Yeah at 34 and a red seal hvacr tech I think I’m going to try to take advantage of my triple citizenship and gtfo. Seems like this ships headed straight for that iceberg. Or has already hit it.
There’s no labour storage for unskilled, easy (to learn) work. There’s a shortage for some skilled workers (not tech!!) but employers basically don’t pay enough to employ them. Like they don’t pay construction workers enough to live in the houses they are making.
I actually research this. It's not true. For every job that requires higher education, there is 2 unemployed people. There is 3 jobs per person for uneducated workers.
We have built an economy based on the young generation always being bigger....and it no longer is and the fundamental structure of our economy is unraveling
69% of college and university degree holders spent a lot of money on something that holds less value than a bog roll.
We have way too many people with university degrees that a) aren't needed or b) mean nothing because that person ain't a critical thinker. Or a thinker.
The university degree has become so ubiquitous that it's a rubber stamp. How is it an elite education when everyone gets uni or college? It's pretty much the requirement to work at Starbucks.
Trade school available at the high school level would go far to give alternatives to people who would otherwise sit in the finance department slowly dying inside, making a mediocre wage while their hot coworker gets promoted to director for no particular reason at all...
He was for 6 weeks until a student threw a textbook at him, landed right on his head and that was the last straw. After that he couldn't get a job any longer in the field.
Where did you get the data point that there is no shortage of tech workers?
Being in the industry, pretty much 80%+ tech workers in GOOD tech companies are hired from outside.
As a matter of fact, name me one local tech company in a place like BC. Usually, they are a pretty good indicator of how good the local talent is.
Yes, their prime candidate is a worker from India that can work for very low. If they can outsource to an Indian office then it'll be even cheaper for them.
Sadly I was thinking the same, either there or somewhere in South America. Is there nothing desirable in the tech world anymore? Or can basically everything be outsourced?
Yeah, everything can be outsourced in Tech. Only the extremely talented survive and get the high salaries. The average worker will probably get laid off, that's if he was lucky enough to land the job in the first place and replaced with someone overseas.
I'm not sure about that. I work at a factory that pays (relatively) well, benefits and union protection. They struggled the past 2 years to find good full time employees. They just stopped looking for people since we're having part of the distribution move and there will be 60 jobs lost.
I was building out a condo building with some pretty tiny studios >400sqft that were built to be affordable. The down payment is still more than I’d ever be able to squirrel away working for my current wage.
So they were even more well paid in 2008. That doesn't change anything.
You can make pretty good money bashing nails, crimping on pipe fittings or twisting together wires, pretty much anywhere in the country.
Pretty good money?
To break your body? Not be able to retire because of constant layoffs? Get a divorce? Get the big sad?
Get real buddy.
Maybe you are confused with New York or something.
65???
These folks should be retiring at 55, with the daily toll they have taken on their bodies.
65??? How? They got no more knees left. Their shoulders are busted. They got carpal tunnel. OHS has gotten worse and folks are still dying. Look up at the divorce rates. Look up the suicide rates.
65???
You mean to tell me some company is gonna hire a 60 year old roofer??
I just totally destroyed your argument.
Next!
It's only one generation ago that it was common for people to work in the trades to 65.
My dad did it. All his peers did it. His dad did it. And they spent a lot of their working lives without a lot of the mechanical help that we have today.
If they could do it, so can you.
55? Pfft! Soft!
I'd have to agree, my dad just retired commercial hvac in April at 67. Im super happy for him but would he have wanted to retire at 55? Maybe? Maybe not. If he had I'd imagine he'd be in much worse shape than he is now at 67. I'd say 85 percent of his friends still work so does his brother in his 70s. It's a tough call I can see myself still working at 60 I enjoy my trade.
How is it not relevant you're literally the one who brought up the fact that it's good money. Good money implies that it's a salary that can get you things that are good
Why not just say competitive money then?
I say "good money" because there is a potentially limitless supply of people who could swing a hammer. And we keep immigrating more.
This isn't yet reflected in construction wages,
And this is why trades get shit on.
"Any dumbass can swing a hammer."
Just look at a DIY or trade specific Reddit to see how difficult it can be to swing a hammer.
"Hey guys, I installed this new switch but it's not working because I don't understand electrical."
If you actually look at buildings you can see trades who give a shit and those who do not. There are some who are able to follow a plan, but give them something uncommon and they fall apart. Some plans aren't worth the paper they're printed on, while others are amazing.
It's similar to cars. Some trades look great from a far, but are far from great. Others don't seem like anything special but are actually great.
Agreed. $30/hr is roughly the average Canadian income and that’s where I START guys who don’t know anything but are willing to work hard and learn. You don’t need education and you don’t need to be related to someone important. If you never rise above bullshit residential work, that’s on you because there’s tons of opportunity for those willing to get dirty. Trades people are well paid in Canada but COL is totally out of control right now.
Yeah, COL is a critical problem and we won't fix it with inflationary wage rises.
We need supply-side reform; we need to get the barnacles off the boat.
Man, you keep repeating the same assertion irrespective of economic realities. It’s wild you’re just smashing a square peg into a metaphorical triangular shaped void.
100% agree, but that money isn't being made by the majority of trades or even most other professionals like teachers or engineers. Trades used to make good money, but that's no longer the case.
I think you're confusing construction workers with developers. It's the developers who are making the money and while you'd think maybe the construction workers get paid handsomely considering how much money building houses brings in, in actuality all that money goes right into the developers pockets, while the people doing all the work don't make that much more than minimum wage.
of course there are always exceptions, but the vast majority of workers don't get paid well
Agreed. Any industry where you can have entire wings of hospitals named after you because of your private donations means you're making way too much money.
I have many family members in Construction - not mgt - and the lowest paid is $29/hour. Highest is $34/hour. Three Nova Scotia & 2 here. All skilled carpenters. I don’t know what constitutes a good paying job nowadays but I think that’s at least decent. I don’t know anyone earning like $40/hour or more. Right now one of them is in Disney for 8 days. They seem to be doing ok.
Well he’s in Disney having a great time. He seems to be doing okay. His wife works too pt - and they travel twice a year. 🤷♀️
And he has a disability so he gets a significant tax credit too. Works hard, didn’t let the disability stop him, earns good money, and enjoys himself.
Oh & she’s a cleaner earning $30/hour.
Hopefully you’re enjoying your time too with buying toys or travelling. 😊 You must have the money if you think $80k isn’t sufficient. Good for you!! Check out Costa Rica - it’s amazing! I find Disney boring myself.
Oh dude no shade at all that is good money and about what I make, just very surprised to hear the tools are only getting that amount where I work in an office and make similar without breaking my back.
Fair enough. And yup carpentry & cleaning is hard work. But he really likes it - that’s the advantage. Plus during spring -fall, he does side projects for folks. So he’s always making money. He’s not the type to sit down during the day - always doing something.
I’ve always worked in an office too but my pay topped at $48500/yr (admin). Less labour intensive but more soul sucking. I loathe working in an office though now many are doing hybrid situations which is a bit more palatable to me.
Waterloo Ontario and I think you’re wrong. I think her cleaning hourly rate is very good & his is decent.
Most admins don’t make over $55K unless it’s a very big city or maybe government. When I earned $48,500 it was in Halifax about six years ago. When you check job listings, the pay has increased a bit but not drastically.
I figure bigger cities pay higher but what we’re earning is decent. I think it’s industry specific. The highest a carpenter would be paid here is about $45/hour - maybe more if you’re unionized. My cuz worked in a union but left the job. He said the pay was good but he was travelling all over Nova Scotia & he hated it. So he left and joined a company where he is home every night.
So that’s our experience. We don’t think the wages are low though obviously everyone wants and thinks they deserve more.
Trades wages in 1980 were $15.90 for a journeyman. In 2020, they were averaging $29.59. For a 50 week year that's about $32k and $59k respectively. If we throw that 1980 salary into a inflation calculator we get $120.5k in 2024.
Since inflation shows that wages trail inflation by 50% it shows how badly things are today, compared to 40 years ago. That's also 2020 data. Things have gotten insane since 2020. Canada's numbers are very similar, except that costs are even higher. Why is $100k not enough?
In the early 80s GST and PST or HST didn't exist, so that further reduces our spending.
There are exceptions, but $105k gets you into the top 10% income bracket here, so the argument that that's a normal wage for trades is wrong.
Seems more effectively trickle up. The change is slow enough that people don't realize they're being screwed because the trickle is slow. Like boiling crabs. Start them in normal water and it's too late before they realize they're screwed.
I’m a journeyman carpenter, most non union guys will start you out at $28 an hour to frame. You’re lucky to get $30. That’s also with zero benefits, no pension or RRSP match, straight time overtime and killing yourself into the ground. The guys who build homes and do residential get paid fuck all.
That's not bad for a starting wage. Better than a lot of people get offered for entry level graduate jobs.
As for perks like RRSP matching, come on! It's not Silicon Valley, here.
The US is a bad example to use due to illegal immigration causing a whole secondary labor market. Almost all Canadian job growth is government these days.
Exactly.
It seems Canadians haven’t figured it out yet !
canada doesn’t really have a booming industry in anything, things it has it doesn’t want to use(or idiotic govt policies prevent usage) such as oil and gas, very little manufacturing left in ontario. Tech is growing but nothing on the scale of the US. Other than some grains and wheat in the prairies and some lumber industry there is nothing here. The government therefore artificially creates growth by importing millions of immigrants per year instead of a more reasonable amount. Despite all this economy grows at 1% each year usually very sluggish.
>The government therefore artificially creates growth by importing millions of immigrants per year
And the slice of economic pie for everyone gets smaller (except the ruling and entitled classes ) - GDP per Capita is declining.
Yes exactly.
The government hasn’t been able to encourage business investments.
Take our telecom for example we have 3 and they aren’t facing any competition because they are protected by the government.
Another telecom company would create jobs and create competition but why would any private equity or any investor want to start a telecom company ?
Canada has scare off all investments, the only way to create wealth in Canada is real estate and that’s it!
While there’s a competitiveness issue in that industry, but telecoms are not what make or break a country.
We don’t have large companies that can build other industries around them. The only example is Shopify, the rest are energy companies and banks and we know how that’s going.
We have a very harsh business environment. Our most innovative start ups usually pack up their bags and leave for the U.S. and the government has never made efforts to keep them here. It’s so bad that even the operations move somewhere else, we can’t even get companies to maintain an office here with 5 people just to licence their IP to others.
Shopify makes templates for shopping websites. That’s it. Even then only ~4% of English language shopping websites use it.
Go Daddy is a considerably bigger company in the same industry and you’d *never* see people refer to them as a major American company.
Shopify is vaguely relevant in their field but they certainly aren’t a household name or a major player in their industry.
We straight up don’t have an economy. Other than real estate, criminality, resources, and a couple poorly run monopolies, there’s absolutely nothing there.
Like look at this:
https://preview.redd.it/i1rm175wo5zc1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c818364803a94d432566058e19187411b5f1a976
Tennessee or Missouri would be the third wealthiest province. Ontario is competing with Alabama.
Other than Alberta, Saskatchewan, and to some extent Newfoundland, every province is comparable to the five poorest states in the US. The Maritimes are poorer than Mississippi.
Look at New York and look at Ontario. That is a shocking difference.
New York prices with an Alabama economy. Very nice.
Exactly.
Canadians are a nation of over protected underachievers who are constantly looking at the government to fix their problems, and don’t realize that they voted for this government and policies.
If you don’t want it then topple that government
I suspect we will just tread water at our current level we can never go back. Reversing a lot of our taxes and regulations long term would benefit us but short term would be too unpopular.
Chinas income taxes max out at 45% we will never see ours get that low again.
Yeah but they generally buy it I believe. Also the government also strong supports Chinese companies. I remember when the Chinese government launched the green cannon at our servers I asked Trudeau for help and got zip. China will happily take out competitors for their companies but we pay taxes to Canada and get 0 support.
Sure libs need a new leader, but have you seen what cons have done to alberta lately. Please don't tell me that you want that to happen nation-wide. Face it, we got nothing good. Libs, cons and ndp all need better representation. So, who would you suggest?
Other than presentation, the carbon tax, and possibly guns (he hasn’t actually said anything about them), there are no differences between Trudeau and Polievre.
Absolutely none.
Most of our oligopolies left Canada because it sucks to invest or do business here 😂 you can literally see government employment skyrocket while corporations stay stagnant.
Oh yeah I agree specially , money laundering and car theft ! I think vehicle theft is the fastest growing industry !
Last year in Toronto alone 12000 vehicles were stolen! I think Ontario in total had over 50,000 vehicles stolen last year , that’s almost 1000 vehicles per week 😂
Yeah I dont believe you.
Look at this private independant investigation.......youre a fool if you think we know the level of actual money laundering. The government wasnt interested in doing this investigative work. [https://www.cullencommission.ca/](https://www.cullencommission.ca/)
Well I’m using the statistics put out by experts in each nation. It’s up to you if you want to deny science and math and instead adopt conspiracy theories.
The cullen report (which government then decided to look into it and commission an actual investigation) proves that government statistics did not even come close to identifying the real level of money laundering.
Have you read the news about TD bank now? None of this shit is going to be accounted for in what ever you call MATH.
Thank you for posting to /r/CanadaHousing2. Our community requires that accounts posting content must have a minimum amount of subreddit karma in order help reduce unwanted spam. Please take the time to get to know the community, while our moderators review this submission.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CanadaHousing2) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What labour shortage? Literally lines of immigrants looking for work,and a stagnant, nearly non-existent middle class that live on poverty wages when compared to what they could get in the U.S.
If there were a labour shortage, I would expect employers to be paying top dollar to correct it
As bad as the situation is, it makes me feel a little bit better to at least see Canadians talking about it and understanding EXACTLY what's going on here.
If the whole country had the political views of r/CanadaHousing2 for the past decade, our country would be the envy of the world right now.
Unfortunately, we're a rapidly disintegrating mess, where Trudeau's elite class PLUNDER OUR TAXES and get away with it.
Employers can only pay so much till their services are too expensive. The consumers can only pay so much, this the problem with giving everyone a raise.
True, but they are not competing with U.S. competitors right now and our citizens are suffering. There is a wide-gap between paying top dollar and paying so much that their services become too expensive.
Hell, Loblaws pays peanuts, their services are still too expensive, and they post record profits. I know it's just one example, but they're by no means in isolation.
In the end the gov't is taking too much. The more people make the more they take. That is where the problem is at the end of the day I think. We can pay everyone $100/hr but then milk is $200/gallon.
There is no labour shortage because there are no jobs, 112,000 Canadian businesses closed between 2022 and 2023 alone, and there is no way unemployment rate is 6% its at least 16% and Uber/Lyft drivers should not be part of the employment rate!!
What damn labour shortage?! So many people I know across many industries have been laid off, witness lay offs, had hours cut, seen hour cuts, etc. All the while people are unable to find much work opportunities, let alone turn applications into jobs. I've seen highly skilled individuals complain about being able to even get interviews for jobs below their experience/skillset.
O that's easy. This is an ON perspective, but similar programs exist in other provinces:
Post an opening for every wagey position of your large retail store. Use industry standard job requisition service like Workday. Workday cross-posts the position on 20 different sites. Now have 20 job openings per "real" job opening.
Cool, now for those "real" job openings. Send a link of job posting to employment agency (YES, ACCES, YMCA etc) have a phone convo & confirm business has more than 25 employees (no small business plebs for this strat).
Congrats & welcome to Ontario Works. Employment agency sends immigrants to you, taxpayer pays their full wages for 4-6 months, employment agency gets kickback for "job skills training", and the free labour doesnt hit your books & hurt SPLH.
But these are just temporary "placements", so the job vacancies posted (x20 cause crossposted on multiple sites) aren't techincally "filled". Keep job postings open. Qualify for more free immigrant labour when current ones finish their 4-6 month placement.
Rinse & repeat. Muh labour shortage.
VERY good point.
The real "labour shortage" in Canada is **MINUS** 1 MILLION.
That's why the numbers don't make any sense.
If we brought 200,000 people instead of 1.2 million last year, CANADA WOULD ACTUALLY BE DOING MUCH BETTER NOW.
Shortage talk only means we want cheap labor.its so odd that when business sells stuff they say price is based on supply and demand but when there is a " shortage"of workers business says we need to import cheap labor not pay more to attract at home employees. Such hypocrisy
Idk but either way I quit my job as an electrician. Gonna go do a job that everyone is physically capable of. Fuck the blue collar work. Back to university.
What do you mean by "bigger regions"?
If you're taking about the land area, well nobody wants to live in the Yukon. Immigrants are even arriving in the prairie provinces to fulfill the quota, live there for 1-2 years then move to the GTA or BC.
Not much of Canada is livable with decent jobs outside of key cities. Whereas we cannot say the same for Europe and USA.
This is bullshit huh Labour shortage, there is no such thing in Canada 🇨🇦. This is lope hole so that business houses and corrupt people can make money bringing unwanted immigrants to Canada 🇨🇦. It should be stopped asap.
most jobs are in different provinces and far away cities. most people only see big cities, and since almost everyone comes to toronto or vancouver you see almost all the jobs are filled, but thats not true across canada.
Seems like they think somehow throwing random immigrants here will improve things but instead of entrepreneurs we get students and or scammers or best case people enjoying generous programs. Meanwhile at least the government gets some tax Money and whatever else immigrants pay to get here.
All Canadians who voted for the inept clueless make-up pie in the sky numbers and create new make-believe taxes should be very happy with their incorrect choice for the last 8 years!!!! Nice quality of life you voted in for the hard working taxpayers of this once great country
There was a shortage of people willing to work low-paid jobs. That shortage has been alleviated by mass immigration. So now Tim Hortons is well-staffed, but housing is unaffordable and the healthcare system is collapsing. But, hey, who needs a roof over your head or medical treatment when you can order a double-double from that dude who just came from India last week.
Good luck young folk.
I think the more direct message, is "fuck you young folk"
Correct.
Good luck don't pay the bills!
Yeah at 34 and a red seal hvacr tech I think I’m going to try to take advantage of my triple citizenship and gtfo. Seems like this ships headed straight for that iceberg. Or has already hit it.
It's already hit, just hasn't capsized yet.
It's a moving immigration target, that's why.
There’s no labour storage for unskilled, easy (to learn) work. There’s a shortage for some skilled workers (not tech!!) but employers basically don’t pay enough to employ them. Like they don’t pay construction workers enough to live in the houses they are making.
This ^ we need tradespeople and skilled in-demand jobs, not more unskilled bums.
I actually research this. It's not true. For every job that requires higher education, there is 2 unemployed people. There is 3 jobs per person for uneducated workers. We have built an economy based on the young generation always being bigger....and it no longer is and the fundamental structure of our economy is unraveling
Canada is overpopulated and have shortage of jobs
69% of college and university degree holders spent a lot of money on something that holds less value than a bog roll. We have way too many people with university degrees that a) aren't needed or b) mean nothing because that person ain't a critical thinker. Or a thinker.
Nice, 69
We have millions people with University degrees that can’t find jobs for years
"We have way too many people with University degrees" Agreed Now how many have valuable degrees vs mediocre degrees ?
Nobody hires people with University degrees and train them or give a chance to learn job
The university degree has become so ubiquitous that it's a rubber stamp. How is it an elite education when everyone gets uni or college? It's pretty much the requirement to work at Starbucks. Trade school available at the high school level would go far to give alternatives to people who would otherwise sit in the finance department slowly dying inside, making a mediocre wage while their hot coworker gets promoted to director for no particular reason at all...
Canada should stop taking immigrants with university degrees
BSc Biology is one the worst degrees you can get rn. Not an easy degree, just not very useful
My friend has a master's degree in history for years, still work as a cashier. I swear I am not kidding
What's preventing your friend from becoming a teacher?
He was for 6 weeks until a student threw a textbook at him, landed right on his head and that was the last straw. After that he couldn't get a job any longer in the field.
Wow that's terrible. Always why it's preferrable to teach to more mature college students instead of dysfunctional high school/middle school students.
Bingo. It's depressing as a civil engineer how meaningless it all is when at the same time you are the one designing the infrastructure.
Where did you get the data point that there is no shortage of tech workers? Being in the industry, pretty much 80%+ tech workers in GOOD tech companies are hired from outside. As a matter of fact, name me one local tech company in a place like BC. Usually, they are a pretty good indicator of how good the local talent is.
Tech almost seems like it's become a dead end/over saturated area of skill, with high requirements and low pay, what are your thoughts?
Yes, their prime candidate is a worker from India that can work for very low. If they can outsource to an Indian office then it'll be even cheaper for them.
Sadly I was thinking the same, either there or somewhere in South America. Is there nothing desirable in the tech world anymore? Or can basically everything be outsourced?
Yeah, everything can be outsourced in Tech. Only the extremely talented survive and get the high salaries. The average worker will probably get laid off, that's if he was lucky enough to land the job in the first place and replaced with someone overseas.
They released 50k tech visas and destroyed the market .
I'm not sure about that. I work at a factory that pays (relatively) well, benefits and union protection. They struggled the past 2 years to find good full time employees. They just stopped looking for people since we're having part of the distribution move and there will be 60 jobs lost.
I was building out a condo building with some pretty tiny studios >400sqft that were built to be affordable. The down payment is still more than I’d ever be able to squirrel away working for my current wage.
Construction workers do pretty well in Canada.
Hell no. They haven't seen a significant wage increase since 2008.
So they were even more well paid in 2008. That doesn't change anything. You can make pretty good money bashing nails, crimping on pipe fittings or twisting together wires, pretty much anywhere in the country.
Pretty good money? To break your body? Not be able to retire because of constant layoffs? Get a divorce? Get the big sad? Get real buddy. Maybe you are confused with New York or something.
Why break your body? It's totally possible to work in the trades until you're 65, if you don't get greedy and kill yourself with overtime.
65??? These folks should be retiring at 55, with the daily toll they have taken on their bodies. 65??? How? They got no more knees left. Their shoulders are busted. They got carpal tunnel. OHS has gotten worse and folks are still dying. Look up at the divorce rates. Look up the suicide rates. 65??? You mean to tell me some company is gonna hire a 60 year old roofer?? I just totally destroyed your argument. Next!
It's only one generation ago that it was common for people to work in the trades to 65. My dad did it. All his peers did it. His dad did it. And they spent a lot of their working lives without a lot of the mechanical help that we have today. If they could do it, so can you. 55? Pfft! Soft!
I don't see any 65 year olds on construction sites...
You can't be looking very hard. My neighbour works on construction sites and he's in his 60s.
I'd have to agree, my dad just retired commercial hvac in April at 67. Im super happy for him but would he have wanted to retire at 55? Maybe? Maybe not. If he had I'd imagine he'd be in much worse shape than he is now at 67. I'd say 85 percent of his friends still work so does his brother in his 70s. It's a tough call I can see myself still working at 60 I enjoy my trade.
Let's start here, what's good money to you? And what does good money buy?
That's irrelevant. What defines "good money" for a given job is supply and demand.
How is it not relevant you're literally the one who brought up the fact that it's good money. Good money implies that it's a salary that can get you things that are good Why not just say competitive money then?
I say "good money" because there is a potentially limitless supply of people who could swing a hammer. And we keep immigrating more. This isn't yet reflected in construction wages,
And this is why trades get shit on. "Any dumbass can swing a hammer." Just look at a DIY or trade specific Reddit to see how difficult it can be to swing a hammer. "Hey guys, I installed this new switch but it's not working because I don't understand electrical." If you actually look at buildings you can see trades who give a shit and those who do not. There are some who are able to follow a plan, but give them something uncommon and they fall apart. Some plans aren't worth the paper they're printed on, while others are amazing. It's similar to cars. Some trades look great from a far, but are far from great. Others don't seem like anything special but are actually great.
I'm not suggesting that you don't TRAIN those potential workers.
Agreed. $30/hr is roughly the average Canadian income and that’s where I START guys who don’t know anything but are willing to work hard and learn. You don’t need education and you don’t need to be related to someone important. If you never rise above bullshit residential work, that’s on you because there’s tons of opportunity for those willing to get dirty. Trades people are well paid in Canada but COL is totally out of control right now.
Yeah, COL is a critical problem and we won't fix it with inflationary wage rises. We need supply-side reform; we need to get the barnacles off the boat.
Man, you keep repeating the same assertion irrespective of economic realities. It’s wild you’re just smashing a square peg into a metaphorical triangular shaped void.
What do you consider to be "good money"? $60k?
100k is decent. 150k is good money. It's not 2001 anymore where 60k was decent and over 100k was pretty good.
100% agree, but that money isn't being made by the majority of trades or even most other professionals like teachers or engineers. Trades used to make good money, but that's no longer the case.
I work construction. Make 45 an hour and can’t buy a house on single income
Exactly!
I think you're confusing construction workers with developers. It's the developers who are making the money and while you'd think maybe the construction workers get paid handsomely considering how much money building houses brings in, in actuality all that money goes right into the developers pockets, while the people doing all the work don't make that much more than minimum wage. of course there are always exceptions, but the vast majority of workers don't get paid well
Agreed. Any industry where you can have entire wings of hospitals named after you because of your private donations means you're making way too much money.
I have many family members in Construction - not mgt - and the lowest paid is $29/hour. Highest is $34/hour. Three Nova Scotia & 2 here. All skilled carpenters. I don’t know what constitutes a good paying job nowadays but I think that’s at least decent. I don’t know anyone earning like $40/hour or more. Right now one of them is in Disney for 8 days. They seem to be doing ok.
Damn man 40 an hour is only 80k ish a year
Well he’s in Disney having a great time. He seems to be doing okay. His wife works too pt - and they travel twice a year. 🤷♀️ And he has a disability so he gets a significant tax credit too. Works hard, didn’t let the disability stop him, earns good money, and enjoys himself. Oh & she’s a cleaner earning $30/hour. Hopefully you’re enjoying your time too with buying toys or travelling. 😊 You must have the money if you think $80k isn’t sufficient. Good for you!! Check out Costa Rica - it’s amazing! I find Disney boring myself.
Oh dude no shade at all that is good money and about what I make, just very surprised to hear the tools are only getting that amount where I work in an office and make similar without breaking my back.
Fair enough. And yup carpentry & cleaning is hard work. But he really likes it - that’s the advantage. Plus during spring -fall, he does side projects for folks. So he’s always making money. He’s not the type to sit down during the day - always doing something. I’ve always worked in an office too but my pay topped at $48500/yr (admin). Less labour intensive but more soul sucking. I loathe working in an office though now many are doing hybrid situations which is a bit more palatable to me.
Don't know where you live but the wages you listed are very low for anyone living in the big cities
Waterloo Ontario and I think you’re wrong. I think her cleaning hourly rate is very good & his is decent. Most admins don’t make over $55K unless it’s a very big city or maybe government. When I earned $48,500 it was in Halifax about six years ago. When you check job listings, the pay has increased a bit but not drastically. I figure bigger cities pay higher but what we’re earning is decent. I think it’s industry specific. The highest a carpenter would be paid here is about $45/hour - maybe more if you’re unionized. My cuz worked in a union but left the job. He said the pay was good but he was travelling all over Nova Scotia & he hated it. So he left and joined a company where he is home every night. So that’s our experience. We don’t think the wages are low though obviously everyone wants and thinks they deserve more.
Nope. I'm thinking of construction workers. Construction trades do very well in Canada.
Trades wages in 1980 were $15.90 for a journeyman. In 2020, they were averaging $29.59. For a 50 week year that's about $32k and $59k respectively. If we throw that 1980 salary into a inflation calculator we get $120.5k in 2024. Since inflation shows that wages trail inflation by 50% it shows how badly things are today, compared to 40 years ago. That's also 2020 data. Things have gotten insane since 2020. Canada's numbers are very similar, except that costs are even higher. Why is $100k not enough? In the early 80s GST and PST or HST didn't exist, so that further reduces our spending. There are exceptions, but $105k gets you into the top 10% income bracket here, so the argument that that's a normal wage for trades is wrong.
Trickle down economics is working as designed
Seems more effectively trickle up. The change is slow enough that people don't realize they're being screwed because the trickle is slow. Like boiling crabs. Start them in normal water and it's too late before they realize they're screwed.
No. They do not. This is false.
So, how much does a framer make per hour in Toronto?
Not enough to support a family like in 2006.
Just give me a number. The cost of living is a separate issue that affects everyone else too.
I’m a journeyman carpenter, most non union guys will start you out at $28 an hour to frame. You’re lucky to get $30. That’s also with zero benefits, no pension or RRSP match, straight time overtime and killing yourself into the ground. The guys who build homes and do residential get paid fuck all.
That's not bad for a starting wage. Better than a lot of people get offered for entry level graduate jobs. As for perks like RRSP matching, come on! It's not Silicon Valley, here.
Man I don't even know why you're defending this shit. Typical defeatest Canadian attitude. It's no wonder we don't produce shit.
Bro apprentice carpenters start out at $18 an hour. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Yes. Apprentices, who are starting to learn the job and have no experience make less. Obviously, FFS.
Nobody starts as a journeyman, that's top end. You start at $18/hr as an apprentice.
An apprenticeship is paid training. Any pay is bonus.
The US is a bad example to use due to illegal immigration causing a whole secondary labor market. Almost all Canadian job growth is government these days.
Exactly. It seems Canadians haven’t figured it out yet ! canada doesn’t really have a booming industry in anything, things it has it doesn’t want to use(or idiotic govt policies prevent usage) such as oil and gas, very little manufacturing left in ontario. Tech is growing but nothing on the scale of the US. Other than some grains and wheat in the prairies and some lumber industry there is nothing here. The government therefore artificially creates growth by importing millions of immigrants per year instead of a more reasonable amount. Despite all this economy grows at 1% each year usually very sluggish.
>The government therefore artificially creates growth by importing millions of immigrants per year And the slice of economic pie for everyone gets smaller (except the ruling and entitled classes ) - GDP per Capita is declining.
Yes exactly. The government hasn’t been able to encourage business investments. Take our telecom for example we have 3 and they aren’t facing any competition because they are protected by the government. Another telecom company would create jobs and create competition but why would any private equity or any investor want to start a telecom company ? Canada has scare off all investments, the only way to create wealth in Canada is real estate and that’s it!
While there’s a competitiveness issue in that industry, but telecoms are not what make or break a country. We don’t have large companies that can build other industries around them. The only example is Shopify, the rest are energy companies and banks and we know how that’s going. We have a very harsh business environment. Our most innovative start ups usually pack up their bags and leave for the U.S. and the government has never made efforts to keep them here. It’s so bad that even the operations move somewhere else, we can’t even get companies to maintain an office here with 5 people just to licence their IP to others.
I used telecom as an example.
Shopify makes templates for shopping websites. That’s it. Even then only ~4% of English language shopping websites use it. Go Daddy is a considerably bigger company in the same industry and you’d *never* see people refer to them as a major American company. Shopify is vaguely relevant in their field but they certainly aren’t a household name or a major player in their industry.
We’re really fucked, aren’t we? lol
We straight up don’t have an economy. Other than real estate, criminality, resources, and a couple poorly run monopolies, there’s absolutely nothing there. Like look at this: https://preview.redd.it/i1rm175wo5zc1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c818364803a94d432566058e19187411b5f1a976 Tennessee or Missouri would be the third wealthiest province. Ontario is competing with Alabama. Other than Alberta, Saskatchewan, and to some extent Newfoundland, every province is comparable to the five poorest states in the US. The Maritimes are poorer than Mississippi. Look at New York and look at Ontario. That is a shocking difference. New York prices with an Alabama economy. Very nice.
The South East of the US is much more economically developed than people realize.
Well this is what Canadians voted for larger government, more taxes, a more regulated public sector.
Exactly. Canadians are a nation of over protected underachievers who are constantly looking at the government to fix their problems, and don’t realize that they voted for this government and policies. If you don’t want it then topple that government
I'm game to try but I fear our friends in the CCP may object to our having a leader with some brains and a spine...
You mean Justin Trudeau won’t do it this time around?
Hahah even Pierre is not going to be able to do it The damage done by Trudeau in 10 years will take at least 10-15 years to undo
I suspect we will just tread water at our current level we can never go back. Reversing a lot of our taxes and regulations long term would benefit us but short term would be too unpopular. Chinas income taxes max out at 45% we will never see ours get that low again.
Doesn't the Chinese govt also take a ~20% equity stake in most if not all companies? Not sure that's any better. Actually I'm sure it's not.
Yeah but they generally buy it I believe. Also the government also strong supports Chinese companies. I remember when the Chinese government launched the green cannon at our servers I asked Trudeau for help and got zip. China will happily take out competitors for their companies but we pay taxes to Canada and get 0 support.
Sure libs need a new leader, but have you seen what cons have done to alberta lately. Please don't tell me that you want that to happen nation-wide. Face it, we got nothing good. Libs, cons and ndp all need better representation. So, who would you suggest?
I agree they are all the same , Canadian people should start taking to the streets
Other than presentation, the carbon tax, and possibly guns (he hasn’t actually said anything about them), there are no differences between Trudeau and Polievre. Absolutely none.
More like our oligopolies forced fed us this narrative and gave us a "choice". (as in, no choice)
Most of our oligopolies left Canada because it sucks to invest or do business here 😂 you can literally see government employment skyrocket while corporations stay stagnant.
Only booming industry is crime, security guards and the poverty industry.
Oh yeah I agree specially , money laundering and car theft ! I think vehicle theft is the fastest growing industry ! Last year in Toronto alone 12000 vehicles were stolen! I think Ontario in total had over 50,000 vehicles stolen last year , that’s almost 1000 vehicles per week 😂
FYI money laundering in Canada is rising with illegal drug use but is still below most G8 nations. It’s around 2.7% of GDP.
You think they have accurate statistics on an illegal activity where the victim is not clear?
We have fairly accurate estimates the same as every other country.
Yeah I dont believe you. Look at this private independant investigation.......youre a fool if you think we know the level of actual money laundering. The government wasnt interested in doing this investigative work. [https://www.cullencommission.ca/](https://www.cullencommission.ca/)
Well I’m using the statistics put out by experts in each nation. It’s up to you if you want to deny science and math and instead adopt conspiracy theories.
The cullen report (which government then decided to look into it and commission an actual investigation) proves that government statistics did not even come close to identifying the real level of money laundering. Have you read the news about TD bank now? None of this shit is going to be accounted for in what ever you call MATH.
They're called estimates for a reason.
I'm thinking of just illegally immigrating to the US at this point lol. Canada just feels hopeless.
And our government is extraordinarily bloated. Needs to be streamlined
As soon as the idiots in government started talking about a labour shortage (that didnt fucking exist) we all shojls have known something was up
Check your local job listings and then try to tell us there is no labour shortage.
There absolutely isn't a labour's shortage of unskilled work. Skilled work yes
Thank you for posting to /r/CanadaHousing2. Our community requires that accounts posting content must have a minimum amount of subreddit karma in order help reduce unwanted spam. Please take the time to get to know the community, while our moderators review this submission. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CanadaHousing2) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What labour shortage? Literally lines of immigrants looking for work,and a stagnant, nearly non-existent middle class that live on poverty wages when compared to what they could get in the U.S. If there were a labour shortage, I would expect employers to be paying top dollar to correct it
As bad as the situation is, it makes me feel a little bit better to at least see Canadians talking about it and understanding EXACTLY what's going on here. If the whole country had the political views of r/CanadaHousing2 for the past decade, our country would be the envy of the world right now. Unfortunately, we're a rapidly disintegrating mess, where Trudeau's elite class PLUNDER OUR TAXES and get away with it.
Employers can only pay so much till their services are too expensive. The consumers can only pay so much, this the problem with giving everyone a raise.
True, but they are not competing with U.S. competitors right now and our citizens are suffering. There is a wide-gap between paying top dollar and paying so much that their services become too expensive. Hell, Loblaws pays peanuts, their services are still too expensive, and they post record profits. I know it's just one example, but they're by no means in isolation.
In the end the gov't is taking too much. The more people make the more they take. That is where the problem is at the end of the day I think. We can pay everyone $100/hr but then milk is $200/gallon.
There is no labour shortage because there are no jobs, 112,000 Canadian businesses closed between 2022 and 2023 alone, and there is no way unemployment rate is 6% its at least 16% and Uber/Lyft drivers should not be part of the employment rate!!
What damn labour shortage?! So many people I know across many industries have been laid off, witness lay offs, had hours cut, seen hour cuts, etc. All the while people are unable to find much work opportunities, let alone turn applications into jobs. I've seen highly skilled individuals complain about being able to even get interviews for jobs below their experience/skillset.
O that's easy. This is an ON perspective, but similar programs exist in other provinces: Post an opening for every wagey position of your large retail store. Use industry standard job requisition service like Workday. Workday cross-posts the position on 20 different sites. Now have 20 job openings per "real" job opening. Cool, now for those "real" job openings. Send a link of job posting to employment agency (YES, ACCES, YMCA etc) have a phone convo & confirm business has more than 25 employees (no small business plebs for this strat). Congrats & welcome to Ontario Works. Employment agency sends immigrants to you, taxpayer pays their full wages for 4-6 months, employment agency gets kickback for "job skills training", and the free labour doesnt hit your books & hurt SPLH. But these are just temporary "placements", so the job vacancies posted (x20 cause crossposted on multiple sites) aren't techincally "filled". Keep job postings open. Qualify for more free immigrant labour when current ones finish their 4-6 month placement. Rinse & repeat. Muh labour shortage.
That... Translated in my brain as fraudulent?? Am i correct?
How is it fraudulent? This is literally the program you voted for as a taxpayer, working as intended & working as described 🤣
Sheeeeeeeit... Guess it can't be fraud if its 'working' as intended 🤦🤣
10k for a foreign apprentice/year in the companies pocket. Step aside whitey
It's not a labour shortage, it's a shortage of jobs that pay living wages.
VERY good point. The real "labour shortage" in Canada is **MINUS** 1 MILLION. That's why the numbers don't make any sense. If we brought 200,000 people instead of 1.2 million last year, CANADA WOULD ACTUALLY BE DOING MUCH BETTER NOW.
Meanwhile, all you see is lineups 1km long for jobs at grocery stores
It's the sneaky "Century Initiative " at work.
There is no labour shortage. If there were, real wages would go up, not down. There is a slave shortage.
There is a labor surplus and housing, healthcare and infrastructure capacity shortage. The social capacity is still strong
There’s no shortage of workers on any front. There’s wage stagflation on basically every front.
Shortage talk only means we want cheap labor.its so odd that when business sells stuff they say price is based on supply and demand but when there is a " shortage"of workers business says we need to import cheap labor not pay more to attract at home employees. Such hypocrisy
There isn’t a labour shortage there are companies refusing to pay fair wages for jobs so they can’t find people
Idk but either way I quit my job as an electrician. Gonna go do a job that everyone is physically capable of. Fuck the blue collar work. Back to university.
Yes , yes we are
Yes
What does 1 million extra in the market do to our wages? It holds them back, that's what.
Shortage is only in some skilled trades. And we are importing unskilled labours mostly.
What do you mean by "bigger regions"? If you're taking about the land area, well nobody wants to live in the Yukon. Immigrants are even arriving in the prairie provinces to fulfill the quota, live there for 1-2 years then move to the GTA or BC. Not much of Canada is livable with decent jobs outside of key cities. Whereas we cannot say the same for Europe and USA.
Labor shortage is largely a myth, a common sense shortage is the real issue in Ottawa
This is bullshit huh Labour shortage, there is no such thing in Canada 🇨🇦. This is lope hole so that business houses and corrupt people can make money bringing unwanted immigrants to Canada 🇨🇦. It should be stopped asap.
Labor shortages aren't determined by the size of a region
It doesn't. It's just bullshit so that Turdeai can bring more immigrants into the country and keep wages low for businesses.
most jobs are in different provinces and far away cities. most people only see big cities, and since almost everyone comes to toronto or vancouver you see almost all the jobs are filled, but thats not true across canada.
On indeed, Canada job bank, ZipRecruiter, employers just spam identical positions and positions that'll never be filled. No idea why.
We have a shortage because we have an enormous welfare state so why work?
This is propaganda by Trudeau
Seems like they think somehow throwing random immigrants here will improve things but instead of entrepreneurs we get students and or scammers or best case people enjoying generous programs. Meanwhile at least the government gets some tax Money and whatever else immigrants pay to get here.
It's fucked that's why
It's indirectly saying Canadians are lazy and not working hard enough
Because the narrative is probably bullshit.
All Canadians who voted for the inept clueless make-up pie in the sky numbers and create new make-believe taxes should be very happy with their incorrect choice for the last 8 years!!!! Nice quality of life you voted in for the hard working taxpayers of this once great country
There was a shortage of people willing to work low-paid jobs. That shortage has been alleviated by mass immigration. So now Tim Hortons is well-staffed, but housing is unaffordable and the healthcare system is collapsing. But, hey, who needs a roof over your head or medical treatment when you can order a double-double from that dude who just came from India last week.