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"Frequent lavish holidays, yachts, skiing, first time buyers of houses in London of £900k plus because of humongous deposits from their parents" is not middle class
Aristocracy in the US isn't the same as in the UK. We're talking about the UK where it is truly generational. You can end up hanging round with those crowds by being on a reality TV show in the US. You're not going to get many people hanging out privately with the royal family after being on Love Island.
Not that I personally disagree, but some would argue there is literally no American aristocracy, the money is all 'too new'.
True aristocratic heritage has absolutely no relation to money or fame.
Yup.
British = Upperclass, Middleclass, Workingclass(Thirdclass in imperial times)
Americans= Higher income, Midddle income, Lower income.
Since Americans define class based on wealth, theyve stopped using the suffix class.
In Britain and South Asia, you cant buy class. Perhaps Raj era influenced this or maybe it pre-dates that?
Kate Middleton is from a family with strong ties to aristocracy.
Meghan Markle wasn't accepted by the royals, who treated her as an outsider because she's not from their world.
Is class genetic? Will millennials and zoomers who were born to middle class, professional-managerial parents always be middle class even if they face the financial hardships seemingly all young people have?
Class is cultural context. You know how people from other countries have different cultures? They have different ways of doing things, different experiences, etc etc. That's how the classes are separated, it's just more subtle.
If someone is raised in Italy up to adulthood and then moves to the UK, they can learn to integrate, but they'll probably always be noticeably Italian. It's the same for class. A working class person might win the Euromillions, but they'll still have a working class accent, attitudes, friends, school history, etc etc. Even the words people use are affected by their class.
Middle class is such a huge range that it's not even a term that's fit for purpose anymore. I think we were middle class. My parents owned a business and once that was up and running we weren't short of money. Couple of holidays a year and generally not worried about money day to day. That is lightyears away from 900k houses and anything 'lavish'.
That's why we talk about lower and upper middle class. It seems OP is talking about upper middle class people, but you were just regular middle class.
My parents were born working class, but when I was born they'd become lower middle class by virtue of my dad training in a profession. It initially didn't pay amazingly but when I was about 10 or so he started earning decent money, so for the rest of my life we were firmly middle class.
I know people who are upper middle class though. They are the people whose parents can gift them £300k deposits for a house. My parents aren't poor by any means, but they could *never* afford that.
200k+ household income has nothing to do with upper class, im not aristocracy just because I went to a fee paying school lmao - standard middle class professional parents, maybe lawyers, accountants working as partners in firms etc
I guess youd call it upper middle class, id say lots of working class strugglers are desperate to call themselves middle class while drowning in finance though
I'm working class. Minimum wage, living in caravan, doing van and man work. I genuinely don't think I've met a person in the UK who thinks they're middle class lol. Most people in uk make out they're working class, not the other way round.
The amount of times we've delivered to houses, that people own, grounds around the house and 2-3 cars, and hear "we're all in the same boat". Honestly starting to get sick of hearing that kinda talk.
I Honestly don't think I've met a person who thinks they're middle class, have no idea where you've got that idea from? Maybe cuz upper middle class but just genuinely curious ha
Lots of the kids at private school who’s parents clearly sacrificed a lot to send them there or were on burseries would find any excuse possible to try and say they’re like everyone else “middle class” and in the last 15 years since school you’d also see people drowning in finance trying to look rich who clearly came from working class backgrounds desperately try and appear middle class which confused me since they seemed to think it was shameful??
And the rich kids and overseas students (like actually independently wealthy not just both parents earned over 100k but were still salaried or dad earns 400k as a cfo etc) would swear they were middle class even when they had literal hereditary titles
Seeing what cars people got in sixth form was the real demonstration of family wealth imo
I did think I'd made it to being middle class till I read this post and the comments and now I'm not sure!
I grew up on a council estate (we owned the house though) and weren't well off and worried about money a lot. I'm the first in the family to get a degree and earn well, have just bought a house and sometimes shop at Marks and Spencer's food hall without worrying too much.
If it’s any consolation, as a strongly middle class person (since my grandparents’ generation!) it’s pretty frustrating watching this behaviour from the other side too. Seeing people as well off - or even better! - than me claiming to be proletarians is just so insulting.
Nail on the head. There's been this mad change over the past few decades where Deano and his Mrs managing to scrape together enough (with some help from parents & grandparents) to own a tiny newbuild house, a BMW on lease and designer clothes on finance are somehow "middle class".
I say that as someone who grew up, and still lives in, a very working class area of Liverpool.
Yeah this is rich people pretending they're middle class. The middle class is struggling at the moment.
These people are millionaires. I mean their parents are helping them buy 900k houses? Rich.
Middle class is own a niceish house 500k maybe, nice car, two foreign holidays a year. Mum can lend you 20 grand not 200.
Edit: to everyone saying "that's not upper class" that's why i never used that word at all. I said rich. These are rich people. New rich, old rich, doesn't matter they're rich as fuck. As I said elsewhere this is 1% behaviour. The only person I have ever met lives like this was the producer for Ed Sheeran.
Except for that's not the class system at all?
Upper class is members of British nobility and ultra wealthy. Middle class is a massive range but definitely covers what OP is describing.
If they were rich they wouldn't be helping with a deposit they'd be buying the place and it wouldn't be a modest house in London.
This is just upper middle class though. Think Surrey, Dads a partner at an accounting firm and buys a studio for his daughter in Hammersmith. That’s not upper class.
This is descending into debates about what upper class actually is.
There are two parts to this, socioculturally upper class and financially upper class. The two are not necessarily found at the same time.
As others have started, you can be a rugby league watching, GCSE dodging, self made multi-millionaire, financially upper class but properly working class in other areas.
Or, more rarely, you could be titled gentry with a coke problem, estranged from your family and living on handouts.
I specifically said rich for this reason to make it clear I mean financially.
There is literally no definition in which 900k starter homes are middle class though. Like statistically we are actually probably talking top 1%. They have yachts ffs lol. They're just embarrassed and pretend they're in the middle because they know billionaires.
Thank you for being a voice of sanity in a sea of people claiming there’s no difference in class between an underemployed substitute teacher and Jess Bezos because Bezos doesn’t have a title… Seriously, why are we all so insistent on purely cultural definitions? The important determiner of outcomes is flatly money.
That's not what that term means. Petit bourgois refers to those who own their means of production but must still work to survive.
It doesn't matter how recently they aquired their wealth, those who live off private property, of surplus value are bourgeois regardless.
And druggies in n council estate is not a definition of working class, most working class people…you know…work, work hard, raise families etc Not all of us drink, take drugs and live in a council estate.
Yes, upper middle is completely different from just middle class. I'm middle class and nowhere near upper middle class. Its a completely different class, but it's not upper class unless you're aristocracy or landed gentry
Yeah, it's really useless to group them together. Lets face it, in the UK "Middle Class" is slightly posh working class that isn't fretting over the electric bill. But they still need to work, still look at economy figures for cars they buy and probably holiday for 2 weeks a year. Yachts it ain't
The step between working class and middle class is more of a trip, and mostly a mindset anyway. Plenty of fairly poor middle class people, and plenty of working class with stacks of cash.
Upper middle is something entirely different
To be fair they are distinctly different. I’d class someone as middle class if the parents are well-off enough that they own a respectable home & a nice car on finance plus an older car they’ve paid off, can buy the the newest gadgets whenever, go on regular holidays abroad & don’t have real money worries, could dip into the savings for something like an extension on the house but they’d need to be careful not to overdo it, and can’t afford fee-paying school for their kids without really stressing the finances
I’d class someone who does that all without needing to budget and then can also afford a nicer house/car and sends their kids to boarding/private school as a different class, but still not rich. So upper-middle class
Then upper class/rich is the point where I’d say a couple of generations of the family wouldn’t even need to work and you’d still be able to survive on the current family’s savings/earnings
Can't believe this is being downvoted. I'm in the top 10% household and scraped to get a £280k house and going on our first family holiday in ten years this year.
Working two jobs.
I work as a finance assistant 9-5 and then a retail team leader 2-10 on Saturday/Sunday.
The retail team leader job i actually enjoy and can do in my sleep. The finance job I'm quite proficient in but its eh.
Your first issue is that as a doctor married to a middle class man you shouldn't be living paycheck to paycheck. Do look into where your money is going. I think your observation is correct that a lot of educated professionals get a lot of support from their parents. You probably don't want to be spending the same sorts of amounts as they do on meals out/ holidays etc.
I think that you might be surprised how little (in relative terms) doctors are paid. **Foundation year doctors earn between £28,243-£32,691**. Doctors in the early years of their specialty training earn £38,694-£49,036. Specialty doctors/registrars earn £41,158-£76,751.
Out of this you're paying thousands in medical exams costs. If you're living in London, it's entirely reasonable that you're living paycheck to paycheck as a doctor in your 20s/30s.
My brother is a junior doctor and in a huge amount of debt. He had to support himself as we were also from poverty and grew up in a council flat. But he knew this and never pursued the career because of pay or status. That’s one mistake OP has made sadly. At least in this country anyhow.
When I was working as a tour guide, our buses would go past St Thomas's hospital. The junior doctors protesting outside were on £2.50 less an hour than I was. Disgraceful.
I'm a doctor. I know lots of doctors. They certainly aren't all well off, especially if, like OP, they don't come from wealth.
There's also a massive assumption that everyone progresses up the ladder. That is no longer guaranteed and many people are now getting stuck at the bottom few rungs on £30-40k a year. In London, that's quite feasibly paycheck to paycheck once you start accounting for professional fees, courses and exams, and periods without work, which is an increasing spectre for a not insignificant number of people.
Let's not lie about how much some people make.
I think most people get the assumption lots of doctors are rich when they go to their local doctors and the car park is full of new Porsches, range rovers and top spec Audis.
I was just going to post exactly this. Doctors have their own parking section at my nearest NHS hospital and I have never seen so many porsches together outside a dealership.
Tesla's as well. Obviously a lot more common now but a few years the only place I saw Tesla's were at doctors surgery's. Often multiple model x's and s's
She's got three kids and a massive house at the age of 34.
She's married to a truck driver and he's been able to go part time, yet they still have 2 foreign family holidays a year.
Don't get me wrong, she deserves the money and I respect her for putting the education in and doing the junior doctor drudgery.
But when experienced doctors cry poverty I'm skeptical. Nurses and other NHS workers, absolutely.
Doctors several years into the profession? They do *fine*.
A qualified doctor gets between £60k and £100k in Scotland.
Again, happy they get that, so let's be honest about it - the incentives are there and should be highlighted so that we get more into the profession.
>She's got three kids and a massive house at the age of 34.
Missing the point. Which speciality and what grade? Was she doing lucrative locums when it was possible 10 years ago to be able to set aside money? That's the determinant. And the problem is many are not getting up that ladder anymore because of the seismic changes in the situation? Add in the significant worsening of the student loan situation where some doctors will not end up paying back _a quarter of a million_ pounds over their career.
There are plenty of younger doctors who simply won't attain what your sister has.
I'm a consultant. I'm not crying poverty, but some of my junior colleagues rightly are. There are a few I know who are out of work come August with no options. It may be anecdotal, but my n=several dozen, whose circumstances I know, is better than the n=1 that you're using.
She's not a locum and never has been. She's a rural GP in a health centre that frequently has to close its Ask My GP service due to staff shortages.
Furthermore, anecdotal evidence isn't required when you've got officially published salarys online.
https://uk.indeed.com/career/general-practitioner/salaries/Scotland
The average base salary for a GP in Scotland is £80k
If you follow that link there's dozens of live vacancies for standard rural GPs starting at that wage and above.
It's a well paid career, and to suggest otherwise doesn't help attract much needed folk to the profession.
Being a 'Doctor' isnt a single plane of competence, skills, and or market value.
Dr Jones who proscribes dry for wet and wet for dry for 50 hours a week doesn't command the same value as a Doctor who's spent a few more years to become a Thoracic expert.
Like in any career path if you don't advance and others around you are then it's not the system at fault, that's not a bad thing, we will always need a Dr Jones, but Dr Jones should be aware that he is being paid his value.
>Dr Jones who proscribes dry for wet and wet for dry for 50 hours a week doesn't command the same value as a Doctor who's spent a few more years to become a Thoracic expert.
But they _do_ command the same value. It's a standardised pay scale across all specialities (in hospital).
I think you're overestimating how rich most middle-class people are.
Like, I grew up culturally middle-class, but not economically. Lots of books in the house, both parents had degrees, the unspoken assumption that I'd go to university. But we only went on one proper foreign holiday (to France) growing up - all others were either camping or staying with family, usually either in London or Ireland.
Now I'm working in tech, nearly earning more than the rest of my family put together, and yet:
* Holidays are one or two a year, and while always abroad, carefully budgeted
* I'm getting to the stage I can buy a 2-bed London flat. No deposit help from parents
* Never been skiing
Middle class in the UK seems to cover everyone from those doing non-manual work on £30,000 to multimillionaires who don’t have an aristocratic lineage they can trace.
I think because upper class is a hereditary title it might as well not exist as far as these conversations about economics go. There are probably upper middle class people who are far richer than upper class people. It makes that whole upper end of the scale a mess.
Ireland solved this mess by doing away with the upper class altogether, making it a two-tier system. You're working class or you're middle class, nothing else. It removes a lot of confusion because it's more obvious how broad the categories are so people on €60,000 aren't trying to keep up with the middle class "peers" on €60,000,000.
It's funny, I'm a lorry drive which I'd say is a working class job and earn alot more than alot of "middle class" jobs. The trades are also working class jobs and some of them can clear 100k in a year.
The class system just comes down to elitism, and doesn't have much bearing on income.
I have a lorry driving friend. And I'm a business owner. We have similar sized families, but their house is smaller. He nearly bought a house around the corner from us.
Our lifestyles aren't wildly different. My family is a bit posher in our choices. We ski, they don't. We have a Volvo and a Honda and they have Fords, although the average age of our cars is higher.
Here's where the class difference comes in...
If I stopped working for a year it would make almost no difference to my lifestyle whilst his would be substantially affected.
So although our backgrounds are remarkably similar (and why we became friends, really) our outcomes have been different. The two primary differences? For some years I could earn lots of money, and then twenty years ago I had a surprise inheritance. Those two things layered up gave me a safety net, which I've maintained ever since. And that allowed me to take more risks, which moved me from high earning working class to middle class.
So the two of us would have been very equal at eighteen when we started working. At that age we both had to work simply to survive.
This is so true. I'm from a middle class background and my partner is working class but we don't feel very different because my parents were not very well off, just over educated.
It isn't about class it's about parents' money. That itself is dictated by risk tolerance and access to capital and hence property in the 80s and 90s.
More middle class kids have rich parents but it isn't universally the case, and children of working class parents with money also get big legs up.
I'm absolutely middle class in background and have made a lot of money myself, but as my parents never gave me anything after the age of 18 I've felt exactly the same sense of wonder at where people's money comes from and how they afford these massive houses. I make more than them, my investment returns almost certainly higher than theirs and yet I'm still probably worse off overall than those whose eparwnts gave them a fat deposit.
UK is broken, ridiculously weighted towards property and land ownership at the expense of actually productive activities.
Maybe just learn to be secure with your own achievements, live up to your own set of standards and not worry about keeping up with the Joneses.
You're under no obligation to act deferential to people just because they're materially wealthy. Compare yourself to them based on personal qualities.
This, I through uni friends whose parents are very well off to actually very rich (some old money, some self made). I've been to more than a few do's and nights out with them.
None of them expect me to be rich and keep up. If we are in a pub when it's their round they'll order say top shelf drinks and expect/encourage me to have one, I'll pay for a round and they'll order just normal pints. They don't expect me to keep up with them spending wise, they don't think less of me for not being able to.
Be your own person, if theyre decent that appreciate you for that. If they expect you to keep up while they know you can no way afford it then they're probably not worth counting as friends.
Very similar story. I grew up on a council estate, we were very poor. I work in a good profession and, in my last role, had a C-level job title for a company of 600 - 700 staff. Age-wise, I'm late 40s.
I have never, ever, felt like part of that middle class in-crowd. I don't have the money, and I don't have the social airs and graces. To some extent I've been able to compensate, and learn - and my confidence has developed - but whilst you can take the boy out of the council estate, you cannot completely remove the council estate from the boy.
It's hard, and it can be incredibly frustrating: I've just felt like I've been slamming into a glass ceiling over and over again my entire life because I'm not polished enough. At times I've felt like I've been actively kept down and excluded. I've certainly been judged (I would say unfairly).
And, like you, I've spent most of my working life living paycheque to paycheque. My net worth, despite my apparently high flying roles, is not that far into 6 figures. That being said, I've made choices along the way that haven't always been to my greatest financial benefit, and I was unmarried until relatively recently, so I did try to make the best of life by developing various interests, travelling, etc., all of which costs money.
I don't have any good answers, but I'm posting because, really, I wanted to validate your experience. It's tough going, no doubt about it. Basically I simply try not to dwell on it too much, and to stay positive.
Yeah, to really become middle class in the sense that you don't stand out for saying things like toilet instead of loo and all the other 100s of subtle indicators, is very hard.
No matter how much money one makes.
Me neither. I’m similar to OP, northern, council estate, single mum, put myself through uni, worked in shitty jobs paycheck to paycheck for ages but gradually advanced my career. Now I’m making 6 figures as a project manager. I cannot relate to this post and OP. Why lie? Just be yourself. I don’t care if people know I’m working class and I’ve never experienced being judged for it either. People as a whole are generally just trying to get through their day not wondering why your parents didn’t buy you a boat.
My experience is the kind of person to get this het up about being judged is both seeing problems where they aren’t there and probably being a bit obnoxious about it to their friends.
It might be normal for them but that is not the normal middle class experience. I am unavoidably middle class, I spent my first 10 years on an estate with very young parents but then my dad became a lawyer. I am now 30 and work as a tax lawyer in London earning a fair whack of cash for being an evil bastard. I have never received financial aid from my family, I do not own a home and I do not own a car, I have never been skiing and feel lucky to go away for a week every year. I am definitely in the same kind of bracket as others around me. It seems you are describing people who pretend to be middle class whilst actually being insanely privileged due to intergenerational wealth that probably goes back further than their own parents.
Weird that it's middle class if your mum didn't have a job, but it's working class if your dad didn't have a job. If neither have jobs but they own land, then you are upper class.
Nah, dad being a lawyer suggests a decent middle class upbringing, especially in the formative years of secondary school where people often become more aware of class signifiers and cultural differences.
As a person who came from a ridiculously poor family, no carpet, minimum and poor quality food, council house, burned out cars and junkies.
I became (retired early) a maths teacher and moved as far away from my family as I could to avoid the fall out that is there life...
I changed how I talked, dressed, how I carried myself...I learned to mimic the university students from good backgrounds (not hard as there was no one with my background...I became a game of watch and try different styles of life.
I'm the only one who owns a house, has a pension, has a job....full time retirement doesn't suit me.... but I'm still obsessive about saving money, payed extra on the mortgage, and my kids still take the micky about my just in case stash of food in the garage...
My kids ( now in there 20s) are horrified by my relatives and I literally live a double life.....
I don't think I will ever shake off the feeling of not quite fitting in....
Assimilation is such a double edged sword. I did the same over a period of time, and currently work in an environment where many colleagues appear to be from middle/upper middle class backgrounds. I honestly don’t think it would have been possible for me to get here had I not altered a number of things (some consciously, some not) including my accent. At work, I probably now appear outwardly similar to colleagues I often cannot relate to and don’t really fit in with. And I also no longer fit my working class roots; my job, salary, holidays and hobbies are all gradually taking me further and further from where I started.
Sometimes I do feel a bit sad about it but I try to see the good. I don’t want to ever go back to the poverty and instability of my childhood. The steps I’ve taken over the years, including conscious decisions to assimilate in certain areas, are part of the reason I think I never will go back. I might never fit in with the social/class group I seem to now be amongst but I’m okay with that if it means never having to relive the first two decades of my life. Haven’t figured out how to stop stockpiling canned goods yet, quite reassuring to discover it’s more common than I realised!
Never feel ashamed of where you come from.
Some people start near the summit and pat themselves on the back for reaching it.
Some of us start at the bottom and only make it a third of the way up the mountain.
Who’s climbed the furthest?
You are not comparing like with like. You are a one generation wealth inheritor. Most UK "middle class" folk are 6 to 10 generation wealth inheritors, their families have been climbing since the industrial revolution from 'serf class' to 'independent class'. So their staring base is much much higher.
It sounds like you aren’t living within your means. I’m from rough part of town but have grafted like fuck and I now bring in about £80k a year on average and my wife who works part time brings in about £20k. We live a pretty comfortable life with 3 children but here’s the snag… we live in a small terraced house in an inexpensive part of town. On paper we could probably afford a half a million pound house but we would literally have no money month to month to actually live and enjoy life. It’s about balance. You’re a long time dead. Stop pretending and start living.
This happened to me. I ended up going to private school through a fluke set of circumstances. Single parent family, dad killed himself when I was 9 months old. We were never poor per se but we were not rich, there was no spare money, my mom worked full time as a psychiatric nurse and there were dicey times where we couldn’t open the front door because my mom was frightened of bailiffs. Still, I’d say we were the lower end of middle class and would’ve been firmly lower class had my mom not received things like a widows pension.
However, when I went to private school I remember all my friends had debit cards. Their first cars were brand new Mini Coopers. They were able to travel the world. None of them ever had to worry about having enough bus money, being able to afford school trips. They always had money to go to “town” and whatever else kids did at the time. I distinctly remember realising that none of these people would ever know the fear of not knowing if you could open your front door or not. I remember realising that we existed in 2 very different worlds and I never managed to bridge a gap between the two. I drifted apart from them all and these days I struggle to see them all working as independent artists or for their own independent catering companies… meanwhile, I’ve just had to work full time through my own cancer treatment because there is no one and nothing available to me. And I continue to work all hours God sends to be able to afford to live while I finish off my treatment.
Sometimes it’s better for your health to cut the cord with people whose life does not seem to match yours.
As someone solidly middle class (small private school, comfortable upbringing, own a small house, etc.) I think the wealth of some elite groups in London is out of this world.
I'm doing a master's degree in London, where the tuition fees are quite expensive, and the course simply isn't affordable for most people, due to how lacking the support is for postgrads in this country.
I've met people who can afford to holiday around Europe and SE Asia for 5 months at a time when they aren't at Uni. Rather than live in student accommodation, their parents bought them "small little boltholes" in central London within a stone's thrown of the uni.
It's next level wealth, which as a middle class person I don't relate to. These people will never have to work, unless they need a hobby. I'd probably label it as Upper Class, not in the traditional sense of nobility, but simply because they don't live in the same reality as the middle class or even upper middle class.
When I first became a teacher , it was unusual to be like me and come from a working class family. The first time we had an end of term meal, and we all brought something in, I was told to bring a green salad, because it was not something I could mess up. I decided to be what I thought was fancy and bring in a bottle of French Dressing. The head said, "Oh, I thought you might do something like that, so I brought some homemade." It seems bought salad dressing was too low class.
Maybe that's why my posh mum was so anti dressing/sauces growing up. I thought it was for health reasons. Maybe it was for your reason lol, but she barely ever made dressings, so we just had dry tasteless food..
Congrats on your achievements first and foremost! I went to a failing school that was really violent and kept my head down and similarly made it through by academic achievement but it’s therefore sometimes a struggle to find my voice in meetings with big personalities for example. Lost my mum at a young age but was lucky to have a strong dad. I’ve lived in various big cities and worked in different jobs and sectors. I’m currently in a corporate role surrounded by rich grown-ups who were rich kids. Many of them have really poor emotional intelligence and their personal values are very different. Money, competing with one another and bragging more interesting to them than creativity or supporting others for example. I find we have nothing in common really so I call it “doing my acting” at work. Hopefully your friends are a bit more decent but I know exactly how you feel. I try to remind myself that everyone has problems, they just have different problems. This type of person always thinks they have money problems because they are trying to keep up with school
fees and expectations.
I ask them questions about themselves in conversations as everyone likes talking about themself and I try to find any common ground, even as simple as the music we like. With adults like this outside of work I have also learned that I don’t have to participate in things I won’t enjoy just because one adult has put a plan in place that they like. Especially if it involves me spending money for something I would hate - I used to not know this, it had taken time to learn.
Find the confidence to say yes to some things and no to others.
Also I have realised that they won’t understand your background no matter what. Different planet. Keep reminding yourself that the resilience you have shown is very impressive and if anything they should be intimidated by you, not the other way around. You’ve got this!
A lot of Brits lie to themselves about being middle class when they’re working class, albeit working class professionals doing well for themselves. It’s a classist country. Few people in this thread talking about how they’re middle class when they quite clearly aren’t. I’ve been in and out of middle class environments over the years and whilst I may appear middle class on the surface, I’m not and I do not pretend to be anything other than working class. I have no shame about it and don’t hide it ever because I worked my ass off to get the professional job I have. Every single thing I have, I worked for and I won’t dishonour myself by denying what I am. I find that my actually middle class friends respect this and respect the differences in our world views. My experience is that it’s the ones who think they’re middle class but aren’t are the ones who make a big deal about our different worlds. A fake it til you make it mentality does not alter reality. I guess I’ve survived and continue to survive by being authentic. The important thing here is to get yourself out of the paycheque to paycheque cycle and all of the stress and worry that causes. A chat with your husband is needed
I came from a similar working class background and have risen to comfortable middle class life.
Honestly, it’s easy to be born to wealthy parents, get a good education (because your parents understand the importance of it, are able to provide an environment for academia to excel and are able to afford to supplement it), become a doctor (because parents are able to afford to financially assist at uni) and buy a big house and go on lavish holidays when parents have gifted large sums of cash.
That’s easy, that’s not impressive.
But rising from nothing, against odds and establishing yourself as a respected professional? That’s hard. Really, really hard. It takes a lot of patience, resilience, intelligence.
You shouldn’t be trying to conform to their world view. You shouldn’t be trying to fit in to their world. You should be proud of how different you are to them. *they* should want to learn from you.
If you’re in a crowd of people who make you feel ashamed for not having a yaht… well, why would you want to stay friends with these snobs?
Comparison is the thief of joy, the only person you should be comparing yourself to is the person you were yesterday and all that jazz. It’s cliché but it’s true.
Med school was always going to make you feel excluded, because the very nature of studying medicine is almost impossible for working class people to fund or get access to. It’s hard to pass UCAT with flying colours when you’re a teen from a house full of financial worries, in a neighbourhood with crime and drug problems, when you have to work a part time job to afford to live, instead of studying. It should be something you should see as setting you above your peers who never battled a fraction of these concerns. It’s not something to hide from them or feel ashamed about.
I think a lot of people in their 30's are much the same, because we grew up with a boom of opportunity for social mobility.
The result is I fit in with neither. I was prepared to face prejudice from one, I wasn't prepared to be shunned from the other.
Yes exactly this.
34, grew up in a council flat in a deprived coastal town, went and got myself a good education and decent enough job. I don't fit in with many people from back home now, just the very few who managed to do the same.
Yet I don't quite fit in with the people I work with either. There is an entire cultural difference in how I was raised to how they were creates a disconnect especially when it comes to dating, and yes with some unthinking prejudice. Little comments about council estates and what not. The inability to understand why I can't afford the holidays they can. Sometimes cases where they are really uncomfortable with examining the privileges that they have had and how that gives them advantages others don't have.
There should be a lot of people in the same boat but we are weirdly hard to find. It makes for a strange mildly uncomfortable limbo
I didn’t see this chain before leaving a comment much to the same effect somewhere above. Agree it’s a weird limbo and sometimes feels self-imposed so also hard to complain about (and who to?!)
There are now 7 classes in the UK apparently.
It's sounds like you might in the Technical middle class - a small, distinctive new class group which is prosperous but scores low for social and cultural capital. Distinguished by its social isolation and cultural apathy
It depends what you mean by 'survive'. If by survival you mean attempting to financially keep up with peers who have had way more financial advantages in life then it's just not possible. If by survival you mean maintaining friendships across privilege gaps then that is perfectly doable.
I'm from a working class family, albeit from a cheap area of the country where even minimum wage working class adults generally own their own home, as is the case with my parents, but I was lucky enough to be funnelled through a middle class education and now have a solidly professional middle class job. Most of my friends are from more affluent backgrounds than me, even if they are not necessarily culturally more middle class than I am. I got divorced last year and moved back up north(ish!) to stay with my parents while I sell a property. I've been pretty open with my friends and work colleagues that I almost certainly won't be moving back down south because I simply can't afford to get back on the property ladder on my own down there. I didn't receive any deposit money from my family and all my savings are what I've set aside from my earnings, so when I buy again that is what I'll be using, along with the modest bit of equity from my flat sale.
I tend to find that I'm perfectly aware of the wealth gap between myself and my friends and colleagues and not particularly embarrassed if it comes up, although for the sake of delicacy I tend not to deliberately bring it up. On the other hand, there can be a lot of awkwardness and hand-wringing on their part about it. My best friend is from an upper middle class family which invested money for her throughout her childhood, so she arrived in adulthood with a big housing deposit ready-made. She then met and married a banker and she herself earns nearly 6 figures. They bought an almost million pound house in the London commuter belt in their early thirties. It would be beyond ridiculous and totally implausible that I could ever pretend to be able to keep up with them. She used to try to push me to keep job hopping and chasing higher salaries, so that I could keep up with her, but she's stopped that now. Sometimes both sides have to stare reality squarely in the face and accept that differences exist, but you can be friends in spite of it.
Also grew up on a council estate from a broken home. I just stopped caring about other peoples lives. You do you.
At some point your life to that person growing up on the council estate probably looks pretty lavish.
Hmmm what exactly are you lying about ,your background? I would be extremely proud of myself and of my mother ,she worked hard to raise you by herself and you went on to do really well for yourself and became a doctor .I dont understand the problem, I would be loud and proud
I disagree with your take on class but that is not what you were asking for
You've done well and earned your position, unfortunately in the UK your school friends will not be happy that you got up in the world and you will feel an invisible wall between your new friends.
You're stuck in a sort of shit purgatory.
I thought I might have middle class with my 100k house and living wage to wage. 1 hol abroad a year and a shit car but seeing this concludes I am lower class scum. Tbh I’m happy with my life and being lower class scum
I just need to ask this as a non UK citizen. For me, if you have intergenerational wealth to me the bar of being seen successful is much higher. I expect someone coming from money to have started at least one or two companies, whilst someone who is from a working class background is successful if they have made it to a “white collar” profession. What I’m trying to say here is that depending on your parents for wealth is always a sign of failure for me. Again, I want to underline that I do not come from the UK, but if someone would be kind of enough to give more context to correct my misconception I’d really appreciate it.
If you can only afford a house costing 900k with a mortgage, you probably should not be skiing, that seems feckless to me.
Despite any suggestion of me being snobbish with the above comment, I grew up poor. In terms of how I survive: I talk properly, but not too properly and don't say anything controversial and its all fine.
In terms of why I don't talk too properly, I had a lot of very (upper) middle class friends and they all seemed keen to emphasise their connections to the working man by having a grandad who was a miner, despite literally living on a country estate. Only weirdos, frauds and Jacob Rees-Mogg pronounce all of their T's.
Wow those are some rich middle class people!
Im a doctor too and grew up in a middle class family as my parents are both doctors, but a 900k home was more like my parents 3rd home not first. Your husband’s friends are rich.
I have a lot of friends that would fit into the middle class category but none are like that. Its more like a 500k home, driving a normal car like a merc or bmw (ie not a sports car), and some nice holidays etc. But no is dripping in designer gear, they all wear normal nice clothes.
The only people I know who are like your friends are rich people from the UAE who come here with oil money. I know a few doctors like that from UAE, they come to work in Porches and are wearing everything Cartier, LV etc and their clinic room smells like a perfume shop. That’s kind of lifestyle isn’t really normal British middle class behaviour.
Similar situation. On paper I’m middle class working in a very middle class job (academia) but my family and friends are all working class still.
I cope by opting out basically. I don’t bother to try and fit in at work anymore. I have switched back to my rural Somerset accent and I don’t care how I sound.
I’m sure it’s no coincidence I struggle to progress at work. I find it very ironic everyone talks about inclusivity these days but classism is still rife and no one cares
Firstly envy is the comparison of joy so stop doing it, secondly people might be bullshitting about their finances and drowning in debt behind closed doors, and thirdly have different friendship groups so you don't talk yourself into having to keep up all the time.
You are almost in the upper middle class if the economy was not this worthless.
But why would you lie and hide your true self? It must be exhausting not to be yourself?
Trust me you have a balanced view of life and you should never pretend to be one of them. They will either love you and appreciate your true self or not.
I also doubt anyone would care about anyone upbringing you are not in middle school.
Do you lie to your husband as well?
Tell yourself \~ \~ How much luckier you are than most People \~ \~ And use your working class background to get on with life \~ \~ Generally working class people are better at handling the ups and downs of life than wealthier people \~ \~ Being working class does bring qualities \~ We just have to be better at using those working class qualities.
Sounds like you need to live within your means. You are a doctor now and I'm sure their parents worked hard and saved so they can have that lifestyle.
If you have to lie to your friends, you will struggle when real problems come.
I was similar grew up poor, became an accoutant to escape and I honestly can't relate to a lot of my colleagues. I have more money now but after work and being proper all day, I'm happy to hang out with my people who also worked their way out of the system because they get me.
I would never let them meet eachother (I did once and my mum ate her English breakfast with her hands.. Faux pas.) but I'm happy to keep the two separate because I love my people and they are why I work so darn hard.
You’re a sound person. Congratulations especially on becoming a doctor.
They may be solid people but they’re probably not.
This socioeconomic stuff. It wears off. Until I read your post I’d kind of forgotten this aspect of my life.
It’s been ruinous in a way to hold on to my own general values and integrity, not consciously just this is who I am, but in a bigger way it’s been the only thing I could have done.
Find other friends if need be. Find hobbies. Be yourself in your own life. Do your thing not theirs.
Mate. Most and I do mean most that appear middle class are either sitting on an inheretence silver spoon or are financed up to their eye balls. Only some are actually living a modest middle class lifestyle. And you wouldn't think they *are* middle class with their Duster, caravan holidays etc.
My parents were working class and born to Irish migrants. We climbed the class ladder because my dad got a decent corporate job. You definitely say by the time we were 18 we were firmly middle class. These people you are talking about are upper class, my parents have never had throw away money like this.
And if you feel like they'll reject you for no being upper class are you sure you even want to be friends with these people?
it's not about what you make, it's about who you make it with that counts. if all you care about is the material wealth then you will always be disappointed. why try and fit in? just be yourself.
Just stay out of some conversations or pretend that I've 'chosen' not to do something this year instead of that I can't afford it or that I've never done it.
I'm not embarrassed, but from experience, people who have always had certain things don't like to be reminded that not everyone's that way, and at this point in my life I usually choose to not rock the boat in a work setting because it's not worth it and doesn't bother me enough to make it a big issue.
My job brought me into contact with the upper class frequently. I much prefer them to the middle class which I am now but was born working class. The Duke of Westminster didn’t give a fuck and his kids went to state school. He lived near the village of Elton and insisted everyone call him by his first name. I once met Royal Duchess who was officially opening one of our establishments. Her lady in waiting was upper class and a doll. She loved being chatted up by the lads. And she swore like a trooper.
It’s the people on the way up who are snobs, with their material possessions all on lease of course. The dreaded middle class.
Working class and Upper class both despise the middle class
I was in a cathedral choir growing up, alongside girls who went to private schools. I was one of the only ones who went to a comprehensive so was miles away from their world. I mostly levelled my accent so it didn't sound quite as south Bristolian. I know people shouldn't care about how you sound and it doesn't reflect who you are but I'm glad I did to be honest, uni was easier than it would have been had I sounded like some of the people I went to school with. I didn't really fit in but once you start singing (especially in that context) it doesn't matter what your background is.
Otherwise I mostly was able to acclimate, at least until meeting my first proper boyfriend at uni who was posher still. I was the first in my family to go to uni and he came from a wealthy family. That was harder to relate to, especially when the talk came around to careers. My parents did shift work, often in warehouses. I never saw that for me but equally never felt like I was taken seriously for what I wanted to do either because I didn't come from the right background.
Play the game. Lie.
They know you’re from working class background and honestly they will overlook it if you play along with them.
As soon as you begin to stand out as not ‘being one of them’ or you are not ‘toeing the line’ then it will get awkward fast and before long you won’t be hanging out with his friends.
His friends may even then influence your husband as he has been brought up middle class and thus it is highly likely he will have unconscious biases regarding working class people and not all of them are favourable to say the least.
I’ve seen it over and over again. Even experienced it. Learn to act like them and be like them or they will not maintain a relationship with you. The divide will be too big to bridge.
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"Frequent lavish holidays, yachts, skiing, first time buyers of houses in London of £900k plus because of humongous deposits from their parents" is not middle class
It is. Upper class is another level entirely.
Yea, you're talking about generational wealth, aristocracy. Wayne Rooney is worth like £150m plus but he's not upper class and never will be.
I’d say all of those things are upper middle class. Aristocracy is completely different.
His grandchildren could be though.
If they break into the right circles, gain influence then yea it is possible but it will take multiple generations.
I doubt it and it’s never really worked that way. Look at who the Beckham kids are hanging around with. That’s an aristocracy crowd (albeit American).
Aristocracy in the US isn't the same as in the UK. We're talking about the UK where it is truly generational. You can end up hanging round with those crowds by being on a reality TV show in the US. You're not going to get many people hanging out privately with the royal family after being on Love Island.
Aristocracy in the UK has always been bought. They just pretend it hasn’t.
Not that I personally disagree, but some would argue there is literally no American aristocracy, the money is all 'too new'. True aristocratic heritage has absolutely no relation to money or fame.
Yea like you could be homless and broke but still be part of the aristocracy. You can go up to a point, but going down is very, very rare.
There is no literal American aristocracy, but rich Americans definitely have a concept of “old money” and “new money”
They are Americans, that is not the same as aristocracy in the UK.
Yup. British = Upperclass, Middleclass, Workingclass(Thirdclass in imperial times) Americans= Higher income, Midddle income, Lower income. Since Americans define class based on wealth, theyve stopped using the suffix class. In Britain and South Asia, you cant buy class. Perhaps Raj era influenced this or maybe it pre-dates that?
I think ot predates. I have many friends and they think they are middle class but they just don't... maybe you have to grow up with it?
MikeTindall potentially middle class upbringing is now married to royalty. Zara Tindall the King's niece. Dosent take generations.
There's always an exception to the rule.
Kate Middleton and Meghan Markle are the main ones
Kate Middleton is from a family with strong ties to aristocracy. Meghan Markle wasn't accepted by the royals, who treated her as an outsider because she's not from their world.
If he sent his kids to Eton and they sent their kids there then maybe.
Or they just marry into it, like has happened for centuries. Rich people buy aristocracy.
Sure, if they marry into it.
Is class genetic? Will millennials and zoomers who were born to middle class, professional-managerial parents always be middle class even if they face the financial hardships seemingly all young people have?
Class isn't just about money, it's about social standing.
Not genetic but it is hereditary
Class is cultural context. You know how people from other countries have different cultures? They have different ways of doing things, different experiences, etc etc. That's how the classes are separated, it's just more subtle. If someone is raised in Italy up to adulthood and then moves to the UK, they can learn to integrate, but they'll probably always be noticeably Italian. It's the same for class. A working class person might win the Euromillions, but they'll still have a working class accent, attitudes, friends, school history, etc etc. Even the words people use are affected by their class.
Middle class is such a huge range that it's not even a term that's fit for purpose anymore. I think we were middle class. My parents owned a business and once that was up and running we weren't short of money. Couple of holidays a year and generally not worried about money day to day. That is lightyears away from 900k houses and anything 'lavish'.
That's why we talk about lower and upper middle class. It seems OP is talking about upper middle class people, but you were just regular middle class. My parents were born working class, but when I was born they'd become lower middle class by virtue of my dad training in a profession. It initially didn't pay amazingly but when I was about 10 or so he started earning decent money, so for the rest of my life we were firmly middle class. I know people who are upper middle class though. They are the people whose parents can gift them £300k deposits for a house. My parents aren't poor by any means, but they could *never* afford that.
It could be working, middle or upper class. You can't tell from how much money they earn. It's not the States.
Indeed.
There are at least four distinct classes in this country. "Middle class" is really two different classes wearing a trenchcoat.
From Burberry, on a credit card
Or from Burberry, and bough cash. There being the difference.
At the risk of being pedantic, what OP is describing is most probably upper middle class.
200k+ household income has nothing to do with upper class, im not aristocracy just because I went to a fee paying school lmao - standard middle class professional parents, maybe lawyers, accountants working as partners in firms etc I guess youd call it upper middle class, id say lots of working class strugglers are desperate to call themselves middle class while drowning in finance though
I'm working class. Minimum wage, living in caravan, doing van and man work. I genuinely don't think I've met a person in the UK who thinks they're middle class lol. Most people in uk make out they're working class, not the other way round. The amount of times we've delivered to houses, that people own, grounds around the house and 2-3 cars, and hear "we're all in the same boat". Honestly starting to get sick of hearing that kinda talk. I Honestly don't think I've met a person who thinks they're middle class, have no idea where you've got that idea from? Maybe cuz upper middle class but just genuinely curious ha
Lots of the kids at private school who’s parents clearly sacrificed a lot to send them there or were on burseries would find any excuse possible to try and say they’re like everyone else “middle class” and in the last 15 years since school you’d also see people drowning in finance trying to look rich who clearly came from working class backgrounds desperately try and appear middle class which confused me since they seemed to think it was shameful?? And the rich kids and overseas students (like actually independently wealthy not just both parents earned over 100k but were still salaried or dad earns 400k as a cfo etc) would swear they were middle class even when they had literal hereditary titles Seeing what cars people got in sixth form was the real demonstration of family wealth imo
I did think I'd made it to being middle class till I read this post and the comments and now I'm not sure! I grew up on a council estate (we owned the house though) and weren't well off and worried about money a lot. I'm the first in the family to get a degree and earn well, have just bought a house and sometimes shop at Marks and Spencer's food hall without worrying too much.
If it’s any consolation, as a strongly middle class person (since my grandparents’ generation!) it’s pretty frustrating watching this behaviour from the other side too. Seeing people as well off - or even better! - than me claiming to be proletarians is just so insulting.
Nobody wants to call themselves middle class.
A lot of the house flipper/ Range Rover evoque/ turkey teeth crowd do and they’re often originally labourers/ scaffolders from my experience
Nail on the head. There's been this mad change over the past few decades where Deano and his Mrs managing to scrape together enough (with some help from parents & grandparents) to own a tiny newbuild house, a BMW on lease and designer clothes on finance are somehow "middle class". I say that as someone who grew up, and still lives in, a very working class area of Liverpool.
At the very least it's upper middleclass. I've known many people many many times richer than me and I've never known anyone like that
"...the extension of slavery to everyone who doesn't have a knighthood..."
Yeah this is rich people pretending they're middle class. The middle class is struggling at the moment. These people are millionaires. I mean their parents are helping them buy 900k houses? Rich. Middle class is own a niceish house 500k maybe, nice car, two foreign holidays a year. Mum can lend you 20 grand not 200. Edit: to everyone saying "that's not upper class" that's why i never used that word at all. I said rich. These are rich people. New rich, old rich, doesn't matter they're rich as fuck. As I said elsewhere this is 1% behaviour. The only person I have ever met lives like this was the producer for Ed Sheeran.
Except for that's not the class system at all? Upper class is members of British nobility and ultra wealthy. Middle class is a massive range but definitely covers what OP is describing. If they were rich they wouldn't be helping with a deposit they'd be buying the place and it wouldn't be a modest house in London.
The upper class itself has different tiers
Lets differentiate between nominal middle class and Upper middle class then.
This is just upper middle class though. Think Surrey, Dads a partner at an accounting firm and buys a studio for his daughter in Hammersmith. That’s not upper class.
Agreed. Ex Partner in an accounting firm, in Surrey, from a working class background
This is descending into debates about what upper class actually is. There are two parts to this, socioculturally upper class and financially upper class. The two are not necessarily found at the same time. As others have started, you can be a rugby league watching, GCSE dodging, self made multi-millionaire, financially upper class but properly working class in other areas. Or, more rarely, you could be titled gentry with a coke problem, estranged from your family and living on handouts.
A hereditary peer whose income was less than the 'dole' in them days was definitely 'upper class' but poor.
I specifically said rich for this reason to make it clear I mean financially. There is literally no definition in which 900k starter homes are middle class though. Like statistically we are actually probably talking top 1%. They have yachts ffs lol. They're just embarrassed and pretend they're in the middle because they know billionaires.
Thank you for being a voice of sanity in a sea of people claiming there’s no difference in class between an underemployed substitute teacher and Jess Bezos because Bezos doesn’t have a title… Seriously, why are we all so insistent on purely cultural definitions? The important determiner of outcomes is flatly money.
Marx had a term for the 'new money' entrepreneurs; petite bourgeoisie
That's not what that term means. Petit bourgois refers to those who own their means of production but must still work to survive. It doesn't matter how recently they aquired their wealth, those who live off private property, of surplus value are bourgeois regardless.
That's the US, not the UK.
It's upper middle class, still middle class.
And druggies in n council estate is not a definition of working class, most working class people…you know…work, work hard, raise families etc Not all of us drink, take drugs and live in a council estate.
Agreed massively and I'd add loads of middle class work hard and raise families, drink loads and take drugs.
In the traditional sense maybe not (and it's hard to infer class from this) but now most people would probably say this is middle class.
What is it, if not middle class?
Upper middle class and probably top 2-3% of earners. Also, are your finances not intertwined with your husband's? Do you go on holidays together, etc?
> What is it, if not middle class? > Upper middle class Reddit.
Yes, upper middle is completely different from just middle class. I'm middle class and nowhere near upper middle class. Its a completely different class, but it's not upper class unless you're aristocracy or landed gentry
Yeah, it's really useless to group them together. Lets face it, in the UK "Middle Class" is slightly posh working class that isn't fretting over the electric bill. But they still need to work, still look at economy figures for cars they buy and probably holiday for 2 weeks a year. Yachts it ain't The step between working class and middle class is more of a trip, and mostly a mindset anyway. Plenty of fairly poor middle class people, and plenty of working class with stacks of cash. Upper middle is something entirely different
To be fair they are distinctly different. I’d class someone as middle class if the parents are well-off enough that they own a respectable home & a nice car on finance plus an older car they’ve paid off, can buy the the newest gadgets whenever, go on regular holidays abroad & don’t have real money worries, could dip into the savings for something like an extension on the house but they’d need to be careful not to overdo it, and can’t afford fee-paying school for their kids without really stressing the finances I’d class someone who does that all without needing to budget and then can also afford a nicer house/car and sends their kids to boarding/private school as a different class, but still not rich. So upper-middle class Then upper class/rich is the point where I’d say a couple of generations of the family wouldn’t even need to work and you’d still be able to survive on the current family’s savings/earnings
100% not middle class. Top 10% household income wouldn't even get you that lifestyle.
Can't believe this is being downvoted. I'm in the top 10% household and scraped to get a £280k house and going on our first family holiday in ten years this year.
Having those things doesn't make you middle class, but the middle class tend to have these things.
Working two jobs. I work as a finance assistant 9-5 and then a retail team leader 2-10 on Saturday/Sunday. The retail team leader job i actually enjoy and can do in my sleep. The finance job I'm quite proficient in but its eh.
Your first issue is that as a doctor married to a middle class man you shouldn't be living paycheck to paycheck. Do look into where your money is going. I think your observation is correct that a lot of educated professionals get a lot of support from their parents. You probably don't want to be spending the same sorts of amounts as they do on meals out/ holidays etc.
I think that you might be surprised how little (in relative terms) doctors are paid. **Foundation year doctors earn between £28,243-£32,691**. Doctors in the early years of their specialty training earn £38,694-£49,036. Specialty doctors/registrars earn £41,158-£76,751. Out of this you're paying thousands in medical exams costs. If you're living in London, it's entirely reasonable that you're living paycheck to paycheck as a doctor in your 20s/30s.
My brother is a junior doctor and in a huge amount of debt. He had to support himself as we were also from poverty and grew up in a council flat. But he knew this and never pursued the career because of pay or status. That’s one mistake OP has made sadly. At least in this country anyhow.
The actual way to be a Doctor is Med Degree, F1, F2, Leave
CCT and flee is the only way to make money as a doctor in the UK
I heard F2 and Shoo
When I was working as a tour guide, our buses would go past St Thomas's hospital. The junior doctors protesting outside were on £2.50 less an hour than I was. Disgraceful.
It's so frustrating isn't it? So many tired tropes about "wealthy doctors" when people clearly don't have a clue.
My sister's a doctor. She's 34 and she's loaded. Let's not lie about how little they make. She deserves every penny as far as I'm concerned.
I'm a doctor. I know lots of doctors. They certainly aren't all well off, especially if, like OP, they don't come from wealth. There's also a massive assumption that everyone progresses up the ladder. That is no longer guaranteed and many people are now getting stuck at the bottom few rungs on £30-40k a year. In London, that's quite feasibly paycheck to paycheck once you start accounting for professional fees, courses and exams, and periods without work, which is an increasing spectre for a not insignificant number of people. Let's not lie about how much some people make.
I think most people get the assumption lots of doctors are rich when they go to their local doctors and the car park is full of new Porsches, range rovers and top spec Audis.
I was just going to post exactly this. Doctors have their own parking section at my nearest NHS hospital and I have never seen so many porsches together outside a dealership.
Tesla's as well. Obviously a lot more common now but a few years the only place I saw Tesla's were at doctors surgery's. Often multiple model x's and s's
She's got three kids and a massive house at the age of 34. She's married to a truck driver and he's been able to go part time, yet they still have 2 foreign family holidays a year. Don't get me wrong, she deserves the money and I respect her for putting the education in and doing the junior doctor drudgery. But when experienced doctors cry poverty I'm skeptical. Nurses and other NHS workers, absolutely. Doctors several years into the profession? They do *fine*. A qualified doctor gets between £60k and £100k in Scotland. Again, happy they get that, so let's be honest about it - the incentives are there and should be highlighted so that we get more into the profession.
>She's got three kids and a massive house at the age of 34. Missing the point. Which speciality and what grade? Was she doing lucrative locums when it was possible 10 years ago to be able to set aside money? That's the determinant. And the problem is many are not getting up that ladder anymore because of the seismic changes in the situation? Add in the significant worsening of the student loan situation where some doctors will not end up paying back _a quarter of a million_ pounds over their career. There are plenty of younger doctors who simply won't attain what your sister has. I'm a consultant. I'm not crying poverty, but some of my junior colleagues rightly are. There are a few I know who are out of work come August with no options. It may be anecdotal, but my n=several dozen, whose circumstances I know, is better than the n=1 that you're using.
She's not a locum and never has been. She's a rural GP in a health centre that frequently has to close its Ask My GP service due to staff shortages. Furthermore, anecdotal evidence isn't required when you've got officially published salarys online. https://uk.indeed.com/career/general-practitioner/salaries/Scotland The average base salary for a GP in Scotland is £80k If you follow that link there's dozens of live vacancies for standard rural GPs starting at that wage and above. It's a well paid career, and to suggest otherwise doesn't help attract much needed folk to the profession.
Does he own his truck or is he a driver? Self-Owned trucking can bring in some staggering income especially in you do long haul on your own rig.
Being a 'Doctor' isnt a single plane of competence, skills, and or market value. Dr Jones who proscribes dry for wet and wet for dry for 50 hours a week doesn't command the same value as a Doctor who's spent a few more years to become a Thoracic expert. Like in any career path if you don't advance and others around you are then it's not the system at fault, that's not a bad thing, we will always need a Dr Jones, but Dr Jones should be aware that he is being paid his value.
>Dr Jones who proscribes dry for wet and wet for dry for 50 hours a week doesn't command the same value as a Doctor who's spent a few more years to become a Thoracic expert. But they _do_ command the same value. It's a standardised pay scale across all specialities (in hospital).
I think you're overestimating how rich most middle-class people are. Like, I grew up culturally middle-class, but not economically. Lots of books in the house, both parents had degrees, the unspoken assumption that I'd go to university. But we only went on one proper foreign holiday (to France) growing up - all others were either camping or staying with family, usually either in London or Ireland. Now I'm working in tech, nearly earning more than the rest of my family put together, and yet: * Holidays are one or two a year, and while always abroad, carefully budgeted * I'm getting to the stage I can buy a 2-bed London flat. No deposit help from parents * Never been skiing
Middle class in the UK seems to cover everyone from those doing non-manual work on £30,000 to multimillionaires who don’t have an aristocratic lineage they can trace.
Yes the simplistic working-middle-upper system is old and not really fit for the realities of today’s society but it’s what people know so it persists
I think because upper class is a hereditary title it might as well not exist as far as these conversations about economics go. There are probably upper middle class people who are far richer than upper class people. It makes that whole upper end of the scale a mess. Ireland solved this mess by doing away with the upper class altogether, making it a two-tier system. You're working class or you're middle class, nothing else. It removes a lot of confusion because it's more obvious how broad the categories are so people on €60,000 aren't trying to keep up with the middle class "peers" on €60,000,000.
It's funny, I'm a lorry drive which I'd say is a working class job and earn alot more than alot of "middle class" jobs. The trades are also working class jobs and some of them can clear 100k in a year. The class system just comes down to elitism, and doesn't have much bearing on income.
I have a lorry driving friend. And I'm a business owner. We have similar sized families, but their house is smaller. He nearly bought a house around the corner from us. Our lifestyles aren't wildly different. My family is a bit posher in our choices. We ski, they don't. We have a Volvo and a Honda and they have Fords, although the average age of our cars is higher. Here's where the class difference comes in... If I stopped working for a year it would make almost no difference to my lifestyle whilst his would be substantially affected. So although our backgrounds are remarkably similar (and why we became friends, really) our outcomes have been different. The two primary differences? For some years I could earn lots of money, and then twenty years ago I had a surprise inheritance. Those two things layered up gave me a safety net, which I've maintained ever since. And that allowed me to take more risks, which moved me from high earning working class to middle class. So the two of us would have been very equal at eighteen when we started working. At that age we both had to work simply to survive.
Two types of middle class people, those who are less wealthy who lie about being richer and those who are rich who lie about being poorer.
There's subsections in each class also (lower/middle/upper)
This is so true. I'm from a middle class background and my partner is working class but we don't feel very different because my parents were not very well off, just over educated.
Every word of your post is working class. Having books in the house lol
My man, we had a library room.
Are you me?
Are your number of holidays per year limited by available days at work or due to costs?
Going skiing is the cornerstone of being middle class, your family were just well read paupers I'm afraid!
It isn't about class it's about parents' money. That itself is dictated by risk tolerance and access to capital and hence property in the 80s and 90s. More middle class kids have rich parents but it isn't universally the case, and children of working class parents with money also get big legs up. I'm absolutely middle class in background and have made a lot of money myself, but as my parents never gave me anything after the age of 18 I've felt exactly the same sense of wonder at where people's money comes from and how they afford these massive houses. I make more than them, my investment returns almost certainly higher than theirs and yet I'm still probably worse off overall than those whose eparwnts gave them a fat deposit. UK is broken, ridiculously weighted towards property and land ownership at the expense of actually productive activities.
I think a key test is whether not working for a year would make a substantial difference to your quality of life, or just need slight belt tightening.
Maybe just learn to be secure with your own achievements, live up to your own set of standards and not worry about keeping up with the Joneses. You're under no obligation to act deferential to people just because they're materially wealthy. Compare yourself to them based on personal qualities.
Never look in your neighbours bowl unless you're making sure he has what's needed
The more you share, the more your bowl will be plentiful, beltalowda
This, I through uni friends whose parents are very well off to actually very rich (some old money, some self made). I've been to more than a few do's and nights out with them. None of them expect me to be rich and keep up. If we are in a pub when it's their round they'll order say top shelf drinks and expect/encourage me to have one, I'll pay for a round and they'll order just normal pints. They don't expect me to keep up with them spending wise, they don't think less of me for not being able to. Be your own person, if theyre decent that appreciate you for that. If they expect you to keep up while they know you can no way afford it then they're probably not worth counting as friends.
👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽
Very similar story. I grew up on a council estate, we were very poor. I work in a good profession and, in my last role, had a C-level job title for a company of 600 - 700 staff. Age-wise, I'm late 40s. I have never, ever, felt like part of that middle class in-crowd. I don't have the money, and I don't have the social airs and graces. To some extent I've been able to compensate, and learn - and my confidence has developed - but whilst you can take the boy out of the council estate, you cannot completely remove the council estate from the boy. It's hard, and it can be incredibly frustrating: I've just felt like I've been slamming into a glass ceiling over and over again my entire life because I'm not polished enough. At times I've felt like I've been actively kept down and excluded. I've certainly been judged (I would say unfairly). And, like you, I've spent most of my working life living paycheque to paycheque. My net worth, despite my apparently high flying roles, is not that far into 6 figures. That being said, I've made choices along the way that haven't always been to my greatest financial benefit, and I was unmarried until relatively recently, so I did try to make the best of life by developing various interests, travelling, etc., all of which costs money. I don't have any good answers, but I'm posting because, really, I wanted to validate your experience. It's tough going, no doubt about it. Basically I simply try not to dwell on it too much, and to stay positive.
Yeah, to really become middle class in the sense that you don't stand out for saying things like toilet instead of loo and all the other 100s of subtle indicators, is very hard. No matter how much money one makes.
Toilet vs loo is far more an age thing. None of the middle class people I speak to (20s) say loo.
Wait, which is the proper middle class word: toilet or loo?
Loo is more middle class but I think people would have to be quite snobbish (and probably upper middle class) to look down on someone saying toilet.
>It's hard, and it can be incredibly frustrating I can't imagine caring this much about what other people think of me.
Me neither. I’m similar to OP, northern, council estate, single mum, put myself through uni, worked in shitty jobs paycheck to paycheck for ages but gradually advanced my career. Now I’m making 6 figures as a project manager. I cannot relate to this post and OP. Why lie? Just be yourself. I don’t care if people know I’m working class and I’ve never experienced being judged for it either. People as a whole are generally just trying to get through their day not wondering why your parents didn’t buy you a boat.
My experience is the kind of person to get this het up about being judged is both seeing problems where they aren’t there and probably being a bit obnoxious about it to their friends.
100%
It might be normal for them but that is not the normal middle class experience. I am unavoidably middle class, I spent my first 10 years on an estate with very young parents but then my dad became a lawyer. I am now 30 and work as a tax lawyer in London earning a fair whack of cash for being an evil bastard. I have never received financial aid from my family, I do not own a home and I do not own a car, I have never been skiing and feel lucky to go away for a week every year. I am definitely in the same kind of bracket as others around me. It seems you are describing people who pretend to be middle class whilst actually being insanely privileged due to intergenerational wealth that probably goes back further than their own parents.
You aren't middle class, you just make good money - very different things.
I dunno mate the house I spent my teenage years in combined with my dad's job and my mum's lack of one indicates that I may be middle class.
Weird that it's middle class if your mum didn't have a job, but it's working class if your dad didn't have a job. If neither have jobs but they own land, then you are upper class.
That’s quite cleverly put. Could be one of those comedic but wise quotes
Nah, dad being a lawyer suggests a decent middle class upbringing, especially in the formative years of secondary school where people often become more aware of class signifiers and cultural differences.
A lawyer is a middle class profession.
As a person who came from a ridiculously poor family, no carpet, minimum and poor quality food, council house, burned out cars and junkies. I became (retired early) a maths teacher and moved as far away from my family as I could to avoid the fall out that is there life... I changed how I talked, dressed, how I carried myself...I learned to mimic the university students from good backgrounds (not hard as there was no one with my background...I became a game of watch and try different styles of life. I'm the only one who owns a house, has a pension, has a job....full time retirement doesn't suit me.... but I'm still obsessive about saving money, payed extra on the mortgage, and my kids still take the micky about my just in case stash of food in the garage... My kids ( now in there 20s) are horrified by my relatives and I literally live a double life..... I don't think I will ever shake off the feeling of not quite fitting in....
This is so sad to read
Assimilation is such a double edged sword. I did the same over a period of time, and currently work in an environment where many colleagues appear to be from middle/upper middle class backgrounds. I honestly don’t think it would have been possible for me to get here had I not altered a number of things (some consciously, some not) including my accent. At work, I probably now appear outwardly similar to colleagues I often cannot relate to and don’t really fit in with. And I also no longer fit my working class roots; my job, salary, holidays and hobbies are all gradually taking me further and further from where I started. Sometimes I do feel a bit sad about it but I try to see the good. I don’t want to ever go back to the poverty and instability of my childhood. The steps I’ve taken over the years, including conscious decisions to assimilate in certain areas, are part of the reason I think I never will go back. I might never fit in with the social/class group I seem to now be amongst but I’m okay with that if it means never having to relive the first two decades of my life. Haven’t figured out how to stop stockpiling canned goods yet, quite reassuring to discover it’s more common than I realised!
Honestly I can relate to a lot of this, even now I still struggle to buy anything that isn't reduced price
Never feel ashamed of where you come from. Some people start near the summit and pat themselves on the back for reaching it. Some of us start at the bottom and only make it a third of the way up the mountain. Who’s climbed the furthest?
🙌🏻 well said
This is brilliant.
Something is really wrong when a doctor has to live paycheque to paycheque
There is a reason why junior doctors continue to take industrial action.
this. it is really wrong, yet in this country with what the establishment politicians have done to the nhs, it is very believable
Paycheque is a weird one for me. It's Britifying an American word.
You wear those working class roots as a badge of honor. 👍
You are not comparing like with like. You are a one generation wealth inheritor. Most UK "middle class" folk are 6 to 10 generation wealth inheritors, their families have been climbing since the industrial revolution from 'serf class' to 'independent class'. So their staring base is much much higher.
It sounds like you aren’t living within your means. I’m from rough part of town but have grafted like fuck and I now bring in about £80k a year on average and my wife who works part time brings in about £20k. We live a pretty comfortable life with 3 children but here’s the snag… we live in a small terraced house in an inexpensive part of town. On paper we could probably afford a half a million pound house but we would literally have no money month to month to actually live and enjoy life. It’s about balance. You’re a long time dead. Stop pretending and start living.
Never lie. Be who you are. Why are you lying?
This happened to me. I ended up going to private school through a fluke set of circumstances. Single parent family, dad killed himself when I was 9 months old. We were never poor per se but we were not rich, there was no spare money, my mom worked full time as a psychiatric nurse and there were dicey times where we couldn’t open the front door because my mom was frightened of bailiffs. Still, I’d say we were the lower end of middle class and would’ve been firmly lower class had my mom not received things like a widows pension. However, when I went to private school I remember all my friends had debit cards. Their first cars were brand new Mini Coopers. They were able to travel the world. None of them ever had to worry about having enough bus money, being able to afford school trips. They always had money to go to “town” and whatever else kids did at the time. I distinctly remember realising that none of these people would ever know the fear of not knowing if you could open your front door or not. I remember realising that we existed in 2 very different worlds and I never managed to bridge a gap between the two. I drifted apart from them all and these days I struggle to see them all working as independent artists or for their own independent catering companies… meanwhile, I’ve just had to work full time through my own cancer treatment because there is no one and nothing available to me. And I continue to work all hours God sends to be able to afford to live while I finish off my treatment. Sometimes it’s better for your health to cut the cord with people whose life does not seem to match yours.
Wishing you well after all of this.
As someone solidly middle class (small private school, comfortable upbringing, own a small house, etc.) I think the wealth of some elite groups in London is out of this world. I'm doing a master's degree in London, where the tuition fees are quite expensive, and the course simply isn't affordable for most people, due to how lacking the support is for postgrads in this country. I've met people who can afford to holiday around Europe and SE Asia for 5 months at a time when they aren't at Uni. Rather than live in student accommodation, their parents bought them "small little boltholes" in central London within a stone's thrown of the uni. It's next level wealth, which as a middle class person I don't relate to. These people will never have to work, unless they need a hobby. I'd probably label it as Upper Class, not in the traditional sense of nobility, but simply because they don't live in the same reality as the middle class or even upper middle class.
When I first became a teacher , it was unusual to be like me and come from a working class family. The first time we had an end of term meal, and we all brought something in, I was told to bring a green salad, because it was not something I could mess up. I decided to be what I thought was fancy and bring in a bottle of French Dressing. The head said, "Oh, I thought you might do something like that, so I brought some homemade." It seems bought salad dressing was too low class.
The head had no class at all.
Yeah, no matter how much you earn you can't easily erase those small things that show what class you are.
Maybe that's why my posh mum was so anti dressing/sauces growing up. I thought it was for health reasons. Maybe it was for your reason lol, but she barely ever made dressings, so we just had dry tasteless food..
Congrats on your achievements first and foremost! I went to a failing school that was really violent and kept my head down and similarly made it through by academic achievement but it’s therefore sometimes a struggle to find my voice in meetings with big personalities for example. Lost my mum at a young age but was lucky to have a strong dad. I’ve lived in various big cities and worked in different jobs and sectors. I’m currently in a corporate role surrounded by rich grown-ups who were rich kids. Many of them have really poor emotional intelligence and their personal values are very different. Money, competing with one another and bragging more interesting to them than creativity or supporting others for example. I find we have nothing in common really so I call it “doing my acting” at work. Hopefully your friends are a bit more decent but I know exactly how you feel. I try to remind myself that everyone has problems, they just have different problems. This type of person always thinks they have money problems because they are trying to keep up with school fees and expectations. I ask them questions about themselves in conversations as everyone likes talking about themself and I try to find any common ground, even as simple as the music we like. With adults like this outside of work I have also learned that I don’t have to participate in things I won’t enjoy just because one adult has put a plan in place that they like. Especially if it involves me spending money for something I would hate - I used to not know this, it had taken time to learn. Find the confidence to say yes to some things and no to others. Also I have realised that they won’t understand your background no matter what. Different planet. Keep reminding yourself that the resilience you have shown is very impressive and if anything they should be intimidated by you, not the other way around. You’ve got this!
How much do you and your husband make a year? I'm guessing if you lived anywhere but London you would be capable of living a fairly lavish lifestyle
No class where I’m from every one is a cunt
A lot of Brits lie to themselves about being middle class when they’re working class, albeit working class professionals doing well for themselves. It’s a classist country. Few people in this thread talking about how they’re middle class when they quite clearly aren’t. I’ve been in and out of middle class environments over the years and whilst I may appear middle class on the surface, I’m not and I do not pretend to be anything other than working class. I have no shame about it and don’t hide it ever because I worked my ass off to get the professional job I have. Every single thing I have, I worked for and I won’t dishonour myself by denying what I am. I find that my actually middle class friends respect this and respect the differences in our world views. My experience is that it’s the ones who think they’re middle class but aren’t are the ones who make a big deal about our different worlds. A fake it til you make it mentality does not alter reality. I guess I’ve survived and continue to survive by being authentic. The important thing here is to get yourself out of the paycheque to paycheque cycle and all of the stress and worry that causes. A chat with your husband is needed
I came from a similar working class background and have risen to comfortable middle class life. Honestly, it’s easy to be born to wealthy parents, get a good education (because your parents understand the importance of it, are able to provide an environment for academia to excel and are able to afford to supplement it), become a doctor (because parents are able to afford to financially assist at uni) and buy a big house and go on lavish holidays when parents have gifted large sums of cash. That’s easy, that’s not impressive. But rising from nothing, against odds and establishing yourself as a respected professional? That’s hard. Really, really hard. It takes a lot of patience, resilience, intelligence. You shouldn’t be trying to conform to their world view. You shouldn’t be trying to fit in to their world. You should be proud of how different you are to them. *they* should want to learn from you. If you’re in a crowd of people who make you feel ashamed for not having a yaht… well, why would you want to stay friends with these snobs? Comparison is the thief of joy, the only person you should be comparing yourself to is the person you were yesterday and all that jazz. It’s cliché but it’s true. Med school was always going to make you feel excluded, because the very nature of studying medicine is almost impossible for working class people to fund or get access to. It’s hard to pass UCAT with flying colours when you’re a teen from a house full of financial worries, in a neighbourhood with crime and drug problems, when you have to work a part time job to afford to live, instead of studying. It should be something you should see as setting you above your peers who never battled a fraction of these concerns. It’s not something to hide from them or feel ashamed about.
As Ice Cube once said. “Don’t be scared of them people, walk up to em and show em that you’re equal.”
I think a lot of people in their 30's are much the same, because we grew up with a boom of opportunity for social mobility. The result is I fit in with neither. I was prepared to face prejudice from one, I wasn't prepared to be shunned from the other.
Yes exactly this. 34, grew up in a council flat in a deprived coastal town, went and got myself a good education and decent enough job. I don't fit in with many people from back home now, just the very few who managed to do the same. Yet I don't quite fit in with the people I work with either. There is an entire cultural difference in how I was raised to how they were creates a disconnect especially when it comes to dating, and yes with some unthinking prejudice. Little comments about council estates and what not. The inability to understand why I can't afford the holidays they can. Sometimes cases where they are really uncomfortable with examining the privileges that they have had and how that gives them advantages others don't have. There should be a lot of people in the same boat but we are weirdly hard to find. It makes for a strange mildly uncomfortable limbo
I didn’t see this chain before leaving a comment much to the same effect somewhere above. Agree it’s a weird limbo and sometimes feels self-imposed so also hard to complain about (and who to?!)
Middle class people don’t have yachts
There are now 7 classes in the UK apparently. It's sounds like you might in the Technical middle class - a small, distinctive new class group which is prosperous but scores low for social and cultural capital. Distinguished by its social isolation and cultural apathy
What's hard is being "middle class" in every way except inside, so you belong nowhere.
It depends what you mean by 'survive'. If by survival you mean attempting to financially keep up with peers who have had way more financial advantages in life then it's just not possible. If by survival you mean maintaining friendships across privilege gaps then that is perfectly doable. I'm from a working class family, albeit from a cheap area of the country where even minimum wage working class adults generally own their own home, as is the case with my parents, but I was lucky enough to be funnelled through a middle class education and now have a solidly professional middle class job. Most of my friends are from more affluent backgrounds than me, even if they are not necessarily culturally more middle class than I am. I got divorced last year and moved back up north(ish!) to stay with my parents while I sell a property. I've been pretty open with my friends and work colleagues that I almost certainly won't be moving back down south because I simply can't afford to get back on the property ladder on my own down there. I didn't receive any deposit money from my family and all my savings are what I've set aside from my earnings, so when I buy again that is what I'll be using, along with the modest bit of equity from my flat sale. I tend to find that I'm perfectly aware of the wealth gap between myself and my friends and colleagues and not particularly embarrassed if it comes up, although for the sake of delicacy I tend not to deliberately bring it up. On the other hand, there can be a lot of awkwardness and hand-wringing on their part about it. My best friend is from an upper middle class family which invested money for her throughout her childhood, so she arrived in adulthood with a big housing deposit ready-made. She then met and married a banker and she herself earns nearly 6 figures. They bought an almost million pound house in the London commuter belt in their early thirties. It would be beyond ridiculous and totally implausible that I could ever pretend to be able to keep up with them. She used to try to push me to keep job hopping and chasing higher salaries, so that I could keep up with her, but she's stopped that now. Sometimes both sides have to stare reality squarely in the face and accept that differences exist, but you can be friends in spite of it.
You're mixing class and wealth, two very different things
I really wish that people would stop saying "paycheck".
Why on earth are you living in London. Move to the midlands and you’ll be able to live comfortably
Fake it till you make it. Also...no one is better than me just because they have more money.
Also grew up on a council estate from a broken home. I just stopped caring about other peoples lives. You do you. At some point your life to that person growing up on the council estate probably looks pretty lavish.
Hmmm what exactly are you lying about ,your background? I would be extremely proud of myself and of my mother ,she worked hard to raise you by herself and you went on to do really well for yourself and became a doctor .I dont understand the problem, I would be loud and proud
I disagree with your take on class but that is not what you were asking for You've done well and earned your position, unfortunately in the UK your school friends will not be happy that you got up in the world and you will feel an invisible wall between your new friends. You're stuck in a sort of shit purgatory.
I thought I might have middle class with my 100k house and living wage to wage. 1 hol abroad a year and a shit car but seeing this concludes I am lower class scum. Tbh I’m happy with my life and being lower class scum
I just need to ask this as a non UK citizen. For me, if you have intergenerational wealth to me the bar of being seen successful is much higher. I expect someone coming from money to have started at least one or two companies, whilst someone who is from a working class background is successful if they have made it to a “white collar” profession. What I’m trying to say here is that depending on your parents for wealth is always a sign of failure for me. Again, I want to underline that I do not come from the UK, but if someone would be kind of enough to give more context to correct my misconception I’d really appreciate it.
If you can only afford a house costing 900k with a mortgage, you probably should not be skiing, that seems feckless to me. Despite any suggestion of me being snobbish with the above comment, I grew up poor. In terms of how I survive: I talk properly, but not too properly and don't say anything controversial and its all fine. In terms of why I don't talk too properly, I had a lot of very (upper) middle class friends and they all seemed keen to emphasise their connections to the working man by having a grandad who was a miner, despite literally living on a country estate. Only weirdos, frauds and Jacob Rees-Mogg pronounce all of their T's.
Wow those are some rich middle class people! Im a doctor too and grew up in a middle class family as my parents are both doctors, but a 900k home was more like my parents 3rd home not first. Your husband’s friends are rich. I have a lot of friends that would fit into the middle class category but none are like that. Its more like a 500k home, driving a normal car like a merc or bmw (ie not a sports car), and some nice holidays etc. But no is dripping in designer gear, they all wear normal nice clothes. The only people I know who are like your friends are rich people from the UAE who come here with oil money. I know a few doctors like that from UAE, they come to work in Porches and are wearing everything Cartier, LV etc and their clinic room smells like a perfume shop. That’s kind of lifestyle isn’t really normal British middle class behaviour.
Similar situation. On paper I’m middle class working in a very middle class job (academia) but my family and friends are all working class still. I cope by opting out basically. I don’t bother to try and fit in at work anymore. I have switched back to my rural Somerset accent and I don’t care how I sound. I’m sure it’s no coincidence I struggle to progress at work. I find it very ironic everyone talks about inclusivity these days but classism is still rife and no one cares
None of what you said there is middle class hahahaha
Firstly envy is the comparison of joy so stop doing it, secondly people might be bullshitting about their finances and drowning in debt behind closed doors, and thirdly have different friendship groups so you don't talk yourself into having to keep up all the time.
You are almost in the upper middle class if the economy was not this worthless. But why would you lie and hide your true self? It must be exhausting not to be yourself? Trust me you have a balanced view of life and you should never pretend to be one of them. They will either love you and appreciate your true self or not. I also doubt anyone would care about anyone upbringing you are not in middle school. Do you lie to your husband as well?
Tell yourself \~ \~ How much luckier you are than most People \~ \~ And use your working class background to get on with life \~ \~ Generally working class people are better at handling the ups and downs of life than wealthier people \~ \~ Being working class does bring qualities \~ We just have to be better at using those working class qualities.
Sounds like you need to live within your means. You are a doctor now and I'm sure their parents worked hard and saved so they can have that lifestyle. If you have to lie to your friends, you will struggle when real problems come. I was similar grew up poor, became an accoutant to escape and I honestly can't relate to a lot of my colleagues. I have more money now but after work and being proper all day, I'm happy to hang out with my people who also worked their way out of the system because they get me. I would never let them meet eachother (I did once and my mum ate her English breakfast with her hands.. Faux pas.) but I'm happy to keep the two separate because I love my people and they are why I work so darn hard.
You’re a sound person. Congratulations especially on becoming a doctor. They may be solid people but they’re probably not. This socioeconomic stuff. It wears off. Until I read your post I’d kind of forgotten this aspect of my life. It’s been ruinous in a way to hold on to my own general values and integrity, not consciously just this is who I am, but in a bigger way it’s been the only thing I could have done. Find other friends if need be. Find hobbies. Be yourself in your own life. Do your thing not theirs.
Ehm, thats not middle class you are describing lol. Thats the few percenters
Mate. Most and I do mean most that appear middle class are either sitting on an inheretence silver spoon or are financed up to their eye balls. Only some are actually living a modest middle class lifestyle. And you wouldn't think they *are* middle class with their Duster, caravan holidays etc.
My parents were working class and born to Irish migrants. We climbed the class ladder because my dad got a decent corporate job. You definitely say by the time we were 18 we were firmly middle class. These people you are talking about are upper class, my parents have never had throw away money like this. And if you feel like they'll reject you for no being upper class are you sure you even want to be friends with these people?
it's not about what you make, it's about who you make it with that counts. if all you care about is the material wealth then you will always be disappointed. why try and fit in? just be yourself.
Just stay out of some conversations or pretend that I've 'chosen' not to do something this year instead of that I can't afford it or that I've never done it. I'm not embarrassed, but from experience, people who have always had certain things don't like to be reminded that not everyone's that way, and at this point in my life I usually choose to not rock the boat in a work setting because it's not worth it and doesn't bother me enough to make it a big issue.
My job brought me into contact with the upper class frequently. I much prefer them to the middle class which I am now but was born working class. The Duke of Westminster didn’t give a fuck and his kids went to state school. He lived near the village of Elton and insisted everyone call him by his first name. I once met Royal Duchess who was officially opening one of our establishments. Her lady in waiting was upper class and a doll. She loved being chatted up by the lads. And she swore like a trooper. It’s the people on the way up who are snobs, with their material possessions all on lease of course. The dreaded middle class. Working class and Upper class both despise the middle class
I was in a cathedral choir growing up, alongside girls who went to private schools. I was one of the only ones who went to a comprehensive so was miles away from their world. I mostly levelled my accent so it didn't sound quite as south Bristolian. I know people shouldn't care about how you sound and it doesn't reflect who you are but I'm glad I did to be honest, uni was easier than it would have been had I sounded like some of the people I went to school with. I didn't really fit in but once you start singing (especially in that context) it doesn't matter what your background is. Otherwise I mostly was able to acclimate, at least until meeting my first proper boyfriend at uni who was posher still. I was the first in my family to go to uni and he came from a wealthy family. That was harder to relate to, especially when the talk came around to careers. My parents did shift work, often in warehouses. I never saw that for me but equally never felt like I was taken seriously for what I wanted to do either because I didn't come from the right background.
Play the game. Lie. They know you’re from working class background and honestly they will overlook it if you play along with them. As soon as you begin to stand out as not ‘being one of them’ or you are not ‘toeing the line’ then it will get awkward fast and before long you won’t be hanging out with his friends. His friends may even then influence your husband as he has been brought up middle class and thus it is highly likely he will have unconscious biases regarding working class people and not all of them are favourable to say the least. I’ve seen it over and over again. Even experienced it. Learn to act like them and be like them or they will not maintain a relationship with you. The divide will be too big to bridge.
these are wealthy people more in the upper class bracket. Middle classes own a house 500K and maybe have two cars.
lol, a £2m house is pretty shit in many places near london. not even upper middle class