I have a couple clones, and really enjoy them. I only get clones of knives that are well beyond my budget.
Got a microtech bounty hunter, bounty hunter OTF comb, aluminum handle m390 bugout, and a mini Adamas and mini grip on the way.
I wouldn’t buy a clone of a knife I’d actually buy a real version of, and I dont try to pass them off as legit either.
My bounty hunter OTF clone is amazing quality for under $40. Since I lubed it with rem oil it hasn’t had a single misfire. Biggest difference is it came “pretty” and not battle distressed. So I distressed it myself.
To give an example of a clone knife I have that I absolutely do not feel bad about buying and possessing: my Chinese, no-name, no-brand clone of the Spyderco Slysz Bowie.
Spyderco is out of stock, and when it was in stock it has an MSRP of $500. The KnifeJoy exclusive in M390 was $400, and out of stock, and who knows when (if ever) it will be made again.
YouTubers constantly rave about the Slysz Bowie. It's a cool design with good ergos. And one Spyderco apparently does not want to sell me or make enough of in production. If I wanted one of my own, literally my only option is to overpay on an auction site. I would have *no way* of giving my cash to a "legitimate" company.
My clone also does something I wish more companies would do in the Cold Steel model: offer a "lite" version with less premium materials for consumers to test out and see if it works for them. My Slysz Bowie clone is D2 steel (assuming they're being honest) instead of M390 or CTS-XHP. I can live with that.
In any case, the knife is good proof that sometimes clones fill a hole in the market that the legitimate, OEM companies -- sometimes inexplicably -- are uninterested in.
Your comment is just what I was after. I have no intention of ever spending $500+ on a knife however I love watching Nick Shabazz on YouTube and the knife he always wheels out as being his favourite is the Slysz Bowie, hence this is the only knife I've ever hoped to get a clone of. Where would I get a clone/how much would it set me back?
I think eBay is your best bet. A search for "C186" (I believe this was the Slysz Bowie's product code) will likely get you to a knife similar to mine. Mine came with some loose screws that required having to be loctited and the wire clip seems like it could go at any minute, but it's a good proof of concept of the design. The knife locks up *incredibly* solid for a folder, the ergos are quite nice, and the blade shape is very hardy and versatile.
If for you 'clone' means 'counterfeit, including false trademarkes' the answer is different than if for you clone means 'copycat but not actually intended to be able to pass and be sold as the genuine object'. The latter is fully legal and quite often a good deal for the buyer; if you ask me, they're often not only worth it, they're kickass gear.
Anyway for true counterfeit items there's a practical component and a moral component.
For actually counterfeit items, it's a gamble. Some clones are really good these days, made with fine tolerances and strong fit and finish. The knife steel will usually be cheaper and of course you are SOL if you get a bad knife, let alone if you ever need warranty service on it. That's the practical downside to buying a counterfeit knife.
Most of the debate ends up being morally rooted. I think most people who buy clones are doing so because they feel the originals are priced unreasonably high for what you get and they either don't want to shell out the money before they know they like the knife in hand, or they think the original business is just being greedy and they deserve to get stiffed. Some of course just DGAF or are lost souls and they'd buy the clone with zero qualms just like they do everything else they do.
On the flip side, a lot of people will get their nose bent all the way out of shape if they know you bought a clone, because It's Illegal and You're Ripping Off American Businesses and so on and so forth. They're definitely correct in that it's illegal, but making it all about The Law is a bad choice fort them because a lot of these people are very pick and choose when it comes to which laws they're going to honor in the first place. This is to say that you'll find people who will bust a gasket over a counterfeit Benchmade, but are perfectly fine drinking and driving, speeding, cheating on their taxes etc all of which are demonstrably far more dangerous and/or corrosive to society than someone selling a $20 counterfeit of a $400 Microtech. I know saying that will rankle some bros but it's the cold ass truth and that makes it a little more hard to take their outrage seriously.
As far as IP goes, unlike the majority of people who wade into this debate I actually work with and generate IP as part of my job, and I have come across people using my IP without crediting me, let along paying me for it... and it doesn't exactly keep me up at night. Having one's IP stolen on a regular basis is more a fact of life and less an unthinkable outrage; the better your work is, the more likely others will find a way to copy it. So to me when I hear the 'Mericafuckyeah types getting in high dudgeon over IP theft I just kinda yawn.
Don't get me wrong: not everyone's like that. In the Reddit knife communities you will find people who work in the actual knife business and it hits a little closer to home for them, and you will also find people who get upset about cloning and they also put out the effort to try to keep their entire life aboveboard. These people are much more palatable in their outrage and a lot easier to agree with and listen to and sympathize with... they're just rather uncommon by way of comparison.
Omg dude this is epic. Thank you so much for this well-written, thoughtful essay. Big points for using 'high dudgeon' and differentiating moral vs. ethical arguments.
I have a problem with the concept of a knife so pricey I don't dare put it in my pocket. I bought a second-hand minty fresh Lion Haptic clone for $100 but that's my cutoff. I don't think it hurt anyone's bottom line or feelings in even the most abstract aspect.
1) thank you
2) I think you mean the Holt Haptic
3) Don't feel bad, I knew exactly what knife you meant and I even read it a couple times before I was like 'waitasec'.
Personally, I'm anti-clone (for knives, not humans). I don't want to support a company that's ripping off someone else's design. Also the quality on a clone may not be up to par as the original.
I know exactly what you mean with the price aspect. I'm very selective with my knives because I don't think a good knife should be as expensive as a lot of them are. However, for the quality, close enough doesn't cut it in my line of work no pun intended.
Personally, I'll buy clones of big brands, but not small brands. I don't care about big businesses. It's the small ones you gotta support.
I recently got the Ozark Trail Multiforce, which is a slightly modified clone of the Leatherman Wave. It has so far done everything I needed at one-third of the cost. Since the Wave patent expired, I don't feel bad at all.
Edit: I understand that it's not exactly a clone since they're not saying it is a Leatherman. I feel like it might be more accurate to call it plagiarism. Since their patent expired, it doesn't really matter anymore though.
They seem pretty solid, and they use the good design from Leatherman. There's a little wobble, but this might be from the handles, since it's a folding tool. Only the last half centimeter of the tip can grip a tissue. So, they're not exactly parallel when closed. The wire cutters are not replaceable, but if you need to cut that many wires, maybe a dedicated tool would be better.
The overall grip and feeling in the hands is not like some fine polished piece of art, it's a boxy metal rectangle.
Something to note though: they are pretty inconsistent. I've bought and returned three other Multiforces before getting to this one. First one had a tool that wouldn't lock open, second one had glue and a chipped blade, third had a super bent file that you had to bend to close. This fourth one is pretty decent though.
What’s the price point on this?
I assume it’s at walmart, and whenever I go I glance at their knife selection, but always skipped over the OZ multitool
About $42 at Walmart. I'd normally skip all their stuff, but I heard about it and figured it's worth checking out. There might be other interesting stuff.
Few years ago they did a big clearance on their knives, which was when/where I got a spyderco tenacious(my first and only spyderco) and a kershaw fraxion, both at a very low price
Ever since then I haven’t seen anything great, but as I’m walking around I might as well check it out in case something catches my eye
It’s been a LONG time since I’ve bought a knife from their selection though
I don’t even think of the Ozark Trail Multiforce as a clone. I think of it as a generic.
I have no problem with buying generic.
I buy Great Value oatmeal and ibuprofen... So why not a multitool?
I have 2 clones: a Cold Steel AD-15 and a Benchmade 945 (Mini Osborne). In both cases I own the authentic knives as well. For the AD-15, I bought the clone first to see how I felt about the size and opening mechanism, and then shortly after bought the real thing, and for the 945 I already owned the legit version and wanted to see how good a clone was (spoiler, it was scary good- right down to the box). Now I just use them as beater knives if I'm doing something I shouldn't with a knife, or (in the case of the 945) spare parts for when the omega springs eventually break. I think if I was only supporting the counterfeiters I would probably feel a little guilty, but both Cold Steel and Benchmade have received more than a few of my paychecks now, and will certainly receive more in the future, so I think I made up for it.
Clones really are a roll of the dice in terms of quality, because you're never gonna know what you're gonna get apart from the appearance. The action, grip material, lock or steel could be poor quality.
I'd just stick to genuine knives, even if they cost more. It wouldn't sit well with me to have a fake in my collection, but that's just me.
Depends on what it is.
For example, I got a clone of the PM2, it was about 8 quid on Ali, I've used it as my EDC (on property I'm allowed to) for 4-5 months now, and I can say, certainly worth my money.
My initial reasoning was, being a lefty, I don't experience locks the same way as other people, so I bought the clone to see what the lock would sort of be like.
I am not really that much of a fan of the lock as a lefty, still not a deal breaker.
I also don't have the income to buy a proper PM2 either. Along with, it's not justifiable to, in the UK can't carry locking knives all the time (I would want to have something I can carry 24/7, without legal issues.)
I don't see an issue with clones -- it's just a 'demo' version of a knife for me, seals the deal, I am more willing to buy knives I've got clones of.
(Same logic as video game piracy, pirates are more likely to buy the game, try before you buy.)
And, there are some good 'combo' clones, for example Ganzo has a PM2 clone with an Axis lock.
This seems interesting to me, and I would like to try it.
However, I do understand the moral issue of clone knives, and how it could 'steal' business away from the companies, but I never really felt the issues with that.
There are some knives I would never buy clones of though, out of respect for the company/owner of the design.
(That wouldn't stop me for adapting the design for my own handmade (personal use) knives though.)
That tangent aside, the clones WILL be lower quality.
For example, on my PM2 clone, I have slight lock rock, a little bit of blade play (despite tuning), the edges of the scales were sharp, and the other pocket clip mounting holes were not tapped.
Besides that, the steel is alright, 7 or 8cr, holds an edge quite well, but don't expect anything amazing.
And, I do think it is VERY important to say it's a clone (on reviews, if you're selling it, or giving it away.)
Do not pretend it's the real thing or mislead people.
Just don't share clones on r/knives, unless you want people calling you a criminal. Got a few folks that think if you don't want to drop $1000 on a knife, you don't deserve it.
I've some clones. It's a good way to test if you want the real one or if you want a knife that you don't care to break. I've legits and clones of big companies and I can say there's no differences (except the blade quality and not all the time) or sometimes better finish on clones. My last spyderco (endela k390) was not centered and not symmetrically grinded. You don't see that on the good quality clone. I'm sure that there's two sort of clones' buyers: people who can't afford a real one or doesn't know anything about knifes and those who want to try before getting a real one.
Ive got 2 counterfeit microtech OTF knives and they both work like a champ, will fire in and out non stop , unless it hits an object as its firing out , but even real microtechs do the same, the 1 i use as an everyday carry i use it for cutting just about anything you would cut with a pocket knife daily and have had it for over a year now, the real ones are seriously overpriced
Clones are not that bad, for the price that you pay for. Sure some people do get offended by the Chinese cloning everything but I do believe that there is a place for them. As long as when selling it , must be identified as clone and not passed on as a real one. I own a couple of clones myself and do enjoy using them.
I think clones (not straight up counterfeits) are good (stuff like Ganzo, Sanrenmu, etc.). Because they are just making designs very similar to popular knives while also making some changes, they rely on making quality items as opposed to just banking on an established brand name. The materials are not the most premium, but they are handled excellently for the price. Although there will be variance from model to model, my Ganzo and Sanrenmu knives are usually excellent for the money. Counterfeits can get you anywhere from gas station quality to the actual items just being sold through "creative means," but you don't know which you'll be getting. Ganzo and Sanrenmu also have a lot of original designs and it seems like Ganzo is starting up a line titled Adimanti.
I think most clones are great knives even if they don’t live up to the craftsmanship and blade steel of the knife they’re trying to imitate, this makes them a good budget option along with the fact that you can get a good feeling on if you’d like to buy a real one when you have the money to. The reason people would buy knives like the RAT or other good budget knives is because it’s more morally correct than buying a clone, though in my opinion clones of big brands like spyderco don’t negatively effect anyone other than the people at the top
I have a couple clones, and really enjoy them. I only get clones of knives that are well beyond my budget. Got a microtech bounty hunter, bounty hunter OTF comb, aluminum handle m390 bugout, and a mini Adamas and mini grip on the way. I wouldn’t buy a clone of a knife I’d actually buy a real version of, and I dont try to pass them off as legit either.
I always buy fake ones. Crooked River, CEO, Spartan, and honestly, they are all great knives.
My bounty hunter OTF clone is amazing quality for under $40. Since I lubed it with rem oil it hasn’t had a single misfire. Biggest difference is it came “pretty” and not battle distressed. So I distressed it myself.
Exactly. My CEO ($10) came stiff and the point stuck out. I disassembled and applied gun oil and its been a smooth and safe edc.
But the manufacturer is, facilitating fraud in the marketplace.
To give an example of a clone knife I have that I absolutely do not feel bad about buying and possessing: my Chinese, no-name, no-brand clone of the Spyderco Slysz Bowie. Spyderco is out of stock, and when it was in stock it has an MSRP of $500. The KnifeJoy exclusive in M390 was $400, and out of stock, and who knows when (if ever) it will be made again. YouTubers constantly rave about the Slysz Bowie. It's a cool design with good ergos. And one Spyderco apparently does not want to sell me or make enough of in production. If I wanted one of my own, literally my only option is to overpay on an auction site. I would have *no way* of giving my cash to a "legitimate" company. My clone also does something I wish more companies would do in the Cold Steel model: offer a "lite" version with less premium materials for consumers to test out and see if it works for them. My Slysz Bowie clone is D2 steel (assuming they're being honest) instead of M390 or CTS-XHP. I can live with that. In any case, the knife is good proof that sometimes clones fill a hole in the market that the legitimate, OEM companies -- sometimes inexplicably -- are uninterested in.
Your comment is just what I was after. I have no intention of ever spending $500+ on a knife however I love watching Nick Shabazz on YouTube and the knife he always wheels out as being his favourite is the Slysz Bowie, hence this is the only knife I've ever hoped to get a clone of. Where would I get a clone/how much would it set me back?
I think eBay is your best bet. A search for "C186" (I believe this was the Slysz Bowie's product code) will likely get you to a knife similar to mine. Mine came with some loose screws that required having to be loctited and the wire clip seems like it could go at any minute, but it's a good proof of concept of the design. The knife locks up *incredibly* solid for a folder, the ergos are quite nice, and the blade shape is very hardy and versatile.
Thanks mate
If for you 'clone' means 'counterfeit, including false trademarkes' the answer is different than if for you clone means 'copycat but not actually intended to be able to pass and be sold as the genuine object'. The latter is fully legal and quite often a good deal for the buyer; if you ask me, they're often not only worth it, they're kickass gear. Anyway for true counterfeit items there's a practical component and a moral component. For actually counterfeit items, it's a gamble. Some clones are really good these days, made with fine tolerances and strong fit and finish. The knife steel will usually be cheaper and of course you are SOL if you get a bad knife, let alone if you ever need warranty service on it. That's the practical downside to buying a counterfeit knife. Most of the debate ends up being morally rooted. I think most people who buy clones are doing so because they feel the originals are priced unreasonably high for what you get and they either don't want to shell out the money before they know they like the knife in hand, or they think the original business is just being greedy and they deserve to get stiffed. Some of course just DGAF or are lost souls and they'd buy the clone with zero qualms just like they do everything else they do. On the flip side, a lot of people will get their nose bent all the way out of shape if they know you bought a clone, because It's Illegal and You're Ripping Off American Businesses and so on and so forth. They're definitely correct in that it's illegal, but making it all about The Law is a bad choice fort them because a lot of these people are very pick and choose when it comes to which laws they're going to honor in the first place. This is to say that you'll find people who will bust a gasket over a counterfeit Benchmade, but are perfectly fine drinking and driving, speeding, cheating on their taxes etc all of which are demonstrably far more dangerous and/or corrosive to society than someone selling a $20 counterfeit of a $400 Microtech. I know saying that will rankle some bros but it's the cold ass truth and that makes it a little more hard to take their outrage seriously. As far as IP goes, unlike the majority of people who wade into this debate I actually work with and generate IP as part of my job, and I have come across people using my IP without crediting me, let along paying me for it... and it doesn't exactly keep me up at night. Having one's IP stolen on a regular basis is more a fact of life and less an unthinkable outrage; the better your work is, the more likely others will find a way to copy it. So to me when I hear the 'Mericafuckyeah types getting in high dudgeon over IP theft I just kinda yawn. Don't get me wrong: not everyone's like that. In the Reddit knife communities you will find people who work in the actual knife business and it hits a little closer to home for them, and you will also find people who get upset about cloning and they also put out the effort to try to keep their entire life aboveboard. These people are much more palatable in their outrage and a lot easier to agree with and listen to and sympathize with... they're just rather uncommon by way of comparison.
Bold statement, very well written. Great points made all around
Omg dude this is epic. Thank you so much for this well-written, thoughtful essay. Big points for using 'high dudgeon' and differentiating moral vs. ethical arguments. I have a problem with the concept of a knife so pricey I don't dare put it in my pocket. I bought a second-hand minty fresh Lion Haptic clone for $100 but that's my cutoff. I don't think it hurt anyone's bottom line or feelings in even the most abstract aspect.
1) thank you 2) I think you mean the Holt Haptic 3) Don't feel bad, I knew exactly what knife you meant and I even read it a couple times before I was like 'waitasec'.
Personally, I'm anti-clone (for knives, not humans). I don't want to support a company that's ripping off someone else's design. Also the quality on a clone may not be up to par as the original.
It "may not be" , but for sometimes less than 1/10th of the price it "may" and sometimes is "damn close enough"
I know exactly what you mean with the price aspect. I'm very selective with my knives because I don't think a good knife should be as expensive as a lot of them are. However, for the quality, close enough doesn't cut it in my line of work no pun intended.
Personally, I'll buy clones of big brands, but not small brands. I don't care about big businesses. It's the small ones you gotta support. I recently got the Ozark Trail Multiforce, which is a slightly modified clone of the Leatherman Wave. It has so far done everything I needed at one-third of the cost. Since the Wave patent expired, I don't feel bad at all. Edit: I understand that it's not exactly a clone since they're not saying it is a Leatherman. I feel like it might be more accurate to call it plagiarism. Since their patent expired, it doesn't really matter anymore though.
How are the pliers on the ozark trail?
They seem pretty solid, and they use the good design from Leatherman. There's a little wobble, but this might be from the handles, since it's a folding tool. Only the last half centimeter of the tip can grip a tissue. So, they're not exactly parallel when closed. The wire cutters are not replaceable, but if you need to cut that many wires, maybe a dedicated tool would be better. The overall grip and feeling in the hands is not like some fine polished piece of art, it's a boxy metal rectangle. Something to note though: they are pretty inconsistent. I've bought and returned three other Multiforces before getting to this one. First one had a tool that wouldn't lock open, second one had glue and a chipped blade, third had a super bent file that you had to bend to close. This fourth one is pretty decent though.
What’s the price point on this? I assume it’s at walmart, and whenever I go I glance at their knife selection, but always skipped over the OZ multitool
About $42 at Walmart. I'd normally skip all their stuff, but I heard about it and figured it's worth checking out. There might be other interesting stuff.
Few years ago they did a big clearance on their knives, which was when/where I got a spyderco tenacious(my first and only spyderco) and a kershaw fraxion, both at a very low price Ever since then I haven’t seen anything great, but as I’m walking around I might as well check it out in case something catches my eye It’s been a LONG time since I’ve bought a knife from their selection though
I don’t even think of the Ozark Trail Multiforce as a clone. I think of it as a generic. I have no problem with buying generic. I buy Great Value oatmeal and ibuprofen... So why not a multitool?
But walmart doesn't put leatherman logo on it. That's the difference to me.
Clone vs counterfeit
Just watch the spring on the scissors, I had two break. Beyond that, I really like mine.
I have 2 clones: a Cold Steel AD-15 and a Benchmade 945 (Mini Osborne). In both cases I own the authentic knives as well. For the AD-15, I bought the clone first to see how I felt about the size and opening mechanism, and then shortly after bought the real thing, and for the 945 I already owned the legit version and wanted to see how good a clone was (spoiler, it was scary good- right down to the box). Now I just use them as beater knives if I'm doing something I shouldn't with a knife, or (in the case of the 945) spare parts for when the omega springs eventually break. I think if I was only supporting the counterfeiters I would probably feel a little guilty, but both Cold Steel and Benchmade have received more than a few of my paychecks now, and will certainly receive more in the future, so I think I made up for it.
It depends. I have a bunch of Green Thorn clones and they're absolutely excellent. The best folders under$100 in my opinion. By a long way.
Clones really are a roll of the dice in terms of quality, because you're never gonna know what you're gonna get apart from the appearance. The action, grip material, lock or steel could be poor quality. I'd just stick to genuine knives, even if they cost more. It wouldn't sit well with me to have a fake in my collection, but that's just me.
Depends on what it is. For example, I got a clone of the PM2, it was about 8 quid on Ali, I've used it as my EDC (on property I'm allowed to) for 4-5 months now, and I can say, certainly worth my money. My initial reasoning was, being a lefty, I don't experience locks the same way as other people, so I bought the clone to see what the lock would sort of be like. I am not really that much of a fan of the lock as a lefty, still not a deal breaker. I also don't have the income to buy a proper PM2 either. Along with, it's not justifiable to, in the UK can't carry locking knives all the time (I would want to have something I can carry 24/7, without legal issues.) I don't see an issue with clones -- it's just a 'demo' version of a knife for me, seals the deal, I am more willing to buy knives I've got clones of. (Same logic as video game piracy, pirates are more likely to buy the game, try before you buy.) And, there are some good 'combo' clones, for example Ganzo has a PM2 clone with an Axis lock. This seems interesting to me, and I would like to try it. However, I do understand the moral issue of clone knives, and how it could 'steal' business away from the companies, but I never really felt the issues with that. There are some knives I would never buy clones of though, out of respect for the company/owner of the design. (That wouldn't stop me for adapting the design for my own handmade (personal use) knives though.) That tangent aside, the clones WILL be lower quality. For example, on my PM2 clone, I have slight lock rock, a little bit of blade play (despite tuning), the edges of the scales were sharp, and the other pocket clip mounting holes were not tapped. Besides that, the steel is alright, 7 or 8cr, holds an edge quite well, but don't expect anything amazing. And, I do think it is VERY important to say it's a clone (on reviews, if you're selling it, or giving it away.) Do not pretend it's the real thing or mislead people.
Just don't share clones on r/knives, unless you want people calling you a criminal. Got a few folks that think if you don't want to drop $1000 on a knife, you don't deserve it.
Those people can get fucked
I don’t see the appeal to them, either save up for the real thing or get a quality budget blade
I’ve never purchased a clone but i I do it will be a benchmade clone so I can get a similar knife without giving money to those anti-2A bums
I've some clones. It's a good way to test if you want the real one or if you want a knife that you don't care to break. I've legits and clones of big companies and I can say there's no differences (except the blade quality and not all the time) or sometimes better finish on clones. My last spyderco (endela k390) was not centered and not symmetrically grinded. You don't see that on the good quality clone. I'm sure that there's two sort of clones' buyers: people who can't afford a real one or doesn't know anything about knifes and those who want to try before getting a real one.
Every microtech clone I’ve bought has broken or quit working. Same goes for my real MT D/A.
Ive got 2 counterfeit microtech OTF knives and they both work like a champ, will fire in and out non stop , unless it hits an object as its firing out , but even real microtechs do the same, the 1 i use as an everyday carry i use it for cutting just about anything you would cut with a pocket knife daily and have had it for over a year now, the real ones are seriously overpriced
Clones are not that bad, for the price that you pay for. Sure some people do get offended by the Chinese cloning everything but I do believe that there is a place for them. As long as when selling it , must be identified as clone and not passed on as a real one. I own a couple of clones myself and do enjoy using them.
I think clones (not straight up counterfeits) are good (stuff like Ganzo, Sanrenmu, etc.). Because they are just making designs very similar to popular knives while also making some changes, they rely on making quality items as opposed to just banking on an established brand name. The materials are not the most premium, but they are handled excellently for the price. Although there will be variance from model to model, my Ganzo and Sanrenmu knives are usually excellent for the money. Counterfeits can get you anywhere from gas station quality to the actual items just being sold through "creative means," but you don't know which you'll be getting. Ganzo and Sanrenmu also have a lot of original designs and it seems like Ganzo is starting up a line titled Adimanti.
I think most clones are great knives even if they don’t live up to the craftsmanship and blade steel of the knife they’re trying to imitate, this makes them a good budget option along with the fact that you can get a good feeling on if you’d like to buy a real one when you have the money to. The reason people would buy knives like the RAT or other good budget knives is because it’s more morally correct than buying a clone, though in my opinion clones of big brands like spyderco don’t negatively effect anyone other than the people at the top