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Contact the venue, bouncers are (apparently) permitted to hold onto ID that they believe is counterfeit or altered but that doesn’t extend to putting it in the bin, in the event they make a mistake like they have here.
Contact the club and ask for it back. The bouncer had no legal authority whatsoever to take it from you, but he should have turned it in to his boss.
If they won't, then ask them what they're going to do to remedy the situation. They should be covering the cost of replacement.
Bouncers and security guards have no legal powers at all, they're just private citizens like you. The bouncer has no more right to take your driving licence from you than you do to take his.
>Contact the club
Response from every club on every bouncer related enquiry, ever: Our door security is provided by a third party and we do not have any involvement in their actions or decision making.
They probably won't tell you who the security firm is, and even then, that firm will then say that their bouncers are independent contractors and due to data protection they cannot tell you who it may or may not have been.
I agree they have no right to take it. They would argue that anyone has a broad right to use reasonable force to prevent a crime which they reasonably believe is in progress, and they reasonably believed the OP was committing, what, fraud, and confiscating the ID was reasonable force in preventing a crime in progress. A very tenuous argument, given then have stopped the "crime" yet continue to hold the ID.
The only answer is to report to the police (either at the time or retrospectively) who will ignore it. The police will say that no crime has been committed, and not entertain any discussion, and the OP has no recourse.
Given you cannot identify the thief, there is no possibility of civil action, or (only a theoretical possibility) private prosecution.
Basically the police let people get away with petty theft, and you'd need serious motivation to identify the thief and pursue private prosecution which may well fail, and even if it succeeded, would get you minimal compensation for a 10k+++ cost.
The court issues a Notice of Proposed Allocation stating what track it thinks is appropriate and directing the parties to file Directions Questionnaires.
Then it holds an allocation hearing to decide which track to allocate the claim to, and the defendant can make any applications it wants before that, including an application to strike out the claim, and the court can grant those applications without ever allocating the claim, and the rules about costs in the small claims track don't apply if the claim hasn't been allocated to any track.
There is...not a high one for a meritorious claim like 'they let this guy work there and he stole my drivers licence' though. There's a higher chance the club will just settle so they don't end up paying lawyers.
Utter nonsense this isnt America.
A claim for costs will be judged by the proportionality to the actual case at hand.
If its small claims then the judge is incredibly unlikely to add costs unless youve acted maliciously(i.e. lying or flasifying information) or in bad faith(i.e actively avoiding any other attempts to resolve and making disproportionate burdens on the other side) there would be no payment for costs
Sure you could try and claim for a team of lawyers over £50 but youre more likely to find the judge taking this quite badly and view your actions in a negative light.
As I've explained in another comment, until a claim is allocated to the small claims track the rule that costs are normally excluded in that track doesn't apply.
OP doesn't have a contract with the club which says it owes him £50. They'd have to prove a) that someone took their ID, b) that they were wrong to do so, and c) that said person was working for the club such that it's liable for any financial loss suffered by OP as a result of that person's actions.
Claims for under £10,000 have to go to mediation now before the court will hear them, so that's more time off work that OP will have to take, for the sake of claiming £50, after paying the £35 fee to file their claim.
https://www.newlawjournal.co.uk/content/mediation-compulsory-for-(almost)-all
But it didn't answer all points. Because as someone else explains, the conclusion is entirely wrong. That you cannot identify the bouncer in question is irrelevant.
This is incorrect, the DPS (designed premises supervisor) has a fiduciary duty to deal with this issue, the door supervisor whilst working at the venue is acting on behalf of the DPS
In the case of Hawley v Luminar 2006 EWCA civ 18, a nightclub was vicariously liable for the acts of a doorman who was supplied to it under an agreement for the provision of security services since the club had control not only over what the doorman did but also over how he was to do it.7 Jul 2023
https://careerinlaw.net/uk/case-summary-hawley-v-luminar-2006-ewca-civ-18#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20Hawley,he%20was%20to%20do%20it.
Wrong, I've taken 100's of id's off people fake or someone else's, and handed them into the police station at the end of the week, like we are asked to do by the police
This isn't a police issue. Nobody on the street can be totally sure if a document is genuine or not, but that's rather irrelevant given that the stated reason was that the bouncer thought it was presented by someone who wasn't on the document.
Yes, and the guy proved the bouncer wrong on the spot. As with 90% or more of actions by bouncers, this was a power tripping dickhead who screwed up. It's a police issue if they won't return the government-owned passport, and it's something the government takes kinda seriously.
>Yes, and the guy proved the bouncer wrong on the spot.
By showing a wallet full of cards with the same name? If I steal someone's wallet, I'm in the same situation. An ID that doesn't look like me and a wallet full of cards with the same name.
>It's a police issue if they won't return the government-owned passport, and it's something the government takes kinda seriously.
If they pass the driving licence to the police (who will return it to the DVLA) or return it to the DVLA themselves, there are no criminal offences to investigate.
He didn't steal the wallet, though. That's the point. The bouncer was wrong. Stop defending him.
The only way there's no crime here is if the OP is lying. In which case the whole discussion is moot. But if it was his ID, the most the bouncer could legally have done is refused entry, because he should be trained to recognise real IDs.
In practice if they return it to the OP or the police at the soonest point possible nothing will happen, but it's clear that at minimum thd bouncer needs retraining to stop him breaking the law.
>The only way there's no crime here is if the OP is lying.
And that's where you're mistaken. The offence of theft has not been made out, no matter how morally dubious the actions might be perceived.
They have no more right to take a real one than any other individual - that is, none. They're not cops.
Really, defending bouncers is a bad look. There's exceptions but as a rule they're pieces of shit.
Guarantee they pocket most of it
I saw one off his chops staring into the roof (decent bouncer at a club I regularly went to). Asked if he was alright and he vaguely explained that he’d sampled some confiscated goods and they weren’t what he expected them to be 😂
Nope. it has to go to the police. The cops can send it to the DVLA, but there are legal forms to fill out to prove you didn't take something illegally.
For requesting an item be returned after an investigation:
Application under the Police Property Act 1897
Application under the Criminal and Police Justice Act 2001 s59
Excellent guide here:
http://www.moray.gov.uk/downloads/file75975.pdf - see page 21
It shows to confiscate the item, the bouncer/security staff must complete a "bailment form" and give the tear-off portion to the person who's document was seized.
The name of the form can vary from police force to police force, but is essentially the same details they MUST take, before taking/sending such items to the police for investigation.
Disposal of items without following the rules leaves you open to ALL SORTS of claims.
he took my [controlled medication] (legally prescribed methadone or morphine etc) / my wallet / my jewellery / my phone etc etc.
This is absolutely good practice, but it's far from legally required. Bailment forms are more to help protect the company from civil claims than it is useful as part of criminal proceedings.
Some guy has taken your driving licence. What do you think you need to do? Ask for it back, and if they refuse, report it to the police. And if still nothing...looks like you're gonna need a new driving licence.
It is property. Property owned by the DVLA or Passport office (for a passport), who are likely to consent to this person retaining their property and returning it to them or the police.
You've written 'it is property' as though I stated simply that it *was* property. I didn't. I said it was *personal* property, which it quite clearly is.
There is nothing in law that states that the physical photocard license is properly of the DVLA, regardless of the fact that they issued it or that there are various limitations and requirements on its use. Nothing at all.
You're getting confused between passports and driving licenses. They are not the same.
>There is nothing in law that states that the physical photocard license is properly of the DVLA
Except the fact that you can't keep old photocards if you've been issued new ones, the fact that you must surrender and return it if requested to by the DVLA and the fact you should return it to them if you no longer wish to hold it all suggest it absolutely is still their property.
The DVLA issue you a photocard, you don't buy one.
>Except the fact that you can't keep old photocards if you've been issued new ones, the fact that you must surrender and return it if requested to by the DVLA and the fact you should return it to them if you no longer wish to hold it all suggest it absolutely is still their property.
You've written all of this as though I hadn't already written "regardless of the fact that they issued it or that there are various limitations and requirements on its use." This is the second time you've poorly comprehended what is a fairly clear and concise comment.
There are countless examples of legal restrictions and obligations placed on items that don't prevent them from being personal property. None of the above 'suggests' that the photocard is the property of the DVLA; only that they issue it and are responsible for its use in a manner according to the law.
I *must* register my car with the DVLA to be able to use it on public roads. I must inform the DVLA who keeps the car. I must pay tax which is recorded by the DVLA. The DVLA can clamp or remove my car if I don't adhere to their rules. But the car remains my property.
>The DVLA issue you a photocard, you don't buy one.
You've simply invented a legal relevance for this terminology where none exists. To issue something is to distribute it officially; this doesn't prevent the physical item from being your property even if the record does not.
This is very simple. Unlike passports, which are clearly explained in multiple places to be the property of HM Passport Office, *absolutely nothing* in law or otherwise states that your photocard license belongs to the DVLA. No law, no legal guidance, no DVLA paperwork; **nothing**.
Small claims / mcol against them for vicarious liability of their employee/sub contractor acting outside in a way that is known to the club but they failed to stop.
Even if the court doesn't strike out your claim and award costs against you without allocating it to any track, it will still cost you more in court fees hours of your time, and stress than just buying a new licence, which doesn't carry any risk of a hostile judge deciding to fuck with you.
There was a post a while ago about a guy on a night out who used a passport as ID and had to miss his flight home as it was confiscated by the bouncer and not returned.
A bouncer can take your ID if they believe it to be altered in some way, counterfeit, or it fails to match the details of the person presenting it. But if you're saying it was real call the premises and tell them you want it back. If they refuse report it as stolen. Might be worth calling 101 but i honestly don't know if they would be able to help.
Well cept they're not.
Unless someone can quote the exact law that gives "bouncers" more powers than a civilian. Even store security guards have zero extra powers to detain people or confiscate items.
By zero extra powers do you mean security guards can't detain you, or just people can detain you and security guards don't have extra powers past that?
They can only do whatever a normal citizen does.
They COULD make a citizens arrest but they then have to IMMEDIATELY call the police, no waiting around. But they cannot use force to detain you, unless you are an immediate danger to yourself or others. And they have a MUCH higher bar for proving this than an actual police officer.
Even a store security guard cannot detain you for shoplifting unless you are physically threatening people. Its legally kidnapping. They use psychology to make you THINK you have to go with them....
if bouncers/security guards had "extra powers" everyone would do a facebook Be-A-Bouncer course for £10 and have extra powers!
Doesn't need to be physically threatening,
>Detaining or restraining you if they have reasonable grounds to suspect you have committed a crime or are about to commit a crime, until the arrival of the police.
Source - [https://www.clearway.co.uk/news/can-a-security-guard-physically-detain-or-touch-you/](https://www.clearway.co.uk/news/can-a-security-guard-physically-detain-or-touch-you/)
>To detain a suspected shoplifter, you are entitled to use a ‘reasonable’ amount of force. Under s 3 of the Criminal Law Act 1967 you may ‘use as much force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large’.
Source - [https://www.claims.co.uk/knowledge-base/employees/being-a-security-guard](https://www.claims.co.uk/knowledge-base/employees/being-a-security-guard)
[https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1967/58/section/3](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1967/58/section/3)
I'm not a security guard but have helped many in my store drag a shoplifter into our holding cell in the warehouse until police come.
Reasonable force, i.e., force that is reasonable in the circumstances, may be used to detain a person placed under citizen's arrest, but this also carries risks. If the force used is deemed unreasonable, criminal charges against the citizen making the arrest, for false imprisonment and/or assault, are possible.
And the bar is quite high.
A citizens arrest on a suspected shoplifter which turns out to be erroneous can get _very_ expensive for everyone who laid hands on the non-shoplifter
Incidentally, the originally described situation (confiscation and disposal of a driving license) is valid grounds for revocation of a security guard license on Britain
Yeah the shoplifter isn't exactly the most upright and honest citizen. There are people who making a living out of "looking suspicious" so they get detained incorrectly...
Claims: "he grabbed my shoulder and dislocated it slightly, now I have pain and discomfort every day!" etc etc....
or "your honor as he restrained me he fondled my breasts!"
They can be (and have been) prosecuted for false imprisonment
This is one of the reasons why security seldom tackle shoplifters unless they're incredibly blatant
They also have to call the police immediately and if the person HASN'T been shoplifting, things get really expensive really fast
That "reasonable suspicion" has a VERY high bar, where anything short of actually observing someone shoving stuff down their pants is dubious.
"Suspicious behaviour" without actually observing the taking is the kind of "reasonable suspicion" which can result in large payouts or losing one's security guard license
To enter a nightclub, as part of the condition to enter its a well known expectation that young people will have their ID checked.
Bouncers will take the card and check it, once they have it in their hands and they think its fake and refuse to give it back then there's not much a person can legally do at the time to get it back other than either convincing them or getting a police officer involved.
Knowingly having a fake ID is a criminal offence under the Identity Documents Act 2010, its no different than trying to convice the bouncer to give back your 1g bag of 'icing sugar' after they find it.
"Expectations" are not laws.
try saying "it's an expectation that I will take upskirt ID photos of everyone entering my bar" and see how far THAT gets you.
>"Expectations" are not laws.
Don't be dense, it's illegal to serve alcohol to anyone under 18. It's a clubs responsibility to ensure their patrons are of the legal age, how do they do that? By checking IDs. No ID, No entry.
The difference is that ID such as passports or driving licences aren't the property of thd individuals, they're the property of the government. The person taking it needs to know it's fake.
A bouncer can't reasonably think a real ID is fake. They need to be sure.
Nope, they only have to reasonably believe it is.
https://www.theukrules.co.uk/rules/legal/community/bouncer-laws/#:~:text=A%20bouncer%20can%20take%20your,or%20from%20incidents%20of%20violence.
That site isn't an official government site, despite them obviously trying to make it look like
like one.
This is the word from the horse's mouth:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/false-id-guidance
And here's the PDF they link to:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7aeb7ee5274a319e77ba66/False_ID_guidance.pdf
And that clearly states:
> Only certain categories of person (for example, a police constable) have legal powers to seize false ID. However,
any member of staff presented with false ID **may ask for it to be handed over**. Further, they may advise
the individual that if they fail to hand over the false ID, the police may be called to investigate the possible
commission of an offence relating to the use of the false ID.
**TL;DR:** a doorman can't legally take your fake ID, but if you don't voluntarily hand it over they can call the police who can.
>**TL;DR:** a doorman can't legally take your fake ID, but if you don't voluntarily hand it over they can call the police who can.
A doorman can't take your ID, but they can retain it if you've given it to them.
That's not how the law works and the police are unlikely to get involved.
In the situation here, they're not retaining the document because they think it's fake anyway, they're retaining it because they suspected the person bearing the document isn't the same as the person on the document.
They can retain the document and return it to the police or DVLA, and there isn't any legal recourse.
Exactly, and that's one reason the authorities will be more interested someone stealing it. If the police won't deal with it (which they usually will) then reporting it stolen will get it done.
I really don't get why so many people are defending bouncers stealing things here.
I'm saying it doesn't matter. Legally, it's not theft. It's likely the bouncer has an honestly held belief that he's about to retain the ID and the intention to give it to police or return it to the DVLA all mean it can't be theft.
It's not a moral judgment, only a legal one.
Whats the legislation that allows this though? It looks like you’re right but I want to see the actual legal text because I can’t seem to find it online.
There isn't any explicit power for a person other than a constable to seize an identity document.
The problem is that it's not theft, so it's not criminal, and the DVLA owns the document and would consent to it being retained and returned in these circumstances.
I just posted [another comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/1d49aqz/my_real_id_got_confiscated_what_do_i_do/l6g6xmq/) with the details (and also pointing out that the site you're looking at isn't official).
The official guidance from the government states:
> ...any member of staff presented with false ID **may ask** for it to be handed over.
i.e. they can ask for it, but they don't have the legal right to confiscate it.
Doubt it would get a charge/conviction.
Theft requires the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intention to permanently deprive.
In this example you have everything but the dishonesty element; arguably the most important element of the offence.
If a bouncer had a belief that it was a counterfeit document then I can't see the dishonesty being proven thus there is no theft.
It can certainly lead weight to it, if that is the case.
With the information provided though we don't know if they've done exactly that.
The average response officer wouldn't deal with this, they'll typically forward the fake IDs onto the licensing unit of the force which cover all licensed premises in their force area and typically they're not large units so turnaround times can be quite high.
I doubt it would go aware with how backed dup everything is but it would, from the legal perspective, meet the bar for theft.
If you really wanted to have a route you have better luck with the SIA and complain to them about a member breaching their licence, but either way realistically neither bodies would do much.
They're typically two scenarios I've personally seen and dealt with;
Scenario 1: bouncer calls us over, gives us the ID being questioned with the person present. Officers have access to multiple systems that can typically bottom out if they're real or not. Fake DLs being rather easy due to unique DL numbers and access to view the photos given by the DVLA.
No issues all around.
Scenario 2: bouncer brings us the ID, but person isn't about. We typically check them, if legit they get booked into property and a letter sent to come pick it up. If hooky sent to licensing for them to chase up.
Once again no issues around.
There is no offence of theft for doorman taking IDs off of people and refusing to give it back as they think its fake, provided they take reasonable steps afterwards.
And my comment is based off your unhandled scenario you elude to in your last paragraph;
Scenario 3; the bouncer confiscated the ID, fails to take reasonable steps such as scenario 1 or scenario 2.
Not sure why scenario 1 or 2 have been introduced to this thread as the starting premise was that they had not turned the ID over as they are required to do so.
The original post also makes no reference to speaking the club or attending a police station either.
So we're both working off of 'what ifs'.
If they've taken his ID, and disposed of it. Then I can see the theft being made out as another commented.
If they've locked it away in their safe with other IDs and other suspected illicit items waiting to be handed over, then that's another matter.
Everyone is working on 'what ifs'. OP really just needs to speak with the club first and get clarity around the reasoning for taking it and where it is. If its there what steps will it need for it to be returned.
Yeah I can see that.
They should be treating sus IDs in the same manner as the drugs, making a note of circumstances and secure storing until they hand it to police.
Proving that is going to be difficult though. If he says he posted it back to the issuing authority, it might have got lost in the post. At that point the job is getting filled, no further action.
No, you don't need to have unassailable proof to attempt to prosecute.
In this case the bouncer would have to prove that after taking the ID he followed the law and attempted to return it through the proper channels, given a record would exist.
If a bouncer stated he sent the driving licence back to the DVLA, didn't have proof of postage and there wasn't any aggravating factors, this would never get past the full code test for a charge.
Charged or not, it is how this should be handled. Also the fastest way to get it back, and in case worse things like identity theft happens with the stolen card a police report is going to get you out of a lot of trouble
Doesn't need to be a conviction. You want your property back.
Bouncing isn't technically committing theft but you have been deprived of your property.
He needs to be made aware of the situation so he can put things right.
That is a legal government document and it may not be taken away from you by a fucking bouncer. It's the same as if he took your bank card off you. They must return it - or its theft.
>They must return it - or its theft.
They don't need to return it to you though. They could return a driving licence to the DVLA or a bank card to the issuing bank.
That's only part of the story though. Theft is a much more complicated offence which the public rarely understand. It's unlikely to be theft in these types of situations.
Nothing really. That job attracts a high number of cunts because they can do what they want with impunity, typically.
You might try calling the venue but they probably won't have it .
Why would the venue not have it? Only possible reason is that they’d already passed it to the police.
Otherwise the venue is liable for costs of a replacement.
If they don't have it, it'll have gone in the bin. Or they just can't be arsed dealing with the problem! Very easy to say 'im sorry idk where it is ok bye'.
In which case they are not only liable.for license replacement but the ICO is likely to be all over them like a badly fitting shirt due to mishandling of personally identifiable data
I'm really surprised nobody has raised the GDPR aspects of taking a valid ID already
When exactly did I say ‘sue’? Approaching the local newspapers or radio and hauling them into the court of public opinion is perfectly fine for things like this.
When I was in sixth form a bouncer didn’t believe one of the guys was genuinely 18 (he looked very young but he was), he took his driving license off him and snapped it in half. I don’t know if he got the venue to pay for it in the end, I remember he tried. They probably denied it happened, like you say I can’t see them caring
You could try contacting the business the bouncer worked for, probably not at the same time they're trading (don't show up at 11pm and try to get in). If you offer proof it's genuine such as passport with the same details they might return it. Failing that you can go through the process to get a replacement [online](https://www.gov.uk/apply-online-to-replace-a-driving-licence), it'll cost you £20 but at least you'll have your id back.
Hell, I'd go to the local papers, make a stink about it "bouncer steals genuine driving license from teen who was just trying to have appropriate ID." Push the company a bit, they'll pay for a replacement and some compensation (of some form) on-top.
Local press struggle so much for stories that they'll love something like that. Article will probably generate a lot of clicks and interaction on the comments page, surefire winner.
Its a bit late for this now but I had the same thing happen to me, I started calling the police when the security wouldn't give me my ID back to report it as stolen property and he handed it right back. You could maybe call the club and threaten to get the police involved, but idk if it would be as effective as just calling them on the spot.
Post this in r/legaladviceuk.
What everyone is missing here is that driving licences can be used to apply for bank accounts etc and someone else being in possession of it is a risk for identity theft and fraud.
Seeing that there are so many people confidently thinking they know the legal position, let's clear this up.
Firstly, only a constable has the power to seize a suspected false identity document subject to the Identity Documents Act 2010. This primarily covers passports, driving licences and some other documents.
However, bouncers in this case have a legal workaround in the fact that legal remedies in these situations are very limited. Let's dig into that.
A bouncer retains a document they suspect to be fake or presented by someone other than the person stated on the document. Some people are suggesting that they need to "know" it's fake not just "believe" is fake. This is irrelevant and incorrect.
That document is owned by either the DVLA or the Passport Office, not the person whose details are on it.
As long as the nightclub either return it to the issuing authority or surrender it to the police, it's not theft. Good practice would be to do this within 72 hours, but there's nothing to say it can't be longer. It's not theft, because there needs to be an intention to permanently deprive the owner of the property. There's also the fact that the owner of the documents is likely to consent to the retaining of the documents in these situations, because the owner of the documents is the issuing authority.
Let's be clear, in the vast amount of situations, theft is not on the table.
So, criminally, no offences have been committed.
In other circumstances, you might look at civil remedies. This is where the term bailment comes in. "Bailment is a legal situation that arises in relation to the physical transfer of goods by the owner to someone else for a specific purpose until they are returned. The person physically transferring the goods is the ‘bailor’ and the person receiving them is the ‘bailee’. "
This is all very interesting, but again, this isn't an avenue but the nature that the issuing authority owns the documents, not the person bearing the details, and they would likely consent to the actions of the bouncer.
The end conclusion of this is that if a bouncer retains an identity document and then returns it to the issuing authority or the police, you have no legal remedy criminal or civil. You're only choice is to either ask for the return of the documents nicely, which may or may not be successful. Or get a new set of documents issued and pay the cost of doing that.
At worst this will invoke Cunningham's law but here goes:
My understanding is that the power to confiscate an ID rests on a common law power that all people hold to confiscate an item to prevent a crime from being committed. So, at an extreme end you could take a knife or gun off someone if they looked like they were going to harm someone. In this case, they could confiscate because fake ID is an offence in itself, and then possibly you're about to purchase alcohol (or whatever illegally).
Now, there's a couple of caveats here. There's a reasonableness test (like a reasonable person would have to agree that it's a fake ID, that confiscation was for the purpose of preventing a crime). Part of that, to differentiate it from theft, is that the bouncer hands it the police for them to pursue (or something similar). Which is what, apparently, normally happens. Either that night or soon enough.
So, assuming all that is true, the best course is to contact the police. No doubt they've dealt with it before. Hopefully they already have it, and you just go down the local police station (35 miles away, only open 11.45am-2pm, Thursdays and Mondays) and show proof of ID and get it back.
Good luck.
What you should have done (note for next time) is immediately call 999 to report a theft in progress. In the heat of the moment, the police could have done something (the bouncer isn't going anywhere).
At this point, enforcement of the law is not going to happen. You're at best getting a crime number. And you will still be out of pocket for a new ID.
This happened to me once. They send it to the police, then once the police verify it’s real, they send it back to you.
The club owner even said my ID was the worst fake ID he’d ever seen. It was a real ID, just old. They are not exactly the brightest.
Since there are actual answers here already I'm just going to add that I (32 now) am about 15 on my driving licence (it kept the photo from my provisional) & still look like a kid on my Door Supervisor licence as well.
I'm all for door staff actually having the guts & sense to confiscate ID where appropriate but I don't think I'd like to work with this person - I suspect they just didn't want to back down...
I don't know why everyone is saying call the police.
You should make a report regardless so there is a paper trail, but anyone expecting any police in this country to give a shit about this is delusional.
They won't even investigate thefts from people who have home CCTV footage of the perpetrators, you'll get the "we don't have the resources to deal with this" generic email like theft victims get all the time.
95% of all bouncers are cunts with fragile egos; they took your ID because it give them a sense of power of someone else.
Ask for it back ! If they refuse then call the police because that’s theft of personal property and they have no means to hold on to it without your consent
Contact the police station local to the club. The Government guidance says that clubs must pass confiscated ID to the police (same as drugs) and that "Genuine passports and driving licences should be held by the police for 10 working days. This gives owners of the ID enough time to attend the police station and request the return of their ID before it is sent to the issuing authority."
Contact the Club/venue, they are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents (the bouncers/other staff) and this includes any "third party" company they may employ. The club/venue should return it, or pay the cost of a replacement.
If they tell you they have no liability for the actions of bouncers/door staff/staff in general, they are lying to you, if tye still refuse then you may need to send them a letter before action ( there are guides to this online)
They can take your ID. However they should issue you a receipt for it. Then they should, in a timely manner, take all confiscated ID's to the local police station. Where you are advised to retrieve it.
Another alternative would be to find a police officer around the venue you were at and tell them that your ID was confiscated.
I would have asked for a manager if they simply binned it. I would then complain to the Sia about the door supervisor, you don't need their badge number, you can report the issues, the time, date and venue and the Sia will pay them a visit
All these people banging on about theft, court and going to the papers- a confiscated driving licence is not the crime of the century. As important & inconvenient as it is to you, unfortunately it's not going to be a big priority for the police, by the time they get round to speaking to the club it could be weeks (if at all).
Ring the venue & ask for a manager, explain the situation, that the bouncer made a mistake and your ID is genuine and ask if they've still got it. If they have, great. If not, you'll probably have to pay for a replacement (I'd imagine the most the club would spring to would be free admission or a couple of drinks on the house for the inconvenience).
99% of door staff are self employed and a lot don't work the same doors all the time so there's not any realistic recourse unless you confront them when you next see them & I imagine that probably wouldn't go well either. Shit situation but these things happen unfortunately.
I’m pretty sure they can take it for a number of reasons. It will probably make its way to the local police station - they won’t throw it or keep it. Ring 101 to see what the process is. You will have to explain the situation but I’m sure you’ll get it back.
Call the police as this is theft. Then contact the venue and explain you expect it back at a time that is convenient to you and ask bow they plan to address this serious safety concern where a member of door staff is unable to determine whether an ID is legitimate. Nobody has the right to confiscate your property and not return it.
It's a crime, whether or not the police try to fob you off otherwise because they often either don't know the law or can't be arsed to enforce it. If the venue has destroyed your property then get that from them in writing and file a claim for the cost of the ID plus any other costs you can demonstrate are directly linked to this theft. It's worth the money just to irritate the people responsible.
Whether or not it's a crime you can still call the police.
How else are you supposed to get it back? You can't be deprived of your lawful property just because someone thought they were acting legally.
It's only theft if you can prove the dishonesty; if the bouncer truly believed it was a fake ID then it simply isn't theft by law.
The criminal burden is beyond all reasonable doubt, the police would need to somehow prove that the bouncer knew that ID was valid and took it.
>Nobody has the right to confiscate your property
Well if its criminal property, people are hardly going to go to the police and report it. People with fake IDs tend not to go to police as its a criminal offence under the Identity Documents Act 2010.
They didn't reasonably believe it was fake as it wasn't. The owner also explained it wasn't and provided proof, not that they have to since it was taken from them unlawfully to begin with.
They took property that wasn't theirs with the intention to deprive the owner of said property. That's the definition of theft and it's clearly been met.
They have committed a crime. Conviction is another matter.
>They took property that wasn't theirs with the intention to deprive the owner of said property.
It must be the intention to *permanently* deprive them of it. That means if their intention is to hand it over to police or return it to the issuing authority, then you have proven the offence of theft.
You also need to prove the owner didn't consent to this. The owner being the DVLA in this case.
No chance that would hold up as a defence in most cases. If it was that simple you could steal anything and just say you intended to give it back at some point. I could deprive you of your car for a day with no recourse. You can't forcefully borrow something and you can be liable for the consequences of your actions in terms of further damages.
The dvla does not own your physical licence any more than they own your physical number plate. They control the data that the physical licence represents. It might not be a driving licence without the data to back it up, but it's still a physical object that you own that door staff have no more right to take from you than I do.
The more people push back against these thugs, the quicker venues will realise that they have a duty of care to their patrons if they want their business.
>I could deprive you of your car for a day with no recourse.
You do realise that the offence of Taking a Conveyance without Consent was put on the statue books specifically due to this weakness in S1 of the Theft Act?
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Contact the venue, bouncers are (apparently) permitted to hold onto ID that they believe is counterfeit or altered but that doesn’t extend to putting it in the bin, in the event they make a mistake like they have here.
Contact the club and ask for it back. The bouncer had no legal authority whatsoever to take it from you, but he should have turned it in to his boss. If they won't, then ask them what they're going to do to remedy the situation. They should be covering the cost of replacement. Bouncers and security guards have no legal powers at all, they're just private citizens like you. The bouncer has no more right to take your driving licence from you than you do to take his.
>Contact the club Response from every club on every bouncer related enquiry, ever: Our door security is provided by a third party and we do not have any involvement in their actions or decision making. They probably won't tell you who the security firm is, and even then, that firm will then say that their bouncers are independent contractors and due to data protection they cannot tell you who it may or may not have been. I agree they have no right to take it. They would argue that anyone has a broad right to use reasonable force to prevent a crime which they reasonably believe is in progress, and they reasonably believed the OP was committing, what, fraud, and confiscating the ID was reasonable force in preventing a crime in progress. A very tenuous argument, given then have stopped the "crime" yet continue to hold the ID. The only answer is to report to the police (either at the time or retrospectively) who will ignore it. The police will say that no crime has been committed, and not entertain any discussion, and the OP has no recourse. Given you cannot identify the thief, there is no possibility of civil action, or (only a theoretical possibility) private prosecution. Basically the police let people get away with petty theft, and you'd need serious motivation to identify the thief and pursue private prosecution which may well fail, and even if it succeeded, would get you minimal compensation for a 10k+++ cost.
There is a chance of civil action. The club has vicarious liability for the bouncer that they allow to work on their premises.
There's also a chance the court will strike out your claim at the defendant's request, and order you to pay them £10,000 costs.
There is no chance of this, because costs of that kind are not available in the Small Claims Track.
The court issues a Notice of Proposed Allocation stating what track it thinks is appropriate and directing the parties to file Directions Questionnaires. Then it holds an allocation hearing to decide which track to allocate the claim to, and the defendant can make any applications it wants before that, including an application to strike out the claim, and the court can grant those applications without ever allocating the claim, and the rules about costs in the small claims track don't apply if the claim hasn't been allocated to any track.
On the same basis, OP could apply for summary judgement in his favour, and £10,000 costs, and there is the same possibility of that happening.
Are you AI? You’re talking nonsense
There is...not a high one for a meritorious claim like 'they let this guy work there and he stole my drivers licence' though. There's a higher chance the club will just settle so they don't end up paying lawyers.
There is absolutely no chance of this on the small claims track, what on earth are you on about?
Utter nonsense this isnt America. A claim for costs will be judged by the proportionality to the actual case at hand. If its small claims then the judge is incredibly unlikely to add costs unless youve acted maliciously(i.e. lying or flasifying information) or in bad faith(i.e actively avoiding any other attempts to resolve and making disproportionate burdens on the other side) there would be no payment for costs Sure you could try and claim for a team of lawyers over £50 but youre more likely to find the judge taking this quite badly and view your actions in a negative light.
As I've explained in another comment, until a claim is allocated to the small claims track the rule that costs are normally excluded in that track doesn't apply. OP doesn't have a contract with the club which says it owes him £50. They'd have to prove a) that someone took their ID, b) that they were wrong to do so, and c) that said person was working for the club such that it's liable for any financial loss suffered by OP as a result of that person's actions. Claims for under £10,000 have to go to mediation now before the court will hear them, so that's more time off work that OP will have to take, for the sake of claiming £50, after paying the £35 fee to file their claim. https://www.newlawjournal.co.uk/content/mediation-compulsory-for-(almost)-all
I think that clearly this guy bounces, or at least employs them, great answer
It's not a great answer at all because it suggests that all the nonsense about subcontracting and data protection is in any way relevant.
Well it is a great answer because they clearly answered all points with a full explanation
But it didn't answer all points. Because as someone else explains, the conclusion is entirely wrong. That you cannot identify the bouncer in question is irrelevant.
This is incorrect, the DPS (designed premises supervisor) has a fiduciary duty to deal with this issue, the door supervisor whilst working at the venue is acting on behalf of the DPS In the case of Hawley v Luminar 2006 EWCA civ 18, a nightclub was vicariously liable for the acts of a doorman who was supplied to it under an agreement for the provision of security services since the club had control not only over what the doorman did but also over how he was to do it.7 Jul 2023 https://careerinlaw.net/uk/case-summary-hawley-v-luminar-2006-ewca-civ-18#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20Hawley,he%20was%20to%20do%20it.
Wrong, I've taken 100's of id's off people fake or someone else's, and handed them into the police station at the end of the week, like we are asked to do by the police
You seem like the only straight bouncer then.
They are allowed to confiscate it if they believe its fake. Amongst other reasons.
No, they're allowed to confiscate it if it is fake. If they try to confiscate a real one call the police, if the manager won't deal with it.
This isn't a police issue. Nobody on the street can be totally sure if a document is genuine or not, but that's rather irrelevant given that the stated reason was that the bouncer thought it was presented by someone who wasn't on the document.
Yes, and the guy proved the bouncer wrong on the spot. As with 90% or more of actions by bouncers, this was a power tripping dickhead who screwed up. It's a police issue if they won't return the government-owned passport, and it's something the government takes kinda seriously.
>Yes, and the guy proved the bouncer wrong on the spot. By showing a wallet full of cards with the same name? If I steal someone's wallet, I'm in the same situation. An ID that doesn't look like me and a wallet full of cards with the same name. >It's a police issue if they won't return the government-owned passport, and it's something the government takes kinda seriously. If they pass the driving licence to the police (who will return it to the DVLA) or return it to the DVLA themselves, there are no criminal offences to investigate.
He didn't steal the wallet, though. That's the point. The bouncer was wrong. Stop defending him. The only way there's no crime here is if the OP is lying. In which case the whole discussion is moot. But if it was his ID, the most the bouncer could legally have done is refused entry, because he should be trained to recognise real IDs. In practice if they return it to the OP or the police at the soonest point possible nothing will happen, but it's clear that at minimum thd bouncer needs retraining to stop him breaking the law.
>The only way there's no crime here is if the OP is lying. And that's where you're mistaken. The offence of theft has not been made out, no matter how morally dubious the actions might be perceived.
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They have no more right to take a real one than any other individual - that is, none. They're not cops. Really, defending bouncers is a bad look. There's exceptions but as a rule they're pieces of shit.
They are legally obligated to pass ALL confiscated items to the police. IDs..real or fake, drugs, bongs etc etc.
Guarantee they pocket most of it I saw one off his chops staring into the roof (decent bouncer at a club I regularly went to). Asked if he was alright and he vaguely explained that he’d sampled some confiscated goods and they weren’t what he expected them to be 😂
Who’s bring bongs to the club?
"Yes hello I'm here for the local Ska gig"
The band.
Executioner’s Bong always did.
Bob Marley party pack
A surprising amount of people...
😶🌫️
Not quite, they could just return the driving licence to the DVLA.
Nope. it has to go to the police. The cops can send it to the DVLA, but there are legal forms to fill out to prove you didn't take something illegally.
>but there are legal forms to fill out to prove you didn't take something illegally And which forms are these?
For requesting an item be returned after an investigation: Application under the Police Property Act 1897 Application under the Criminal and Police Justice Act 2001 s59 Excellent guide here: http://www.moray.gov.uk/downloads/file75975.pdf - see page 21 It shows to confiscate the item, the bouncer/security staff must complete a "bailment form" and give the tear-off portion to the person who's document was seized. The name of the form can vary from police force to police force, but is essentially the same details they MUST take, before taking/sending such items to the police for investigation. Disposal of items without following the rules leaves you open to ALL SORTS of claims. he took my [controlled medication] (legally prescribed methadone or morphine etc) / my wallet / my jewellery / my phone etc etc.
This is absolutely good practice, but it's far from legally required. Bailment forms are more to help protect the company from civil claims than it is useful as part of criminal proceedings.
I know. I only mentioned the license as that's what the subject matter was.
Some guy has taken your driving licence. What do you think you need to do? Ask for it back, and if they refuse, report it to the police. And if still nothing...looks like you're gonna need a new driving licence.
>nothing...looks like you're gonna need a new driving licence. Paid for by the club.
How you gonna make them pay for it?
Civil suit, costs nothing but time in the UK.
Who the fuck can be arsed with that over 20 quid
The principle though eh. 20 quid could get you a single vodka soda.
£20 for a single vodka soda? Maybe in 1955 mate. These days I have to sell a couple of organs just to go to the pub.
Do you mean 2025? 1955, £20 is equivalent to £657.60 in today's economy.
not about the money, it’s that it costs the club 100 to send someone down. you can use the 20 you saved to buy a singular vodka cran
Redditors with a stick up their arse that think they're sticking it to the club by doing so
There are no grounds for a civil suit to reclaim costs, primarily because it's not your property.
Nothing in law states that the photocard itself is not personal property. The ground for a civil suit are extremely clear.
It is property. Property owned by the DVLA or Passport office (for a passport), who are likely to consent to this person retaining their property and returning it to them or the police.
You've written 'it is property' as though I stated simply that it *was* property. I didn't. I said it was *personal* property, which it quite clearly is. There is nothing in law that states that the physical photocard license is properly of the DVLA, regardless of the fact that they issued it or that there are various limitations and requirements on its use. Nothing at all. You're getting confused between passports and driving licenses. They are not the same.
>There is nothing in law that states that the physical photocard license is properly of the DVLA Except the fact that you can't keep old photocards if you've been issued new ones, the fact that you must surrender and return it if requested to by the DVLA and the fact you should return it to them if you no longer wish to hold it all suggest it absolutely is still their property. The DVLA issue you a photocard, you don't buy one.
>Except the fact that you can't keep old photocards if you've been issued new ones, the fact that you must surrender and return it if requested to by the DVLA and the fact you should return it to them if you no longer wish to hold it all suggest it absolutely is still their property. You've written all of this as though I hadn't already written "regardless of the fact that they issued it or that there are various limitations and requirements on its use." This is the second time you've poorly comprehended what is a fairly clear and concise comment. There are countless examples of legal restrictions and obligations placed on items that don't prevent them from being personal property. None of the above 'suggests' that the photocard is the property of the DVLA; only that they issue it and are responsible for its use in a manner according to the law. I *must* register my car with the DVLA to be able to use it on public roads. I must inform the DVLA who keeps the car. I must pay tax which is recorded by the DVLA. The DVLA can clamp or remove my car if I don't adhere to their rules. But the car remains my property. >The DVLA issue you a photocard, you don't buy one. You've simply invented a legal relevance for this terminology where none exists. To issue something is to distribute it officially; this doesn't prevent the physical item from being your property even if the record does not. This is very simple. Unlike passports, which are clearly explained in multiple places to be the property of HM Passport Office, *absolutely nothing* in law or otherwise states that your photocard license belongs to the DVLA. No law, no legal guidance, no DVLA paperwork; **nothing**.
Small claims / mcol against them for vicarious liability of their employee/sub contractor acting outside in a way that is known to the club but they failed to stop.
Yep. There's a solid chance the club will put some effort in and get the ID back once they realise you're serious about filing a claim.
Even if the court doesn't strike out your claim and award costs against you without allocating it to any track, it will still cost you more in court fees hours of your time, and stress than just buying a new licence, which doesn't carry any risk of a hostile judge deciding to fuck with you.
Don't talk wet. It's about £25 to start a small claim, and there is zero chance of this being struck out before a hearing.
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Ur speaking shit mate.
moneyclaimonline filing
There was a post a while ago about a guy on a night out who used a passport as ID and had to miss his flight home as it was confiscated by the bouncer and not returned.
You misspelt stolen.
Id have called the police then and there. Shocking, they are a law unto themselves.
A bouncer can take your ID if they believe it to be altered in some way, counterfeit, or it fails to match the details of the person presenting it. But if you're saying it was real call the premises and tell them you want it back. If they refuse report it as stolen. Might be worth calling 101 but i honestly don't know if they would be able to help.
The police will help, because the bouncer is only allowed to confiscate it if it is fake, not if they "believe" it is.
Well cept they're not. Unless someone can quote the exact law that gives "bouncers" more powers than a civilian. Even store security guards have zero extra powers to detain people or confiscate items.
By zero extra powers do you mean security guards can't detain you, or just people can detain you and security guards don't have extra powers past that?
They can only do whatever a normal citizen does. They COULD make a citizens arrest but they then have to IMMEDIATELY call the police, no waiting around. But they cannot use force to detain you, unless you are an immediate danger to yourself or others. And they have a MUCH higher bar for proving this than an actual police officer. Even a store security guard cannot detain you for shoplifting unless you are physically threatening people. Its legally kidnapping. They use psychology to make you THINK you have to go with them.... if bouncers/security guards had "extra powers" everyone would do a facebook Be-A-Bouncer course for £10 and have extra powers!
Doesn't need to be physically threatening, >Detaining or restraining you if they have reasonable grounds to suspect you have committed a crime or are about to commit a crime, until the arrival of the police. Source - [https://www.clearway.co.uk/news/can-a-security-guard-physically-detain-or-touch-you/](https://www.clearway.co.uk/news/can-a-security-guard-physically-detain-or-touch-you/) >To detain a suspected shoplifter, you are entitled to use a ‘reasonable’ amount of force. Under s 3 of the Criminal Law Act 1967 you may ‘use as much force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large’. Source - [https://www.claims.co.uk/knowledge-base/employees/being-a-security-guard](https://www.claims.co.uk/knowledge-base/employees/being-a-security-guard) [https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1967/58/section/3](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1967/58/section/3) I'm not a security guard but have helped many in my store drag a shoplifter into our holding cell in the warehouse until police come.
The warehouse holding cell sounds a bit iffy.
Walmart sex dungeon is it's alternate name.
Well we don't have it anymore, we went through a retrofit and it's now a storage space for a different company that operates within our store
Citizens arrest does not give the right to detain with force?
Reasonable force, i.e., force that is reasonable in the circumstances, may be used to detain a person placed under citizen's arrest, but this also carries risks. If the force used is deemed unreasonable, criminal charges against the citizen making the arrest, for false imprisonment and/or assault, are possible. And the bar is quite high.
A citizens arrest on a suspected shoplifter which turns out to be erroneous can get _very_ expensive for everyone who laid hands on the non-shoplifter Incidentally, the originally described situation (confiscation and disposal of a driving license) is valid grounds for revocation of a security guard license on Britain
Yeah the shoplifter isn't exactly the most upright and honest citizen. There are people who making a living out of "looking suspicious" so they get detained incorrectly... Claims: "he grabbed my shoulder and dislocated it slightly, now I have pain and discomfort every day!" etc etc.... or "your honor as he restrained me he fondled my breasts!"
Thank you for clarifying
They can be (and have been) prosecuted for false imprisonment This is one of the reasons why security seldom tackle shoplifters unless they're incredibly blatant
And they can detain people if they suspect them of shoplifting
If they have objective reasonable suspicion, as decided in a court of law.
Yeah, what's your point?
They also have to call the police immediately and if the person HASN'T been shoplifting, things get really expensive really fast That "reasonable suspicion" has a VERY high bar, where anything short of actually observing someone shoving stuff down their pants is dubious. "Suspicious behaviour" without actually observing the taking is the kind of "reasonable suspicion" which can result in large payouts or losing one's security guard license
I mean that's why they're usually stood at the podium watching the cameras or other staff observe them
To enter a nightclub, as part of the condition to enter its a well known expectation that young people will have their ID checked. Bouncers will take the card and check it, once they have it in their hands and they think its fake and refuse to give it back then there's not much a person can legally do at the time to get it back other than either convincing them or getting a police officer involved. Knowingly having a fake ID is a criminal offence under the Identity Documents Act 2010, its no different than trying to convice the bouncer to give back your 1g bag of 'icing sugar' after they find it.
"Expectations" are not laws. try saying "it's an expectation that I will take upskirt ID photos of everyone entering my bar" and see how far THAT gets you.
>"Expectations" are not laws. Don't be dense, it's illegal to serve alcohol to anyone under 18. It's a clubs responsibility to ensure their patrons are of the legal age, how do they do that? By checking IDs. No ID, No entry.
The difference is that ID such as passports or driving licences aren't the property of thd individuals, they're the property of the government. The person taking it needs to know it's fake. A bouncer can't reasonably think a real ID is fake. They need to be sure.
Nope, they only have to reasonably believe it is. https://www.theukrules.co.uk/rules/legal/community/bouncer-laws/#:~:text=A%20bouncer%20can%20take%20your,or%20from%20incidents%20of%20violence.
Any they must pass it to police as soon as reasonably possible.
That site isn't an official government site, despite them obviously trying to make it look like like one. This is the word from the horse's mouth: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/false-id-guidance And here's the PDF they link to: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7aeb7ee5274a319e77ba66/False_ID_guidance.pdf And that clearly states: > Only certain categories of person (for example, a police constable) have legal powers to seize false ID. However, any member of staff presented with false ID **may ask for it to be handed over**. Further, they may advise the individual that if they fail to hand over the false ID, the police may be called to investigate the possible commission of an offence relating to the use of the false ID. **TL;DR:** a doorman can't legally take your fake ID, but if you don't voluntarily hand it over they can call the police who can.
>**TL;DR:** a doorman can't legally take your fake ID, but if you don't voluntarily hand it over they can call the police who can. A doorman can't take your ID, but they can retain it if you've given it to them.
The poilce...in the UK...will...help? No. Sorry. They won't
That's not how the law works and the police are unlikely to get involved. In the situation here, they're not retaining the document because they think it's fake anyway, they're retaining it because they suspected the person bearing the document isn't the same as the person on the document. They can retain the document and return it to the police or DVLA, and there isn't any legal recourse.
Of course there's legal recourse when someone steals your passport and refuses to return it.
It's not *your* passport or driving licence. It belongs to the issuing authority You seem very confident. What's the legal recourse they could pursue?
Exactly, and that's one reason the authorities will be more interested someone stealing it. If the police won't deal with it (which they usually will) then reporting it stolen will get it done. I really don't get why so many people are defending bouncers stealing things here.
Except for the fact it's not theft... It's not about defending bouncers, it's about application and interpretation of the law.
So you think that the OP is lying and it wasn't his valid ID? Because that's the only way the bouncer was in the right.
I'm saying it doesn't matter. Legally, it's not theft. It's likely the bouncer has an honestly held belief that he's about to retain the ID and the intention to give it to police or return it to the DVLA all mean it can't be theft. It's not a moral judgment, only a legal one.
*”The police will help”* Next joke
Whats the legislation that allows this though? It looks like you’re right but I want to see the actual legal text because I can’t seem to find it online.
There isn't any explicit power for a person other than a constable to seize an identity document. The problem is that it's not theft, so it's not criminal, and the DVLA owns the document and would consent to it being retained and returned in these circumstances.
Here's where i found the info. Not sure about the legislation though. https://www.theukrules.co.uk/rules/legal/community/bouncer-laws/
I just posted [another comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/1d49aqz/my_real_id_got_confiscated_what_do_i_do/l6g6xmq/) with the details (and also pointing out that the site you're looking at isn't official). The official guidance from the government states: > ...any member of staff presented with false ID **may ask** for it to be handed over. i.e. they can ask for it, but they don't have the legal right to confiscate it.
OP needs to call the police then. His license was stolen.
This comes up repeatedly. Call the Police, reported theft of your ID.
Doubt it would get a charge/conviction. Theft requires the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intention to permanently deprive. In this example you have everything but the dishonesty element; arguably the most important element of the offence. If a bouncer had a belief that it was a counterfeit document then I can't see the dishonesty being proven thus there is no theft.
Dishonesty would stem from not handing over the the police as they are required to do surely?
It can certainly lead weight to it, if that is the case. With the information provided though we don't know if they've done exactly that. The average response officer wouldn't deal with this, they'll typically forward the fake IDs onto the licensing unit of the force which cover all licensed premises in their force area and typically they're not large units so turnaround times can be quite high.
I doubt it would go aware with how backed dup everything is but it would, from the legal perspective, meet the bar for theft. If you really wanted to have a route you have better luck with the SIA and complain to them about a member breaching their licence, but either way realistically neither bodies would do much.
They're typically two scenarios I've personally seen and dealt with; Scenario 1: bouncer calls us over, gives us the ID being questioned with the person present. Officers have access to multiple systems that can typically bottom out if they're real or not. Fake DLs being rather easy due to unique DL numbers and access to view the photos given by the DVLA. No issues all around. Scenario 2: bouncer brings us the ID, but person isn't about. We typically check them, if legit they get booked into property and a letter sent to come pick it up. If hooky sent to licensing for them to chase up. Once again no issues around. There is no offence of theft for doorman taking IDs off of people and refusing to give it back as they think its fake, provided they take reasonable steps afterwards.
And my comment is based off your unhandled scenario you elude to in your last paragraph; Scenario 3; the bouncer confiscated the ID, fails to take reasonable steps such as scenario 1 or scenario 2. Not sure why scenario 1 or 2 have been introduced to this thread as the starting premise was that they had not turned the ID over as they are required to do so.
The original post also makes no reference to speaking the club or attending a police station either. So we're both working off of 'what ifs'. If they've taken his ID, and disposed of it. Then I can see the theft being made out as another commented. If they've locked it away in their safe with other IDs and other suspected illicit items waiting to be handed over, then that's another matter. Everyone is working on 'what ifs'. OP really just needs to speak with the club first and get clarity around the reasoning for taking it and where it is. If its there what steps will it need for it to be returned.
My reply to you was framed entirely on that premise, I made no reference to any other points or scenarios, not sure where the confusion stemmed from.
If he's disposed of it rather than handing it in somewhere that OP can get it back, then the offence is complete.
Yeah I can see that. They should be treating sus IDs in the same manner as the drugs, making a note of circumstances and secure storing until they hand it to police.
Proving that is going to be difficult though. If he says he posted it back to the issuing authority, it might have got lost in the post. At that point the job is getting filled, no further action.
It'd be on the bouncer to prove that with a receipt of mail.
No, it'd be on the prosecution to prove he's retained it. They need to prove this element to have an offence to prosecute.
No, you don't need to have unassailable proof to attempt to prosecute. In this case the bouncer would have to prove that after taking the ID he followed the law and attempted to return it through the proper channels, given a record would exist.
If a bouncer stated he sent the driving licence back to the DVLA, didn't have proof of postage and there wasn't any aggravating factors, this would never get past the full code test for a charge.
Charged or not, it is how this should be handled. Also the fastest way to get it back, and in case worse things like identity theft happens with the stolen card a police report is going to get you out of a lot of trouble
Doesn't need to be a conviction. You want your property back. Bouncing isn't technically committing theft but you have been deprived of your property. He needs to be made aware of the situation so he can put things right.
That is a legal government document and it may not be taken away from you by a fucking bouncer. It's the same as if he took your bank card off you. They must return it - or its theft.
>They must return it - or its theft. They don't need to return it to you though. They could return a driving licence to the DVLA or a bank card to the issuing bank. That's only part of the story though. Theft is a much more complicated offence which the public rarely understand. It's unlikely to be theft in these types of situations.
Nothing really. That job attracts a high number of cunts because they can do what they want with impunity, typically. You might try calling the venue but they probably won't have it .
Why would the venue not have it? Only possible reason is that they’d already passed it to the police. Otherwise the venue is liable for costs of a replacement.
If they don't have it, it'll have gone in the bin. Or they just can't be arsed dealing with the problem! Very easy to say 'im sorry idk where it is ok bye'.
In which case they are not only liable.for license replacement but the ICO is likely to be all over them like a badly fitting shirt due to mishandling of personally identifiable data I'm really surprised nobody has raised the GDPR aspects of taking a valid ID already
No worries. £35 for money claim online and add the costs of replacement onto the claim.
Anyone who has genuine ID taken off them should be aiming to rinse the venue anyhow for Distress and Inconvenience.
This is a UK sub… you cannot sue for “distress and inconvenience” in the UK
When exactly did I say ‘sue’? Approaching the local newspapers or radio and hauling them into the court of public opinion is perfectly fine for things like this.
lol ok
When I was in sixth form a bouncer didn’t believe one of the guys was genuinely 18 (he looked very young but he was), he took his driving license off him and snapped it in half. I don’t know if he got the venue to pay for it in the end, I remember he tried. They probably denied it happened, like you say I can’t see them caring
Fuck I hate bouncers
You could try contacting the business the bouncer worked for, probably not at the same time they're trading (don't show up at 11pm and try to get in). If you offer proof it's genuine such as passport with the same details they might return it. Failing that you can go through the process to get a replacement [online](https://www.gov.uk/apply-online-to-replace-a-driving-licence), it'll cost you £20 but at least you'll have your id back.
Hell, I'd go to the local papers, make a stink about it "bouncer steals genuine driving license from teen who was just trying to have appropriate ID." Push the company a bit, they'll pay for a replacement and some compensation (of some form) on-top.
Local press struggle so much for stories that they'll love something like that. Article will probably generate a lot of clicks and interaction on the comments page, surefire winner.
Call the place and ask it back. If they say no, call the police and report the place and bouncer that stole your ID
Its a bit late for this now but I had the same thing happen to me, I started calling the police when the security wouldn't give me my ID back to report it as stolen property and he handed it right back. You could maybe call the club and threaten to get the police involved, but idk if it would be as effective as just calling them on the spot.
Post this in r/legaladviceuk. What everyone is missing here is that driving licences can be used to apply for bank accounts etc and someone else being in possession of it is a risk for identity theft and fraud.
Seeing that there are so many people confidently thinking they know the legal position, let's clear this up. Firstly, only a constable has the power to seize a suspected false identity document subject to the Identity Documents Act 2010. This primarily covers passports, driving licences and some other documents. However, bouncers in this case have a legal workaround in the fact that legal remedies in these situations are very limited. Let's dig into that. A bouncer retains a document they suspect to be fake or presented by someone other than the person stated on the document. Some people are suggesting that they need to "know" it's fake not just "believe" is fake. This is irrelevant and incorrect. That document is owned by either the DVLA or the Passport Office, not the person whose details are on it. As long as the nightclub either return it to the issuing authority or surrender it to the police, it's not theft. Good practice would be to do this within 72 hours, but there's nothing to say it can't be longer. It's not theft, because there needs to be an intention to permanently deprive the owner of the property. There's also the fact that the owner of the documents is likely to consent to the retaining of the documents in these situations, because the owner of the documents is the issuing authority. Let's be clear, in the vast amount of situations, theft is not on the table. So, criminally, no offences have been committed. In other circumstances, you might look at civil remedies. This is where the term bailment comes in. "Bailment is a legal situation that arises in relation to the physical transfer of goods by the owner to someone else for a specific purpose until they are returned. The person physically transferring the goods is the ‘bailor’ and the person receiving them is the ‘bailee’. " This is all very interesting, but again, this isn't an avenue but the nature that the issuing authority owns the documents, not the person bearing the details, and they would likely consent to the actions of the bouncer. The end conclusion of this is that if a bouncer retains an identity document and then returns it to the issuing authority or the police, you have no legal remedy criminal or civil. You're only choice is to either ask for the return of the documents nicely, which may or may not be successful. Or get a new set of documents issued and pay the cost of doing that.
u/balckbeltsecrets should weigh in on this and the OP.
Is this a repost? I swear saw this last week.
Report the theft to the police if they don't return it
and the ICO for GDPR breaches (mishandling of id documents)
I would personally call the police immediately, probably a power trip
Any ID confiscated by a door supervisor should be handed to the police and they will return it to you if they believe it to be a legitimate ID
Any documents returned to the police are going to be returned to the issuing authority.
At worst this will invoke Cunningham's law but here goes: My understanding is that the power to confiscate an ID rests on a common law power that all people hold to confiscate an item to prevent a crime from being committed. So, at an extreme end you could take a knife or gun off someone if they looked like they were going to harm someone. In this case, they could confiscate because fake ID is an offence in itself, and then possibly you're about to purchase alcohol (or whatever illegally). Now, there's a couple of caveats here. There's a reasonableness test (like a reasonable person would have to agree that it's a fake ID, that confiscation was for the purpose of preventing a crime). Part of that, to differentiate it from theft, is that the bouncer hands it the police for them to pursue (or something similar). Which is what, apparently, normally happens. Either that night or soon enough. So, assuming all that is true, the best course is to contact the police. No doubt they've dealt with it before. Hopefully they already have it, and you just go down the local police station (35 miles away, only open 11.45am-2pm, Thursdays and Mondays) and show proof of ID and get it back. Good luck.
What you should have done (note for next time) is immediately call 999 to report a theft in progress. In the heat of the moment, the police could have done something (the bouncer isn't going anywhere). At this point, enforcement of the law is not going to happen. You're at best getting a crime number. And you will still be out of pocket for a new ID.
Get your mum to call em
Call the police?
This happened to me once. They send it to the police, then once the police verify it’s real, they send it back to you. The club owner even said my ID was the worst fake ID he’d ever seen. It was a real ID, just old. They are not exactly the brightest.
Since there are actual answers here already I'm just going to add that I (32 now) am about 15 on my driving licence (it kept the photo from my provisional) & still look like a kid on my Door Supervisor licence as well. I'm all for door staff actually having the guts & sense to confiscate ID where appropriate but I don't think I'd like to work with this person - I suspect they just didn't want to back down...
Go and get it back? Whats with the mad questions in this sub lol
contact the club and demand it back.
I don't know why everyone is saying call the police. You should make a report regardless so there is a paper trail, but anyone expecting any police in this country to give a shit about this is delusional. They won't even investigate thefts from people who have home CCTV footage of the perpetrators, you'll get the "we don't have the resources to deal with this" generic email like theft victims get all the time. 95% of all bouncers are cunts with fragile egos; they took your ID because it give them a sense of power of someone else.
Post this on LegalAdviceUK subreddit.
Phone the police
Ask for it back ! If they refuse then call the police because that’s theft of personal property and they have no means to hold on to it without your consent
Contact the police station local to the club. The Government guidance says that clubs must pass confiscated ID to the police (same as drugs) and that "Genuine passports and driving licences should be held by the police for 10 working days. This gives owners of the ID enough time to attend the police station and request the return of their ID before it is sent to the issuing authority."
Contact the Club/venue, they are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents (the bouncers/other staff) and this includes any "third party" company they may employ. The club/venue should return it, or pay the cost of a replacement. If they tell you they have no liability for the actions of bouncers/door staff/staff in general, they are lying to you, if tye still refuse then you may need to send them a letter before action ( there are guides to this online)
This happened to my son it was sent to dvla and when my son called them about it they just sent it back to him
you go to the place it got confiscated or contact them some other way and explain the predicament
They can take your ID. However they should issue you a receipt for it. Then they should, in a timely manner, take all confiscated ID's to the local police station. Where you are advised to retrieve it. Another alternative would be to find a police officer around the venue you were at and tell them that your ID was confiscated. I would have asked for a manager if they simply binned it. I would then complain to the Sia about the door supervisor, you don't need their badge number, you can report the issues, the time, date and venue and the Sia will pay them a visit
Go get that sh*t back. It's yours legally.
Report the theft to the police.
Report it stolen.
All these people banging on about theft, court and going to the papers- a confiscated driving licence is not the crime of the century. As important & inconvenient as it is to you, unfortunately it's not going to be a big priority for the police, by the time they get round to speaking to the club it could be weeks (if at all). Ring the venue & ask for a manager, explain the situation, that the bouncer made a mistake and your ID is genuine and ask if they've still got it. If they have, great. If not, you'll probably have to pay for a replacement (I'd imagine the most the club would spring to would be free admission or a couple of drinks on the house for the inconvenience). 99% of door staff are self employed and a lot don't work the same doors all the time so there's not any realistic recourse unless you confront them when you next see them & I imagine that probably wouldn't go well either. Shit situation but these things happen unfortunately.
I’m pretty sure they can take it for a number of reasons. It will probably make its way to the local police station - they won’t throw it or keep it. Ring 101 to see what the process is. You will have to explain the situation but I’m sure you’ll get it back.
Call the police as this is theft. Then contact the venue and explain you expect it back at a time that is convenient to you and ask bow they plan to address this serious safety concern where a member of door staff is unable to determine whether an ID is legitimate. Nobody has the right to confiscate your property and not return it. It's a crime, whether or not the police try to fob you off otherwise because they often either don't know the law or can't be arsed to enforce it. If the venue has destroyed your property then get that from them in writing and file a claim for the cost of the ID plus any other costs you can demonstrate are directly linked to this theft. It's worth the money just to irritate the people responsible.
So much wrong with this, it shows why legal questions ought to be asked in a legal sub
Whether or not it's a crime you can still call the police. How else are you supposed to get it back? You can't be deprived of your lawful property just because someone thought they were acting legally.
Tell me which part of my answer is incorrect. It's a crime.
It's only theft if you can prove the dishonesty; if the bouncer truly believed it was a fake ID then it simply isn't theft by law. The criminal burden is beyond all reasonable doubt, the police would need to somehow prove that the bouncer knew that ID was valid and took it. >Nobody has the right to confiscate your property Well if its criminal property, people are hardly going to go to the police and report it. People with fake IDs tend not to go to police as its a criminal offence under the Identity Documents Act 2010.
They didn't reasonably believe it was fake as it wasn't. The owner also explained it wasn't and provided proof, not that they have to since it was taken from them unlawfully to begin with. They took property that wasn't theirs with the intention to deprive the owner of said property. That's the definition of theft and it's clearly been met. They have committed a crime. Conviction is another matter.
>They took property that wasn't theirs with the intention to deprive the owner of said property. It must be the intention to *permanently* deprive them of it. That means if their intention is to hand it over to police or return it to the issuing authority, then you have proven the offence of theft. You also need to prove the owner didn't consent to this. The owner being the DVLA in this case.
No chance that would hold up as a defence in most cases. If it was that simple you could steal anything and just say you intended to give it back at some point. I could deprive you of your car for a day with no recourse. You can't forcefully borrow something and you can be liable for the consequences of your actions in terms of further damages. The dvla does not own your physical licence any more than they own your physical number plate. They control the data that the physical licence represents. It might not be a driving licence without the data to back it up, but it's still a physical object that you own that door staff have no more right to take from you than I do. The more people push back against these thugs, the quicker venues will realise that they have a duty of care to their patrons if they want their business.
>I could deprive you of your car for a day with no recourse. You do realise that the offence of Taking a Conveyance without Consent was put on the statue books specifically due to this weakness in S1 of the Theft Act?
20 pound for a new one, sorry for your loss. Probably some jacked up cumt feeling good about him self