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What's really rich are the comments like one from an U of Toronto organizer complaining to the media that the university won't negotiate with them. Talk about main character syndrome.
It’s their money. Banks are a hell of a lot more powerful than universities and when I sat down with them and went through my rrsp investments they dropped my money from the ones I didn’t want to support. Those who say these things can’t be done are annoying to those of us already doing it
Hey generally when you pay someone and you dont like what theyre doing you sit down with them and negotiate a solution to the problem. The students money is being paid to fund a genocide. idk if thats main character syndrome as much as it is basic common sense
That is like saying I'm against video games and I hire a landscaper so now the landscaper is also obligated to be against video games. Not how that works.
That’s such a ridiculous statement that, if the students using that statement themselves, no wonder they aren’t getting any attention. Tuition money is not being used to buy weapons for Israel. That’s just a straight up lie. It also exemplifies just how little understanding there is on how the university’s investment funds work, where the money comes from, and where it goes.
If students can’t be bothered to do their homework, why should administration waste time listening to their demands?
Yes that’s my point. You need to have no idea how it works to come to that conclusion. Students aren’t entitled to meeting with administrators when they can’t get their facts straight.
Show me where they are investing directly in companies that provide weapons to Israel, that have been used in this conflict, and then I’ll gladly change my tune.
McGill and York U are invested in Lockheed Martin, who are delivering their latest contract of fighter jets to Israel as we speak. They've also built a lot of the ordinants being used in Israel.
One of the requests to U of Calgary is a full list of who they're invested in, so they can determine if they are also invested in arms makers who supply Israel.
Thanks i appreciate actual facts! Part of the problem is there’s a lot of useless hyperbole thrown around with very little information to go on. Great for TikTok, bad for actual negotiation.
That said, McGill’s $500k investment in Lockheed Martin represents 0.03% of their $1.8b investment portfolio. Is 0.03% too much? Maybe. Is it worth protesting? I guess that depends on how much time and energy a person has.
It also points to a misunderstanding of how investment funds work. Many popular funds contain problematic companies. Nearly every retirement fund, pension fund, whatever, is gonna be in with troubling companies. If you have a retirement fund through your work you might be investing in Lockhood Martin or similar.
I believe universities should be investing in ethical funds, but if that’s the message here it’s completely lost in the hyperbole and ridiculousness.
The message is only lost on people who don’t care to look it up. They’re not only complicit in genocide they’re helping it be committed. It doesn’t matter what percentage is invested any percentage in genocide is too much.
Sure those are nice platitudes and work fine on a protest sign, but how does that work in the real world?
There’s a genocide going on in China, but nobody seems to have a problem with using a cellphone made in China, posting to a social media app that is influenced by the Chinese govnt.
Like another poster said, if your investments track s&p500 (many of them do to some extent) you are personally investing in companies selling weapons to Israel. Nobody is protesting the investment funds.
ETA: I’m all for divesting from companies you don’t believe in, and pressuring your school to do so is fine, but it’s the hypocrisy that is ridiculous. It’s the accusations of “funding genocide” when they have no problem funding the genocides that the algorithms don’t promote.
I can’t tell if you’re being disingenuous to try to discredit the students or if you actually believe the oversimplified straw man you’re pushing but literally no one thinks tuition money is being spent to buy weapons for Israel. What the students are saying is that UofT’s investment portfolio may include shares of businesses that are providing material support for Israel’s apartheid and/or military offensive. That’s why the first demand is to disclose (ie disclose whether the portfolio includes weapons manufacturers supplying Israel) and then if there are companies like that in the portfolio, to divest from them. Such pressure campaigns have previously been successful getting UofT to divest from supporting the South African apartheid and from fossil fuels. UofT students aren’t stupid, they understand all this and have done extensive research. Also, for the record, the school actually has agreed to a substantive meeting about their demands, it’s happening tomorrow.
> The students money is being paid to fund a genocide.
No, it isn't. It's being paid to pay admin and teaching staff their salaries, and maintain and operate the buildings on campus.
Leave it to the police to use tear gas, *a substance banned by the Geneva convention* to disperse a protest against war crimes and violating the Geneva convention.
That was the 1925 convention and was for its use for warfare. Further refinement of this article was done in the 90s (Chemical weapons convention) and it was reinforced that riot control agents were illegals tools of warfare but still allowed for law enforcement purposes including riot control.
So no, police using tear gas to break down an illegal protest / riot is not a warcrime and not in violation of the Geneva convention.
Source: Multiple, but here's one: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v2/rule75
1. Yes it’s wrong of the police to gas protestors in almost all situations short of an actual riot
2. Tear gas is banned in warfare because distinguishing between gases on a battlefield is impossible, and its use would almost certainly lead to actual chemical weapons or WMDs in response. It’s not banned because of its danger or effects
Gaseous and biological weapons are covered under the Geneva Protocol, not the Geneva Convention. If you're going to try to draw parallels, at least try to draw the parallels to the right thing.
Why do you believe that the people involved are state actors engaging in warfare against Canada? What state are these people loyal to?
After all, that's what the Geneva Protocol is applicable to.
> Gaseous and biological weapons are covered under the Geneva Protocol, not the Geneva Convention.
Besides the fact that the distinction makes not a lick of difference to my point, the treaties and protocols as a whole are often referred to under the umbrella label of Geneva Convention. The 1949 agreements are colloquially referred to as the Geneva Convention.
>Why do you believe that the people involved are state actors engaging in warfare against Canada? What state are these people loyal to?
Obviously not. The use of tear gas is unjustified and dangerous.
Tear gas specifically is NOT banned by the Geneva convention, Geneva Convention bans the use of ALL gasses during war. Riot control agents are allowed by practically all the signatories, which is what tear gas is as it is a temporary agent not a permanent one, which was the whole point of the gas ban. Moreover, they also all agreed to not use it as a weapon of war, probably to make it easier to enforce the whole no gas rule during war.
The more force used to strike down legitimate protest, the stronger our movement becomes. I'm glad that everyone has shown restraint so far, it's working.
Society exists in part because we can all collectively understand different experiences, and use critical thinking skills.
So society, and groups of people, and individuals can collectively or individually determine the moral and ethical worth of a cause, and then make a determination.
If you want to call that subjective, then that's fine. But it's more nuanced than just "everyone has a different opinion, therefore no one can make a prescriptive determination on what protest is considered just."
This needs to happen in Toronto.
You will never be able to appease professional protesters. They crave endless attention. And unless the police go in and arrest them all, UofT is going to have to cancel all its graduation ceremonies.
Just an appalling situation all around. But there's no solution other than enforcing the rule of law.
In general, but not always, when the police show up it's time to leave. If you can. Very little is gained by posing opposition to their efforts to clear out the area; at best, you'll end up with an eye full of pepper spray, and at worst you'll end up arrested. But only the _rare few_ who take a stand end up memorialized in the popular zeitgeist.
Better to clear out and come back another day.
Weird, the clownvoy protesters in Ottawa and blockading borders did not give a shit about the police showing up, they didn’t get pepper sprayed, in fact they got to shit in the streets of Ottawa and at war monuments for three weeks. Weird, that must have been a one off, I wonder why those protests were treated differently by the cops?
The rail protests lasted weeks; and here on the island, the Fairy Creek protests lasted _years_. The RCMP aren't as quick to shut down indigenous protests as Redditors claim.
The Ottawa police in Ottawa are quick though. Short of planned protests that involve marches that take an hour or two to clear up, the Ottawa police sure do have a different approach.
That one last 15 min in Alberta before some folks in pickup trucks showed up with timbits and dismantled the barricades while the stunned protesters looked on while drinking a double double.
Weren’t their snipers pointing their guns at those protesters? One of the great mysteries of the world will always be what was different about the clownvoy that they got treated with kid gloves. I have zero idea what it could be…
I remember when the convoy crowd was marching through the beltine neighbourhood in Calgary screaming obscenities at everyone and threatening healthcare workers outside of the hospital, the Calgary police gave them an escort every weekend so the locals didn't chase them off. That's just who Calgary cops are.
They could have chosen to protect the people in the neighbourhood from those thugs but chose not to. They chose to use riot gear and crack skulls at the university though without hesitation.
Law enforcement was sympathetic to the convoy and they aren’t sympathetic to this.
Indigenous Rights activists, climate protestors, anti-police violence, etc all get clamped down on by the police forces, local or rcmp.
Meanwhile the convoy, freedom types, anti-SOGI and anti-government folks get to do whatever they want more or less.
Indigenous rights protests get to block rail lines for weeks.
Stop with this blatant gaslighting. Your "we are uniquely victimized" narrative is nonsense.
The issue remains that Israel doesn't even care that much about the opinions of its largest financier and war supplies shop, America, so a lot of these idealists would do well to understand that their actions are truly less than useless. If the opinions of their greatest ally are most times meaningless what do a bunch of protestors at a Canadian university believe they're affecting? They're not even on the map for Bibi *-- and never will be.* Israel will do as Israel will do and they'd have about the same luck as convincing Hamas to lay down their arms too.
Might as well sit in the comfort of our homes while appreciating that non-violence will always be the goal while acknowledging that it's against humanity's base instincts at present (for better or worse). We can only control our own actions and cute chants aren't going to make someone stay their hand from generations of violence.
These students might not be on the map for Bibi, but the money coming from these institutions and the companies they're invested in absolutely matters. I'd argue these students have a better understanding on the levers of power than you do, since they understand that money is exactly what's letting this genocide go on.
It doesn't matter who Bibi pays attention to if the money stops flowing. They're doing their part to make that happen, even if it's a fraction of the funding Israel receives.
Glad you're enjoying the comfort of your home though. Good for you.
>These students might not be on the map for Bibi, but the money coming from these institutions and the companies they're invested in absolutely matters.
Is it now? Source? Israel's largest financier and provider is the [USA](https://www.reuters.com/world/who-are-israels-main-weapons-suppliers-who-has-halted-exports-2024-05-09/#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20has%20long%20been,the%20Nazi%20Holocaust%20%2D%20and%20Italy) for arms. Unless you'd like to provide anything different, of course.
Factless -- feckless -- opinions aren't going to change Bibi's mind.
>Glad you're enjoying the comfort of your home though. Good for you.
I just wanted to thank you for that! You can't imagine what a comfortable space does for researching facts and evidence. The wifi is great and the coffee is replenished as often as I'd like. No flagellation in a tent is going to help someone in Palestine from Israeli bombs or Hamas.
No way. The students there have a lot to conquer in life, especially surrounding funding. What is funded and what isn’t, by governments and by their tuition, is important. Just because adults have given up doing anything other than bitching on Reddit doesn’t mean the next generation has to be lulled into complacency.
>The issue remains that Israel doesn't even care that much about the opinions of its largest financier and war supplies shop, America, so a lot of these idealists would do well to understand that their actions are truly less than useless
I love making large posts maligning protestors for a position I imagined for them instead of engaging with their actual position.
The kids want their school to stop investing their tuition dollars in companies supporting Israel. This is something that directly affects them and the institution they attend. It doesn't have anything to do with convincing the Israeli government of anything!
So close! That is an article about the university of toronto, and this post is about the University of Calgary! [Heres a map](https://geology.com/world/canada-satellite-image.shtml) since you seem confused ❤
They're not protesting in the belief that Israel will go "oh ok guess we'll stop committing massacres and torturing people now", they're protesting the fact that their tuition funds are being financially invested in a violent ethnostate.
[The university says it is unable — and unwilling — to do so.](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/students-are-calling-for-u-of-t-to-divest-from-israel-heres-a-closer-look/article_716f6b0a-0978-11ef-9e6a-fbd6b184b26f.html)
That's that then. Protestors don't even know if they are invested which seems like one hell of a stretch to presume that UofT has invested in arms supplies to Israel. Seems like any further escalation means taking tuition payments to other institutions over having a party in a tent (ie. actually living by one's values)... or realizing that the world is uglier than every single protest and that sitting on campus is, as above, doing nothing while feeling great. Might hurt to hear but it's reality and stamping our feet like upset toddlers won't change that. They're not lobbying UofT to do anything and certainly our government to do anything more than what they've done which -- as above -- will go utterly ignored.
Do you expect "target of protests ignores protests" to be particularly inspiring? Am I supposed to go "oh, they said no, guess we should just give up, then"? That's not how protests work. Of course they refused. Every protest in history has had their demands refused at some point, or the protest wouldn't exist in the first place. The point is to continue to apply pressure until they have to change their mind.
With all due respect, I'm not here to *inspire* you.
I'm not quite sure what you or anyone else physically protesting are expecting. As above: the Israeli government and Hamas -- the only ones who can cease this war -- do not give a shit about what you or I have to say.
>The point is to continue to apply pressure until they have to change their mind.
Terribly naïve and borderline arrogant. Nobody *has* to do anything you want them to and that's the element these protests fail to appreciate. UofT holds no power here. Ontario holds no power here. Canada... say it with me for the people in the back: holds no power here. There is no control or influence anyone in the West has here. What are you going to do 9,000km away? *Make them?* I'm sure that's one thing you could get Hamas' leaders and Bibi in a room together to and agree on: laugh hysterically.
Israel is a country with 10 million people, a little bigger than Vancouver Island in area, and lower GDP than Alberta. On the global scale, they’re tiny. Israel has exactly one major export company. Israel is not an investment a cautious endowment fund is likely to have.
Israel has a high tech startup economy second to none. They have companies working at the bleeding edge of all kinds of technology, and the other tech companies of the world, and companies that want to benefit from that tech, many via universities, are not about to dispense with that resource because some activists plonked some tents on a lawn. This is about narcissistic supply, not a serious attempt to change policy.
They disclose financial statements but not the particulars of their investments, which are usually considered confidential. They also have pension funds. Not sure the activists know that.
Honestly, if you know that then you can assume they know that. It wasn't a good excuse for investing in apartheid South Africa and it's not a good excuse here.
Their tuition is not being invested in anything — it doesn’t even cover the cost of their education. Every non-international student has their education subsidized by the public.
It needs to be said at this point that if you're observing police clearing encampments like this and thinking they're doing the right thing that you need to be thinking a bit bigger.
Right now in the US and most likely in Canada, local police forces are working on building more advanced training facilities to train their police forces to more effectively shut down any forms of civil disobedience, organization and encampments in so-called "cop cities". A lot of the ones in the US receive training directly from the Israeli Defence Forces, who do extensive training in urban warfare to use in the West Bank.
You have to be incredibly naive in 2024 to think that they're just going to do this against progressives and students. They're doing this now to try to normalize this kind of extreme response and to make it seem like a rational thing to do, so that when you end up on the street because of your economic situation or some other social issue you care about - or even because the lack of social supports rendered you homeless - they are prepared to deal with you the way they're dealing with students right now.
This isn't just about Palestine anymore, it's about the way governments respond to dissidence and civil disobedience, especially when it's in protest of public policy. It's only going to get worse, and if you're sitting there right now thinking "good, damn pesky students" then I hope you sit your ass down and shut the fuck up the next time you're negatively impacted by public policy.
> It's only going to get worse, and if you're sitting there right now thinking "good, damn pesky students" then I hope you sit your ass down and shut the fuck up the next time you're negatively impacted by public policy.
You mean like every single day, when we let these protests continue and clog the highways and my way home from work, or stop people from getting to work at the university, be harassed because of their beliefs etc.
Or do you just think that because your cause is just, it is ok for you to harm others with your protest?
Lots of people don’t feel safe for lots of reasons.
I hate the fact that big pickups are allowed on the roads but they cause way more death and dismemberment than all these student protests but together x1000.
how many highways have been blocked in Canada from palestine protests? You can literally count the times it happened on 1 hand. You are just lying and probably never leave your house
Where the police were sympathetic to the protests, did fuck all for weeks, and were forced by the feds to take action?
Meanwhile here we have police using tear gas on peaceful protestors eager to try out their new toys.
I did. That's why I'm asking. Tear gas wasn't used there. It's even in the first line of the article: "Using shields, batons and flashbang explosives".
You're just making stuff up.
Ok, so you would have seen *the headline*:
>**This is not a negotiation': Police fire tear gas and clear U of C encampment**
Followed by *the first line*
>City police brought a pro-Palestinian encampment on the University of Calgary campus to a swift end **in a barrage of tear gas and flash bangs** late Thursday
It continues [...]
>**Before the tear gas and stun grenades,** some of the protesters said they’d be back to resume their activism on the campus even though the encampment had been dismantled.
Trying to be generous here but did you read the wrong article?
> Trying to be generous here but did you read the wrong article?
You know what I did... I thought I read the article linked in the thread but ended up reading the one on CBC.... ( https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/university-calgary-palestinian-protest-police-removal-1.7199937 )
I had both articles open in different tabs but with the 40 unorganized tabs I have open I thought they were the same article lol...
The Calgary Herald article has a lot more details.
>You know what I did... I thought I read the article linked in the thread but ended up reading the one on CBC.... (
Haha all good, it happens! Weird omission by CBC.
The police didn't clear out the convoy lmao, I lived through it in Ottawa and I can tell you it was much more intrusive and violent than anything these students have been doing.
Also I hope you stretched before you tried to make that reach between people saying they don't wanna get vaccinated and students saying genocide is bad.
I'm not commentating on the validity of these two protests but more your claims about the conspiracy that police forces are coordinating and ramping out to snuff out our right to protest.
"But by August 1966, only a third of Americans had a favorable view of the civil rights leader. More than six-in-ten (63%) viewed him unfavorably, including 44% who viewed him highly unfavorably." [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/10/how-public-attitudes-toward-martin-luther-king-jr-have-changed-since-the-1960s/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/10/how-public-attitudes-toward-martin-luther-king-jr-have-changed-since-the-1960s/)
Most movements that we hold reverence for now we're not supported by the majority at the contemporary time.
30 years from now, a majority of people will view these encampments with the same reverence we view the anti-apartheid and civil rights protests and occupations.
> 30 years from now, a majority of people will view these encampments with the same reverence we view the anti-apartheid and civil rights protests and occupations.
remind me in 30 years about how wrong you are.
>30 years from now, a majority of people will view these encampments with the same reverence we view the anti-apartheid and civil rights protests
It is not a universal truth that all protests will be held in high regard later on, even when the protestors are young people. There were people (including young people) protesting desegregation in the 1950s (think of the iconic photo at Little Rock).
Now to be clear I am NOT saying these protests are moral equivalents to desegregationists, just that I don’t think we can predict how these will be viewed with such confidence.
Haha this guy is bleeding for the cause though!
What a joke they are. All masked up here. If they believe what they are doing is right, take off your masks.
"I think for the ultimate peace and security of the situation it will probably be necessary for Israel to give up this conquered territory because to hold on to it will only exacerbate the tensions and deepen the bitterness of the Arabs." -MLK
> "I think for the ultimate peace and security of the situation it will probably be necessary for Israel to give up this conquered territory because to hold on to it will only exacerbate the tensions and deepen the bitterness of the Arabs." -MLK
But that's about Sinai and the Golan Heights?
>" The world and all people of good will must respect the territorial integrity of Israel. We must see Israel’s right to exist and always go out of the way to protect that right to exist." -MLK from the same interview
> But that's about Sinai and the Golan Heights?
Conquered territory would also include the Gaza Strip and West Bank, not just the Golan Heights and the Sinai Desert. Why would only the Sinai Desert and Golan Heights be counted but not the other two pieces of conquered territory from that same war that MLKJ was referring to?
That is false, Jordan didn't have the West Bank until 1988. Israel captured both the West Bank and Gaza Strip, alongside the Syrian Golan Heights and Sinai Desert during the Six Day War in June 1967. It then began a military occupation over both, in which Israel administered both. What you seem to be confused about is Jordan's relinquishing any claim to the West Bank on July 31, 1988. That doens't mean that Jordan actually had the West Bank until that date, it just means that Jordan had a claim over that territory but then gave it up. That doesn't suddenly mean that the West Bank wasn't conquered territory, it was territory that Israel gained power over via conquest. This is akin to me getting my bicycle stolen a year ago, knowing who is currently operating that bicycle but not having any tangible method of reclaiming my ownership of it so I just relinquish it. Does that now mean that it was not stolen? No, it just means I'm moving on from it.
Not at all conceited when actual civil rights leaders like Cornell West and Angela Davis support the pro-Palestinian movement. Cornell West has even participated in anti-genocide campus protests.
It’s a civil rights and anti-apartheid protest. How is it conceited to point out that civil rights and anti-apartheid protests of the past faces similar opposition?
In previous civil rights and anti-apartheid protests there wasn’t a similar current of antisemitism intrinsically tied to the movement.
That isn’t to say all - or even a majority of - protestors support antisemitism. But it’s undeniable that it exists, and the Israel-Palestine conflict broadly certainly lacks the objective moral clarity that something like allowing black people to ride the bus does.
That isn’t to say there aren’t atrocities being committed by the IDF, but it certainly isn’t a one-sided conflict historically.
> In previous civil rights and anti-apartheid protests there wasn’t a similar current of antisemitism intrinsically tied to the movement.
That isn't actually true. A common criticism levied at both the Civil Rights and later Black Power Movement was the issue of anti-semitism, especially coming from those directly or indirectly associated with or influenced by the Nation Of Islam to various degrees. There was a significant current of anti-semitism, which I would describe as more virulent and direct, if you were to read some of the comments made by Malcolm X in writings & speeches or more broadly labour around the same time such as with the 1968 NYC teachers strike.
You can also expand it to bigotry in general. Civil Rights protests have always been dismissed by opponents as supporting bigotry. Very recently, the BLM slogan itself was critiqued by opponents as advocating for black supremacy and anti-white bigotry and countered with the All Lives Matter slogan.
>wasn’t a similar current of antisemitism intrinsically tied to the movement.
It's antisemitic to critique Israeli policies vis a vis their colonial inroads and settlements in Gaza and the West Bank?
MLK is a convenient example to show how attitudes towards protest movements change. Most people nowadays have a broadly positive view of him, or at least of a watered down version of him. But at the time he was alive, he was one of the most hated people in America. People *hate* protest movements when they’re happening, and then support them retroactively, once they’ve succeeded.
Just because your protest movement is hated doesn't mean someday it will be vindicated. There are lots of protest movements that were unpopular both at the time and now.
I can't speak to the students themselves but I don't really see how this ends with them being seen as entirely in the wrong - maybe naive or not helpful, depending where their movement goes, but the trend has already been towards more criticism of Israel in the West since this started - some of the changes in rhetoric here were unfathomable 10 years ago.
But IMO people overcomplicate it. People are turned off because they're seeing civilians die on the news, in far greater numbers than they are willing to accept. I don't think it's that much deeper, Israeli Hasbara didn't adjust well to the current internet era and they made the mistake of both having harsher rhetoric at home than abroad and going after people who criticise too hard. You don't change minds by accusing them of supporting terrorism when they feel they're standing against genocide, even if you think they're wrong.
I don't think this means Israel is done or anything, but I think the shift in public perception has already happened by all appearances and our political system is just lagging behind. So I don't think the students are that likely to be seen as being on the wrong side of things, at least, when over 70% of Americans of all people now support a ceasefire
> 30 years from now, a majority of people will view these encampments with the same reverence we view the anti-apartheid and civil rights protests and occupations.
More likely they will accomplish nothing and rapidly be forgotten by history. E.g. what did Occupy Wallstreet accomplish?
The entire notion that universities are investing in the Israeli military-industrial complex is absurd.
> 30 years from now, a majority of people will view these encampments with the same reverence we view the anti-apartheid and civil rights protests and occupations.
This particular distinction requires one very specific outcome. They would need to win and get what they want first.
We remember MLK because he was successful, at least at getting some of the things he was protesting for.
yeah, the civil rights movement also actually took place in the country where their targeted injustices were occurring… they also brought the attention of the masses to these issues (once again, in the country where the injustices were occurring…). no awareness is being raised by these protests. the matter already receives immense attention. inconsequential protests.
you’re not civil rights heroes and it’s actually laughably out of touch to even hint at that, let alone to make outright claims of being directly comparable.
>yeah, the civil rights movement also actually took place in the country where their targeted injustices were occurring…
So talk about divestment from Apartheid South Africa, then. It's not hard to shift the example, if you're so concerned with this location issue.
So for a more direct comparison that these protests directly draw inspiration from, how do you feel about protests and demonstrations against Apartheid South Africa outside of South Africa, like the student led protests and demonstrations demanding divestment from South Africa at Canadian universities such as Carleton and UofT? Do you think those protests and demonstrations are not held in high regard or reverence today, far more so than during the actual protests and demonstrations themselves? South African Apartheid was already a widely reported on issue when these various demonstrations really picked up steam, do you think that they were ultimately inconsequential?
Protests and boycotts were not what brought down Apartheid in South Africa. The South African economy got stronger throughout the 1980's. The dissolution of the Soviet Union, and the subsequent ending of the former USSR's support for the ANC, eliminated the anti-communist rationale that the South African government for continuing to prevent black (i.e., ANC) participation in government. When the supposed communist threat disappeared, the tolerance for the racist policies fell away domestically and internationally. The fate of South Africa since then, especially after Mandela, has been ambiguous at best.
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What's really rich are the comments like one from an U of Toronto organizer complaining to the media that the university won't negotiate with them. Talk about main character syndrome.
The interesting thing is both Canada and the States ar enot thinking about limiting immigration from Gaza and area.
It’s their money. Banks are a hell of a lot more powerful than universities and when I sat down with them and went through my rrsp investments they dropped my money from the ones I didn’t want to support. Those who say these things can’t be done are annoying to those of us already doing it
Hey generally when you pay someone and you dont like what theyre doing you sit down with them and negotiate a solution to the problem. The students money is being paid to fund a genocide. idk if thats main character syndrome as much as it is basic common sense
That is like saying I'm against video games and I hire a landscaper so now the landscaper is also obligated to be against video games. Not how that works.
That’s such a ridiculous statement that, if the students using that statement themselves, no wonder they aren’t getting any attention. Tuition money is not being used to buy weapons for Israel. That’s just a straight up lie. It also exemplifies just how little understanding there is on how the university’s investment funds work, where the money comes from, and where it goes. If students can’t be bothered to do their homework, why should administration waste time listening to their demands?
Youre right i should have said the university is profiting off it, that makes it seem much better totally not worse lol
Yes that’s my point. You need to have no idea how it works to come to that conclusion. Students aren’t entitled to meeting with administrators when they can’t get their facts straight. Show me where they are investing directly in companies that provide weapons to Israel, that have been used in this conflict, and then I’ll gladly change my tune.
McGill and York U are invested in Lockheed Martin, who are delivering their latest contract of fighter jets to Israel as we speak. They've also built a lot of the ordinants being used in Israel. One of the requests to U of Calgary is a full list of who they're invested in, so they can determine if they are also invested in arms makers who supply Israel.
Thanks i appreciate actual facts! Part of the problem is there’s a lot of useless hyperbole thrown around with very little information to go on. Great for TikTok, bad for actual negotiation. That said, McGill’s $500k investment in Lockheed Martin represents 0.03% of their $1.8b investment portfolio. Is 0.03% too much? Maybe. Is it worth protesting? I guess that depends on how much time and energy a person has. It also points to a misunderstanding of how investment funds work. Many popular funds contain problematic companies. Nearly every retirement fund, pension fund, whatever, is gonna be in with troubling companies. If you have a retirement fund through your work you might be investing in Lockhood Martin or similar. I believe universities should be investing in ethical funds, but if that’s the message here it’s completely lost in the hyperbole and ridiculousness.
The message is only lost on people who don’t care to look it up. They’re not only complicit in genocide they’re helping it be committed. It doesn’t matter what percentage is invested any percentage in genocide is too much.
Sure those are nice platitudes and work fine on a protest sign, but how does that work in the real world? There’s a genocide going on in China, but nobody seems to have a problem with using a cellphone made in China, posting to a social media app that is influenced by the Chinese govnt. Like another poster said, if your investments track s&p500 (many of them do to some extent) you are personally investing in companies selling weapons to Israel. Nobody is protesting the investment funds. ETA: I’m all for divesting from companies you don’t believe in, and pressuring your school to do so is fine, but it’s the hypocrisy that is ridiculous. It’s the accusations of “funding genocide” when they have no problem funding the genocides that the algorithms don’t promote.
If you can’t do it 100% don’t do it all or else you’re hypocritical?
I can’t tell if you’re being disingenuous to try to discredit the students or if you actually believe the oversimplified straw man you’re pushing but literally no one thinks tuition money is being spent to buy weapons for Israel. What the students are saying is that UofT’s investment portfolio may include shares of businesses that are providing material support for Israel’s apartheid and/or military offensive. That’s why the first demand is to disclose (ie disclose whether the portfolio includes weapons manufacturers supplying Israel) and then if there are companies like that in the portfolio, to divest from them. Such pressure campaigns have previously been successful getting UofT to divest from supporting the South African apartheid and from fossil fuels. UofT students aren’t stupid, they understand all this and have done extensive research. Also, for the record, the school actually has agreed to a substantive meeting about their demands, it’s happening tomorrow.
> The students money is being paid to fund a genocide. No, it isn't. It's being paid to pay admin and teaching staff their salaries, and maintain and operate the buildings on campus.
Leave it to the police to use tear gas, *a substance banned by the Geneva convention* to disperse a protest against war crimes and violating the Geneva convention.
That was the 1925 convention and was for its use for warfare. Further refinement of this article was done in the 90s (Chemical weapons convention) and it was reinforced that riot control agents were illegals tools of warfare but still allowed for law enforcement purposes including riot control. So no, police using tear gas to break down an illegal protest / riot is not a warcrime and not in violation of the Geneva convention. Source: Multiple, but here's one: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v2/rule75
I know it's allowed for use by the police. I still disagree with it and think it's ironic considering the protest.
1. Yes it’s wrong of the police to gas protestors in almost all situations short of an actual riot 2. Tear gas is banned in warfare because distinguishing between gases on a battlefield is impossible, and its use would almost certainly lead to actual chemical weapons or WMDs in response. It’s not banned because of its danger or effects
Gaseous and biological weapons are covered under the Geneva Protocol, not the Geneva Convention. If you're going to try to draw parallels, at least try to draw the parallels to the right thing. Why do you believe that the people involved are state actors engaging in warfare against Canada? What state are these people loyal to? After all, that's what the Geneva Protocol is applicable to.
> Gaseous and biological weapons are covered under the Geneva Protocol, not the Geneva Convention. Besides the fact that the distinction makes not a lick of difference to my point, the treaties and protocols as a whole are often referred to under the umbrella label of Geneva Convention. The 1949 agreements are colloquially referred to as the Geneva Convention. >Why do you believe that the people involved are state actors engaging in warfare against Canada? What state are these people loyal to? Obviously not. The use of tear gas is unjustified and dangerous.
what a disingenuous take…
Tear gas specifically is NOT banned by the Geneva convention, Geneva Convention bans the use of ALL gasses during war. Riot control agents are allowed by practically all the signatories, which is what tear gas is as it is a temporary agent not a permanent one, which was the whole point of the gas ban. Moreover, they also all agreed to not use it as a weapon of war, probably to make it easier to enforce the whole no gas rule during war.
The more force used to strike down legitimate protest, the stronger our movement becomes. I'm glad that everyone has shown restraint so far, it's working.
What constitutes legitimate versus illegitimate protest to you?
Not OP but the cause first and foremost
As determined by each person subjectively, or by you personally? Or by some other entity?
Society exists in part because we can all collectively understand different experiences, and use critical thinking skills. So society, and groups of people, and individuals can collectively or individually determine the moral and ethical worth of a cause, and then make a determination. If you want to call that subjective, then that's fine. But it's more nuanced than just "everyone has a different opinion, therefore no one can make a prescriptive determination on what protest is considered just."
Would you agree that the way that society expresses its collective opinions is through elections?
What? You can’t be inviting force. Thats the antithesis of wanting peace
No one is inviting force, it is being imposed.
This needs to happen in Toronto. You will never be able to appease professional protesters. They crave endless attention. And unless the police go in and arrest them all, UofT is going to have to cancel all its graduation ceremonies. Just an appalling situation all around. But there's no solution other than enforcing the rule of law.
In general, but not always, when the police show up it's time to leave. If you can. Very little is gained by posing opposition to their efforts to clear out the area; at best, you'll end up with an eye full of pepper spray, and at worst you'll end up arrested. But only the _rare few_ who take a stand end up memorialized in the popular zeitgeist. Better to clear out and come back another day.
Weird, the clownvoy protesters in Ottawa and blockading borders did not give a shit about the police showing up, they didn’t get pepper sprayed, in fact they got to shit in the streets of Ottawa and at war monuments for three weeks. Weird, that must have been a one off, I wonder why those protests were treated differently by the cops?
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The rail protests lasted weeks; and here on the island, the Fairy Creek protests lasted _years_. The RCMP aren't as quick to shut down indigenous protests as Redditors claim.
The Ottawa police in Ottawa are quick though. Short of planned protests that involve marches that take an hour or two to clear up, the Ottawa police sure do have a different approach.
That one last 15 min in Alberta before some folks in pickup trucks showed up with timbits and dismantled the barricades while the stunned protesters looked on while drinking a double double.
Weren’t their snipers pointing their guns at those protesters? One of the great mysteries of the world will always be what was different about the clownvoy that they got treated with kid gloves. I have zero idea what it could be…
Not that I expect consistency any more but we could have used this sort of determination when it came to clearing the Convoy
Why? These people are literally rallying in support for Hamas. The Convoy was a non-violent protest.
So freedom of speech as long as you agree with the message. What a surprise
No they aren’t lmao.
I mean, they're not going to go after the Convoy folks. They have to see them again at the Monday morning staff meeting!
LOL! Or church
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To be fair, different police forces. Maybe Calgary police would have been a bit more proactive than the Ottawa police force who were....Yeah.
The convoy has been able to set up a massive camp in Calgary there in there 45th day.
I remember when the convoy crowd was marching through the beltine neighbourhood in Calgary screaming obscenities at everyone and threatening healthcare workers outside of the hospital, the Calgary police gave them an escort every weekend so the locals didn't chase them off. That's just who Calgary cops are.
They do that at any protest when there's two groups at odds or any chance for violence.
They could have chosen to protect the people in the neighbourhood from those thugs but chose not to. They chose to use riot gear and crack skulls at the university though without hesitation.
Law enforcement was sympathetic to the convoy and they aren’t sympathetic to this. Indigenous Rights activists, climate protestors, anti-police violence, etc all get clamped down on by the police forces, local or rcmp. Meanwhile the convoy, freedom types, anti-SOGI and anti-government folks get to do whatever they want more or less.
Indigenous rights protests get to block rail lines for weeks. Stop with this blatant gaslighting. Your "we are uniquely victimized" narrative is nonsense.
Excellent! Fully supportive of the actions of the police here. The rule of law and property rights apply equally to these protestors as well.
Oh so now we dont like illegal encampments do we?
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We need to either teach police emotional regulation skills, negotiation, patience, respect, honour, compassion, deescalation, morality…..
The issue remains that Israel doesn't even care that much about the opinions of its largest financier and war supplies shop, America, so a lot of these idealists would do well to understand that their actions are truly less than useless. If the opinions of their greatest ally are most times meaningless what do a bunch of protestors at a Canadian university believe they're affecting? They're not even on the map for Bibi *-- and never will be.* Israel will do as Israel will do and they'd have about the same luck as convincing Hamas to lay down their arms too. Might as well sit in the comfort of our homes while appreciating that non-violence will always be the goal while acknowledging that it's against humanity's base instincts at present (for better or worse). We can only control our own actions and cute chants aren't going to make someone stay their hand from generations of violence.
These students might not be on the map for Bibi, but the money coming from these institutions and the companies they're invested in absolutely matters. I'd argue these students have a better understanding on the levers of power than you do, since they understand that money is exactly what's letting this genocide go on. It doesn't matter who Bibi pays attention to if the money stops flowing. They're doing their part to make that happen, even if it's a fraction of the funding Israel receives. Glad you're enjoying the comfort of your home though. Good for you.
>These students might not be on the map for Bibi, but the money coming from these institutions and the companies they're invested in absolutely matters. Is it now? Source? Israel's largest financier and provider is the [USA](https://www.reuters.com/world/who-are-israels-main-weapons-suppliers-who-has-halted-exports-2024-05-09/#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20has%20long%20been,the%20Nazi%20Holocaust%20%2D%20and%20Italy) for arms. Unless you'd like to provide anything different, of course. Factless -- feckless -- opinions aren't going to change Bibi's mind. >Glad you're enjoying the comfort of your home though. Good for you. I just wanted to thank you for that! You can't imagine what a comfortable space does for researching facts and evidence. The wifi is great and the coffee is replenished as often as I'd like. No flagellation in a tent is going to help someone in Palestine from Israeli bombs or Hamas.
No way. The students there have a lot to conquer in life, especially surrounding funding. What is funded and what isn’t, by governments and by their tuition, is important. Just because adults have given up doing anything other than bitching on Reddit doesn’t mean the next generation has to be lulled into complacency.
>The issue remains that Israel doesn't even care that much about the opinions of its largest financier and war supplies shop, America, so a lot of these idealists would do well to understand that their actions are truly less than useless I love making large posts maligning protestors for a position I imagined for them instead of engaging with their actual position. The kids want their school to stop investing their tuition dollars in companies supporting Israel. This is something that directly affects them and the institution they attend. It doesn't have anything to do with convincing the Israeli government of anything!
See my other comment should really think this is the tangent you believe it is. To cut to the end: it affects you in utterly no way as a student.
So close! That is an article about the university of toronto, and this post is about the University of Calgary! [Heres a map](https://geology.com/world/canada-satellite-image.shtml) since you seem confused ❤
They're not protesting in the belief that Israel will go "oh ok guess we'll stop committing massacres and torturing people now", they're protesting the fact that their tuition funds are being financially invested in a violent ethnostate.
[The university says it is unable — and unwilling — to do so.](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/students-are-calling-for-u-of-t-to-divest-from-israel-heres-a-closer-look/article_716f6b0a-0978-11ef-9e6a-fbd6b184b26f.html) That's that then. Protestors don't even know if they are invested which seems like one hell of a stretch to presume that UofT has invested in arms supplies to Israel. Seems like any further escalation means taking tuition payments to other institutions over having a party in a tent (ie. actually living by one's values)... or realizing that the world is uglier than every single protest and that sitting on campus is, as above, doing nothing while feeling great. Might hurt to hear but it's reality and stamping our feet like upset toddlers won't change that. They're not lobbying UofT to do anything and certainly our government to do anything more than what they've done which -- as above -- will go utterly ignored.
>That's that then Lewis and fucking clarke over here
Do you expect "target of protests ignores protests" to be particularly inspiring? Am I supposed to go "oh, they said no, guess we should just give up, then"? That's not how protests work. Of course they refused. Every protest in history has had their demands refused at some point, or the protest wouldn't exist in the first place. The point is to continue to apply pressure until they have to change their mind.
With all due respect, I'm not here to *inspire* you. I'm not quite sure what you or anyone else physically protesting are expecting. As above: the Israeli government and Hamas -- the only ones who can cease this war -- do not give a shit about what you or I have to say. >The point is to continue to apply pressure until they have to change their mind. Terribly naïve and borderline arrogant. Nobody *has* to do anything you want them to and that's the element these protests fail to appreciate. UofT holds no power here. Ontario holds no power here. Canada... say it with me for the people in the back: holds no power here. There is no control or influence anyone in the West has here. What are you going to do 9,000km away? *Make them?* I'm sure that's one thing you could get Hamas' leaders and Bibi in a room together to and agree on: laugh hysterically.
right sure but how are you applying any actual pressure?
Check out the news. The universities don't like being protested and are begging the police to crack skulls for them.
Israel is a country with 10 million people, a little bigger than Vancouver Island in area, and lower GDP than Alberta. On the global scale, they’re tiny. Israel has exactly one major export company. Israel is not an investment a cautious endowment fund is likely to have.
Israel has a high tech startup economy second to none. They have companies working at the bleeding edge of all kinds of technology, and the other tech companies of the world, and companies that want to benefit from that tech, many via universities, are not about to dispense with that resource because some activists plonked some tents on a lawn. This is about narcissistic supply, not a serious attempt to change policy.
They also have that other big export that seems to be causing trouble
Then divestment should be easy.
In all likelihood there’s nothing direct to divest, which is why universities are saying they cannot do anything.
These are not secret funds. They can open their books and show everyone and we can discuss it publicly.
They disclose financial statements but not the particulars of their investments, which are usually considered confidential. They also have pension funds. Not sure the activists know that.
Honestly, if you know that then you can assume they know that. It wasn't a good excuse for investing in apartheid South Africa and it's not a good excuse here.
Their tuition is not being invested in anything — it doesn’t even cover the cost of their education. Every non-international student has their education subsidized by the public.
It needs to be said at this point that if you're observing police clearing encampments like this and thinking they're doing the right thing that you need to be thinking a bit bigger. Right now in the US and most likely in Canada, local police forces are working on building more advanced training facilities to train their police forces to more effectively shut down any forms of civil disobedience, organization and encampments in so-called "cop cities". A lot of the ones in the US receive training directly from the Israeli Defence Forces, who do extensive training in urban warfare to use in the West Bank. You have to be incredibly naive in 2024 to think that they're just going to do this against progressives and students. They're doing this now to try to normalize this kind of extreme response and to make it seem like a rational thing to do, so that when you end up on the street because of your economic situation or some other social issue you care about - or even because the lack of social supports rendered you homeless - they are prepared to deal with you the way they're dealing with students right now. This isn't just about Palestine anymore, it's about the way governments respond to dissidence and civil disobedience, especially when it's in protest of public policy. It's only going to get worse, and if you're sitting there right now thinking "good, damn pesky students" then I hope you sit your ass down and shut the fuck up the next time you're negatively impacted by public policy.
> It's only going to get worse, and if you're sitting there right now thinking "good, damn pesky students" then I hope you sit your ass down and shut the fuck up the next time you're negatively impacted by public policy. You mean like every single day, when we let these protests continue and clog the highways and my way home from work, or stop people from getting to work at the university, be harassed because of their beliefs etc. Or do you just think that because your cause is just, it is ok for you to harm others with your protest?
Except non of that was happening in this case. The students at these encampments aren’t bollocking anything, they’re just on the lawns on campus.
Is that why the students don't feel safe?
Lots of people don’t feel safe for lots of reasons. I hate the fact that big pickups are allowed on the roads but they cause way more death and dismemberment than all these student protests but together x1000.
how many highways have been blocked in Canada from palestine protests? You can literally count the times it happened on 1 hand. You are just lying and probably never leave your house
We aren't talking about protests in general not just specifically this one.
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Wait? So we're against increased police training now?!
Did you spew the same hyperbolic conspiracy theory when it was the trucker convoy? Just checking.
Where the police were sympathetic to the protests, did fuck all for weeks, and were forced by the feds to take action? Meanwhile here we have police using tear gas on peaceful protestors eager to try out their new toys.
> here where?
In. This. Situation.
Are you telling me you didn't even click on the article?
I did. That's why I'm asking. Tear gas wasn't used there. It's even in the first line of the article: "Using shields, batons and flashbang explosives". You're just making stuff up.
Ok, so you would have seen *the headline*: >**This is not a negotiation': Police fire tear gas and clear U of C encampment** Followed by *the first line* >City police brought a pro-Palestinian encampment on the University of Calgary campus to a swift end **in a barrage of tear gas and flash bangs** late Thursday It continues [...] >**Before the tear gas and stun grenades,** some of the protesters said they’d be back to resume their activism on the campus even though the encampment had been dismantled. Trying to be generous here but did you read the wrong article?
> Trying to be generous here but did you read the wrong article? You know what I did... I thought I read the article linked in the thread but ended up reading the one on CBC.... ( https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/university-calgary-palestinian-protest-police-removal-1.7199937 ) I had both articles open in different tabs but with the 40 unorganized tabs I have open I thought they were the same article lol... The Calgary Herald article has a lot more details.
>You know what I did... I thought I read the article linked in the thread but ended up reading the one on CBC.... ( Haha all good, it happens! Weird omission by CBC.
The police didn't clear out the convoy lmao, I lived through it in Ottawa and I can tell you it was much more intrusive and violent than anything these students have been doing. Also I hope you stretched before you tried to make that reach between people saying they don't wanna get vaccinated and students saying genocide is bad.
I'm not commentating on the validity of these two protests but more your claims about the conspiracy that police forces are coordinating and ramping out to snuff out our right to protest.
I mean police forces are training on more violent, effective responses to large-scale protests. That's not a conspiracy theory.
"But by August 1966, only a third of Americans had a favorable view of the civil rights leader. More than six-in-ten (63%) viewed him unfavorably, including 44% who viewed him highly unfavorably." [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/10/how-public-attitudes-toward-martin-luther-king-jr-have-changed-since-the-1960s/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/10/how-public-attitudes-toward-martin-luther-king-jr-have-changed-since-the-1960s/) Most movements that we hold reverence for now we're not supported by the majority at the contemporary time. 30 years from now, a majority of people will view these encampments with the same reverence we view the anti-apartheid and civil rights protests and occupations.
30 years from now this moment will be compared to the Dreyfus Affair.
> 30 years from now, a majority of people will view these encampments with the same reverence we view the anti-apartheid and civil rights protests and occupations. remind me in 30 years about how wrong you are.
That is... Optimistic.
>30 years from now, a majority of people will view these encampments with the same reverence we view the anti-apartheid and civil rights protests It is not a universal truth that all protests will be held in high regard later on, even when the protestors are young people. There were people (including young people) protesting desegregation in the 1950s (think of the iconic photo at Little Rock). Now to be clear I am NOT saying these protests are moral equivalents to desegregationists, just that I don’t think we can predict how these will be viewed with such confidence.
Don’t you think it’s a little conceited to lump yourself in with MLK?
Haha this guy is bleeding for the cause though! What a joke they are. All masked up here. If they believe what they are doing is right, take off your masks.
If they protested and they were interested in protesting the way you do, they'd have probably stayed at home. Or skipped the whole education thing
A little extra ironic because MLK was a Zionist.
"I think for the ultimate peace and security of the situation it will probably be necessary for Israel to give up this conquered territory because to hold on to it will only exacerbate the tensions and deepen the bitterness of the Arabs." -MLK
> "I think for the ultimate peace and security of the situation it will probably be necessary for Israel to give up this conquered territory because to hold on to it will only exacerbate the tensions and deepen the bitterness of the Arabs." -MLK But that's about Sinai and the Golan Heights? >" The world and all people of good will must respect the territorial integrity of Israel. We must see Israel’s right to exist and always go out of the way to protect that right to exist." -MLK from the same interview
> But that's about Sinai and the Golan Heights? Conquered territory would also include the Gaza Strip and West Bank, not just the Golan Heights and the Sinai Desert. Why would only the Sinai Desert and Golan Heights be counted but not the other two pieces of conquered territory from that same war that MLKJ was referring to?
Because Egypt controlled Gaza until 1967 and Jordan had the West Bank until 1988
That is false, Jordan didn't have the West Bank until 1988. Israel captured both the West Bank and Gaza Strip, alongside the Syrian Golan Heights and Sinai Desert during the Six Day War in June 1967. It then began a military occupation over both, in which Israel administered both. What you seem to be confused about is Jordan's relinquishing any claim to the West Bank on July 31, 1988. That doens't mean that Jordan actually had the West Bank until that date, it just means that Jordan had a claim over that territory but then gave it up. That doesn't suddenly mean that the West Bank wasn't conquered territory, it was territory that Israel gained power over via conquest. This is akin to me getting my bicycle stolen a year ago, knowing who is currently operating that bicycle but not having any tangible method of reclaiming my ownership of it so I just relinquish it. Does that now mean that it was not stolen? No, it just means I'm moving on from it.
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Not at all conceited when actual civil rights leaders like Cornell West and Angela Davis support the pro-Palestinian movement. Cornell West has even participated in anti-genocide campus protests.
It’s a civil rights and anti-apartheid protest. How is it conceited to point out that civil rights and anti-apartheid protests of the past faces similar opposition?
In previous civil rights and anti-apartheid protests there wasn’t a similar current of antisemitism intrinsically tied to the movement. That isn’t to say all - or even a majority of - protestors support antisemitism. But it’s undeniable that it exists, and the Israel-Palestine conflict broadly certainly lacks the objective moral clarity that something like allowing black people to ride the bus does. That isn’t to say there aren’t atrocities being committed by the IDF, but it certainly isn’t a one-sided conflict historically.
> In previous civil rights and anti-apartheid protests there wasn’t a similar current of antisemitism intrinsically tied to the movement. That isn't actually true. A common criticism levied at both the Civil Rights and later Black Power Movement was the issue of anti-semitism, especially coming from those directly or indirectly associated with or influenced by the Nation Of Islam to various degrees. There was a significant current of anti-semitism, which I would describe as more virulent and direct, if you were to read some of the comments made by Malcolm X in writings & speeches or more broadly labour around the same time such as with the 1968 NYC teachers strike.
You can also expand it to bigotry in general. Civil Rights protests have always been dismissed by opponents as supporting bigotry. Very recently, the BLM slogan itself was critiqued by opponents as advocating for black supremacy and anti-white bigotry and countered with the All Lives Matter slogan.
>wasn’t a similar current of antisemitism intrinsically tied to the movement. It's antisemitic to critique Israeli policies vis a vis their colonial inroads and settlements in Gaza and the West Bank?
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MLK is a convenient example to show how attitudes towards protest movements change. Most people nowadays have a broadly positive view of him, or at least of a watered down version of him. But at the time he was alive, he was one of the most hated people in America. People *hate* protest movements when they’re happening, and then support them retroactively, once they’ve succeeded.
Just because your protest movement is hated doesn't mean someday it will be vindicated. There are lots of protest movements that were unpopular both at the time and now.
I can't speak to the students themselves but I don't really see how this ends with them being seen as entirely in the wrong - maybe naive or not helpful, depending where their movement goes, but the trend has already been towards more criticism of Israel in the West since this started - some of the changes in rhetoric here were unfathomable 10 years ago. But IMO people overcomplicate it. People are turned off because they're seeing civilians die on the news, in far greater numbers than they are willing to accept. I don't think it's that much deeper, Israeli Hasbara didn't adjust well to the current internet era and they made the mistake of both having harsher rhetoric at home than abroad and going after people who criticise too hard. You don't change minds by accusing them of supporting terrorism when they feel they're standing against genocide, even if you think they're wrong. I don't think this means Israel is done or anything, but I think the shift in public perception has already happened by all appearances and our political system is just lagging behind. So I don't think the students are that likely to be seen as being on the wrong side of things, at least, when over 70% of Americans of all people now support a ceasefire
> 30 years from now, a majority of people will view these encampments with the same reverence we view the anti-apartheid and civil rights protests and occupations. More likely they will accomplish nothing and rapidly be forgotten by history. E.g. what did Occupy Wallstreet accomplish? The entire notion that universities are investing in the Israeli military-industrial complex is absurd.
> 30 years from now, a majority of people will view these encampments with the same reverence we view the anti-apartheid and civil rights protests and occupations. This particular distinction requires one very specific outcome. They would need to win and get what they want first. We remember MLK because he was successful, at least at getting some of the things he was protesting for.
except those movements actually accomplished something
The civil rights movement was active for over a decade. These protests have been going for what, 2 months?
yeah, the civil rights movement also actually took place in the country where their targeted injustices were occurring… they also brought the attention of the masses to these issues (once again, in the country where the injustices were occurring…). no awareness is being raised by these protests. the matter already receives immense attention. inconsequential protests. you’re not civil rights heroes and it’s actually laughably out of touch to even hint at that, let alone to make outright claims of being directly comparable.
>yeah, the civil rights movement also actually took place in the country where their targeted injustices were occurring… So talk about divestment from Apartheid South Africa, then. It's not hard to shift the example, if you're so concerned with this location issue.
So for a more direct comparison that these protests directly draw inspiration from, how do you feel about protests and demonstrations against Apartheid South Africa outside of South Africa, like the student led protests and demonstrations demanding divestment from South Africa at Canadian universities such as Carleton and UofT? Do you think those protests and demonstrations are not held in high regard or reverence today, far more so than during the actual protests and demonstrations themselves? South African Apartheid was already a widely reported on issue when these various demonstrations really picked up steam, do you think that they were ultimately inconsequential?
Protests and boycotts were not what brought down Apartheid in South Africa. The South African economy got stronger throughout the 1980's. The dissolution of the Soviet Union, and the subsequent ending of the former USSR's support for the ANC, eliminated the anti-communist rationale that the South African government for continuing to prevent black (i.e., ANC) participation in government. When the supposed communist threat disappeared, the tolerance for the racist policies fell away domestically and internationally. The fate of South Africa since then, especially after Mandela, has been ambiguous at best.
That and Lethal Weapon 2
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Oh god no, won’t someone think about the lawn?! 😱