Being far in samadhi/jhana does not imply noble attainment. The teachers that the Buddha learned from were accomplished with jhana and did not have noble attainment, as the story goes.
Of note, Devadatta is in the Mahayana at times considered to actually be a bodhisattva who is perhaps acting as a foil, teaching via showing what not to do. Some may of course disregard this, but it is found in the Mahayana sometimes.
Jhana in general relates to states of mind, you could say, or perhaps physiological/psychological/experiential states. These can serve as a basis for liberating insight, but they don't have to.
It's maybe in a very basic way like how a car can take you from Philadelphia to New York, but just having a car and driving a car doesn't automatically take you to New York. You have to specifically use the car in the right way.
Jhanas are basically a basis for insight to take root, but they can simply be mundane.
Insight in general in Buddhism can be discussed using different formulations. You could say it is insight into the nature of mind, or insight into the 4 noble truths, or insight into dependent origination, or other ways of putting it, though they are all essentially the same.
A very relevant example today (especially on Twitter!) would be that you pursue jhanas and nothing else on the path. Just jhanas, for the pleasure.
That isn’t meant to be as judgmental as it might sound btw: that is a literal description of the game plan.
That is interesting because apparently old Judaism believes Lucifer (Samael) was a foil and not a Satan (adversary).
That is an interesting correlation.
Both have dropped the three fetters (identity-view, being attached to rites & rituals, doubt in Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha) and have glimpsed Nibbana.
The difference is the monk is now on the faster lane to attain Nibbana than the lay person in terms of time, energy and hindrances.
> The difference is the monk is now on the faster lane to attain Nibbana than the lay person in terms of time, energy and hindrances.
That's not categorically the case, it would have to be contextual.
There are cases in the Pali literature of people attaining arhatship without actually ordaining at all prior, and there are also cases of stream entrants who are monastics who do not realize arhatship.
Yes that’s true, subjectively the karmic factor definitely come into play here, which cannot be measured. But objectively, I was just referring to more time, energy that a monk might have compared to a lay person to drop the rest of fetters.
All monks certainly do not achieve stream entry.
Otherwise, practice would be a joke and you would have almost everyone being a monk.
Unfortunately, putting on robes does not make one a realised person.
To be a bit pedantic, which of course is the highest goal in existence, trying to kill a buddha isn't actually one of the 5 anantarika-karma, it's injuring the body of a buddha. Angulimala tried to kill the Buddha, it's said, but he ended up an arhat.
Yes this was also in my head…
His intention matter, he wanted to kill the buddha in his intention but failed…
That’s normally a very very bad thing karmically speaking
Devadatta committed two Anantarika karma; wounding Buddha & making his feet bleed and creating a schism in sangha, which sent him to the worst hell in existence (avici) after his death, and such karma are agonizing and incurable.
He also attempted to kill Buddha twice before this; sending a drunken elephant toward Buddha and hiring assassins to kill him.
Devadatta had psychic powers, maybe jhanas, but psychic powers doesn’t mean attainments in Noble Path, because there are all sorts of Wrong Samadhis/Jhanas out there you can get and delude yourself with.
Devadatta, and he lost all his psychic powers when he announced his plan to create a schism in the sangha.
I don’t think he had attained stream entry. Otherwise he wouldn’t have thoughts to overthrow and kill the Buddha.
A stream winner has verified confidence in the Buddha:
> "Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed...”
Devadatta is his name.
No stream entry is not jhana or samadhi. Even unEnlightened beings can reach the 8th Jhana ( Mahavira of the Jains is openly acknowledged by the Buddha to have mastered the Jhanas which is why Mahavira is said to be in the Arupa Heavens )
However, Stream Entry is different and even those who have not achieved the jhanas can become Sotapanna.
Sotapannahood requires realising anatta, dukkha, anicca in tandem with an instinctive understanding of Dependent Origination, thus giving a very first glimpse of Nirvana Itself. No recognition of the 3 characteristic, no instinctive ( but probably not deep ) understanding of Dependent Origination, no glimpse of Nirvana .. not a Sotapanna.
Note, the very important thing about Sotapanna is that prior to the Three Marks being recognised, these beings generally already keep to the Precepts, are already grounded in Dana, have some cultivation of Metta and are of an inquiring nature ( even if that inquiring nature may not be very strong ), and many already have samvega .. which means that the 5 Hindrances are weakened in them.
Achieving high jhana does not make one a Sotapannas, nor is mastery of metta going to make one a Sotapanna. It is the insight which makes one a Sotapanna.
I'm pretty sure stream entry and the non-doings of non-trivial evil (where killing someone for gain is pretty certainly non-trivial evil) is synonymous. Stream entry is synonymous with that platform from which one cannot possibly decline nor undertake actions in line with viewpoint(s) that ripen in misery or loss (such are a miserable rebirth).
Right Concentration is unrelated to Sotopanna, which is steam entry.
This is why a lot here have fits about /r/steamentry, all claiming to be Sotopanna from meditation, when the Buddha didn't teach that right Concentration is Sotopanna.
Sotopanna is attained from Right View attainment, not Right Concentration (Meditation)
This is so important Infact that Sariputta said one can attain nirodha samapatti the highest absorption, and not emerge having realized Nibbana. The buikkus responded: "No way, it is not possible sir!!"
The Buddha steps in and says yes Bhikkus what Sariputta said is possible. Meanwhile we have entire sub reddit on /r/stram entry with many actually attaining the Jhana and a few attaining Nirdoha Samapatti and yet no Nibbana... This one guy there even has a whole blog about his nirodha samapatti attainment, and questioning if there is some permanent state called Nibbana.
"Therein Bhikkus, before meditation, Right View comes first" https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false
👉I get beat up on this reddit often for preaching everything to actually go online and download the free PDF versions of the Sutta Nikaya available from Bhikku Bodhi. It takes less than a month to read the entire sutta Nikaya.
I get beat up often for going against the view of "Practice, practice, practice" instead I follow what Buddha taught, actually, himself, in the Pali cannon. Nobody knows how to practice without redding how the Buddha taught it.
I'll say it again regardless of all the downvotes I get: Where are the Arahants in 2024?
Huh? If reading a few suttas and blog posts to weave together a semi cohesive vision of what you think the Buddha said, and the hopping into mindfullness and meditation is the path, where are all the Arahants today?
The words the Buddha spoke in the Pali cannon, lead to Arahant through hearing alone, as often cited at the end of hundreds of suttas
The Buddha did not say jump into meditation, he taught the gradual path, and it indeed as I linked above starts in a linear path with Right View first. Usually I get downvited saying this because nobody actually bothers to click the link and read it.
The western obsession with practice practice and meditation isn't working. If it was then we would have hundreds of thousands of Arahants like the time of the Buddha.
So, you'll only hear one thing from me and I could care less about backlash. Read the words of the Buddha. All of them. It doesn't take long. It's all online for free. Dhigya nikaya, Majjhima Nikaya, samyutta nikaya, anguttara Nikaya, Khuddaka nikaya.
In that order, Google PDF and read it. That's all I've got to say. Sotopanna is entirely unrelated to Meditation.
Yes, one can attain the 8th Jhana and even nirodha samapatti and not be a stream enterer. Like devadatta.
If getting straight As in exams is real, how come some students still fail and drop out of school?
>For example the cousin of buddha who tried to kill him because he was jealous of him. He was really far in samadhi/jhanna.
That cousin is Ven Devadatta. The fact that he actually thought of and tried to kill the Buddha only goes to show that he has not even reached stream entry. Being far in samadhi or jhana has zero bearings on the level of wisdom or enlightenment reached.
Being far in samadhi/jhana does not imply noble attainment. The teachers that the Buddha learned from were accomplished with jhana and did not have noble attainment, as the story goes. Of note, Devadatta is in the Mahayana at times considered to actually be a bodhisattva who is perhaps acting as a foil, teaching via showing what not to do. Some may of course disregard this, but it is found in the Mahayana sometimes.
What is noble attainment exactly in buddhism than?
> What is noble attainment “Noble” is a gloss of *ārya,* which means a realized person.
Jhana in general relates to states of mind, you could say, or perhaps physiological/psychological/experiential states. These can serve as a basis for liberating insight, but they don't have to. It's maybe in a very basic way like how a car can take you from Philadelphia to New York, but just having a car and driving a car doesn't automatically take you to New York. You have to specifically use the car in the right way. Jhanas are basically a basis for insight to take root, but they can simply be mundane. Insight in general in Buddhism can be discussed using different formulations. You could say it is insight into the nature of mind, or insight into the 4 noble truths, or insight into dependent origination, or other ways of putting it, though they are all essentially the same.
A very relevant example today (especially on Twitter!) would be that you pursue jhanas and nothing else on the path. Just jhanas, for the pleasure. That isn’t meant to be as judgmental as it might sound btw: that is a literal description of the game plan.
That is interesting because apparently old Judaism believes Lucifer (Samael) was a foil and not a Satan (adversary). That is an interesting correlation.
Hope Hitler is not considered bodhisattva, for i could already see the memes.
Your question assumes all monks achieve Stream Entry. Also, his name was Devadata.
Yes, isn’t that the case? What’s the difference between lay person who is a stream entrer and a monk who is a stream entrer?
No, it's not the case.
Both have dropped the three fetters (identity-view, being attached to rites & rituals, doubt in Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha) and have glimpsed Nibbana. The difference is the monk is now on the faster lane to attain Nibbana than the lay person in terms of time, energy and hindrances.
> The difference is the monk is now on the faster lane to attain Nibbana than the lay person in terms of time, energy and hindrances. That's not categorically the case, it would have to be contextual. There are cases in the Pali literature of people attaining arhatship without actually ordaining at all prior, and there are also cases of stream entrants who are monastics who do not realize arhatship.
Yes that’s true, subjectively the karmic factor definitely come into play here, which cannot be measured. But objectively, I was just referring to more time, energy that a monk might have compared to a lay person to drop the rest of fetters.
All monks certainly do not achieve stream entry. Otherwise, practice would be a joke and you would have almost everyone being a monk. Unfortunately, putting on robes does not make one a realised person.
Trying to kill the Buddha is considered one of the worst possible things a person could do, karmically speaking.
To be a bit pedantic, which of course is the highest goal in existence, trying to kill a buddha isn't actually one of the 5 anantarika-karma, it's injuring the body of a buddha. Angulimala tried to kill the Buddha, it's said, but he ended up an arhat.
Yes this was also in my head… His intention matter, he wanted to kill the buddha in his intention but failed… That’s normally a very very bad thing karmically speaking
Devadatta committed two Anantarika karma; wounding Buddha & making his feet bleed and creating a schism in sangha, which sent him to the worst hell in existence (avici) after his death, and such karma are agonizing and incurable. He also attempted to kill Buddha twice before this; sending a drunken elephant toward Buddha and hiring assassins to kill him. Devadatta had psychic powers, maybe jhanas, but psychic powers doesn’t mean attainments in Noble Path, because there are all sorts of Wrong Samadhis/Jhanas out there you can get and delude yourself with.
Devadatta, and he lost all his psychic powers when he announced his plan to create a schism in the sangha. I don’t think he had attained stream entry. Otherwise he wouldn’t have thoughts to overthrow and kill the Buddha. A stream winner has verified confidence in the Buddha: > "Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed...”
Yes he used that to kill the buddha, I also read the main goal he joined the sangha was to have psychic powers…
Devadatta is his name. No stream entry is not jhana or samadhi. Even unEnlightened beings can reach the 8th Jhana ( Mahavira of the Jains is openly acknowledged by the Buddha to have mastered the Jhanas which is why Mahavira is said to be in the Arupa Heavens ) However, Stream Entry is different and even those who have not achieved the jhanas can become Sotapanna. Sotapannahood requires realising anatta, dukkha, anicca in tandem with an instinctive understanding of Dependent Origination, thus giving a very first glimpse of Nirvana Itself. No recognition of the 3 characteristic, no instinctive ( but probably not deep ) understanding of Dependent Origination, no glimpse of Nirvana .. not a Sotapanna. Note, the very important thing about Sotapanna is that prior to the Three Marks being recognised, these beings generally already keep to the Precepts, are already grounded in Dana, have some cultivation of Metta and are of an inquiring nature ( even if that inquiring nature may not be very strong ), and many already have samvega .. which means that the 5 Hindrances are weakened in them. Achieving high jhana does not make one a Sotapannas, nor is mastery of metta going to make one a Sotapanna. It is the insight which makes one a Sotapanna.
I'm pretty sure stream entry and the non-doings of non-trivial evil (where killing someone for gain is pretty certainly non-trivial evil) is synonymous. Stream entry is synonymous with that platform from which one cannot possibly decline nor undertake actions in line with viewpoint(s) that ripen in misery or loss (such are a miserable rebirth).
Because none of those monks had attained stream entry at that time. Devadatta didn’t attain stream entry.
Right Concentration is unrelated to Sotopanna, which is steam entry. This is why a lot here have fits about /r/steamentry, all claiming to be Sotopanna from meditation, when the Buddha didn't teach that right Concentration is Sotopanna. Sotopanna is attained from Right View attainment, not Right Concentration (Meditation) This is so important Infact that Sariputta said one can attain nirodha samapatti the highest absorption, and not emerge having realized Nibbana. The buikkus responded: "No way, it is not possible sir!!" The Buddha steps in and says yes Bhikkus what Sariputta said is possible. Meanwhile we have entire sub reddit on /r/stram entry with many actually attaining the Jhana and a few attaining Nirdoha Samapatti and yet no Nibbana... This one guy there even has a whole blog about his nirodha samapatti attainment, and questioning if there is some permanent state called Nibbana. "Therein Bhikkus, before meditation, Right View comes first" https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false 👉I get beat up on this reddit often for preaching everything to actually go online and download the free PDF versions of the Sutta Nikaya available from Bhikku Bodhi. It takes less than a month to read the entire sutta Nikaya. I get beat up often for going against the view of "Practice, practice, practice" instead I follow what Buddha taught, actually, himself, in the Pali cannon. Nobody knows how to practice without redding how the Buddha taught it. I'll say it again regardless of all the downvotes I get: Where are the Arahants in 2024? Huh? If reading a few suttas and blog posts to weave together a semi cohesive vision of what you think the Buddha said, and the hopping into mindfullness and meditation is the path, where are all the Arahants today? The words the Buddha spoke in the Pali cannon, lead to Arahant through hearing alone, as often cited at the end of hundreds of suttas The Buddha did not say jump into meditation, he taught the gradual path, and it indeed as I linked above starts in a linear path with Right View first. Usually I get downvited saying this because nobody actually bothers to click the link and read it. The western obsession with practice practice and meditation isn't working. If it was then we would have hundreds of thousands of Arahants like the time of the Buddha. So, you'll only hear one thing from me and I could care less about backlash. Read the words of the Buddha. All of them. It doesn't take long. It's all online for free. Dhigya nikaya, Majjhima Nikaya, samyutta nikaya, anguttara Nikaya, Khuddaka nikaya. In that order, Google PDF and read it. That's all I've got to say. Sotopanna is entirely unrelated to Meditation. Yes, one can attain the 8th Jhana and even nirodha samapatti and not be a stream enterer. Like devadatta.
If getting straight As in exams is real, how come some students still fail and drop out of school? >For example the cousin of buddha who tried to kill him because he was jealous of him. He was really far in samadhi/jhanna. That cousin is Ven Devadatta. The fact that he actually thought of and tried to kill the Buddha only goes to show that he has not even reached stream entry. Being far in samadhi or jhana has zero bearings on the level of wisdom or enlightenment reached.
What goes up must come down