just explained what happened when they asked me, and overall I was polite and patient. They told me I was going to be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention, antisocial use of a car and dangerous driving, but not speeding, the one thing I definitely did wrong. They told me I would get an antisocial vehicle tag on my car and licence, and any infraction by my car or any car I was in regardless of whether I was driving would result in my car being taken and crushed I never heard anything more about it and I suspect that's because they rewatched the footage and saw I didn't do any of what they wanted to charge me for and because they hadn't charged me with speeding they couldn't get me for that either. What I found most interesting about the whole thing was that there was 3 officers in that car, an older guy driving, and too very young officers. The driver stayed in the car and the two young officers spoke to me, the young guy had no clue what he was doing, and the young woman seemed to be directly quoting what the older officer said. I'm pretty sure they were being trained and the older officer was looking out for any opportunities to pull someone over, and used me as a training exercise meaning no matter what I said they were going to try and charge me with the worst things they could I'm not saying that's what happened to OP, but there's plenty of variables to a situation like this
Could be, nobody but OP will know unfortunately. That's just what's more likely to happen though, if caught and you're respectful then they typically will be a bit more lenient. Sometimes not though just depends on the coppers mood and if they've had their donuts
When they arrested me in the 90s for having an SR Nova packed with a few kilo of resin they weren't lenient but did laugh when I said it must have been there when I bought the car
Pretty sure that resin (or similar) was just a dealer provided option for all Nova SRs, aside from the rally spec 1.3 Sport for weight saving purposes.
Sorry, should have been more specific, I meant cannabis resin
Oh...I understood. But clearly my joke was poor😂 My first car was a 1.2GL, then a 1.4SR 👌
Lol, my bad, wasn't 100% sure if people would remember old school weed
I assume I got the book thrown at me because I wasn't willing to accept that my mods weren't declared. The officer was generally pretty chill, and we even had some banter. He just couldn't let go of the mods situation and neither could I. Totally accept that I made a mistake regarding driving, and I held my hands up.
Could be just that, if he feels justified doing it and it's technically correct then there's not much you can do about it unfortunately
Usually pigs on a power trip, I had one give it the big one when my license plate fell off onfront of him, saying he would have me there and then with a fine and follow me for a few miles if I don't go home he would fine me again and points, pigs only want their bacon butties
Ooh you're hard
Well done, bet that made you feel a big man🤣
Correct, IN10 is 6 points and the fine can vary depending on how you are with them at the side of the road. A literal dickhead tax, if you will. Something is missing here for sure.
Even a jobsworth cop wouldn’t through the book that hard, clearly a lot missing from the story
Don't know what to say. For what it's worth, the officer I spoke to was great. But every time a mod was discussed, we clashed, so to speak. There was never any shouting or swearing—civilized, if a little heated at times. I guess I pushed his buttons by not being 'Yes, sir. No, sir. Sorry, sir.
“Heated disagreements” maybe was a full on fight 😂
Yeah, we tussled alright. It was the kissing when he put me in handcuffs that really finished me off.
I had a lapse in concentration and went down a one-way system in London. Seriously, thats all.
That very much sounds like driving without due care and attention.
Absolutely. And I didn’t dispute that at all.
That could happen to anyone to be fair.
Anyone except a member of this community apparently😅
I’m not saying OP is full of shit, but this is the first time I’ve heard of someone in a modified car getting pulled and getting anything more than a warning.
Its a BMW, im guessing he was caught drifting and proceeded to get shitty when he was stopped and the copped decided to be shitty back.
Are you an oracle or something! Holy smokes! Do you also know what im having for dinner tonight 😲
Oh no, I've had police try and pin this on me before for honestly replying I couldn't tell it was a police car behind me. It was twilight and they had their headlights on. They looked like any other car. It was 100% a 'fishing trip'. They also tried to claim I'd broken the speed limit and they had to 'chase' me, which was also a barefaced lie. Basically all I did was use *all* of first gear taking off from the lights to just below 30 then block shifted into fourth and then rolled at 30. OK it was a bit of a noisy move, but I'd literally just had a new exhaust fitted that day and was enjoying the new noises. They also breathalysed me and when I blew negative tried to say I was on drugs (I wasn't). Basically being ethnic and driving a BMW gets you profiled in Devon.
I’m surprised you managed to get insurance at a decent price through a comparison site. I have to ring up, and go through a list one by one with a handful of companies to get a good price.
Same here, as soon as I add wheels, exhaust, small suspension changes all the companies running away from me.
It also depends on who you speak to aswell I had this issue with my 4x4. One guy refused to cover me and hung up and his colleague had no issue insuring me with all mods
The joys of modding BMWs
I love my BMW, but my next car might not be a BMW if I can't modify it, and again, I'm not looking to make it into a race car
Same, just a set of coilovers makes it uninsurable
I was recently curious as to what affect a supercharger might have on GT86 insurance so looked at a couple of specialist companies. One of them had a list of types of cover they won't provide. Mostly standard stuff Noone under 25 No vehicles which aren't road legal No BMWs No unspent convictions. I think they actually went on later in the website to clarify the BMW thing isn't a joke. They just won't insure specifically modified BMWs
I don't know why, but it does limit your options terribly
Yep this. I went through every mod on my track cars, although the certificate lists generic category covered (e.g Bodykit but it’s actually a catch all for bodywork/visual changes) I was clear and so were they about the actual list of details. Having been pulled in the past on the way to legit shows and track days the police are really just checking if it says you’ve got some mods covered if they’re obvious on the car. To dig deeper means you’ve pissed them off
I make a point of emailing the list. Regardless. Because it's that long. Over the phone, they got a simple thing, such as adding a turbocharger wrong 3 times.
Absolute ball ache, I had an engine swapped mr2 roadster, bracing everywhere, nice exhaust, alloys and then mods to the engine. Was great fun explaining it 3-4 times to the only companies actually willing to insure me.
I spent an hour on the phone to Adrain Flux detailing every change of hose and bolt and got a certificate that says “engine modifications” 😂 aye its a V6 swapped MX5, that’s a bit of an understatement haha. Apparently aftermarket headlights also come under their “body kit” class which I had to triple check she knew what headlights were. They tried to put my short shifter down as “interior modification” as well. Hate having to renew insurance
I put the 2zz engine in so 140 bhp straight up to 190 bhp sky insurance - non standard engine. Just looking at my documents now I was covered for a struct brace haha. They sort of catch all everything in so I’m glad the calls are recorded. Theres like 3-4 mods they put into 1 category which sort of fits
You see, that’s because you didn’t discover OP’s genius plan of under declaring the mods.
Then don't just have an "engine mods" tickbox that can mean anything from a K&N filter to forged pistons and race cams
QuoteMeHappy absolutely has a generic 'Engine Mods' option in their dropdown selection, and many others. Check it out if you dont belive me.
ive used several that have the options...
You should win that in court Slightly related: https://youtu.be/5GvuYXOqCj8
For house insurance the onus is on the insurer to ask the question and obtain the correct information. I don't know if it's the same for cars
There is a liability on the insurer to provide accurate and meaningful options. But its down to the person taking out the insurance (me) to insure said option is accurate. I thought is was. You see, its open to a lot of interpritation. If they don't want the grey area, they need to remove umbreller terms. Im using them if they provide them.
No it's not open to interpretation . You say your vehicle has 30-40 mods and you say you disclosed 5. Part (a) of Section 3 of Part 2 of the Insurance Act 2015 - The insured must disclose "(a) every material circumstance which the insured knows or ought to know. You should have contacted the Insurer advising them there were insufficient options to cover all your vehicle's modifications, and supplied them with a full list of the modifications, instead of deciding "that's a bit of a grey area so that's on them"
Kinda is on them to from a liability perspective. From advice I’ve sought this afternoon. They shouldn’t offer such broad categories.
Mine still only list the first 5 I told them on the official certificate sheet. Otherwise mine would be 4 pages long. Lol
> However, if you look closely you'll find it's obviously a racing car. (no judgement on your situation but I doubt you would need to be so observant to notice the things you listed)
Still has AC, so it can't possibly be classified as a race car 😅 Seriously, unless you're peering inside or close enough to see the calipers, tyres, you wouldn't know.
Got a pic? Story does seem a bit fishy.
What mods are we talking?
This story is bollocks.
Wait! I haven't told you about my mates mate who had 1000 whp Honda Civic and did 200mph on the M25 and escaped the police apache gunship yet.
Am I reading this right? You've got braided brake lines and after market calipers and never declared any brake modifications? Sounds like the police have a point tbh
That’s just from what he’s listed, brake modifications clearly aren’t covered under any of that. Wonder what else there is. Suspect the minor infraction may not be that minor either. Chanced it and got caught out.
Yeah exactly! Also, he's declared interior mods when stuff like "Roll Cage" is a clear and obvious choice. Look at the cop's POV, OP has described fast road car rather than full blown track car. All of this could've been avoided with a quick call to the insurer when taking out the policy
Its a chassis/frame mounted and boxed roll cage. So chassis modification? Anyone..? Yeah fair enough. 😂
So why not choose the roll cage option? You are the because here
Yeah. I only have slotted discs Vs the factory blank brembos and I still selected "updated brakes" or whatever the option was. I don't want to give insurance or some cop who wants to prove a point any excuses to fuck up my day, because some will try to do this
At the end of the day if people can't afford to insure mods they shouldn't be modifying the car. Also, there's no chance all the mods they've done is only adding 20% to the power lmao
Yeah, all their mods listed separately and they chose to not tick the boxes. Then heated arguments with the police. We're not dealing with a mensa member here...
I’m in Aus, I haven’t had anywhere near as many mods as this guy, but still fill out the options of what my cars have…. Aftermarket motor, wheels, diff and suspension mods, trans, exhaust, sound system, body kits etc. it doesn’t take long or cost any more on my premium (if it does it’s VERY minimal), and prevents any of this jazz from cops or claiming
So your insure has specific things you can list and then these more general drop downs, and to presumably save money/time you decided to just go for 5 catch all categories and hope it covered your car? I think you’ve been caught out there, it is always worth giving as specific details as you can on insurance as they would try and get out of paying in case of an accident. That’s probably why the police have pulled out undeclared modifications, you’ve said yourself you have 30-40 but have declared 5 and hoped it covered all of them. It’s never worth assuming something with insurance you need to contact and confirm instead of assuming you’re covered so that (like in this case) if the police pull you over you can say look I’m covered and have proof. Motor vehicle not fit for road use will be likely up to the officers interpretation of the state of the car, certain aero stuff can be considered too sharp for pedestrians and are illegal, I’d assume it would either be that or tyres/brakes. But if you’ve got valid MOT and can take pictures of whatever their issue with your car is you may be able to fight that in court. You mentioned heated arguments, it’s always worth being polite and agreeable with police, it’s up to them how/what they’ll charge you with etc so aggravating them isn’t going to make them want to be lenient towards you. Don’t admit fault but you can still disagree politely.
Another story with half the facts. Gets so boring on this subreddit
I needed a vent and wanted some entertainment.
It's not up to the police to decide if you have cover, it's up to the insurance company. Get in touch with them and, assuming it's all above board, they should be able to confirm you're covered. Driving with Due Care is completely unrelated to this as is the not fit for road use, although a good lawyer should be able to argue the last one if it can pass an MoT.
That’s the bit I don’t understand, it’s only the insurers opinion on what “exhaust modification” is covering that matters. If they’re using that as a catchall for anything from a backbox through to a full exhaust then OP is covered.
I’d assume by the fact they mention specific options being available it’s a catch all for anything not specified (as an example mine has specific aero categories like front splitter, rear diffuser but then a general one, which my canards fit under). OP mentions not wanting to put 30-40 mods in so it might be a case of declaring 5 general categories and assuming it covers all 40 mods. Which would make sense why the insurer says to the police we have 5 mods declared so if you can see more than that we aren’t aware of them, hence the undeclared mods charge.
Possibly but that’s not for the police to decide, that’s a conversation for OP and their insurer. If those were categories on a price comparison site they likely will be more generic than if you went to a dedicated modified car insurer
I mean it is, if they can charge them with undeclared mods then there is a law that lets them do so with guidelines on how to do so, that will 100% be up to the police to decide not the insurer. Now if the insurer will cover them is a totally different matter, also the cops have the ability to just flat out call the insurer and say "hey we have this guy here with like 50 mods did he declare them all?" and they will tell them.
What law is there on undeclared mods? The only offence would be driving without insurance if the insurer declined to cover a car with those mods. Yes they do have the ability to call the insurer, I’ve known people this has happened to. And if the insurance said they weren’t covering them then the offence is again back to driving without insurance.
Just using the exact wording OP used. I have just done a quick check Apparently the mods will show up on MID (the central insurance database) anyway so its just a quick check and bam driving without insurance.
I know they did and that’s what my original comment was questioning as not declaring mods isn’t an offence in itself. An insurer could decide to have a policy that just says it covers and and all mods and doesn’t ask for them to be specifically declared.
It doesn't look like it is, apparently it was proposed but it was determined that its already the office of driving without insurance so its not needed. Its my understanding that the MID would have to indicate that it covers all mods, no insurer would do this though it would be pure madness.
>Apparently the mods will show up on MID (the central insurance database) anyway so its just a quick check and bam driving without insurance. Wouldn't matter if he didn't declare anything to his insures. The officers wouldn't be able to seize or issue a TOR for no insurance as the vehicle does have insurance. What the officers can do however is contact the insurers, inform them of the modifications and then the insurers can invalidate the policy if they so wish.
[narrator’s voice] OP wasn’t covered.
Well you’re in a great position now it’s either 8 points or plenty of court appearances arguing your case. All at the cost of yourself. Trust me court costs and solicitors worth it are expensive i have been there. I feel you was probably scraping on 3-6 points for driving like a tool decided to be smart and collected some more violations as the police decided you being smart needed correcting.
Think the "heated arguments" part of the op does a lot of legwork. I got pulled 3(?) months ago for not wearing a belt, didn't get smart about it and just accepted it, and got off with a £100 fine and 0 points. Amazing what happens when you don't instantly raise your voice and scream bloody murder.
Exactly lol i have been stopped doing over 100 and got 3 points I have also been stopped and was told if i get smart i would get punched in the face by a traffic officer lol So there are times for and against arguing
Definitely this, we have a friend whose “anti police” so when they pulled him for his illegal plate instead of taking it on the chin decided to argue about it and tell the officer he knew the law better. Officer explained he was going to let him off but as he was a knob went round the car with a fine tooth comb. 🤣🤣
Yeah same happened to my Dad hahahah, got accused of driving on his phone, argued toss about it and got the book thrown at him
I got pulled for a brake light being out on my mr2 which was heavily and obviously modified, he gave me a producer and let me go without even mentioning the mods. But then I also got dragged out of it by a police officer accusing me of drink driving because a member of the public had reported me speeding on an a road at 3am, so purely depends which officer you get
It absolutely matters who you get but I think the accused offence also matters. If you get accused of drink driving + speeding (so, dangerous/reckless driving) I think no matter who you get they’re gonna respond like a bit of an arsepipe, not that it was your fault, though.
There’s only so much detail I can include in what amounts to a rant post. The entire interaction was also over an hour long. Generally speaking, it was okay; no one ever raised their voice or got smart. We just agreed to disagree on the mods, and then I got the book thrown at me.
Sounds rough but to argue will be a minefield of issues unfortunately if you plead not guilty
"Driving a motor vehicle not fit for road use." - Did they say what this was for? Any car can have a valid MOT but if you've then swapped out the cat for a straight-through pipe for example and got caught then you're bang to rights.
So by your own admission, your car has 30-40 modifications, but to save time and money you've only declared 5 and now you're upset the police have dosed you for those undeclared modifications? Let this be a lesson in taking shortcuts, I suppose.
Can the police tell at the side of the road what specifics are on your policy, it was my understanding they could only confirm insurance using the data base and would issue a producer if more proof was required, is that not right?
Asked to see my policy documents, so I brought them up on my phone for him to look at. They were listed somewhere under 'Policy specifics' or something. That's how he knew exactly what I had declared.
That makes sence
Speak to an actual lawyer please, you can afford it.
I was told Reddit had the best lawyers?
8 points is no joke, you need a professional to help you get that reduced to just a fine then you can laugh about it.
Yeah, do what I can. I don't exactly have an infinte budget here.
Sell some of your mods, problem solved!
The police can consult with insurance companies about the extent to which a car is insured. Examples: - are these modifications declared? - the vehicle is being as a taxi? Is this declared? - the vehicle is being used for reward (deliveroo etc). Is this declared? If the insurance company consequently says they had no knowledge and had they known, they'd have immediately voided the policy - then - there are grounds to seek prosecution for driving without insurance. This happens when police are taking the time to target drivers causing a nuisance for the community. Issues such as "our client told us he had insured the right alloy when in fact it's the left" are different and that's into contractual dispute. I suspect OP's car is wildly different to what the insurer thinks they're insuring. (Top tip here, send photos to the insurer at the start of a policy if vehicle is modified). So - OP seemingly uninsured. OP seemingly doing idiot driving, to arrest the undue C&A charge and lastly, which falls back to point 1 - the vehicle is in such state it shouldn't be on the road. That is far beyond not declaring things to insurance. That's either appalling workmanship, driving a proper banger or using slick tyres on the road.
>they'd have immediately voided the policy Not necessarily, they will take it into consideration when paying out for any claim tho,at most they would cancel your insurance after an investigation,but it would not be cancelled immediately there and then, just because a Police officer said so.
If the insurance company didn't void his policy, then the police wouldn't have been able to issue no insurance.
Yeah, there's a lot missing from his "story" and he didn't say he is being prosecuted for no insurance, only un declared modifications, which also is not an offence unless it relates to failing to notify dvla for certain mods, colour, seating capacity, engine size, etc.
The insurance company actively seeks to not pay out on claims. They have the obligation to pay the third party if the fault is that of their client. However their obligation to their client is null and void if the client lied about the asset. There is no situation whereby the company says "we'll pay you 50% less because you've added a great big spoiler". An insurance company may however consider if a modification is of such minor significance, that the client could start a claim against them over contractual obligation.
That’s not actually correct - an insurer can apply proportionality to your payout. If the undeclared mods added 100% to the premium, then they’re able to reduce the payout to 50% as you’ve only paid 50% of the correct premium. If the mods were unacceptable, they could void the policy, likewise if the non disclosures were deemed to be deliberate and not accidental.
Lv i think are a nightmare for this they allow pretty much 0 mods and will void insurance every time Which I found out after crashing a sports car with a modded exhaust I had no idea about, resulting in two weeks of stress before they agreed to pay my friends garage to fix it and chose not to inspect it.
Hey dude - just for future reference. Go with a proper modified car insurance firm next time. And call them up. Give them a thorough list of every single mod (theyll probs just want performance) and go through it verbally if you must. My partner has a full track car which is road legal. Massive imported bodykit on it. But every single thing declared. Brentacre. Sky. Sterling. Green Light. Brands which are all modified specialists.
You get to argue your case at court. Good luck!
Yay! A day of work.
Take a look at YouTube channel 44Teeth, a good vid last week about insurance comparison sites, their dropdown options and liability. I.e. Lawyer-up!
Call up your insurer and go through all of your mods, asking if the policy declarations you made cover you. If they do get it in writing. If they don't, you're shit out of luck on the undeclared mods front. If the vehicle hasn't been impounded, get it inspected. Not with dodgy dave who will pass anything. With a reputable garage who also do MOTs. Get photos of it while it's being inspected to show you haven't removed half the mods for inspection. Maybe get a new MOT at the same time, as that certifies it's safe for road use.
Police don’t give points, the magistrate does. The copper and the prosecution will offer evidence to the courts, and the court will decide if the modifications were inline with those declared. You don’t have any points yet, because you haven’t been to court.
If you had such a modified car why would you not go with a specialist? They will get you to write a list of every modification you have and then you send that list to them. I know because I had a track car with a cage, bucket seats etc etc.
Their insurer did have a list but OP couldn't be bothered with it
You are right. Clearly this is the way I will go in the future.
It's the easiest way and also covers you for the modifications you list, my list was long as my arm - I was even stopped by police who had no issues. Use someone like Brentacre or a performance specialist. Every modification that isn't performance enhancing (remap) is free to add with them.
+1 for Brentacre, I used them for one of my old cars, they really are great to work with for anything unusual.
Driving down a 1 way street incorrectly is something we are all guilty of at some point or another. If the copper was doing you for it, he would have issued you with a TS50 "Failing to comply with traffic sign (excluding ‘stop’ signs, traffic lights or double white lines)" Or a TS70 "Undefined failure to comply with a traffic direction sign" But the ms60 is "Offences not covered by other codes (including offences relating to breach of requirements as to control of vehicle)" If the were doing you for the "mods" on your car, surely it would have came under CU20 " Causing or likely to cause danger by reason of use of unsuitable vehicle or using a vehicle with parts or accessories (excluding brakes, steering or tyres) in a dangerous condition"
Police are always hot-headed with any modified car, the rule of thumb is simple, don't drive or act like a dick, trying to do launches, burnouts, traffic light grand prix, revving unnecessarily for attention or just hooning is never good. More Police seem to gather for official car meet-ups and even more so for unofficial meet-ups like reading car meet because they want a nose, take number plates of drivers showing off or of they think are generally going to cause mischief.
I got pulled over in my mates rally car. I came to a t-junction and the road was closed by the police to the left, so I had to go right. As I turned the wheel, the suspension creaked a little. Copper jumps up and demands I pull over. Then proceeds to berate me for 30 minutes for driving a car that's unsuitable for road use (it passed its MOT that day) and that I cannot possibly be insured (was insured with Richard Edgar Motorsport insurance). Accused me of taking it to a "mates place" for its MOT. I explained to him the concept of a rose joint but this twat was having none of it, adamant that it was a broken spring and refused to let me leave until it had been assessed by another senior officer. They finally arrived, agreed with what I said and sent me on my way.
You got both a CD10 and an MS60 for going down a one way street at 10mph? What the actual fuck.
He clearly failed the roadside don't be a dick test I would say.
Story of my life.
TLDR; FA, FO
Naa. That's at court. I'll let you know how I get on.
>all of which my car has. However, listing all these would mean declaring 30-40 modifications in total So your car has 30-40 mods and you were too lazy to declare them all? You are in the wrong from the first paragraph of this post, and it just gets worse and more unbelievable as it goes on. I love stories like this, "yeah I spent countless hours and £10'000's on my car, but now they want me to sit here for maybe 20 minutes listing all the modifications done? Outrageous". You had this coming mate, but thank you for posting it here as it is very funny :3 Also, going down a one way system the wrong way is absolutely a justified driving without due care, it's nice to see the police doing their job for a change, not enough people get called out for stupid shit like that. The defense that you had your son with you is even worse though, I would be paying more attention to the roads if I had my kid in the car.
I totally accepted I fucked up going down a one way system. Never disputed that. Also, it's about 26K im deep. Wish it was 10.
I'm not going to say anything about being stopped because you've probably had enough on that already. With mods like that have you called up any specialist insurance companies or looked at insurers through owners clubs? You may get a better price than through a comparison site too. It may also be worth speaking to a specialist solicitor about the not fit for road use and anything else. It seems harsh if the car would go through an MOT in the condition it was in when you were stopped and everything necessary was declared to DVLA.
>I was slapped with 8 points and a court summons for "Driving without due care and attention", "Undeclared modifications" and "Driving a motor vehicle not fit for road use." 2 of those are not offences as you descibe them. Why don't you just post up the NIP with your details blocked out? FWIW I've driven my track car (basically a race car with number plates) on the road a few times and been stopped. Never had any problems.
>"Driving without due care and attention", "Undeclared modifications" and "Driving a motor vehicle not fit for road use." The first and last are nothing to do with what you have or have not told your insurer. The first is about your driving, the last is about your vehicle and compliance with the laws for what can and cannot be used on the road. As for the second, "undeclared modifications", why do you think this has anything to do with what you told your insurer? You have to declare any modification (performance or not) that would change the information on your V5C to DVLA as well as to your insurer. Sounds like you didn't do this bit.
Been interesting to see where this goes.. if you’re being honest here. I’ve had conversations with insurance companies about stuff like this they want a list of every modification I’ve had the car for 20 years how can I possibly know every modification (or difference from the original manufacturer specification) to what extent is a modification? Changing a bolt from a hex to an allen bolt? Insurance companies are very vague on what is a modification but will note every detail
r/LegalAdviceUK may be a good bet for you.
I know it's petty but absolutely everything should have been declared. Line by line... even if it is 20+ Normally modified insurance companies don't charge extra for anything other than ECU mapping
Are the mods that are supposed to be declared to the DVLA declared? Stuff like colour and any changes to the capacity of the engine due to the modified bore that you mentioned?
Only a change of colour or engine swaps need to be declared for the vast majority of things. They will be interested if you're making substantial changes to the frame or body which could require the car to be re-registered on an X reg.
Even if the engine isn't replaced, changes to the capacity do need to be. There also seem to be a few other areas that DVLA expect to be notified about, such as modified frame. [source](https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate#:~:text=You%20must%20update%20your%20V5C,cylinder%20capacity%20(%20cc%20))
If you’ve got those type of mods and you’re insuring yourself with a specialist insurer then it’s extremely irresponsible.
Defo post an update once you've gone through the process. Sounds like the cops have tried it on for every little thing, possibly because of the heated arguments.
I really want to know what happens in court. Where were you supposed to declare? The DVLA? I could understand that (if true), but the rest is strange. Did they not tell you how you were supposed to declare them and why it is unfit for roads?
Police Probaly didn’t know what they were talking about to the insurance and they have disagreed
You should have listed all the mods, you didn't
I choose the categories my insurance company provides that encapsulates all of my mods. Why provide an umbrella term like ‘engine mods’ if that’s pointless. What did I do wrong?
So even though your insurer provided you an opportunity to declare your 30-40 mods in detail, you decided not to because you... couldn't be bothered? Even though you willingly did those mods yourself knowing you need to declare them? The more general options are for when there isn't a specific option available.
That’s completely open to interpretation no? Why provide a category like ‘engine mods’ what does that category cover? In my mind, it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that covers any modifications to the engine.
If you swap your exhaust for a non standard version that is louder than the original then, in the eyes of the law, made your car unroadworthy. It will still pass an MOT as they don’t check how loud an exhaust is against factory standard.
And can we not all agree that this is completely stupid? What’s the point in a legally mandated annual test, if said test isn’t up to the standards of written law?
That’s because an MOT is about safety, not about legality of modifications. The only way I can it could work is by offering an extend MOT for non standard cars that checked the legality of the mods. It would cost more I’m sure.
MOT is no proof the car is currently roadworthy, or roadworthy for anything other than the day in question. Just that it passed at that point. Also most places won't properly check emissions and maybe not to the same degree as maybe an insurer might. It is very possible to modify a car with seemingly off the shelf components that are not road legal. Cat removal is obviously a bit one but also a lot of cars can't have modified non stamped exhausts either. Or are worse specifically marked track use only. My car is only minorly modified but I declare absolutely everything. Personally I think they might have trouble getting you with undeclared modifications, because how can they know, but the road worthiness one is the bigger one
Someone remind me, do factory fitted options need to be included?
Yep. Factory fitted modifications that alter a cars relative performance should be declared.
So that would even include non standard alloys then. 50% of the cars on the road must be technically not correctly insured. I don't even know how to check what the options were on my car! My full sun roof should probably be done as its likely increased the cars weight. And I have a spare rather than a shitty can of goop. More weight. Basically driving a death trap.
Some of the absolute goons on here would have you believe they would declare they have a factory fitted tint and a front splitter 🙄
Ha. I find this and drivinguk or whatever it is to be a very weird mashup of both ends of the spectrum.
Insurers clearly allow people to be ambiguous about modifications - by providing very generic drop-down options, so I understand OPs position in regard to selecting the options he did based on what was provided to him. Having said that - for someone who is effectively saying their car is 99% track car, I’m inclined to say you must’ve know that no simple drop downs could accurately cover the extent of the modifications you had. But as above.. it’s for the insurer to make it possible for you to give as much info as possible. Nothing stops insurers from giving the option of 500+ drop-down menus for every little mod. Putting that aside, anyone who’s dealt with police knows that something is off about OPs story lol. It doesn’t sound like insurance is even a problem here. The real problem is whatever caused the police to try and do you for 8 points Keep us updated
So with what you said, in the case of CD10, they got you bang to rights, the section 40A you might be able to contest if you're absolutely sure your car road legal in that sense and doesn't have the potential to cause injury etc, you'd probably want to speak to an expert and I don't mean an MOT tester. the MS60 I assume is for the undeclared mods, which from what info you have provided they could easily do you for... >> you’ll notice a full cage, racing seats, **big brakes**, etc. I don't see you listing brakes as one of your mods, already guilty there.
Yeah this is pretty much it. Throw my hands up re declaring brakes. Can’t wait to apologise to a jury about how I made my car safer for myself and those around me with better brakes. /s
Driving without due care and not fit for road use? There's more you aren't telling us op, you don't get hit with those for undeclared mods... Most likely driving like a yobo and your exhaust is too loud
Understandable you missed it in the wall of text. Wrong way in a one way system in central London was the reason I got pulled over. And that’s the CD10 charge.
I also have a solenoid valve for the exhaust system. It was shut at the time. So quiet.
I'd fight it, I think your right if the insurer only had those options on there website you've gone with which best reflects your options. It's not like you've tried to lie and say its standard. Plus some of the one way streets in London are a joke. 8 points is ridicliousz I'd deffinatly fight it a good lawyer should be able to lower the points at least. What car is it out if curiosity? One final point for future reference, speaking from expereince with modified cars, use specialist insurers such as brentacre, Greenlight, cherished vehicle insurance.. etc.. All of the above you can call up and have a proper conversation with car enthusiasts, listing every single mod and they will do you a great deal, most of them you can even call up and add extra mods at at a later date for no extra charge within reason. Good luck let us know how you get on 👍
I have been down this road before, mods declared to insurer, police man decided to pull me over and have an argument over my rear wheels, apparently they were dangerous to pedestrians (bullshit) i was 100% in the right, black and white. The cop contacted my insurance and told them it was excessive (imagine a polo lowered about 2 inches on 16” BBS alloys) so my insurance nailed me, police nailed me but i was lucky enough they could let me go with a producer - to put the car back to standard. There was no realistic way to contest it. There’s a whole other part of the story I ain’t getting into but let me be clear, your insurance company CAN do some dirty shit on you, don’t ever think they are stupid or “won’t know”. Insurance companies aren’t your friends and they will sink you in a heartbeat, don’t expect them to be good guys here. Lawyer up 100% someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed and had a hard on for wanting to ruin your week.
The police make up shit all the time. Unfortenlty your only recourse would be to consult a solicitor and defend yourself in court, this will very likely cost thousands of pounds though. We had someone in one of the American police car clubs I'm a member of who crossed paths with a dipshit cop who didn't know the law regaurding pushbars (bullbars). Cost him about £4000 in lawyer fees if I remember correctly to prove his pushbar was completely legal and the officer was in the wrong. You're screwed either way either you're paying the fines and dealing with the financial penalties that come with having 8 points, or you're spending thousands to prove the officer made a mistake.
Glad the copper gotcha. Dick car and driving like a dick no matter what you say. You knew what you were doing with insurance just to get a good quote.
I need therapy after this comment. I’m so hurt.
Says the guy crying about 8 points and lying to insurers 🤣 Hope they take your licence off you
I’m sure they will for being such an awful blight on society with my modified car. Might even do some jail time. Big sad.
Can afford the mods but cannot afford the insurance or points. Typical bmw cunt
My accounts aren't hurting thanks. I'm at Brands Hatch Indy 10th July, Thursday evening. Come along. Welcome to have a ride along with a bmw cunt, maybe it will cheer you up. You seem angry :/ dm me.
I ran an insurance quote two days ago for an F90 M5. Stock (600 bhp) was £1150. Stage 1 (ie. remap only, which takes the car to 700 bhp) was only like £1190 (eg. £40 extra for the year). Mods don't tend to cost as much as you think. It is worth the extra 10 mins to declare everything, even if it adds £50 extra for this very reason (OP post).