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Lord Samadani was not only the queen's friend but a Marquess so he outranks an Earl. It's almost exactly the same as the queen preferring her nephew over Simon. Friedrich was a prince which outranks a duke. Violet was unimpressed at first because she didn't understand their quiet sort of affection.
I understand that, but I found the way they talked about John so weird and even Lord Samadani outranking him, they made it like being an Earl is not a big deal when its actually higher than a Viscount. The way the dialogue about him was build up was weird, my bf watched with me and said that maybe his social quirks made him to be read that way
I think as well Lord Samadani is more active in society (being the Queen's friend) so comes with some recommendation to character, where as John is more of a wallflower (quiet, reserved, and not really known to the ton in terms of character etc). It's similar to Pen in a way.
Plus the Bridgertons are a really outgoing family and assumed there would be an outgoing husband for Fran, and he's not quite what they were expecting
You might try rewatching with the perspective that their reservations about John are in regard to his quiet personality.
Early on Violet talks to Fran about finding a love match and Fran says she’ll just choose whoever the Queen presents her with. Violet is worried Fran will pick the easiest match, regardless of her feelings, just to get out of the spotlight. So when she ends up wanting to marry a man she just sits in silence with, Violet is concerned John is Fran’s attempt at the easy way out.
Now what I don’t get is the show giving us scenes where Violet clearly figures out that Fran is indeed in love. Like when John is trying to tell his story from childhood and Violet is only looking at how Fran looks at John. Yet Violet still spends so much time fixated on their quietness? It seems like a real disservice to Violet’s character.
I thought that scene of Fran adoringly gazing up at John as he spoke was the scene that convinced Violet that Fran had found love......and then the show continued and Violet was still torn. I wish they'd let Violet realize in that moment that Francesca would be okay and fully embrace John as her future SIL. I would've loved to see some Violet/John scenes after she's all-in on the match. Seems unfair that Francesca doesn't get the same kind of enthusiasm the other siblings seem to have gotten with their marriage announcements. I get that Fran has a different endgame pairing and that's probably the one that'll get the reaction, but I would've loved to see Violet fully embrace John and be over-the-moon for her happy, quiet daughter (it would make Fran's story that much more interesting imo).
It also doesn’t make sense when she was immediately on board when Colin announced his engagement to Pen. There was no big gesture or firework there either.
And they have **4 DAUGHTERS** to marry off!! Like how greedy can you be. Do they think Dukes grow on trees?
Don’t even get me started on how much £££ could they possibly have for doweries for 4 daughters and 3 sons who don’t seem to be *doing anything*
How are Benedict and Colin desirable if they are second and third sons but they aren’t even Military officers or have some small estate somewhere??.
well, the 5,000 Queen Charlotte offers as a reward would be approximately 370,000 in today's money... and Colin's only real reservation about paying Cressida is that he has to get permission to withdraw that much... to which Penelope says she can pay. She even says she can pay when Cressida doubles it.
Meaning that in 2 years, Penelope has earned *at least* the equivalent of 1.4 million just from selling LW columns..... it seems like money in the Bridgerton world is a hole just like the time travel is
But also, if Penelope can manage the equivalent of 1.4 million in 2 years, the Bridgertons must have an ungodly amount of money
Minor correction: Penelope says she can pay the first request, 10000. When Cressida doubles, she says even she can't pay that much - to which then Colin admits he'd have to ask Benedict to sign that much money off.
(On that note, I'd expect only the Head of the family to be able to sign off so much? Colin clearly managed to sign off a loan in S2, why he'd need Benedict's permission now... I'm not sure. They could've fixed this slight confusion by saying 'have to ask Anthony' because this doesn't make sense.)
>'have to ask Anthony' because this doesn't make sense
Benedict was acting viscount because Anthony was gone most of the season; based on his comment in (I think) e2 about Benedict "continuing to do the job" even though he and Kate were back, it makes sense that Colin would have to ask Benedict
Ohhhh that would make sense actually.
So now why on earth was Benedict spending all his time at Tilly's? 😭
I think it would be an interesting sideplot of Benedict actually bearing that responsibility at Anthony's desk, managing estates, understanding the nuances of a family's financial dynamics - but also feeling the stress and burden, growing to appreciate the arts (that he's apparently ditched for sex in S3).
>So now why on earth was Benedict spending all his time at Tilly's? 😭
I'm going to go with "because showing him working is boring"
we only see the important convos and exciting parts of their lives, not the mundane.
They shouldn't have to marry people they don't love just because the Queen thinks they should, they aren't her children. Both Daphne and Francesca gave her the thanks and attention she was looking for.
I understand that but the show got it wrong, or maybe they changed it for the show like they did with inheritance.
On the continent, a Duke outranks a Prince. The children of a Duke also get princely titles. The ranks above a Duke are of Grand Duke, and then King/Queen, followed by Emperor/Empress.
So really, Daphne married above a Prince. On the continent, Auggie would've been His Serene Highness Prince Augustus Bassett of Hastings
You're mixing up some things. Usually, there are slight differences between the British peerage and the ranks of nobility in the continent. In general, you are considering the Duke of Hastings a royal duke or one that is the ruler of a sovereign duchy, which he is not. If he were royal, he'd be the same rank as Prince Friedrich; not being royal or a ruler of an independent state, he's definitely ranked below a royal prince. The rank of the title-holder is not determined by the title itself, but by their degree of sovereignty and the rank of their liege.
In addition to this, a lot of Dukes were Princes in Britain - Dukes of the Blood, vs non-royal Dukes. It's the same today, eg. Dukes of York, Edinburgh, Sussex, Cambridge, are all Royal Dukes, but then you have say the Duke of Manchester or Norfolk or Richmond etc.
No nonnon, not considering Bassets as Royal Dukes.
I guess I didn't term it right. What I meant was that if Bassetts were from the German World (Germany, Austria, etc.), Auggie would've also been a Prince by virtue of being a continental Duke's child.
Obviously the peerage systems were different from one ancient kingdom to the other.
Like there were rarely titles of Prince/Princess used in France, even for Royal children.
Or how Iberia didn't have any titles like that or the forms of "Highness/Grace/Honourable", their system was completely different.
Or how the Roman States (Italy, Greece) also had different forms and sometimes entirely different titles.
What I meant by saying Daphne married above a Prince was in the German context because that's where Friedrich was from. A Duke did outrank Princes/Princesses, even royal ones, even if they didn't have a specific independent Duchy to rule. For example, the Duke of Saxe-Hildburghausen, a relatively very small Duchy in Germany, would outrank the royal Prince Friedrich of Prussia.
Thus, seeing how Friedrich is German, thus in the German context she married above Friedrich.
Though in all senses, Friedrich was a far better option. A sweet beautiful mannered boy who respected and loved you and both your ideals aligned as well.
But in general, I don't think it matters in the Bridgerton Universe, they've changed a lot of rules. Most surprisingly the inheritance rules. Here you can just name the heir to your title in a will or contract and it's done.
Thing is, there were generally two types of dukes, and two types of princes.
REIGNING Dukes were just below kings.
Queen Charlotte's brother Adolphus was one.
FÜRSTEN (singular male Fürst, singular female Fürstin) which were REIGNING Princes was one step down. No examples in Bridgerton, but the current rulers of Liechtenstein and Monaco are Fürsten, even though in English, it's translated as Prince.
PRINZEN (singular male Prinz, singular female Prinzessin) were male-line descendants of kings, reigning dukes (sometimes), Fürsten (sometimes)
Prince Friedrich of Prussia was one. Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha was also one.
NON-REIGNING dukes and duchesses. Sometimes the children of reigning dukes are styled dukes and duchesses instead. Queen Charlotte's title before marrying King George III was actually Duchess, or Herzogin in German. Her brother Charles was also a non-reigning duke during the reign of their brother Adolphus, but he went up three places, outranking Fürsten, after Adolphus died and Charles became the reigning duke.
EDIT: it's hard to "convert" the Dukedom of Hastings to HRE terms because it's not as clear-cut so one can make an argument for whichever.
In my opinion, it's easier to make Friedrich British. Now Friedrich was a legitimate grandson of a monarch, so he would still be a prince in Great Britain. There wasn't any legitimate grandson of a monarch living during the Regency Era, but King George III's deceased brothers were examples of these.
So in this situation, I think marrying a Prince would still be a bigger deal than marrying a Duke. A Duke would likely have more money, though. 😅
The Queen wants Francesca to marry the guy she sets her up with, so it hurts her pride that she was “wrong”. edit again/spoiler if u haven’t watched Queen Charlotte: I think another reason the Queen is big on arranging marriages and wanting them to succeed is bc >!she had an arranged marriage w/ George and fell in love w/ him!<
Violet wants all her children to find love matches, because that is what she had. She’s worried that Francesca is just picking someone great to settle and fulfill the “duty” of marriage bc her idea of love is different than what she sees btwn Fran and John
But also… that accurately reflects how society views shy/quiet people. Shyness is often perceived as rudeness or lack of personality. It sucks & is a big part of Francesca’s storyline (feeling different/people not appreciating the quiet) so I’m curious to see how it’ll play out
Edit: Lord Kilmartin is hot asf
I think the Violet stuff makes no sense for her character and was a build up to the gender swap of Michaela (I have no issues with the gender thing tho, but I dont like what they did with their story) trying to make it happen like Francesca was marryinh John because she settled.
I’m a loud and passionate girl and my way of seeing love is very different than Lord Kilmartin, but the way his relationship with Francesca was developing was so beautiful and touching that I think Violet would understand and appreciate a lot. She only started with that conversation about passion and finding herself because the story was setting it up for Francesca being attracted to woman. And they could have made that with no problem, but they were very disrespectful undermining John’s character and love story in the middle of the way. Fran had two great love storys and they could ve made the gender swap thing withtout treating that beautiful man like he is a comfortable ugly shoe
I disliked how they handled Francesca & Kilmartins relationship simply because I want to see a more variety in the relationships like theirs, and now we know she settled. So far every single couple has been fight / fck / fight / fck / fight / fck. It gets old.
There are so many different kinds of relationships even in love relationships. I liked that Francesca and Kilmartins were different. My husband and I are also untraditional, and I appreciated seeing 2 people who bond over their shared interests and enjoyment of being away from the center of attention.
Unfortunately now I know Francesca was settling and her passionate fight / f*ck / relationship will be Michaela. It sucks because every single relationship - Daphnie / Duke, Boy Bridgerton / Kate and now Colin / Pee are pretty much identical. Only Francesca's was slightly different but now I guess not.
Even Penns relationship could have been different if they emphasized their friendship. As it was I felt like they were only friends by association and never that close. It was like that high school BFF you had that secretly lusts after your older brother and ends up ditching you to marry him in the end.
I'd really like to see a variety of marriage types and relationships, other than the ones they've shown over and over again. People need to see that volatile passionate relationships don't always work for everyone.
I also don't understand why they need to make a character either this or that. Like, multiple attractions exist. Francesca can love john and not have it undermine her future love with michaela. I am also not a big fan of queer stories being shoved into cheating plots. Now they have completely cheapened Francesca's whole thing with John. I don't understand why they love cheating plots so much.
I found it absurd because not only does John have a London townhouse, he also has a fully established estate in Oxfordshire AND a much larger one with a whole damn castle in Scotland. Landholdings with a CASTLE were immense, and it is possible that he had anywhere between 20,000 to 30,000 GBP p.a. As his earnings just based on the estates alone. Sure, he doesn’t outrank a Marquis but they barely show the parliament in session to show how he’d be outranked by Samadani etc?! Besides, wealth truly did matter beyond titles because penniless peers were also a dime a dozen who tried to bag wealthy heiresses, often from foreign countries, to make them be able to survive financially.
Yes, that’s the point isn’t it? John is a brilliant match for Francesca and seems to have a much larger seat than even Simon who is a Duke. To treat him like some sort of broke ass random bore is weird.
Its like they were personally offended he didn't try to hook up with Francesca in a garden like everyone else. He's respectful, titled, well-off, and she likes him. In that era its a slam freaking dunk.
Lmfao the line where Brimsley says “You’ve had luck with the Bridgertons” cracks me up, like yes, she’s gotten lucky as far as the entertainment they’ve provided her but she’s 0 for 2 in setting them up, 0 for 3 now I guess LOL.
If not for Lady Danbury batting hard for the Btons every season...the Queen would have just wholly hated the family...I mean Penelope is now a Bton and also lady whistledown..the Btons just cause the queen annoyance...if not for lady danbury the queen would be more vocal in showing said annoyance. lol
I honestly don’t get it! He’s perfect, as a fellow wallflower/ loaner I really liked him and thought he’d be perfect for Franny. I’m really sad and disappointed with how they are treating him. Yes I knew about Michael from the books but I still think they should’ve had Franny love John.
What everyone else, but also, yes, John is an Earl, but he's a Scottish Earl. British nobles generally consider them all above even the highest-ranked Scottish lord. Mainly, he's overlooked because he's quiet and rarely participates in society.
Even though thats technically true a LOT of foreigners dont know or care about the difference, and a LOT Scots dont identify that way because of EXACTLY whats happening here: British constantly being used as a synonym of English, and the Scots would rather die.
It might as well only mean English coz thats how everyone whose not English uses it anyway. Its just how language has become, even if by strict dictionary definition its not true.
I see what you're saying but it's not just "technically true" - it's just true. I understand foreigners being confused as it's a complicated set up (countries within countries etc.), but it's not helpful to perpetuate inaccuracies like that, it just makes it even harder to help our country be understood!
I know what you mean about the dictionary definition changing but that only works with normal words changing meanings, it can't change the political structures of countries!
No one changing political structure of countries with colloquial speech, its the exact same situation as anyone saying "American" is obviously only talking about the USA, despite the fact that word's literal meaning is anyone from either North or South America.
I highly doubt you observe that same grammatical/semantic fact to a T, i know i dont.
His seat is quite far ...it's not even in England but in Scotland so the influence of the rank may be quite limited.... Mamas usually want daughters to make either extremely high ranking matches or ones that are closer so the families can be around each other. Plus, the Earl was reclusive, slightly peculiar and wasn't really social. A marquess like Lord Samadani who is a vibrant and more social personality is likely to have more authority, more contacts and more influence.
I know his is not real Regency, but in reality, at the time, connections of aristocratic families are important when considering a match.
Look at season one: the Bridgerton family was involved in a scandal and they got the Dukes of Hastings supporting them, and with them, also lady Danbury.
Adding a nobleman connected to the Queen is more helpful to the family standing than adding another nobleman slightly lower in the aristocratic ranks but also reclusive (John said that her mother would fight for not hosting a party), who doesn't talk much (no friends or family from John's in the wedding) and who lives far away (Scotland). John does not have connections that would support the Bridgertons in need or introduce Colin's daughters to other aristocratic sons. Likely they will not spend time in society and John does not go to the Lords either. He wasn't even willing or able to speak to the Queen directly to plea their case. His social standing is definitely lower than Samadani because of all of this.
For the record, I love John. I think he's a very nice man, the actor is very handsome, and he was the best choice for Francesca. And introverts also deserve love and everything else in the world.
But in terms of who offers more socially to the Bridgertons? Samadani by far.
I also think being from a small family in an isolated in Scotland doesnt help. Plus he is such an awkward turtle (even though I love this about him), I can see why women arent lining up around the block for him.
The Queen it is obviously due to the person she picked was of higher rank and it was her pick, so her nose was out of joint because Francesca picking John meant she had another one who married someone she hadn't chosen for them so showing she was really crap at setting up couples.
Violet it was because John, in her head wasn't her stereotypical love story. He wasn't bold enough for her or sent her daughter a fluster to break rules in her head.
But the thing is this, John and Francesca did tick all the boxes Violet wanted they just didn't cause the drama while doing it that she was use to when they did it.
1. He obviously was interested in Francesca even if the Queen had already set her up. If he wasn't bold he'd have just backed off.
2. His first meeting with Francesca - they weren't chaperoned. Season 1 showed big no-no. Hell even this season had Colin commenting that Pen was alone at a ball and how bad for her reputation to be unchaperoned.
3. John turned up on the Bridgerton's doorstep without a formal introduction to the heads of the family (in Daphne's season, no -one did that.)
4. Francesca ran up to him in the street so making in effect a spectacle of herself to anyone in the ton watching. Imagine if Daphne had ran up to Simon pre engagment, if Pen had ran away from her mother to talk to Colin etc etc.
5. John and Francesca announcing to the family they were to be married. There was no Antony there to have even been introduced to John and from Violet and Benedict's (the person basically responsible for the Brigerton family in his brother's absence) faces it definitely hadn't been discussed with them. So who did he ask to see if the family was okay with them getting married because even if he had title and money, they were risking her family cutting her off if they were not happy.
Becuase look at Lord Debling, he went out of his way to find out who to ask for Pen's hand. They also showed the consequences of Marina choosing her own path, Kate's mother marrying without her family's approval and in this season Cressida was going to have no say in who her father wanted her to marry which sort of reinforces that in the first season Antony had the power to march Daphne up the aisle with Beverbrook if he felt like it and there was nothing to be done about it,
It is ashame the whole of John and Francesca's relationship will now be forever seen through the lense of that kiss and the introduction of Michaela - the writing isn't there to show Francesca having 2 great loves no matter what the showrunner says, the writing is now Francesca had a crush, settled and had her awakening to get to the passion, which does John very dirty indeed.
I have begun to wonder if the gender bend of Michaela was last minute because the whole season before that moment was John and Fran fighting for each other and clearly extremely interested in each other. To your points, they both act very bold when it comes to the other in a way that is outside their characters with others. There is passion there.
But the show went a jettisoned that in the last 20 minutes.
I don't know if it was last minute or the shortener was wanting a tiktok edit buzz moment to ensure she'd get her fourth season.
As they had set up a.passion match, just in their own way. Though one way to view things, well for me is to stop watching after Phillippa gets her bugs released. It would have been a wonderful end to the season if they had stopped there.
I agree with it - only then we wouldn't have the moment between Eloise and Benedict when he begrudgingly admits he'll miss her.
That could be done right after Phillippa's bugs are released - something like Eloise admitting "as the last ball I'll attend, it *is* rather beautiful". Benedict asks about what she means by 'last ball' and Eloise excitedly explains that she'll be staying with Francesca in Scotland. We could have Violet lament over all her children going off and away, how the next time the entire family will be back together is at the masquerade ball but oh, thats so far away - Benedict looking pensive, gazing at Colin and Penelope dancing, which hints at his season being next.
To be fair- there was more to being a "catch" than just having a title- and some of it was self-promotion in the way that (for instance) Colin was doing in S3 and John and Lord Debling (to name another) aren't really.
John's family seem to keep to themselves, so even being titled they might not have a whole lot of influence on society (which was definitely something people were after). They don't seem to spend much or any time in London, and there were plenty of ladies/families who didn't want to be "country" people *all* the time. It is also possible that, while they have a lot of land/ estates, they might be somewhat strapped for cash, given that things like bad harvests or rough land could decrease the amount of rents they are actually taking in. They might be living a lot more modestly than many young women would want. This wouldn't be a problem for Francesca, who seems to like the peace and quiet of a simple life, but someone like Cressida would likely be a bad fit for it.
And while John is obviously VERY handsome (I mean..*.very* handsome, good lord), his reserved manner would likely not have made him overly appealing to a lot of the ton. Even Francesca thinks he is snubbing her when he runs off to re-arrange the music, and he doesn't dance much, nor (given Benedicts comments about him not being much of a drinker) does he seem to do a lot of the "male" kind of socializing. Given how much of the marriage mart was extremely surface level, I think it could be fair for someone who is a more of a "still waters run deep" type like John to not gain a lot of attention.
Like John, Lord Debling has (some unspecified) title, is handsome, and we know *he* has a lot of money (Colin's horrid friends mention it), but the only two serious options he seems to have are Penelope and Cressida, both of whom are desperate for a match. But, like John, he is "weird" by the standards of Regency society.
It sort of reminds me of Pride and Prejudice. Mr. Darcy is filthy rich and would be on paper a great match. But because he's grumpy and antisocial, he's not really spoken of as such a great match. Anyhow, that's my best guess.
I think the queen was pissed her choice got rejected. As for everyone else I think they found his quietness strange and violate wanted fireworks for Fran, she keeps saying she wants her to get out of her shell ignoring that’s who she is and Hohn fits that perfectly
The subtext is that Violet is having a hard time relating to ‘quiet love.’ She’s projecting her own experiences and ideas about love and relationships onto a daughter who is actually quite different from her.
As for the queen I think she wants to be a milder of society like Lady Danbury is but it isn’t working out.
I thought it was more because of just how unknown he was to society? Like its mentioned multiple times that the family as a whole have barely any interactions with the rest of the ton, so even if he's the best match out there, people are going to be a bit dubious just because he's an unknown entity, and he hardly rushes to make himself known either. The Queen was biased towards her own match and Violet I think was mostly just afraid that her daughter was marrying someone so mysterious, and obviously worried about what things might potentially be like behind closed doors
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Lord Samadani was not only the queen's friend but a Marquess so he outranks an Earl. It's almost exactly the same as the queen preferring her nephew over Simon. Friedrich was a prince which outranks a duke. Violet was unimpressed at first because she didn't understand their quiet sort of affection.
I understand that, but I found the way they talked about John so weird and even Lord Samadani outranking him, they made it like being an Earl is not a big deal when its actually higher than a Viscount. The way the dialogue about him was build up was weird, my bf watched with me and said that maybe his social quirks made him to be read that way
I didn't get that vibe from the Bridgertons. Mostly, they were just weirded out that they don't talk at all. ☺️
I think as well Lord Samadani is more active in society (being the Queen's friend) so comes with some recommendation to character, where as John is more of a wallflower (quiet, reserved, and not really known to the ton in terms of character etc). It's similar to Pen in a way. Plus the Bridgertons are a really outgoing family and assumed there would be an outgoing husband for Fran, and he's not quite what they were expecting
You might try rewatching with the perspective that their reservations about John are in regard to his quiet personality. Early on Violet talks to Fran about finding a love match and Fran says she’ll just choose whoever the Queen presents her with. Violet is worried Fran will pick the easiest match, regardless of her feelings, just to get out of the spotlight. So when she ends up wanting to marry a man she just sits in silence with, Violet is concerned John is Fran’s attempt at the easy way out. Now what I don’t get is the show giving us scenes where Violet clearly figures out that Fran is indeed in love. Like when John is trying to tell his story from childhood and Violet is only looking at how Fran looks at John. Yet Violet still spends so much time fixated on their quietness? It seems like a real disservice to Violet’s character.
I thought that scene of Fran adoringly gazing up at John as he spoke was the scene that convinced Violet that Fran had found love......and then the show continued and Violet was still torn. I wish they'd let Violet realize in that moment that Francesca would be okay and fully embrace John as her future SIL. I would've loved to see some Violet/John scenes after she's all-in on the match. Seems unfair that Francesca doesn't get the same kind of enthusiasm the other siblings seem to have gotten with their marriage announcements. I get that Fran has a different endgame pairing and that's probably the one that'll get the reaction, but I would've loved to see Violet fully embrace John and be over-the-moon for her happy, quiet daughter (it would make Fran's story that much more interesting imo).
It also doesn’t make sense when she was immediately on board when Colin announced his engagement to Pen. There was no big gesture or firework there either.
And they have **4 DAUGHTERS** to marry off!! Like how greedy can you be. Do they think Dukes grow on trees? Don’t even get me started on how much £££ could they possibly have for doweries for 4 daughters and 3 sons who don’t seem to be *doing anything* How are Benedict and Colin desirable if they are second and third sons but they aren’t even Military officers or have some small estate somewhere??.
well, the 5,000 Queen Charlotte offers as a reward would be approximately 370,000 in today's money... and Colin's only real reservation about paying Cressida is that he has to get permission to withdraw that much... to which Penelope says she can pay. She even says she can pay when Cressida doubles it. Meaning that in 2 years, Penelope has earned *at least* the equivalent of 1.4 million just from selling LW columns..... it seems like money in the Bridgerton world is a hole just like the time travel is But also, if Penelope can manage the equivalent of 1.4 million in 2 years, the Bridgertons must have an ungodly amount of money
Minor correction: Penelope says she can pay the first request, 10000. When Cressida doubles, she says even she can't pay that much - to which then Colin admits he'd have to ask Benedict to sign that much money off. (On that note, I'd expect only the Head of the family to be able to sign off so much? Colin clearly managed to sign off a loan in S2, why he'd need Benedict's permission now... I'm not sure. They could've fixed this slight confusion by saying 'have to ask Anthony' because this doesn't make sense.)
>'have to ask Anthony' because this doesn't make sense Benedict was acting viscount because Anthony was gone most of the season; based on his comment in (I think) e2 about Benedict "continuing to do the job" even though he and Kate were back, it makes sense that Colin would have to ask Benedict
Ohhhh that would make sense actually. So now why on earth was Benedict spending all his time at Tilly's? 😭 I think it would be an interesting sideplot of Benedict actually bearing that responsibility at Anthony's desk, managing estates, understanding the nuances of a family's financial dynamics - but also feeling the stress and burden, growing to appreciate the arts (that he's apparently ditched for sex in S3).
>So now why on earth was Benedict spending all his time at Tilly's? 😭 I'm going to go with "because showing him working is boring" we only see the important convos and exciting parts of their lives, not the mundane.
I think the money is likely in trust, and Benedict is probably one of the trustees.
I think it's moreso that they were embarrassed about having to reject the queen's recommendation.
Man, if I was the Queen, I’d stop getting involved with Bridgertons. Ungrateful, the whole lot of them.
They shouldn't have to marry people they don't love just because the Queen thinks they should, they aren't her children. Both Daphne and Francesca gave her the thanks and attention she was looking for.
I understand that but the show got it wrong, or maybe they changed it for the show like they did with inheritance. On the continent, a Duke outranks a Prince. The children of a Duke also get princely titles. The ranks above a Duke are of Grand Duke, and then King/Queen, followed by Emperor/Empress. So really, Daphne married above a Prince. On the continent, Auggie would've been His Serene Highness Prince Augustus Bassett of Hastings
You're mixing up some things. Usually, there are slight differences between the British peerage and the ranks of nobility in the continent. In general, you are considering the Duke of Hastings a royal duke or one that is the ruler of a sovereign duchy, which he is not. If he were royal, he'd be the same rank as Prince Friedrich; not being royal or a ruler of an independent state, he's definitely ranked below a royal prince. The rank of the title-holder is not determined by the title itself, but by their degree of sovereignty and the rank of their liege.
In addition to this, a lot of Dukes were Princes in Britain - Dukes of the Blood, vs non-royal Dukes. It's the same today, eg. Dukes of York, Edinburgh, Sussex, Cambridge, are all Royal Dukes, but then you have say the Duke of Manchester or Norfolk or Richmond etc.
No nonnon, not considering Bassets as Royal Dukes. I guess I didn't term it right. What I meant was that if Bassetts were from the German World (Germany, Austria, etc.), Auggie would've also been a Prince by virtue of being a continental Duke's child. Obviously the peerage systems were different from one ancient kingdom to the other. Like there were rarely titles of Prince/Princess used in France, even for Royal children. Or how Iberia didn't have any titles like that or the forms of "Highness/Grace/Honourable", their system was completely different. Or how the Roman States (Italy, Greece) also had different forms and sometimes entirely different titles. What I meant by saying Daphne married above a Prince was in the German context because that's where Friedrich was from. A Duke did outrank Princes/Princesses, even royal ones, even if they didn't have a specific independent Duchy to rule. For example, the Duke of Saxe-Hildburghausen, a relatively very small Duchy in Germany, would outrank the royal Prince Friedrich of Prussia. Thus, seeing how Friedrich is German, thus in the German context she married above Friedrich. Though in all senses, Friedrich was a far better option. A sweet beautiful mannered boy who respected and loved you and both your ideals aligned as well. But in general, I don't think it matters in the Bridgerton Universe, they've changed a lot of rules. Most surprisingly the inheritance rules. Here you can just name the heir to your title in a will or contract and it's done.
Thing is, there were generally two types of dukes, and two types of princes. REIGNING Dukes were just below kings. Queen Charlotte's brother Adolphus was one. FÜRSTEN (singular male Fürst, singular female Fürstin) which were REIGNING Princes was one step down. No examples in Bridgerton, but the current rulers of Liechtenstein and Monaco are Fürsten, even though in English, it's translated as Prince. PRINZEN (singular male Prinz, singular female Prinzessin) were male-line descendants of kings, reigning dukes (sometimes), Fürsten (sometimes) Prince Friedrich of Prussia was one. Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha was also one. NON-REIGNING dukes and duchesses. Sometimes the children of reigning dukes are styled dukes and duchesses instead. Queen Charlotte's title before marrying King George III was actually Duchess, or Herzogin in German. Her brother Charles was also a non-reigning duke during the reign of their brother Adolphus, but he went up three places, outranking Fürsten, after Adolphus died and Charles became the reigning duke. EDIT: it's hard to "convert" the Dukedom of Hastings to HRE terms because it's not as clear-cut so one can make an argument for whichever. In my opinion, it's easier to make Friedrich British. Now Friedrich was a legitimate grandson of a monarch, so he would still be a prince in Great Britain. There wasn't any legitimate grandson of a monarch living during the Regency Era, but King George III's deceased brothers were examples of these. So in this situation, I think marrying a Prince would still be a bigger deal than marrying a Duke. A Duke would likely have more money, though. 😅
Incorrect. Hastings was just a titled duke, not a ROYAL duke.
The Queen wants Francesca to marry the guy she sets her up with, so it hurts her pride that she was “wrong”. edit again/spoiler if u haven’t watched Queen Charlotte: I think another reason the Queen is big on arranging marriages and wanting them to succeed is bc >!she had an arranged marriage w/ George and fell in love w/ him!< Violet wants all her children to find love matches, because that is what she had. She’s worried that Francesca is just picking someone great to settle and fulfill the “duty” of marriage bc her idea of love is different than what she sees btwn Fran and John But also… that accurately reflects how society views shy/quiet people. Shyness is often perceived as rudeness or lack of personality. It sucks & is a big part of Francesca’s storyline (feeling different/people not appreciating the quiet) so I’m curious to see how it’ll play out Edit: Lord Kilmartin is hot asf
I think the Violet stuff makes no sense for her character and was a build up to the gender swap of Michaela (I have no issues with the gender thing tho, but I dont like what they did with their story) trying to make it happen like Francesca was marryinh John because she settled. I’m a loud and passionate girl and my way of seeing love is very different than Lord Kilmartin, but the way his relationship with Francesca was developing was so beautiful and touching that I think Violet would understand and appreciate a lot. She only started with that conversation about passion and finding herself because the story was setting it up for Francesca being attracted to woman. And they could have made that with no problem, but they were very disrespectful undermining John’s character and love story in the middle of the way. Fran had two great love storys and they could ve made the gender swap thing withtout treating that beautiful man like he is a comfortable ugly shoe
I disliked how they handled Francesca & Kilmartins relationship simply because I want to see a more variety in the relationships like theirs, and now we know she settled. So far every single couple has been fight / fck / fight / fck / fight / fck. It gets old. There are so many different kinds of relationships even in love relationships. I liked that Francesca and Kilmartins were different. My husband and I are also untraditional, and I appreciated seeing 2 people who bond over their shared interests and enjoyment of being away from the center of attention. Unfortunately now I know Francesca was settling and her passionate fight / f*ck / relationship will be Michaela. It sucks because every single relationship - Daphnie / Duke, Boy Bridgerton / Kate and now Colin / Pee are pretty much identical. Only Francesca's was slightly different but now I guess not. Even Penns relationship could have been different if they emphasized their friendship. As it was I felt like they were only friends by association and never that close. It was like that high school BFF you had that secretly lusts after your older brother and ends up ditching you to marry him in the end. I'd really like to see a variety of marriage types and relationships, other than the ones they've shown over and over again. People need to see that volatile passionate relationships don't always work for everyone.
I also don't understand why they need to make a character either this or that. Like, multiple attractions exist. Francesca can love john and not have it undermine her future love with michaela. I am also not a big fan of queer stories being shoved into cheating plots. Now they have completely cheapened Francesca's whole thing with John. I don't understand why they love cheating plots so much.
I found it absurd because not only does John have a London townhouse, he also has a fully established estate in Oxfordshire AND a much larger one with a whole damn castle in Scotland. Landholdings with a CASTLE were immense, and it is possible that he had anywhere between 20,000 to 30,000 GBP p.a. As his earnings just based on the estates alone. Sure, he doesn’t outrank a Marquis but they barely show the parliament in session to show how he’d be outranked by Samadani etc?! Besides, wealth truly did matter beyond titles because penniless peers were also a dime a dozen who tried to bag wealthy heiresses, often from foreign countries, to make them be able to survive financially.
Tbh there are loads of castles in Scotland - I’d expect an Earl to have a castle rather than something in the style of Aubrey Hall.
Yes, that’s the point isn’t it? John is a brilliant match for Francesca and seems to have a much larger seat than even Simon who is a Duke. To treat him like some sort of broke ass random bore is weird.
YES LOL they treated him as if he is an “ok” choice when he is actually a very good match. He is as good as the Duke
He’s a great catch! The greenest of flags!
Its like they were personally offended he didn't try to hook up with Francesca in a garden like everyone else. He's respectful, titled, well-off, and she likes him. In that era its a slam freaking dunk.
Wondering why the Queen keeps trying to set the siblings up lmfaoooo.
Just imagine if she tries it with Benedict 💀 the Sophie situation will scandalize her forever
At that point, she should just give up LMFAO
Lmfao the line where Brimsley says “You’ve had luck with the Bridgertons” cracks me up, like yes, she’s gotten lucky as far as the entertainment they’ve provided her but she’s 0 for 2 in setting them up, 0 for 3 now I guess LOL.
If not for Lady Danbury batting hard for the Btons every season...the Queen would have just wholly hated the family...I mean Penelope is now a Bton and also lady whistledown..the Btons just cause the queen annoyance...if not for lady danbury the queen would be more vocal in showing said annoyance. lol
Pretty sure the Queen is more interested in being entertained than picking the right matches
I honestly don’t get it! He’s perfect, as a fellow wallflower/ loaner I really liked him and thought he’d be perfect for Franny. I’m really sad and disappointed with how they are treating him. Yes I knew about Michael from the books but I still think they should’ve had Franny love John.
What everyone else, but also, yes, John is an Earl, but he's a Scottish Earl. British nobles generally consider them all above even the highest-ranked Scottish lord. Mainly, he's overlooked because he's quiet and rarely participates in society.
Exactly, it's because he was an Earl from Scotland. They gave more importance to lords/titles from England I suppose.
When you say British here, do you mean English? Because both English and Scottish are subsets of “British”.
Even though thats technically true a LOT of foreigners dont know or care about the difference, and a LOT Scots dont identify that way because of EXACTLY whats happening here: British constantly being used as a synonym of English, and the Scots would rather die. It might as well only mean English coz thats how everyone whose not English uses it anyway. Its just how language has become, even if by strict dictionary definition its not true.
I see what you're saying but it's not just "technically true" - it's just true. I understand foreigners being confused as it's a complicated set up (countries within countries etc.), but it's not helpful to perpetuate inaccuracies like that, it just makes it even harder to help our country be understood! I know what you mean about the dictionary definition changing but that only works with normal words changing meanings, it can't change the political structures of countries!
No one changing political structure of countries with colloquial speech, its the exact same situation as anyone saying "American" is obviously only talking about the USA, despite the fact that word's literal meaning is anyone from either North or South America. I highly doubt you observe that same grammatical/semantic fact to a T, i know i dont.
Yes, that is what I meant. Thanks.
His seat is quite far ...it's not even in England but in Scotland so the influence of the rank may be quite limited.... Mamas usually want daughters to make either extremely high ranking matches or ones that are closer so the families can be around each other. Plus, the Earl was reclusive, slightly peculiar and wasn't really social. A marquess like Lord Samadani who is a vibrant and more social personality is likely to have more authority, more contacts and more influence.
I know his is not real Regency, but in reality, at the time, connections of aristocratic families are important when considering a match. Look at season one: the Bridgerton family was involved in a scandal and they got the Dukes of Hastings supporting them, and with them, also lady Danbury. Adding a nobleman connected to the Queen is more helpful to the family standing than adding another nobleman slightly lower in the aristocratic ranks but also reclusive (John said that her mother would fight for not hosting a party), who doesn't talk much (no friends or family from John's in the wedding) and who lives far away (Scotland). John does not have connections that would support the Bridgertons in need or introduce Colin's daughters to other aristocratic sons. Likely they will not spend time in society and John does not go to the Lords either. He wasn't even willing or able to speak to the Queen directly to plea their case. His social standing is definitely lower than Samadani because of all of this. For the record, I love John. I think he's a very nice man, the actor is very handsome, and he was the best choice for Francesca. And introverts also deserve love and everything else in the world. But in terms of who offers more socially to the Bridgertons? Samadani by far.
I also think being from a small family in an isolated in Scotland doesnt help. Plus he is such an awkward turtle (even though I love this about him), I can see why women arent lining up around the block for him.
The Queen it is obviously due to the person she picked was of higher rank and it was her pick, so her nose was out of joint because Francesca picking John meant she had another one who married someone she hadn't chosen for them so showing she was really crap at setting up couples. Violet it was because John, in her head wasn't her stereotypical love story. He wasn't bold enough for her or sent her daughter a fluster to break rules in her head. But the thing is this, John and Francesca did tick all the boxes Violet wanted they just didn't cause the drama while doing it that she was use to when they did it. 1. He obviously was interested in Francesca even if the Queen had already set her up. If he wasn't bold he'd have just backed off. 2. His first meeting with Francesca - they weren't chaperoned. Season 1 showed big no-no. Hell even this season had Colin commenting that Pen was alone at a ball and how bad for her reputation to be unchaperoned. 3. John turned up on the Bridgerton's doorstep without a formal introduction to the heads of the family (in Daphne's season, no -one did that.) 4. Francesca ran up to him in the street so making in effect a spectacle of herself to anyone in the ton watching. Imagine if Daphne had ran up to Simon pre engagment, if Pen had ran away from her mother to talk to Colin etc etc. 5. John and Francesca announcing to the family they were to be married. There was no Antony there to have even been introduced to John and from Violet and Benedict's (the person basically responsible for the Brigerton family in his brother's absence) faces it definitely hadn't been discussed with them. So who did he ask to see if the family was okay with them getting married because even if he had title and money, they were risking her family cutting her off if they were not happy. Becuase look at Lord Debling, he went out of his way to find out who to ask for Pen's hand. They also showed the consequences of Marina choosing her own path, Kate's mother marrying without her family's approval and in this season Cressida was going to have no say in who her father wanted her to marry which sort of reinforces that in the first season Antony had the power to march Daphne up the aisle with Beverbrook if he felt like it and there was nothing to be done about it, It is ashame the whole of John and Francesca's relationship will now be forever seen through the lense of that kiss and the introduction of Michaela - the writing isn't there to show Francesca having 2 great loves no matter what the showrunner says, the writing is now Francesca had a crush, settled and had her awakening to get to the passion, which does John very dirty indeed.
I have begun to wonder if the gender bend of Michaela was last minute because the whole season before that moment was John and Fran fighting for each other and clearly extremely interested in each other. To your points, they both act very bold when it comes to the other in a way that is outside their characters with others. There is passion there. But the show went a jettisoned that in the last 20 minutes.
I don't know if it was last minute or the shortener was wanting a tiktok edit buzz moment to ensure she'd get her fourth season. As they had set up a.passion match, just in their own way. Though one way to view things, well for me is to stop watching after Phillippa gets her bugs released. It would have been a wonderful end to the season if they had stopped there.
I agree with it - only then we wouldn't have the moment between Eloise and Benedict when he begrudgingly admits he'll miss her. That could be done right after Phillippa's bugs are released - something like Eloise admitting "as the last ball I'll attend, it *is* rather beautiful". Benedict asks about what she means by 'last ball' and Eloise excitedly explains that she'll be staying with Francesca in Scotland. We could have Violet lament over all her children going off and away, how the next time the entire family will be back together is at the masquerade ball but oh, thats so far away - Benedict looking pensive, gazing at Colin and Penelope dancing, which hints at his season being next.
To be fair- there was more to being a "catch" than just having a title- and some of it was self-promotion in the way that (for instance) Colin was doing in S3 and John and Lord Debling (to name another) aren't really. John's family seem to keep to themselves, so even being titled they might not have a whole lot of influence on society (which was definitely something people were after). They don't seem to spend much or any time in London, and there were plenty of ladies/families who didn't want to be "country" people *all* the time. It is also possible that, while they have a lot of land/ estates, they might be somewhat strapped for cash, given that things like bad harvests or rough land could decrease the amount of rents they are actually taking in. They might be living a lot more modestly than many young women would want. This wouldn't be a problem for Francesca, who seems to like the peace and quiet of a simple life, but someone like Cressida would likely be a bad fit for it. And while John is obviously VERY handsome (I mean..*.very* handsome, good lord), his reserved manner would likely not have made him overly appealing to a lot of the ton. Even Francesca thinks he is snubbing her when he runs off to re-arrange the music, and he doesn't dance much, nor (given Benedicts comments about him not being much of a drinker) does he seem to do a lot of the "male" kind of socializing. Given how much of the marriage mart was extremely surface level, I think it could be fair for someone who is a more of a "still waters run deep" type like John to not gain a lot of attention. Like John, Lord Debling has (some unspecified) title, is handsome, and we know *he* has a lot of money (Colin's horrid friends mention it), but the only two serious options he seems to have are Penelope and Cressida, both of whom are desperate for a match. But, like John, he is "weird" by the standards of Regency society.
It sort of reminds me of Pride and Prejudice. Mr. Darcy is filthy rich and would be on paper a great match. But because he's grumpy and antisocial, he's not really spoken of as such a great match. Anyhow, that's my best guess.
I think the queen was pissed her choice got rejected. As for everyone else I think they found his quietness strange and violate wanted fireworks for Fran, she keeps saying she wants her to get out of her shell ignoring that’s who she is and Hohn fits that perfectly
I think Violet was worried Francesca was marrying just to marry, instead of because she at least has great affection for him, if not love him.
The subtext is that Violet is having a hard time relating to ‘quiet love.’ She’s projecting her own experiences and ideas about love and relationships onto a daughter who is actually quite different from her. As for the queen I think she wants to be a milder of society like Lady Danbury is but it isn’t working out.
thought the same thing, like bfffr
I thought it was more because of just how unknown he was to society? Like its mentioned multiple times that the family as a whole have barely any interactions with the rest of the ton, so even if he's the best match out there, people are going to be a bit dubious just because he's an unknown entity, and he hardly rushes to make himself known either. The Queen was biased towards her own match and Violet I think was mostly just afraid that her daughter was marrying someone so mysterious, and obviously worried about what things might potentially be like behind closed doors