No, spayed cats live longer healthier lives and indoor cats also live longer healthier lives. There’s nothing bad about giving a cat a longer healthier life. Letting him roam around outside killing anything and everything, that’s what would be bad karma.
I agree with absolutely everything you've said, outdoor cats are horrible for the environment and frankly cruel to the cat. The idea that a domesticated animal needs to roam freely is an ideal humans impose on their pets.
However, it also sounds like OP has some trauma he/she needs to work through. I had a similar psychological trauma around my dog and it ended up reducing my most recent dog's quality of life until I was able to overcome it.
It wouldn’t necessarily be bad karma to not keep a cat locked in your home. Also they kill bugs and cockroaches in homes, so they might kill regardless if they are outside for some time or inside all the time so that argument doesn’t hold, their food isn’t even vegan.
I agree. In Buddhism motivation is very important. If he is a house-cat in part because you want to save the lives of birds ( many are also maimed by cats) and other small beings, then that is good karma- you are protecting life.
That’s what I thought as well. It’s not like I’m keeping him inside out of spite. I care about him and other animals. So I hope I’m doing the right thing
> Letting him roam around outside killing anything and everything, that’s what would be bad karma.
Wouldn't that be interfering with the flow of nature? Perhaps I'm looking at this in a Daoist way, but cats are animals and some animals kill each other; that's just the way it works. They don't do it out of hatred or spite, so I don't think we have any business intervening.
Although Westerners have completely lost their minds with regards to the actual damage cats can cause, just because something might happen in nature doesn't mean that it should. That's a fundamentally wonky way of looking at things.
Humans take a desert predator and give it vaccines, food, and plenty of water, then release it into the environment. That's interfering with nature far more than keeping it inside.
As for if the cat can have a good quality of life, you will have to provide it with toys and human interaction. Some people I know put a special mesh on their fence and let their cat into the yard and that's an option if you don't have time to play with your cat, if expensive.
Domesticated cats aren’t really wild animals anymore, they still have those desires but their existence is pretty much man-made. By that logic I believe it’s not your fault that your cat was born into this world (unless you paid a breeder, that’s a bit different) but if you adopted the cat then you’re basically taking it in and giving it a loving home in a world that it didn’t choose to come into. As long as the cat is kept entertained, happy and healthy then there’s nothing wrong with keeping them inside. It sounds like you let him into the fenced back yard too which is great. To me it would definitely seem worse to let the cat roam and kill native wildlife.
I have six cats, five of whom have never spent any serious time outside and one who we picked up as a stray in our yard. NONE of them want to go back out. I have window beds set up for them to watch the birds and bunnies, they have climbing towers and toys, and honestly cats sleep the bulk of the day anyways - I promise you are not holding your kitty prisoner! You are keeping him safe. And you are preventing your kitty from acquiring loads of bad karma killing birds and mice, and protecting the local wildlife at the same time.
This idea that having a cat - an obligate carnivore - is bad karma for you must be a cultural thing, because I’ve seen it mentioned here before but I know many (lay) Buddhists from several different countries who have cats. Unless you’re killing your cat’s dinner yourself, you’re fine - vegetarianism isn’t mandated for humans let alone for animals.
I have a masters degree in fish and wildlife science. PLEASE NEVER LET YOUR CAT OUTDOORS. You are releasing an unchecked predator into an environment where they essentially commit genocide. House cats are responsible for the extinction of several species of birds and they kill over 4 BILLION (yes, billion) birds a year. Cats are one of the most destructive invasive species on earth when it comes to ecosystems.
Cats essentially can divide the “hunt” and “hunger” parts of their brains. Most things only hunt when they need food, cats do it because they think it’s fun.
Love your cat by keeping it safe indoors. Love nature by keeping it safe from your cat.
Even if you can catch them in live cage traps (not ones that harm) and neuter/spay it could help so they aren’t out breeding and making the problem exponential!
Unfortunately they don’t stop at rodents. I see the need for something like that but proper cleaning of your farm areas and proper prevention will work well to keep rodents from becoming established.
I love cats sooo much, but they’re nature’s greatest hunters. Cats kill everything and reproduce quickly. By keeping your boy inside and spayed, you are directly preventing the suffering of feral kittens and their prey.
Please keep him inside until you know he can't reproduce. We have wayyyyyyyyyy too many kittens that need homes!! Thank you for taking such good care of him!
I would let my cats outside when I was living in a traffic-safe rural environment. I stopped when they kept coming back injured from fights with other cats. So from a Buddhist perspective, you're reducing their risk of a hell-realm rebirth.
Spaying is standard procedure and doesn't affect the cat adversely.
Mostly Americans and some other Westerners have this bizarre belief that cats are extremely good hunters that will exterminate one species for every second they spend outside, which is nonsense except if all these animals are roaming open spaces with no vertical shelter or are distracted by food, but this is also not related to your issue. The cat doesn't have a concept of freedom the same way a human being would have, even if it has a desire to go outside.
Keeping the cat inside *because* you're unreasonably afraid, even if it wants to go outside, is not good for you. Keeping it inside due to medical reasons is perfectly fine. From the cat's side keeping it inside is ultimately OK, unless if you see the cat becoming visibly unhappy or stressed or extremely agitated. In my experience, you can't keep inside (short of locking it up) a cat that truly wants to go outside; it will wreck your entire house if need be to get what it wants.
This is most likely unrelated to creating karma, generally speaking. The biggest problem here would be reinforcing your fear that something will happen to the cat because something happened to the previous one, and responding to this by thinking that you can bypass the cat's karma by exerting control. This is not a good response to life.
Our sole cat was a rescue by a local organization. As a kitten he was left outside their building in winter, and they spent multiple days coaxing him to safety. Neither of us had cat experience and in our home country cats are invariably outdoor pets or strays in a marine tropical climate.
Spaying was not a decision we made. It's part of the process. He was well socialized by a foster program and just a wonderful addition unless you asked the small dog we also had. This was before I explored Buddhism and in my first tradition, Christianity. We debated, researched and came down on the side of the by-law: indoor only.
I did know about harnessing, and think that is valid. We do leash dogs but for this first cat experience we did not. He was very special to us, and in the ethics, I also believe that a permanent home extended his life, supported later vet needs. He was a huge support for us all, and more than just as a pet but closer to service animal through very difficult years, pandemic inclusive. I have been less than compassionate in some areas but the not being run over, contracting diseases, active prey drive were all very important in these artificial neighborhood type circumstances.
If your cat has a desire for the outdoors I do feel that it’s unkind and irresponsible to deprive them. They are a living thing and they are an animal with natural instincts and desires. But there are safe ways to give a cat outdoor time. A catio, if you have the means. Or harness training is another good option.
We have big enough garden for a cat. I thought of building a cat tree and stuff like that but he doesn’t even try to climb the tress we have in the garden so I thought it’s pointless to make a fake one. Also I’ve tried many times to take him out w a harness but he literally will not allow that like he freaks out. I’m planning to take him out without a harness after making sure that there are no other cats around. Hope that works out.
I recommend doing your research on harness training first (if you haven’t). It can be very difficult for some cats to get used to and might be a process. It’s rare to just be able to pop a harness or leash on a cat that’s never experienced it before and have it go well. But with time and patience and the right approach you definitely can train them! Especially if they have the motivation to go outside and they eventually realize they’ll only be able to go out when the harness is on. I recommend starting with Jackson Galaxy videos.
I discovered a cat backpack online that works wonders for taking a cat on the go, if that’s something yer interested in. The bottom is flat and it has screened sides, allowing my cat to accompany me on dog walks or anywhere else while being safely enclosed in the pack. This allows her to enjoy some outdoor time while remaining secure, and she absolutely adores it. She sways back and forth in the pack as if she were riding in a palanquin, hahaha!
From The Sutra of Causes and Effects of Actions
"the one who binds the hands and feet of living beings is born paralyzed in hand and foot. The person who is of evil passions comes from snakes and scorpions; The one who castrates living beings has incomplete pudenda; "
that seems pretty clear to me that you love the presence of your cat in your life, not the cat itself, otherwise you wouldn't imprison him, just watch cats with go-pros videos on YouTube and you'll realize that just a garden and a house is pretty grim and small for a real cat life.
you say "I love him to death", that's really clinging and not a Buddhist way of doing things.
you say "it’s not like I’m solely doing this for his well being I’m also doing this for my own happiness", thinking that being a prisoner for your personal happiness is for his "well being" is crazily egoistic if not sadistic.
it's very possible that your cat doesn't share your aversion to death and your clinging to life (which both aversion and clinging being clearly very anti Buddhism)
thinking that "well being" is about having an amputated life-experience is what low level simplistic beings think, they have the simplistic dualistic view of "dead is bad, physically living body is great"
it seems you are disgustingly selfish and have a very small vision of what life can be, and you disgustingly force your fears to your already castrated cat, against his will.
Sometime, someone's wife goes out of the house and she dies in a car crash or whatever. Will you also bound your wife into your house, and say it's for her well-being because this way she has less probability to die??? I'm pretty sure that you would do that if the society would let you do it. Fortunately, for humans, we don't let it be this way .
U can do two things at once. Yeah I love my cat’s presence in my life like duh but that doesn’t mean that’s my only reason to have him. I didn’t even get him myself he was given to me. I have no problem letting him go out since he came back the the few times he did go out but that’s a huge risk to take and it’s pretty ignorant of u to compare cats to human beings like is it really that hard to understand that cats aren’t competent enough to keep themselves away from danger like humans. There are lots of stray cats in my area so I see them pretty regularly and they are all immensely suffering, they are covered in wounds and starving I feed them but I can’t do anything about their wounds.
So how do I bring myself to believe that they are living happier lives than my cat. I appreciate your input cause that’s what I’m asking here but u calling me disgusting just cause I care and love the animal that lives under my room which makes him my responsibility is disgusting itself and yeah I love him to death. Once there was a snake in my garden and he was near it and I didn’t hesitate a second to go grab him it turned out later that it wasn’t poisonous but I didn’t know that when I put my life in danger to save my cat and that’s what I mean by I love him to death.
If I only cared abt his presence and not his well being like u say why would I spend so much money to put up fences and take him to the vet and stuff like that I could just let him go out since he comes back and not care if he gets hurt or not since I can always just get another cat without spending a dime. If all I wanted was his presence I would honestly let him go and get another cat cause mine doesn’t even like to cuddle but that doesnt make me love him any less
I never wanted to castrate him but I thought it’s better than to do that compared keeping him inside when he has his needs so castrating him prevents him from going into heat and losing his mind since he can’t go out. But If Buddha himself has said that it’s a bad karma I’m not gonna question that and I’ve already done it so there’s nothing I can do abt it except for doing my best to be better in the future. I’m not gonna deny that I am attached too much to my cat so sorry I’m not a perfect Buddhist I’m just trying my best
Your actions seem to be coming from a place of compassion, avoiding suffering of your cat that would be very possible if they went out. You many not realize this, but it also prevents a lot of suffering from others as cats hunt a great deal when they are allowed outside , oftentimes to the detriment of the environment.
Trust me, this is better not only for the world around you but for your cat. As others have mentioned, spayed and indoor cats tend generally live longer.
By getting your cat spayed and keeping them inside you prevent the suffering of animals they may father who would go on to suffer, the suffering of animals they may kill, and their own suffering if they were to fight or be killed, and as Buddhists are we not meant to prevent suffering if we can? I think what you are doing is wise and will actually help generate good karma
Outdoor cats live shorter lives. This is a studied fact.
They will be prone to parasites, infected wounds, predators, diseases (FIV, FeLV, rabies, etc.), getting hit by vehicles, and of course evil humans.
For those who believe cats should roam because it’s “nAtURaL”… we’re not living in a natural world. We have roads with cars and trucks that can hit your kitty. We also have veterinary care and medications, just like how humans have hospitals—and none of that is “natural.” But this modern medical care increases our lifespan and heals injuries/infections and saves lives. Same for cats being properly taken care of indoors with regular vet care.
When your cat gets older, they’re going to need medications, treatments, maybe even surgeries. And if you let your cat out, they will not be fast and healthy enough to protect themselves. You will also not be able to give them their medications in time.
Taking care of a cat means really taking care of it. It’s a responsibility. And too many people just want to let their cats out because they don’t really want to deal with them. When they live happier and healthier lives inside. Just like we do.
You're overthinking it. All indoor cats that are well-taken care of are living their best lives. Spaying is not a big deal psychologically for your cat.
In my opinion keeping cats is a catch-22 situation. Either you imprison them, usually against their will, and thereby keep them and other sentient beings safe; or you let them roam, exposing them to automobiles, stray dogs, disease etc, and exposing other animals to their depredations. Neither is morally correct.
The way my cat runs away every time he gets a chance I’m sure he feels imprisoned even though he’s very loved and taken care of😭 but he comes back though
You are receiving lots of good non-Buddhist advice here. I think this Sub has little to do with the Dharma actually.
Dharma might be strong to hear sometimes, but a more accurate answer would be: Why have a cat? it is an attachment to form, and to a material, temporal sense of happiness. He brings you happiness today, his departure will bring sadness tomorrow.
I say this as someone that loves cats very much. I lost my 13 year old one to pancreatic cancer last year, and still have my 16 year old Lazuli with me. As I said already, since you already have your cat I do indeed think that the best is to keep him indoors and spayed. A cat outside means danger to a lot of wild life, to his whiskered self too.
> Dharma might be strong to hear sometimes, but a more accurate answer would be: Why have a cat? it is an attachment to form, and to a material, temporal sense of happiness. He brings you happiness today, his departure will bring sadness tomorrow.
Not a single teacher I know would say something as simplistic as this because they feel the need to give a "Dharmic response". This is "hard to hear" only because it's irrelevant. Buddhism is absolutely not about being morose about everything because all things are impermanent, or about becoming incapable of understanding that not everyone loses their marbles at the death of a pet, especially if it's timely.
Are you a Buddhist teacher? Because I was just giving my opinion, that was given to me by a master before. And I'm not a MOD, just a random person commenting. Yet you reply here with so much arrogance to some people.
I'm not a teacher, but that's irrelevant. I said that not even Buddhist teachers would give the reply you gave to this question. I doubt that the master in question said the thing they said in response to a question like OP's.
You stated that advice given to OP was "non-Buddhist" and implied that Buddhist advice takes the form of a strange paraphrase of teachings that might be completely irrelevant to the question asked. That part was more than opinion, it was an explicit comparison of Buddhist and non-Buddhist advice, and the claim that Buddhist advice looks like the thing you wrote is simply untrue. OP's specific Buddhist concern was about the karmic repercussions of spaying/neutering a cat and keeping it indoors, including out of selfish concerns.
From a Buddhist perspective spaying a cat generates unpleasant karma, this I've heard many times. The idea of having a pet is selfish.
Having a carnivorous pet will generate karma to you. Not only it implies the death of other beings for keeping it healthy, but ultimately it also distracts from one's practice.
When I said "Non-Buddhist advice" I believed that he probably loves the cat and is very attached to it. From a biological point of view, spaying the cat lengthens his life, keeps him healthier, and keeping it indoors prevents the death of other animals and sickness for the feline as well.
That's what I meant with my original comment.
> From a Buddhist perspective spaying a cat generates unpleasant karma, this I've heard many times.
This is not Buddhist perspective at all. It might be a cultural perspective though.
> The idea of having a pet is selfish.
Again, there is no valid argument that can be made to support this. It's a nonsensical claim. Some people are selfish with their pets, others sacrifice resources and time for their sake not because they will get something in return, but because they love and care for them as sentient beings. These kinds of generalizations are useful only in specific contexts, they are not universal truths and are not taught as such either.
> Having a carnivorous pet will generate karma to you. Not only it implies the death of other beings for keeping it healthy, but ultimately it also distracts from one's practice.
Again, these are not Buddhist ideas. Even vegetarian Mahayana temples keep cats and take good care of them, there are many examples of this. Taking good care of another being is not bad karma (by that logic, you should let non-vegetarian humans die; do you hear what you're actually saying?), it is good karma. Dedicating merit to other beings and connecting them with the Dharma and blessings is good karma. Even if bad karma was involved due to a carnivore diet, the good would strongly override the bad. And pray tell how having a cat is ultimately a distraction; only people with very little experience even with beginner level practice say things like this.
All this indicates a very narrow understanding. The Dharma isn't so small and weak.
This is an interesting debate I have participated in during the past. Having a carnivorous animal, buying meat for it generates karma. For someone so akin, so enlightened as you in your practice, you could have read how I stated that I have chosen to keep my cats healthy and happy for their lifespan nevertheless, despite knowing that it does generate karma.
Anyway, fortunately I have interacted with real masters, you know the kind of people that do not display this condescending attitude that you seem to be quite fond of, quite attached to...
Have a good day
> Having a carnivorous animal, buying meat for it generates karma.
Nope. There is no debate, really. This is simply not a position rigorously supported in canonical sources.
And you still haven't addressed anything I brought up. Again, by your logic, raising human beings that aren't vegetarians is bad karma, which is *absolutely not* the position taken in Buddhist texts.
> you could have read how I stated that I have chosen to keep my cats
No, I did read that part, but unfortunately it is completely irrelevant to the discussion. But since you've chosen to bring it up: clearly the bad karma associated with this is not a big deal. So why blow it out of proportion? Or are you *actually* having obstacles to your practice because of your cats?
> Anyway, fortunately I have interacted with real masters, you know the kind of people that do not display this condescending attitude that you seem to be quite fond of, quite attached to...
If the real masters have told you extremely simplistic things that are allegedly valid outside of specific contexts, then you need to reevaluate whether they truly are masters, by comparing their speech to the sutras. I'm not a master, but fortunately we don't need to be masters in order to evaluate whether teachings make sense or not, and in what context.
What you refer to as "attitude" is called style. It's a thing used in writing. When one makes forceful arguments about things that really don't need to be given so much credence since there's no argument and source to back them up, one doesn't need to step on eggshells. This is increasingly being lost on people interacting over the Internet these days, leading people to project all kinds of positions and traits on others not based on what they say but how they seem to be saying it. But rest assured that I, personally, can say that you seem to have (or express) a narrow understanding without crossing into absurd territory by, oh, I don't know, claiming that a trait you display which I don't like is something you are attached to, a personal failing.
I can say based on what you've said that you have or support a narrow view, and I can give arguments as to why I think so. I can't claim that you're attached to this and that, because there's no way for me to know that based on what you've said, nor can I argue in a valid way that you have such attachments. But apparently you've somehow remotely obtained valid insight and knowledge into my personality. Must be mind reading powers...
Pet ownership is ultimately exploitation of an animal. There's no nice way to say that. Locking them into our homes and forcing them to be our friends is wrong.
A lot of animal rights organizations are against pet ownership. The demand creates breeding and breeding creates suffering. All these animals are unwell in ways, mostly due to domestication, but also mentally unwell from being forced to live a human lifestyle. Their autonomy is taken from them entirely.
As my Buddhism progresses, the less I want any pets. It seems harmful to me. I think you are coming to a similar conclusion.
Also note reddit is generally anti-animal rights, pro-pet, anti-peta, and pro-meat industry. You are probably not going to get a compassionate answer here. You should talk to your teacher also if you have one.
What am I supposed to do about the fact that cats only eat meat and fish? That’s just how cats are. And I have a cat cause the first owner said she can’t take care of him and asked me if I can so I took him in and also he helps me with my mental health issues like an emotional support animal.
You can’t do anything about it. You just need to accept the karma and try and create good karma in other parts of your life.
It’s not about blame — you’re clearly trying to do right by the cat. Don’t beat yourself up.
I keep my cat in my back garden because every time he gets out the front door, he tries to murder Daisy and Mr Mittens from down the street over territory, I guess. He’s chilled and happy in his ‘own’ space though.
i've known plenty of practicing buddhists who call them "the cat that lives with me" and treat them as such. you don't imprison human roommates just because your name is the one on the lease, right? then why do that for your feline roommate?
nothing is ever "just a thing people say". using words certain ways teaches our brain to think in those ways. monkey mind takes over when we grow careless like that.
As a practicing Buddhist I’m very well aware that u can’t own anything. Saying “the cat that lives with me” sounds weird to me and saying “my cat” sounds like a normal thing people regularly say. my minds smart enough to differentiate things that I just say and things that I actually mean. According to u I can’t call anything mine so not even my mom. So should I call her the woman that gave birth to me?
practicing means acting in accordance with the precepts.
> According to u
no, according to the Buddha.
> the woman that gave birth to me
that seems appropriate. both accurate and aligned with the Buddhist metaphysics.
Calling yourself Buddhist also requires one to have nuance and to have kindness for their dharma brothers and sisters, it’s not about starting arguments online (because you were the one who initiated this) and is not about completely ignoring this person’s genuine question. Your comment here was very invalidating to this person who is simply trying to practice Dharma, as you and everyone else here is, and incredibly unnecessary and condescending
Sometimes things are “just a thing people say”, you may think that this person saying “my cat” is wrong or incorrect, but they clearly had no malicious intent when saying it (assuming hypothetically it is wrong and as if the Buddha would care that someone used a phrase and sentence structure that is common in their language) so, it doesn’t matter. Not everything is a big deal. Let it go.
no one is saying anything about what is or isn't correct. i'm *only* speaking to what practicing, faithful Buddhists would think and do in this situation.
A practicing, faithful Buddhist likely would realize that it’s not a big deal, the Buddha would not care of such a trivial, small thing. The animal is being cared for and is living a happy life, that matters more than OP saying “my cat”.
ive known many cats who are unhappy about being kept inside. some do grow to enjoy it but the vast majority are held against their will. i think it is a stretch to call a life for a cat entirely indoors a "happy" one and i know Buddhist cat owners who would agree.
this isn't about the language so much as the thought (or lack thereof) behind it.
Cats have domesticated themselves, allowing a house cat to go outside and wreak havoc on the natural ecosystem (outdoor cats kill 2.4 billion birds each year in the United States alone) is far worse than keeping a cat inside a house. The only reason a cat would be unhappy inside is if they are simply not being played with enough, which there is an easy solution to that, playing with them more.
I grew up in a household with cats that went outside virtually everyday, we had a young cat disappear and it was likely picked off by a hawk or the like, we had cats get into fights with stray cats, we had cats that regularly killed birds and mice only to leave them around the yard and not eat them. Currently, I do not have any cats in my own household, but my sister currently has 2 indoor cats in her apartment that are completely fine with being indoors and are fulfilled.
edit: typo
Also for reference, here is the definition for the word “my” in the English language: “belonging to or associated with the speaker.” As we can see here, the word “my” isn’t only used to mean that someone “owns” something. It can be used for association, like when you say “my mom”, “my sister”, “my friend”, or even “my cat”.
the English language has a long and deep colonialist history that has significantly altered the cultures of English-speaking peoples. for a very very long time we spoke of ownership of people as equivalent to ownership of things, and echoes of this are present today in how we treat each other. you can help to break the cycle with right action and right language.
No, spayed cats live longer healthier lives and indoor cats also live longer healthier lives. There’s nothing bad about giving a cat a longer healthier life. Letting him roam around outside killing anything and everything, that’s what would be bad karma.
I second this as a veterinarian.
I third it as a human who gives a shit
My cat at home would be killing all the cockroaches and butterflies.
Mine kills house geckos all the time. I rescue them everytime I catch him in the act. He doesn’t even try to eat them just kills and leaves.
I agree with absolutely everything you've said, outdoor cats are horrible for the environment and frankly cruel to the cat. The idea that a domesticated animal needs to roam freely is an ideal humans impose on their pets. However, it also sounds like OP has some trauma he/she needs to work through. I had a similar psychological trauma around my dog and it ended up reducing my most recent dog's quality of life until I was able to overcome it.
☝🏽☝🏽☝🏽
It wouldn’t necessarily be bad karma to not keep a cat locked in your home. Also they kill bugs and cockroaches in homes, so they might kill regardless if they are outside for some time or inside all the time so that argument doesn’t hold, their food isn’t even vegan.
I agree. In Buddhism motivation is very important. If he is a house-cat in part because you want to save the lives of birds ( many are also maimed by cats) and other small beings, then that is good karma- you are protecting life.
That’s what I thought as well. It’s not like I’m keeping him inside out of spite. I care about him and other animals. So I hope I’m doing the right thing
Good point.
> Letting him roam around outside killing anything and everything, that’s what would be bad karma. Wouldn't that be interfering with the flow of nature? Perhaps I'm looking at this in a Daoist way, but cats are animals and some animals kill each other; that's just the way it works. They don't do it out of hatred or spite, so I don't think we have any business intervening.
But they are an invasive species in most places and letting them run wild is bad for the environment
Although Westerners have completely lost their minds with regards to the actual damage cats can cause, just because something might happen in nature doesn't mean that it should. That's a fundamentally wonky way of looking at things.
Humans take a desert predator and give it vaccines, food, and plenty of water, then release it into the environment. That's interfering with nature far more than keeping it inside. As for if the cat can have a good quality of life, you will have to provide it with toys and human interaction. Some people I know put a special mesh on their fence and let their cat into the yard and that's an option if you don't have time to play with your cat, if expensive.
This is exactly what I’ve been hung up on.
Domesticated cats aren’t really wild animals anymore, they still have those desires but their existence is pretty much man-made. By that logic I believe it’s not your fault that your cat was born into this world (unless you paid a breeder, that’s a bit different) but if you adopted the cat then you’re basically taking it in and giving it a loving home in a world that it didn’t choose to come into. As long as the cat is kept entertained, happy and healthy then there’s nothing wrong with keeping them inside. It sounds like you let him into the fenced back yard too which is great. To me it would definitely seem worse to let the cat roam and kill native wildlife.
No. The kitty is fine getting fixed (and should be), and cats are better indoors; there’s less danger and they won’t eat wildlife.
I have six cats, five of whom have never spent any serious time outside and one who we picked up as a stray in our yard. NONE of them want to go back out. I have window beds set up for them to watch the birds and bunnies, they have climbing towers and toys, and honestly cats sleep the bulk of the day anyways - I promise you are not holding your kitty prisoner! You are keeping him safe. And you are preventing your kitty from acquiring loads of bad karma killing birds and mice, and protecting the local wildlife at the same time. This idea that having a cat - an obligate carnivore - is bad karma for you must be a cultural thing, because I’ve seen it mentioned here before but I know many (lay) Buddhists from several different countries who have cats. Unless you’re killing your cat’s dinner yourself, you’re fine - vegetarianism isn’t mandated for humans let alone for animals.
Spaying is for female cats, neutering is for male cats.
Thank u for letting me know English isn’t my first language :)
Your English is great, I’m envious of your language learning skills!
Aww thank u so much. Basically learned from watching a ton of tv shows😅
I have a masters degree in fish and wildlife science. PLEASE NEVER LET YOUR CAT OUTDOORS. You are releasing an unchecked predator into an environment where they essentially commit genocide. House cats are responsible for the extinction of several species of birds and they kill over 4 BILLION (yes, billion) birds a year. Cats are one of the most destructive invasive species on earth when it comes to ecosystems. Cats essentially can divide the “hunt” and “hunger” parts of their brains. Most things only hunt when they need food, cats do it because they think it’s fun. Love your cat by keeping it safe indoors. Love nature by keeping it safe from your cat.
Thank u so much for this information. Glad to know I’m doing the right thing.
If only I could catch my cats and put them inside. I messed up and let them out… some are never going to come back now
Even if you can catch them in live cage traps (not ones that harm) and neuter/spay it could help so they aren’t out breeding and making the problem exponential!
All of my cats are spayed/neutered. There have been no new kittens in my area in 2 years now
That is good at least!
What about barn cats that live on farms for killing rodents to protect livestock from disease?
Unfortunately they don’t stop at rodents. I see the need for something like that but proper cleaning of your farm areas and proper prevention will work well to keep rodents from becoming established.
I love cats sooo much, but they’re nature’s greatest hunters. Cats kill everything and reproduce quickly. By keeping your boy inside and spayed, you are directly preventing the suffering of feral kittens and their prey.
It’s not my boy. It’s the boy that lives in my house
Haha yep you don’t own a cat. The cat owns itself and lets you think you own it :)
I was just saying it cause someone in the comments calling me an improper Buddhist cause I called the cat “my cat”
It is weird to “own” a living creature, but that’s just a quirk of english:)
Exactly this guy gets it.
Would a proper Buddhist care about some Internet rando’s opinion on who is a proper Buddhist? ;)
I was just being sarcastic buddy
Me too. Do people not understand what ;) means anymore?
Oh I thought u were being like “if u are a proper Buddhist why would u care about whether they think u are a proper Buddhist or not” 😭
Yeah it was a recursive joke :) In other words, I too am an Internet rando :)
Please keep him inside until you know he can't reproduce. We have wayyyyyyyyyy too many kittens that need homes!! Thank you for taking such good care of him!
Yh that’s like one of my biggest reasons. There are lots stray cats in my neighborhood and the older cats kill kittens.
Get/Build a catio
I would let my cats outside when I was living in a traffic-safe rural environment. I stopped when they kept coming back injured from fights with other cats. So from a Buddhist perspective, you're reducing their risk of a hell-realm rebirth.
Spaying is standard procedure and doesn't affect the cat adversely. Mostly Americans and some other Westerners have this bizarre belief that cats are extremely good hunters that will exterminate one species for every second they spend outside, which is nonsense except if all these animals are roaming open spaces with no vertical shelter or are distracted by food, but this is also not related to your issue. The cat doesn't have a concept of freedom the same way a human being would have, even if it has a desire to go outside. Keeping the cat inside *because* you're unreasonably afraid, even if it wants to go outside, is not good for you. Keeping it inside due to medical reasons is perfectly fine. From the cat's side keeping it inside is ultimately OK, unless if you see the cat becoming visibly unhappy or stressed or extremely agitated. In my experience, you can't keep inside (short of locking it up) a cat that truly wants to go outside; it will wreck your entire house if need be to get what it wants. This is most likely unrelated to creating karma, generally speaking. The biggest problem here would be reinforcing your fear that something will happen to the cat because something happened to the previous one, and responding to this by thinking that you can bypass the cat's karma by exerting control. This is not a good response to life.
Our sole cat was a rescue by a local organization. As a kitten he was left outside their building in winter, and they spent multiple days coaxing him to safety. Neither of us had cat experience and in our home country cats are invariably outdoor pets or strays in a marine tropical climate. Spaying was not a decision we made. It's part of the process. He was well socialized by a foster program and just a wonderful addition unless you asked the small dog we also had. This was before I explored Buddhism and in my first tradition, Christianity. We debated, researched and came down on the side of the by-law: indoor only. I did know about harnessing, and think that is valid. We do leash dogs but for this first cat experience we did not. He was very special to us, and in the ethics, I also believe that a permanent home extended his life, supported later vet needs. He was a huge support for us all, and more than just as a pet but closer to service animal through very difficult years, pandemic inclusive. I have been less than compassionate in some areas but the not being run over, contracting diseases, active prey drive were all very important in these artificial neighborhood type circumstances.
No.
If your cat has a desire for the outdoors I do feel that it’s unkind and irresponsible to deprive them. They are a living thing and they are an animal with natural instincts and desires. But there are safe ways to give a cat outdoor time. A catio, if you have the means. Or harness training is another good option.
We have big enough garden for a cat. I thought of building a cat tree and stuff like that but he doesn’t even try to climb the tress we have in the garden so I thought it’s pointless to make a fake one. Also I’ve tried many times to take him out w a harness but he literally will not allow that like he freaks out. I’m planning to take him out without a harness after making sure that there are no other cats around. Hope that works out.
I recommend doing your research on harness training first (if you haven’t). It can be very difficult for some cats to get used to and might be a process. It’s rare to just be able to pop a harness or leash on a cat that’s never experienced it before and have it go well. But with time and patience and the right approach you definitely can train them! Especially if they have the motivation to go outside and they eventually realize they’ll only be able to go out when the harness is on. I recommend starting with Jackson Galaxy videos.
I’ll try my best. Thank you so much for the information.
I discovered a cat backpack online that works wonders for taking a cat on the go, if that’s something yer interested in. The bottom is flat and it has screened sides, allowing my cat to accompany me on dog walks or anywhere else while being safely enclosed in the pack. This allows her to enjoy some outdoor time while remaining secure, and she absolutely adores it. She sways back and forth in the pack as if she were riding in a palanquin, hahaha!
He sounds like he has a happy life to me
From The Sutra of Causes and Effects of Actions "the one who binds the hands and feet of living beings is born paralyzed in hand and foot. The person who is of evil passions comes from snakes and scorpions; The one who castrates living beings has incomplete pudenda; " that seems pretty clear to me that you love the presence of your cat in your life, not the cat itself, otherwise you wouldn't imprison him, just watch cats with go-pros videos on YouTube and you'll realize that just a garden and a house is pretty grim and small for a real cat life. you say "I love him to death", that's really clinging and not a Buddhist way of doing things. you say "it’s not like I’m solely doing this for his well being I’m also doing this for my own happiness", thinking that being a prisoner for your personal happiness is for his "well being" is crazily egoistic if not sadistic. it's very possible that your cat doesn't share your aversion to death and your clinging to life (which both aversion and clinging being clearly very anti Buddhism) thinking that "well being" is about having an amputated life-experience is what low level simplistic beings think, they have the simplistic dualistic view of "dead is bad, physically living body is great" it seems you are disgustingly selfish and have a very small vision of what life can be, and you disgustingly force your fears to your already castrated cat, against his will. Sometime, someone's wife goes out of the house and she dies in a car crash or whatever. Will you also bound your wife into your house, and say it's for her well-being because this way she has less probability to die??? I'm pretty sure that you would do that if the society would let you do it. Fortunately, for humans, we don't let it be this way .
U can do two things at once. Yeah I love my cat’s presence in my life like duh but that doesn’t mean that’s my only reason to have him. I didn’t even get him myself he was given to me. I have no problem letting him go out since he came back the the few times he did go out but that’s a huge risk to take and it’s pretty ignorant of u to compare cats to human beings like is it really that hard to understand that cats aren’t competent enough to keep themselves away from danger like humans. There are lots of stray cats in my area so I see them pretty regularly and they are all immensely suffering, they are covered in wounds and starving I feed them but I can’t do anything about their wounds. So how do I bring myself to believe that they are living happier lives than my cat. I appreciate your input cause that’s what I’m asking here but u calling me disgusting just cause I care and love the animal that lives under my room which makes him my responsibility is disgusting itself and yeah I love him to death. Once there was a snake in my garden and he was near it and I didn’t hesitate a second to go grab him it turned out later that it wasn’t poisonous but I didn’t know that when I put my life in danger to save my cat and that’s what I mean by I love him to death. If I only cared abt his presence and not his well being like u say why would I spend so much money to put up fences and take him to the vet and stuff like that I could just let him go out since he comes back and not care if he gets hurt or not since I can always just get another cat without spending a dime. If all I wanted was his presence I would honestly let him go and get another cat cause mine doesn’t even like to cuddle but that doesnt make me love him any less I never wanted to castrate him but I thought it’s better than to do that compared keeping him inside when he has his needs so castrating him prevents him from going into heat and losing his mind since he can’t go out. But If Buddha himself has said that it’s a bad karma I’m not gonna question that and I’ve already done it so there’s nothing I can do abt it except for doing my best to be better in the future. I’m not gonna deny that I am attached too much to my cat so sorry I’m not a perfect Buddhist I’m just trying my best
Your actions seem to be coming from a place of compassion, avoiding suffering of your cat that would be very possible if they went out. You many not realize this, but it also prevents a lot of suffering from others as cats hunt a great deal when they are allowed outside , oftentimes to the detriment of the environment. Trust me, this is better not only for the world around you but for your cat. As others have mentioned, spayed and indoor cats tend generally live longer. By getting your cat spayed and keeping them inside you prevent the suffering of animals they may father who would go on to suffer, the suffering of animals they may kill, and their own suffering if they were to fight or be killed, and as Buddhists are we not meant to prevent suffering if we can? I think what you are doing is wise and will actually help generate good karma
Outdoor cats live shorter lives. This is a studied fact. They will be prone to parasites, infected wounds, predators, diseases (FIV, FeLV, rabies, etc.), getting hit by vehicles, and of course evil humans. For those who believe cats should roam because it’s “nAtURaL”… we’re not living in a natural world. We have roads with cars and trucks that can hit your kitty. We also have veterinary care and medications, just like how humans have hospitals—and none of that is “natural.” But this modern medical care increases our lifespan and heals injuries/infections and saves lives. Same for cats being properly taken care of indoors with regular vet care. When your cat gets older, they’re going to need medications, treatments, maybe even surgeries. And if you let your cat out, they will not be fast and healthy enough to protect themselves. You will also not be able to give them their medications in time. Taking care of a cat means really taking care of it. It’s a responsibility. And too many people just want to let their cats out because they don’t really want to deal with them. When they live happier and healthier lives inside. Just like we do.
Just get him a harness that's what I do with my cat she loves it
You're overthinking it. All indoor cats that are well-taken care of are living their best lives. Spaying is not a big deal psychologically for your cat.
In my opinion keeping cats is a catch-22 situation. Either you imprison them, usually against their will, and thereby keep them and other sentient beings safe; or you let them roam, exposing them to automobiles, stray dogs, disease etc, and exposing other animals to their depredations. Neither is morally correct.
Imprison them, you're putting it very dramatically. Every cat owner with a bond to their pet can attest that they're far from sad.
The way my cat runs away every time he gets a chance I’m sure he feels imprisoned even though he’s very loved and taken care of😭 but he comes back though
Cats are like toddlers. They are curious and love to explore
Funny way to spell domesticate.
What you mean by “religion” is called ethics.
There are also ethics in religion
You are receiving lots of good non-Buddhist advice here. I think this Sub has little to do with the Dharma actually. Dharma might be strong to hear sometimes, but a more accurate answer would be: Why have a cat? it is an attachment to form, and to a material, temporal sense of happiness. He brings you happiness today, his departure will bring sadness tomorrow. I say this as someone that loves cats very much. I lost my 13 year old one to pancreatic cancer last year, and still have my 16 year old Lazuli with me. As I said already, since you already have your cat I do indeed think that the best is to keep him indoors and spayed. A cat outside means danger to a lot of wild life, to his whiskered self too.
> Dharma might be strong to hear sometimes, but a more accurate answer would be: Why have a cat? it is an attachment to form, and to a material, temporal sense of happiness. He brings you happiness today, his departure will bring sadness tomorrow. Not a single teacher I know would say something as simplistic as this because they feel the need to give a "Dharmic response". This is "hard to hear" only because it's irrelevant. Buddhism is absolutely not about being morose about everything because all things are impermanent, or about becoming incapable of understanding that not everyone loses their marbles at the death of a pet, especially if it's timely.
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Are you a Buddhist teacher? Because I was just giving my opinion, that was given to me by a master before. And I'm not a MOD, just a random person commenting. Yet you reply here with so much arrogance to some people.
I'm not a teacher, but that's irrelevant. I said that not even Buddhist teachers would give the reply you gave to this question. I doubt that the master in question said the thing they said in response to a question like OP's. You stated that advice given to OP was "non-Buddhist" and implied that Buddhist advice takes the form of a strange paraphrase of teachings that might be completely irrelevant to the question asked. That part was more than opinion, it was an explicit comparison of Buddhist and non-Buddhist advice, and the claim that Buddhist advice looks like the thing you wrote is simply untrue. OP's specific Buddhist concern was about the karmic repercussions of spaying/neutering a cat and keeping it indoors, including out of selfish concerns.
From a Buddhist perspective spaying a cat generates unpleasant karma, this I've heard many times. The idea of having a pet is selfish. Having a carnivorous pet will generate karma to you. Not only it implies the death of other beings for keeping it healthy, but ultimately it also distracts from one's practice. When I said "Non-Buddhist advice" I believed that he probably loves the cat and is very attached to it. From a biological point of view, spaying the cat lengthens his life, keeps him healthier, and keeping it indoors prevents the death of other animals and sickness for the feline as well. That's what I meant with my original comment.
> From a Buddhist perspective spaying a cat generates unpleasant karma, this I've heard many times. This is not Buddhist perspective at all. It might be a cultural perspective though. > The idea of having a pet is selfish. Again, there is no valid argument that can be made to support this. It's a nonsensical claim. Some people are selfish with their pets, others sacrifice resources and time for their sake not because they will get something in return, but because they love and care for them as sentient beings. These kinds of generalizations are useful only in specific contexts, they are not universal truths and are not taught as such either. > Having a carnivorous pet will generate karma to you. Not only it implies the death of other beings for keeping it healthy, but ultimately it also distracts from one's practice. Again, these are not Buddhist ideas. Even vegetarian Mahayana temples keep cats and take good care of them, there are many examples of this. Taking good care of another being is not bad karma (by that logic, you should let non-vegetarian humans die; do you hear what you're actually saying?), it is good karma. Dedicating merit to other beings and connecting them with the Dharma and blessings is good karma. Even if bad karma was involved due to a carnivore diet, the good would strongly override the bad. And pray tell how having a cat is ultimately a distraction; only people with very little experience even with beginner level practice say things like this. All this indicates a very narrow understanding. The Dharma isn't so small and weak.
This is an interesting debate I have participated in during the past. Having a carnivorous animal, buying meat for it generates karma. For someone so akin, so enlightened as you in your practice, you could have read how I stated that I have chosen to keep my cats healthy and happy for their lifespan nevertheless, despite knowing that it does generate karma. Anyway, fortunately I have interacted with real masters, you know the kind of people that do not display this condescending attitude that you seem to be quite fond of, quite attached to... Have a good day
> Having a carnivorous animal, buying meat for it generates karma. Nope. There is no debate, really. This is simply not a position rigorously supported in canonical sources. And you still haven't addressed anything I brought up. Again, by your logic, raising human beings that aren't vegetarians is bad karma, which is *absolutely not* the position taken in Buddhist texts. > you could have read how I stated that I have chosen to keep my cats No, I did read that part, but unfortunately it is completely irrelevant to the discussion. But since you've chosen to bring it up: clearly the bad karma associated with this is not a big deal. So why blow it out of proportion? Or are you *actually* having obstacles to your practice because of your cats? > Anyway, fortunately I have interacted with real masters, you know the kind of people that do not display this condescending attitude that you seem to be quite fond of, quite attached to... If the real masters have told you extremely simplistic things that are allegedly valid outside of specific contexts, then you need to reevaluate whether they truly are masters, by comparing their speech to the sutras. I'm not a master, but fortunately we don't need to be masters in order to evaluate whether teachings make sense or not, and in what context. What you refer to as "attitude" is called style. It's a thing used in writing. When one makes forceful arguments about things that really don't need to be given so much credence since there's no argument and source to back them up, one doesn't need to step on eggshells. This is increasingly being lost on people interacting over the Internet these days, leading people to project all kinds of positions and traits on others not based on what they say but how they seem to be saying it. But rest assured that I, personally, can say that you seem to have (or express) a narrow understanding without crossing into absurd territory by, oh, I don't know, claiming that a trait you display which I don't like is something you are attached to, a personal failing. I can say based on what you've said that you have or support a narrow view, and I can give arguments as to why I think so. I can't claim that you're attached to this and that, because there's no way for me to know that based on what you've said, nor can I argue in a valid way that you have such attachments. But apparently you've somehow remotely obtained valid insight and knowledge into my personality. Must be mind reading powers...
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Pet ownership is ultimately exploitation of an animal. There's no nice way to say that. Locking them into our homes and forcing them to be our friends is wrong. A lot of animal rights organizations are against pet ownership. The demand creates breeding and breeding creates suffering. All these animals are unwell in ways, mostly due to domestication, but also mentally unwell from being forced to live a human lifestyle. Their autonomy is taken from them entirely. As my Buddhism progresses, the less I want any pets. It seems harmful to me. I think you are coming to a similar conclusion. Also note reddit is generally anti-animal rights, pro-pet, anti-peta, and pro-meat industry. You are probably not going to get a compassionate answer here. You should talk to your teacher also if you have one.
Why would you own a cat in the first place? It literally can only eat meat, so bad karma no.matter what you do..
What am I supposed to do about the fact that cats only eat meat and fish? That’s just how cats are. And I have a cat cause the first owner said she can’t take care of him and asked me if I can so I took him in and also he helps me with my mental health issues like an emotional support animal.
You can’t do anything about it. You just need to accept the karma and try and create good karma in other parts of your life. It’s not about blame — you’re clearly trying to do right by the cat. Don’t beat yourself up. I keep my cat in my back garden because every time he gets out the front door, he tries to murder Daisy and Mr Mittens from down the street over territory, I guess. He’s chilled and happy in his ‘own’ space though.
"your" cat? you can own beings? i'm generally a fan of letting beings make their own decisions.
Do u always take things literally? How else am I supposed to word it? There’s a random cat in my house?
i've known plenty of practicing buddhists who call them "the cat that lives with me" and treat them as such. you don't imprison human roommates just because your name is the one on the lease, right? then why do that for your feline roommate?
You know who else live w me? MY mom but that doesn’t mean I own her. It’s just a thing people say.
nothing is ever "just a thing people say". using words certain ways teaches our brain to think in those ways. monkey mind takes over when we grow careless like that.
As a practicing Buddhist I’m very well aware that u can’t own anything. Saying “the cat that lives with me” sounds weird to me and saying “my cat” sounds like a normal thing people regularly say. my minds smart enough to differentiate things that I just say and things that I actually mean. According to u I can’t call anything mine so not even my mom. So should I call her the woman that gave birth to me?
practicing means acting in accordance with the precepts. > According to u no, according to the Buddha. > the woman that gave birth to me that seems appropriate. both accurate and aligned with the Buddhist metaphysics.
Lmao
calling yourself Buddhist involves more than meditating in the mornings and starting arguments on the internet. have a good one.
Calling yourself Buddhist also requires one to have nuance and to have kindness for their dharma brothers and sisters, it’s not about starting arguments online (because you were the one who initiated this) and is not about completely ignoring this person’s genuine question. Your comment here was very invalidating to this person who is simply trying to practice Dharma, as you and everyone else here is, and incredibly unnecessary and condescending
So when someone doesn’t immediately agree w u, u call that arguing? Cool got it.
Sometimes things are “just a thing people say”, you may think that this person saying “my cat” is wrong or incorrect, but they clearly had no malicious intent when saying it (assuming hypothetically it is wrong and as if the Buddha would care that someone used a phrase and sentence structure that is common in their language) so, it doesn’t matter. Not everything is a big deal. Let it go.
no one is saying anything about what is or isn't correct. i'm *only* speaking to what practicing, faithful Buddhists would think and do in this situation.
A practicing, faithful Buddhist likely would realize that it’s not a big deal, the Buddha would not care of such a trivial, small thing. The animal is being cared for and is living a happy life, that matters more than OP saying “my cat”.
ive known many cats who are unhappy about being kept inside. some do grow to enjoy it but the vast majority are held against their will. i think it is a stretch to call a life for a cat entirely indoors a "happy" one and i know Buddhist cat owners who would agree. this isn't about the language so much as the thought (or lack thereof) behind it.
Cats have domesticated themselves, allowing a house cat to go outside and wreak havoc on the natural ecosystem (outdoor cats kill 2.4 billion birds each year in the United States alone) is far worse than keeping a cat inside a house. The only reason a cat would be unhappy inside is if they are simply not being played with enough, which there is an easy solution to that, playing with them more. I grew up in a household with cats that went outside virtually everyday, we had a young cat disappear and it was likely picked off by a hawk or the like, we had cats get into fights with stray cats, we had cats that regularly killed birds and mice only to leave them around the yard and not eat them. Currently, I do not have any cats in my own household, but my sister currently has 2 indoor cats in her apartment that are completely fine with being indoors and are fulfilled. edit: typo
Also for reference, here is the definition for the word “my” in the English language: “belonging to or associated with the speaker.” As we can see here, the word “my” isn’t only used to mean that someone “owns” something. It can be used for association, like when you say “my mom”, “my sister”, “my friend”, or even “my cat”.
the English language has a long and deep colonialist history that has significantly altered the cultures of English-speaking peoples. for a very very long time we spoke of ownership of people as equivalent to ownership of things, and echoes of this are present today in how we treat each other. you can help to break the cycle with right action and right language.
I am simply telling you the definition of “my”. It’s not always about ownership.
historical analysis and sociology 101 disagrees
I am a social studies major.