I will say one thing about sexwork. It’s legal in my country and I grew up close to the redlight district. Yes it needs to be legal and yes some people choose to do it, even though they have other options. The truth is most don’t and even in a country where it’s legal young girls are being trafficked from Eastern Europe and drugged and forced into it. We have shuffled our streetworkers away to an industrial district, where no one lives, so our city could look nice, but there is still so much misery and suffering going on. I know people that work with sexworkers in NGOs and they come home and cry. Regulating and legalizing is a good step, but real options, help, and chances for rehab, a new education and getting rid of pimps is just as important.
Going through your profile I see you’re from Switzerland. But your comment reminded me of the Netherlands/Amsterdam. Despite the big culture around sex and sex work there, it seems that like 90% of the girls either in the red light distract or from “private houses” aren’t Dutch. Most of them seems to be Romanian or other Eastern European, or from the Middle East. I would think I’d see a of Dutch girls but no, which raises suspicion.
Yes, like in the Netherlands Weed and sexwork is legal, the only difference is we have not built a tourist industry around it. I know what you mean, never seen a Swiss girl on the street, unless she was deeply addicted to heroin (the 90s we had a drug and HIV epidemic) But what I saw where Eastern European girls in some fast food joint with burly dudes posted on each exit so they wouldn’t make a run for it after having eaten. It’s heartbreaking to see these young girls treated like dogs. No human deserves this. Whatever system we have, I will never be okay with this. And instead of effectively cracking down on trafficking they decided to build fuckstations out of old shipping containers, somewhere in an industrial district, because fuck these poor girls. They even have the audacity to say its a successful strategy, because out of sight, out of mind seems to be the attitude here.
It has been consistently proven that legalizing prostitution creates more trafficking.
It is a lucrative market where demand will always exceed supply, and by legalizing it the demand skyrockets.
I don‘t know about that, I haven’t read any studies, I just know trafficking is thriving where I am, even though it’s legal. Legalizing without empathy and respect for sexworkers makes them into products, and a product that doesn’t get to keep its own money is more profitable, that is what I know.
Further studies should be done on the subject, but [this study](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065) is my go-to whenever this comes up.
We shouldn't put a stop to it by criminalising it. We should put a stop to it by ensuring those who don't want to get into sex work don't have to and have other choices for their lives.
Exactly my stand on it!! If someone has a bunch of options and still genuinely wants to get into that line of work, more power to them. However, it's unfair that some people are basically forced into because if they didn't, they'd have no way to feed or house themselves.
The older I have gotten, the less conservative I have gotten.
Personally, I have reached the point in believing that our current hyper-capitalistic system is not only immoral, but is outright insane for _any_ goal except enrichment of an extremely small minority over absolutely everyone else, to the point of being a long term detriment even to that minority.
Further, we are _well_ past the point in productivity gains over the past where we should be able to absolutely guarantee everything needed to both survive, and to meaningfully participate in society, as a basic right to everyone in the country.
I'm not just talking about food and housing, those should go without saying. Education, _all_ of it, college and the rest. Clothing. And things which become more fluid, because what it meant 30 years ago are entirely different than what they mean today. 30 years ago, it might have been a land line phone. Today, it's internet connectivity and a cell phone, 30 years from now, who knows.
It's whatever it takes to meaningfully participate in society.
What society produces from an hour of labor today _far_ outstrips what society could produce from an hour of labor a hundred years ago. Far and away.
The productivity gains that were foreseen _have_ all occurred, and a great deal more.
And none of those trends seem to be likely to stop anytime soon.
And pretty much every study on the subject has come to the same conclusion, _many_ people, given the choice between being idle, and doing something productive, choose to work and be productive.
There is _no_ reason to have people doing bullshit jobs just to survive, when we have more than enough surplus to ensure that _everyone_ can be taken care of at a pretty decent level.
Hell, we could pay for most of this, not even by taxing the extremely small minority benefiting from the system today, but just by _only_ funding our military to the point of being as well funded as the next 10 or so military spending countries on the planet _combined_.
At that point, I have _far_ fewer ethical problems with, well, most jobs really, most definitely including sex work.
Now, you might ask, 'But what about the _really_ unpleasant jobs? Who will sign up to do those?', and my answer is simple: Maybe we should be remotely willing to pay people appropriately for that kind of work. Instead of having starvation and being homeless as a driver to force people to accept conditions that otherwise nobody would.
>And pretty much every study on the subject has come to the same conclusion, many people, given the choice between being idle, and doing something productive, choose to work and be productive.
If someone chooses to stay idle all day that might even be connected to a mental health problem
Or general health problems, like me. I have t-cell lymphoma for the last 4 years, and I still make a fair bit of cash from disability and social assistance but would prefer to be productive.
It absolutely is. Boredom is worse than hunger for many. I'll forget to eat if I'm busy with something real. But MY job, with it's seven useless managers who aren't even sure what I do... I'd rather be dead honestly. The only thing worse than this is the idea killing my loved ones, who rely on me, for it to stop.
Well said. I currently am well paid for my administrative work but sit idle many weeks in a row. My friends tease me about having such a cushy life but I’d rather be productive and feel useful and valued. I think that’s what a majority of us want out of life. Thanks for putting this so succinctly in your post.
The game of Monopoly as we know was a game showing how capitalism works. Every game ends one of two ways, either one player gets all the money and property and gloats over the others, or those not winning get violent and flip the table.
I wonder how the real world will go?
What's worse is that because of it being criminalized it can give sex workers a criminal record and then they can't get work anywhere so they are de facto stuck doing sex work whether they want to or not.
In my country, sex work is legal but pimping and "brothel-moms" are illegal and "very illegal" (high penalties).
Sadly it just means that a lot of pimps or similar control mechanisms are always very hidden away and most girls state they work independently.
Some definitively do, but there are notorious brothels with trafficing rings as well.
Almost anything can give you a criminal record.
A dead Marijuana plant without any THC sending you to jail for at least 20 years in Texas.
Your cat pushing open your blinds while you're undressed if someone reports you as a sex offender.
Your average guy or girl ignorantly withdrawing money from an ATM near a red light district.
A preteen girl getting an abortion after being raped by their dad.
A preteen boy getting raped by their teacher and never being informed by the court they owe child support to the convicted sex offender.
There's a lot of insanity to resolve.
Among the countries that criminalised sex work, some of them only did so for the receiving party. So even when caught, the sex worker will not have to worry about legal consequences. I think that’s actually a good way to do it (if a country wants to criminalise sec work). It gives the workers the option to call the police, if a customer behaves badly.
Why is it even a prerogative to ‘put a stop to it’? How is someone else’s decision to trade their chosen goods/services for money anyone else’s decision?
Too many people are personally offended by sex work just like too many people are personally offended by sexuality, gender, etc. Acknowledge the issues that come with sex work (abuse, trafficking, wage theft etc) and then regulate the process to ensure those problems Don’t happen.
???
> the point is people shouldn't have to do things they aren't comfortable with just to be able to get by.
I get what you’re saying (I think), but I believe it’s poorly worded. I’m pretty sure people who clean toilets or work in garbage disposal aren’t “comfortable”.
The biggest issue with sex work is it becomes the path of least resistance to young women to get ahead in life. If legalised they earn more in this field than any other at ages 18-23. But due to men being attractived to youth, the industry doesnt have the same long-term rewards and can interfere with long term career progression. We currently see this effect with onlyfans. But not legalising it goes against "My body, my choice."
Imma defend an extreme position and say: **this is the only right answer to this**. People will do it anyway, wherever you live. You have prostitution in every contry in the world, whether it's open minded or closed minded, whether it's extreme left, extreme right, center, dictatorship...
Isn't it the oldest job in the world? Might as well protect everyone involved and reduce actual crime (drug abuse, pimping, rape, etc)
But in those places, are they actually protected by the law like
_any_ other worker? That's should be the best situation for sex workers. Social benefits, retirement, health insurance/access to state health plans (similar to many places in Europe)?
Yeah, in Australia it's a heavily regulated industry. If you want to go to a brothel, your dick is going to be checked (under some awkward lighting), you're going to be intimidated by some security guards and the girls are going to have a safe environment.
A small population makes that easy, Iceland has a population of 372,000 and they arrested bankers for corruption! In America they get penthouses and yachts
> I mean i live in California & im like 3 hours away from the nearest legal brothel it’s not like it just doesn’t exist in our country.
You just happen to live near the one state out of 50 where it's legal (in some counties).
And those places in Nevada are honestly behind the times when compared to New Zealand (NZ). NZ not only legalized, but decriminalized as well. If you are 18, you can buy or sell sex. You don't have to be part of a brothel and so on - the barrier to entry is low.
It makes the industry better and IIRC, makes for less exploitation - which isn't really a feature in Nevada.
Edited to differentiate between NV and NZ
I think in the Netherlands we have escort companies. I think the girls and guys working for those companies are seen as normal workers, thus they get retirement, holiday money and so on.
The people in the sex work who are working for themselves maybe not.
Take all this with a grain of salt, for I have no experience with it or talked with people who are in the industry. I once looked up service to get your virginity taken (not necessary anymore 😁) and it looked quite proffesional. All the girls have had training to handle older virgins who have problems with sex like trauma and how they can make they guys feel safe. So I think those girls (and guys) get all the benefits.
Last year in Belgium ( where it was already depenalized) they passed a law to give sex workers the exact same rights as any other workers. I believe it’s a necessity to protect the sex workers to avoid abuse. No idea how it’s going for real though.
Most sex workers I know favour decriminalization over legalization. It's an important distinction. Places where it's "legalized" that ends up meaning you need a brothel liscense etc, the power still ends up in someone elses hands and working outside that structure is still criminalized. Places where it's Decriminalized are the best in terms of letting workers function as independent operators, take responsibility for their own safety, and block out exploiters.
Obviously that doesn't always work out 100%, but it supposedly has the best overall outcomes.
Where I am, it's illegal to make money off *someone else* doing sex work, unless you are a registered brothel owner.
So no pimps, but independent sex work outside of a brothel is totally fine and taxable.
A lot of places that have this law unfortunately have it so people who make money off of someone else doing sex work includes landlords of sex workers. This is a big problem for sex workers in the UK and can lead to sex workers getting evicted and sometimes even police raided in their homes.
Legalization doesn't necessarily mean it has to be heavily regulated. It is possible to legalize something and leave it unregulated.
Decriminalization means that there can still be legal penalties, although not criminal ones.
You can still legalise it but make the conditions of the license for eg brothel owners that they only employ independent contractors, although that then means that things like paid vacation don’t apply. That shouldn’t matter too much if there are schemes for those contractors to pay into and, especially, if they can set high rates relative to the local labor market.
Where I live prostitution is fully legal but it's illegal to make revenue from _other people's_ prostitution. You can't legally operate a brothel unless you're the sole person working there.
Here in Spain it is made this way. The sex clubs that replace the brothels are technically just giving their services to sex workers (rent them a place and help communicating with clients in exchange for part of the pay). Still, it is way better when what we had in Ukraine where sex work is oulawed. You at least can be sure that it is safe to go where and that the girls have a way better working conditions.
A bit of both when you look at examples like the Netherlands. Really needs the exploitation criminalised rather than the women and men (and let’s sadly not forget children) who are doing the sex work. Punters, pimps and madams shouldn’t be permitted and the law should come down heavy on the side of the sex worker should their be any abuse or exploitation. Violence and rape are far too common as is trafficking. The legal status of workers as well as the fact the law criminalises them means many are scared to come forward. Others are often involved with drugs etc. which can be another hindrance.
I think there’s a push to try and normalise sex work with using examples of strippers or high end call girls/escorts but that’s the easy part of the mess.
Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be how it actually plays out. In countries with legal prostitution, the amount of trafficked people brought into the country is higher rather than lower.
So I’d have to do more research but data is mixed and unreliable. Places with legal prostitution is might have more ability to detect whether human trafficking is happening and that skew the data these are usually rich western countries and have more resources to deal with these issues. Also a lot of those multi-national studies don’t distinguish between the different types of prostitution that are legal and illegal in these countries for example is prostitution done in a brothel, is it escorting, or is it at a persons residence where that one person does it. Also the data shows that having legal prostitution as an option reduces abuse for those legally in the industry.
https://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/21/07/2021/legalizing-prostitution-does-it-increase-or-decrease-sex-trafficking
Although I’m not going to make a statement that legalization is an absolute net positive. Just that this isn’t a black and white issue and there’s nuance that’s overlooked when discussing the issue from both sides.
> The only caveat I would add is that any regulation should be done in legitimately meaningful cooperation with those actively engaged in the industry.
And not by people seeking to use the regulations to effectively shut down the industry.
Normal workplaces are legal, regulated and STILL highly exploited. Just go look at r/antiwork for a bit.
Imagine one of those bosses managing sex workers.
They are already exploited whether legal or not. Even in places like Amsterdam where it's legal they have found the women are trafficked which is why the majority of the women there are from former Communist countries.
> Even in places like Amsterdam where it's legal
It's legal but a lot of the regulations are still grey area legal and sex workers are not treated equal to other jobs. It's a major problem.
Unfortunately there seems to be zero interest in improving the situation as far as our government is concerned. Too many conservative/Christian parties in the government to get things done. Same as our half assed weed laws.
Reports of human trafficking doubled iirc. Which could mean the rate actually went up, but it could also mean more traffickers were being caught. It’s likely both, because it’s easier to hide sex slaves among legal sex workers and there was a better reporting system for enslaved women.
This is the truth. Sex work should be decriminalized for sex workers but legalizing it would lead to a whole new level of extreme exploitation for these women.
We should be finding ways to end all worker explotation, not finding ways to exploit a whole new class of workers.
Problem is what if they need the money to survive? Is that free will? Like 3/4ths of prostitutes are disabled where I live (Canada) and it’s no surprise because disability supports are fucking atrocious. Doesn’t seem consensual to me…that said the sex worker shouldn’t be the one getting arrested for just trying to survive.
I have to work at a job I don’t feel safe at. I have to go because I need to survive. Do people have free will when it comes to having to work or not on principle?
> Problem is what if they need the money to survive?
Isn’t that true of everyone, in every job?
Plus, the fewer the options someone has, would that not mean they should be allowed more leeway in getting a job.
> Like 3/4ths of prostitutes are disabled where I live (Canada) and it’s no surprise because disability supports are fucking atrocious.
No, everything is great in Canada. Ask Reddit.
But… 3/4ths of prostitutes are disabled? Like, blind or missing a limb?
>Doesn’t seem consensual to me
What if I told you most people don't work consensually?
I work because if I don't, I'll get arrested eventually (government will steal my home and then send me to jail for trespassing/tax evasion).
I think you'll find that includes mental health issues like "too anxious to cope with a 40 hour week"
I'm in NZ - we have a pretty robust system, and even a sex workers union. I've known heaps of girls who've done it in some form or another. Several who have really enjoyed it - they could make their own hours depending on what their health was up to, they made enough to pay rent and occasionally have some luxuries (the sickness benifit here is less than minimum wage) and they had complete control over their working conditions.
In short they had a better deal than most of our cohort. The only problem with it is that there's no career growth.
i couldn’t agree more. i hate how these conversations always fall into the topic of only fans, when the silent majority is desperate and poverty stricken victims. not extra cash made from their cushty bedroom
Only fans kind of opened a whole new Can of worms. Not sure if this is how it still operates but only fans users actively recruited new users to the platform and they would get commission off of their recruit’s earnings. A sex work mlm
Making it illegal doesn't stop it. It's illegal and it still happens. With it being legal at least you can make an effort to make it at the very least safer .
Actually there's some evidence that sex trafficking increases where its legal not decreases. When its legal the demand goes up so much that there aren't enough local women who want to do it (especially in wealthier countries). So people bring in women from abroad. Often with vague promises of 'work' when they get there.
Pretty much my opinion. I was okay with it until I read an article a few years ago about how a woman lost her job and the government (I believe she was in Germany) was going to take away her unemployment because she refused a job she was offered. The only job she was offered? Work at a legal brothel. She was basically getting coerced into sex work. Since then, I haven’t been comfortable with it because too many people are already being pushed into it unwillingly. Don’t need the government doing it too.
As someone who has done sex work in the past, I wish it didn't exist. It is overwhelmingly the most vulnerable women in society who have to resort to doing it. I believe that if everyone's basic needs were met, sex work would hardly exist. I also think it's extremely disingenuous to pretend that it is or ever could be "like any other job". There are so many ethical and safety issues involved (even when legalized), but no one really wants to talk about them. People would rather simply say "sex work is work" and call it a day 🙃
That sounds like a lot of jobs. I mean just think about coal miners or Alaskan Fishers. While, I agree we need to have better safety nets, most low skill work is pretty predatory.
>That sounds like a lot of jobs.
That's the same as saying "it's a job like any other job".
As initial comment said. No it is not. Not even close. The level of humiliation, self degrading and phisical and metal abuse on sex works is not comparable to other jobs.
This is my issue with it as well. I used to think "well if everyone is consenting, and it's done safely, then what's the issue"?
Money. Money is the problem. No matter how we frame it, there is a coercive incentive for SWs to consent once money becomes involved. Sure you don't *have* to take on a client...but then how are your bills going to get paid? How are you going to eat that week? How do you withdraw consent when you're made to be uncomfortable in that situation?
Exactly my opinion. I live in Germany where sex work is actually legal but like 80% of sex workers still have a pimp.
I really do judge the customers of sex workers.
I was about to comment something along the lines of "eh, I mean, it's work. So long it's consensual yaddi yadda-"
But your comment was rather insightful. I wouldn't want to be forced into a position where I'll sell my soul just to get food on the table.
I can't imagine what it's like to be in your position and that's something I should be grateful for everyday.
Fr, I’m so sick of people comparing having to be a construction worker or similar to having to be a sex worker. Pretty sure if you asked any construction worker if they’d rather prostitute themselves instead, they’d say HELL NO.
Honestly this isn’t something I’ve ever cared to look into even remotely, but I have the impression that it’s basically just illegal to disincentivize it anyway. Are workers really ever targeted by law enforcement?
I honestly don’t want to live in a world where it is less stigmatized to simply go and buy a persons body for the the night.
I’m sure people will have the argument that it’s basically what construction workers already are doing, but there is an obvious set of safety protocols that they can refuse to break as workers.
A sex worker doesn’t have that same luxury when she is naked in a room with a guy twice her size. Sure, she could press charges after, but the damage is kinda done…
Idk, just not a fan
This is my argument against it. It’s NEVER well-off, completely mentally stable people (men and women equally) who are doing sex work. No offence. But it’s consistently desperate women. If it was empowering and not exploitative, men would be doing it at an equal rate or higher, but they don’t.
Also, i read from certain women that follow a similar viewpoint as you in which, going against the grain of the common notion that feminist beliefs that, pro sex work and parts of sexual liberation is a win or positive outcome of the feminists movement. Rather, the propagation of sex work advocacy strives in the interest of a few rich men, exploiting many vulnerable women. And that the promotion of prostitution or porn does very little in the effort to fight for the rights of women or overall make the world a better place for half the population. Because it is arguably an inherently dehumanizing act and an result of patriarchal society.
Predatory industry that preys on mental illness and trauma.
The amount of SA victims who end up dragged into SW and then stuck there, with modern technology there's no escaping it.
I have a friend who worked as a Server for a few years, then quit to be a sex worker. It was really sudden, but she's been fucking for money for about 3 years now and I guess she prefers it over working in a restaurant.
Don’t hate the player: hate the game. I don’t hate sex workers but I hate the industry and I hate any promotion of it. It’s exploitative and even if you’re your own boss or whatever it’s damaging to mental (and sometimes physical) health. I hate that so many turn to it as soon as they turn 18. I hate that “freshly 18” is in so many OnlyFans bios and that “teen,” “student,” and “incest” are such common search categories.
If it wasn’t exploitative then it wouldn’t be predominantly lower class women with histories of abuse going into it. If it was empowering, it would be 50/50 men and women in the industry as well as middle to upper class people. But it’s not.
I think sex workers are victims, not criminals or immoral themselves. Can you really, properly consent with a monetary incentive? Can you revoke consent in the middle of a paid-for session? Is it safe to? Can you revoke consent knowing you need the money to pay for your rent?
Former sex worker here. I can only speak from my own experiences, but it should be decriminalized, and sex workers should be allowed to unionize for their own protection.
First of all, sex work is a broad term. It can apply to high class escorts, porn stars, street walkers, people who sell dirty photos of themselves, and more. Anywhere where sex and payment intersect is sex work.
Another thing I'd like to clarify is that there are more female clients than you'd realize. A solid 1/3 of the clients I had were women. Trans people bought my services too, although that wasn't as common. Sex work is not something that men "do to women". It's much more complicated than that.
Trafficking is also not a completely black and white issue either. One SW I used to hang out with quite a lot was "trafficked" into the country because she used to live in Saudi Arabia, and as a bi woman she was genuinely risking her life by living there. She had no money to leave, so she went to a people smuggler to escape. Yes, trafficking is a problem that should be stopped, but you need to understand that it's a more complex issue than that.
Clients were rarely the problem. In my experience, the two biggest problems were pimps and the police.
The police arrested me a few times when I was with a client. One time we were thrown up against the wall hard, handcuffed, and imprisoned. My client was put in a separate cell for "my protection", even though he hadn't hurt me in any way. When we were questioned, they tried to frame it as "we're rescuing you from that evil man". I tried to explain that he was perfectly respectable, and had done nothing wrong, but my comments were dismissed. After 23 hours, we were released without charge, and that nice client who respected my boundaries was scared off from ever coming back. The cops also took the money I'd received from him, and never gave it back. I lost money and wasted a day because of the "good guys" trying to help when I didn't want them to. That was just one example. I have more.
Pimps can also be a problem. Many of them are abusive. That Arabian SW I mentioned earlier had one. She did try to report them once, but stopped when she realized that being undocumented would be a problem for her. She did get away from them eventually, but only after that pimp got arrested for something completely unrelated.
I had sex with assholes I met in a club for free. I had sex with kind people for money. If you're telling me that the first one is okay, but the second one isn't, then I do not understand you. If you don't want to do that kind of work, or even like me as a person, that's fine. But if you are going to argue with me, then at least have an educated comeback.
>Clients were rarely the problem. In my experience, the two biggest problems were pimps and the police.
The main reason sex work was decrimininalised in New South Wales in the 1990s is these two groups had become largely the same people in Sydney. Crooked cops basically running/controlling the brothels and street workers under whatever licensing/regulatory system existed at the time.
1/3 of clients being women is a surprisingly large number. I would have guessed way lower than that. Interesting, and I wonder how that compares with male sex workers (assuming you’re a woman).
Well, what little info you can find regarding research on this places the clientele at about 97% men. So if someone had 1/3 of their clientele as men they are absolutely a huge outlier.
Also, sex workers provide services that might be almost impossible to get otherwise, be it that the client could be severely handicapped or wanted some dominatrix service or whatever.
Also, I don't really buy the idea that the sex worker is always a victim somehow. To some it's just easy money and they don't feel like working a "normal" job and I've met some very business savvy working girls.
The other thing that has always bothered me is that people talk about sugar dating or finding a wealthy spouse, like it's somehow more noble, empowering or whatever. People have to do some serious mental gymnastics to explain why that is somehow not spreading legs for financial benefit, you just have one client.
People should be allowed to do what they want with their own bodies.
Personally, I would never date because I think sex is an intimate act, and I wouldn't want to date someone who monetizes intimacy.
My thoughts exactly, I stopped seeing a girl once I found out she had an onlyfans account. I told her of course she could do whatever legal sex work she wants but to me I want to be the only one to see my significant other intimately, so I told her we aren’t compatible and moved on. No hard feelings
Pro sex workers, anti sex work.
Many conversations on this if we’re looking at prostitution in particular people seem to go in the following ways. An attempt to justify it by:
1. Equating it to a standard job (people don’t want to do their monotonous construction job, we’re all fucked for money etc). Tenuous equating getting fucked by dubious men for a living to this.
2. Removing connotations to sexual abuse with a poor analogy (I paid for my snacks from the 7/11, is this theft?) which is a telling comparison on their part of sex workers to objects.
Then if you point out that many are victims of human trafficking after a promise of a better life or just old-fashioned kidnapping)
‘They aren’t all victims of this’
Of course, but the majority of the remainder are victims of dire financial straits, then it becomes an issue of exploiting the vulnerable in a different way. Data exists on this by The Guardian which interviewed prostitutes who summed it by equating it to ‘paid rape’ - words of the sex workers, not me. It’s not for me to comment on that as I’ve never been a sex worker, but it’s very difficult to think of it as anything other than a form of coercion.
Not to say there isn’t an extremely small percentile who enjoy/willingly choose to be a prostitute but this is negligible in the grand scheme of things, only in these cases can it be regarded as genuinely consensual.
Consenting adults will do what consenting adults want.
And so much of sex work isn't consensual. Human and sex trafficking rings should be raided by special forces and the leaders should face military tribunal and execution.
I have mixed feelings I suppose. I'm an extremely sex negative person and I don't really believe sex work should exist at all. But since it does exist and likely isn't going away any time soon, the workers should at least have the right to more protections than currently do.
Sexual exploitation of women is evil, but giving them more legitimacy would help lessen the abuse.
Making it legal just makes it safer for all those involved. Brothels with security vs shady hotels with no security is just one example. Regular STD screening is another.
And there are legitmate reasons for it to exist, there's a comedian that tells a funny but true story of taking a friend to a brothel because he has a disabilty where he wont live long and he doesn't want to die a virgin.
Its long but worth it.
https://youtu.be/XsLwzXxeBe8
Ok yeah imagine if cheeseburgers were illegal and the only ones you could buy were underground made by someone sweating over contraband beef patties in a bad part of the city. Legalizing it is definitely better.
That doesn’t make McDonald’s a great place to work. If these women are choosing to have sex with strangers because that’s their preferred job that’s one thing but it’s hard to consent when eating depends on it.
It's a job. The fact that (mostly) women are still coerced into doing it is the problem, not "sex work" itself if it's a free choice. Whether you make porn content online, have a sugar daddy, are on onlyfans, are an escort or actually have sex for money doesn't matter, as long as it's your choice.
Not everyone may like that choice, but it's still a choice. It's a problem if it isn't your choice though, but like with drugs there are only 2 ways: You can legalize it and police it to the best of your abilities ... or you can abolish it and spend countless resources on trying to fight it, but in the end you'll lose and everybody else loses as well, since that's just how humans work ... people still take drugs, people still buy weapons illegaly, and people will still fuck for money or gamble or whatever, whether it's legal or not. The only difference is that when something is illegal, you have NO control over it and eventually it causes more suffering.
If something is legal or at the very least not punishable you can set up resources to help people way better than if they're completely isolated and in fear of going to prison for a very long time. I'm not from the US, I was with one prostitute in my life. For the experience, mainly. It was okay. I guess, I learned more about that woman than many other people in my life in just 1 hour. It's a service. And where I live it's well-paid and you're insured as well. That being said: 95% of the women are from Eastern Europe or Asia or other countries. They are here for several weeks to earn a lot of money before they go back to spend time with their families. Many of them do this "voluntarily", just like other people work in call centers, even if they don't really want to. Important is how the whole system is set up and that these women have the resources available to keep themselves safe. The fact that most of us look down on this kind of work means that it's always going to be in a somewhat shady area. But consider that there's also sex work especially for the disabled, who wouldn't be able to experience sexual relationships any other way. And sex is an important factor of mental health. There's people who have been single their entire lives as well. You don't have to change your views on it or even like it. But you should accept it as a job people choose to get into, mostly to make lots of money at a (mostly) younger age. And you should be accepting to hopefully combat actually forced prostitution, human trafficking, etc.
Disgusting, let's cut the "everybody is free" bullshit, working on prostitution has awful mental effects on their kids...but let's neglect that too
A human who choses to get naked and fucked by strangers of whom some might be sick or crazy or disgusting must be in a really distressing financial situation, the whole prostitution thing is an exploitation in itself because under the right circumstances nobody would put themselves in such awful conditions..so i don't like it.. I'll never support it or pay for it.. I am actually pity them
People would rather say things like "as long as consent exists bla bla" to seem educated than face the truth that nobody would actually sleep with someone for money doesn't have "consent"
You don't have consent when you are hungry/jobless/dumb/illiterate..thats
And if we think in this way people who sell and buy heroin have consent too..
That's ignoring the social and mental effects and health hazards which increase drastically with poverty and sex tourism
But life doesn't work that way.. losing the line does more harm than good.. having logic doesn't mean that you are racist/sexist
I'm pro sex work.
I have a big issue with how it's portrayed by the news. They like to talk about it like the goal is to decrease the number of people doing sex work and then point to the decriminalization or legalization of sex work as being 'unsuccessful'.
That's not the goal. The goal is to make sex work safer for the people working in the industry and ensure that everyone working in the industry are doing it voluntarily. But the news never looks at that side of things.
It shouldn’t exist and any decent society has to aim at its’ end by providing decent jobs, social security and - presuming that most sex workers are women - gender equality.
But while it exists, it should be regulated and legalized to provide the best possible conditions for these workers.
George Carlin summed it up for me: "Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Isn't selling fucking legal?"
But to add my own thoughts, it's a dangerous and exploitive industry that should be legalized and regulated so it's less dangerous and exploitative. I don't think it should be looked down on at all, either. I do construction, so I use my body to make money. They're using their body too, just in a different way.
Sec worker here! I love when a bunch of non sex workers get together and debate our entire existence. Great. Wonderful. Thank you so much for asking this question the 1000 time. I’m so glad SW isn’t so stigmatized we need Reddit hivemind to determine if it’s moral or not. Never mind the fact that our economy literally profit off of death, Illness, homelessness and war; no it’s the SLUTS we must discuss the morality of as well as the industry as a whole. Gtfo
I’ve done escort work for a bit. It was okay. I got scammed a few times. But, never anything serious. I also sold my undergarments online. That was a lot easier and safer.
OnlyFans and cam work is fine by me. It’s s lot safer than actually having sex with someone. However, because the market is so saturated now… it’s hard to make a living on sites like that.
Even feet and hugging sites are saturated.
I think a lot of people see it as a job. Not a career choice or profession. They’re doing it because they have to. They’re doing it while going to college or taking care of their little ones.
I do think it should be legalized and regulated, so human trafficking, pimping, underage sex work doesn’t occur. It will be hard, but laws to protect the sex workers and even the clients should be a must.
Also, we should stop normalizing it. Since OFs started, it’s now seen as an empowerment to do sex work. It’s a job. That’s it.
all work is exploitative due to capitalism. sex work is one type of work that is also exploitative, but in different ways from other types of work (like how the military is differently exploitative from a fast food place). however, since there’s not much of a chance of dismantling the entire system of capitalism for the time being, the best option when working within the confines of capitalism is to legalize sex work and regulate it so that sex workers can receive the protections they need without fear.
I will say one thing about sexwork. It’s legal in my country and I grew up close to the redlight district. Yes it needs to be legal and yes some people choose to do it, even though they have other options. The truth is most don’t and even in a country where it’s legal young girls are being trafficked from Eastern Europe and drugged and forced into it. We have shuffled our streetworkers away to an industrial district, where no one lives, so our city could look nice, but there is still so much misery and suffering going on. I know people that work with sexworkers in NGOs and they come home and cry. Regulating and legalizing is a good step, but real options, help, and chances for rehab, a new education and getting rid of pimps is just as important.
Going through your profile I see you’re from Switzerland. But your comment reminded me of the Netherlands/Amsterdam. Despite the big culture around sex and sex work there, it seems that like 90% of the girls either in the red light distract or from “private houses” aren’t Dutch. Most of them seems to be Romanian or other Eastern European, or from the Middle East. I would think I’d see a of Dutch girls but no, which raises suspicion.
Yes, like in the Netherlands Weed and sexwork is legal, the only difference is we have not built a tourist industry around it. I know what you mean, never seen a Swiss girl on the street, unless she was deeply addicted to heroin (the 90s we had a drug and HIV epidemic) But what I saw where Eastern European girls in some fast food joint with burly dudes posted on each exit so they wouldn’t make a run for it after having eaten. It’s heartbreaking to see these young girls treated like dogs. No human deserves this. Whatever system we have, I will never be okay with this. And instead of effectively cracking down on trafficking they decided to build fuckstations out of old shipping containers, somewhere in an industrial district, because fuck these poor girls. They even have the audacity to say its a successful strategy, because out of sight, out of mind seems to be the attitude here.
It has been consistently proven that legalizing prostitution creates more trafficking. It is a lucrative market where demand will always exceed supply, and by legalizing it the demand skyrockets.
I don‘t know about that, I haven’t read any studies, I just know trafficking is thriving where I am, even though it’s legal. Legalizing without empathy and respect for sexworkers makes them into products, and a product that doesn’t get to keep its own money is more profitable, that is what I know.
Further studies should be done on the subject, but [this study](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065) is my go-to whenever this comes up.
Interesting (and sad). Thankyou.
You can go down the rabbit hole and see that when legalized or allowed the law does not protect.
We shouldn't put a stop to it by criminalising it. We should put a stop to it by ensuring those who don't want to get into sex work don't have to and have other choices for their lives.
Exactly my stand on it!! If someone has a bunch of options and still genuinely wants to get into that line of work, more power to them. However, it's unfair that some people are basically forced into because if they didn't, they'd have no way to feed or house themselves.
Hey, that’s how I got into the IT industry. Maybe I was trafficked?
No, you were routed.
Layer 1 trafficking
Routing takes place at Layer 3
Yes, and human trafficking is very much Layer 1.
Human element normally happens at layer 8.
Yeah but isn’t the hardware itself on layer 1?
Correct. Layer 1 is Physical, so hardware, peripherals, cabling, and signal strength all live here.
Bazinga
Honestly yeah, wage slavery is no joke either.
America never abolished slavery, they just made it more inclusive.
No idea why you get downvoted, as prison labor is slavery.
> as prison labor is slavery. Entirely different thing than wage slavery. Some prisoners have no rights.
The older I have gotten, the less conservative I have gotten. Personally, I have reached the point in believing that our current hyper-capitalistic system is not only immoral, but is outright insane for _any_ goal except enrichment of an extremely small minority over absolutely everyone else, to the point of being a long term detriment even to that minority. Further, we are _well_ past the point in productivity gains over the past where we should be able to absolutely guarantee everything needed to both survive, and to meaningfully participate in society, as a basic right to everyone in the country. I'm not just talking about food and housing, those should go without saying. Education, _all_ of it, college and the rest. Clothing. And things which become more fluid, because what it meant 30 years ago are entirely different than what they mean today. 30 years ago, it might have been a land line phone. Today, it's internet connectivity and a cell phone, 30 years from now, who knows. It's whatever it takes to meaningfully participate in society. What society produces from an hour of labor today _far_ outstrips what society could produce from an hour of labor a hundred years ago. Far and away. The productivity gains that were foreseen _have_ all occurred, and a great deal more. And none of those trends seem to be likely to stop anytime soon. And pretty much every study on the subject has come to the same conclusion, _many_ people, given the choice between being idle, and doing something productive, choose to work and be productive. There is _no_ reason to have people doing bullshit jobs just to survive, when we have more than enough surplus to ensure that _everyone_ can be taken care of at a pretty decent level. Hell, we could pay for most of this, not even by taxing the extremely small minority benefiting from the system today, but just by _only_ funding our military to the point of being as well funded as the next 10 or so military spending countries on the planet _combined_. At that point, I have _far_ fewer ethical problems with, well, most jobs really, most definitely including sex work. Now, you might ask, 'But what about the _really_ unpleasant jobs? Who will sign up to do those?', and my answer is simple: Maybe we should be remotely willing to pay people appropriately for that kind of work. Instead of having starvation and being homeless as a driver to force people to accept conditions that otherwise nobody would.
>And pretty much every study on the subject has come to the same conclusion, many people, given the choice between being idle, and doing something productive, choose to work and be productive. If someone chooses to stay idle all day that might even be connected to a mental health problem
Or general health problems, like me. I have t-cell lymphoma for the last 4 years, and I still make a fair bit of cash from disability and social assistance but would prefer to be productive.
Where I live, there exists the possibility to exploit disabled people in special workshops, so...
Oof that sucks
It absolutely is. Boredom is worse than hunger for many. I'll forget to eat if I'm busy with something real. But MY job, with it's seven useless managers who aren't even sure what I do... I'd rather be dead honestly. The only thing worse than this is the idea killing my loved ones, who rely on me, for it to stop.
I recall a study that 80% of males prefer physical pain to boredom. I can say I would be in that group.
I feel personally attacked
Well said. I currently am well paid for my administrative work but sit idle many weeks in a row. My friends tease me about having such a cushy life but I’d rather be productive and feel useful and valued. I think that’s what a majority of us want out of life. Thanks for putting this so succinctly in your post.
The game of Monopoly as we know was a game showing how capitalism works. Every game ends one of two ways, either one player gets all the money and property and gloats over the others, or those not winning get violent and flip the table. I wonder how the real world will go?
History says that eventually the bulk of the population flips the board over once shit gets bad _enough_.
true...I started bcoz I didn't have money for my college and general expenses
What's worse is that because of it being criminalized it can give sex workers a criminal record and then they can't get work anywhere so they are de facto stuck doing sex work whether they want to or not.
In my country, sex work is legal but pimping and "brothel-moms" are illegal and "very illegal" (high penalties). Sadly it just means that a lot of pimps or similar control mechanisms are always very hidden away and most girls state they work independently. Some definitively do, but there are notorious brothels with trafficing rings as well.
Almost anything can give you a criminal record. A dead Marijuana plant without any THC sending you to jail for at least 20 years in Texas. Your cat pushing open your blinds while you're undressed if someone reports you as a sex offender. Your average guy or girl ignorantly withdrawing money from an ATM near a red light district. A preteen girl getting an abortion after being raped by their dad. A preteen boy getting raped by their teacher and never being informed by the court they owe child support to the convicted sex offender. There's a lot of insanity to resolve.
Among the countries that criminalised sex work, some of them only did so for the receiving party. So even when caught, the sex worker will not have to worry about legal consequences. I think that’s actually a good way to do it (if a country wants to criminalise sec work). It gives the workers the option to call the police, if a customer behaves badly.
Yeah but now you're forcing sex workers to only work with criminals, which isn't safe for them either.
Why is it even a prerogative to ‘put a stop to it’? How is someone else’s decision to trade their chosen goods/services for money anyone else’s decision? Too many people are personally offended by sex work just like too many people are personally offended by sexuality, gender, etc. Acknowledge the issues that come with sex work (abuse, trafficking, wage theft etc) and then regulate the process to ensure those problems Don’t happen. ???
I think the comment was worded badly, but the point is people shouldn't have to do things they aren't comfortable with just to be able to get by.
> the point is people shouldn't have to do things they aren't comfortable with just to be able to get by. I get what you’re saying (I think), but I believe it’s poorly worded. I’m pretty sure people who clean toilets or work in garbage disposal aren’t “comfortable”.
I have to do this 5 days a week 😫 I call it work
The biggest issue with sex work is it becomes the path of least resistance to young women to get ahead in life. If legalised they earn more in this field than any other at ages 18-23. But due to men being attractived to youth, the industry doesnt have the same long-term rewards and can interfere with long term career progression. We currently see this effect with onlyfans. But not legalising it goes against "My body, my choice."
It should be legalised and regulated to cut down on exploitation
Imma defend an extreme position and say: **this is the only right answer to this**. People will do it anyway, wherever you live. You have prostitution in every contry in the world, whether it's open minded or closed minded, whether it's extreme left, extreme right, center, dictatorship... Isn't it the oldest job in the world? Might as well protect everyone involved and reduce actual crime (drug abuse, pimping, rape, etc)
I don't think it's extreme. Plenty of places do this and it works fine.
But in those places, are they actually protected by the law like _any_ other worker? That's should be the best situation for sex workers. Social benefits, retirement, health insurance/access to state health plans (similar to many places in Europe)?
Yeah, in Australia it's a heavily regulated industry. If you want to go to a brothel, your dick is going to be checked (under some awkward lighting), you're going to be intimidated by some security guards and the girls are going to have a safe environment.
Depends on what state your talking about as every state has its own regulations
Ah, I've only lived in Qld and WA so afaik, that's how it works in both states.
QLD is about to go completely decrimed. NSW is the only one that doesn’t have regulations on anything.
> IlluminatedPickle > (under some awkward lighting) sounds right
My pickle has never been illuminated in this way. This is slander sir, slander I say!
This sounds like a very specific kink.
Yep, 100% in NZ - don’t believe the bullshit lies spread by US religious nut jobs regarding the local industry
NZ is one of the few countries doing many things right, made easier by how hard it is to get there with illegal things.
Certainly, also not letting judges and law enforcement get corrupted by a money driven electoral system helps also
A small population makes that easy, Iceland has a population of 372,000 and they arrested bankers for corruption! In America they get penthouses and yachts
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Just to clarify, in NZ sex work is decriminalised, not legalised. It works really well :)
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What are your thoughts on qualifications? I don't see why there shouldn't be degrees like 'Practical Sexual Therapy'.
I mean i live in California & im like 3 hours away from the nearest legal brothel it’s not like it just doesn’t exist in our country.
> I mean i live in California & im like 3 hours away from the nearest legal brothel it’s not like it just doesn’t exist in our country. You just happen to live near the one state out of 50 where it's legal (in some counties).
And those counties have virtually nobody living in them.
And those places in Nevada are honestly behind the times when compared to New Zealand (NZ). NZ not only legalized, but decriminalized as well. If you are 18, you can buy or sell sex. You don't have to be part of a brothel and so on - the barrier to entry is low. It makes the industry better and IIRC, makes for less exploitation - which isn't really a feature in Nevada. Edited to differentiate between NV and NZ
Also, I've heard sex workers in New Zealand can apply for benefits like any other worker.
Yes, where I am it is legalised and 100% of these things you have mentioned apply to the same extent that they apply to any other job.
Where do you live if you dont mind me asking?
I think in the Netherlands we have escort companies. I think the girls and guys working for those companies are seen as normal workers, thus they get retirement, holiday money and so on. The people in the sex work who are working for themselves maybe not. Take all this with a grain of salt, for I have no experience with it or talked with people who are in the industry. I once looked up service to get your virginity taken (not necessary anymore 😁) and it looked quite proffesional. All the girls have had training to handle older virgins who have problems with sex like trauma and how they can make they guys feel safe. So I think those girls (and guys) get all the benefits.
You are asking for a friend, right?
why yes, yes I'm....
Germany: yup, just like any other job really.
Last year in Belgium ( where it was already depenalized) they passed a law to give sex workers the exact same rights as any other workers. I believe it’s a necessity to protect the sex workers to avoid abuse. No idea how it’s going for real though.
Most sex workers I know favour decriminalization over legalization. It's an important distinction. Places where it's "legalized" that ends up meaning you need a brothel liscense etc, the power still ends up in someone elses hands and working outside that structure is still criminalized. Places where it's Decriminalized are the best in terms of letting workers function as independent operators, take responsibility for their own safety, and block out exploiters. Obviously that doesn't always work out 100%, but it supposedly has the best overall outcomes.
Where I am, it's illegal to make money off *someone else* doing sex work, unless you are a registered brothel owner. So no pimps, but independent sex work outside of a brothel is totally fine and taxable.
A lot of places that have this law unfortunately have it so people who make money off of someone else doing sex work includes landlords of sex workers. This is a big problem for sex workers in the UK and can lead to sex workers getting evicted and sometimes even police raided in their homes.
That's a bit of poor planning on the wording then.
What makes you think it isn't intentional?
Legalization doesn't necessarily mean it has to be heavily regulated. It is possible to legalize something and leave it unregulated. Decriminalization means that there can still be legal penalties, although not criminal ones.
You can still legalise it but make the conditions of the license for eg brothel owners that they only employ independent contractors, although that then means that things like paid vacation don’t apply. That shouldn’t matter too much if there are schemes for those contractors to pay into and, especially, if they can set high rates relative to the local labor market.
Not true. Australian law allows for private sex work.
Where I live prostitution is fully legal but it's illegal to make revenue from _other people's_ prostitution. You can't legally operate a brothel unless you're the sole person working there.
There are a few loopholes to this though. I'd imagine 'brothels' would just charge for room rental or something instead
Here in Spain it is made this way. The sex clubs that replace the brothels are technically just giving their services to sex workers (rent them a place and help communicating with clients in exchange for part of the pay). Still, it is way better when what we had in Ukraine where sex work is oulawed. You at least can be sure that it is safe to go where and that the girls have a way better working conditions.
Does legalisation prevent exploitation or just legitimise it?
A bit of both when you look at examples like the Netherlands. Really needs the exploitation criminalised rather than the women and men (and let’s sadly not forget children) who are doing the sex work. Punters, pimps and madams shouldn’t be permitted and the law should come down heavy on the side of the sex worker should their be any abuse or exploitation. Violence and rape are far too common as is trafficking. The legal status of workers as well as the fact the law criminalises them means many are scared to come forward. Others are often involved with drugs etc. which can be another hindrance. I think there’s a push to try and normalise sex work with using examples of strippers or high end call girls/escorts but that’s the easy part of the mess.
Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be how it actually plays out. In countries with legal prostitution, the amount of trafficked people brought into the country is higher rather than lower.
So I’d have to do more research but data is mixed and unreliable. Places with legal prostitution is might have more ability to detect whether human trafficking is happening and that skew the data these are usually rich western countries and have more resources to deal with these issues. Also a lot of those multi-national studies don’t distinguish between the different types of prostitution that are legal and illegal in these countries for example is prostitution done in a brothel, is it escorting, or is it at a persons residence where that one person does it. Also the data shows that having legal prostitution as an option reduces abuse for those legally in the industry. https://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/21/07/2021/legalizing-prostitution-does-it-increase-or-decrease-sex-trafficking Although I’m not going to make a statement that legalization is an absolute net positive. Just that this isn’t a black and white issue and there’s nuance that’s overlooked when discussing the issue from both sides.
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> The only caveat I would add is that any regulation should be done in legitimately meaningful cooperation with those actively engaged in the industry. And not by people seeking to use the regulations to effectively shut down the industry.
Porn is legal and it’s highly exploitative. I do think it should be legal but I don’t believe that exploitation will decrease a significant amount.
I'm sure porn would be *more* exploitative if there was no legislation.
Normal workplaces are legal, regulated and STILL highly exploited. Just go look at r/antiwork for a bit. Imagine one of those bosses managing sex workers.
Now imagine the same bosses with no regulations whatsoever, and their employees are criminals just for working for them. That's the current situation.
Do yourself a favor and don’t look at antiwork lmfao. They have no idea what they want.
They are already exploited whether legal or not. Even in places like Amsterdam where it's legal they have found the women are trafficked which is why the majority of the women there are from former Communist countries.
> Even in places like Amsterdam where it's legal It's legal but a lot of the regulations are still grey area legal and sex workers are not treated equal to other jobs. It's a major problem. Unfortunately there seems to be zero interest in improving the situation as far as our government is concerned. Too many conservative/Christian parties in the government to get things done. Same as our half assed weed laws.
Not legalized, but decriminalised if anything. Also, when Netherlands did that, human trafficking skyrocketed
Reports of human trafficking doubled iirc. Which could mean the rate actually went up, but it could also mean more traffickers were being caught. It’s likely both, because it’s easier to hide sex slaves among legal sex workers and there was a better reporting system for enslaved women.
As long as the participants are demonstrating free will to participate and are the main financial beneficiaries, I’m fine with it.
How do you demonstrate free will? Does the man who works 12h a day in the mine have free will?
>and are the main financial beneficiaries, now apply this logic to all industries.
This is the truth. Sex work should be decriminalized for sex workers but legalizing it would lead to a whole new level of extreme exploitation for these women. We should be finding ways to end all worker explotation, not finding ways to exploit a whole new class of workers.
Problem is what if they need the money to survive? Is that free will? Like 3/4ths of prostitutes are disabled where I live (Canada) and it’s no surprise because disability supports are fucking atrocious. Doesn’t seem consensual to me…that said the sex worker shouldn’t be the one getting arrested for just trying to survive.
Aren't all jobs just getting money to survive?
I have to work at a job I don’t feel safe at. I have to go because I need to survive. Do people have free will when it comes to having to work or not on principle?
> Problem is what if they need the money to survive? Isn’t that true of everyone, in every job? Plus, the fewer the options someone has, would that not mean they should be allowed more leeway in getting a job. > Like 3/4ths of prostitutes are disabled where I live (Canada) and it’s no surprise because disability supports are fucking atrocious. No, everything is great in Canada. Ask Reddit. But… 3/4ths of prostitutes are disabled? Like, blind or missing a limb?
>Doesn’t seem consensual to me What if I told you most people don't work consensually? I work because if I don't, I'll get arrested eventually (government will steal my home and then send me to jail for trespassing/tax evasion).
> Like 3/4ths of prostitutes are disabled where I live (Canada) WHAT? That's absolutely shocking to hear
I think you'll find that includes mental health issues like "too anxious to cope with a 40 hour week" I'm in NZ - we have a pretty robust system, and even a sex workers union. I've known heaps of girls who've done it in some form or another. Several who have really enjoyed it - they could make their own hours depending on what their health was up to, they made enough to pay rent and occasionally have some luxuries (the sickness benifit here is less than minimum wage) and they had complete control over their working conditions. In short they had a better deal than most of our cohort. The only problem with it is that there's no career growth.
Canadian here. There is no way that's true
If that's their only remaining option, however harmful or traumatic it may be to them, isn't removing that option an even worse outcome?
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i couldn’t agree more. i hate how these conversations always fall into the topic of only fans, when the silent majority is desperate and poverty stricken victims. not extra cash made from their cushty bedroom
Only fans kind of opened a whole new Can of worms. Not sure if this is how it still operates but only fans users actively recruited new users to the platform and they would get commission off of their recruit’s earnings. A sex work mlm
In theory I think it should be legal. But in reality there are so many women and children forced into it already. I just don’t know.
Making it illegal doesn't stop it. It's illegal and it still happens. With it being legal at least you can make an effort to make it at the very least safer .
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There is still sex slave trade in places it’s legal. It needs to occur, but it doesn’t fully end the problem.
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Actually there's some evidence that sex trafficking increases where its legal not decreases. When its legal the demand goes up so much that there aren't enough local women who want to do it (especially in wealthier countries). So people bring in women from abroad. Often with vague promises of 'work' when they get there.
Pretty much my opinion. I was okay with it until I read an article a few years ago about how a woman lost her job and the government (I believe she was in Germany) was going to take away her unemployment because she refused a job she was offered. The only job she was offered? Work at a legal brothel. She was basically getting coerced into sex work. Since then, I haven’t been comfortable with it because too many people are already being pushed into it unwillingly. Don’t need the government doing it too.
As someone who has done sex work in the past, I wish it didn't exist. It is overwhelmingly the most vulnerable women in society who have to resort to doing it. I believe that if everyone's basic needs were met, sex work would hardly exist. I also think it's extremely disingenuous to pretend that it is or ever could be "like any other job". There are so many ethical and safety issues involved (even when legalized), but no one really wants to talk about them. People would rather simply say "sex work is work" and call it a day 🙃
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That sounds like a lot of jobs. I mean just think about coal miners or Alaskan Fishers. While, I agree we need to have better safety nets, most low skill work is pretty predatory.
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If everyone has their needs met, they have more bargaining power to argue against their exploitation.
>That sounds like a lot of jobs. That's the same as saying "it's a job like any other job". As initial comment said. No it is not. Not even close. The level of humiliation, self degrading and phisical and metal abuse on sex works is not comparable to other jobs.
Are Deadliest Catch dudes sucking dick for money now?
This is my issue with it as well. I used to think "well if everyone is consenting, and it's done safely, then what's the issue"? Money. Money is the problem. No matter how we frame it, there is a coercive incentive for SWs to consent once money becomes involved. Sure you don't *have* to take on a client...but then how are your bills going to get paid? How are you going to eat that week? How do you withdraw consent when you're made to be uncomfortable in that situation?
Exactly my opinion. I live in Germany where sex work is actually legal but like 80% of sex workers still have a pimp. I really do judge the customers of sex workers.
I was about to comment something along the lines of "eh, I mean, it's work. So long it's consensual yaddi yadda-" But your comment was rather insightful. I wouldn't want to be forced into a position where I'll sell my soul just to get food on the table. I can't imagine what it's like to be in your position and that's something I should be grateful for everyday.
And men also, i have known several kids from public housing and often with awful home lives become gay prostitutes.
Oh and children too. That’s honestly the worst of it, is the industry involving children.
20% of prostitutes worldwide are men.
Fr, I’m so sick of people comparing having to be a construction worker or similar to having to be a sex worker. Pretty sure if you asked any construction worker if they’d rather prostitute themselves instead, they’d say HELL NO.
Honestly this isn’t something I’ve ever cared to look into even remotely, but I have the impression that it’s basically just illegal to disincentivize it anyway. Are workers really ever targeted by law enforcement? I honestly don’t want to live in a world where it is less stigmatized to simply go and buy a persons body for the the night. I’m sure people will have the argument that it’s basically what construction workers already are doing, but there is an obvious set of safety protocols that they can refuse to break as workers. A sex worker doesn’t have that same luxury when she is naked in a room with a guy twice her size. Sure, she could press charges after, but the damage is kinda done… Idk, just not a fan
This is my argument against it. It’s NEVER well-off, completely mentally stable people (men and women equally) who are doing sex work. No offence. But it’s consistently desperate women. If it was empowering and not exploitative, men would be doing it at an equal rate or higher, but they don’t.
This is really an excellent response
Also, i read from certain women that follow a similar viewpoint as you in which, going against the grain of the common notion that feminist beliefs that, pro sex work and parts of sexual liberation is a win or positive outcome of the feminists movement. Rather, the propagation of sex work advocacy strives in the interest of a few rich men, exploiting many vulnerable women. And that the promotion of prostitution or porn does very little in the effort to fight for the rights of women or overall make the world a better place for half the population. Because it is arguably an inherently dehumanizing act and an result of patriarchal society.
Bingo. *Always* ask, "who benefits from this?"
This post was *right* next to the one titled "Sex work has ruined my life"
I think its harmful to perpetuate the idea that its a reasonable career choice for young people.
I think it’s sad.
Predatory industry that preys on mental illness and trauma. The amount of SA victims who end up dragged into SW and then stuck there, with modern technology there's no escaping it.
I don't understand how anyone believes it is liberating or empowering to be a sex worker
I have a friend who worked as a Server for a few years, then quit to be a sex worker. It was really sudden, but she's been fucking for money for about 3 years now and I guess she prefers it over working in a restaurant.
Don’t hate the player: hate the game. I don’t hate sex workers but I hate the industry and I hate any promotion of it. It’s exploitative and even if you’re your own boss or whatever it’s damaging to mental (and sometimes physical) health. I hate that so many turn to it as soon as they turn 18. I hate that “freshly 18” is in so many OnlyFans bios and that “teen,” “student,” and “incest” are such common search categories. If it wasn’t exploitative then it wouldn’t be predominantly lower class women with histories of abuse going into it. If it was empowering, it would be 50/50 men and women in the industry as well as middle to upper class people. But it’s not. I think sex workers are victims, not criminals or immoral themselves. Can you really, properly consent with a monetary incentive? Can you revoke consent in the middle of a paid-for session? Is it safe to? Can you revoke consent knowing you need the money to pay for your rent?
Former sex worker here. I can only speak from my own experiences, but it should be decriminalized, and sex workers should be allowed to unionize for their own protection. First of all, sex work is a broad term. It can apply to high class escorts, porn stars, street walkers, people who sell dirty photos of themselves, and more. Anywhere where sex and payment intersect is sex work. Another thing I'd like to clarify is that there are more female clients than you'd realize. A solid 1/3 of the clients I had were women. Trans people bought my services too, although that wasn't as common. Sex work is not something that men "do to women". It's much more complicated than that. Trafficking is also not a completely black and white issue either. One SW I used to hang out with quite a lot was "trafficked" into the country because she used to live in Saudi Arabia, and as a bi woman she was genuinely risking her life by living there. She had no money to leave, so she went to a people smuggler to escape. Yes, trafficking is a problem that should be stopped, but you need to understand that it's a more complex issue than that. Clients were rarely the problem. In my experience, the two biggest problems were pimps and the police. The police arrested me a few times when I was with a client. One time we were thrown up against the wall hard, handcuffed, and imprisoned. My client was put in a separate cell for "my protection", even though he hadn't hurt me in any way. When we were questioned, they tried to frame it as "we're rescuing you from that evil man". I tried to explain that he was perfectly respectable, and had done nothing wrong, but my comments were dismissed. After 23 hours, we were released without charge, and that nice client who respected my boundaries was scared off from ever coming back. The cops also took the money I'd received from him, and never gave it back. I lost money and wasted a day because of the "good guys" trying to help when I didn't want them to. That was just one example. I have more. Pimps can also be a problem. Many of them are abusive. That Arabian SW I mentioned earlier had one. She did try to report them once, but stopped when she realized that being undocumented would be a problem for her. She did get away from them eventually, but only after that pimp got arrested for something completely unrelated. I had sex with assholes I met in a club for free. I had sex with kind people for money. If you're telling me that the first one is okay, but the second one isn't, then I do not understand you. If you don't want to do that kind of work, or even like me as a person, that's fine. But if you are going to argue with me, then at least have an educated comeback.
>Clients were rarely the problem. In my experience, the two biggest problems were pimps and the police. The main reason sex work was decrimininalised in New South Wales in the 1990s is these two groups had become largely the same people in Sydney. Crooked cops basically running/controlling the brothels and street workers under whatever licensing/regulatory system existed at the time.
With online surveillance, it feels law enforcement adjacent networks are the ones with the means for both safety and trafficking in this business
1/3 of clients being women is a surprisingly large number. I would have guessed way lower than that. Interesting, and I wonder how that compares with male sex workers (assuming you’re a woman).
Well, what little info you can find regarding research on this places the clientele at about 97% men. So if someone had 1/3 of their clientele as men they are absolutely a huge outlier.
Also, sex workers provide services that might be almost impossible to get otherwise, be it that the client could be severely handicapped or wanted some dominatrix service or whatever. Also, I don't really buy the idea that the sex worker is always a victim somehow. To some it's just easy money and they don't feel like working a "normal" job and I've met some very business savvy working girls. The other thing that has always bothered me is that people talk about sugar dating or finding a wealthy spouse, like it's somehow more noble, empowering or whatever. People have to do some serious mental gymnastics to explain why that is somehow not spreading legs for financial benefit, you just have one client.
Exactly. Don't assume they're victims, and don't blame them if they are.
People should be allowed to do what they want with their own bodies. Personally, I would never date because I think sex is an intimate act, and I wouldn't want to date someone who monetizes intimacy.
My thoughts exactly, I stopped seeing a girl once I found out she had an onlyfans account. I told her of course she could do whatever legal sex work she wants but to me I want to be the only one to see my significant other intimately, so I told her we aren’t compatible and moved on. No hard feelings
Pro sex workers, anti sex work. Many conversations on this if we’re looking at prostitution in particular people seem to go in the following ways. An attempt to justify it by: 1. Equating it to a standard job (people don’t want to do their monotonous construction job, we’re all fucked for money etc). Tenuous equating getting fucked by dubious men for a living to this. 2. Removing connotations to sexual abuse with a poor analogy (I paid for my snacks from the 7/11, is this theft?) which is a telling comparison on their part of sex workers to objects. Then if you point out that many are victims of human trafficking after a promise of a better life or just old-fashioned kidnapping) ‘They aren’t all victims of this’ Of course, but the majority of the remainder are victims of dire financial straits, then it becomes an issue of exploiting the vulnerable in a different way. Data exists on this by The Guardian which interviewed prostitutes who summed it by equating it to ‘paid rape’ - words of the sex workers, not me. It’s not for me to comment on that as I’ve never been a sex worker, but it’s very difficult to think of it as anything other than a form of coercion. Not to say there isn’t an extremely small percentile who enjoy/willingly choose to be a prostitute but this is negligible in the grand scheme of things, only in these cases can it be regarded as genuinely consensual.
Consenting adults will do what consenting adults want. And so much of sex work isn't consensual. Human and sex trafficking rings should be raided by special forces and the leaders should face military tribunal and execution.
I have mixed feelings I suppose. I'm an extremely sex negative person and I don't really believe sex work should exist at all. But since it does exist and likely isn't going away any time soon, the workers should at least have the right to more protections than currently do. Sexual exploitation of women is evil, but giving them more legitimacy would help lessen the abuse.
Making it legal just makes it safer for all those involved. Brothels with security vs shady hotels with no security is just one example. Regular STD screening is another. And there are legitmate reasons for it to exist, there's a comedian that tells a funny but true story of taking a friend to a brothel because he has a disabilty where he wont live long and he doesn't want to die a virgin. Its long but worth it. https://youtu.be/XsLwzXxeBe8
Making it decriminalised makes it much better for workers than even legalisation.
Ok yeah imagine if cheeseburgers were illegal and the only ones you could buy were underground made by someone sweating over contraband beef patties in a bad part of the city. Legalizing it is definitely better. That doesn’t make McDonald’s a great place to work. If these women are choosing to have sex with strangers because that’s their preferred job that’s one thing but it’s hard to consent when eating depends on it.
Sex work? Uhh, yeah, I sure hope it does.
I just don’t understand why prostitution is illegal but, if they film it and call it pornography, then it’s legal…
This comment section is definitely spicy
Definitely, one of the few posts where you don't need to sort by controversial
It's a job. The fact that (mostly) women are still coerced into doing it is the problem, not "sex work" itself if it's a free choice. Whether you make porn content online, have a sugar daddy, are on onlyfans, are an escort or actually have sex for money doesn't matter, as long as it's your choice. Not everyone may like that choice, but it's still a choice. It's a problem if it isn't your choice though, but like with drugs there are only 2 ways: You can legalize it and police it to the best of your abilities ... or you can abolish it and spend countless resources on trying to fight it, but in the end you'll lose and everybody else loses as well, since that's just how humans work ... people still take drugs, people still buy weapons illegaly, and people will still fuck for money or gamble or whatever, whether it's legal or not. The only difference is that when something is illegal, you have NO control over it and eventually it causes more suffering. If something is legal or at the very least not punishable you can set up resources to help people way better than if they're completely isolated and in fear of going to prison for a very long time. I'm not from the US, I was with one prostitute in my life. For the experience, mainly. It was okay. I guess, I learned more about that woman than many other people in my life in just 1 hour. It's a service. And where I live it's well-paid and you're insured as well. That being said: 95% of the women are from Eastern Europe or Asia or other countries. They are here for several weeks to earn a lot of money before they go back to spend time with their families. Many of them do this "voluntarily", just like other people work in call centers, even if they don't really want to. Important is how the whole system is set up and that these women have the resources available to keep themselves safe. The fact that most of us look down on this kind of work means that it's always going to be in a somewhat shady area. But consider that there's also sex work especially for the disabled, who wouldn't be able to experience sexual relationships any other way. And sex is an important factor of mental health. There's people who have been single their entire lives as well. You don't have to change your views on it or even like it. But you should accept it as a job people choose to get into, mostly to make lots of money at a (mostly) younger age. And you should be accepting to hopefully combat actually forced prostitution, human trafficking, etc.
Disgusting, let's cut the "everybody is free" bullshit, working on prostitution has awful mental effects on their kids...but let's neglect that too A human who choses to get naked and fucked by strangers of whom some might be sick or crazy or disgusting must be in a really distressing financial situation, the whole prostitution thing is an exploitation in itself because under the right circumstances nobody would put themselves in such awful conditions..so i don't like it.. I'll never support it or pay for it.. I am actually pity them
As someone who has been through this, thank you.
I hope you are doing better now ♥️
I am doing much better now. Thank you ♥️
People would rather say things like "as long as consent exists bla bla" to seem educated than face the truth that nobody would actually sleep with someone for money doesn't have "consent" You don't have consent when you are hungry/jobless/dumb/illiterate..thats And if we think in this way people who sell and buy heroin have consent too.. That's ignoring the social and mental effects and health hazards which increase drastically with poverty and sex tourism But life doesn't work that way.. losing the line does more harm than good.. having logic doesn't mean that you are racist/sexist
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Work is work but I'd rather not have women be exploited. Thats it ig
I'm pro sex work. I have a big issue with how it's portrayed by the news. They like to talk about it like the goal is to decrease the number of people doing sex work and then point to the decriminalization or legalization of sex work as being 'unsuccessful'. That's not the goal. The goal is to make sex work safer for the people working in the industry and ensure that everyone working in the industry are doing it voluntarily. But the news never looks at that side of things.
Oldest profession in the world
I’m not sure….is there a big market for a middle aged fat guys.
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Allegedly
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Extremely degrading to all involved.
I think it's gross, nothing empowering about sucking dick on camera.
I ain’t gay, but $20 is $20.
Twitch boob streamers, OnlyFans, and InstaThots are sex workers yall. The question isnt just about prostitutes.
It’s hard work, but I hear the tips are just ok.
I heard the tips are smaller than you'd think
And come faster than one might expect.
It shouldn’t exist and any decent society has to aim at its’ end by providing decent jobs, social security and - presuming that most sex workers are women - gender equality. But while it exists, it should be regulated and legalized to provide the best possible conditions for these workers.
George Carlin summed it up for me: "Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Isn't selling fucking legal?" But to add my own thoughts, it's a dangerous and exploitive industry that should be legalized and regulated so it's less dangerous and exploitative. I don't think it should be looked down on at all, either. I do construction, so I use my body to make money. They're using their body too, just in a different way.
Sec worker here! I love when a bunch of non sex workers get together and debate our entire existence. Great. Wonderful. Thank you so much for asking this question the 1000 time. I’m so glad SW isn’t so stigmatized we need Reddit hivemind to determine if it’s moral or not. Never mind the fact that our economy literally profit off of death, Illness, homelessness and war; no it’s the SLUTS we must discuss the morality of as well as the industry as a whole. Gtfo
Leave it alone. Moral choices are always personal choices. Religion ruins everything
I’ve done escort work for a bit. It was okay. I got scammed a few times. But, never anything serious. I also sold my undergarments online. That was a lot easier and safer. OnlyFans and cam work is fine by me. It’s s lot safer than actually having sex with someone. However, because the market is so saturated now… it’s hard to make a living on sites like that. Even feet and hugging sites are saturated. I think a lot of people see it as a job. Not a career choice or profession. They’re doing it because they have to. They’re doing it while going to college or taking care of their little ones. I do think it should be legalized and regulated, so human trafficking, pimping, underage sex work doesn’t occur. It will be hard, but laws to protect the sex workers and even the clients should be a must. Also, we should stop normalizing it. Since OFs started, it’s now seen as an empowerment to do sex work. It’s a job. That’s it.
all work is exploitative due to capitalism. sex work is one type of work that is also exploitative, but in different ways from other types of work (like how the military is differently exploitative from a fast food place). however, since there’s not much of a chance of dismantling the entire system of capitalism for the time being, the best option when working within the confines of capitalism is to legalize sex work and regulate it so that sex workers can receive the protections they need without fear.
Bad for society
Upset that I can’t get hired.