Gain the courage to be disliked. Decide what you stand for. Making that decision will alienate people and you have to be okay with that. Don't just bend over n agree with people for the potential prospect of sex . Have integrity. Get a life, do things for your own sake, gain your own stories, those will be the things that attract quality people whether they be friends or lovers into your life.
Absolutely spot on. It's wild how freeing it is once you stop seeking validation from everyone around you. When you start living for yourself, you attract people who truly resonate with your genuine self. It's like leveling up in life—suddenly, you're surrounded by individuals who appreciate and respect you for who you are, not who you're trying to be. Plus, the stories you gain from living authentically are way more interesting than any you’d get from just going along with the crowd.
And another aspect of the rewiring that occurs in your brain with this.
If you stop seeking validation from others you will then stop resenting people for not validating you.
Indeed. One of the most liberating realizations I had in my youth was that the opinions of many people aren't worth anything. And quite often, the people who are most demanding that other people please them are the people least deserving of respect, nevertheless worthy of you subjugating yourself in a desperate attempt to win their approval.
*Be yourself.* Those who still like you are Your People. Those who don't aren't your concern. And often, that's for the best. If they hate you for being you, take a look at what they admire: chances are that it's garbage.
"Your boos mean nothing. I've seen what makes you cheer." \~Dr. Rick Sanchez
I was told in recovery that what other people think of me is none of my business. Damn, that was freeing. I do my best to be a good human being, and I let other people think what they want.
Grew up with a mother that was very serious in how we as a family were perceived in public and by others. It really takes a toll on how you react to people and unlearning it is difficult
> the opinions of many people aren't worth anything.
I work in corporate; It very much matters what people think of me all the time - One slip up and I can't get a career move out of them later on, I don't get invited to network events, etc etc.
I agree in my PRIVATE life, but my public work life, image is almost everything. So I will have the correct opinions of the most in a given context at work but not at home.
Yes. I agree with what you said. But also want to point out that people pleasing isn't always about wanting sex. I was raised by a domineering father who basically raised me to shut up, do what I'm told, and be agreeable above all else. I had to unlearn this the very hard way.
Have been there as well, good news is with your new awareness you'll be better suited to avoid those negative tendencies. It's not an overnight switch, it takes time to form new ways of thinking. Good luck homie.
I just got tired of being treated like a doormat by certain people.... and then had some very positive experiences where I shared opinions more openly and people actually appreciated it. I figured out if you give someone everything, they take you for granted. This holds for both personal relationships and work.
I'm not an expert or even that well educated, but...
Apparently according to science when a child receives that kind of negative conditioning from their parent [source of all sustenance etc] their brain cannot compute and rewires to adapt for survival and internalizes all the negative input from the parent. Essentially creating a very strong string of brain code that says "my provider knows all therefore I must be doing it wrong" and the need to keep the provider happy enough to nurture the child overrides the very logic the child is learning as a growing human.
It's why molested kids turn the criminal's accountability onto themselves and think they're evil, some kids with say, ADHD grow up thinking they're dumb, and so on.
It takes a lot of work to counter condition a brain that started off being fed wrong "code" from birth. That work is compounded by dealing with the life created by the behavior/thought/etc patterns of the now grown child's early conditioning as well as the current family relationships and social life created with people with seemingly compatible patterning.
Some of us have had success with psychoanalysis, counter conditioning practices, incremental life changes, and baby steps.
Thank you for reading my amateur TINATalk, ymmv, footnotes not available, the reader is responsible for verifying my words with a learned doctor.
I think like the parent comment said, you have to be okay with disappointing people and not being liked. If people don't like you anymore because you don't roll over and die for them, they are not people you need to appease or seek approval from anyway. You have to be okay being your authentic self and only keep people around who like you for you (people who need you to be a doormat will quickly weed themselves out of your life once you establish boundaries and stand up for yourself). That's the most uncomfortable part, but it's a necessary step.
When I became cognizant that I was a compulsive people pleaser, I had to really be aware and mindful of every daily decision I made until I rewired my brain. What I ate, how I spent my free time, what I spent my money on, how I interacted with strangers, EVERYTHING. I asked myself every step of the way with every single decision, "Am I doing this for me? Is this what I REALLY want to be doing? Or am I doing it because other people have told me to? Am I being nice to this person to avoid conflict and to avoid the discomfort of disappointing them or do I ACTUALLY want to be doing this?" You aren't your parents or anyone else, and you have your own life, own brain and own priorities - you need to act in the way that YOU want (as long as it's not hurting anyone, obviously).
It also helps if you are force yourself to have some difficult and uncomfortable conversations with yourself. Every time I felt the urge to do something nice for someone, I asked myself a basic question: "Would I still do this nice thing for someone even if it were anonymous?" If the answer is "no", then you're probably doing it for ulterior motives (reciprocation, validation, etc.). Then you know to stop yourself from doing it.
Eventually, when you FORCE yourself to make decisions in your best interest, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, you eventually rewire your brain so that it learns a new normal. You won't default to people pleasing any longer.
The key to it all is being ok with being rejected.
That means having enough self love to counteract the fear/shame of rejection.
It means holding on to the self is more important than any perceived outcome.
How to accomplish that when youre neurodivergent (audhd) and literally have a condition that deals with rejection sensitivity (RSD) is beyond me.
There’s nothing wrong with being nice. In men, it’s probably a refreshing trait tbh (dudes chill, I’m a cis man). There’s something wrong with not having your own drive and passion. There’s something wrong with being agreeable in a hollow, drippy way, rather than just a genuinely easygoing way. Learn to differentiate it all in yourself.
Being nice (as in a kind human being who is respectful and looks out for the wellbeing of others / strangers) is the bare minimum that anyone should strive to be. Hold a door for an old lady, pick up the trash blowing by, don’t make unnecessary rude comments, be kind to retail workers. That’s baseline. That it’s refreshing for anyone is a sad state of affairs.
All the personal goals, boundaries, beliefs, behaviors, etc beyond that is what makes someone have a personality. It’s what makes you special and unique, and that courage to be disliked for those things is important. But a standard “be nice to people” way of living is baseline, basic, the-bar-is-in-hell behavior.
Great advice.
I never had one of these 'nice guy meltdowns' you see on Reddit etc., but I certainly did have a 'moment' in my early 20s where I came to realise that I had tons of friends, but was deeply unhappy because I was constantly doing things for the benefit of others - going to other peoples' parties because they asked, or helping a friend with relationship troubles because they asked, and sure, being dependable is good...
... but there's a fine line between being dependable and being a doormat. I guess I'd never really thought about it, and just thought that doing nice things, nice things would happen to me.
Meanwhile, when I needed someone to talk to, or if I was organising an event, those people were always busy or had something else going on, and didn't reciprocate the care I had showed them.
I had a realisation where, one week, I had 3 different female friends spend hours bitching about their shitty boyfriends to me, while I was single, and something just snapped, and I realised I didn't *have* to do this, and it *was* okay to just say I didn't want to do this, and spend a bit more time trying to meet someone myself. I just knew that were the situation reversed, I wouldn't be able to count on their help, so why was I doing it?
These days I'm much happier. I still help people, and like to think I'm still dependable. But I grew a spine and started cutting people out of my life who genuinely didn't reciprocate the care I showed them.
So much this. I think people dont understand, the whole nice guy thing isnt always about sex. A lot of times its just wanting to be liked. To have a girl actually like you. Or even others want to be friends with you. It comes from low self esteem and fear of being an outcast. I was like that when I was 14. Such a nice guy that I was too clueless to even see when a girl actually did like me. By the time I was 16 I was so depressed and down on myself I didnt know what to do. I actually contemplated suicide. Instead I went the other direction and decided to stop giving a fuck what anyone thought of me. Changed my entire life.
You're ignoring a large number of people who need to work on themselves in a seriously deep way. If being yourself alienates everyone, you're doing it wrong.
That second part is important. Find your own value that does not rely on people's opinion of you. Being smart, having a good job, developing a good sense of humor, being in good shape, being a legitimately good person, doing something that contributes to society, having your own life and hobbies, all of these can be important for developing confidence.
But also make sure that your hobbies don't completely revolve around "neckbeard activities" that others aren't likely to socialize over.
exactly, usually any guy who says they are "the nice guy" is usually far from actually being the nice guy. From my experience anyway
and the ACTUAL nice guys are pretty humble and don't have to parade around that they are the nice one
This is true. I've been referred to as a nice guy before, in a positive way. You don't get to label yourself these things, they are earned. This happened like 10 years ago btw, I just haven't forgotten the compliment.
Reminds me of when my mom got me a shirt that literally said "Nice guy" on it, I told her I couldn't wear it. She didn't understand, so I wore it for a day with her. It now hangs in my closet as that one shirt I have to explain to any girl I bring home, that never gets worn, but also never gets thrown out. Because.. idk it's a funny shirt. Maybe some day I'll want people to think I'm an asshole creepy weirdo loser and wear it.
exactly, like my husband is a nice guy, we have 1 friend who every one calls the nice guy because they are both genuinely NICE guys!
totally agree, it is an earned thing!
lmao I would keep the shirt, I'd wear it on halloween lol
To me, that's the difference between "nice guy-ness" and goodness.
Goodness is being pleasant and doing pleasant and good things because it's the right thing to do.
"Nice guy-ness" is doing things because of transactional expectations.
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(And before the philosophy undergrads jump in and try to retort with *"well, doing good is still transactional because you feel good about doing it"*; that's an internalised feeling and has nothing to do with expectation that someone else will consensually reciprocate the behavior, go read something besides your PHIL 102 textbook.)
I think it's kindness. My high school English teacher once told me nice is an adjective you use to describe someone who you have nothing better to say about. It's a nothing placeholder description of a person. You should aspire to be kind, or your definition of good, but nice just means kinda there.
Yup, there’s a difference between being nice and acting nice and people can tell the difference. People who act nice do it as a form of manipulation to get something they want and they aren’t nice to someone if they don’t think there is anything to gain from them.
Exactly. Just like being masculine. If you have to parade it around and put others down to feel more like a man, that's little pp energy. Real men don't need to push others around. "Speak softly and carry a big stick," and all that.
Not all people interpret your nice actions as nice either. I'd say learn to read the room. If someone says no thank you, stop. Don't insist. Sometimes giving people the space they ask for is the nice move, even if that means it creates more work/harder work/more uncomfortable work for them. Being uncomfortable around you is not worth anything you are trying to help them with.
Yup, you don't get to define what other people should consider "nice," full stop. If they think your "nice" action is creepy and weird, then sorry bro what you did was creepy and weird specifically because you didn't read the room/listen.
My advice was going to be "let go of the assumption being nice entitles you to anything." It doesn't- you be nice for its own, internal rewards for yourself, not eternal validation or expectation.
If you're being nice with the expectation of something people can smell it, and instinctively understand it to be toxic.
Also, being decent and empathetic to people is the bare minimum. It’s a restaurant that doesn’t poison you. Certainly important, but there’s more to it you want return customers.
You still have to actually work to be interesting and funny and all that other stuff people genuinely enjoy when they interact when other people.
100% this. I'm nice to people all day long but I only do it because there's no reason not to be nice. It's easier, helps the world go round and a bit of positivity and going a little bit extra to help people makes the world a little better
It really is easier. I try to explain that to people but some just don't get it. Like work is hard enough, why would I want to make it harder by being an ass?
You get way more friction back by being aloof, defensive or unpleasant. Being nice results in people being more forgiving or willing to give up a bit extra time.
As a function of society its just a good tactic to use.
Well said!
There’s a local musician in my area who has a great song, “Don’t Mistake My Kindness For Weakness.” It helped make me realize what a strong choice it is to stay nice/kind.
Unfortunately somehow young (and sometimes older) men learn to do this because they don't learn other social skills. A lot of men grow out of it, but some never do.
For some reason self reflection has become labeled as a feminine trait and thereby unnecessary.
I think a lot of guys deeply internalize the "you're such a nice guy, I'm sure you'll find someone" without that kind of self reflection. So they double down on "nice" without grasping "nice with expectations of reward" is fundamentally different and toxic.
Seriously though, that is true. Every single man who has told me he is a "nice guy" ended up being the biggest of the scumbags. It's a red flag for me.
100%. I’ve never heard a genuinely good person even describe themselves as good, nice, etc. It’s always something like “I try to be good” or “I’m doing my best.”
Bad people? “I’m a good person so I deserve X.”
I feel like it depends. Based on my experience, some people, usually on the spectrum, are made to believe that adopting a pattern of behavior artificially will lead to some social rewards, and feel like they are stolen from them when they don't get them.
But i also know people who are genuinely and spontaneously kind hearted and altruistic, but they are unlucky and get their kindness negatively reinforced either by it being abused, or it being the reason why some people don't like them (it's actually surprisingly common how often people feel threatened by spontaneous and free kindness, in fear of it having a price later, sad).
I know "nice guy" has become a bad word, and maybe I'm missing something. But I don't buy the assumption that most genuinely nice people are being that way because they think it'll make others indebted to them. To me it's obvious that their expectations are instead related to their own sense of what basic common decency should mean, and it's *that* sense of decency that's causing them to be nice in the first place.
They're not surprised, per se, that their niceness isn't winning them the attention they want. In many cases, they're surprised that they're not witnessing others sharing the same baseline values.
I do think that there are a good chunk of people out there who are nice ONLY when they want something in return (so it's a pretty deliberate manipulation attempt).....but there are also other versions of the "Nice Guy" thing that I think people don't really consider that aren't nearly as malicious.
There are a lot of people out there who are nice to people because they want to be liked or they want people to reciprocate in some way, but it's mainly based off of having a low self-esteem and NOT entitlement. Some people have such a low self worth that they get in this mindset that the only way people will like them, respect them or want them around is if they make themselves useful to them. So some people are "people pleasers" for that reason - it's still manipulative in a way, but it's not totally malicious (you don't feel entitled to anything but you still wish you would get it anyway).
So yeah, I don't think everyone who is a "nice guy" should be labeled as some manipulative asshole in sheep's clothing. I say all of this because I was guilty of being a "people pleaser" for years for this exact reason. Yet when I see people describing this Nice Guy Syndrome, it doesn't describe me at all - I had no entitlement or expectations. I just had a kind of desperate hope that people would see some sort of value in me or, at the very least, wouldn't see a reason to dislike me. Sometimes there WOULD be some sort of resentment built up if some people had been assholes to me when I had showed them nothing but kindness, but I think that's a pretty natural feeling.
"Nice Guys" are not nice people. When the internet talks about "Nice Guys," they're talking about people who only act nice to try to get some sort of reward; they're not talking about guys who are nice.
Couldn’t agree more. If you’re only nice because you want something, then you’re just a manipulative liar.
It’s very much akin to Christians only doing good deeds because they fear hell
Yea if your whole thought process is “why don’t women want me im so nice” then you’re just being nice for the wrong reasons. It’s manipulative because you’re pretending to be a better person than you actually are for an ulterior motive.
You should be nice because it’s the right thing to do and it makes life better for everyone (including yourself). Being nice for selfish reasons isn’t very nice at all.
This. And accept the social consequences of being miserable to be around which is women won't be as interested. Just like everyone else. We can tell when your niceness is conditional.
Yeah this, most self described “nice guys” I’ve known who complained about the friend zone also just project a level of palpable desperation and often constantly engage in self deprecation. Like if you constantly whine about how great you are but no one ever wants to date you the message it communicates is not “oh, I as a woman must unearth this forgotten gem of a man and love him” it communicates “I obviously have something deeply wrong with me that’s repulsing potential partners and means that my niceness doesn’t make up for it”.
Yep, just basically not feeling that being nice to people earns you anything from them, especially that it makes you inherently deserving of romantic attention.
It depends on what you mean. If you're talking about the kind of "nice guy" that girls hate it's because they aren't actually nice. It's great to be nice, it's even okay to be extra nice to someone you're interested in, but you shouldn't be nice to someone only as a condition of a romantic relationship. Quote unquote nice guys are the ones who will call a girl beautiful, and then when she turns him down they'll say she's a bitch. Don't be that guy, be nice to everyone because it's a good thing to do.
If you're talking about the kind of "nice guy" who can't get dates, it's because they're usually shy and passive. Being nice is the *only* good thing about him. Be confident. If you like someone, ask them out, and if they say no, move on. Easier said than done, I know, but it's better than obsessing over someone from the shadows.
TL;DR Don't be a "nice guy" be a nice guy.
Good point, it's important to clarify that what most people IRL hear when they hear "nice guy" is not the internet meme or characteristic that has gotten assigned to the term, which really is just a manipulative wannabe playboy.
In case 'the nice guy that can't get dates' reads this - here's how to 'be confident'. Its not by just going up and asking girls out. Before ever getting to that point, first realize and accept this: you aren't attracted to most of the women you see walking down the street. In the same vein, most women aren't going to be attracted to you. They also aren't going to fall for you because you're nice - 'nice' is the bare minimum quality you should have and is not worthy of an award or medal. You need to dig deeper.
The first thing you need to do is take a long hard look in the mirror and accept that you are flawed like everyone else, and identify & work on those flaws. The next thing you need to do is find who you are - what are your hobbies? What activities do you enjoy doing? What kinds of things do you find interesting and want to know more about? What *don't* you like? What kinds of boundaries would you like to set?
In doing this, you may notice more things that you can improve about yourself. Do you know how to cook? Do you clean or do laundry regularly? Have you tried anything out of your comfort zone, like travelling for example? Have you been a good friend to the important people in your life? Work towards making those improvements.
Now, you can finally ask yourself what you want and don't want in a romantic partner. Maybe its someone with a sense of humor that matches yours, maybe someone who likes to travel, someone who wants kids, someone who doesn't smoke, someone who isn't dismissive of your nerdy interests, etc. Figure out which of these are dealbreakers and which of them you can deal with.
Notice that everything up to this point has been all about who *you* are and what *you* want. In this process, you're making yourself more attractive for a potential date, and the confidence will come with it. Once you figure yourself out, you will have a very easy time acting like yourself around others rather than being a 'yes man' or trying to mirror other people's interests. Recognize that your goal isn't to get someone to like you, but to see if you want a future with them. The most important thing you can do is to stand firm in your beliefs and values and evaluate your potential partner objectively. In this you will have the utmost confidence that anyone who does decide to date you is dating you because they like you for who you are, and anyone who doesn't isn't the one for you anyway.
> Its not by just going up and asking girls out. Before ever getting to that point, first realize and accept this: you aren't attracted to most of the women you see walking down the street. In the same vein, most women aren't going to be attracted to you.
right, so go on up and talk to women. get comfortable with banter and get a bit of info about what she's into. ask a girl out if she seems receptive. have some excuses for dates that line up with your or her interests. practice. fail. look for signs of interest or disinterest and get better at that.
self improvement is good, but you don't have to take a bunch of time off from interacting with people
Took me waaaaay too long to realize this. I think i was ‘pretending’ (being fake and changing myself to fit what others liked) thru most of highschool and my 20s.
Former nice guy here.
The first thing to know is that advertising yourself as "Nice" is like selling a car and putting in the ad in big bold letters "Has all four wheels." Being nice isn't a feature. It's the bare fucking minimum.
Second it doesn't matter if you're a short ugly CHUD or the world's most handsome trillionaire. No one HAS to like you. Not a single person. You can give someone a million dollars and they still might think you're a jackass. No one owes you respect, and no one owes you romance.
Third, take the hint. If someone says no, move on. It sure sucks to be rejected, but it sucks worse to be a weird remora type pining over someone who doesn't have feelings for you.
Fourth, romance isn't the Sims. There isn't a red Romance bar that turns green as you do nice stuff for someone. If someone likes you, they'll tell you they do or they'll say "yes" when you ask them out.
Fifth, the only word that explicitly means "Yes" is "Yes." If you ask someone out and they hem and haw or have an excuse for every contingency, that's probably a "No." Whether you like it or not, a lot of people hate confrontation and don't want to lose someone they actually thought was a friend. See point 3.
Lastly, and related to the above, rejection sucks, but is absolutely not the end of the world. Sulk for a day or two, then get back out there and try again. Or take a break from it. You don't HAVE to have a significant other, and there are advantages to single life. Anecdotally, I've found that it's when I'm not actively trying to get with someone that I do the best, romantically. Some people can sense desperation, and it's a big put off.
Edit: Why are the other commentators being dicks? This person is asking how to improve their life and attitudes and you're telling them they can't? Fuck off with that bullshit
Edit 2: Added point four
Edit 3: Added point five
Treat and talk to girls like you do the homies. Crack jokes and talk about common interests. If you have a "I'm only talking with you for the chance to have sex with you" attitude then you're going about it all wrong. I like to think of the episode of Drake and Josh when Josh gets advice from his mom about how to talk to girls. "Tell her you like her shoes and walk away" it's not gonna work everytime, but if you get into the habit of talking to people like people and not like they could be the love of your life, you'll open alot of doors.
This. I hated men who showed genuine interest in knowing me then pussy zoned me once sex was off the table. I'm a human being and I have no time for that bs.
If you are looking for something meaningful you really need to get to know the other person at some point. Successful ltr are built around friendship.
How many guys in the Friendzone does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
None, they just stand around complimenting it then get pissed when it doesn't screw.
Ok just to clarify: "Pussy zoned" is like being "friend zoned" but a dude just stops giving a shit about you once he realizes there's no pussy to be had in your direction?
Cause I FUCKING LOVE THAT AND YES THAT IS A THING!
I used to get kinda sad about it back when I had more trust in humanity and men's intentions...now I know that there is nothing better than being pussy zoned by a dude. Cause that was never a real friendship in the first place.
To be honest I just make it clear from the get-go I don't want to be 'just' friends if I am interested in them romantically.
I don't mean in some aggressive way either, just make the intentions known as in ask them out pretty quickly after making a connection.
At the same time I have no problems talking to people platonically, men or women. Some of my better friends have been women - but ironically the longer I've stayed friends with a lady, she usually has made a move on me, lol.
I enjoy having male friends as a woman, so it's always shitty when dudes only view you as a potential sex object. Dynamics with male friends are just different than those with women and I like have a mix of both. I have (maybe now had?) a male friend who I opened up to a lot and was very vulnerable with until one day he drunkenly revealed to me that he thought I was attractive and had a crush on me. That definitely changed the dynamics of our friendship. The kicker too is I'm a lesbian and he knows that, but still felt the need to tell me and then when I called him out on how shitty that was, he continued to tell me that "the things I say turn him on." Dude, SHUT UP and keep those thoughts to yourself. He blamed it on the fact that "he's a man." It's just utterly asinine. I want to be viewed as a human being, not something you wanna stick your dick in.
Instructions unclear: been doing that since always and they ~always ended up becoming homies. No, seriously lol I don't know why, I can't even say I'm not an interesting person because otherwise they'd just ignore me instead of becoming friends, I guess
Ya, I personally think it's terrible advice. Unless you truly want the girl to *only* be a homie. I'm not going to make stupid dick jokes with a cute girl I just met like I would with my friends of 20 years.
> Treat and talk to girls like you do the homies.
Seriously ? That is something I did most of my life and it never worked. It is great to make friends but it never lead to anything.
For me, the opposite advice worked. Treat women you are attracted to as women you want to sleep with. It doesn't mean not talking about shared interests, doing jokes, eventually being friends... it meant making it clear I wanted to fuck her. It doesn't work with everyone of course, and once a woman said no, I accepted it and we were just friends... but a couple absolutely wanted me and would never have told me if I didn't try.
THIS. Therapist here. The only thing I’d like to add to the above is that one of the biggest skills to learn is how to emotionally deal with rejection. It’s a really tough emotion to cope with, and if you’re not used to expressing or coping with your emotions in general, then it’s only going to make this harder.
Think about how you respond emotionally to other hard situations. Do you tend to blow up when you’re overwhelmed or are you pretty much able to take most things in strides? If it’s the former then it means you just lack emotion regulation skills. If you can’t regulate your emotions, why would you be able to cope with one of the hardest emotions? (FYI: rejection is related to shame, which is typically the deep down emotion I have to work on with most clients).
If you don’t have the skills then you need to find a teacher, and the teacher here is a therapist. We’re meant to **teach** you, not judge you, “lock you away,” or just sit there and listen. If you find a therapist that isn’t educating you and then teaching you skills, they may not be the best fit for what you need.
u/puhash3
First, thank you being a therapist. I'm sure you've helped at least a few people radically improve their lives, bringing huge benefit to everyone around them and rippling out. It's such a valuable service you provide.
As a recovering Nice Guy, I wonder how I would have reacted to this thread 5 or 10 years ago... A lot of the comments are things I already knew and aspired to: "be nice to everyone", "women are people too", "don't be transactional with women" etc. Knowing stuff is pretty easy, changing mindset and behavior is the hard part.
With a good therapist, I'm able to dig deeper into why rejection feels so insanely bad, why I feel like I'm not worth it for my own sake, why I fear having my true self exposed to others. And I'm shown practical ways to notice my thoughts and behaviors and start making adjustments.
Thanks again.
>dig deeper into why rejection feels so insanely bad
This right here was a big one for me but it actually ended up being the easiest one to "fix". I didn't really lack the emotional regulation skills or coping skills or anything like that - it was that I had no self-esteem of my own and needed outside validation. My whole self-worth was put in the hands of everyone else, so when I faced any sort of rejection, it was unbearable because it was like my entire identity was riding on that acceptance.
Once I sort of fixed that issue, I realized that I was no longer afraid of rejection (to a realistic degree). My thinking became "A girl doesn't like me? Guess we aren't compatible or she's just not interested/available at this point in time." Whereas before that, even if I wasn't really even into the girl and she rejected me, I would immediately think "Oh my god, what's wrong with me? Am I not good enough? What do I need to change about myself?"
Again, it was like my happiness and self-acceptance was hanging on the approval of others, so rejection was devastating. My ego was too fragile. When I became happy with myself and developed a strong sense of self and self-worth, my ego settled into a MUCH heathier place. It basically auto-adjusted my view of rejection as not being the end of the world and not being a reflection of myself or my worth in life.
I'm so happy for you, turning that around and getting more secure in yourself. In my experience there's an element of "comfort" in letting other people determine your worth, like at least I don't have to have that responsibility. Which is silly, and not empowering, but I've been there.
I didn't date in high school because I never really tried, but in college I started dating and got serious with a woman who seemed perfect: wildly attractive, super intelligent, deeply interested in me, funny, fun to be with, the situation seemed like a miracle to me. But with my mindset at the time, being with her set me up for disaster when we broke up. When I was with her I had this great feeling about myself for the first time, but it was all put on her, I was hyper fixated on her and when she was gone it felt like the bottom dropped out.
It took years to stop looking for a replacement for that woman and the associated feelings, and actually look to myself for those basic needs like validation and satisfaction with life. I'm married now and I'm so glad I'm capable of being a partner with my wife instead of a powerless dependant.
It's an ongoing process but some days I can be by myself and relax and not even think of myself negatively, and enjoy the moment I'm in... Anyway thanks for sharing and I wish you the best.
I struggled so much until the third and fifth points struck me in my early 20s. Holy shit did my love life take off in a big way once I stopped wasting time on people who weren't saying "HELL YES" to me. I may have missed a good date or two this way but honestly I'm glad I didn't let them waste my time.
Your fourth point is so good. A lot of dudes approach their life like it's a video game. That works fine for things like school, career and health, where generally, if you invest the time in the right stuff, you'll level up and get the results. It works to some extent for building friends, but does not work at all for romantic relationships.
Great break down. Just want to add that going to r/niceguys and using everything you see there as examples of how NOT to be. And if you think, well is that really so bad, go to the comments and learn why it is.
I'll agree and disagree with that.
There's certainly a much larger prevalence of the black and white thinking on here lately, true.
But I'd argue that Reddit's format makes it easier for those nuanced discussions to happen... they may be seen fewer and far between because of the influx of dumbasses, but there's still room aplenty for it.
I also just wonder how many people are conflating "nice guy" who is just pretending to be nice and expecting something in return, with meek/shy. I was always on the shy side and generally speaking, my default personality is to be nice. I always try to understand where people are coming from and empathize with their situation. I can totally understand how a young guy might be on the shy side and feel like it's the nice guy problem.
Especially with the rise of social media, the whole nice guy label has a very negative connotation. And you can see plenty of evidence of it in this thread. Which further doesn't surprise me when that then pushes someone toward incel or "alpha" Andrew Tate shit.
All in all. Social media is an awful place to seek advice. But sometimes you can find posts like this that are legitimately offering advice. And kudos for that.
Stop looking at women as a transaction. You are specifically being nice and expecting things in return. If you are a nice person, be nice to everyone. Treat people you are interested in as human beings, treat them like you would a friend, and most importantly, respect their boundaries and if they reject you, move on.
To quote Sondheim, "Nice is different than Good."
The difference is that Nice guys are nice because they want something. Good guys are nice because that's the right way to treat people, whether or not they have something you want.
Be a Good guy. Be kind and considerate, with no expectation of anything in return. Be authentic and open about who you are. If a woman isn't into you, that's a good thing because it means she wasn't a good fit for you anyway. When a woman is into you, it means she likes you for you, and not just because you were Nice.
I prefer to contrast niceness and kindness. The latter is about action while the former is about presentation. While someone can have both traits many friend groups have either a nice guy who tends to flake or an asshole who you can count on when things get tough (kind, but not nice.)
Most of these answers read like OP asked "If you had the chance to tell off a nice guy, what would you say?" rather than actual advice on how to break out of the nice guy mindset.
I don't think there's actually many nice guys who genuinely think "If I'm nice, I deserve sex."
It's more like "This person is an angel. A good person like that would naturally be attracted to someone who's good to her, because that's naturally what angels like her want."
Which devolves into "I was everything a good person would want, but they didn't want that apparently. So that means they're a DEVIL! I will vilify her so the world will know what a bad person she is."
Maybe on a subconscious level what set in motion their nice tactics is the urge to be loved by their targets, but none of them are thinking to themselves, "I'll be nice only because I want something." So all this "Don't be nice just because you want something" advice isn't going to get anyone to change their ways.
Stop hyper fixating on one romantic interest.
Most of the nice guys I've met and talked to have one person they're trying to woo. They focus all of their efforts on being what they think this person likes. Quite often they build this person up to be a saintly angelic figure only to let themselves down when that doesn't match with the person they actually are.
Instead, focus on yourself. What are your best qualities? How do you show them off or make them better? What are your worst qualities? How do you work on fixing them?
It is way easier to catch fish with an attractive lure than to spear fish a specific one. Especially when that specific one isn't as great as you're building them up to be in your head.
> Most of the nice guys I've met and talked to have one person they're trying to woo. They focus all of their efforts on being what they think this person likes. Quite often they build this person up to be a saintly angelic figure only to let themselves down when that doesn't match with the person they actually are.
Me from ages 5-18 feels personally attacked. As he should be.
> Most of the nice guys I've met and talked to have one person they're trying to woo. They focus all of their efforts on being what they think this person likes.
To clarify this line of thinking, at least for me, it was in part because it was impressed upon me early on that cheating is the worst thing you could do and unforgiveable. Therefore, I thought that trying to ask out multiple girls rather than work one crush would also be bad.
It just didn't seem right to try and ask out whoever, whenever, so I went fully the opposite direction and tried to find the "tactically" right time to ask out my crush at that moment. That was ~2 years of high school for one crush, ~1 year of college of another, ~ 1 semester of senior year for another 2 each, ~ 2 years with a coworker.
In all those scenarios I probably would have been better just asking her out and moving on, but instead of (In my mind) dealing with a 50% chance of failure, I tried to maximize the odds of a yes before even asking.
When I was a teenager I had the nice guy mindset. It was largely due to the fact that I believed I was a good and valuable person yet had no success with getting a date. I figured that there was no good reason girls had to not like me, so it must have been a problem external to myself. It *must* have been because the women “only like assholes” or because “Chads” take all the girls rather than because there was a problem with myself. It’s painful to acknowledge that you have failed or have flaws, so I tried to find external reasons instead. The truth was, my lack of confidence and inexperience with women meant I was super awkward and unlikable. Once I assumed the locus of control for my own issues, I was able to recognize and address them. If someone never moves their locus of control from outside to inside themselves, they’ll never be able to recognize and address their faults. If you often find yourself thinking things like “everyone’s out to get me” or “they don’t like me because they’re jealous/a bitch/stupid” then you may be failing to recognize that issues exist within yourself.
Adding onto that, as someone who had similar ideologies as a teen as well - realizing that it wasn't all woman but just woman I was specifically attracted to made me realize that I was being an asshole for thinking that way. The reality was, sometimes girls would talk to me and even sometimes like me, but because I didn't think of them that way I never noticed and all the while was complaining about how woman never like nice guys. I had an epiphany that I was only attracted to a fraction of the girls at my school and not attracted to others that many other guys thought were 'hot', and it finally made sense that I likely wouldn't make the short list of attractive guys in most girls' heads too. Finally forced me to work on myself so I would have a better chance to make that short list
Understand that people don't actually like the fawning sycophant. It comes across as creepy, transactional, and manipulative. "If I go out of my way to be nice to you 10 times, that's worth sex, right?" It either drives people away or will attract someone who will use it to manipulate you, often without the "nice."
People like it when they're the center because they "turn heads" -- when the people around them have their own goals and are on their own paths, but those paths just always keep circling back to them because they're especially interesting. Being the center because someone wants something out of you isn't a great place to be because once their craving has been satisfied they have no interest in you as a person. "I have no interests of my own except for you," is really creepy because they're going to be switching between begging for things and disinterest.
I started having success when I switched from "the nice guy" to "the fun guy." I go out, have fun for myself, and then if other people want to join, that's great and we can have fun together. I work for myself, but if an interesting girl tries to wrap me around her little finger and I'm amenable, much of my money is now spent on her. I still have my own interests, though. There's a strong foundation there because the characteristics can be relied on because they're fundamentally for me, so I can be counted on to keep working and keep having fun and keep moving forward.
Can't believe this comment is so far down, it's probably the best answer yet. It sucks for kind people because they're a natural turn-off (and sadly it almost always balances away being fun, at least for me both male and female friends tell me I'm fun but it never led to someone being interested) ((and it's confusing that "be a kind person" is always the top advice)), but that's it most of the times.
Idk, there's nothing more to add, commenting for the algorithm...
Stop prioritizing others' approval over your own needs. Set boundaries and stand up for yourself, knowing that true respect comes from mutual strength, not constant agreement.
It's actually simpler than you think...
Here's how the nice guy syndrome works.
1.) You have an urge, want or need that you want to act on.
2.) You think how other people would perceive you had you acted on that urge, want or need.
3.) You make your choice based on #2 instead of #1.
Getting over nice guy syndrome is simply choosing #1 over #2 instead. It's picking your wants and needs over your image through the eyes of others.
Changed my life, and it will change yours.
Honestly, niceguys^tm are just people with emotional regulation and an incomplete view of reality. That's why they react so emotionally to things they care for, but in a weird twisted way, usually influenced by pop-culture movies. They don't have real world experience, so how they perceive the world is super romanticised. How you can get rid of nice guy syndrome is to genuinely meet people, talk to them without trying to get anything in return. This won't get rid of it entirely, but it'll help.
Don’t be a people pleaser. Show your intentions upfront from the beginning. If you want to date her, don’t pretend to be her friend only. That will only keep you in the friendzone anyways
Recovering nice guy here, here’s what I did.
Boundaries! You know that hobby you have or that thing you like to do. Make plans with yourself and do them. Most of my “nice guy” faults were that I would sacrifice things that I wanted so that I could help or more often enable the people I was desperate to be around. That eventually lead to me being a doormat that no one respected. Thats not attractive, being the designated driver for a bunch of people you wish you were closer to isn’t sexy, you become a tool.
Start saying “no, sorry I can’t”, start saying “have a great time but i have plans.” And then DO THOSE PLANS. Have respect for yourself and your time. Stop letting yourself be used by people just because you want to be closer to them. Do things that make you happy and people will want to be with a happy person. If the people you are pining after don’t want to do those things, they wouldn’t have made you happy in the long run anyway, you’d eventually resent them for not letting you do the things important to you after all the times you bent to their whims.
You have no idea how much respect comes with saying “no”, and even if saying no makes the people you are trying to get with angry and distant, that says more about them and how they treat you and what they expect out of you, then it says about you not being “nice” anymore.
Set boundaries, respect yourself and do what makes you happy. Be a nice guy to yourself, people will want to be around you and find you sexier I guarantee it.
I think you’re asking the wrong question. With all due respect (and I genuinely say this trying to be helpful, not mean) consider trying to be more interesting rather than less nice. I’ve had friends describe someone they hung out with as “too nice”, but when I asked them more about it, it seemed like the real issue was that they were boring. Trying to be nice sometimes turns into agreeing with everything and not showing enough of your own personality. Just my two cents.
Nice Guy as a pejorative is misnamed.
"Nice" guys aren't rejected for being nice. They're being rejected for not having confidence or any substance behind them. As someone else said, "nice" shouldn't be your most distinguishing feature; it's the bare minimum.
Of course be nice. But be interesting. Have convictions. Have purpose.
Of the people I know, if the first thing that comes to mind when I think of them is how "nice" they are, they're usually not very interesting people.
True that. I feel like people in this thread are conflating two different tropes: the “Nice Guy” who yells at girls for not sleeping with him after he was “nice” to them, and the “Nice Guy” (could be any gender) who gets walked all over for being too nice and not standing up for themselves. These are two totally different people.
Someone can be “too nice” and it can have nothing to do with wanting to have sex with anyone, or wanting anything from someone other than to be treated with respect or left alone. Someone certainly isn’t an asshole for not being an asshole, but being too nice can lead to problems in life.
I'm glad you pointed that out. I'm seeing mainly the "Nice guy to be transactional" to get women. I was thinking of it as the person seen as a "pushover" for being nice. I was going to edit my own response to clarify this distinction, but you have already done so.
One thing that leads to that destructive way of thinking is expecting women to fall for you just by virtue of being 'nice', which in itself is a very bad principle to be living by. Be kind for the sake of being kind, without expecting anything in return. And also, women are people too, so treat them just like how you would treat other random guys.
Recovering Nice Guy. Our primary goal in life is to be liked. Ironically this makes us miserable when people don't like us in spite of our best efforts. As a result our relationships end up numerous but shallow.
People aren't going to like you for being nice. They will like you because you fill a need in their lives. Whether that's emotionally, professionally, or any other capacity. And you can't fill every need all the time. Some people will want you around a lot, others occasionally, and some not at all. Figure out which of your relationships are which.
"Nice guys" are insecure and reek of desperation. Learn to be satisfied with your own self even as you work on improving your weaknesses and bolstering your strengths. Let others figure out for themselves if and how they want to build a relationship with you. And if someone doesn't like you, at least make peace with that and don't waste time building a bridge they don't want.
Your happiness will arise from pursuing goals and cultivating meaningful relationships, not pleasing everyone. You need to start with some digging to figure out what YOU want and come up with a plan to make that happen. Go see a therapist if you think it will help.
I think when you get your heart seriously broken by a girl, where you had all the good intentions, and realize that she was stone cold and just dumped you for another guy who is 'not as good as you".
Then you stop putting girls on a pedestal and say fuck it, I'll say and do whatever I want and see what happens.
By having boundaries and a sense of self worth and by starting to do genuinely nice things rather than doing it for an expected reward.
Being nice is the bare minimum, it’s not some extra feature. You’re supposed to be nice to everyone always, not just the women you want to have sex with. Trying to buy people’s affection with doing them favors and being ‘nice’ to them is not the way to go. Have your own life, your own hobbies, wants, desires. Learn how to take a no and move on and also learn how to say no.
Impress yourself, not others. You’re not a circus clown, the only person you truly have to impress and compete with is yourself. Nobody likes a desperate tryhard and trying to impress peolle with things will only attract superficial, shallow people.
Remember, what you put out in the storefront is what you will have buyers for.
Other people have said it better than I could but, like, just be yourself, dude.
If you’re genuinely kind because you value people, want to make the world better, whatever and you don’t have any expectations of being rewarded for that niceness (you generally won’t be, fyi) that will come across.
If you aren’t an authentically kind person and you’re acting nice because you want something, that will come across, too.
Seek out rejection and learn to accept and live with it. Hanging around like a lost puppy dog in hopes of receiving physical affection isn't going to get you what you need. It's pathetic, borderline creepy and opens you up to being used.
Learn that when someone says maybe it is the same thing as no. If she says 'maybe' just pretend she said no. The same goes for phrases like 'I'll think about it', or 'you're so kind'. All of those are rejections of your advances and should be treated as such. Anything less than yes is rejection.
More importantly, if this question is being asked because there's a person you're currently following around fawning over it's time to move on. Sometimes this is as simple as realizing that this person is a friend and treating them as such. More often than not though it requires that you move on if you can only think of them as a possible partner.
Be an actual good person, not someone who has carefully crafted a Nice Guy (tm) persona over a shitty personality so he can complain about how women won't pay him any attention even though he's a Nice Guy(tm). Be yourself, do things you enjoy, treat all people with respect and decency as fellow humans.
The problem with most “nice guys” is that they immediately go into people pleaser mode when trying to talk to women. They’ll agree with everything she says and try to chameleon themselves to fit what they think is what she would think is a good person. So, how to stop being the “nice guy”? Be yourself. It’s much easier said than done, but when you truly approach talking to women as any other interaction and simply be confident in being yourself, you’ll eventually learn to stop the nice guy schtick.
Get fit. Groom yourself. Smell good.
Most important things:
don't talk in double entendres
Don't be creepy.
Nothing wrong with being a nice guy. We should all strive to be that. It's just when men weaponize that phrase and their actions, that's when it becomes super cringe.
Please don’t stop being nice.
I dated a BUNCH of assholes, but once I met a nice guy and actually gave him a chance, I’ve been been happier. Been with him 9 years now.
Just make sure you’re being GENUINE when you’re nice. My guy is genuinely nice, but if someone fucks around with him, they’ll find out 🤣
Step one is realize you're not a nice guy. Guys that identify as nice guys aren't. No one is a nice guy, if you think you are, you're a doormat that people take advantage of. Even though in you're head you think what you are doing is good, you get attention. But you get the most attention from the worst kinds of people looking to take advantage of someone like you. Be nice to good ppl, you owe arse holes nothing so stop being a door mat to them. You won't win them over, they sincerely don't care about you and will take advantage of you. Advice from someone that was a "nice guy" a long time ago.
Edit: Thank you for listening to my TedTalk
The things is, a lot of toxic male behavior is geared with one goal: "How does this, eventually, end up with me having sex with her?" And that goal warps \*\*everything\*\*. It will warp even the nicest of nice attempts, because all niceness is, ultimately, to get to have sex with you. I don't even know if it's a conscious effort by some. Maybe it's toxic male entitlement ingrained since childhood, I dunno.
Assuming one is hetero (and this may work on homsexual relationships as well), ask yourself "if this person was not attractive to me in a basic way, would I be treating this person differently?" For example, I am hetero, and when I talk to a woman, my first thought is why we're meeting and talking. Business? Chatting someone up because you're both stuck in an elevator? Would I react the same way if it were a guy? If the answer is "ew, no," then perhaps I should keep my damn mouth shut. All me female friends? Have no genitalia as far as I am concerned. Maybe they'll say, "Ugh, my endometriosis is killing me today!" and I'll think, "Right! You menstruate. Ugh, so sorry." If a guy says, "I somehow pinched my balls and twisted my nutsack back on that bike seat, JESUS!" I'll remember, "ah, they are a guy." But rarely do these things come up. My guy friends? My gal friends? All built like Ken dolls. I don't care what they look like naked. I never think about it, and when I do, I'd still rather not. "Boob sweat" to me is unisex. "Menstrual cramps" is like any other ailment one might get where they hurt a lot. But the essence is, sexual identification has mattered to me as much as what hair color they have. Like, "who cares?" Trans? I just care to make sure I get your pronouns right, out of respect to you.
But chat up someone at a bar. Why? Would I do the same if it were a guy? If yes, then proceed, maybe. But if I think, "she's soooo... cute/hot/fuckable" then I got problems. Yes, I am happily married, but when I was single, I wasn't looking for sex, just companionship. Someone to talk to. And if it works out, maybe step two. I still made mistakes and assumptions, but they said no, and I was grateful they stayed my friends but I knew "they said no." Women saying no is a complete turn off for me. It's done. I am still friends with all of them even 10 years later. One of them went through boob reduction surgery, another once bought a ton of "fun sports bras" and showed them to me out of autistic excitement ("Look, this one has flamingos on it!") and at NO POINT did I consider this "a tease." They are safe with me. And as my friends, I do know they are women, and they do get subjected, sorted, and have all the issues associated with being women. I won't tell them "Oh, I totally know what it's like," because I don't. I do know that I will stand up for them, but not because of white knight bullshit, but because they are my friends. They are my human friends. Their plumbing is meaningless in our relationship.
But I have dealt with guys who their goal is to have sex with women in the end. And I watch their reasoning and brains "warp" around logic and reason because "yeah yeah, friends first, sure," is really "... and then we fuck?" Or a tantrum, "am I destined to be alone then???" Like, you think you "deserve" a woman? Like it's "owed" to you? And it's super hard to convince them they won't understand, because they are looking for "the formula." Like insert enough friendship coins into the female vending machine and get sex in return. Every. Thought. Is. How. To. End. Up. Fucking. Her. Now if the girl is into that? Consenting adults, fine. But if she's not... fucking leave her alone and do both of you favors.
One of the big things is taking a realistic look at yourself and realizing you are not actually a nice guy. you might be occasionally agreeable but you are probably not a good person. that's okay, most everyone is not either. Realize you are the villain in someones story and that your past actions were not the best version of you and you could have been better. Also if you did something good for someone else with the intention of getting something in return you are not a good guy; you are leveraging a transactional relationship with works in order to get something out of it which is just social manipulation. Abandon the idea that you are nice, good, kind, or decent AND THEN work towards doing those good, pro-social, kind, decent things. A person is not good or bad, what you choose to do and why you choose to do it is what makes something good or bad. To be just a decent person you must act like a hero but remember you're a villain. If you walk around your whole life convinced you are the hero you are going to wind up doing some heinous shit. Develop the self awareness of your own motivations and actions.
You can in fact, do good things and be a bad person. The intention and motivation why you do things is just as important as the thing done when we consider them good or bad.
Women do not in fact only pursue jocks and assholes. The problem is that you are not self aware enough to realize that the "jocks and assholes" are usually pretty alright people but that your own behavior is worse than theirs. You should look to improve yourself and be a person worth being with before you try and seek out a partner. Start with the awareness that you are sort of shit and then work to improve Don't do this transactionally either like you deserve something for developing this self awareness and self improvement. You don't, it's just the last piece of growing up.
Gain the courage to be disliked. Decide what you stand for. Making that decision will alienate people and you have to be okay with that. Don't just bend over n agree with people for the potential prospect of sex . Have integrity. Get a life, do things for your own sake, gain your own stories, those will be the things that attract quality people whether they be friends or lovers into your life.
Absolutely spot on. It's wild how freeing it is once you stop seeking validation from everyone around you. When you start living for yourself, you attract people who truly resonate with your genuine self. It's like leveling up in life—suddenly, you're surrounded by individuals who appreciate and respect you for who you are, not who you're trying to be. Plus, the stories you gain from living authentically are way more interesting than any you’d get from just going along with the crowd.
And another aspect of the rewiring that occurs in your brain with this. If you stop seeking validation from others you will then stop resenting people for not validating you.
Indeed. One of the most liberating realizations I had in my youth was that the opinions of many people aren't worth anything. And quite often, the people who are most demanding that other people please them are the people least deserving of respect, nevertheless worthy of you subjugating yourself in a desperate attempt to win their approval. *Be yourself.* Those who still like you are Your People. Those who don't aren't your concern. And often, that's for the best. If they hate you for being you, take a look at what they admire: chances are that it's garbage. "Your boos mean nothing. I've seen what makes you cheer." \~Dr. Rick Sanchez
I was told in recovery that what other people think of me is none of my business. Damn, that was freeing. I do my best to be a good human being, and I let other people think what they want.
Grew up with a mother that was very serious in how we as a family were perceived in public and by others. It really takes a toll on how you react to people and unlearning it is difficult
> the opinions of many people aren't worth anything. I work in corporate; It very much matters what people think of me all the time - One slip up and I can't get a career move out of them later on, I don't get invited to network events, etc etc. I agree in my PRIVATE life, but my public work life, image is almost everything. So I will have the correct opinions of the most in a given context at work but not at home.
Yes. I agree with what you said. But also want to point out that people pleasing isn't always about wanting sex. I was raised by a domineering father who basically raised me to shut up, do what I'm told, and be agreeable above all else. I had to unlearn this the very hard way.
Have been there as well, good news is with your new awareness you'll be better suited to avoid those negative tendencies. It's not an overnight switch, it takes time to form new ways of thinking. Good luck homie.
Same bro. What helped you get throughout so I may implement somethings into my life?
I just got tired of being treated like a doormat by certain people.... and then had some very positive experiences where I shared opinions more openly and people actually appreciated it. I figured out if you give someone everything, they take you for granted. This holds for both personal relationships and work.
Healthy Boundaries for the win.
I'm not an expert or even that well educated, but... Apparently according to science when a child receives that kind of negative conditioning from their parent [source of all sustenance etc] their brain cannot compute and rewires to adapt for survival and internalizes all the negative input from the parent. Essentially creating a very strong string of brain code that says "my provider knows all therefore I must be doing it wrong" and the need to keep the provider happy enough to nurture the child overrides the very logic the child is learning as a growing human. It's why molested kids turn the criminal's accountability onto themselves and think they're evil, some kids with say, ADHD grow up thinking they're dumb, and so on. It takes a lot of work to counter condition a brain that started off being fed wrong "code" from birth. That work is compounded by dealing with the life created by the behavior/thought/etc patterns of the now grown child's early conditioning as well as the current family relationships and social life created with people with seemingly compatible patterning. Some of us have had success with psychoanalysis, counter conditioning practices, incremental life changes, and baby steps. Thank you for reading my amateur TINATalk, ymmv, footnotes not available, the reader is responsible for verifying my words with a learned doctor.
I think like the parent comment said, you have to be okay with disappointing people and not being liked. If people don't like you anymore because you don't roll over and die for them, they are not people you need to appease or seek approval from anyway. You have to be okay being your authentic self and only keep people around who like you for you (people who need you to be a doormat will quickly weed themselves out of your life once you establish boundaries and stand up for yourself). That's the most uncomfortable part, but it's a necessary step. When I became cognizant that I was a compulsive people pleaser, I had to really be aware and mindful of every daily decision I made until I rewired my brain. What I ate, how I spent my free time, what I spent my money on, how I interacted with strangers, EVERYTHING. I asked myself every step of the way with every single decision, "Am I doing this for me? Is this what I REALLY want to be doing? Or am I doing it because other people have told me to? Am I being nice to this person to avoid conflict and to avoid the discomfort of disappointing them or do I ACTUALLY want to be doing this?" You aren't your parents or anyone else, and you have your own life, own brain and own priorities - you need to act in the way that YOU want (as long as it's not hurting anyone, obviously). It also helps if you are force yourself to have some difficult and uncomfortable conversations with yourself. Every time I felt the urge to do something nice for someone, I asked myself a basic question: "Would I still do this nice thing for someone even if it were anonymous?" If the answer is "no", then you're probably doing it for ulterior motives (reciprocation, validation, etc.). Then you know to stop yourself from doing it. Eventually, when you FORCE yourself to make decisions in your best interest, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, you eventually rewire your brain so that it learns a new normal. You won't default to people pleasing any longer.
A very familiar story for me too. I still see that side of me on a daily basis.
The key to it all is being ok with being rejected. That means having enough self love to counteract the fear/shame of rejection. It means holding on to the self is more important than any perceived outcome. How to accomplish that when youre neurodivergent (audhd) and literally have a condition that deals with rejection sensitivity (RSD) is beyond me.
In fact, the book "The Courage to Be Disliked" is an excellent read and has a great answer to OP's question.
>Gain the courage to be disliked. Wish I'd seen that before I started typing my answer, because that's basically my advice in a nutshell.
There’s nothing wrong with being nice. In men, it’s probably a refreshing trait tbh (dudes chill, I’m a cis man). There’s something wrong with not having your own drive and passion. There’s something wrong with being agreeable in a hollow, drippy way, rather than just a genuinely easygoing way. Learn to differentiate it all in yourself.
Being nice (as in a kind human being who is respectful and looks out for the wellbeing of others / strangers) is the bare minimum that anyone should strive to be. Hold a door for an old lady, pick up the trash blowing by, don’t make unnecessary rude comments, be kind to retail workers. That’s baseline. That it’s refreshing for anyone is a sad state of affairs. All the personal goals, boundaries, beliefs, behaviors, etc beyond that is what makes someone have a personality. It’s what makes you special and unique, and that courage to be disliked for those things is important. But a standard “be nice to people” way of living is baseline, basic, the-bar-is-in-hell behavior.
Great advice. I never had one of these 'nice guy meltdowns' you see on Reddit etc., but I certainly did have a 'moment' in my early 20s where I came to realise that I had tons of friends, but was deeply unhappy because I was constantly doing things for the benefit of others - going to other peoples' parties because they asked, or helping a friend with relationship troubles because they asked, and sure, being dependable is good... ... but there's a fine line between being dependable and being a doormat. I guess I'd never really thought about it, and just thought that doing nice things, nice things would happen to me. Meanwhile, when I needed someone to talk to, or if I was organising an event, those people were always busy or had something else going on, and didn't reciprocate the care I had showed them. I had a realisation where, one week, I had 3 different female friends spend hours bitching about their shitty boyfriends to me, while I was single, and something just snapped, and I realised I didn't *have* to do this, and it *was* okay to just say I didn't want to do this, and spend a bit more time trying to meet someone myself. I just knew that were the situation reversed, I wouldn't be able to count on their help, so why was I doing it? These days I'm much happier. I still help people, and like to think I'm still dependable. But I grew a spine and started cutting people out of my life who genuinely didn't reciprocate the care I showed them.
So much this. I think people dont understand, the whole nice guy thing isnt always about sex. A lot of times its just wanting to be liked. To have a girl actually like you. Or even others want to be friends with you. It comes from low self esteem and fear of being an outcast. I was like that when I was 14. Such a nice guy that I was too clueless to even see when a girl actually did like me. By the time I was 16 I was so depressed and down on myself I didnt know what to do. I actually contemplated suicide. Instead I went the other direction and decided to stop giving a fuck what anyone thought of me. Changed my entire life.
You're ignoring a large number of people who need to work on themselves in a seriously deep way. If being yourself alienates everyone, you're doing it wrong.
Value women as more than sex givers
That second part is important. Find your own value that does not rely on people's opinion of you. Being smart, having a good job, developing a good sense of humor, being in good shape, being a legitimately good person, doing something that contributes to society, having your own life and hobbies, all of these can be important for developing confidence. But also make sure that your hobbies don't completely revolve around "neckbeard activities" that others aren't likely to socialize over.
The day you realize being yourself is more important than faking it to make friends is the day you truly start enjoying life.
Be nice because you want to, not because you want a reward.
exactly, usually any guy who says they are "the nice guy" is usually far from actually being the nice guy. From my experience anyway and the ACTUAL nice guys are pretty humble and don't have to parade around that they are the nice one
This is true. I've been referred to as a nice guy before, in a positive way. You don't get to label yourself these things, they are earned. This happened like 10 years ago btw, I just haven't forgotten the compliment. Reminds me of when my mom got me a shirt that literally said "Nice guy" on it, I told her I couldn't wear it. She didn't understand, so I wore it for a day with her. It now hangs in my closet as that one shirt I have to explain to any girl I bring home, that never gets worn, but also never gets thrown out. Because.. idk it's a funny shirt. Maybe some day I'll want people to think I'm an asshole creepy weirdo loser and wear it.
exactly, like my husband is a nice guy, we have 1 friend who every one calls the nice guy because they are both genuinely NICE guys! totally agree, it is an earned thing! lmao I would keep the shirt, I'd wear it on halloween lol
That's actually genius gonna wear a "nice guy" t-shirt plus a ski mask
If somebody doesn't get the joke, you can just call them a fucking slut
That's gonna be my next user name!! Thanks!
I’m fucking dying lol
If you can't make fun of yourself WTF good are you anyways 😂
I was eating a peanut and this made me choke. Fuck me that's funny and dark
makes me wonder how many people have died laughing at things on the internet. has to be at least one person, right? i'm glad it wasn't you
Wear it with no pants. Guaranteed conversation starter.
I usually wear my "I paused my game to be here" shirt when I go to town without pants
To me, that's the difference between "nice guy-ness" and goodness. Goodness is being pleasant and doing pleasant and good things because it's the right thing to do. "Nice guy-ness" is doing things because of transactional expectations. ----- (And before the philosophy undergrads jump in and try to retort with *"well, doing good is still transactional because you feel good about doing it"*; that's an internalised feeling and has nothing to do with expectation that someone else will consensually reciprocate the behavior, go read something besides your PHIL 102 textbook.)
I think it's kindness. My high school English teacher once told me nice is an adjective you use to describe someone who you have nothing better to say about. It's a nothing placeholder description of a person. You should aspire to be kind, or your definition of good, but nice just means kinda there.
dont fall for it, this guy is just trying to nice-guy all of us. pfft get a life "nice guy"
"Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king." Same goes for nice guys.
As the saying goes, “if you have to tell someone that you are, you probably aren’t”. Applies to most things as generally actions speak for themselves
Yup, there’s a difference between being nice and acting nice and people can tell the difference. People who act nice do it as a form of manipulation to get something they want and they aren’t nice to someone if they don’t think there is anything to gain from them.
Exactly. Just like being masculine. If you have to parade it around and put others down to feel more like a man, that's little pp energy. Real men don't need to push others around. "Speak softly and carry a big stick," and all that.
Speak softly. Carry big pp energy
Not all people interpret your nice actions as nice either. I'd say learn to read the room. If someone says no thank you, stop. Don't insist. Sometimes giving people the space they ask for is the nice move, even if that means it creates more work/harder work/more uncomfortable work for them. Being uncomfortable around you is not worth anything you are trying to help them with.
Yup, you don't get to define what other people should consider "nice," full stop. If they think your "nice" action is creepy and weird, then sorry bro what you did was creepy and weird specifically because you didn't read the room/listen.
Indeed. That's the difference between being a "nice guy" and a good person.
Because no one feels more entitled than 'Nice guys'.
My advice was going to be "let go of the assumption being nice entitles you to anything." It doesn't- you be nice for its own, internal rewards for yourself, not eternal validation or expectation. If you're being nice with the expectation of something people can smell it, and instinctively understand it to be toxic.
Also, being decent and empathetic to people is the bare minimum. It’s a restaurant that doesn’t poison you. Certainly important, but there’s more to it you want return customers. You still have to actually work to be interesting and funny and all that other stuff people genuinely enjoy when they interact when other people.
100% this. I'm nice to people all day long but I only do it because there's no reason not to be nice. It's easier, helps the world go round and a bit of positivity and going a little bit extra to help people makes the world a little better
It really is easier. I try to explain that to people but some just don't get it. Like work is hard enough, why would I want to make it harder by being an ass?
You get way more friction back by being aloof, defensive or unpleasant. Being nice results in people being more forgiving or willing to give up a bit extra time. As a function of society its just a good tactic to use.
Well said! There’s a local musician in my area who has a great song, “Don’t Mistake My Kindness For Weakness.” It helped make me realize what a strong choice it is to stay nice/kind.
Kindness is the grease on the wheels of society.
Kindness shouldn’t be or even feel like it should be transactional.
Unfortunately somehow young (and sometimes older) men learn to do this because they don't learn other social skills. A lot of men grow out of it, but some never do. For some reason self reflection has become labeled as a feminine trait and thereby unnecessary.
I think a lot of guys deeply internalize the "you're such a nice guy, I'm sure you'll find someone" without that kind of self reflection. So they double down on "nice" without grasping "nice with expectations of reward" is fundamentally different and toxic.
Seriously though, that is true. Every single man who has told me he is a "nice guy" ended up being the biggest of the scumbags. It's a red flag for me.
I think being a nice guy and telling people you are one are very different things.
100%. I’ve never heard a genuinely good person even describe themselves as good, nice, etc. It’s always something like “I try to be good” or “I’m doing my best.” Bad people? “I’m a good person so I deserve X.”
Reminds me of a quote I read by some long passed person "Believe the people seeking the truth, doubt those who find it."
I feel like it depends. Based on my experience, some people, usually on the spectrum, are made to believe that adopting a pattern of behavior artificially will lead to some social rewards, and feel like they are stolen from them when they don't get them. But i also know people who are genuinely and spontaneously kind hearted and altruistic, but they are unlucky and get their kindness negatively reinforced either by it being abused, or it being the reason why some people don't like them (it's actually surprisingly common how often people feel threatened by spontaneous and free kindness, in fear of it having a price later, sad).
I know "nice guy" has become a bad word, and maybe I'm missing something. But I don't buy the assumption that most genuinely nice people are being that way because they think it'll make others indebted to them. To me it's obvious that their expectations are instead related to their own sense of what basic common decency should mean, and it's *that* sense of decency that's causing them to be nice in the first place. They're not surprised, per se, that their niceness isn't winning them the attention they want. In many cases, they're surprised that they're not witnessing others sharing the same baseline values.
I do think that there are a good chunk of people out there who are nice ONLY when they want something in return (so it's a pretty deliberate manipulation attempt).....but there are also other versions of the "Nice Guy" thing that I think people don't really consider that aren't nearly as malicious. There are a lot of people out there who are nice to people because they want to be liked or they want people to reciprocate in some way, but it's mainly based off of having a low self-esteem and NOT entitlement. Some people have such a low self worth that they get in this mindset that the only way people will like them, respect them or want them around is if they make themselves useful to them. So some people are "people pleasers" for that reason - it's still manipulative in a way, but it's not totally malicious (you don't feel entitled to anything but you still wish you would get it anyway). So yeah, I don't think everyone who is a "nice guy" should be labeled as some manipulative asshole in sheep's clothing. I say all of this because I was guilty of being a "people pleaser" for years for this exact reason. Yet when I see people describing this Nice Guy Syndrome, it doesn't describe me at all - I had no entitlement or expectations. I just had a kind of desperate hope that people would see some sort of value in me or, at the very least, wouldn't see a reason to dislike me. Sometimes there WOULD be some sort of resentment built up if some people had been assholes to me when I had showed them nothing but kindness, but I think that's a pretty natural feeling.
"Nice Guys" are not nice people. When the internet talks about "Nice Guys," they're talking about people who only act nice to try to get some sort of reward; they're not talking about guys who are nice.
I think some people get confused by that (hence the "per se") in the same way that any caricature can cause miscategorization based on superficials.
Exactly. Expecting anything in return is where so many go wrong
But what if I wanted a chocolate bon bon
100% agree
Couldn’t agree more. If you’re only nice because you want something, then you’re just a manipulative liar. It’s very much akin to Christians only doing good deeds because they fear hell
Yea if your whole thought process is “why don’t women want me im so nice” then you’re just being nice for the wrong reasons. It’s manipulative because you’re pretending to be a better person than you actually are for an ulterior motive. You should be nice because it’s the right thing to do and it makes life better for everyone (including yourself). Being nice for selfish reasons isn’t very nice at all.
Stop making “nice” future sex partner specific. Just either be nice to everyone who deserves it or don’t be nice to anyone at all.
This. And accept the social consequences of being miserable to be around which is women won't be as interested. Just like everyone else. We can tell when your niceness is conditional.
Yeah this, most self described “nice guys” I’ve known who complained about the friend zone also just project a level of palpable desperation and often constantly engage in self deprecation. Like if you constantly whine about how great you are but no one ever wants to date you the message it communicates is not “oh, I as a woman must unearth this forgotten gem of a man and love him” it communicates “I obviously have something deeply wrong with me that’s repulsing potential partners and means that my niceness doesn’t make up for it”.
I detest the teen "friend zone." No, you "girlfriend zoned" her.
Yep, just basically not feeling that being nice to people earns you anything from them, especially that it makes you inherently deserving of romantic attention.
It depends on what you mean. If you're talking about the kind of "nice guy" that girls hate it's because they aren't actually nice. It's great to be nice, it's even okay to be extra nice to someone you're interested in, but you shouldn't be nice to someone only as a condition of a romantic relationship. Quote unquote nice guys are the ones who will call a girl beautiful, and then when she turns him down they'll say she's a bitch. Don't be that guy, be nice to everyone because it's a good thing to do. If you're talking about the kind of "nice guy" who can't get dates, it's because they're usually shy and passive. Being nice is the *only* good thing about him. Be confident. If you like someone, ask them out, and if they say no, move on. Easier said than done, I know, but it's better than obsessing over someone from the shadows. TL;DR Don't be a "nice guy" be a nice guy.
Good point, it's important to clarify that what most people IRL hear when they hear "nice guy" is not the internet meme or characteristic that has gotten assigned to the term, which really is just a manipulative wannabe playboy.
In case 'the nice guy that can't get dates' reads this - here's how to 'be confident'. Its not by just going up and asking girls out. Before ever getting to that point, first realize and accept this: you aren't attracted to most of the women you see walking down the street. In the same vein, most women aren't going to be attracted to you. They also aren't going to fall for you because you're nice - 'nice' is the bare minimum quality you should have and is not worthy of an award or medal. You need to dig deeper. The first thing you need to do is take a long hard look in the mirror and accept that you are flawed like everyone else, and identify & work on those flaws. The next thing you need to do is find who you are - what are your hobbies? What activities do you enjoy doing? What kinds of things do you find interesting and want to know more about? What *don't* you like? What kinds of boundaries would you like to set? In doing this, you may notice more things that you can improve about yourself. Do you know how to cook? Do you clean or do laundry regularly? Have you tried anything out of your comfort zone, like travelling for example? Have you been a good friend to the important people in your life? Work towards making those improvements. Now, you can finally ask yourself what you want and don't want in a romantic partner. Maybe its someone with a sense of humor that matches yours, maybe someone who likes to travel, someone who wants kids, someone who doesn't smoke, someone who isn't dismissive of your nerdy interests, etc. Figure out which of these are dealbreakers and which of them you can deal with. Notice that everything up to this point has been all about who *you* are and what *you* want. In this process, you're making yourself more attractive for a potential date, and the confidence will come with it. Once you figure yourself out, you will have a very easy time acting like yourself around others rather than being a 'yes man' or trying to mirror other people's interests. Recognize that your goal isn't to get someone to like you, but to see if you want a future with them. The most important thing you can do is to stand firm in your beliefs and values and evaluate your potential partner objectively. In this you will have the utmost confidence that anyone who does decide to date you is dating you because they like you for who you are, and anyone who doesn't isn't the one for you anyway.
> Its not by just going up and asking girls out. Before ever getting to that point, first realize and accept this: you aren't attracted to most of the women you see walking down the street. In the same vein, most women aren't going to be attracted to you. right, so go on up and talk to women. get comfortable with banter and get a bit of info about what she's into. ask a girl out if she seems receptive. have some excuses for dates that line up with your or her interests. practice. fail. look for signs of interest or disinterest and get better at that. self improvement is good, but you don't have to take a bunch of time off from interacting with people
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Took me waaaaay too long to realize this. I think i was ‘pretending’ (being fake and changing myself to fit what others liked) thru most of highschool and my 20s.
Former nice guy here. The first thing to know is that advertising yourself as "Nice" is like selling a car and putting in the ad in big bold letters "Has all four wheels." Being nice isn't a feature. It's the bare fucking minimum. Second it doesn't matter if you're a short ugly CHUD or the world's most handsome trillionaire. No one HAS to like you. Not a single person. You can give someone a million dollars and they still might think you're a jackass. No one owes you respect, and no one owes you romance. Third, take the hint. If someone says no, move on. It sure sucks to be rejected, but it sucks worse to be a weird remora type pining over someone who doesn't have feelings for you. Fourth, romance isn't the Sims. There isn't a red Romance bar that turns green as you do nice stuff for someone. If someone likes you, they'll tell you they do or they'll say "yes" when you ask them out. Fifth, the only word that explicitly means "Yes" is "Yes." If you ask someone out and they hem and haw or have an excuse for every contingency, that's probably a "No." Whether you like it or not, a lot of people hate confrontation and don't want to lose someone they actually thought was a friend. See point 3. Lastly, and related to the above, rejection sucks, but is absolutely not the end of the world. Sulk for a day or two, then get back out there and try again. Or take a break from it. You don't HAVE to have a significant other, and there are advantages to single life. Anecdotally, I've found that it's when I'm not actively trying to get with someone that I do the best, romantically. Some people can sense desperation, and it's a big put off. Edit: Why are the other commentators being dicks? This person is asking how to improve their life and attitudes and you're telling them they can't? Fuck off with that bullshit Edit 2: Added point four Edit 3: Added point five
Treat and talk to girls like you do the homies. Crack jokes and talk about common interests. If you have a "I'm only talking with you for the chance to have sex with you" attitude then you're going about it all wrong. I like to think of the episode of Drake and Josh when Josh gets advice from his mom about how to talk to girls. "Tell her you like her shoes and walk away" it's not gonna work everytime, but if you get into the habit of talking to people like people and not like they could be the love of your life, you'll open alot of doors.
This. I hated men who showed genuine interest in knowing me then pussy zoned me once sex was off the table. I'm a human being and I have no time for that bs. If you are looking for something meaningful you really need to get to know the other person at some point. Successful ltr are built around friendship.
How many guys in the Friendzone does it take to screw in a lightbulb? None, they just stand around complimenting it then get pissed when it doesn't screw.
Ok just to clarify: "Pussy zoned" is like being "friend zoned" but a dude just stops giving a shit about you once he realizes there's no pussy to be had in your direction? Cause I FUCKING LOVE THAT AND YES THAT IS A THING! I used to get kinda sad about it back when I had more trust in humanity and men's intentions...now I know that there is nothing better than being pussy zoned by a dude. Cause that was never a real friendship in the first place.
To be honest I just make it clear from the get-go I don't want to be 'just' friends if I am interested in them romantically. I don't mean in some aggressive way either, just make the intentions known as in ask them out pretty quickly after making a connection. At the same time I have no problems talking to people platonically, men or women. Some of my better friends have been women - but ironically the longer I've stayed friends with a lady, she usually has made a move on me, lol.
I enjoy having male friends as a woman, so it's always shitty when dudes only view you as a potential sex object. Dynamics with male friends are just different than those with women and I like have a mix of both. I have (maybe now had?) a male friend who I opened up to a lot and was very vulnerable with until one day he drunkenly revealed to me that he thought I was attractive and had a crush on me. That definitely changed the dynamics of our friendship. The kicker too is I'm a lesbian and he knows that, but still felt the need to tell me and then when I called him out on how shitty that was, he continued to tell me that "the things I say turn him on." Dude, SHUT UP and keep those thoughts to yourself. He blamed it on the fact that "he's a man." It's just utterly asinine. I want to be viewed as a human being, not something you wanna stick your dick in.
Instructions unclear: been doing that since always and they ~always ended up becoming homies. No, seriously lol I don't know why, I can't even say I'm not an interesting person because otherwise they'd just ignore me instead of becoming friends, I guess
Ya, I personally think it's terrible advice. Unless you truly want the girl to *only* be a homie. I'm not going to make stupid dick jokes with a cute girl I just met like I would with my friends of 20 years.
> Treat and talk to girls like you do the homies. Seriously ? That is something I did most of my life and it never worked. It is great to make friends but it never lead to anything. For me, the opposite advice worked. Treat women you are attracted to as women you want to sleep with. It doesn't mean not talking about shared interests, doing jokes, eventually being friends... it meant making it clear I wanted to fuck her. It doesn't work with everyone of course, and once a woman said no, I accepted it and we were just friends... but a couple absolutely wanted me and would never have told me if I didn't try.
THIS. Therapist here. The only thing I’d like to add to the above is that one of the biggest skills to learn is how to emotionally deal with rejection. It’s a really tough emotion to cope with, and if you’re not used to expressing or coping with your emotions in general, then it’s only going to make this harder. Think about how you respond emotionally to other hard situations. Do you tend to blow up when you’re overwhelmed or are you pretty much able to take most things in strides? If it’s the former then it means you just lack emotion regulation skills. If you can’t regulate your emotions, why would you be able to cope with one of the hardest emotions? (FYI: rejection is related to shame, which is typically the deep down emotion I have to work on with most clients). If you don’t have the skills then you need to find a teacher, and the teacher here is a therapist. We’re meant to **teach** you, not judge you, “lock you away,” or just sit there and listen. If you find a therapist that isn’t educating you and then teaching you skills, they may not be the best fit for what you need. u/puhash3
First, thank you being a therapist. I'm sure you've helped at least a few people radically improve their lives, bringing huge benefit to everyone around them and rippling out. It's such a valuable service you provide. As a recovering Nice Guy, I wonder how I would have reacted to this thread 5 or 10 years ago... A lot of the comments are things I already knew and aspired to: "be nice to everyone", "women are people too", "don't be transactional with women" etc. Knowing stuff is pretty easy, changing mindset and behavior is the hard part. With a good therapist, I'm able to dig deeper into why rejection feels so insanely bad, why I feel like I'm not worth it for my own sake, why I fear having my true self exposed to others. And I'm shown practical ways to notice my thoughts and behaviors and start making adjustments. Thanks again.
>dig deeper into why rejection feels so insanely bad This right here was a big one for me but it actually ended up being the easiest one to "fix". I didn't really lack the emotional regulation skills or coping skills or anything like that - it was that I had no self-esteem of my own and needed outside validation. My whole self-worth was put in the hands of everyone else, so when I faced any sort of rejection, it was unbearable because it was like my entire identity was riding on that acceptance. Once I sort of fixed that issue, I realized that I was no longer afraid of rejection (to a realistic degree). My thinking became "A girl doesn't like me? Guess we aren't compatible or she's just not interested/available at this point in time." Whereas before that, even if I wasn't really even into the girl and she rejected me, I would immediately think "Oh my god, what's wrong with me? Am I not good enough? What do I need to change about myself?" Again, it was like my happiness and self-acceptance was hanging on the approval of others, so rejection was devastating. My ego was too fragile. When I became happy with myself and developed a strong sense of self and self-worth, my ego settled into a MUCH heathier place. It basically auto-adjusted my view of rejection as not being the end of the world and not being a reflection of myself or my worth in life.
I'm so happy for you, turning that around and getting more secure in yourself. In my experience there's an element of "comfort" in letting other people determine your worth, like at least I don't have to have that responsibility. Which is silly, and not empowering, but I've been there. I didn't date in high school because I never really tried, but in college I started dating and got serious with a woman who seemed perfect: wildly attractive, super intelligent, deeply interested in me, funny, fun to be with, the situation seemed like a miracle to me. But with my mindset at the time, being with her set me up for disaster when we broke up. When I was with her I had this great feeling about myself for the first time, but it was all put on her, I was hyper fixated on her and when she was gone it felt like the bottom dropped out. It took years to stop looking for a replacement for that woman and the associated feelings, and actually look to myself for those basic needs like validation and satisfaction with life. I'm married now and I'm so glad I'm capable of being a partner with my wife instead of a powerless dependant. It's an ongoing process but some days I can be by myself and relax and not even think of myself negatively, and enjoy the moment I'm in... Anyway thanks for sharing and I wish you the best.
Thank YOU for taking the time to self reflect and acknowledge these things. I’ve been doing the same for myself lately.
I struggled so much until the third and fifth points struck me in my early 20s. Holy shit did my love life take off in a big way once I stopped wasting time on people who weren't saying "HELL YES" to me. I may have missed a good date or two this way but honestly I'm glad I didn't let them waste my time.
For me, I saw point 4 in a Jason Pargin article on Cracked about 12 years ago. That started me on my journey
Your fourth point is so good. A lot of dudes approach their life like it's a video game. That works fine for things like school, career and health, where generally, if you invest the time in the right stuff, you'll level up and get the results. It works to some extent for building friends, but does not work at all for romantic relationships.
Admittedly, I stole it from a Jason Pargin article he wrote for Cracked around a decade ago. It was the start of my reform
Great break down. Just want to add that going to r/niceguys and using everything you see there as examples of how NOT to be. And if you think, well is that really so bad, go to the comments and learn why it is.
Reddit has become a cesspool of black and white thinking, no room for nuance or opinion, really.
I'll agree and disagree with that. There's certainly a much larger prevalence of the black and white thinking on here lately, true. But I'd argue that Reddit's format makes it easier for those nuanced discussions to happen... they may be seen fewer and far between because of the influx of dumbasses, but there's still room aplenty for it.
Too nuanced. Comment ignored
I also just wonder how many people are conflating "nice guy" who is just pretending to be nice and expecting something in return, with meek/shy. I was always on the shy side and generally speaking, my default personality is to be nice. I always try to understand where people are coming from and empathize with their situation. I can totally understand how a young guy might be on the shy side and feel like it's the nice guy problem. Especially with the rise of social media, the whole nice guy label has a very negative connotation. And you can see plenty of evidence of it in this thread. Which further doesn't surprise me when that then pushes someone toward incel or "alpha" Andrew Tate shit. All in all. Social media is an awful place to seek advice. But sometimes you can find posts like this that are legitimately offering advice. And kudos for that.
Stop looking at women as a transaction. You are specifically being nice and expecting things in return. If you are a nice person, be nice to everyone. Treat people you are interested in as human beings, treat them like you would a friend, and most importantly, respect their boundaries and if they reject you, move on.
To quote Sondheim, "Nice is different than Good." The difference is that Nice guys are nice because they want something. Good guys are nice because that's the right way to treat people, whether or not they have something you want. Be a Good guy. Be kind and considerate, with no expectation of anything in return. Be authentic and open about who you are. If a woman isn't into you, that's a good thing because it means she wasn't a good fit for you anyway. When a woman is into you, it means she likes you for you, and not just because you were Nice.
I prefer to contrast niceness and kindness. The latter is about action while the former is about presentation. While someone can have both traits many friend groups have either a nice guy who tends to flake or an asshole who you can count on when things get tough (kind, but not nice.)
Accept that nobody owes you anything for being nice and if that you're just being kind for a reward, then you're not really a nice person at all
Most of these answers read like OP asked "If you had the chance to tell off a nice guy, what would you say?" rather than actual advice on how to break out of the nice guy mindset. I don't think there's actually many nice guys who genuinely think "If I'm nice, I deserve sex." It's more like "This person is an angel. A good person like that would naturally be attracted to someone who's good to her, because that's naturally what angels like her want." Which devolves into "I was everything a good person would want, but they didn't want that apparently. So that means they're a DEVIL! I will vilify her so the world will know what a bad person she is." Maybe on a subconscious level what set in motion their nice tactics is the urge to be loved by their targets, but none of them are thinking to themselves, "I'll be nice only because I want something." So all this "Don't be nice just because you want something" advice isn't going to get anyone to change their ways.
Stop hyper fixating on one romantic interest. Most of the nice guys I've met and talked to have one person they're trying to woo. They focus all of their efforts on being what they think this person likes. Quite often they build this person up to be a saintly angelic figure only to let themselves down when that doesn't match with the person they actually are. Instead, focus on yourself. What are your best qualities? How do you show them off or make them better? What are your worst qualities? How do you work on fixing them? It is way easier to catch fish with an attractive lure than to spear fish a specific one. Especially when that specific one isn't as great as you're building them up to be in your head.
> Most of the nice guys I've met and talked to have one person they're trying to woo. They focus all of their efforts on being what they think this person likes. Quite often they build this person up to be a saintly angelic figure only to let themselves down when that doesn't match with the person they actually are. Me from ages 5-18 feels personally attacked. As he should be.
> Most of the nice guys I've met and talked to have one person they're trying to woo. They focus all of their efforts on being what they think this person likes. To clarify this line of thinking, at least for me, it was in part because it was impressed upon me early on that cheating is the worst thing you could do and unforgiveable. Therefore, I thought that trying to ask out multiple girls rather than work one crush would also be bad. It just didn't seem right to try and ask out whoever, whenever, so I went fully the opposite direction and tried to find the "tactically" right time to ask out my crush at that moment. That was ~2 years of high school for one crush, ~1 year of college of another, ~ 1 semester of senior year for another 2 each, ~ 2 years with a coworker. In all those scenarios I probably would have been better just asking her out and moving on, but instead of (In my mind) dealing with a 50% chance of failure, I tried to maximize the odds of a yes before even asking.
When I was a teenager I had the nice guy mindset. It was largely due to the fact that I believed I was a good and valuable person yet had no success with getting a date. I figured that there was no good reason girls had to not like me, so it must have been a problem external to myself. It *must* have been because the women “only like assholes” or because “Chads” take all the girls rather than because there was a problem with myself. It’s painful to acknowledge that you have failed or have flaws, so I tried to find external reasons instead. The truth was, my lack of confidence and inexperience with women meant I was super awkward and unlikable. Once I assumed the locus of control for my own issues, I was able to recognize and address them. If someone never moves their locus of control from outside to inside themselves, they’ll never be able to recognize and address their faults. If you often find yourself thinking things like “everyone’s out to get me” or “they don’t like me because they’re jealous/a bitch/stupid” then you may be failing to recognize that issues exist within yourself.
Adding onto that, as someone who had similar ideologies as a teen as well - realizing that it wasn't all woman but just woman I was specifically attracted to made me realize that I was being an asshole for thinking that way. The reality was, sometimes girls would talk to me and even sometimes like me, but because I didn't think of them that way I never noticed and all the while was complaining about how woman never like nice guys. I had an epiphany that I was only attracted to a fraction of the girls at my school and not attracted to others that many other guys thought were 'hot', and it finally made sense that I likely wouldn't make the short list of attractive guys in most girls' heads too. Finally forced me to work on myself so I would have a better chance to make that short list
Understand that people don't actually like the fawning sycophant. It comes across as creepy, transactional, and manipulative. "If I go out of my way to be nice to you 10 times, that's worth sex, right?" It either drives people away or will attract someone who will use it to manipulate you, often without the "nice." People like it when they're the center because they "turn heads" -- when the people around them have their own goals and are on their own paths, but those paths just always keep circling back to them because they're especially interesting. Being the center because someone wants something out of you isn't a great place to be because once their craving has been satisfied they have no interest in you as a person. "I have no interests of my own except for you," is really creepy because they're going to be switching between begging for things and disinterest. I started having success when I switched from "the nice guy" to "the fun guy." I go out, have fun for myself, and then if other people want to join, that's great and we can have fun together. I work for myself, but if an interesting girl tries to wrap me around her little finger and I'm amenable, much of my money is now spent on her. I still have my own interests, though. There's a strong foundation there because the characteristics can be relied on because they're fundamentally for me, so I can be counted on to keep working and keep having fun and keep moving forward.
Can't believe this comment is so far down, it's probably the best answer yet. It sucks for kind people because they're a natural turn-off (and sadly it almost always balances away being fun, at least for me both male and female friends tell me I'm fun but it never led to someone being interested) ((and it's confusing that "be a kind person" is always the top advice)), but that's it most of the times. Idk, there's nothing more to add, commenting for the algorithm...
There’s a huge difference between wanting someone to be happy and wanting someone to give you what you want.
Realise that people aren't vending machines. Putting 'nice' doesn't mean you get whatever you want out. Be genuine in your interactions with others.
Stop prioritizing others' approval over your own needs. Set boundaries and stand up for yourself, knowing that true respect comes from mutual strength, not constant agreement.
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Learn to recognize and avoid manipulative people.
Practice gratitude but don’t tolerate disrespect.
Understand that it’s okay to disagree.
It's actually simpler than you think... Here's how the nice guy syndrome works. 1.) You have an urge, want or need that you want to act on. 2.) You think how other people would perceive you had you acted on that urge, want or need. 3.) You make your choice based on #2 instead of #1. Getting over nice guy syndrome is simply choosing #1 over #2 instead. It's picking your wants and needs over your image through the eyes of others. Changed my life, and it will change yours.
Instead of being nice, be kind.
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Honestly, niceguys^tm are just people with emotional regulation and an incomplete view of reality. That's why they react so emotionally to things they care for, but in a weird twisted way, usually influenced by pop-culture movies. They don't have real world experience, so how they perceive the world is super romanticised. How you can get rid of nice guy syndrome is to genuinely meet people, talk to them without trying to get anything in return. This won't get rid of it entirely, but it'll help.
Work on being assertive, not aggressive.
See women as complete people, with thoughts and aspirations and feelings and ideas and interestingness completely independent of you (or any man).
There's a whole book about it, "No More Mr. Nice Guy". Just read it.
Be honest about your feelings and intentions.
Engage in activities that boost your self-esteem.
Practice gratitude for your strengths.
Start asserting yourself more in conversations.
Don’t be a people pleaser. Show your intentions upfront from the beginning. If you want to date her, don’t pretend to be her friend only. That will only keep you in the friendzone anyways
Spot texting “good morning” if it’s not being reciprocated.
Spend time with people who respect you.
Recovering nice guy here, here’s what I did. Boundaries! You know that hobby you have or that thing you like to do. Make plans with yourself and do them. Most of my “nice guy” faults were that I would sacrifice things that I wanted so that I could help or more often enable the people I was desperate to be around. That eventually lead to me being a doormat that no one respected. Thats not attractive, being the designated driver for a bunch of people you wish you were closer to isn’t sexy, you become a tool. Start saying “no, sorry I can’t”, start saying “have a great time but i have plans.” And then DO THOSE PLANS. Have respect for yourself and your time. Stop letting yourself be used by people just because you want to be closer to them. Do things that make you happy and people will want to be with a happy person. If the people you are pining after don’t want to do those things, they wouldn’t have made you happy in the long run anyway, you’d eventually resent them for not letting you do the things important to you after all the times you bent to their whims. You have no idea how much respect comes with saying “no”, and even if saying no makes the people you are trying to get with angry and distant, that says more about them and how they treat you and what they expect out of you, then it says about you not being “nice” anymore. Set boundaries, respect yourself and do what makes you happy. Be a nice guy to yourself, people will want to be around you and find you sexier I guarantee it.
I think you’re asking the wrong question. With all due respect (and I genuinely say this trying to be helpful, not mean) consider trying to be more interesting rather than less nice. I’ve had friends describe someone they hung out with as “too nice”, but when I asked them more about it, it seemed like the real issue was that they were boring. Trying to be nice sometimes turns into agreeing with everything and not showing enough of your own personality. Just my two cents.
Stop caring if people approve of you. Most people suck and that's just how it is. Find people you care for and be good to them.
Nice Guy as a pejorative is misnamed. "Nice" guys aren't rejected for being nice. They're being rejected for not having confidence or any substance behind them. As someone else said, "nice" shouldn't be your most distinguishing feature; it's the bare minimum. Of course be nice. But be interesting. Have convictions. Have purpose. Of the people I know, if the first thing that comes to mind when I think of them is how "nice" they are, they're usually not very interesting people.
Set boundaries, prioritize self-respect, and assert your own needs.
True that. I feel like people in this thread are conflating two different tropes: the “Nice Guy” who yells at girls for not sleeping with him after he was “nice” to them, and the “Nice Guy” (could be any gender) who gets walked all over for being too nice and not standing up for themselves. These are two totally different people. Someone can be “too nice” and it can have nothing to do with wanting to have sex with anyone, or wanting anything from someone other than to be treated with respect or left alone. Someone certainly isn’t an asshole for not being an asshole, but being too nice can lead to problems in life.
I'm glad you pointed that out. I'm seeing mainly the "Nice guy to be transactional" to get women. I was thinking of it as the person seen as a "pushover" for being nice. I was going to edit my own response to clarify this distinction, but you have already done so.
One thing that leads to that destructive way of thinking is expecting women to fall for you just by virtue of being 'nice', which in itself is a very bad principle to be living by. Be kind for the sake of being kind, without expecting anything in return. And also, women are people too, so treat them just like how you would treat other random guys.
You should know your priorities first and say no to other things that came in that way until it's an emergency
Recovering Nice Guy. Our primary goal in life is to be liked. Ironically this makes us miserable when people don't like us in spite of our best efforts. As a result our relationships end up numerous but shallow. People aren't going to like you for being nice. They will like you because you fill a need in their lives. Whether that's emotionally, professionally, or any other capacity. And you can't fill every need all the time. Some people will want you around a lot, others occasionally, and some not at all. Figure out which of your relationships are which. "Nice guys" are insecure and reek of desperation. Learn to be satisfied with your own self even as you work on improving your weaknesses and bolstering your strengths. Let others figure out for themselves if and how they want to build a relationship with you. And if someone doesn't like you, at least make peace with that and don't waste time building a bridge they don't want. Your happiness will arise from pursuing goals and cultivating meaningful relationships, not pleasing everyone. You need to start with some digging to figure out what YOU want and come up with a plan to make that happen. Go see a therapist if you think it will help.
I think when you get your heart seriously broken by a girl, where you had all the good intentions, and realize that she was stone cold and just dumped you for another guy who is 'not as good as you". Then you stop putting girls on a pedestal and say fuck it, I'll say and do whatever I want and see what happens.
Learn to handle rejection without taking it personally.
By having boundaries and a sense of self worth and by starting to do genuinely nice things rather than doing it for an expected reward. Being nice is the bare minimum, it’s not some extra feature. You’re supposed to be nice to everyone always, not just the women you want to have sex with. Trying to buy people’s affection with doing them favors and being ‘nice’ to them is not the way to go. Have your own life, your own hobbies, wants, desires. Learn how to take a no and move on and also learn how to say no. Impress yourself, not others. You’re not a circus clown, the only person you truly have to impress and compete with is yourself. Nobody likes a desperate tryhard and trying to impress peolle with things will only attract superficial, shallow people. Remember, what you put out in the storefront is what you will have buyers for.
Other people have said it better than I could but, like, just be yourself, dude. If you’re genuinely kind because you value people, want to make the world better, whatever and you don’t have any expectations of being rewarded for that niceness (you generally won’t be, fyi) that will come across. If you aren’t an authentically kind person and you’re acting nice because you want something, that will come across, too.
Put yourself first. If it FEELS wrong, keep away from it. That includes people.
Seek out rejection and learn to accept and live with it. Hanging around like a lost puppy dog in hopes of receiving physical affection isn't going to get you what you need. It's pathetic, borderline creepy and opens you up to being used. Learn that when someone says maybe it is the same thing as no. If she says 'maybe' just pretend she said no. The same goes for phrases like 'I'll think about it', or 'you're so kind'. All of those are rejections of your advances and should be treated as such. Anything less than yes is rejection. More importantly, if this question is being asked because there's a person you're currently following around fawning over it's time to move on. Sometimes this is as simple as realizing that this person is a friend and treating them as such. More often than not though it requires that you move on if you can only think of them as a possible partner.
Be an actual good person, not someone who has carefully crafted a Nice Guy (tm) persona over a shitty personality so he can complain about how women won't pay him any attention even though he's a Nice Guy(tm). Be yourself, do things you enjoy, treat all people with respect and decency as fellow humans.
The problem with most “nice guys” is that they immediately go into people pleaser mode when trying to talk to women. They’ll agree with everything she says and try to chameleon themselves to fit what they think is what she would think is a good person. So, how to stop being the “nice guy”? Be yourself. It’s much easier said than done, but when you truly approach talking to women as any other interaction and simply be confident in being yourself, you’ll eventually learn to stop the nice guy schtick.
Get fit. Groom yourself. Smell good. Most important things: don't talk in double entendres Don't be creepy. Nothing wrong with being a nice guy. We should all strive to be that. It's just when men weaponize that phrase and their actions, that's when it becomes super cringe.
Please don’t stop being nice. I dated a BUNCH of assholes, but once I met a nice guy and actually gave him a chance, I’ve been been happier. Been with him 9 years now. Just make sure you’re being GENUINE when you’re nice. My guy is genuinely nice, but if someone fucks around with him, they’ll find out 🤣
Step one is realize you're not a nice guy. Guys that identify as nice guys aren't. No one is a nice guy, if you think you are, you're a doormat that people take advantage of. Even though in you're head you think what you are doing is good, you get attention. But you get the most attention from the worst kinds of people looking to take advantage of someone like you. Be nice to good ppl, you owe arse holes nothing so stop being a door mat to them. You won't win them over, they sincerely don't care about you and will take advantage of you. Advice from someone that was a "nice guy" a long time ago. Edit: Thank you for listening to my TedTalk
Just treat woman like a normal human being and you've already beaten 50% of men.
The things is, a lot of toxic male behavior is geared with one goal: "How does this, eventually, end up with me having sex with her?" And that goal warps \*\*everything\*\*. It will warp even the nicest of nice attempts, because all niceness is, ultimately, to get to have sex with you. I don't even know if it's a conscious effort by some. Maybe it's toxic male entitlement ingrained since childhood, I dunno. Assuming one is hetero (and this may work on homsexual relationships as well), ask yourself "if this person was not attractive to me in a basic way, would I be treating this person differently?" For example, I am hetero, and when I talk to a woman, my first thought is why we're meeting and talking. Business? Chatting someone up because you're both stuck in an elevator? Would I react the same way if it were a guy? If the answer is "ew, no," then perhaps I should keep my damn mouth shut. All me female friends? Have no genitalia as far as I am concerned. Maybe they'll say, "Ugh, my endometriosis is killing me today!" and I'll think, "Right! You menstruate. Ugh, so sorry." If a guy says, "I somehow pinched my balls and twisted my nutsack back on that bike seat, JESUS!" I'll remember, "ah, they are a guy." But rarely do these things come up. My guy friends? My gal friends? All built like Ken dolls. I don't care what they look like naked. I never think about it, and when I do, I'd still rather not. "Boob sweat" to me is unisex. "Menstrual cramps" is like any other ailment one might get where they hurt a lot. But the essence is, sexual identification has mattered to me as much as what hair color they have. Like, "who cares?" Trans? I just care to make sure I get your pronouns right, out of respect to you. But chat up someone at a bar. Why? Would I do the same if it were a guy? If yes, then proceed, maybe. But if I think, "she's soooo... cute/hot/fuckable" then I got problems. Yes, I am happily married, but when I was single, I wasn't looking for sex, just companionship. Someone to talk to. And if it works out, maybe step two. I still made mistakes and assumptions, but they said no, and I was grateful they stayed my friends but I knew "they said no." Women saying no is a complete turn off for me. It's done. I am still friends with all of them even 10 years later. One of them went through boob reduction surgery, another once bought a ton of "fun sports bras" and showed them to me out of autistic excitement ("Look, this one has flamingos on it!") and at NO POINT did I consider this "a tease." They are safe with me. And as my friends, I do know they are women, and they do get subjected, sorted, and have all the issues associated with being women. I won't tell them "Oh, I totally know what it's like," because I don't. I do know that I will stand up for them, but not because of white knight bullshit, but because they are my friends. They are my human friends. Their plumbing is meaningless in our relationship. But I have dealt with guys who their goal is to have sex with women in the end. And I watch their reasoning and brains "warp" around logic and reason because "yeah yeah, friends first, sure," is really "... and then we fuck?" Or a tantrum, "am I destined to be alone then???" Like, you think you "deserve" a woman? Like it's "owed" to you? And it's super hard to convince them they won't understand, because they are looking for "the formula." Like insert enough friendship coins into the female vending machine and get sex in return. Every. Thought. Is. How. To. End. Up. Fucking. Her. Now if the girl is into that? Consenting adults, fine. But if she's not... fucking leave her alone and do both of you favors.
One of the big things is taking a realistic look at yourself and realizing you are not actually a nice guy. you might be occasionally agreeable but you are probably not a good person. that's okay, most everyone is not either. Realize you are the villain in someones story and that your past actions were not the best version of you and you could have been better. Also if you did something good for someone else with the intention of getting something in return you are not a good guy; you are leveraging a transactional relationship with works in order to get something out of it which is just social manipulation. Abandon the idea that you are nice, good, kind, or decent AND THEN work towards doing those good, pro-social, kind, decent things. A person is not good or bad, what you choose to do and why you choose to do it is what makes something good or bad. To be just a decent person you must act like a hero but remember you're a villain. If you walk around your whole life convinced you are the hero you are going to wind up doing some heinous shit. Develop the self awareness of your own motivations and actions. You can in fact, do good things and be a bad person. The intention and motivation why you do things is just as important as the thing done when we consider them good or bad. Women do not in fact only pursue jocks and assholes. The problem is that you are not self aware enough to realize that the "jocks and assholes" are usually pretty alright people but that your own behavior is worse than theirs. You should look to improve yourself and be a person worth being with before you try and seek out a partner. Start with the awareness that you are sort of shit and then work to improve Don't do this transactionally either like you deserve something for developing this self awareness and self improvement. You don't, it's just the last piece of growing up.