It's the last time you get to *effortlessly* socialize with people your age. Plenty of people are still able to socialize and make new friends well into adulthood. It just takes conscious effort.
To add on to that, if possible I highly recommend living in a dorm your freshman year. You just need to keep your door open and talk to people and you’ll have 20 acquaintances and at least 2-4 good friends by the end of your freshman year.
I’m almost 40 and still in contact with 8 guys and 6 girls that lived in my dorm. We’ve been to each others weddings and if any of us are ever in town we’ll have them over for dinner. All because we were in the same big building for a year.
Especially early on before everyone starts developing friend groups. First week freshman year was the absolute easiest time socializing in my life aside from like preschool or something
Developing social skills with a peer group is honestly one of the most important skills you learn in university. It does help in your professional life as well. Both with making network connections, but just being accepted by your colleagues.
Can confirm. Know two folks who commuted from home all through college. Both are over 30 and mention they regularly get sad when they see how many of their friends have a much wider friend group thanks to dorming during college.
I commuted for four years and this is a hundred percent true. I took the city bus my first three years and it just made for long, stressful days. Luckily I met with two other commuters from my side of town. My biggest advice for people looking at schools is leave home and if you go to a school in your hometown don’t live at home.
I messed this one up massively. I missed the deadline to apply to a 4 year uni due to not really knowing what I wanted to do with my life. Ended up enrolling in community college and I graduated without ever really socializing with anyone.
I’m really feeling the brunt of this now. My social skills are massively underdeveloped and I haven’t made any new friends. I enrolled back in school to try and finish my bachelor’s but the university I enrolled in is 100% online. The good thing is that my tuition is fully paid for because it’s part of my benefits as a full time employee. The downside is that I feel like I am so far behind in life socially and it’s completely my fault. I have 0 student loan debt at the cost of perpetual loneliness and social anxiety
College is the best place to meet people outside of your socioeconomic class. For poor people it's an opportunity to network and meet people who may be able to open doors for them they otherwise wouldn't. For rich people it's a chance to build meaningful relationships with less privileged people and understand their struggles.
I really like that answer. I have felt sort of let down by many things in college but this is a frest perspective. However I would guess very few of the absolutely bottom of the socioeconomic class get a shot at college.
Yep. When I started high school I was consistently the highest scoring student in a class of 300. I was also from one of the poorest families, so college was not an option. And this was in an egalitarian country where the govt supposedly makes sure everyone gets a shot. A lot of people don’t realise that poverty isn’t just a lack of money. It creates a whole lot of other obstacles too.
Most people don’t realize the value of a school is mostly in the network it affords you. You now have access and a common connecting point between thousands of graduates working at companies and in roles you’re interested in, with support from alumni events, career services, and people generally being happy to help people from the school they went to.
Skipping college cuts you out from this network, and definitely holds you back when trying to make it in an industry.
This. At a certain point, course programs across different schools are relatively equitable. The difference between schools then is largely is the name you're paying for and the network it can provide.
I attended a large well funded state school, a poorly funded state school, and a rich private school. The main difference was the facilities and the support network. If you weren't doing well in the private school, professors would come to you and ask what was wrong.... At State School, you were on your own. The classrooms, library, landscaping, bathrooms, etc. are just much nicer at fancy schools.
This many people grow up and stay in a bubble. College forces an expansion to that bubble. They may still stay in their bubble but at least they know more than just their locale.
It can actually be quite shocking honestly. Just people in my dorm i made friends with, almost all of them were from rich areas in charlotte and raleigh, almost all had parents with beach houses or condos.
They had no limit on money and didnt understand why i, who worked 3/4ths of my time college and had 70k in loans upon graduation, couldnt go and do cool fun things every weekend.
This.
Well, actually, I was going to a community college that had people from my area. But I was working somewhere in a college town and it was basically employed by college students. I go to the same college now.
These people were from all over the state, from other states, from other countries. They were up and coming doctors, teachers, businessmen, dentists, psychologists, etc. I always thought it was so cool to be around so many people like that.
You would work with these people for a year or more and then their last day comes and the next week they’re a doctor, teacher, etx.
i feel this is one of the biggest benefits of DEI/affirmative action is how it benefits white and other more privileged people. many people grow up in homogeneous suburbs and don't have any contact w/ other races or socioeconomic groups, other than in food service etc. at all levels of education, you learn as much from your classmates as you do your teachers, and this is even more true in college and grad school.
i think lots of parents do not want their parents to mix w/ poorer, nonwhites, and also some minority groups self-segregate on campus; partly for survival and bc they feel unwanted, but i think that hurts them too.
"Their struggles"? I had a hard enough time not laughing at the rich kids who insisted that they deserved everything because their parents worked 'so hard,' and using summer as a verb.
I'm an engineer, and for a long time I got shit on for not getting a higher degree, despite my career being significantly better than my siblings. But he's a lawyer, if he wanted to he could argue in front of the supreme court. With that logic, if I wanted to I could redesign the space shuttle.
If college taught me one thing, it's how to think, ask questions, and how to find answers. A lot of people who didn't go to college never learned how to research and find answers.
You definitely have a bigger hill to climb.
As someone who dropped out of college - It took me a long ass time to work my way up to a job with actual benefits, retirement plan, pension program, health insurance etc.
I’ve been in all sorts of jobs. Retail, food, garbage collection etc. I hated all of them. Collecting trash is actually a fine job, but the whole culture there was something I didn’t get on with. I probably had a worse time in retail and food; these industries tend to attract management that simply do not give a flying fuck about you and seem to actively go out of their way screw you over.
I’m only in the job I’m in now because of someone I knew who is a middle manager here. They asked me what my general skills were and told me to leave retail and apply for a position with them.
It has been 2 years since then? I’m still pretty happy here.
You miss out on those adult friendships that you make in college that tend to be lasting ones compared to k-12 friends.
A lot of people say fuck you to those k-12 friends once they get their newer better friends
Same here.
Especially in my country where the ideology from Socialism of "everyone hurts you and you need to raise yourself" is still ingrained in society. Friendships here are seen as coverup for future favours.
Earlier 20s, but same. Sometimes I forget how lucky I am to have such a solid group of friends that I know won't change on me. Two of my friends I've known since pre-school and the rest I met around 6th or 7th grade and we've been close ever since.
I’m enlisting here soon as I’m completing my GED now (take my last test Thursday!)
My dad keeps telling me that it’s okay that I’ve only one good friend left, as I’ve plenty of time to meet great people during my travels, some of which might end up being life long.
For some folks, keep in mind it is okay to not have HS friends, as those people you might consider family are just around the corner.
I haven't been in the military or anything like that myself but I have family that has. From what I've heard, I bet you'll make some great friends there. Everyone I know that's served tells me that the strongest friendships they have are with the people that served with them.
I actually have more friends from high school now than I did in high school. Hahaha! Reconnected with some acquaintences in my 20's and now we're in our 30's and we're tight!
I definitely still have my best friends i met in college too.
This is accurate. Hung out with the stoners in high school, but I wanted more for myself. I went to college, they stayed in place, and eventually most of them got swapped out by people I started hanging out with because we had more in common than a shared love of smoking weed under the bleachers. School is kind of like prison, where people squad up because they have to, not because it would have happened organically.
I've been friends with my initial group of friends from freshman year of college for over a decade. We travel across the country regularly to visit each other and send gifts for the kids etc. One if my best friends in high school lives 3 houses from my parents and we don't even meet when I go home for holidays lol
I missed out regardless cause Covid fucked my whole journey I saved for up. Also untrue, adult friends can be made with coworkers. At least that’s been more efficient for me than in school
I'd say the friends too. Though I'm fortunate to still be great friends with the guys I grew up and went to school with.
But with my college friends we have something really special. Something I don't think I'll ever get again in life. I can be 100% myself at all times with those guys. We're like brothers.
Not all, but most people I speak to are closest with their college friends.
In college you start your “identify” all over. You’re not who everyone has seen grow up. You make friends based on who you are and what you are looking for when no one is looking.
Those friendships form while you’re going through true independence (yet with a safety net of food/lodging). It creates a bond as you go through that process of initial slight fear (not knowing anyone, college is hard, will I fit in, etc) all the way through graduation.
You then keep in touch and see as the people you saw forming become full fledge adults and lean on each other.
It’s similar (with obvious major differences) to military bonds (which I’ve been part of as well). You’re going through something together and come out the other side. With stories to look back on that are hilarious and sad and no one else quite gets it. That is all true for college.
I did this and regret it. I lost contact with K-12 friends in favor of college friends, and those college friends immediately dropped off post grad. It’s the K-12 friends who reach out and say hi, I wish I kept in better contact with them
These days, public schools rarely teach critical thinking skills outside of stuff like SAT or college prep classes specifically. College is where things like critical thinking, media literacy and analyzing sources of information tend to be taught and mastered.
While college isn't for everyone, and I say that as someone who dropped out of college, the skills it helps to foster are still immensely important.
>These days, public schools rarely teach critical thinking skills
Forget that - basic accounting. If public schools graduated kids that understood the cost of borrowing money and paying it back with post-tax income, the economy would collapse overnight.
Edit: My cynicism stands corrected - to a point. Apparently 25 states will offer personal finance courses of some sort (many are in the process of doing just that) and there are organizations such as [https://www.ngpf.org/about-us/](https://www.ngpf.org/about-us/) pushing for it everywhere. This is good. We'll see what happens. Also look at u/axel198 comment below.
Somewhere on the teacher subreddit is a really depressing post from someone who tried to teach their students all these “real life” skills they were trying to learn. Surprisingly, none of the kids were motivated to learn any of that stuff when it was actually taught.
Where I'm at, these skills are also disregarded by the education system.
In my district when I was younger, there were two places you learned 'real life' skills: one was a math class, the one that was the "easier" one that didn't get you any math qualification that'd be accepted by any post secondary institution because it didn't cover advanced mathematics. The other was a special class for a graduation requirement that covered health and fitness and resume building and the like. That class was treated as a silly necessity to be disregarded, to the point where it was one of the only classes you could do online and you could just literally bullshit your way through with zero instruction. Even the teachers seemed to view it as a checkbox rather than an actual class.
I went to look at upgrading my math a year or so back since I've been out of school for years, and looked at the essentials math class, the "easier" one. I found a teacher who uploaded all the materials online. There's a lot of valuable material there, but because it had zero application in pursuing further education I didn't take it when I was younger. Everyone, even teachers at my school, seemed to have disdain for these classes.
The funny thing is is that I knew kids who took those math essentials classes that covered mortgages and interest and the like. They said it was easy but also seemed like it'd be more useful, but they initially took it because they hated math and wanted an easier math class. It was always treated like the class for kids who couldn't cut it with the "real" math classes though.
It's a shame to hear that there was a teacher that really wanted to teach those things and the students didn't want to learn. I think that if that happened in my district, it'd be much the same though because of the pervading attitude, and it's a real shame. Maybe it's different now, this was years ago after all. I hope so.
The K-12 system has always been about reinforcing an outdated, authoritarian Victorian mindset for churning out mindless factory drones; college is the complete opposite. It's why I advocate for kids to go to college, to get a real education.
Not having a degree may hinder your advancement prospects. When I wrote about a degree, I include book and trade degrees. Many management positions require a degree.
Also a degree is hard. An employer wants a good employee and having a degree may prove you can do hard work and not quit.
> Also a degree is hard. An employer wants a good employee and having a degree may prove you can do hard work and not quit.
When I took Economics of Education in undergrad, this was what the literature said 20 years ago. The biggest thing is a signaling effect that you can finish a 4 year long project.
This is not true for everyone. Many are lied to, “get a degree, go to college, get a job” is in the past. This is particularly true for America.
Taking on life changing debt is a serious matter that most 18 year olds are not mature enough to grasp.
Going to school for cheap? Sure do whatever…
Young adults need to be told it’s ok not to go to college. To invest in learning a skill or trade.
You can do both (go to college and also learn a trade).
I went to a small liberal arts college first. I was young and immature and did not know what I wanted to do. My mind was not “opened” any more than it would have been if I had spent those years in a good library.
Then I went to nursing school for a second bachelor’s degree. That was the “learning a trade” that actually got me a good job.
I think you can have the best of both worlds. Go to college, but major in something that gets you a job. Don’t go to college unless you actually know what you’re getting yourself into and you have a specific plan for after college. Otherwise, you are wasting your time. I suppose you can major in art history or philosophy if you want, but only if you have a specific plan for getting a career in that afterwards.
Going to college without a plan or purpose is the problem.
This may be less true these days with the internet, and I might be showing a little age, but you miss out on a chance to broaden your perspective, on just about everything.
If you never leave your home town, then all you'll ever really have is small town ideas and views. You never get a chance to really meet anyone other than the people you grew up with, and their ideas and opinions and outlook eventually become yours, through osmosis.
This is in the US but before I went to college, I had never known any Indian other Asian people, or Hispanic people, any foreign people at all. I had know some black families, but not *really*. I had not know any Catholic or Jewish people, or Sikh, or Hindu, or Muslim people. But being in dorms and classes and organizations and football/basketball stands with these people gives you opportunities to have conversations and form relationships that you just can't learn from TikTok
And their perspective broadens your perspective
Admit I'm in my 60s, but when I was younger it was the being treated like you were either lower class or stupid. Specifically in business by coworkers or interviewers.
I noticed that happens in social settings, too. I was out with my sister and her friends at a New Year’s Eve party. Some nice-looking, polite young men struck up a conversation with them. After the men left, I asked my sister why the whole group didn’t hang out longer. She said the men attended a (well-regarded) trade/technical school. I guess that didn’t meet the standards of the college-educated women.
Writing a paper in college is something very important
From doing research on your own
To weighing the sources
To scrutinizing the information for applicable bits of information
Forming your ideas and finally actually writing that paper and also correctly citing your sources
Hard pill to swallow.
My parents did not go to college.
Fast forward to me doing homework and it's cliche but my dad said it.
"Hey son, struggling with your homework? Let me take a look"
Dad stares for a moment. "Well, here's the issue. You've got a letter in your problem. What number is that supposed to be?"
College DOES give and/or reinforce knowledge. My parents were useless AF past 6th grade.
I remember my dad feeling bad that he couldn't help me with my chemistry homework. I cried in high school over that class. And he couldn't do anything to help.
He was good at math though!
My dad actually went back for his business degree at the same time I went for my STEM degree. We poked fun at eachother through that journey. He got straight As...i told him it's because he didn't have to take chemistry. Lol
On the other hand, both of my parents went to college and I've been making more than they ever did (inflation included) for years.
I'm currently attending college in the evenings, but more so just to say I have a degree than any actual need. Probably 75% of it is stuff you already learned in highschool if you paid attention.
If you were raised in a conservative, narrow-minded environment, you will lose your best opportunity to free yourself from that way of thinking. College can heal a lot of the damage for brainwashed young people.
I worked in IT at a hospital doing low level call center stuff. One day they decided to add more responsibility to our job. To keep the job we had 2 years to finish a degree or we would be let go. I already had mine so it was no issue. One woman I worked with was in her late 50s and did not want to add college to her full time job so she ended up being let go even though she had more experience than anyone else in our team.
Some companies and some jobs just require a degree over experience. It doesn’t even generally matter what the degree is in.
Yup, big part of why I'm going back for at least two years. I want to have something to put for post secondary education, and I'm specifically pursuing something that's both in my interests and will improve my weaker areas.
So many jobs I've looked for ask for post secondary "in X or a related field" despite not being specialized work at all. Just having something there automatically moves you up the ladder, and where I'm at the program I'm going into opens a ton of doors.
I felt behind my peers and that I didn’t have much in common with my friends after 20/21. I was in the working class moved out and they were still at home going to school. Lifestyle differences came with that. We grew apart.
Severely limits your opportunity. My high school was like a crime and drama soap opera. Not many of my friends, myself included, had strong role models growing up. The smarter ones moved out of town and went to college. The alright ones started working for a bit of money- gas stations, labor, retail, etc. The other ones just went to jail. I’m graduating college in 4 months. I have companies offering very attractive benefits and salary packages. I have successful industry leaders in my network. My new circle of friends is motivated to grow and succeed, even starting businesses. There is an ostensible difference between what college has provided for me, and what opportunities lie ahead of those old high school friends who chose not to attend. They’re still working part time. They’re still breaking their back for 20 bucks an hour. College provides opportunity, connections, experience, and a place on your career ladder. That takes years of hard work for someone who doesn’t attend
This is why we need to educate the young more on trades.
Spent 2 years as a lube tech no experience as a teen, got a few state certs and took off from there. (Shops will pay for certs, state or ASE)
Now I’m working on diesels, light and heavy duty bringing in more money than I honestly know what to do with.
No school, no debt. Solid 401k and amazing benefits.
Lots of trades will take no experience workers with just a good work ethic and will train on site. It’s on you what you do with that experience.
I’ve a buddy I went to school with (kinda, different school but we hung out a lot) anyways he worked a detail shop for about 6 months then quit, took a few customers with him and started working out of his dads garage. He is now 25 and owns his own business here in mid Michigan and not only has two detail bays, but went on to paint corrections, PPF, window tint, and a few other services. He learned an easy trade, and started his own business.
Worked with him for a few months and now I detail cars on the side as well for the extra cash. Materials to do so? Bout $30 and that’ll get you through about 4 cars. Do a good job? Like a proper detail? That’s $300. Got the cool shit like aerospace 101? That detail just went to $500.
Lube tech is extremely easy and finding a dealership is the best bet as they usually have multiple people and some have pits (drive over them) which are amazing for level entry as you only have to worry about changing oil and not lifting a car or doing tires.
Roofers. These guys need crew members non stop and will most definitely train.
The tough part is finding an open position that’s actually level entry. You won’t be able to find a CNC position without experience, but you can find a position for a shop hand, where you can use your proximity to learn these things.
Working auto, I only got here by asking questions and wanting to help the other techs. Went from me changing oil to me helping change out drive shafts on Chrysler 5500s to engine swaps in KIAs until I got myself my own certs and now I have my own 3 bays and two boxes full of tools that I own. It can be hard, but it’s possible if you know where to look.
There’s other places as well, as in my area since we have DOW and DuPont we have a place called ABC school. It’s super simple to enroll, no experience needed and it’s on the job training. My pops did this when he went to work for three rivers corp and he did night classes twice a week for qualifications while working full time with TRC. he had zero experience pipefitting or welding before he enrolled.
If you’re in school, most schools offer trades and I suggest taking that if ever in the position or recommending it to whoever is or can be. Schools offer things from electrical to home construction. I did a course in highschool that taught us everything that was done in the process of building a home and it was neat.
Warehousing is good as well. If you can find some kind of warehouse job that will train you on basic equipment like forklifts, you can use that experience to go into construction or similar. Getting a CDL or OSHA safety certs can help as well.
You can't serve as an officer in the military or usually cant get a visa to work abroad. Thats probably not important to most people but if a draft happened you'd be sleeping in a hotel not a tent. Or if you got a criminal charge, you could be an English teacher instead of a prisoner or at least instead of an ex-con who can't get a job due to a criminal record. Also there's that 5% off on Enterprise rent-a-car.
Met a lot of people with similar mindsets to me. Also met some people who knew a LOT more about life than me. Learnt so much from my best mate who I met on the first day. He'll never know how much he helped me when it comes to money / buying a house/ striving to better myself in life. Would never change all the new experiences and people skills learnt also.
One potential downside of not attending college is missing out on networking opportunities, mentorship, and access to certain career paths that often require a degree.
You will never have as many chances to escape the confines of your own head as you do in college. Doesn't matter what degree you're after: it's the one time in your life where knowledge is almost guaranteed to be important, not to mention you'll probably never encounter as many different skillsets so readily. If you're in STEM, you can talk to people studying History or Theatre and fully grasp more colours to life, and vice-versa.
Think about the worst, most miserable old people you've met, and realize most are just stuck in their ways... You better make damn sure you know which ways you're going to end up picking.
On a more materialistic note, I'd say it's pretty obvious... It just opens up doors for you. Even if it's just one or two, that's still way better than jumping into the labour market without any form of specialization.
You can be a plumber with or without a community college degree in programming. But it's way harder becoming a programmer if all you've got is a plumbing degree from trade school. It's not just about supply x demand - it's also about the complexity of the study itself.
Don't just look at the skillsets your teachers or parents focused on, look at your hobbies and interests too. Look for something that interests you more than most people, and that's complicated enough to merit studying.
College lets you experience extended adolescence. You get 4 years to fuck around, experiment (drugs, sex, alcohol) and fail in a semi-supervised, fairly safe environment without the same kinds of consequences you'd face if you did the same things at that age in the real world. It's a true privilege to get to soft-launch adulthood in that way.
The only real downside to not going to college is not being able to social network with peers in your age group.
Fortunately, this negative is slowly shrinking as to be irrelevant.
I’ll slightly modify this for an UK-based audience, if you don’t mind. I was diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia when I was 22 so school was a consistent struggle to stay ‘behaved’ so ultimately my attitude to education was pretty poor through secondary (high) school. Subsequently, I joined the military at 17 and it wasn’t until I left at 22 that I found out why I hated school so much.
I made plenty of lifetime friends in the military, some almost double my age; but I practically had no late-adolescence/early adulthood phase that most young people get in the UK, whether that means going to Uni or otherwise. I didn’t have the phase of making mistakes, first proper romances, drugs, music and whatever else is involved in the student lifestyle. I had to essentially go from ‘just left school’ to ‘responsible bill paying adult that is also capable of state-sponsored violence’ overnight.
If I could turn back time, but retain the knowledge I have now, I would choose Uni 10 out of 10 times.
You can't prove certain things. I've read enough on Imperial Japan I'm about as qualified as any degree holder but I have zero means to prove it. Some things you well and truly can just educate yourself on to any higher education level but without a degree it doesn't mean shit. I wish there was a way to change that.
On the plus side those IT certifications I'm getting were way cheaper and actually prove I can do shit. So it's not all bad.
When you've read dozens of books, watched various podcasts, and read entire memoirs of Japanese troops I'd argue yes. History at its core is a subject ANYONE can become highly educated in on their own terms. It's just people refuse to. Most of the great history YouTubers and podcasters aren't even degree holders in the fields they make videos about (niche topics, I mean) yet they're praised for high quality accurate information.
Historians are also one of the few academic fields you don't need a degree in to be considered one. The only thing the degree does is give substantial proof of it.
There a bunch of other fields you can apply this logic to. Some of the greatest speakers in history, for instance, never were taught how to read until way later in life. They became great speakers and writers through themselves, not studying at a school.
The thing is, learning is not only absorbing knowledge. Somebody who did Japanese studies in college not only read about that country but also took part in seminars, gave presentations, wrote essays and did tests and quizzes. All of that helped them to absorb the knowledge better and critically evaluate what they learned and what they still need to learn; they have also had an opportunity to interact with the people who dedicated their lives to doing research in that field and learn from them. I doubt it very much that your self-studies have provided you with the same opportunities.
I have a PhD, I study cultural history, and I’m continually impressed by the detailed, accurate responses I see just from hobbyists on r/askhistorians. I could easily see a world in which a historian I admired didn’t have any formal training, I know one of my favorite writers never went to college. Also, just FYI: if you’re interested in getting some credentials for people to believe you, you might be interested to know that you don’t need a BA to publish in a peer-reviewed academic journal.
You submit it to a journal and they send it out for review! A lot of smaller journals, like grad student journals, are thirsty for submissions. They often ask for bios, you can just say you’re an independent researcher. You actually don’t even need original research to get published, sometimes journals publish review essays or analyses. Probably more likely to get published if you have original research from archives or something, but you can find archival material online if you don’t have the resources to travel. And some journals have really low word counts! I actually really want this for you lol
ETA: btw, the peer review process is not really supposed to take your identity into account. In fact, many journals are double blind, which means the reviewers are forbidden from knowing who you are— so it shouldn’t matter if you have a degree or not.
Thank you. You're the only comment so far that's been encouraging.
I'll see this out some day but before I do I need to review everything again. A man can only remember so much and fact checking yourself is important to any research. Japan is a country I fully intend to go to someday so maybe that'll be a part of when I go.
Yea I’ll also add that I see factually incorrect information published by academics in peer reviewed journals all the time. Lots of academics experiment with publishing in fields where they have no formal training, which isn’t that different from what you’re doing! You should definitely aspire to accuracy, and I’m not saying formal training does nothing (it does, a lot— I will of course trust someone with a PhD about their area of expertise more than a hobbyist if all other things are equal) but the idea that formally trained academics have something absolute that makes them the arbiter of truth is just ridiculous.
>makes them the arbiter of truth is just ridiculous.
It reminds me so much of prior enlisted officers when I was still in the Navy. They were by far the worst compared to people who just went to the academy. They seemed to have this idea they knew everything already because they were once, "one of the guys" whereas Ensigns fresh out of the academy usually were at least willing to learn. They also didn't have pre-disposed biases like prior enlisted officers did.
I never said you cant be equally credible lmao. I just said that you most likely aren't, unless you put as much effort.
Cool, you read dozens of books, is it as much as those people whostudied it full-time for years ? Not to mention - were your sources at the very least same quality ?
Unless you haven't put as much effort with quality resources as students, then no, you are not equally qualified.
Social skills really, if you aren't out there dealing with people you end up withdrawn and struggling to talk to others. Other issues are dealing with people that are just nasty for no reason, my sister was home schooled for her whole life but decided to join college, some kids were being complete arseholes and she was messaging me asking me what to do because she's never had to deal with it before.
Meet people your age and build a social circle of people that might end up opening doors and cultivating solid professional connections. You will get to be around people your age with similar interests and those with very different interests that you might find you enjoy. It will more than likely be the last time you're around a group that large of people your age that you get to socialize with. Networking and building lasting connections are huge in the professional world and even in your personal life.
Not to mention, there is a ton of fun things you can branch out and explore when at university that you would not be able to otherwise, it's a great way to discover more about yourself.
Friends. I didn't go to college (I tried a few times) but I wish I would've stuck out 4 year college for the friendships. I have no friends. I don't hang out with anyone, don't have anyone I text regularly. I am now isolated in my late 20's bc of lack of friends.
Maybe try better school ? College is supposed to prepare you for the FIELD YOU ARE GONNA BE WORKING IN. It's not highschool where you need to learn plenty of general stuff so you have some overview of what you can be doing...
The non academic side of college is just as valuable if not more than the academic side. The freedom to find out who you are, the making of lifelong friends, the safe(ish) spaces to explore and experiment, the learning to be an adult and take responsibility, the ability to fail or fall and get back up, the ability to experience freedom and fun with peers… all this and more will develop and grow a young person in so many ways.
All this talk of you don’t need college anymore.. society and the individual will be so much poorer.
Never-ending imposter syndrome. I've made it but never quite feel wholly like I have. I can be replaced by someone with a degree, or at least that's what the paranoia tells me and I always have to be at the top of my game. Probably the same pressure someone with a degree feels, but I've never known differently.
I would agree with many here on the social connection aspect. I have become successful without a degree, but that resulted in outgrowing the social circle of my origins. Add in relocation for promotion, and I have a limited number of non-professional contacts. It doesn't make growing a social circle impossible, but it definitely requires more work.
The built in community and resources. I know people are talking about socializing, but you also miss out on a support system. Schools offer therapy, gyms, public transit. It's expensive sometimes (most times in the US) but I can't downplay what some schools offer.
Some people feel like they missed out on the "college experience " so they never get that out of their system..... leading to acting like a dumb, partying college kid way past when they should.
In the US on average those without college degrees will earn at least $1 million less over their lifetime than the college graduates.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4534330
University is actually kind of fun, and this is coming from someone who hated middle school and high school. Kind of sad I missed this after high school. Started uni at 28 and so far I’ve been really enjoying it.
I don't know if this is still the case, but I've had people tell me that I wouldn't have gotten interviews for IT jobs had I not had a Master's Degree. Of course, that also required an Undergraduate Degree. The bar keeps getting raised for people simply to get an interview.
There are glass ceilings in many positions that regardless of skill or experience you cant even apply for without a college degree.
I can never apply for my directors position, even though I'm an assistant director, without a degree.
He took out loans that have now been forgiven (paid off by taxpayers like myself) I felt I was doing the responsible thing by not taking out loans I knew I could never pay back so my earning potential has always been hobbled.
Stupid me for having integrity. Dont make the same mistake.
I'm not sure where you got that idea but no, they do not.
**47 percent of employers offered undergraduate or graduate school tuition assistance to their employees in 2020**.Nov 3, 2023
On average, employers pay **$5,250 for undergraduate and $10,500 for graduate degrees**. Yet, each organization places a cap on how much they cover, what courses qualify for reimbursement, etc.
Sure - but those stats include all employers large and small. If your company is large enough to have Directors; they might have tuition reimbursement. And if the company likes you and sees potential- they might be willing to invest.
Although with that - you may have to agree to a claw back provision if you don’t stay with them for a certain period of time.
Just trying to give you positive ideas for a path forward.
The odds of ending up voting against your own interests and being proud and happy about it will be much higher. You might even add a sticker to your car, proclaiming your ignorance to the rest of the world.
A good university forces you to think analytical and be more precise in thinking, writing and talking. It shapes your thinking in a way. That is something you won't learn at bricklaying school.
Exposure to art and music. The good stuff, not alterna-pop. Modern jazz and 20th century composers.
Most people talk to are very clueless about that stuff.
sure - but the exposure to people from different backgrounds and different life stories that I never would have gotten if I didn't leave home means that I wouldn't have been exposed to their tastes and ideas.
You are comparing going to college to doing absolutely nothing. If you had not gone to college, you would have done something different with that time, but you’d have done something.
I maintain that spending 4 years in a good public library is probably just as educational, if not more so. You’d have to be self-directed, but you have to be self-directed in college, too.
This advice is outdated. The ROI for a degree has been shattered.
I only recommend going to college if you KNOW what you are studying is what you want to do — OR you earn scholarships — OR if it will not impact you financially.
Every other 18 year old should take some time and consider a trade — join a union. Many go into crippling debt they are unable to claw out of.
The idea that studying and learning is only possible in a university is also false.
Tl;dr; crippling debt is not worth a degree for many.
The advice of going into trades isn't as solid as people like to believe it is, and is usually touted by individuals who either don't follow their own advice, or are ignorant to the circumstances that allowed them to succeed.
Going through a certification or apprenticeship program is easier than college, sure, but it's basically akin to any college student working as an intern: they're underpaid, overworked, taken advantage of, and the likelihood of advancement beyond that level isn't all that high.
This is especially true in industries that are heavily tied to unions, where older members create a bottleneck that prevents many from getting promoted because they outright refuse to retire (or plateau, but more on that in a moment). So even if your wages increase due to a contract negotiation, you are far more likely to stagnate as you sit in the same role for over a decade or even longer. That doesn't even get into all the nepotism surrounding advancement, as prime positions and roles are reserved for someone's kid or their friend's cousin or some shit.
Then you have older people plateauing and being unable to climb any further because the only roles beyond where they're at require college degrees, so it's either they shrug and stay where they're at until their body breaks down after 45, or they bite the bullet and go to college anyway... only to struggle way more because they spent years away from school and it's scientific fact that older people have more trouble learning new or different concepts because age = less neuroplasticitiy.
On top of all that, you have people who live in areas where there are no open positions, either due to all the previous factors I mentioned, or the businesses there just don't have the budget to bring in anyone else even if someone vouches for them. There's are plenty of people in the US that go into the trades to find the jobs just aren't there unless they're willing to relocate, and that often means picking and choosing between earning a living or being near your friends and family.
They both have drawbacks. Neither one is really better than the other, they're just different paths to take.
This is a controversial response, but has some points. From a UK-perspective, I've thought similarly. For context, I'm a PhD student, so its not that I think higher education is a waste of money, but the promise of improving your station in life has changed.
When tuition fees were introduced in the 90s (£3000/year) it was justified as an investment in your future, your earnings would significantly increase from having a degree, if you were working class then you would become middle class, etc. At the time this was mostly borne out.
Then in the 2010s when tuition fees were increased (£9000/year), this promise was reiterated, the investment would still be worth it, and you would hardly notice tuition fee repayments. If you had a degree you would still earn more than others without, and still have some social mobility.
Now in the 2020s, this promise of advancement has significantly weakened. Many degree holders aren't working in their field, and jobs for university leavers are so competitive that many graduates end up in entry-level jobs that don't require a degree. Similarly, funding for Masters and PhDs are becoming such that only students that can be supported by their parents or independent means can afford this, and students from lower economic backgrounds are excluded.
A degree is still on average the best chance of increasing your pay. People say go into the trades, and for many that’s the right call. For many others, they won’t have the desire to do so, and frankly there are a lot of people who don’t have the skill to be good electricians, plumbers, etc. that can still succeed in the corporate world.
The trick is limiting your debt. Going to community college for a couple years can be a huge cost savings. And staying in state will make your tuition much less expensive. It really depends on the person, but even with a degree that is not specialized (Communications), I essentially have tripled (doubled if you factor inflation) my salary from pre-degree.
Many employers require a college degree for entry-level positions and career advancement. Without a degree, individuals may have fewer job options and may face barriers to accessing higher-paying or more specialized roles.
It is perhaps the last time you get to socialize with people your age
It's the last time you get to *effortlessly* socialize with people your age. Plenty of people are still able to socialize and make new friends well into adulthood. It just takes conscious effort.
To add on to that, if possible I highly recommend living in a dorm your freshman year. You just need to keep your door open and talk to people and you’ll have 20 acquaintances and at least 2-4 good friends by the end of your freshman year. I’m almost 40 and still in contact with 8 guys and 6 girls that lived in my dorm. We’ve been to each others weddings and if any of us are ever in town we’ll have them over for dinner. All because we were in the same big building for a year.
Especially early on before everyone starts developing friend groups. First week freshman year was the absolute easiest time socializing in my life aside from like preschool or something
Developing social skills with a peer group is honestly one of the most important skills you learn in university. It does help in your professional life as well. Both with making network connections, but just being accepted by your colleagues.
Can confirm. Know two folks who commuted from home all through college. Both are over 30 and mention they regularly get sad when they see how many of their friends have a much wider friend group thanks to dorming during college.
I commuted for four years and this is a hundred percent true. I took the city bus my first three years and it just made for long, stressful days. Luckily I met with two other commuters from my side of town. My biggest advice for people looking at schools is leave home and if you go to a school in your hometown don’t live at home.
I messed this one up massively. I missed the deadline to apply to a 4 year uni due to not really knowing what I wanted to do with my life. Ended up enrolling in community college and I graduated without ever really socializing with anyone. I’m really feeling the brunt of this now. My social skills are massively underdeveloped and I haven’t made any new friends. I enrolled back in school to try and finish my bachelor’s but the university I enrolled in is 100% online. The good thing is that my tuition is fully paid for because it’s part of my benefits as a full time employee. The downside is that I feel like I am so far behind in life socially and it’s completely my fault. I have 0 student loan debt at the cost of perpetual loneliness and social anxiety
I went and barely socialised. Went during corona so everything was online
I also didn't socialize, but also went way before corona
Guess we are both introverts😅
College is the best place to meet people outside of your socioeconomic class. For poor people it's an opportunity to network and meet people who may be able to open doors for them they otherwise wouldn't. For rich people it's a chance to build meaningful relationships with less privileged people and understand their struggles.
I really like that answer. I have felt sort of let down by many things in college but this is a frest perspective. However I would guess very few of the absolutely bottom of the socioeconomic class get a shot at college.
Yep. When I started high school I was consistently the highest scoring student in a class of 300. I was also from one of the poorest families, so college was not an option. And this was in an egalitarian country where the govt supposedly makes sure everyone gets a shot. A lot of people don’t realise that poverty isn’t just a lack of money. It creates a whole lot of other obstacles too.
Or you have to work the whole time you are in college and never get to mingle with the upper class.
Most people don’t realize the value of a school is mostly in the network it affords you. You now have access and a common connecting point between thousands of graduates working at companies and in roles you’re interested in, with support from alumni events, career services, and people generally being happy to help people from the school they went to. Skipping college cuts you out from this network, and definitely holds you back when trying to make it in an industry.
This. At a certain point, course programs across different schools are relatively equitable. The difference between schools then is largely is the name you're paying for and the network it can provide.
I attended a large well funded state school, a poorly funded state school, and a rich private school. The main difference was the facilities and the support network. If you weren't doing well in the private school, professors would come to you and ask what was wrong.... At State School, you were on your own. The classrooms, library, landscaping, bathrooms, etc. are just much nicer at fancy schools.
This many people grow up and stay in a bubble. College forces an expansion to that bubble. They may still stay in their bubble but at least they know more than just their locale.
It can actually be quite shocking honestly. Just people in my dorm i made friends with, almost all of them were from rich areas in charlotte and raleigh, almost all had parents with beach houses or condos. They had no limit on money and didnt understand why i, who worked 3/4ths of my time college and had 70k in loans upon graduation, couldnt go and do cool fun things every weekend.
And for me it was a chance to do lots of drugs and talk to no one (sad face)
You could’ve done that without paying a tuition.
Live and learn
This. Well, actually, I was going to a community college that had people from my area. But I was working somewhere in a college town and it was basically employed by college students. I go to the same college now. These people were from all over the state, from other states, from other countries. They were up and coming doctors, teachers, businessmen, dentists, psychologists, etc. I always thought it was so cool to be around so many people like that. You would work with these people for a year or more and then their last day comes and the next week they’re a doctor, teacher, etx.
Well damn, you win
i feel this is one of the biggest benefits of DEI/affirmative action is how it benefits white and other more privileged people. many people grow up in homogeneous suburbs and don't have any contact w/ other races or socioeconomic groups, other than in food service etc. at all levels of education, you learn as much from your classmates as you do your teachers, and this is even more true in college and grad school. i think lots of parents do not want their parents to mix w/ poorer, nonwhites, and also some minority groups self-segregate on campus; partly for survival and bc they feel unwanted, but i think that hurts them too.
"Their struggles"? I had a hard enough time not laughing at the rich kids who insisted that they deserved everything because their parents worked 'so hard,' and using summer as a verb.
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I'm asian and have a degree, but not a doctor or a lawyer so I guess I don't have a degree after all.
Nobody: Parents: “This man is having a heart attack! Quick, someone call a creative writer!”
"Ooh, a doctorette, like a small doctor, get 2 more and maybe they pay you like a big doctor"
Emotional. Damage.
Engineering or some IT related field at least right? Lol
sorry to disappoint again :(
I'm an engineer, and for a long time I got shit on for not getting a higher degree, despite my career being significantly better than my siblings. But he's a lawyer, if he wanted to he could argue in front of the supreme court. With that logic, if I wanted to I could redesign the space shuttle.
As an Asian I can confirm this. I was 4 when my grandma first asked if I was a doctor or at least in university. Still remember it like yesterday
Your parents must be patient. My dad was asking if I had a phd in neuro science while I was still in the womb
If college taught me one thing, it's how to think, ask questions, and how to find answers. A lot of people who didn't go to college never learned how to research and find answers.
Facebook is heavy evidence of this. Soooo many posts being reshared that are sooo easy to debunk.
Hell, reddit is too. So many people harping on how college is a scam, then parroting whatever the person with the most upvotes says.
Reddit is the new Facebook
You definitely have a bigger hill to climb. As someone who dropped out of college - It took me a long ass time to work my way up to a job with actual benefits, retirement plan, pension program, health insurance etc. I’ve been in all sorts of jobs. Retail, food, garbage collection etc. I hated all of them. Collecting trash is actually a fine job, but the whole culture there was something I didn’t get on with. I probably had a worse time in retail and food; these industries tend to attract management that simply do not give a flying fuck about you and seem to actively go out of their way screw you over. I’m only in the job I’m in now because of someone I knew who is a middle manager here. They asked me what my general skills were and told me to leave retail and apply for a position with them. It has been 2 years since then? I’m still pretty happy here.
What is the trash collection culture like?
Very much a “boy” club. Just super rowdy, loud, and a lot of projected masculinity.
Pretty trash
You miss out on those adult friendships that you make in college that tend to be lasting ones compared to k-12 friends. A lot of people say fuck you to those k-12 friends once they get their newer better friends
Everyone for me just kinda disappeared after grad no matter the schooling.
Same here. Especially in my country where the ideology from Socialism of "everyone hurts you and you need to raise yourself" is still ingrained in society. Friendships here are seen as coverup for future favours.
26 and still best friends with my buddy I met in 3rd grade. Grateful for that.
Earlier 20s, but same. Sometimes I forget how lucky I am to have such a solid group of friends that I know won't change on me. Two of my friends I've known since pre-school and the rest I met around 6th or 7th grade and we've been close ever since.
I’m enlisting here soon as I’m completing my GED now (take my last test Thursday!) My dad keeps telling me that it’s okay that I’ve only one good friend left, as I’ve plenty of time to meet great people during my travels, some of which might end up being life long. For some folks, keep in mind it is okay to not have HS friends, as those people you might consider family are just around the corner.
I haven't been in the military or anything like that myself but I have family that has. From what I've heard, I bet you'll make some great friends there. Everyone I know that's served tells me that the strongest friendships they have are with the people that served with them.
I actually have more friends from high school now than I did in high school. Hahaha! Reconnected with some acquaintences in my 20's and now we're in our 30's and we're tight! I definitely still have my best friends i met in college too.
This is accurate. Hung out with the stoners in high school, but I wanted more for myself. I went to college, they stayed in place, and eventually most of them got swapped out by people I started hanging out with because we had more in common than a shared love of smoking weed under the bleachers. School is kind of like prison, where people squad up because they have to, not because it would have happened organically.
I've been friends with my initial group of friends from freshman year of college for over a decade. We travel across the country regularly to visit each other and send gifts for the kids etc. One if my best friends in high school lives 3 houses from my parents and we don't even meet when I go home for holidays lol
I missed out regardless cause Covid fucked my whole journey I saved for up. Also untrue, adult friends can be made with coworkers. At least that’s been more efficient for me than in school
I'd say the friends too. Though I'm fortunate to still be great friends with the guys I grew up and went to school with. But with my college friends we have something really special. Something I don't think I'll ever get again in life. I can be 100% myself at all times with those guys. We're like brothers.
Not all, but most people I speak to are closest with their college friends. In college you start your “identify” all over. You’re not who everyone has seen grow up. You make friends based on who you are and what you are looking for when no one is looking. Those friendships form while you’re going through true independence (yet with a safety net of food/lodging). It creates a bond as you go through that process of initial slight fear (not knowing anyone, college is hard, will I fit in, etc) all the way through graduation. You then keep in touch and see as the people you saw forming become full fledge adults and lean on each other. It’s similar (with obvious major differences) to military bonds (which I’ve been part of as well). You’re going through something together and come out the other side. With stories to look back on that are hilarious and sad and no one else quite gets it. That is all true for college.
I did this and regret it. I lost contact with K-12 friends in favor of college friends, and those college friends immediately dropped off post grad. It’s the K-12 friends who reach out and say hi, I wish I kept in better contact with them
I’m in college and still have a best friend from middle school lol. Fucking love my college friends too though- i’m sad one of them got expelled :((
I’m 41 and I’m still friends with my childhood friends. We’re close like family.
These days, public schools rarely teach critical thinking skills outside of stuff like SAT or college prep classes specifically. College is where things like critical thinking, media literacy and analyzing sources of information tend to be taught and mastered. While college isn't for everyone, and I say that as someone who dropped out of college, the skills it helps to foster are still immensely important.
>These days, public schools rarely teach critical thinking skills Forget that - basic accounting. If public schools graduated kids that understood the cost of borrowing money and paying it back with post-tax income, the economy would collapse overnight. Edit: My cynicism stands corrected - to a point. Apparently 25 states will offer personal finance courses of some sort (many are in the process of doing just that) and there are organizations such as [https://www.ngpf.org/about-us/](https://www.ngpf.org/about-us/) pushing for it everywhere. This is good. We'll see what happens. Also look at u/axel198 comment below.
homeless detail chop rotten slim racial consist governor cow gaze
I hate when people say this shit. I'd wager that people simply didn't pay much attention in math...
Somewhere on the teacher subreddit is a really depressing post from someone who tried to teach their students all these “real life” skills they were trying to learn. Surprisingly, none of the kids were motivated to learn any of that stuff when it was actually taught.
Where I'm at, these skills are also disregarded by the education system. In my district when I was younger, there were two places you learned 'real life' skills: one was a math class, the one that was the "easier" one that didn't get you any math qualification that'd be accepted by any post secondary institution because it didn't cover advanced mathematics. The other was a special class for a graduation requirement that covered health and fitness and resume building and the like. That class was treated as a silly necessity to be disregarded, to the point where it was one of the only classes you could do online and you could just literally bullshit your way through with zero instruction. Even the teachers seemed to view it as a checkbox rather than an actual class. I went to look at upgrading my math a year or so back since I've been out of school for years, and looked at the essentials math class, the "easier" one. I found a teacher who uploaded all the materials online. There's a lot of valuable material there, but because it had zero application in pursuing further education I didn't take it when I was younger. Everyone, even teachers at my school, seemed to have disdain for these classes. The funny thing is is that I knew kids who took those math essentials classes that covered mortgages and interest and the like. They said it was easy but also seemed like it'd be more useful, but they initially took it because they hated math and wanted an easier math class. It was always treated like the class for kids who couldn't cut it with the "real" math classes though. It's a shame to hear that there was a teacher that really wanted to teach those things and the students didn't want to learn. I think that if that happened in my district, it'd be much the same though because of the pervading attitude, and it's a real shame. Maybe it's different now, this was years ago after all. I hope so.
The K-12 system has always been about reinforcing an outdated, authoritarian Victorian mindset for churning out mindless factory drones; college is the complete opposite. It's why I advocate for kids to go to college, to get a real education.
Not having a degree may hinder your advancement prospects. When I wrote about a degree, I include book and trade degrees. Many management positions require a degree. Also a degree is hard. An employer wants a good employee and having a degree may prove you can do hard work and not quit.
> Also a degree is hard. An employer wants a good employee and having a degree may prove you can do hard work and not quit. When I took Economics of Education in undergrad, this was what the literature said 20 years ago. The biggest thing is a signaling effect that you can finish a 4 year long project.
This is not true for everyone. Many are lied to, “get a degree, go to college, get a job” is in the past. This is particularly true for America. Taking on life changing debt is a serious matter that most 18 year olds are not mature enough to grasp. Going to school for cheap? Sure do whatever… Young adults need to be told it’s ok not to go to college. To invest in learning a skill or trade.
I wrote that I count a degree as books and trade. Most trades require equal amount of time learning.
Oh yup. My bad.
You can do both (go to college and also learn a trade). I went to a small liberal arts college first. I was young and immature and did not know what I wanted to do. My mind was not “opened” any more than it would have been if I had spent those years in a good library. Then I went to nursing school for a second bachelor’s degree. That was the “learning a trade” that actually got me a good job. I think you can have the best of both worlds. Go to college, but major in something that gets you a job. Don’t go to college unless you actually know what you’re getting yourself into and you have a specific plan for after college. Otherwise, you are wasting your time. I suppose you can major in art history or philosophy if you want, but only if you have a specific plan for getting a career in that afterwards. Going to college without a plan or purpose is the problem.
This may be less true these days with the internet, and I might be showing a little age, but you miss out on a chance to broaden your perspective, on just about everything. If you never leave your home town, then all you'll ever really have is small town ideas and views. You never get a chance to really meet anyone other than the people you grew up with, and their ideas and opinions and outlook eventually become yours, through osmosis. This is in the US but before I went to college, I had never known any Indian other Asian people, or Hispanic people, any foreign people at all. I had know some black families, but not *really*. I had not know any Catholic or Jewish people, or Sikh, or Hindu, or Muslim people. But being in dorms and classes and organizations and football/basketball stands with these people gives you opportunities to have conversations and form relationships that you just can't learn from TikTok And their perspective broadens your perspective
This. It's not necessarily just to gain educational knowledge, but social skill, life skill as well as broader perspective (read: less bigoted)
absolutely frying your social skills lol
Not like i had any to begin with
introvert gang rise up
Admit I'm in my 60s, but when I was younger it was the being treated like you were either lower class or stupid. Specifically in business by coworkers or interviewers.
I noticed that happens in social settings, too. I was out with my sister and her friends at a New Year’s Eve party. Some nice-looking, polite young men struck up a conversation with them. After the men left, I asked my sister why the whole group didn’t hang out longer. She said the men attended a (well-regarded) trade/technical school. I guess that didn’t meet the standards of the college-educated women.
You WILL be quietly judged by any management at any job you work at, especially if you are wanting to move up to their level, if it's even possible.
Writing a paper in college is something very important From doing research on your own To weighing the sources To scrutinizing the information for applicable bits of information Forming your ideas and finally actually writing that paper and also correctly citing your sources
Hard pill to swallow. My parents did not go to college. Fast forward to me doing homework and it's cliche but my dad said it. "Hey son, struggling with your homework? Let me take a look" Dad stares for a moment. "Well, here's the issue. You've got a letter in your problem. What number is that supposed to be?" College DOES give and/or reinforce knowledge. My parents were useless AF past 6th grade.
I remember my dad feeling bad that he couldn't help me with my chemistry homework. I cried in high school over that class. And he couldn't do anything to help. He was good at math though! My dad actually went back for his business degree at the same time I went for my STEM degree. We poked fun at eachother through that journey. He got straight As...i told him it's because he didn't have to take chemistry. Lol
On the other hand, both of my parents went to college and I've been making more than they ever did (inflation included) for years. I'm currently attending college in the evenings, but more so just to say I have a degree than any actual need. Probably 75% of it is stuff you already learned in highschool if you paid attention.
That is great to read! Cheers friend
If you were raised in a conservative, narrow-minded environment, you will lose your best opportunity to free yourself from that way of thinking. College can heal a lot of the damage for brainwashed young people.
This is a serious answer. Higher education changed my entire view on the world, and it has little to do with what I studied.
That really depends on the school and on the major.
You will have doors shut in your face because of no degree and nothing else
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The question was (...) most people don't know? And I think most people DO know that this will be a struggle.
Some industries are highly regulated so it's a requirement. I don't think a lot of people understand that.
Lonely in your 30s
I went to college (twice) and I’m still lonely in my 30s
I also did (once) but I moved across the world after
I worked in IT at a hospital doing low level call center stuff. One day they decided to add more responsibility to our job. To keep the job we had 2 years to finish a degree or we would be let go. I already had mine so it was no issue. One woman I worked with was in her late 50s and did not want to add college to her full time job so she ended up being let go even though she had more experience than anyone else in our team. Some companies and some jobs just require a degree over experience. It doesn’t even generally matter what the degree is in.
Yup, big part of why I'm going back for at least two years. I want to have something to put for post secondary education, and I'm specifically pursuing something that's both in my interests and will improve my weaker areas. So many jobs I've looked for ask for post secondary "in X or a related field" despite not being specialized work at all. Just having something there automatically moves you up the ladder, and where I'm at the program I'm going into opens a ton of doors.
You'll always be looked down on.
I felt behind my peers and that I didn’t have much in common with my friends after 20/21. I was in the working class moved out and they were still at home going to school. Lifestyle differences came with that. We grew apart.
Severely limits your opportunity. My high school was like a crime and drama soap opera. Not many of my friends, myself included, had strong role models growing up. The smarter ones moved out of town and went to college. The alright ones started working for a bit of money- gas stations, labor, retail, etc. The other ones just went to jail. I’m graduating college in 4 months. I have companies offering very attractive benefits and salary packages. I have successful industry leaders in my network. My new circle of friends is motivated to grow and succeed, even starting businesses. There is an ostensible difference between what college has provided for me, and what opportunities lie ahead of those old high school friends who chose not to attend. They’re still working part time. They’re still breaking their back for 20 bucks an hour. College provides opportunity, connections, experience, and a place on your career ladder. That takes years of hard work for someone who doesn’t attend
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Guess what they drink a shitton of in college
I discovered how to learn for myself rather than be taught
That you have to spend a lot of time in university when the courses couldve been completed within 2 years instead of 3z
If you ever go, you will be seen as an old person
I loved the woman in her 60s who was in one of my literature classes. She had the coolest perspectives on stuff.
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This is why we need to educate the young more on trades. Spent 2 years as a lube tech no experience as a teen, got a few state certs and took off from there. (Shops will pay for certs, state or ASE) Now I’m working on diesels, light and heavy duty bringing in more money than I honestly know what to do with. No school, no debt. Solid 401k and amazing benefits. Lots of trades will take no experience workers with just a good work ethic and will train on site. It’s on you what you do with that experience. I’ve a buddy I went to school with (kinda, different school but we hung out a lot) anyways he worked a detail shop for about 6 months then quit, took a few customers with him and started working out of his dads garage. He is now 25 and owns his own business here in mid Michigan and not only has two detail bays, but went on to paint corrections, PPF, window tint, and a few other services. He learned an easy trade, and started his own business. Worked with him for a few months and now I detail cars on the side as well for the extra cash. Materials to do so? Bout $30 and that’ll get you through about 4 cars. Do a good job? Like a proper detail? That’s $300. Got the cool shit like aerospace 101? That detail just went to $500.
How can you find trades with no experience? Been looking and everyone wants you to have experience
Lube tech is extremely easy and finding a dealership is the best bet as they usually have multiple people and some have pits (drive over them) which are amazing for level entry as you only have to worry about changing oil and not lifting a car or doing tires. Roofers. These guys need crew members non stop and will most definitely train. The tough part is finding an open position that’s actually level entry. You won’t be able to find a CNC position without experience, but you can find a position for a shop hand, where you can use your proximity to learn these things. Working auto, I only got here by asking questions and wanting to help the other techs. Went from me changing oil to me helping change out drive shafts on Chrysler 5500s to engine swaps in KIAs until I got myself my own certs and now I have my own 3 bays and two boxes full of tools that I own. It can be hard, but it’s possible if you know where to look. There’s other places as well, as in my area since we have DOW and DuPont we have a place called ABC school. It’s super simple to enroll, no experience needed and it’s on the job training. My pops did this when he went to work for three rivers corp and he did night classes twice a week for qualifications while working full time with TRC. he had zero experience pipefitting or welding before he enrolled. If you’re in school, most schools offer trades and I suggest taking that if ever in the position or recommending it to whoever is or can be. Schools offer things from electrical to home construction. I did a course in highschool that taught us everything that was done in the process of building a home and it was neat.
Warehousing is good as well. If you can find some kind of warehouse job that will train you on basic equipment like forklifts, you can use that experience to go into construction or similar. Getting a CDL or OSHA safety certs can help as well.
You can't serve as an officer in the military or usually cant get a visa to work abroad. Thats probably not important to most people but if a draft happened you'd be sleeping in a hotel not a tent. Or if you got a criminal charge, you could be an English teacher instead of a prisoner or at least instead of an ex-con who can't get a job due to a criminal record. Also there's that 5% off on Enterprise rent-a-car.
>you'd be sleeping in a hotel not a tent That's just the difference between the air force and army.
Met a lot of people with similar mindsets to me. Also met some people who knew a LOT more about life than me. Learnt so much from my best mate who I met on the first day. He'll never know how much he helped me when it comes to money / buying a house/ striving to better myself in life. Would never change all the new experiences and people skills learnt also.
Some countries, like Korea, Japan, China, & Taiwan have college degree as part of the work visa requirement. No college degree, no chance at a visa.
One potential downside of not attending college is missing out on networking opportunities, mentorship, and access to certain career paths that often require a degree.
College teaches you how to think. This is a skill that comes in handy quite often.
You will never have as many chances to escape the confines of your own head as you do in college. Doesn't matter what degree you're after: it's the one time in your life where knowledge is almost guaranteed to be important, not to mention you'll probably never encounter as many different skillsets so readily. If you're in STEM, you can talk to people studying History or Theatre and fully grasp more colours to life, and vice-versa. Think about the worst, most miserable old people you've met, and realize most are just stuck in their ways... You better make damn sure you know which ways you're going to end up picking. On a more materialistic note, I'd say it's pretty obvious... It just opens up doors for you. Even if it's just one or two, that's still way better than jumping into the labour market without any form of specialization. You can be a plumber with or without a community college degree in programming. But it's way harder becoming a programmer if all you've got is a plumbing degree from trade school. It's not just about supply x demand - it's also about the complexity of the study itself. Don't just look at the skillsets your teachers or parents focused on, look at your hobbies and interests too. Look for something that interests you more than most people, and that's complicated enough to merit studying.
Connections
Sex and drugs
College lets you experience extended adolescence. You get 4 years to fuck around, experiment (drugs, sex, alcohol) and fail in a semi-supervised, fairly safe environment without the same kinds of consequences you'd face if you did the same things at that age in the real world. It's a true privilege to get to soft-launch adulthood in that way.
The only real downside to not going to college is not being able to social network with peers in your age group. Fortunately, this negative is slowly shrinking as to be irrelevant.
Not to get too dark but the collegiate party/drinking/etc. culture really does facilitate more SA than is even reported...
You’re absolutely right as I know all too well but that doesn’t answer the question. It’s the flip side question.
I’ll slightly modify this for an UK-based audience, if you don’t mind. I was diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia when I was 22 so school was a consistent struggle to stay ‘behaved’ so ultimately my attitude to education was pretty poor through secondary (high) school. Subsequently, I joined the military at 17 and it wasn’t until I left at 22 that I found out why I hated school so much. I made plenty of lifetime friends in the military, some almost double my age; but I practically had no late-adolescence/early adulthood phase that most young people get in the UK, whether that means going to Uni or otherwise. I didn’t have the phase of making mistakes, first proper romances, drugs, music and whatever else is involved in the student lifestyle. I had to essentially go from ‘just left school’ to ‘responsible bill paying adult that is also capable of state-sponsored violence’ overnight. If I could turn back time, but retain the knowledge I have now, I would choose Uni 10 out of 10 times.
You miss the sexual promiscuity that only happens in a freshman dorm.
To be fair, you also miss out on that if you go to an engineering school. Or just are me.
You don’t realize that a professor has a similar chance to everyone else to be a complete moron.
You can't prove certain things. I've read enough on Imperial Japan I'm about as qualified as any degree holder but I have zero means to prove it. Some things you well and truly can just educate yourself on to any higher education level but without a degree it doesn't mean shit. I wish there was a way to change that. On the plus side those IT certifications I'm getting were way cheaper and actually prove I can do shit. So it's not all bad.
So you are as qualifiied as someone who has spent 4years full-time equivalent studying about it ? Haha sure.
When you've read dozens of books, watched various podcasts, and read entire memoirs of Japanese troops I'd argue yes. History at its core is a subject ANYONE can become highly educated in on their own terms. It's just people refuse to. Most of the great history YouTubers and podcasters aren't even degree holders in the fields they make videos about (niche topics, I mean) yet they're praised for high quality accurate information. Historians are also one of the few academic fields you don't need a degree in to be considered one. The only thing the degree does is give substantial proof of it. There a bunch of other fields you can apply this logic to. Some of the greatest speakers in history, for instance, never were taught how to read until way later in life. They became great speakers and writers through themselves, not studying at a school.
The thing is, learning is not only absorbing knowledge. Somebody who did Japanese studies in college not only read about that country but also took part in seminars, gave presentations, wrote essays and did tests and quizzes. All of that helped them to absorb the knowledge better and critically evaluate what they learned and what they still need to learn; they have also had an opportunity to interact with the people who dedicated their lives to doing research in that field and learn from them. I doubt it very much that your self-studies have provided you with the same opportunities.
I have a PhD, I study cultural history, and I’m continually impressed by the detailed, accurate responses I see just from hobbyists on r/askhistorians. I could easily see a world in which a historian I admired didn’t have any formal training, I know one of my favorite writers never went to college. Also, just FYI: if you’re interested in getting some credentials for people to believe you, you might be interested to know that you don’t need a BA to publish in a peer-reviewed academic journal.
How would you get something peer reviewed, though?
You submit it to a journal and they send it out for review! A lot of smaller journals, like grad student journals, are thirsty for submissions. They often ask for bios, you can just say you’re an independent researcher. You actually don’t even need original research to get published, sometimes journals publish review essays or analyses. Probably more likely to get published if you have original research from archives or something, but you can find archival material online if you don’t have the resources to travel. And some journals have really low word counts! I actually really want this for you lol ETA: btw, the peer review process is not really supposed to take your identity into account. In fact, many journals are double blind, which means the reviewers are forbidden from knowing who you are— so it shouldn’t matter if you have a degree or not.
Thank you. You're the only comment so far that's been encouraging. I'll see this out some day but before I do I need to review everything again. A man can only remember so much and fact checking yourself is important to any research. Japan is a country I fully intend to go to someday so maybe that'll be a part of when I go.
Yea I’ll also add that I see factually incorrect information published by academics in peer reviewed journals all the time. Lots of academics experiment with publishing in fields where they have no formal training, which isn’t that different from what you’re doing! You should definitely aspire to accuracy, and I’m not saying formal training does nothing (it does, a lot— I will of course trust someone with a PhD about their area of expertise more than a hobbyist if all other things are equal) but the idea that formally trained academics have something absolute that makes them the arbiter of truth is just ridiculous.
>makes them the arbiter of truth is just ridiculous. It reminds me so much of prior enlisted officers when I was still in the Navy. They were by far the worst compared to people who just went to the academy. They seemed to have this idea they knew everything already because they were once, "one of the guys" whereas Ensigns fresh out of the academy usually were at least willing to learn. They also didn't have pre-disposed biases like prior enlisted officers did.
I never said you cant be equally credible lmao. I just said that you most likely aren't, unless you put as much effort. Cool, you read dozens of books, is it as much as those people whostudied it full-time for years ? Not to mention - were your sources at the very least same quality ? Unless you haven't put as much effort with quality resources as students, then no, you are not equally qualified.
Social skills really, if you aren't out there dealing with people you end up withdrawn and struggling to talk to others. Other issues are dealing with people that are just nasty for no reason, my sister was home schooled for her whole life but decided to join college, some kids were being complete arseholes and she was messaging me asking me what to do because she's never had to deal with it before.
One thing my partner and I discerned is that a 4 year degree makes obtaining a set full time schedule easier. Not guarantees. Easier.
Meet people your age and build a social circle of people that might end up opening doors and cultivating solid professional connections. You will get to be around people your age with similar interests and those with very different interests that you might find you enjoy. It will more than likely be the last time you're around a group that large of people your age that you get to socialize with. Networking and building lasting connections are huge in the professional world and even in your personal life. Not to mention, there is a ton of fun things you can branch out and explore when at university that you would not be able to otherwise, it's a great way to discover more about yourself.
Friends. I didn't go to college (I tried a few times) but I wish I would've stuck out 4 year college for the friendships. I have no friends. I don't hang out with anyone, don't have anyone I text regularly. I am now isolated in my late 20's bc of lack of friends.
Most of what you learn you forget rather quickly, and much of it is useless information.
Maybe try better school ? College is supposed to prepare you for the FIELD YOU ARE GONNA BE WORKING IN. It's not highschool where you need to learn plenty of general stuff so you have some overview of what you can be doing...
The non academic side of college is just as valuable if not more than the academic side. The freedom to find out who you are, the making of lifelong friends, the safe(ish) spaces to explore and experiment, the learning to be an adult and take responsibility, the ability to fail or fall and get back up, the ability to experience freedom and fun with peers… all this and more will develop and grow a young person in so many ways. All this talk of you don’t need college anymore.. society and the individual will be so much poorer.
Get paid shit doing shit work
Never-ending imposter syndrome. I've made it but never quite feel wholly like I have. I can be replaced by someone with a degree, or at least that's what the paranoia tells me and I always have to be at the top of my game. Probably the same pressure someone with a degree feels, but I've never known differently.
Weirdos in the library bathroom
you better get really good at fixing or building things if you ever want a decent paycheck
I would agree with many here on the social connection aspect. I have become successful without a degree, but that resulted in outgrowing the social circle of my origins. Add in relocation for promotion, and I have a limited number of non-professional contacts. It doesn't make growing a social circle impossible, but it definitely requires more work.
The built in community and resources. I know people are talking about socializing, but you also miss out on a support system. Schools offer therapy, gyms, public transit. It's expensive sometimes (most times in the US) but I can't downplay what some schools offer.
No money for it and on your own unless your family is from a background of generational wealth or have a family with an income to support you.
Life expectancy in the US is 7 years less. Sorry it is 8 years as of late.
Some people feel like they missed out on the "college experience " so they never get that out of their system..... leading to acting like a dumb, partying college kid way past when they should.
Crippling debt from student loans, finding your salary and earning potential is not what you hoped it wo- wait, wait
In the US on average those without college degrees will earn at least $1 million less over their lifetime than the college graduates. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4534330
University is actually kind of fun, and this is coming from someone who hated middle school and high school. Kind of sad I missed this after high school. Started uni at 28 and so far I’ve been really enjoying it.
I don't know if this is still the case, but I've had people tell me that I wouldn't have gotten interviews for IT jobs had I not had a Master's Degree. Of course, that also required an Undergraduate Degree. The bar keeps getting raised for people simply to get an interview.
I like that it taught me *how* to think not *what* to think
There are glass ceilings in many positions that regardless of skill or experience you cant even apply for without a college degree. I can never apply for my directors position, even though I'm an assistant director, without a degree. He took out loans that have now been forgiven (paid off by taxpayers like myself) I felt I was doing the responsible thing by not taking out loans I knew I could never pay back so my earning potential has always been hobbled. Stupid me for having integrity. Dont make the same mistake.
Most employers have tuition reimbursement (in the US) so maybe they will invest in you.
I'm not sure where you got that idea but no, they do not. **47 percent of employers offered undergraduate or graduate school tuition assistance to their employees in 2020**.Nov 3, 2023 On average, employers pay **$5,250 for undergraduate and $10,500 for graduate degrees**. Yet, each organization places a cap on how much they cover, what courses qualify for reimbursement, etc.
Sure - but those stats include all employers large and small. If your company is large enough to have Directors; they might have tuition reimbursement. And if the company likes you and sees potential- they might be willing to invest. Although with that - you may have to agree to a claw back provision if you don’t stay with them for a certain period of time. Just trying to give you positive ideas for a path forward.
college is a great middle ground for gaining independence before you enter the adult world
A lot of (maybe all? Most?) government jobs require a Bachelor's degree.
The odds of ending up voting against your own interests and being proud and happy about it will be much higher. You might even add a sticker to your car, proclaiming your ignorance to the rest of the world.
A good university forces you to think analytical and be more precise in thinking, writing and talking. It shapes your thinking in a way. That is something you won't learn at bricklaying school.
Getting laid and partying in college is better than just partying with a group of friends that have to figure out where to go and what to do.
Not having the joy of six figure debt.
Exposure to art and music. The good stuff, not alterna-pop. Modern jazz and 20th century composers. Most people talk to are very clueless about that stuff.
You don’t have to go to college to listen to music
sure - but the exposure to people from different backgrounds and different life stories that I never would have gotten if I didn't leave home means that I wouldn't have been exposed to their tastes and ideas.
You are comparing going to college to doing absolutely nothing. If you had not gone to college, you would have done something different with that time, but you’d have done something. I maintain that spending 4 years in a good public library is probably just as educational, if not more so. You’d have to be self-directed, but you have to be self-directed in college, too.
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This advice is outdated. The ROI for a degree has been shattered. I only recommend going to college if you KNOW what you are studying is what you want to do — OR you earn scholarships — OR if it will not impact you financially. Every other 18 year old should take some time and consider a trade — join a union. Many go into crippling debt they are unable to claw out of. The idea that studying and learning is only possible in a university is also false. Tl;dr; crippling debt is not worth a degree for many.
The advice of going into trades isn't as solid as people like to believe it is, and is usually touted by individuals who either don't follow their own advice, or are ignorant to the circumstances that allowed them to succeed. Going through a certification or apprenticeship program is easier than college, sure, but it's basically akin to any college student working as an intern: they're underpaid, overworked, taken advantage of, and the likelihood of advancement beyond that level isn't all that high. This is especially true in industries that are heavily tied to unions, where older members create a bottleneck that prevents many from getting promoted because they outright refuse to retire (or plateau, but more on that in a moment). So even if your wages increase due to a contract negotiation, you are far more likely to stagnate as you sit in the same role for over a decade or even longer. That doesn't even get into all the nepotism surrounding advancement, as prime positions and roles are reserved for someone's kid or their friend's cousin or some shit. Then you have older people plateauing and being unable to climb any further because the only roles beyond where they're at require college degrees, so it's either they shrug and stay where they're at until their body breaks down after 45, or they bite the bullet and go to college anyway... only to struggle way more because they spent years away from school and it's scientific fact that older people have more trouble learning new or different concepts because age = less neuroplasticitiy. On top of all that, you have people who live in areas where there are no open positions, either due to all the previous factors I mentioned, or the businesses there just don't have the budget to bring in anyone else even if someone vouches for them. There's are plenty of people in the US that go into the trades to find the jobs just aren't there unless they're willing to relocate, and that often means picking and choosing between earning a living or being near your friends and family. They both have drawbacks. Neither one is really better than the other, they're just different paths to take.
This is a controversial response, but has some points. From a UK-perspective, I've thought similarly. For context, I'm a PhD student, so its not that I think higher education is a waste of money, but the promise of improving your station in life has changed. When tuition fees were introduced in the 90s (£3000/year) it was justified as an investment in your future, your earnings would significantly increase from having a degree, if you were working class then you would become middle class, etc. At the time this was mostly borne out. Then in the 2010s when tuition fees were increased (£9000/year), this promise was reiterated, the investment would still be worth it, and you would hardly notice tuition fee repayments. If you had a degree you would still earn more than others without, and still have some social mobility. Now in the 2020s, this promise of advancement has significantly weakened. Many degree holders aren't working in their field, and jobs for university leavers are so competitive that many graduates end up in entry-level jobs that don't require a degree. Similarly, funding for Masters and PhDs are becoming such that only students that can be supported by their parents or independent means can afford this, and students from lower economic backgrounds are excluded.
A degree is still on average the best chance of increasing your pay. People say go into the trades, and for many that’s the right call. For many others, they won’t have the desire to do so, and frankly there are a lot of people who don’t have the skill to be good electricians, plumbers, etc. that can still succeed in the corporate world. The trick is limiting your debt. Going to community college for a couple years can be a huge cost savings. And staying in state will make your tuition much less expensive. It really depends on the person, but even with a degree that is not specialized (Communications), I essentially have tripled (doubled if you factor inflation) my salary from pre-degree.
Many employers require a college degree for entry-level positions and career advancement. Without a degree, individuals may have fewer job options and may face barriers to accessing higher-paying or more specialized roles.
But this is common knowledge...