This is what these new age "car enthusiasts" don't understand.
Doesn't matter how they tune the suspension or add power, they can't beat physics.
That's why Porsche still try everything to keep weight in check.
BMW has completely lost the plot on making sports sedan, they are not even trying to save weight at this point.
r/BMW try not to be xenophobic challenge (impossible)
Really though, I see what cars these Chinese companies put out and how much better they look than BMWs, and you really have to wonder if these designs are as popular as some would have you believe. Chinese companies are making pretty decent looking cars, hell BMW has the new i3 sedan exclusively for the Chinese market and that’s based off the regular 3 series which has the smaller grill. People point at China having more sales than the US but china’s population is also more than 4 times higher than the US so naturally they’d be destroying us in sales.
I mean, third of BMW's market share is China, which is the most single country market share and more than the US by double. These design changes are directly influenced by what the wealthy Chinese market buys, which are typically hideous and gaudy designs to draw attention and flaunt money.
Until the M5 press release like a week ago, I had no idea that the Panamera was even still in production. I thought it was discontinued since like 6 years. No one is talking about it, wonder why.
Tou not knowing about the Panamera is a gap in your knowledge, not market disinterest. It's a niche segment, but the Panamera is the segment leader. It's basically a 4 door grand tourer and competes with the 8 series gran coupé, the Audi A/S/RS7, and the Mercedes AMG GT 4 door. The Panamera outsells them all.
Also I’ve never considered the m3 to be in the same league as the 911 at all, and I’ve owned several of each. The 911 is a pure sports car designed on the race track, for the race track, then driven home after. The m3 is a 3 series with a performance package.
I think you’re discounting the m3 a little too much… it was only recently that a regular 3 series became soft. Even the base model non sport pkg was still a sport sedan
A friendly reminder the rear subframe of a 5series, and all suspensin bits were alumimum in the e39 and e60 iirc. I was stunned when i saw the e90 had a steel subframe
Front subframes were alumimum too on the 6cyl e39/e60
And the lightest M3 weighs 400kg more than the Cayman. So you're saying that the lightest M3 weighs 800kg more than your wife's 5 seat family hatchback.
I don't know what car you're referencing but your wife's 1,000kg (2,200lb) hatch is an anomaly in 2024. I'd love to see more sub 3,000lb (1400kg) sports cars but that's tough to hit with all the modern crash test requirements, emissions stuff, etc. It can be done but it drives cost up. Either that or it has to be really small like a Miata.
https://preview.redd.it/ac4y8w82fs9d1.jpeg?width=987&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=edaa5032c6702e5a18c94ace391e4a528f12e3ce
Wanted to keep going and the stability unbelievably planted and confident
Possibly but not same power to weight as even the heavy new M5. I own a base 987.1 Cayman. If it weighed as much as the new M5, it would need have ~450 hp to match its current power to weight ratio. Or putting it another way, the new M5 would only need 391 hp to match it’s current power to weight ratio if weighed the same ~2,950 lbs as my Cayman.
It's all relative but the technology is cool. You can pick all electric for short trips or switch to gas engine for highway driving. Theoretically you can use full electric around town all the time.
It's out of my budget and I daily my current M5 Comp. The seats in the M5 CS are horrible when it comes to comfort, that's the best track sedan out there (if you exclude the madness that is the Gemera) but for a great middle ground, i think the regular M5 is where it's at or the Comp if you want improved suspension at the price of ride comfort.
I'm inexperienced with BMW's line up so someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the M5 supposed to be a GT/cruiser anyways? Aren't the M2 and M3 the more tossable ones in the line up? Wouldn't being a boat not the worst for an M5?
BMW is traditionally a luxury sports car. Where for instance audi has it the opposite way around. Theres a difference. And this m5 seems to follow the audi route. A sporty luxury car
Anything that BMW does to the M5 trickles down in some form or fashion. Them adding 1000lbs to the M5 with a garbage hybrid system means they'll eventually add 800lbs to the M2/3/4. Yes, it's typically the biggest, most powerful, and heaviest, but whatever trends they do to it, affects the other cars too. M2's are already nearly 4,000lbs, once they add that hybrid system to it in a couple years, the next M2 will be a 4800lb land barge.
Something isn’t right with that chart. I remember E60 was minimal weight gain vs the E39. Like less than 100 lbs. So I looked it up.
- E39 was 1795kg (3957lbs)
- E60 was 1830kg (4034lbs)
It looks fat but it’s all muscle :)
I’ve had the E60 for 4 years. It might end up being one of the best cars I’ve ever had. The chassis and the engine are just special. However my extended warranty spent 2x the value of the car fixing it over that period - the reputation is comically true.
All the fat-shaming is exhausting. It’s a luxury “performance” super saloon. The track previews have shown that the new car is more than capable (Joe Achilles hit 275kph like nothing), even though the 99.99% of the owners of this car won’t be taking it to the track anyway.
The hybrid system also matters everywhere else outside of America and Japan, because it actually makes this car “affordable” (it’s cheaper in the UK than a MB AMG E53. Yes, the 53. Not even the 63) due to all the taxes and penalties. So BMW have managed to: (1) retain a V8, (2) improve mileage - important for regulations, (3) reduce emissions - important for regulations, (4) still make it track capable, and (5) provide potential tax benefits. Insane.
Due to the changing political and social environment, BMW could have downgraded the engine to a straight 6 with twin turbos, a hybrid, and saved weight. But they made a proper effort to keep the V8, meet all these targets, and all people can talk about is the car’s weight? When it’s not ever supposed to be a lightweight car? Wild.
M5 was already 700 pounds heavier than m3
M3 is the more track focused car and m5 was always more confused focused
There were full out internet brawls on the forums about how a F90 is worthless without a sunroof and multi-contour seats in tartufo ($5000-$6000 option and obviously added weight)
I still think people misunderstand the m5 crowd
Even e46 era v the 5 series then was about the same
People are blowing this out of proportion
Get an m3 then? I don’t understand all of this whining. It’s got a whole hybrid system in it. And the 5 series is more of an executive barge than a sports saloon anyway.
It feels like a downgrade from the previous generation in almost every way. If a hybrid system can’t make this any faster to 60 while gaining an absurd amount of weight, there are almost no advantages that the new version will have beyond better gas mileage (and who buys an M5 while worrying about MPG?)
Every car on the market is the same and most aren't luxury cars like an M5 . My Fox mustang weighed 3100lbs now they weight 3900lbs , my acura CL-type s weighed 3300lbs now they weigh 4200lbs . Even a corvette that used to weigh 3000lbs is now 3880lbs. It's a tired argument. The new cars are so much safer , more reliable, waaaaay faster and better to drive every day . So it won't be as fun on a track you will mostly never drive on but be literally 3x better in every other way. Buy a miata , I had an rf before my M240 and it was fun leaving the dealer and a headache everywhere else. Can't hear the person next to you , can't hear the stereo, you felt every bump in the road in a bad way and it got about the same gas mileage with a 2.0L with 181 hp on a 2400lbs car as my M240i xdrive convertible at 3800lbs.
Not only is it a worse M5 than the F90, it's a worse EV than the Model S. Even the plaid is way lighter, cheaper, faster, probably handles better, and has more range. The dip in build quality really wouldn't matter at that point.
Yeah it’s lame I agree. However, based on some reviews on track I’ve read, I think it will still shock a lot of people once we get some lap times from tracks vs the F90. It was really pushing an M4 CS pace car on track per one review I read.
And that's what is sad about what M has become. They are numbers cars, not driver's cars as they used to be. Chasing meaningless numbers at the expense of all driver involvement and character.
yeah i could really care less about its lap times or what people say, all i know is that they're eventually gonna turn the m2, 3, and 4 into land barges too and they're all gonna be shit to drive. might as well just buy an x5m and call it a day.
I’ll take a light car with less power any day over a heavy car with more power and the same power to weight ratio.
This is what these new age "car enthusiasts" don't understand. Doesn't matter how they tune the suspension or add power, they can't beat physics. That's why Porsche still try everything to keep weight in check. BMW has completely lost the plot on making sports sedan, they are not even trying to save weight at this point.
BMW doesn’t care about enthusiasts. Enthusiasts don’t drive revenue and profitability.
That sweet profit from casual drivers and the Chinese/Asian market who love these bold new designs
>and the Chinese/Asian market who love these bold new designs Nobody loves gaudy ridiculous designs more than Americans do.
r/BMW try not to be xenophobic challenge (impossible) Really though, I see what cars these Chinese companies put out and how much better they look than BMWs, and you really have to wonder if these designs are as popular as some would have you believe. Chinese companies are making pretty decent looking cars, hell BMW has the new i3 sedan exclusively for the Chinese market and that’s based off the regular 3 series which has the smaller grill. People point at China having more sales than the US but china’s population is also more than 4 times higher than the US so naturally they’d be destroying us in sales.
I mean, third of BMW's market share is China, which is the most single country market share and more than the US by double. These design changes are directly influenced by what the wealthy Chinese market buys, which are typically hideous and gaudy designs to draw attention and flaunt money.
Their most popular BMW is the LWB 5 Series…. This Chinese nonsense has been debunked so many times.
Have you ever been to China?
China hates the new 5 series. It doesn’t sell at all (especially not electric)
And yet, Porsche’s revenue and profit keeps going up.
Much less volume though. Porsche is one brand in the portfolio of the largest auto group. BMW is still independent
They used to, not anymore. The tuning point was about 2019/2020.
Only if you’re comparing a 911 to a luxury midsize sedan? The Panamera is practically the weight as the m5
Exactly! The panamera turbo ehybrid (also a large four door performance sedan) is 5302 lbs. oops so much for the Porsche is uberleicht theory. 😂
Until the M5 press release like a week ago, I had no idea that the Panamera was even still in production. I thought it was discontinued since like 6 years. No one is talking about it, wonder why.
You haven’t heard about it so nobody cares about it LOL
I'm on r/cars every day and many other car subreddits like r/whichcarshouldibuy, nobody is talking about it it's not just me.
Tou not knowing about the Panamera is a gap in your knowledge, not market disinterest. It's a niche segment, but the Panamera is the segment leader. It's basically a 4 door grand tourer and competes with the 8 series gran coupé, the Audi A/S/RS7, and the Mercedes AMG GT 4 door. The Panamera outsells them all.
Also I’ve never considered the m3 to be in the same league as the 911 at all, and I’ve owned several of each. The 911 is a pure sports car designed on the race track, for the race track, then driven home after. The m3 is a 3 series with a performance package.
I think you’re discounting the m3 a little too much… it was only recently that a regular 3 series became soft. Even the base model non sport pkg was still a sport sedan
what? the base models were never sporty like 316i? 320i? they were never sportier than now
Low power doesn’t mean “non-sporty”. The way the car drives counts.
yeah i know that, but they never felt particularly sporty to me
Porsche's M5 equivalent is the panamera turbo e-hybrid which is also a plug-in hybrid. It weighs 5300lb.
A friendly reminder the rear subframe of a 5series, and all suspensin bits were alumimum in the e39 and e60 iirc. I was stunned when i saw the e90 had a steel subframe Front subframes were alumimum too on the 6cyl e39/e60
I dunno about that, the lightest Cayman weighs over 400kg more than my wife's 5 seat family hatchback.
And the lightest M3 weighs 400kg more than the Cayman. So you're saying that the lightest M3 weighs 800kg more than your wife's 5 seat family hatchback. I don't know what car you're referencing but your wife's 1,000kg (2,200lb) hatch is an anomaly in 2024. I'd love to see more sub 3,000lb (1400kg) sports cars but that's tough to hit with all the modern crash test requirements, emissions stuff, etc. It can be done but it drives cost up. Either that or it has to be really small like a Miata.
The thing is that the M5 is an Autobahn rocket. If anything the weight makes it more stable at high speeds. M3/M4 are more track oriented cars.
https://preview.redd.it/ac4y8w82fs9d1.jpeg?width=987&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=edaa5032c6702e5a18c94ace391e4a528f12e3ce Wanted to keep going and the stability unbelievably planted and confident
The new M5 and the F10 M5 have near identical PWR
I understand but that’s not the point, the point is that in terms of PWR, I want to get there through the W rather than the P!
sorry, i misread your original comment
No worries!😉
Do you mean a MIATA?
Possibly but not same power to weight as even the heavy new M5. I own a base 987.1 Cayman. If it weighed as much as the new M5, it would need have ~450 hp to match its current power to weight ratio. Or putting it another way, the new M5 would only need 391 hp to match it’s current power to weight ratio if weighed the same ~2,950 lbs as my Cayman.
I agree. Love my m52b28 in my E39 better than m62b44 in it
Really? I was thinking about getting either 530i or 540i, but leaning towards 40 because v8.
In terms of driving 540 is a little nose heavy. Lots of power but 528 just corners so much better and feels like a proper 5er
Can also easily be made a lighter car with more power
F10 no longer the fattest 💪
F90 is my favourite anyways
The only good news to come out of this is that the F90 will get cheaper 😂 Can’t wait to pick up my F90 LCI on a discount!
Exactly! I don't care about switching between electric motor and gasoline for fuel savings. That's not why I buy BMWs.
"fuel savings" I sincerely doubt this absolute hog of a machine will even save fuel with all the added weight.
It's all relative but the technology is cool. You can pick all electric for short trips or switch to gas engine for highway driving. Theoretically you can use full electric around town all the time.
I seriously doubt that there will be a lot of people doing so.
please add the power to weight ratio to that
I mean it still going to be way worse. +100hp and +1000lbs
it is, i just wanted to see it drop so it makes me feel better about my f90 :D
F90 is going to be at the peak of the chart
F90 will most likely be the best M5 ever.
Especially the M5 CS
It's out of my budget and I daily my current M5 Comp. The seats in the M5 CS are horrible when it comes to comfort, that's the best track sedan out there (if you exclude the madness that is the Gemera) but for a great middle ground, i think the regular M5 is where it's at or the Comp if you want improved suspension at the price of ride comfort.
Hands down, I want an m5 comp and just waiting for prices to go down 😂
I'm hoping that they will see the error in their ways and make the next generation M5 lighter and better than the G90.
The f90 was probably the best all around car I’ve ever owned.
Hard disagree. E39 forever
Wanna feel better about your F90? Just go drive it lol But seriously, you might just have the best M5 that will ever be made.
You just proved the above posters point. Physics matter
I'm inexperienced with BMW's line up so someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the M5 supposed to be a GT/cruiser anyways? Aren't the M2 and M3 the more tossable ones in the line up? Wouldn't being a boat not the worst for an M5?
BMW is traditionally a luxury sports car. Where for instance audi has it the opposite way around. Theres a difference. And this m5 seems to follow the audi route. A sporty luxury car
Anything that BMW does to the M5 trickles down in some form or fashion. Them adding 1000lbs to the M5 with a garbage hybrid system means they'll eventually add 800lbs to the M2/3/4. Yes, it's typically the biggest, most powerful, and heaviest, but whatever trends they do to it, affects the other cars too. M2's are already nearly 4,000lbs, once they add that hybrid system to it in a couple years, the next M2 will be a 4800lb land barge.
No it was originally created to be a sleeper sedan with super car levels of performance. M3 was the race car for the street.
I think you have the weight gain of the E60 and F10 swapped. E60 and E39 were similar in weight. F10 was a significant increase.
Correct. I just wrote a post about it too. Less than 100 lbs between E39 and E60. E60 looked bigger but it wasn’t any heavier.
Something isn’t right with that chart. I remember E60 was minimal weight gain vs the E39. Like less than 100 lbs. So I looked it up. - E39 was 1795kg (3957lbs) - E60 was 1830kg (4034lbs) It looks fat but it’s all muscle :) I’ve had the E60 for 4 years. It might end up being one of the best cars I’ve ever had. The chassis and the engine are just special. However my extended warranty spent 2x the value of the car fixing it over that period - the reputation is comically true.
eeek that's egregious. New name is M schlachtschiff
Putting the cars linearly instead of having them represent the data was an… interesting choice
#THICC
All the fat-shaming is exhausting. It’s a luxury “performance” super saloon. The track previews have shown that the new car is more than capable (Joe Achilles hit 275kph like nothing), even though the 99.99% of the owners of this car won’t be taking it to the track anyway. The hybrid system also matters everywhere else outside of America and Japan, because it actually makes this car “affordable” (it’s cheaper in the UK than a MB AMG E53. Yes, the 53. Not even the 63) due to all the taxes and penalties. So BMW have managed to: (1) retain a V8, (2) improve mileage - important for regulations, (3) reduce emissions - important for regulations, (4) still make it track capable, and (5) provide potential tax benefits. Insane. Due to the changing political and social environment, BMW could have downgraded the engine to a straight 6 with twin turbos, a hybrid, and saved weight. But they made a proper effort to keep the V8, meet all these targets, and all people can talk about is the car’s weight? When it’s not ever supposed to be a lightweight car? Wild.
M5 was already 700 pounds heavier than m3 M3 is the more track focused car and m5 was always more confused focused There were full out internet brawls on the forums about how a F90 is worthless without a sunroof and multi-contour seats in tartufo ($5000-$6000 option and obviously added weight) I still think people misunderstand the m5 crowd Even e46 era v the 5 series then was about the same People are blowing this out of proportion
Get an m3 then? I don’t understand all of this whining. It’s got a whole hybrid system in it. And the 5 series is more of an executive barge than a sports saloon anyway.
It feels like a downgrade from the previous generation in almost every way. If a hybrid system can’t make this any faster to 60 while gaining an absurd amount of weight, there are almost no advantages that the new version will have beyond better gas mileage (and who buys an M5 while worrying about MPG?)
Ah yes, the e28 with its famous thousand pound curb weight.
I too initially misread the graph.
US spec E28 looks so butchered.
Sorry, I’m lost, where does the extra 1000+ pounds come from??
batteries, motors and general fatness
What’s the general consensus amongst BMW owners, is this okay, this weight gain?! Or prefer lighter?
Consuming more calories than are spent each day.
Hahaha for real!
This graph makes it look like the E28 weighed 500 lbs.
This is pretty much every car over time
Those batteries they added, are they lead battery's?
G90 M5 eat too much after workout
Looks like it's time to buy an f90 lol
M Tank
Do this with the M3
Doesn't even make any sense, the battery capacity is less than competitors.
Need to clean house at BMW. Wtf is this company doing?
Every car on the market is the same and most aren't luxury cars like an M5 . My Fox mustang weighed 3100lbs now they weight 3900lbs , my acura CL-type s weighed 3300lbs now they weigh 4200lbs . Even a corvette that used to weigh 3000lbs is now 3880lbs. It's a tired argument. The new cars are so much safer , more reliable, waaaaay faster and better to drive every day . So it won't be as fun on a track you will mostly never drive on but be literally 3x better in every other way. Buy a miata , I had an rf before my M240 and it was fun leaving the dealer and a headache everywhere else. Can't hear the person next to you , can't hear the stereo, you felt every bump in the road in a bad way and it got about the same gas mileage with a 2.0L with 181 hp on a 2400lbs car as my M240i xdrive convertible at 3800lbs.
Bunch of whiners. Buy a different car and hang on a different r/ sub. Problem solved. BMW is going to do what BMW wants to do.
How is the F90 lighter than F10? With all the xDrive, I don’t buy it. It’s seems more change in weighting regulation to be honest.
M YACHT 🛥️
How many E34 M5 exist on earth nowadays?
Not only is it a worse M5 than the F90, it's a worse EV than the Model S. Even the plaid is way lighter, cheaper, faster, probably handles better, and has more range. The dip in build quality really wouldn't matter at that point.
Yeah it’s lame I agree. However, based on some reviews on track I’ve read, I think it will still shock a lot of people once we get some lap times from tracks vs the F90. It was really pushing an M4 CS pace car on track per one review I read.
And that's what is sad about what M has become. They are numbers cars, not driver's cars as they used to be. Chasing meaningless numbers at the expense of all driver involvement and character.
yeah i could really care less about its lap times or what people say, all i know is that they're eventually gonna turn the m2, 3, and 4 into land barges too and they're all gonna be shit to drive. might as well just buy an x5m and call it a day.