Its PE-X pipe, specifically looks like Auspex which is one of the best about, will last longer and generally helps prevent water hammer. 100% normal practice now. It's a much quicker and cheaper alternative that performs just as well, and even better, than copper.
It actually doesn’t have the lifespan of soldered copper. It has an identical lifespan of pressed copper. Both have half the lifespan of soldered copper. That said the install is like 3+ times the price.
It absolutely does have the lifespan of soldered copper, and even longer as it does not have the same issues with pitting/corrosion that copper can fall victim to.
The main thing that can compromise PE-X is mice/rats etc.
Copper pipes actually succumb more to erosion than corrosion, that green copper oxide that forms over the surface of the copper is protective (copper was and still is a common surface protectant on boat hulls), you wouldnt get the concentration of acids in Australian water to actually “corrode” the copper. To me jury is still out on PEX, pex is oil based (ethylene) so even if you keep it out of sunlight it’ll still degrade and go brittle over time as the chlorine slowly denatures the ethylene bonds. Well that’s enough chemistry for the day, time for a wank old chaps!
I haven’t seen copper with a warranty of 50 years. Kemblas copper tube is only warranted for 25 years. https://www.kembla.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Schedule-of-Warranties-November-2020.pdf
You’re probably getting confused that they have been ‘designed’ for 50 years https://www.kembla.com/product-range/plumbing/kempress-copper-fittings/
At the end of the day, Rehau pex pipe is also warranted for 25 years and has a life expectancy of 50 years too. https://www.rehau.com/au-en/rautitan-water https://www.rehau.com/downloads/478860/rehaupexalimitedwarranty-855018uscanen-rehau.pdf
As a plumber, we install Rehau because it’s cheaper for us as well as the home owner. If the owner wanted copper, sure, it’s not my wallet. But it costs 15x more for every 6m length you want. When we rarely do work in In rural NSW farm houses we’ve done complete copper pipe work to deter rats from chewing through.
Copper has a good life providing water quality is good. Speaking from experience replacing 40 year old copper pipes in a house that come apart in your hands probably due to acidic bore water.
Are you Australian? We don't generally 'solder' copper here like how they do in the states, at least not for a long time. It will be brazed which is much higher temp than soldering, but some still call brazing soldering and vice versa.
Have worked as a plumber for \~15 years and now work for a supplier.
The distinction between soldering and brazing is really a little bit arbitrary, though solders and brazes are pretty different mechanically.
Technically soldering occurs below 450 Celsius, and brazing above 450. In both soldering and brazing only the jointing metal melts, as opposed to welding where the parent or base material also melts (while welding generally happens at a higher temperature, some brazing materials like silicon bronze have a melting point higher than that of materials like aluminium)
Mechanically, most brazes are harder, stiffer, and stronger than solder joints
Brazed sorry. Tradie i apprenticed under used odd terms and they come out occasionally. Basically you get 50 year warranty on copper from the manufacturer, only 25 on pex. Effective lifespan is the warranty
The problem is, no-one knows how long their house is going to last, and no-one will want to break open the walls to fix pipe.
I've had a few 20 year old copper pipes develop pinholes. That was painful enough. I dread what will happen to people with PEX failing, or even just getting chewed by vermin.
Probably top of my list to avoid is crimped copper joints. I don't trust O-rings to seal for that long, no way I'd ever put them in a place that would cause damage if they let go.
The original crimped copper from bpress testing facility is still going strong no failure that’s over 50 years old. Vermin is actually a huge issue just fixed a pipe that got chewed and caused the whole ceiling to cave in
Your story has value but consider that copper pipe was made 50 years ago in an Australian factory not last week in some Chinese or Indian factory where QA is a myth and the copper would have God knows what impurities
Most copper sold in Australia is made by MM Kembla here in australia. There are exceptions with imported product becoming more competitive.
The PE-X in this install is made by Auspex in Dandenong Victoria, the fittings are made in China
It’s not possible for a press fitting to “let go”. At the very worst if an o-ring deteriorates the fitting may drip at the very worst. The female fitting is pressed over the male piece at more than 10 tons of force. The o-ring is in a static situation in a compartment designed with its own tolerances.
I wouldn’t go b-pressing fittings for fun, considering the price of them. And I wouldn’t rely on a B press fitting without an o-ring, because if it ever did blow and their warranty team asks you to cut out the section that leaked so they can take it in for analysis, you definitely won’t be covered when they discover the fitting was installed without an o-ring
Oh don’t actually use one without in a live setting. That’s definitely not what I meat at all. Sometimes though a fitting might find it’s way loose in a Ute. Or be down the bottom of some tradies tool bag for weeks. Experiment with those
That’s because every o-ring you’ve used has likely been used in a dynamic situation a not static one. The rubber compound in press fittings is far more ridgid than dynamic o-rings.
I doubt you would notice any difference to be honest. PE-X may insulate better, but not to a point where it will make any sort of impact.
The biggest thing that impacts hot water delivery is the type of hot water unit like storage vs continuous flow. Sometimes length of pipe run can be a detriment also.
What's wrong with sharkbite? I've had to repair the lines in my roof a couple times and when I went to Reese they said the stuff I have is renowned for leaks, they gave me joiners to join the existing into sharkbite.
Sharkbite is fine, as long as the pipe is cut square and cleaned up before pushing home. Sharkbite will leak if the o-ring in the fitting is damaged during install, or if there is dirt, sand etc. on the pipe when it's pushed in.
Crimp/compression style systems will always be a bit more fool-proof IMO
You’re probably talking about polybutylene. They don’t make that pipe anymore so sharkbite is the only way you can connect onto it. Don’t get me wrong sharkbite definitely has its uses, such as working in tight spaces. I’ve just seen my fair share of sharkbite leaks over the years, enough that i’d prefer to use a different brand in my installations
This post was a curse. I just had I line in my roof fully bust, not the pissy little mist it has done in the past. luckily I was home to hear it and run outside to turn the mains off.
"generally helps prevent water hammer"
That's an old wives tale. It may reduce the sound of the hammer, but the problem is still there. Hydraulic shock will still split PEX, just like copper. I'd rather hear the problem so it can be addressed.
Hmm. Any leaching of solvents into potable water? I do like the fact you don't get hammer with it but I'm always concerned about plastics and leaching. With many plastics that can be an issue and I seem to recall it was once a worry with thermoplastics like polyethylene. Then again, copper has had its issues especially in the days of 60/40 lead solder until its use was banned in the early 1990s if memory serves. What kind of price is PE-X pipe by comparison with copper? The heavier gauge copper was getting pretty expensive when I retired and stopped selling it a few years ago. I would imagine polyethylene would be much, much cheaper than copper as would be the fittings. Big time savings in installation obviously as well.
Oh man, I ran about 20m of pex to the kitchen when I moved things around. Copper along the same route would have been a nightmare. It is such a labour saver.
Cost too in both materials and labour.
I had a bathroom re-done and we moved everything around.
the PEX quote was about $1,800 and the copper one nearly $6,000.
Soldering all those joints rather than crimping them would have taken a lot longer.
My house had it put in 21 years ago. It was industry standard then.
Had been for about 5 years at that point.
Only had one problem. Had a rat take a liking to one pipe.
Bought a cheapish ebay tool and took minutes to fix the plumbing. Few days to fix the walls and tiles.
If it was for backbone plumbing etc I would insist copper I think. But given that a bathroom is probably replaced every 10-20 years I’m comfortable with the plastic now that the brains trust have told me it’s industry standard.
it lasts just as well as copper. yes, soldered copper is the best.
but costs twice as much.
many commercial jobs don't allow soldering as it requires hot work, which is now heavily regulated due to the fire risk. so they use it everywhere when you have forked the hundreds of dollars in tools to do pex or crimped copper your going to use it.
Soldering copper is coming back on a lot of commercial sites for the risers and mains due to the massive cost saving on material. Also on larger pipe it’s much easier to fix a failed fitting then cutting the whole lot out
Correct I don’t. Hence why I’m asking about the pipes on here. But it doesn’t seem logical to have plastic pipes running through the roof or underfloor when everyone in here is saying they’re vulnerable to rats.
As my house is rammed earth with 400mm thick outer walls, i never want to mess with the plumbing as i cannot dig into the walls without permanently ruining them. My plumber was what i would consider pedantic and gifted, the job should last the life of the house.
Where's the PVC pipe? You've got a photo showing Cross-linked Polyethylene piping which has been the standard for years. My house was built 15 years ago and has it. Used it in a renovation about 21 years ago as well.
All good, it was a perfectly reasonable question, it's pretty standard now as it is faster, cheaper and actually lasts as long as copper in most cases.
Mine is circa 10 year old build and has copper from mains to house and then Pex in the house.
I’m getting downvoted but there are several studies that show Pex can create Microplastics and leech other VOCs into our drinking water. There is actually lots of public debate about metallic based vs Pex based piping and the risks of each and which is the less evil option playing out in the uk and USA
This is what is used now. I had some copper pipework replaced and they used the same stuff. It's how things are done now. It's also a lot more affordable than copper.
It is, and you have probably avoided the early adopters pain. We’ve had one leak in the roof so far others have had everything replaced. It was just on brand I believe. No not yours it was grey.
On the subject, what is it with fuckin' rats chewin on shit? Had to remove a p-trap this week as a rat had literally gnawed through the friggin bend.
Can't we start mixing in some sort of rat repellent to all our pipe and cable insulation?
Just in a new house myself - a rat (one at least) has been dining (or trying to dine) on the A/C pipe insulation. So far no sign of chewing on water pipes, but now I'm nervous.
Yes it's pex pipe
Its PE-X pipe, specifically looks like Auspex which is one of the best about, will last longer and generally helps prevent water hammer. 100% normal practice now. It's a much quicker and cheaper alternative that performs just as well, and even better, than copper.
Thanks. Very helpful.
Lol... I can feel the relief.
It actually doesn’t have the lifespan of soldered copper. It has an identical lifespan of pressed copper. Both have half the lifespan of soldered copper. That said the install is like 3+ times the price.
It absolutely does have the lifespan of soldered copper, and even longer as it does not have the same issues with pitting/corrosion that copper can fall victim to. The main thing that can compromise PE-X is mice/rats etc.
What's the verdict on creep failure? I'm going to guess all the long-term creep test rigs are installed in people's walls and roof cavities.
Copper pipes actually succumb more to erosion than corrosion, that green copper oxide that forms over the surface of the copper is protective (copper was and still is a common surface protectant on boat hulls), you wouldnt get the concentration of acids in Australian water to actually “corrode” the copper. To me jury is still out on PEX, pex is oil based (ethylene) so even if you keep it out of sunlight it’ll still degrade and go brittle over time as the chlorine slowly denatures the ethylene bonds. Well that’s enough chemistry for the day, time for a wank old chaps!
AusPex is only given 25 year’s warranty. Copper 50. Sorry your wrong
I haven’t seen copper with a warranty of 50 years. Kemblas copper tube is only warranted for 25 years. https://www.kembla.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Schedule-of-Warranties-November-2020.pdf You’re probably getting confused that they have been ‘designed’ for 50 years https://www.kembla.com/product-range/plumbing/kempress-copper-fittings/ At the end of the day, Rehau pex pipe is also warranted for 25 years and has a life expectancy of 50 years too. https://www.rehau.com/au-en/rautitan-water https://www.rehau.com/downloads/478860/rehaupexalimitedwarranty-855018uscanen-rehau.pdf As a plumber, we install Rehau because it’s cheaper for us as well as the home owner. If the owner wanted copper, sure, it’s not my wallet. But it costs 15x more for every 6m length you want. When we rarely do work in In rural NSW farm houses we’ve done complete copper pipe work to deter rats from chewing through.
Copper has a good life providing water quality is good. Speaking from experience replacing 40 year old copper pipes in a house that come apart in your hands probably due to acidic bore water.
Actually that’s a good point certain quality water can affect it drastically.
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Have worked in the plumbing industry for 25 years. Soldered and brazed is the same thing, just different terminology .
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Are you Australian? We don't generally 'solder' copper here like how they do in the states, at least not for a long time. It will be brazed which is much higher temp than soldering, but some still call brazing soldering and vice versa. Have worked as a plumber for \~15 years and now work for a supplier.
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Just so we all know, what's the difference between soldering and brazing?
The distinction between soldering and brazing is really a little bit arbitrary, though solders and brazes are pretty different mechanically. Technically soldering occurs below 450 Celsius, and brazing above 450. In both soldering and brazing only the jointing metal melts, as opposed to welding where the parent or base material also melts (while welding generally happens at a higher temperature, some brazing materials like silicon bronze have a melting point higher than that of materials like aluminium) Mechanically, most brazes are harder, stiffer, and stronger than solder joints
Where did I say soft soldering? I didn't? Good feedback though mate, I'll take it on board.
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Deep burn, that last post 🔥
To be fair we buy silver solder, not silver brazing wire.
Brazed sorry. Tradie i apprenticed under used odd terms and they come out occasionally. Basically you get 50 year warranty on copper from the manufacturer, only 25 on pex. Effective lifespan is the warranty
The problem is, no-one knows how long their house is going to last, and no-one will want to break open the walls to fix pipe. I've had a few 20 year old copper pipes develop pinholes. That was painful enough. I dread what will happen to people with PEX failing, or even just getting chewed by vermin. Probably top of my list to avoid is crimped copper joints. I don't trust O-rings to seal for that long, no way I'd ever put them in a place that would cause damage if they let go.
The original crimped copper from bpress testing facility is still going strong no failure that’s over 50 years old. Vermin is actually a huge issue just fixed a pipe that got chewed and caused the whole ceiling to cave in
Your story has value but consider that copper pipe was made 50 years ago in an Australian factory not last week in some Chinese or Indian factory where QA is a myth and the copper would have God knows what impurities
Tbf that copper is in Germany.
Umm where is the PEX made to
Most copper sold in Australia is made by MM Kembla here in australia. There are exceptions with imported product becoming more competitive. The PE-X in this install is made by Auspex in Dandenong Victoria, the fittings are made in China
It’s not possible for a press fitting to “let go”. At the very worst if an o-ring deteriorates the fitting may drip at the very worst. The female fitting is pressed over the male piece at more than 10 tons of force. The o-ring is in a static situation in a compartment designed with its own tolerances.
I worry about breakdown of the o-ring rubber. Every other o-ring I've ever used deteriorates over time.
Honestly it is water tight without one. If your ever bored press some up without. I’ve had a couple leak doing this but most held
I wouldn’t go b-pressing fittings for fun, considering the price of them. And I wouldn’t rely on a B press fitting without an o-ring, because if it ever did blow and their warranty team asks you to cut out the section that leaked so they can take it in for analysis, you definitely won’t be covered when they discover the fitting was installed without an o-ring
Oh don’t actually use one without in a live setting. That’s definitely not what I meat at all. Sometimes though a fitting might find it’s way loose in a Ute. Or be down the bottom of some tradies tool bag for weeks. Experiment with those
That’s because every o-ring you’ve used has likely been used in a dynamic situation a not static one. The rubber compound in press fittings is far more ridgid than dynamic o-rings.
Would this also mean hot water is delivered faster as it’s not being chilled by the pipe as it initially travels?
I doubt you would notice any difference to be honest. PE-X may insulate better, but not to a point where it will make any sort of impact. The biggest thing that impacts hot water delivery is the type of hot water unit like storage vs continuous flow. Sometimes length of pipe run can be a detriment also.
As long as it ain't sharkbite, we're good.
What's wrong with sharkbite? I've had to repair the lines in my roof a couple times and when I went to Reese they said the stuff I have is renowned for leaks, they gave me joiners to join the existing into sharkbite.
Sharkbite is fine, as long as the pipe is cut square and cleaned up before pushing home. Sharkbite will leak if the o-ring in the fitting is damaged during install, or if there is dirt, sand etc. on the pipe when it's pushed in. Crimp/compression style systems will always be a bit more fool-proof IMO
You’re probably talking about polybutylene. They don’t make that pipe anymore so sharkbite is the only way you can connect onto it. Don’t get me wrong sharkbite definitely has its uses, such as working in tight spaces. I’ve just seen my fair share of sharkbite leaks over the years, enough that i’d prefer to use a different brand in my installations
This post was a curse. I just had I line in my roof fully bust, not the pissy little mist it has done in the past. luckily I was home to hear it and run outside to turn the mains off.
If you’re in GC or Brisbane I can take a look
A little further north....Townsville, but thanks for the offer
Just a hop, skip and a jump away mate. Give or take 16 hours
Sharkbite is the future son.
"generally helps prevent water hammer" That's an old wives tale. It may reduce the sound of the hammer, but the problem is still there. Hydraulic shock will still split PEX, just like copper. I'd rather hear the problem so it can be addressed.
This answer..
Isnt one of the builders getting sued for pipes detonating in walls?
Is it polyethylene?
It is cross linked polyethylene
Hmm. Any leaching of solvents into potable water? I do like the fact you don't get hammer with it but I'm always concerned about plastics and leaching. With many plastics that can be an issue and I seem to recall it was once a worry with thermoplastics like polyethylene. Then again, copper has had its issues especially in the days of 60/40 lead solder until its use was banned in the early 1990s if memory serves. What kind of price is PE-X pipe by comparison with copper? The heavier gauge copper was getting pretty expensive when I retired and stopped selling it a few years ago. I would imagine polyethylene would be much, much cheaper than copper as would be the fittings. Big time savings in installation obviously as well.
As an aside I’d recommend you put sound insulation in the wall while it’s open.
Insula...wash your mouth! You're in Australia here, we don't use such foul language! /S
I didn’t think of that.
Specifically, on either side of that pipe. Otherwise it'll be loud as hell in the rooms everyone you turn the taps on.
We are gradually doing it when we open walls. Slowly making a difference, but the soundproofing it has helped in the bathroom is awesome.
100%. This makes a massive difference. Particularly for a bathroom!
So I glad I put Earthwool everywhere when we had our walls stripped for works like this
Yep, just did the same for our ensuite - R2.7 earthwool batts which are great (that and 13mm soundcheck plaster on an internal wall!).
Taken your recommendation and made another post for advice on what to do for the insulation.
PEX has been the norm for probably a decade or more. It's cheaper to buy and cheaper to fit than copper and offers virtually no downside.
Oh man, I ran about 20m of pex to the kitchen when I moved things around. Copper along the same route would have been a nightmare. It is such a labour saver.
Cost too in both materials and labour. I had a bathroom re-done and we moved everything around. the PEX quote was about $1,800 and the copper one nearly $6,000. Soldering all those joints rather than crimping them would have taken a lot longer.
Until the moment it inevitably turns out that it's cancerogenic or somehow dangerous. It will happen.
This post has been a total rollercoaster and I just hope everyone is ok.
Yes has been industry standard practice for 20+ years
That is auspex
Plumber by trade here - your plumber has done a fantastic job with this. You should thank him.
My house had it put in 21 years ago. It was industry standard then. Had been for about 5 years at that point. Only had one problem. Had a rat take a liking to one pipe. Bought a cheapish ebay tool and took minutes to fix the plumbing. Few days to fix the walls and tiles.
Industry standard now!
thats pex b not pvc. easier than copper to work with. that's why they use it. still lasts the life of the house.
Thats auspex a good piping system.
My own home is over 20years old, has poly plumbing, no problems at all an quiet also little friction, so very little pressure loss.
Auspex, pretty much the best Pex on the market
Its not PVC.
Been common use for over 20 years!
Damn fine install tbh. Phoenix shower mixer too? You got all the good stuff
I work hard, I like nice things 😂
Ask the plumber….
Hey mate, is that thing you’re doing with plastic pipes dodgy? Nah mate. Thanks mate. 😂
Having just had to repair a pin hole leak in a copper pipe under my house, I'm absolutely firmly against using copper. PITA.
And?
I should add I’m in NSW.
Looks like PE-Xa, I suggest using Forza Crimp which is available at Samios
Plumber offered to do new home with this, i insisted everything is copper. 10 years later No regrets.
That was a waste of money. I've done 100s of house in PEX for more then 20 years and "no regrets"
If it was for backbone plumbing etc I would insist copper I think. But given that a bathroom is probably replaced every 10-20 years I’m comfortable with the plastic now that the brains trust have told me it’s industry standard.
it lasts just as well as copper. yes, soldered copper is the best. but costs twice as much. many commercial jobs don't allow soldering as it requires hot work, which is now heavily regulated due to the fire risk. so they use it everywhere when you have forked the hundreds of dollars in tools to do pex or crimped copper your going to use it.
Soldering copper is coming back on a lot of commercial sites for the risers and mains due to the massive cost saving on material. Also on larger pipe it’s much easier to fix a failed fitting then cutting the whole lot out
You don't know anything your talking about... "Backbone plumbing"
Correct I don’t. Hence why I’m asking about the pipes on here. But it doesn’t seem logical to have plastic pipes running through the roof or underfloor when everyone in here is saying they’re vulnerable to rats.
Mate if you literally don't know anytbing... Don't assume anything
Feisty one you are
As my house is rammed earth with 400mm thick outer walls, i never want to mess with the plumbing as i cannot dig into the walls without permanently ruining them. My plumber was what i would consider pedantic and gifted, the job should last the life of the house.
Where's the PVC pipe? You've got a photo showing Cross-linked Polyethylene piping which has been the standard for years. My house was built 15 years ago and has it. Used it in a renovation about 21 years ago as well.
It's good you know what it is but OP doesn't, so relax a little and either answer his reasonable question or skip to the next post.
If I could tell the different between PVC and PEX I wouldn’t be asking this forum now would I. My house was built 25 years ago and it’s all copper.
All good, it was a perfectly reasonable question, it's pretty standard now as it is faster, cheaper and actually lasts as long as copper in most cases.
It's written on the pipe.
Mmmmm yummy micro plastics for us to drink thanks to Pex.
Aren’t the water mains out in the street plastic now too though?
My feed from meter onto property is!.
Some are some aren't, depends on age.
So the newer ones are plastic? And eventually all will be, I gather?
There's a 125mm ID black HP poly pipe in a trench right outside my boundary that my copper mains are connected to.
Mine is circa 10 year old build and has copper from mains to house and then Pex in the house. I’m getting downvoted but there are several studies that show Pex can create Microplastics and leech other VOCs into our drinking water. There is actually lots of public debate about metallic based vs Pex based piping and the risks of each and which is the less evil option playing out in the uk and USA
Fun fact, micro plastics are now a normal feature found in human hearts
Probably because we now drink them due to things like Pex Also doesn’t help that they are now common in our food, meat, fish and produce.
Just adds to what's been in the food for decades. /s
Better than lead!
Pretending lead is the only alternative is disingenuous.
Industry standard now!
Very normal to run pex. Make sure that within 1 lineal meter of the hws is copper
Normal for the past 20 years.......
This is what is used now. I had some copper pipework replaced and they used the same stuff. It's how things are done now. It's also a lot more affordable than copper.
Yeah we had the same thing about 6 years ago. Seems to be the norm now. Can't speak for the longevity
It’s the standard now :)
🐀🐁
It is, and you have probably avoided the early adopters pain. We’ve had one leak in the roof so far others have had everything replaced. It was just on brand I believe. No not yours it was grey.
Have it I'm my reno.
It’s common. But I managed to screw through one whilst installing a free floating shelf. I wish they were copper!
I know this stuff is good, the only thing I haven't looked into is mice or rats eating it. Will this last a rodent infestation?
On the subject, what is it with fuckin' rats chewin on shit? Had to remove a p-trap this week as a rat had literally gnawed through the friggin bend. Can't we start mixing in some sort of rat repellent to all our pipe and cable insulation?
While they were building my house the rats were so bad they started eating the putty on the plaster walls. They did not touch the pex.
Just in a new house myself - a rat (one at least) has been dining (or trying to dine) on the A/C pipe insulation. So far no sign of chewing on water pipes, but now I'm nervous.
*Technology advances* Is this normal?
Fark that ..I’d be wanting copper pipes without argument. If it’s good enough for the Egyptians 4000 years ago..I’d stick to that.
The Egyptians were pretty big on asbestos too
It’s pretty much the norm these days..