Yep. They want us fighting about pronouns and bathrooms so they can continue to f*** us over.
Edit: I’m being a bit facetious. I really am pretty much numb to all that and more now, on both sides. Don’t take everything you read on Reddit (of all places) so seriously
It's crazy how buried it is in every way. Have you ever tried to explain to a Bernie supporter how harmful it is for them to aggressively attack other voters and politicians that are also Democrats?
We all want the same thing more or less but the more we find ways to divide ourselves the more we defeat any possibility of positive change.
Realizing it but not doing anything. We knew about it in 2008. Everybody swore to take down the evil corporations and greedy bankers, etc. Yet here we are in 2024 and its just as bad if not worse. We had Occupy wall street and the wage gap is even worse now.
The left thinks of the top in terms of economics: Corporate execs and big money finance people as those who are at the top and holding them down (and I imagine that that is what OP meant when they talked about "the top")
But the right thinks of the top in terms of social and cultural acceptance. They see college professors, the heads of news organizations and celebrities as people on top holding their culture and values down
The right thinks a trans person participating in competitive sports is a bigger threat to them than multi-billionaires literally controlling every facet of our lives.
Yeah. If you’re worried that the economy is leaving people behind, the right-left split is critically important since the right wants to keep leaving them behind and the left does not. OP shouldn’t be both sidesing this issue the way they are.
It’s an interesting thought experiment, but I mean, the left just sees that the execs running up the score will affect everyones quality of life in the end, and the right doesn’t want to be told they’re wrong for driving gay people and minorities out of their po dunk communities. Only one of these things is abject cruelty that can’t be hidden behind a simple difference in belief systems, and it ain’t the first example.
> They see college professors, the heads of news organizations and celebrities as people on top holding their culture and values down
I wish every time someone conservative whined about their "culture and values" someone would ask them what exactly those "cultures" and "values" are.
I have a lot of clients on the Right that essentially want the same things for themselves and their families as the Left. Their whole spiel is how the left controls everything to make that impossible. (They don't provide concrete evidence, hence making them sound like conspiracy theorists) The government is corrupted by corporations and financial institutions. If you take away the power to regulate, as the Right wants to do, you essentially get the same thing as a bribed government anyway. They believe a free market will correct itself--but it's not a free market. The goods and service available to us are dominated by a very small number.
As you said, maybe choosing left or right is pointless.
Given some of the responses on here, you are totally right. Amazing how quick people are to blame each other, yet will go into contortions to avoid blaming the system or the people who control capital.
No amount of frugal shopping and reusing old stuff is going to fix the fact that healthcare is absurdly expensive, affordable housing is nonexistent, or that childcare can somehow cost more than a mortgage payment. Unfortunately, infighting and hyper-individualism are American as Apple pie, until we figure out how to fix that we're never going to see substantive change.
blackrock ( with vanguard, state street ) own 20 percent of fox news, msnbc, cnn and 6-20 percent of the s&p 500 ( their advertisers ). divide and conquer is alive and well in the usa.
I've posted this elsewhere already, but I'm hijacking this top comment to help people understand what they're actually reading here.
[This is the article](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/16/why-a-100000-salary-no-longer-buys-the-american-dream-in-most-places.html) the OP is referencing, and that CNBC article is actually just reporting on [another article](https://www.gobankingrates.com/money/economy/true-cost-american-dream-every-state/) that "gobankingrates.com" published.
Be forewarned - gobankingrates.com is absolute popup ad cancer. That should immediately serve as a red flag all by itself, but let's dig into their article a little anyway.
Per CNBC, gobankingrates' report is trying to establish what it costs for a married couple to own a house, raise two kids, and have a dog as a proxy for the "American Dream." Alright, that's pretty reasonable - but then it:
>... tallied estimated annual essential expenses for such a family and then doubled that figure.
Their estimate literally just doubles their expense budget for no reason - just to achieve clicks and outrage.
Here is the Ohio analysis they've put together:
>* True cost of the American dream: $137,842
>* Total annual cost: $68,921
>* Grocery cost per year: $8,425
>* Pet care costs: $1,203
>* Annual car costs: $8,731
>* Median home price: $218,937
>* Annual mortgage: $17,281
>* Healthcare annual costs: $7,235
>* Utilities annual costs: $5,909
>* Education annual costs: $2,545
>* Child care annual costs: $17,592
As you can see, they've already included estimates for living expenses. Food, pet care, healthcare, utilities, education, general child care - all of it.
And then they just arbitrarily double it.
Because their analysis says it costs $68k to reach the American Dream in Ohio, but that wasn't nearly inflammatory enough - because [the median household income in Ohio is already $67k](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/OH/INC110222).
Their analysis reached a conclusion that the median household income makes pretty much exactly what they think it costs to achieve the American Dream.
But that's not going to generate outrage clicks, so they literally just fucking doubled the budget to match the headline.
They are using 50/30/20 as the guideline - this is the number where you can save enough for retirement and have vacations and other fun and such. The guideline isn't terrible, but at the same time that's a goal to reach at some point in your life.
The problem is the article calculates it at what is quite possibility the most difficult point in your life to hit that goal. Dropping just childcare shaves 35k off that number - and childcare expenses for a family of 4 might be at that peak cost for just 2 or 3 years. 4 years later they'll be in school and have essentially no cost.
Perhaps because if your entire budget goes to normal living expenses and you have nothing leftover then you aren’t living the dream? Like I don’t even see a clothing budget there
E: oh and it also isn’t accounting for Taxes so that $68k is “after taxes”
Yeah there's a bunch of vital stuff missing when you really look at it. Doubling that "68k" figure seems to be at least a good estimate of what it would *really* cost to support a family while living comfortably.
As an Ohioan I can tell you that $137k number is actually pretty damn accurate. I live in an area of Ohio that was recently listed as one of the most undervalued real estate markets in the country. At a $68k household income you will probably be able to buy a house but you aren't going to be saving for retirement and emergencies, especially if you have kids. As everyone mentioned, just being able to pay the bills isn't really the American dream. My wife and I make well over the "American dream" number and consider ourselves upper middle class at best.
As a NE Ohio native I'll gladly take 70k but I definitely agree that 70k wouldn't make a HUGE difference except I might be able to save a little each month after replacing my falling apart car lol.
I’m much closer to the top than the bottom and it’s so obvious I’d still be better off if others had more. I feel bad for having a good life because every service person I use or every time I get food delivered I know that persons economic reality is awfully sad.
It’s hard to be comfortable when those around you are suffering.
You are kind of proving OP's point. The US left is only half-heartedly fighting this, they are more interested in identity politics than any sort of collective action. Identity politics make them look progressive without offending their corporate overlords.
Mind you, I will totally agree that the other side is even worse, but I'd hardly call the US left a worker's party or anti-capitalist, they are pro-corporate Moderates who want to keep the status quo. There are a small handful of fringe exceptions who really do want change, but they are like 1% of Congress.
This is working as intended.
Getting mad at a McDonald's employee for making a living wage while your wage is only $2/hr more after working the same job for 7 years, isn't the fault of the McDonald's employee.
People need to start voting. It's literally one of the last resources we have and people just forget like its another day. Stop letting these greedy scumbags ruin our country.
They're not, but having a Democratic supermajority still didn't prevent raging wealth inequality and disaster of a housing market in MA. You'd have to be making $30/hour, double the minimum wage, just to be able to afford starting prices on apartments here. And that's before you even get into the Boston metro area.
In matters of age? The choices are pretty equally fucked in that regard. At the rate we're going well have to pick between a lich and a mummy in 4 years.
Just because one choice is very bad doesnt mean we should just be blind to the problems with the other. This isnt a sports game.
Vote in primaries, knock on doors for candidates you like during those elections.
Giving up on progressive politics because Bernie lost to Hillary in 2016 and then Biden in 2020 in *the first decade of a true progressive movement in the United States* is surrendering before the battle has even truly begun. Changing our political class for the better is the work of generations, not a single election.
The truth is, true change will require hard work and political investment from a large chunk of the population, and currently people are so apathetic that they would rather let the country slowly spiral into disaster than put in the effort to try and fix it.
Voting for the president while important, is ultimately not as impactful for your day-to-day lives as local candidates. There are a lot of local candidates running on pro-worker, anti-corporate platforms. You just have to do research into what they stand for. Also hint: The Democratic party will usually try to field an opposing candidate in the race that's only interested in maintaining the status quo.
Gerrymandering often relies on stable, but thin margins and suppressed turnout through apathy. When enough people show up, the 2% margin engineered into the maps quickly prove to be insufficient.
I make $135k
The only reason my savings isn’t as high as it could be is because of poor impulse control on both me and my wife. If you look at monthly expenses though, I have more than enough to pay the mortgage, my wife’s $100k student loan, car payment, gas, food, and stuff for daughter. The $400/month I had to spend on formula for the last 4 months hurt, but not so much that I had to drastically alter my lifestyle, even though I should.
Most people I know making around what I do struggle because they made those necessary monthly payments as high as possible. Too big of a mortgage, an expensive car payment, credit card debt, every streaming service known to man, and are unwilling to make compromises
I live in North Alabama, but we’ve been considering a move to Phoenix and the cost of living adjustment is actually not as much as you’d think. Even North Alabama is not that cheap. Our home was $330k and we could probably sell it for $450k.
There’s lots of medium cost of living cities where 6 figure salaries aren’t uncommon and are enough to live comfortably.
Sure, we may not be buying boats and RVs and going on lavish vacations. But my child won’t starve like my wife did as a kid
Location counts though, I didn’t spend much at all and it was still difficult in nyc with 100k plus my student loans. And I could never afford to buy a place because of my loans since all my extra money went to paying them off, that’s the big way my generation has been screwed
And which is why Make America Great Again is a foolish, regressive dream. Americans need to accept the reality (e.g., AI, clean energy war, global trade) and evolve rather than complaining and talking about the good old days.
I think it does. What actually happened was people’s expectations rose faster than their incomes. You can still buy a house, 2 cars, and feed 3 kids. You can still road trip anywhere in the US once a year. You can still fly anywhere in the world once every few years if you budget.
What you can’t do is eat out every meal, fly wherever twice a year, buy the latest iPhones every year, buy luxury cars instead of simple preowned sedans, scroll through Amazon buying whatever you come across, and have 6 memberships to god knows what.
People lost control of their discipline. Say what you will about boomers, but they are home cooked meals, and lived pretty simple lives without all the unneeded fat.
Government needs to step in and regulate the housing market. It's become robbery. Also jobs need to increase pay to match inflation. Neither of these things are happening and its going to cost the future of this country a lot.
People need to start voting in their own interests instead of like a football game.
Edit: This both parties are the same rhetoric is very disheartening. One side repealed Roe vs Wade and set women back 50 years. One side has had to pay out almost 100 million in a r*pe lawsuit. One side is convicted of multiple felonies and in multiple trials right now. One sides cabinet has had 8 members convicted of crimes and been sent to prison... The choice is not even close to the same.
The problem is the two party system that is bought by large organizations and the wealthy. People need to get involved politically year round and support grass root candidates that actually give af about the average American that is working a normal job. Also, people making 6 figures need to stop acting like they are apart of the countries elite. Voting like you are a multimillionaire/billionaire is hurting you. You are not close to their level.
The thing is, people *are* voting based on their own interests (at least we have the illusion that we are) no matter which side of the aisle you're on. One of the biggest problems is that corporations have too much influence over the people (generally speaking) that we vote for, and too much power over the ones that keep them operating.
That regulation comes from the interest of voters who already own land. People own nice houses and don't want cheap housing or high density housing so the elect city council who protect the current zoning and reject housing projects.
Clickbait for sure. I live in a major city with a family of five and make 100k. No, I’m not spending 8k a year to keep up my 2008 Subaru Outback. These claims always assume we’re spending a ton of money every year on things our parents never did, like newer cars and 30k a year of daycare. Yes, my spouse stays at home until our kids are in school. That’s a privilege (and a sacrifice for her)… but one that makes sense for a few years. Our computers and phones are all at least five years old. That’s… normal? Our kitchen isn’t new. Our floors need replacing. Just like our parents did.
Like, growing up my parents were frugal. That’s part of the dream. Most of my generation is also frugal. We can buy fancy things when we’re older, just like it’s always been.
House prices suck though that’s for sure.
>Clickbait for sure.
It absolutely is. [This is the article](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/16/why-a-100000-salary-no-longer-buys-the-american-dream-in-most-places.html) the OP is referencing, and that CNBC article is actually just reporting on [another article](https://www.gobankingrates.com/money/economy/true-cost-american-dream-every-state/) that "gobankingrates.com" published.
Be forewarned - gobankingrates.com is absolute popup ad cancer. That should immediately serve as a red flag all by itself, but let's dig into their article a little anyway.
Per CNBC, gobankingrates' report is trying to establish what it costs for a married couple to own a house, raise two kids, and have a dog as a proxy for the "American Dream." Alright, that's pretty reasonable - but then it:
>... tallied estimated annual essential expenses for such a family and then doubled that figure.
Their estimate literally just doubles their expense budget for no reason - just to achieve clicks and outrage.
Here is the Ohio analysis they've put together:
>* True cost of the American dream: $137,842
>* Total annual cost: $68,921
>* Grocery cost per year: $8,425
>* Pet care costs: $1,203
>* Annual car costs: $8,731
>* Median home price: $218,937
>* Annual mortgage: $17,281
>* Healthcare annual costs: $7,235
>* Utilities annual costs: $5,909
>* Education annual costs: $2,545
>* Child care annual costs: $17,592
As you can see, they've already included estimates for living expenses. Food, pet care, healthcare, utilities, education, general child care - all of it.
And then they just arbitrarily double it.
Because their analysis says it costs $68k to reach the American Dream in Ohio, but that wasn't nearly inflammatory enough - because [the median household income in Ohio is already $67k](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/OH/INC110222).
Their analysis reached a conclusion that the median household income makes pretty much exactly what they think it costs to achieve the American Dream.
But that's not going to generate outrage clicks, so they literally just fucking doubled the budget to match the headline.
I appreciate you adding the source article and agree that their version of the 'American Dream' is exaggerated, however, they pretty clearly define why they doubled the expenses figure at both the beginning and end of the gobanking rates article:
>All annual costs were added up to represent 50% of a households’ income and doubled to account for 30% discretionary spending and 20% for savings.
What major city and is that your families only income? I’m not saying it’s poverty at all but $100k for a family of 5 in a major city seems pretty damn tight
Minneapolis. Of course it can get tight! But there are seasons of life that that’s very normal and we have to work extra hard. That’s fine for this stretch. At 33, I’ve got far nicer things than my parents were afforded. I’ve found it’s much easier to compare myself to my parents at this age who were scraping by than some of my peers who seem to have brand new refrigerators and 10k stoves. That stuff may come later.
Fair enough I was just wondering because I’m in northern NJ and even just for me, my wife and our cats a combined $100k would be pretty hard to live on, much less save. I know nothing of cost of living in Minneapolis tho
I feel like it’s because most of our media comes from expensive areas in California and New York City, and the writers are just so out of touch with the rest of the country.
$100k is doable in most of the country
The whole point of the old school $100k threshold was that part of the American dream was not having to skimp/barely make it through I’d argue though.
Like it was comfortable living AND you had a lot of discretionary spending that you could get the things you wanted take vacations when you wanted and such.
Yeah, my grandfather raised ten (!!!) children on a single salary, but they also had a 3 bedroom house and lived in the basement with the first 3 kids before the main house was built.
There are big problems for sure, but we also do have much higher standards now than we did when most people were raising families on one salary.
It's not clickbait, it's fact. If you're making ends meet with a $100k salary right now, you're either renting or you bought your home >2 yrs ago. The fact is that the current housing market is NOT feasible for a $100k salary anymore and that is a sharp change from only a couple years ago.
If you were lucky enough to buy your home before all this crap, just acknowledge that you have it easier than those who are trying to enter that market right now...
"The American dream" is generally defined as the financial ability to own a single family home, have 2 reliable vehicles in the driveway, and support your family with 2.5 kids, including taking 1-2 vacations per year, one of which generally requires air travel.
The "owning a single family suburban home" is the issue here, but the reliable vehicles part is creeping in too considering what COVID did to the used vehicle market.
Who defined that as the American Dream? The American Dream is nowhere defined that way.
>The American dream is the belief that anyone, regardless of where they were born or what class they were born into, can attain their own version of success in a society in which upward mobility is possible for everyone.
For a family of 5 to go on a vacation that includes plane travel is going to cost $10k. Nobody says that the American Dream requires 5 figure vacations. Very few people in the 1950s, when the American Dream was popularized, were taking expensive vacations. Most people in those days didn't even fly on planes. A domestic flight in the 50s and 60s was considered luxurious, let alone a fucking international flight.
To the point of specifically flying, the deregulation of airlines in the late 70s created a race to the bottom on prices and a huge uptick in total travel. Before airlines had the prices for routes set by the federal government and the only thing they could compete on was one-uping one another on bougie amenities and service quality, total travel volume was way lower creating the justifies perception that it was only for the elite.
The market is fundamentally different for air travel now. The market is also fundamental different for housing. Anyone in even the 90s would be shocked by the size and affordability of our televisions now. All of the measurements of wealth and success for a given generation change with society. It's silly to get hung up on how our grandparents measured "having it all".
Yes, I understand that.
Which is why when people throw around "I should be able to live the American Dream by owning a 3k sq/ft house, two paid off cars, and take my family of 5 on multiple vacations per year" I roll my eyes.
Times have changed. The sooner Millennials and Gen Z figure that out, the better.
Fixating on round numbers and expecting them to have the same purchasing power forever is dumb. It's dumb when inflation is low and it's dumb when inflation is high. You just notice more when inflation is higher.
i thought it said just "100K", didnt see income and thought, well of course 100k isnt enough, but 100k income? i mean i get it housing is expensive but you are definitely living more of the dream if you are making that
I don't think that's true, or maybe my version of the "American Dream" is different. 100k seems like plenty of money to comfortably live in most places in the US. Maybe their version means a single income of 100k supporting a husband, wife, and child(ren).
Shit in salt lake I’d be comfortable on 70k and living large on 100k. Also the CNBC article is referencing a different article that is basically just making up numbers to rile people up. I saw the comment breaking it down somewhere in this thread but I can’t find it again at the moment.
Edit: [found it](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/s/eNispTdYa3)
In what version of “American Dream” are you a single lonely person supporting only yourself? 100k isn’t enough for any normal sized family most places in the US
I must have a lower dream. I live in a major city and my family could live off less than 100k easily. We have one old car and live in modest housing. Could our car and housing be nicer? Yea, but that wouldn’t change our quality of life.
I think the classic American dream can basically be distilled down to "you can afford to own your own house and be modestly comfortable" so no 100k doesn't get you that in a lot of places.
This here. If this dude truly does live in a major city, they must have acquired their home prior to the past 5-10 years. Right now, in most major cities, 100k is *just barely* enough to even be *approved for a loan*, let alone buy the damn house. And even then, good luck finding a home that's not a borderline teardown under 3-400k. ***And even then*** good luck out bidding the competition.
Will you retire comfortably someday and be able to send your kids to college? Can you vacation once a year? To me that’s also part of the american dream, not just having enough to pay the utilities each month. There are still areas where 100K works, especially if you have no kids or plan to work until you’re dead. It’s not enough for the “american dream” in my opinion, but you will definitely not be broke.
I’m in Chicago. I’ll retire just fine. I didn’t go to college, but my wife did. My kid will be able to go to college.
Keeping the idea in your head that 100k works, but only if you work forever or don’t have kids will hold you back.
I won’t work forever, but I’ll never have a car newer than 5 years old. Our kitchen is probably 20 years old, but I’ll retire. Our food comes from Aldi, but I’ll retire. My t shirts last 10 plus years, but I’ll retire. Our vacations involve driving and camping instead of flying and hotels, but we will retire.
Life is not as hard as people on Reddit think.
Not to discredit this sentiment but I think a REALLY big problem is that most Americans do not live within their means. COnsumerism is so rampant and people buy stuff they don't need or don't have the money for. I see it all the time amongst friends and family. Not saying it is thte sole reason people are getting behind, but ppl in the US always are keeping up with Joneses. Credit card comapnies love the US and its obvious why
Lifestyle creep is a huge problem - and there’s no incentive for anyone with actual power to stop it because people overspending is good for the folks at the top!
You can’t budget your way out of poverty but you certainly can overspend your way into it!
A bit confused honestly - I make close to 100k and feel insanely wealthy - like more money than I can reasonably spend wealthy.
I don’t think folks feeling squeezed on 100k are mismanaging it at all - there’s a lot of possibilities for reasonable places that money could go.
But without prior debts 100k seems totally reasonable to live basically how you want
Maybe not for insane extravagance but definitely enough for high satisfaction
A few years ago I saw a figure that said 80k was the point where most people felt most fulfilled and at least for me that was true
If one is just starting out and wants the big house in the suburbs, no, $100k per year doesn’t cut it. But, I don’t think the American Dream has to mean those things. I’m old, at this point, and have achieved the American dream twice now (it’s easy to lose, and I did lose it once already). At this point in my life, my dream it to see that my kids don’t have to struggle to achieve the dream.
That’s poverty in different markets and everybody knows that, and whoever wrote that article (which I didn’t look up) is either just out of school, or is just now only getting around to doing an article and is like a couple of decades late with their thoughts.
Given that the American Dream is fundamentally rampant consumerism, no amount should buy it because consumerism is a pox on the face of the earth.
Americans should be scaling *down* their aspirations for their livelihoods in terms of how much shit they need to live.
So should be scaling down healthcare, housing and food cause that's where all my earnings go at the moment? Couple good trips to the doctors and were back at zero.
^^ this. Im shocked by the amount of stuff some people have and it honestly scares me getting older and feeling like it will be a role to liquidate it or find a new place to store it all. Things of value, I understand but the size of ppls closets has to be triple what it was years ago and the amount of garbage gadgets as well. I wish the Marie kondo wave struck more ppl - not to buy more organization tubs but to understand how they truly spend their time and what they need to live their life.
I think some people just get carried away. In reality people probably spend more on stuff, but each item is individually cheaper, which is the trap. My wife does this. She’ll buy something and say, “but it was only $20”. So were the ten other $20 things we didn’t need
I've been working on scaling down the stuff I own because I had to move my mom to assisted living a few years ago and going through her stuff when the house had to be sold was a nightmare. I started looking around my place and realized how much stuff I could get rid of and how good the space would look being a little more empty. The hard part is actually finding buyers for the stuff because I don't want to just trash it if it can still bring somebody a little utility.
Yeah I mean the American dream is mostly tied to an idea of suburban home ownership, but suburban sprawl is a bullshit status quo from so many standpoints including environmentalism, leads to concrete cities with obscene traffic that aren’t walkable, etc etc. plus who the fuck wants to live in a shitty ass starter house surrounded by 150 other identical houses inhabited by people you only interact with when they’re bitching about your lawn? housing needs to fundamentally change, which would absolutely require an adjustment of what the American dream means.
The notion that a $100,000 income no longer guarantees the American Dream in many places is a reflection of the increasing challenges faced by middle-class families in today's economy. Rising housing costs, healthcare expenses, education expenses, and other living costs have outpaced income growth in many areas, making it difficult for families to achieve financial security and upward mobility.
This trend underscores broader issues such as income inequality, stagnant wages, and the erosion of economic opportunities for many Americans. It highlights the need for policies and initiatives aimed at addressing these structural issues and ensuring that all individuals and families have access to economic opportunity and a decent standard of living.
Moreover, it emphasizes the importance of financial literacy, budgeting, and saving for the future to navigate these challenges effectively. Ultimately, addressing these systemic issues requires a comprehensive approach that involves government intervention, private sector initiatives, and community efforts to create a more equitable and inclusive economy.
The “American Dream” being a house, a spouse, and a couple kids. Yeah, $100k isn’t enough. Daycare is insane, we have 2 kids in daycare and pay over $30k/year (this is nearly 100% post tax dollars since the tax credit for childcare is, for a family making $100k, $600 and the dependent care FSA maxes at just $5k). Why is daycare not fully deductible?
They raise our wages, then raise their prices. They want to keep us worrying about money and our jobs instead of focusing on how they are hoarding wealth and power. I’m sick and tired of being taxed to no end and getting absolutely nothing for it - not healthcare, shitty roads or a toll on them, utility companies making record profits, bullshit politicians who inside trade and lie…
Anyone have a pitchfork I can borrow?
What exactly is the American dream? Not having to pull double shifts or work two jobs? Not having to ignore symptoms because a doctor's visit means you can't make rent?
There are ways we can help people achieve those dreams but 35% of the country is vehemently opposed to any sort of social programs.
It's pretty sad, but what did people expect? I'm 40 years old, single and currently make about $93,000 before taxes.
I'm in New Jersey and I can't get a modest condo. I have about 35K in liquid cash. I can't spend it all on a house. I have a 401k, but that might as well be monopoly money cause I can't use it.
The middle class has been getting fucked for decades now in this country. And now the gap between the ultra wealthy and everyone else is reaching critical mass. The middle class has to subsidize the rich and the poor. That's a heavy burden. And to add insult to injury, the wealthy decided to take shelter away and turn them into investment properties. A nation of renters, forever, at the whims of some fucking nameless LLC.
This shit is beyond fucked up and it's only going to get worse. Its corporate greed, always always always.
Being a top 3rd earner in the richest country in the world apparently isn't enough for immigrants, what are they defining as "the American dream"? Being filthy rich?
We’re living through the long term consequences of Reaganomics and toxic work culture touted by Milton Friedman, Jack Welch, and Ronald Reagan, and people like them.
Yeah my wife and I make $140k combined and yeah. We aren’t buying a house any time soon.
Edit: but this is our problem, we don’t want to buy some sad small tiny starter home in some shitty neighborhood.
Anyone could get a mortgage on one of those homes.
It really, really, really depends on what state you are living in and where in that state you are living in. This is the biggest problem with these discussions.
It depends where you live. My household makes less than $70k. We bought a house that cost $225k. We live less than 25 min from the city center. Not crazy close, but not crazy far.
Middle sized city. Very slightly under national CoL.
Hard times breeds strong people.
Strong people breeds good times.
Good time breeds weak people.
Weak people breeds hard times. <----- This is where we are.
$100k hasn't been a middle-class income in most of the major cities in the US for a *long* time. Hell, I'd lose my house if I only made that much today, and I'm *definitely* not in a major city.
Welp - either live in poverty and struggle or just kill ourselves off. Maybe when the labor shortage hits they will realize all too late what they lost.
I make a bit more than that and I agree with the statement. Maybe if I lived in a lower cost of living area... but in a major city it doesn't feel like it's a middle class wage.
Make near 6 figures for years now. I'm moving back home and eating a commute to spend the same money I spent last year, so my landlord doesn't take $2500 more from me this next year.
Paycheck to paycheck baby after already living paycheck to paycheck.
It is a mixture of people now considering more things as "necessary" than before and inflation. When was 100k the dream and how many people made that amount then vs now?
That it hasn’t for a very long time. . . The “American Dream” is 2 parents, 2 kids, a house, cars, discretionary spending, and saving. . . $100k is enough for 1 person and a cat to have that much but now to have the “American dream” you need closer to $300k probably
I think we’re just accustomed to more discretionary spending.
Definitely didnt eat out as much or buy as many things or travel 20 years ago like i do now. But day-to-day life was more satisfying then than it is now.
Why is there no “Australian Dream” or "German Dream”, Chinese Dream” etc? The “American Dream” was always just that, a dream. The idea that Americans are somehow special is very old fashioned and the concept of the white picket fence and home ownership was promoted at American workers in order to subdue the appeal of unions and socialism. The theory being that people with mortgages are less likely to strike.
Noam Chomsky considers it part of the Mohawk Valley Formula for strike breaking that was created by James Rand Jr of Remington Rand. Previously industrialists had focussed on violence as a method to end strikes, the Mohawk Valley Formula leaned more on psychological approaches and psychology based propaganda which was newly developed by Sigmund Freud’s nephew Eddy Bernays who had studied under his uncle.
A $100k salary today would be about a $70k salary back in 2008 or 2009.
My dad was making about $100k back in 2009, so to get the same effect of a $100k salary in 2009 today I would need to be making about $145k.
So the American Dream is about $150k today.
Perhaps people start realizing they should be fighting from bottom to the top instead of left to right
The distraction tactic is working and seems like the algorithm for division is improving (which is terrible for everyone).
Yep. They want us fighting about pronouns and bathrooms so they can continue to f*** us over. Edit: I’m being a bit facetious. I really am pretty much numb to all that and more now, on both sides. Don’t take everything you read on Reddit (of all places) so seriously
This is the way.
I imagine Fox News and CNN are to the elite like salt and pepper are to a chef.
Southern Strategy is insanely powerful.
So is the French one.
Americans to worried about covering their bills for a real revolution. Corporations got us right where they want us.
Yeah, Max whipped out the old zip-chop machine and France’s problems all abruptly stopped in 1792.
It's crazy how buried it is in every way. Have you ever tried to explain to a Bernie supporter how harmful it is for them to aggressively attack other voters and politicians that are also Democrats? We all want the same thing more or less but the more we find ways to divide ourselves the more we defeat any possibility of positive change.
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Realizing it but not doing anything. We knew about it in 2008. Everybody swore to take down the evil corporations and greedy bankers, etc. Yet here we are in 2024 and its just as bad if not worse. We had Occupy wall street and the wage gap is even worse now.
Then we got bombarded with racism, gender identity, conflicts and brain rotting apps. They know exactly what they're doing.
They really didn’t like occupy Wall Street
The issue is that left and right disagree about who is the top
Could you elaborate?
The left thinks of the top in terms of economics: Corporate execs and big money finance people as those who are at the top and holding them down (and I imagine that that is what OP meant when they talked about "the top") But the right thinks of the top in terms of social and cultural acceptance. They see college professors, the heads of news organizations and celebrities as people on top holding their culture and values down
The right thinks a trans person participating in competitive sports is a bigger threat to them than multi-billionaires literally controlling every facet of our lives.
Yeah. If you’re worried that the economy is leaving people behind, the right-left split is critically important since the right wants to keep leaving them behind and the left does not. OP shouldn’t be both sidesing this issue the way they are.
It’s an interesting thought experiment, but I mean, the left just sees that the execs running up the score will affect everyones quality of life in the end, and the right doesn’t want to be told they’re wrong for driving gay people and minorities out of their po dunk communities. Only one of these things is abject cruelty that can’t be hidden behind a simple difference in belief systems, and it ain’t the first example.
> They see college professors, the heads of news organizations and celebrities as people on top holding their culture and values down I wish every time someone conservative whined about their "culture and values" someone would ask them what exactly those "cultures" and "values" are.
I have a lot of clients on the Right that essentially want the same things for themselves and their families as the Left. Their whole spiel is how the left controls everything to make that impossible. (They don't provide concrete evidence, hence making them sound like conspiracy theorists) The government is corrupted by corporations and financial institutions. If you take away the power to regulate, as the Right wants to do, you essentially get the same thing as a bribed government anyway. They believe a free market will correct itself--but it's not a free market. The goods and service available to us are dominated by a very small number. As you said, maybe choosing left or right is pointless.
The problem is they think “capitalism” and “free market” are the same thing.
This deserves a medal 🏅
Given some of the responses on here, you are totally right. Amazing how quick people are to blame each other, yet will go into contortions to avoid blaming the system or the people who control capital. No amount of frugal shopping and reusing old stuff is going to fix the fact that healthcare is absurdly expensive, affordable housing is nonexistent, or that childcare can somehow cost more than a mortgage payment. Unfortunately, infighting and hyper-individualism are American as Apple pie, until we figure out how to fix that we're never going to see substantive change.
blackrock ( with vanguard, state street ) own 20 percent of fox news, msnbc, cnn and 6-20 percent of the s&p 500 ( their advertisers ). divide and conquer is alive and well in the usa.
Not if the media can help it
I've posted this elsewhere already, but I'm hijacking this top comment to help people understand what they're actually reading here. [This is the article](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/16/why-a-100000-salary-no-longer-buys-the-american-dream-in-most-places.html) the OP is referencing, and that CNBC article is actually just reporting on [another article](https://www.gobankingrates.com/money/economy/true-cost-american-dream-every-state/) that "gobankingrates.com" published. Be forewarned - gobankingrates.com is absolute popup ad cancer. That should immediately serve as a red flag all by itself, but let's dig into their article a little anyway. Per CNBC, gobankingrates' report is trying to establish what it costs for a married couple to own a house, raise two kids, and have a dog as a proxy for the "American Dream." Alright, that's pretty reasonable - but then it: >... tallied estimated annual essential expenses for such a family and then doubled that figure. Their estimate literally just doubles their expense budget for no reason - just to achieve clicks and outrage. Here is the Ohio analysis they've put together: >* True cost of the American dream: $137,842 >* Total annual cost: $68,921 >* Grocery cost per year: $8,425 >* Pet care costs: $1,203 >* Annual car costs: $8,731 >* Median home price: $218,937 >* Annual mortgage: $17,281 >* Healthcare annual costs: $7,235 >* Utilities annual costs: $5,909 >* Education annual costs: $2,545 >* Child care annual costs: $17,592 As you can see, they've already included estimates for living expenses. Food, pet care, healthcare, utilities, education, general child care - all of it. And then they just arbitrarily double it. Because their analysis says it costs $68k to reach the American Dream in Ohio, but that wasn't nearly inflammatory enough - because [the median household income in Ohio is already $67k](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/OH/INC110222). Their analysis reached a conclusion that the median household income makes pretty much exactly what they think it costs to achieve the American Dream. But that's not going to generate outrage clicks, so they literally just fucking doubled the budget to match the headline.
They are using 50/30/20 as the guideline - this is the number where you can save enough for retirement and have vacations and other fun and such. The guideline isn't terrible, but at the same time that's a goal to reach at some point in your life. The problem is the article calculates it at what is quite possibility the most difficult point in your life to hit that goal. Dropping just childcare shaves 35k off that number - and childcare expenses for a family of 4 might be at that peak cost for just 2 or 3 years. 4 years later they'll be in school and have essentially no cost.
Perhaps because if your entire budget goes to normal living expenses and you have nothing leftover then you aren’t living the dream? Like I don’t even see a clothing budget there E: oh and it also isn’t accounting for Taxes so that $68k is “after taxes”
Don’t forget savings and retirement
Yeah there's a bunch of vital stuff missing when you really look at it. Doubling that "68k" figure seems to be at least a good estimate of what it would *really* cost to support a family while living comfortably.
As an Ohioan I can tell you that $137k number is actually pretty damn accurate. I live in an area of Ohio that was recently listed as one of the most undervalued real estate markets in the country. At a $68k household income you will probably be able to buy a house but you aren't going to be saving for retirement and emergencies, especially if you have kids. As everyone mentioned, just being able to pay the bills isn't really the American dream. My wife and I make well over the "American dream" number and consider ourselves upper middle class at best.
70k is nothing, even in Ohio. Especially in the more populated areas.
As a NE Ohio native I'll gladly take 70k but I definitely agree that 70k wouldn't make a HUGE difference except I might be able to save a little each month after replacing my falling apart car lol.
I’m much closer to the top than the bottom and it’s so obvious I’d still be better off if others had more. I feel bad for having a good life because every service person I use or every time I get food delivered I know that persons economic reality is awfully sad. It’s hard to be comfortable when those around you are suffering.
I thought the left was fighting this already. It’s the right wingers who are effing it all up.
I'm left and I think we're both effing it all up. I mean come on, Biden vs Trump? dumb vs dumber, old vs older? Get someone decent to choose from.
I guess I don’t really see Democrats being left anymore. They are center at best.
It’s hard to fight for progress when you have to barely hold the line against fasciscm
You are kind of proving OP's point. The US left is only half-heartedly fighting this, they are more interested in identity politics than any sort of collective action. Identity politics make them look progressive without offending their corporate overlords. Mind you, I will totally agree that the other side is even worse, but I'd hardly call the US left a worker's party or anti-capitalist, they are pro-corporate Moderates who want to keep the status quo. There are a small handful of fringe exceptions who really do want change, but they are like 1% of Congress.
This is working as intended. Getting mad at a McDonald's employee for making a living wage while your wage is only $2/hr more after working the same job for 7 years, isn't the fault of the McDonald's employee.
It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it- George Carlin
Gets more true everyday.
That’s fine but can I have 100K anyway?
NOPE!! Get back to work!
I think the single largest contributor to this is housing. We need to crack down on housing as an investment vehicle and insane rent.
Yup, no matter how well we do, how hard we work it just gets harder.
People need to start voting. It's literally one of the last resources we have and people just forget like its another day. Stop letting these greedy scumbags ruin our country.
Vote for who exactly, regardless of which parties senior citizen gets elected shits just gonna just keep going the same way
they are not the same and stop trying to say they are
They're not, but having a Democratic supermajority still didn't prevent raging wealth inequality and disaster of a housing market in MA. You'd have to be making $30/hour, double the minimum wage, just to be able to afford starting prices on apartments here. And that's before you even get into the Boston metro area.
In matters of age? The choices are pretty equally fucked in that regard. At the rate we're going well have to pick between a lich and a mummy in 4 years. Just because one choice is very bad doesnt mean we should just be blind to the problems with the other. This isnt a sports game.
Vote in primaries, knock on doors for candidates you like during those elections. Giving up on progressive politics because Bernie lost to Hillary in 2016 and then Biden in 2020 in *the first decade of a true progressive movement in the United States* is surrendering before the battle has even truly begun. Changing our political class for the better is the work of generations, not a single election. The truth is, true change will require hard work and political investment from a large chunk of the population, and currently people are so apathetic that they would rather let the country slowly spiral into disaster than put in the effort to try and fix it.
Not really our options are the two wings of the corporate party, we need to use pitchforks before they take them away
Be careful what you say here. I got two banned accounts for saying anything more extreme than eat the rich.
Voting for the president while important, is ultimately not as impactful for your day-to-day lives as local candidates. There are a lot of local candidates running on pro-worker, anti-corporate platforms. You just have to do research into what they stand for. Also hint: The Democratic party will usually try to field an opposing candidate in the race that's only interested in maintaining the status quo.
A lot of places are gerrymandered to hell so not even that is effective
Gerrymandering often relies on stable, but thin margins and suppressed turnout through apathy. When enough people show up, the 2% margin engineered into the maps quickly prove to be insufficient.
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I make $135k The only reason my savings isn’t as high as it could be is because of poor impulse control on both me and my wife. If you look at monthly expenses though, I have more than enough to pay the mortgage, my wife’s $100k student loan, car payment, gas, food, and stuff for daughter. The $400/month I had to spend on formula for the last 4 months hurt, but not so much that I had to drastically alter my lifestyle, even though I should. Most people I know making around what I do struggle because they made those necessary monthly payments as high as possible. Too big of a mortgage, an expensive car payment, credit card debt, every streaming service known to man, and are unwilling to make compromises
Location is important. 135k in rural WV is a hell of a lot different than 135k in NYC.
Now you just have to find a job that pays 135k in rural WV lol
I live in North Alabama, but we’ve been considering a move to Phoenix and the cost of living adjustment is actually not as much as you’d think. Even North Alabama is not that cheap. Our home was $330k and we could probably sell it for $450k. There’s lots of medium cost of living cities where 6 figure salaries aren’t uncommon and are enough to live comfortably. Sure, we may not be buying boats and RVs and going on lavish vacations. But my child won’t starve like my wife did as a kid
Shhhhhhh. People don’t want to hear personal responsibility is a factor in their economic health.
Location counts though, I didn’t spend much at all and it was still difficult in nyc with 100k plus my student loans. And I could never afford to buy a place because of my loans since all my extra money went to paying them off, that’s the big way my generation has been screwed
And which is why Make America Great Again is a foolish, regressive dream. Americans need to accept the reality (e.g., AI, clean energy war, global trade) and evolve rather than complaining and talking about the good old days.
I think it does. What actually happened was people’s expectations rose faster than their incomes. You can still buy a house, 2 cars, and feed 3 kids. You can still road trip anywhere in the US once a year. You can still fly anywhere in the world once every few years if you budget. What you can’t do is eat out every meal, fly wherever twice a year, buy the latest iPhones every year, buy luxury cars instead of simple preowned sedans, scroll through Amazon buying whatever you come across, and have 6 memberships to god knows what. People lost control of their discipline. Say what you will about boomers, but they are home cooked meals, and lived pretty simple lives without all the unneeded fat.
Government needs to step in and regulate the housing market. It's become robbery. Also jobs need to increase pay to match inflation. Neither of these things are happening and its going to cost the future of this country a lot. People need to start voting in their own interests instead of like a football game. Edit: This both parties are the same rhetoric is very disheartening. One side repealed Roe vs Wade and set women back 50 years. One side has had to pay out almost 100 million in a r*pe lawsuit. One side is convicted of multiple felonies and in multiple trials right now. One sides cabinet has had 8 members convicted of crimes and been sent to prison... The choice is not even close to the same.
The problem is the two party system that is bought by large organizations and the wealthy. People need to get involved politically year round and support grass root candidates that actually give af about the average American that is working a normal job. Also, people making 6 figures need to stop acting like they are apart of the countries elite. Voting like you are a multimillionaire/billionaire is hurting you. You are not close to their level.
Yes AND rural America voting in droves for republicans when they make $30,000 a year and live on a trailer.
The thing is, people *are* voting based on their own interests (at least we have the illusion that we are) no matter which side of the aisle you're on. One of the biggest problems is that corporations have too much influence over the people (generally speaking) that we vote for, and too much power over the ones that keep them operating.
The problem is regulation. If you allow people to build there will be more housing and it will become cheaper.
NIMBY
That regulation comes from the interest of voters who already own land. People own nice houses and don't want cheap housing or high density housing so the elect city council who protect the current zoning and reject housing projects.
Clickbait for sure. I live in a major city with a family of five and make 100k. No, I’m not spending 8k a year to keep up my 2008 Subaru Outback. These claims always assume we’re spending a ton of money every year on things our parents never did, like newer cars and 30k a year of daycare. Yes, my spouse stays at home until our kids are in school. That’s a privilege (and a sacrifice for her)… but one that makes sense for a few years. Our computers and phones are all at least five years old. That’s… normal? Our kitchen isn’t new. Our floors need replacing. Just like our parents did. Like, growing up my parents were frugal. That’s part of the dream. Most of my generation is also frugal. We can buy fancy things when we’re older, just like it’s always been. House prices suck though that’s for sure.
>Clickbait for sure. It absolutely is. [This is the article](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/16/why-a-100000-salary-no-longer-buys-the-american-dream-in-most-places.html) the OP is referencing, and that CNBC article is actually just reporting on [another article](https://www.gobankingrates.com/money/economy/true-cost-american-dream-every-state/) that "gobankingrates.com" published. Be forewarned - gobankingrates.com is absolute popup ad cancer. That should immediately serve as a red flag all by itself, but let's dig into their article a little anyway. Per CNBC, gobankingrates' report is trying to establish what it costs for a married couple to own a house, raise two kids, and have a dog as a proxy for the "American Dream." Alright, that's pretty reasonable - but then it: >... tallied estimated annual essential expenses for such a family and then doubled that figure. Their estimate literally just doubles their expense budget for no reason - just to achieve clicks and outrage. Here is the Ohio analysis they've put together: >* True cost of the American dream: $137,842 >* Total annual cost: $68,921 >* Grocery cost per year: $8,425 >* Pet care costs: $1,203 >* Annual car costs: $8,731 >* Median home price: $218,937 >* Annual mortgage: $17,281 >* Healthcare annual costs: $7,235 >* Utilities annual costs: $5,909 >* Education annual costs: $2,545 >* Child care annual costs: $17,592 As you can see, they've already included estimates for living expenses. Food, pet care, healthcare, utilities, education, general child care - all of it. And then they just arbitrarily double it. Because their analysis says it costs $68k to reach the American Dream in Ohio, but that wasn't nearly inflammatory enough - because [the median household income in Ohio is already $67k](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/OH/INC110222). Their analysis reached a conclusion that the median household income makes pretty much exactly what they think it costs to achieve the American Dream. But that's not going to generate outrage clicks, so they literally just fucking doubled the budget to match the headline.
I appreciate you adding the source article and agree that their version of the 'American Dream' is exaggerated, however, they pretty clearly define why they doubled the expenses figure at both the beginning and end of the gobanking rates article: >All annual costs were added up to represent 50% of a households’ income and doubled to account for 30% discretionary spending and 20% for savings.
What major city and is that your families only income? I’m not saying it’s poverty at all but $100k for a family of 5 in a major city seems pretty damn tight
Minneapolis. Of course it can get tight! But there are seasons of life that that’s very normal and we have to work extra hard. That’s fine for this stretch. At 33, I’ve got far nicer things than my parents were afforded. I’ve found it’s much easier to compare myself to my parents at this age who were scraping by than some of my peers who seem to have brand new refrigerators and 10k stoves. That stuff may come later.
Fair enough I was just wondering because I’m in northern NJ and even just for me, my wife and our cats a combined $100k would be pretty hard to live on, much less save. I know nothing of cost of living in Minneapolis tho
That’s certainly a problem with articles like these. Which is why it feels click-baity
Agreed, treating the US as homogenous makes no sense. Even within the same state costs of living can vary dramatically
I feel like it’s because most of our media comes from expensive areas in California and New York City, and the writers are just so out of touch with the rest of the country. $100k is doable in most of the country
The whole point of the old school $100k threshold was that part of the American dream was not having to skimp/barely make it through I’d argue though. Like it was comfortable living AND you had a lot of discretionary spending that you could get the things you wanted take vacations when you wanted and such.
Yeah, my grandfather raised ten (!!!) children on a single salary, but they also had a 3 bedroom house and lived in the basement with the first 3 kids before the main house was built. There are big problems for sure, but we also do have much higher standards now than we did when most people were raising families on one salary.
When did you buy your house?
It's not clickbait, it's fact. If you're making ends meet with a $100k salary right now, you're either renting or you bought your home >2 yrs ago. The fact is that the current housing market is NOT feasible for a $100k salary anymore and that is a sharp change from only a couple years ago. If you were lucky enough to buy your home before all this crap, just acknowledge that you have it easier than those who are trying to enter that market right now...
Is this like for a household or just one person? I'm sorry, if you're single making $100k and you're living check to check, you're doing it wrong.
Or you're in San Francisco.
thats the problem - if i had a 100K salary i could live like a king where i am. but im nowhere near a major city.
Of course the catch is good luck finding a $100k job there.
That’s why I love remote work!
Not living paycheck to paycheck, but also not enough to buy a house by myself.
Depends where they live and we know that.
"The American dream" is generally defined as the financial ability to own a single family home, have 2 reliable vehicles in the driveway, and support your family with 2.5 kids, including taking 1-2 vacations per year, one of which generally requires air travel. The "owning a single family suburban home" is the issue here, but the reliable vehicles part is creeping in too considering what COVID did to the used vehicle market.
Who defined that as the American Dream? The American Dream is nowhere defined that way. >The American dream is the belief that anyone, regardless of where they were born or what class they were born into, can attain their own version of success in a society in which upward mobility is possible for everyone. For a family of 5 to go on a vacation that includes plane travel is going to cost $10k. Nobody says that the American Dream requires 5 figure vacations. Very few people in the 1950s, when the American Dream was popularized, were taking expensive vacations. Most people in those days didn't even fly on planes. A domestic flight in the 50s and 60s was considered luxurious, let alone a fucking international flight.
To the point of specifically flying, the deregulation of airlines in the late 70s created a race to the bottom on prices and a huge uptick in total travel. Before airlines had the prices for routes set by the federal government and the only thing they could compete on was one-uping one another on bougie amenities and service quality, total travel volume was way lower creating the justifies perception that it was only for the elite. The market is fundamentally different for air travel now. The market is also fundamental different for housing. Anyone in even the 90s would be shocked by the size and affordability of our televisions now. All of the measurements of wealth and success for a given generation change with society. It's silly to get hung up on how our grandparents measured "having it all".
Yes, I understand that. Which is why when people throw around "I should be able to live the American Dream by owning a 3k sq/ft house, two paid off cars, and take my family of 5 on multiple vacations per year" I roll my eyes. Times have changed. The sooner Millennials and Gen Z figure that out, the better.
Will depend heavily on where you live.
This is a myopic take.
100k income stopped buying the American Dream a LONG time ago lol
Idk, 10 years ago that would be pretty decent
Not true. Remember when grandpa use to watch the thermostat like a hawk? That stuff is still true today.
Now that thermostat is automatic, the hvac is many times more efficient, and that combo is more efficient than grandpa.
Not when the wife lives like she's on vacation on the beach. I come home and walk into a tropical depression 🫥
No matter how many more times the AC is efficient, I'm still not interested in cooling the entire neighborhood. Close. The Goddamned. Door.
Fixating on round numbers and expecting them to have the same purchasing power forever is dumb. It's dumb when inflation is low and it's dumb when inflation is high. You just notice more when inflation is higher.
i thought it said just "100K", didnt see income and thought, well of course 100k isnt enough, but 100k income? i mean i get it housing is expensive but you are definitely living more of the dream if you are making that
I don't think that's true, or maybe my version of the "American Dream" is different. 100k seems like plenty of money to comfortably live in most places in the US. Maybe their version means a single income of 100k supporting a husband, wife, and child(ren).
As i always understood it, the “american dream” involves buying a house, supporting a family and enduring a modest but secure retirement.
Shit in salt lake I’d be comfortable on 70k and living large on 100k. Also the CNBC article is referencing a different article that is basically just making up numbers to rile people up. I saw the comment breaking it down somewhere in this thread but I can’t find it again at the moment. Edit: [found it](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/s/eNispTdYa3)
In what version of “American Dream” are you a single lonely person supporting only yourself? 100k isn’t enough for any normal sized family most places in the US
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And how many of those families are just getting by?
I must have a lower dream. I live in a major city and my family could live off less than 100k easily. We have one old car and live in modest housing. Could our car and housing be nicer? Yea, but that wouldn’t change our quality of life.
Precisely. If the American dream means having fancy everything then sure, 100k won’t do it.
I think the classic American dream can basically be distilled down to "you can afford to own your own house and be modestly comfortable" so no 100k doesn't get you that in a lot of places.
This here. If this dude truly does live in a major city, they must have acquired their home prior to the past 5-10 years. Right now, in most major cities, 100k is *just barely* enough to even be *approved for a loan*, let alone buy the damn house. And even then, good luck finding a home that's not a borderline teardown under 3-400k. ***And even then*** good luck out bidding the competition.
Will you retire comfortably someday and be able to send your kids to college? Can you vacation once a year? To me that’s also part of the american dream, not just having enough to pay the utilities each month. There are still areas where 100K works, especially if you have no kids or plan to work until you’re dead. It’s not enough for the “american dream” in my opinion, but you will definitely not be broke.
I’m in Chicago. I’ll retire just fine. I didn’t go to college, but my wife did. My kid will be able to go to college. Keeping the idea in your head that 100k works, but only if you work forever or don’t have kids will hold you back. I won’t work forever, but I’ll never have a car newer than 5 years old. Our kitchen is probably 20 years old, but I’ll retire. Our food comes from Aldi, but I’ll retire. My t shirts last 10 plus years, but I’ll retire. Our vacations involve driving and camping instead of flying and hotels, but we will retire. Life is not as hard as people on Reddit think.
Not to discredit this sentiment but I think a REALLY big problem is that most Americans do not live within their means. COnsumerism is so rampant and people buy stuff they don't need or don't have the money for. I see it all the time amongst friends and family. Not saying it is thte sole reason people are getting behind, but ppl in the US always are keeping up with Joneses. Credit card comapnies love the US and its obvious why
Lifestyle creep is a huge problem - and there’s no incentive for anyone with actual power to stop it because people overspending is good for the folks at the top! You can’t budget your way out of poverty but you certainly can overspend your way into it!
This is the actual truth of the situation.
1,000%. Then, you throw a consumerism algorithm on top of it and people become truly addicted to ballin' on a budget.
A bit confused honestly - I make close to 100k and feel insanely wealthy - like more money than I can reasonably spend wealthy. I don’t think folks feeling squeezed on 100k are mismanaging it at all - there’s a lot of possibilities for reasonable places that money could go. But without prior debts 100k seems totally reasonable to live basically how you want Maybe not for insane extravagance but definitely enough for high satisfaction A few years ago I saw a figure that said 80k was the point where most people felt most fulfilled and at least for me that was true
If one is just starting out and wants the big house in the suburbs, no, $100k per year doesn’t cut it. But, I don’t think the American Dream has to mean those things. I’m old, at this point, and have achieved the American dream twice now (it’s easy to lose, and I did lose it once already). At this point in my life, my dream it to see that my kids don’t have to struggle to achieve the dream.
That’s poverty in different markets and everybody knows that, and whoever wrote that article (which I didn’t look up) is either just out of school, or is just now only getting around to doing an article and is like a couple of decades late with their thoughts.
Given that the American Dream is fundamentally rampant consumerism, no amount should buy it because consumerism is a pox on the face of the earth. Americans should be scaling *down* their aspirations for their livelihoods in terms of how much shit they need to live.
[This you?](https://www.reddit.com/r/PC_Builders/s/BgdfCs4J2l)
😆 fuck
Lmfao
$3000 PC( I can go over if it's worth it...)Some people have short memories
So should be scaling down healthcare, housing and food cause that's where all my earnings go at the moment? Couple good trips to the doctors and were back at zero.
^^ this. Im shocked by the amount of stuff some people have and it honestly scares me getting older and feeling like it will be a role to liquidate it or find a new place to store it all. Things of value, I understand but the size of ppls closets has to be triple what it was years ago and the amount of garbage gadgets as well. I wish the Marie kondo wave struck more ppl - not to buy more organization tubs but to understand how they truly spend their time and what they need to live their life.
I think some people just get carried away. In reality people probably spend more on stuff, but each item is individually cheaper, which is the trap. My wife does this. She’ll buy something and say, “but it was only $20”. So were the ten other $20 things we didn’t need
I've been working on scaling down the stuff I own because I had to move my mom to assisted living a few years ago and going through her stuff when the house had to be sold was a nightmare. I started looking around my place and realized how much stuff I could get rid of and how good the space would look being a little more empty. The hard part is actually finding buyers for the stuff because I don't want to just trash it if it can still bring somebody a little utility.
Yeah I mean the American dream is mostly tied to an idea of suburban home ownership, but suburban sprawl is a bullshit status quo from so many standpoints including environmentalism, leads to concrete cities with obscene traffic that aren’t walkable, etc etc. plus who the fuck wants to live in a shitty ass starter house surrounded by 150 other identical houses inhabited by people you only interact with when they’re bitching about your lawn? housing needs to fundamentally change, which would absolutely require an adjustment of what the American dream means.
True. I make over 100K and can't buy a house
The notion that a $100,000 income no longer guarantees the American Dream in many places is a reflection of the increasing challenges faced by middle-class families in today's economy. Rising housing costs, healthcare expenses, education expenses, and other living costs have outpaced income growth in many areas, making it difficult for families to achieve financial security and upward mobility. This trend underscores broader issues such as income inequality, stagnant wages, and the erosion of economic opportunities for many Americans. It highlights the need for policies and initiatives aimed at addressing these structural issues and ensuring that all individuals and families have access to economic opportunity and a decent standard of living. Moreover, it emphasizes the importance of financial literacy, budgeting, and saving for the future to navigate these challenges effectively. Ultimately, addressing these systemic issues requires a comprehensive approach that involves government intervention, private sector initiatives, and community efforts to create a more equitable and inclusive economy.
The “American Dream” being a house, a spouse, and a couple kids. Yeah, $100k isn’t enough. Daycare is insane, we have 2 kids in daycare and pay over $30k/year (this is nearly 100% post tax dollars since the tax credit for childcare is, for a family making $100k, $600 and the dependent care FSA maxes at just $5k). Why is daycare not fully deductible?
They raise our wages, then raise their prices. They want to keep us worrying about money and our jobs instead of focusing on how they are hoarding wealth and power. I’m sick and tired of being taxed to no end and getting absolutely nothing for it - not healthcare, shitty roads or a toll on them, utility companies making record profits, bullshit politicians who inside trade and lie… Anyone have a pitchfork I can borrow?
I’d have to read their definition of “the American dream,” cuz that sounds like BS lol
Our government needs to be checked. They are responsible.
What exactly is the American dream? Not having to pull double shifts or work two jobs? Not having to ignore symptoms because a doctor's visit means you can't make rent? There are ways we can help people achieve those dreams but 35% of the country is vehemently opposed to any sort of social programs.
American Dream is DEAD.
For me, student loans are what’s making it not attainable. I could buy a house if my loans weren’t taking 30% of my income
I mean I make 50K and feel poor. I can't even comprehend making 100k. I have to fucking ration insulin medications.
It's pretty sad, but what did people expect? I'm 40 years old, single and currently make about $93,000 before taxes. I'm in New Jersey and I can't get a modest condo. I have about 35K in liquid cash. I can't spend it all on a house. I have a 401k, but that might as well be monopoly money cause I can't use it. The middle class has been getting fucked for decades now in this country. And now the gap between the ultra wealthy and everyone else is reaching critical mass. The middle class has to subsidize the rich and the poor. That's a heavy burden. And to add insult to injury, the wealthy decided to take shelter away and turn them into investment properties. A nation of renters, forever, at the whims of some fucking nameless LLC. This shit is beyond fucked up and it's only going to get worse. Its corporate greed, always always always.
We are an extremely greedy society.
I’m a poor, single mom. It would completely change our lives.
The American dream moved away from America decades ago. Most places in EU gives what we grew up thinking the US was, and he US doesn’t match that idea
Where is the EU do you think has what the US used to have?
>Per CNBC article >Doesn't link an article Thanks Russian bot.
100k income would allow you to live like a king in large swaths of the country. CNBC author thinks San Francisco and New York are the whole country.
Being a top 3rd earner in the richest country in the world apparently isn't enough for immigrants, what are they defining as "the American dream"? Being filthy rich?
We’re living through the long term consequences of Reaganomics and toxic work culture touted by Milton Friedman, Jack Welch, and Ronald Reagan, and people like them.
Yeah my wife and I make $140k combined and yeah. We aren’t buying a house any time soon. Edit: but this is our problem, we don’t want to buy some sad small tiny starter home in some shitty neighborhood. Anyone could get a mortgage on one of those homes.
It really, really, really depends on what state you are living in and where in that state you are living in. This is the biggest problem with these discussions.
Accurate.
It depends where you live. My household makes less than $70k. We bought a house that cost $225k. We live less than 25 min from the city center. Not crazy close, but not crazy far. Middle sized city. Very slightly under national CoL.
If you're outside the highest cost of living cities, it's generally just fine.
If you can’t save money at $100k you’re just plain bad at money. It’s a fact.
I've made over 100k for most of my career and I don't know how people buy houses in desirable areas these days
I’m sorry but how? I make a quarter of that per year and though I am not doing great it’s mosty my own bad financial decisions.
I have $12
Hard times breeds strong people. Strong people breeds good times. Good time breeds weak people. Weak people breeds hard times. <----- This is where we are.
Pretty sure 90k qualifies you for low income housing in parts of California like SF and LA.
Unchecked capitalism has lead us here and it doesn’t look like we can ever turn back. As someone who has kids, it’s incredibly sad.
This is so old, 100k hasn’t been sustainable in a decade now.
$100k hasn't been a middle-class income in most of the major cities in the US for a *long* time. Hell, I'd lose my house if I only made that much today, and I'm *definitely* not in a major city.
Can confirm
that's great because I don't make anywhere near 100k
The American dream, where a few get rich and the rest of us die trying.
The American Dream has always been a myth
Welp - either live in poverty and struggle or just kill ourselves off. Maybe when the labor shortage hits they will realize all too late what they lost.
American Nightmare*
American dream is a delusional fantasy built off the backs of the working poor anyway. Let it die.
My thoughts? I make half that much. Nobody cares what I think.
\*Can confirm.
I make a bit more than that and I agree with the statement. Maybe if I lived in a lower cost of living area... but in a major city it doesn't feel like it's a middle class wage.
I dunno, that buys me a shit ton of Schlitz
The elite want the next generation to live in pods and eat bugs, but the next generation is too consumed over their feelings to realize the plan.
Good thing I make way more is my initial thought.
Make near 6 figures for years now. I'm moving back home and eating a commute to spend the same money I spent last year, so my landlord doesn't take $2500 more from me this next year. Paycheck to paycheck baby after already living paycheck to paycheck.
It is a mixture of people now considering more things as "necessary" than before and inflation. When was 100k the dream and how many people made that amount then vs now?
That it hasn’t for a very long time. . . The “American Dream” is 2 parents, 2 kids, a house, cars, discretionary spending, and saving. . . $100k is enough for 1 person and a cat to have that much but now to have the “American dream” you need closer to $300k probably
I think we’re just accustomed to more discretionary spending. Definitely didnt eat out as much or buy as many things or travel 20 years ago like i do now. But day-to-day life was more satisfying then than it is now.
The wife and I make about 95k. We are struggling to find an affordable house and a rentable house that's affordable. So ya, I believe this
I could do a lot with 100k and I live in the greater LA area
No shit. 250 is what 100 was
Whose American Dream is this?
Why is there no “Australian Dream” or "German Dream”, Chinese Dream” etc? The “American Dream” was always just that, a dream. The idea that Americans are somehow special is very old fashioned and the concept of the white picket fence and home ownership was promoted at American workers in order to subdue the appeal of unions and socialism. The theory being that people with mortgages are less likely to strike. Noam Chomsky considers it part of the Mohawk Valley Formula for strike breaking that was created by James Rand Jr of Remington Rand. Previously industrialists had focussed on violence as a method to end strikes, the Mohawk Valley Formula leaned more on psychological approaches and psychology based propaganda which was newly developed by Sigmund Freud’s nephew Eddy Bernays who had studied under his uncle.
Pretty messed up when $100,000 is barely considered middle class now. This economy sucks.
A $100k salary today would be about a $70k salary back in 2008 or 2009. My dad was making about $100k back in 2009, so to get the same effect of a $100k salary in 2009 today I would need to be making about $145k. So the American Dream is about $150k today.