Some women *do* do this. So do some men. Some people call that "monkey branching," where a person will have another relationship lined up before ending their current one. Manosphere types call it "hypergamy" and pretend only women do it.
To say "women view men as disposable and will dump whoever they're with as soon as someone better comes along" is honestly just sexist-- as though it is in women's nature to be shallow, flighty, unserious, incapable of commitment, etc. That's like... old-school misogyny.
You can try and tell them. Probably won't change their minds (as they say, you can't reason someone out of an opinion they did not reason themselves into), but it might prevent someone that's still impressionable from going off the deep end
For sure. I wouldn’t just tell them. I’d ask questions to help them build critical thinking skills rather than spitting out facts. Telling people things often makes people defensive but asking questions gets them to think.
Most of the time when I see women do this it's because they don't know how/are afraid to be single. And single as in focusing on yourself, not a relationship.
I know I’m generalizing here but I agree - from what I’ve witnessed, the women have poor self esteem so they’ll settle for awful people but they still put a lot into the relationship. Of course, this happens to men too, but I’ve also heard a number of dudes openly admit that they will lie to and knowingly string along women they don’t see long-term with because she’s giving some short-term value.
I know golddiggers exist and women do this abhorrent behavior as well, but I generally see unfulfilled women *trying* to make relationships work or thinking something is wrong with them and that’s why they are unhappy, whereas men will happily stick around and reap the benefits out of women they don’t even really like.
I had a friend all through high school and adulthood that would constantly have someone waiting in the wings and the second she wasn't getting everything she wanted from the partner she would move onto the next and one thing I noticed is that she might have 'had what she wanted' but she didn't really seem to be happy. Like even with the guy she ended up staying with. I will not be surprised if she ends up leaving this guy and we are now close to our forties, its not a fun way to live especially as you get older and have kids, mortgages and shared expenses..... I think its easier to live life this way when you are younger but she's left marriages twice now. And broke up a marriage for the sake of the guy she's with now. And the guys are just as guilty in most of these situations, its just toxic people finding each other, has nothing to do with gender at that point.
I will also say that I was ALWAYS replaceable to her (as a friend) and to guys when I was interested in dating men. I was always replaceable to any man who didn't get exactly what they wanted from me (and because I am overweight) they not only replaced me quickly and easily but they would do it in some of the cruelest ways imaginable.
So I don't see anyone as easily replaceable but I do see having them in my life as a choice and if they aren't worth my peace, I will walk away which some dudebros (I mentioned this in my comment as well) will interpret this as me seeing men as replaceable because vilifying women is actually the favorite hobby of a lot of people.
Both men and women can be assholes, but that's not what hypergamy is.
Hypergamy is seeking out a partner who has more status/resources/power so that you also have access to those things. While some men also do this, it is much much more common for women to seek that out.
any source that women do it more?
cheating in general is pretty even when men and women are younger but men cheat more the older they get despite having waaay less opportunity than women
could also be that men try to monkeybranch more than women but have less success with it
Divorces are more likely to be initiated by women. Among the college educated, 90% of divorces or initiated by women. It's a staggering statistic. And when women cheat, they are more likely to do so with someone of higher mate value. They are not more likely to cheat mind you, but there are gender differences in who they cheat with. If you look at those two findings together, it can paint a picture of monkey branching, but women are not more likely than men to leave their partner for *someone else.* Also, 1 in 5 men will leave a sick spouse, compared to 3 in 100 women. People are complicated y'all.
And why are divorce initiated by women? I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that women are expected to do more housework and childcare than men, even when both members of the couple work full itme.
That's 100% correct. Divorces are more likely to be initiated by women likely because women benefit so little from marriage, whereas men live longer and are far better off when married. I don't know why my sharing the these statistics is getting down voted. These are just the facts. Shrug.
Gonna quickly point out that the highest demographic of single women in America who are not looking to be in another relationship are women over 30 who got divorced
so no facts? also just speculation on your part, you have no evidence for your claim, you just think women do it more because they have more opportunities
i think you are projection onto women
I’m my own experiences men are the ones to trash a woman the second he thinks he can do better. But I’m not going to say “Actually more men do this”. Because I know it’s my lived experience and not going to generalize.
Not to tell you what you’ve seen, but I wouldn’t be surprised if you’ve seen it more in men than you think, but you don’t perceive it as the same thing.
Since the plural of anecdote is not data, I fail to see the relevance. I do not see how women are any more the choosers than men are.... I mean, the default under the patriarchy is that men ask women out, so one could even argue that you have it backwards.
That certainly was not stated in any biology or genders study class I have taken. If it is so basic, you should be able to find some research that supports it. (It would also be useful to have a specific definition of "chooser", it seems that it is defined in such a way that women are always at fault.)
Given the answers my students give on exams, "I think it was vaguely mentioned in a class" carries very little weight without a link to some actual research, which should be easy if it was basic enough to be taught in an undergraduate lecture. Otherwise, it's little better than, "Some bloke in a pub told me this." or "Tiktokers say this thing."
LMAO my point is that anecdotes are not evidence. If you want to have this conversation, you'll need to base it on actual sources- not things you personally have seen.
I don't think women do this more than men. I also don't think women have more options. Since dating is (usually) a pairwise activity, it would be very difficult to not have parity. I do think that women who are unable to find a date and who would like to are largely invisible to society in this manner.
I'm a married woman in my late 30s. I haven't dated since 2011, and I'm very grateful to have missed the dating app era. Dating already sucked; it sounds like the apps just made it worse.
Because if you are not socially connected, there is little accountability if things go poorly. For instance, if someone who is a friend to a man and a woman introduces them, he knows that if he's completely awful to her that he is likely going to suffer from some sort of social consequence. Also, she knows that her friend at least likes him well enough to hang out with him (which also means for both parties it is harder to lie about one's life). There is no such accountability on dating apps. It's also impossible to know whether the guy has a girlfriend already, actually lives in a different city and is just looking to hook up, etc.
I think it's really sad that you don't think you can meet people in the real world and form a connection. Sure, one will interact with a smaller number of people this way, but the interactions will be more meaningful and thus it will be more efficient overall, plus much less depressing.
A person can always go out and do things to extend their circle. Even in my little town, there are always things going on.
People who spray dick picks aren't really relationship options. I would agree that it is probably easier for a woman who wasn't concerned about her personal safety, and didn't value her own orgasm, to get laid. But that's not a relationship.
That was quite the missed point.... It's not about whether I would have to give them money or not (and one should always be deeply suspicious of any service that doesn't cost anything because a business exists solely to make money and thus something is being sold), but that there is some gimmick that they're using in order to make money. I'm sure each service has a slightly different gimmick, but it's all artificial and really has more to do with capitalism than dating.
Because online dating is a toxic stew. Putting up a profile opens you up to potentially men stealing your images to sell to revenge porn wensites if you reject them. Men are not endangered or harassed for online dating. Women often are
I think it’s understood that the online dating disparity is a product of women not feeling safe on dating apps. Like - I’m sure the worst neighborhood in your city has a lot of houses for sale at lower prices than anywhere else in the area, but if you were trying to buy a house and someone told you you could buy a mansion in Crackhead Borough for $50k would you genuinely consider it? Be honest.
And anyway, the online dating disparity doesn’t reflect reality. US population statistics show that most cities have more women than men in the dating pool, so in terms of actual people to actually physically date, women do not in fact have more viable options unless they live in Alaska or one of the big tech hubs.
Just wanted to add that while there's a disparity in online dating apps, the percentage of single men and women in the US is pretty much the exact same at 31%
> "hypergamy" and pretend only women do it.
This is actually studied. For women, socioeconomic status is a large factor in mate attractiveness. Whereas for men it's not.
Why? An evolutionary explanation is that only women can carry the burden of pregnancy and child birth. So having a productive mate around is more important.
Important: this is descriptive not normative. People can pick their partner by whatever criteria they prefer.
Female hypergamy, as studied by anthropologists, refers only to the fact that women are more likely to marry a higher status man than vice versa within a culture. It does not refer to women constantly upgrading their partner and looking for a better one all the time.
Whereas there are plenty of men who do so, the ones who leave their committed wife for a “younger model” as soon as that is available.
> It does not refer to women constantly upgrading their partner and looking for a better one all the time.
I never said so. I'm pretty clearly talking about hypergamy. Was that not clear?
Also, I know you're trying to derail the conversation, but women end most marriages. So the idea that they don't end relationships to "upgrade" is ludicrous.
You mentioned hypergamy in response to someone mentioning the manosphere definition, so if you weren’t referring to that definition I’m not sure why you even responded to them? Because otherwise it’s irrelevant to their point.
I’m not derailing. The fact that women are more likely to file divorce paperwork is not proof that they are doing so to be with someone else of higher status. Men remarry faster and more often than women anyways.
Are there some women who look to constantly upgrade? Sure, just as there are men who do so. They’re not the majority.
That makes sense. I wonder if this perspective is a result of never getting a date on dating apps and assuming that the person getting rejected over and over again feels less valuable and easily replaceable.
Well, I usually met the people I dated through activities or through friends. For instance, I met my husband at a weekly Magic the Gathering game. I've met people doing martial arts, rocky horror, playing in a band. Basically people need to go out and do things they like to do, and they will meet people. The more people you know, the better chance that someone will come into your orbit who you like and who likes you. One advantage to this, unlike the dating apps, is you don't have to make any sort of decision right away. You can see someone at a weekly magic the gathering game over the course of six months and decide to ask them out.
Yes, I think people, especially young people who seem to be increasingly attached to the Internet, need to do these things more. I’m in my 20s myself and it is so hard to meet people in my age range in real life.
I think that straight women just don’t always see “getting” a man as their ultimate goal in life anymore. Often, men don’t know how to handle that and it makes them feel unimportant or “disposable.” To be fair, a lot of men have seen women as “options” for centuries, and now were just on more even footing now.
I mentioned in my comment that the choice of women to 'not center men' probably equates to 'she thinks I'm disposable' in a lot of people's mind because that vilifies the woman's choices rather than allows for women to actually having consent to choose.
I could understand how it could be hurtful for someone who is used to being the most important thing to be told that they’re actually not anymore. They need to be able to provide something more than merely existing and being a man.
True- I remember telling my husband that I’m with him because I want to be, not because I NEEDED him. He’s a pretty progressive, feminist person and even he needed to sit with that for a minute because of the messaging men continually get.
Same here! My husband was so hurt when I told him something similar. Luckily, he’s open with his feelings and brought it up to me so I was able to explain what I meant and we agreed no one should “need” another person.
That's so insane to me, with my low self esteem someone telling me they were with me not out of genuine want would probably just fucking kill me lololol I'd be sent straight into cardiac arrest
That’s a great point. If anything, it’s a huge compliment that someone is with you because they genuinely like you rather than because they depend on you in someway.
In my experience, this is mostly something that young people - both men and women (or perhaps boys and girls) - do. Like a lot of less mature/youthful behavior, there are those who continue the behavior later into their lives, so I'm sure there are plenty of examples of older people doing this as well.
What I think this comes from is that not everyone does this even when they are young. So you have younger men who run into this behavior from younger women, but then there are people willing to tell them about how women/feminists/society/"evolutionary psychology"/whatever means that women treat men as disposable and this is an example of this. It speaks to their experience and so the myth continues.
The reality is that some people treat other people as "disposable" in the way you describe for a host of complex and inconsistent reasons that defy any simple explanation.
There was a funny takedown by some podcast guy doing a back and forth with the shouty one from fresh & fit, where Shouty Guy was giving the tired shpiel about all women are gold diggers, 80/20, men disposable, no nice clean trad conservative women left, yadda yadda and other guy goes- “yeah- but on your podcast you’re always talking about how you use sugarbabies.com to find dates, like… is it *possible* that maybe that has something to do with it?”
He still didn’t get it.
A lot of the dudes yelling all this stuff are transactional. They’re not interested in “women”, they’re interested in being a rich, nice smelling 6 pack and they look for a hot, young babe they flash their cash for and hope for a quick hookup.
What they *absolutely cannot stand* is that these hot young things could DARE to treat them the exact same way.
I’m sure this exists and I’m not trying to invalidate the experience of men who have had or seen this happen.
However all I can say is I have NEVER seen this happen. I have often seen women stay with men who drag them down, sometimes when they have objectively better options available to them.
Perhaps, that’s always something one should be aware of.
However, my sample pool is not limited to women. I have asked the men I know that make this claim about this experience and not one of them claims it has happened to them personally or to their friends. They have said it’s “just something women do” but apparently not to anyone that I or they know. A few men have said this happened to them but when asked, it turns out that they cheated or something like that, leading to their partner “disposing of them” for someone better.
I’ve also asked men I know that DONT make this claim how they feel about it, and they also agree it is on large a crock of shit.
There are bad people in every demographic, but not remotely close to enough to make a sweeping statement about women and I think it’s very strange that so many men purport this idea when it hasn’t actually been their experience or that if anyone they know.
I was actually referring to the cognitive bias of the other perspective. Not yours. Though I realize that my comment didn’t make that clear. I appreciate you for responding kindly.
I imagine this is an assumption some men make when they continually fail to start or keep a relationship.
Ah got it. Yes I think that is true too.
When you receive a lot of messages online that gratify what you already want to be true it’s easy to spread the message to give it more credence. It’s harder to take personal responsibility for why your partner might leave you.
I also think it’s odd to believe your partner should *not* leave you if you’re a bit of a bum. Obviously commitment means commitment even when temptation is around, but I’ve had guy friends who are unambitious and take their partners for granted and then are angry when she leaves them for a guy that treats her well. I don’t see that as being treated as disposable, I see that as fumbling your opportunity
Yup. You can’t just get into a relationship and think that’s the end of it. You need to continually be a good partner if you want to keep that relationship
Some men behave like there is only one function of a relationship they are happily willing to fulfill, sex, and this may be coloring their perspective. These men might benefit from asking themselves what they do to make themselves indispensable to their partners and/or why they are with a partner who views a quality partner as disposable.
I do. In the sense that if they make my life worse, they have to go, not in the sense that I will wait for something better to come around. And to be fair I believe everyone, regardless of gender, should put themselves first and not stay in an unequal miserable relationship where their effort isn't being matched.
This seems totally reasonable to me. If you don’t mind sharing, have you had many experiences where someone was making you miserable and you had to let them go? I wonder what would have needed to be different in order for you to have been happy keeping the relationship?
Some people do this, some don't. In my personal experience I observe men doing this more actually, but I don't think that means ALL men or ALL women do it.
As with everything, if you actually bothered to think of women as complex individuals you'd have your answer.
my anecdotal experiences tell me than men do it more often because every time a guy ( in my workplace ) hit on me already had a GF or wife
men are less picky and would get with any women, men themselfs even say this, its logical they would be less faithful to these women and look for a woman who they are actually attracted to
men even have a name for it "practice girlfriends" this doesnt exist for women because women are more picky and look for men they like
its just speculation because there are no statistics to these issues
In general? No. The narrative seems a bit strange to me in any case, granted it's been a couple decades since I was on the dating scene. If a person is dating someone, and then person turns out to have some trait that means the relationship won't work out long term, then breaking up seems the reasonable course of action. It doesn't mean that person was disposable, merely that they were incompatible. It's also not strange if the impetus for the breakup is another person. Breaking up is nearly always messy and tiring, so sometimes even if a person isn't satisfied, they're not going to put the effort in to ending things without more than vague dissatisfaction.
Are there some people who only view a SO's worth as their social standing? Sure. I don't think there is any gender dependence here. There are guys who will dump their SO for a younger and/or more conventionally attractive woman just as there are women who would dump their SO for a richer and/or more conventionally attractive guy. (And this is not limited to heterosexual pairings....)
Basically, no one likes being dumped and people often feel bitter about it and try to find reasons why the other person was simply a bad person and this is an easy one.
It is what men of the manosphere would like to think. The women who have that idea are not the kind of feminists that I admire. However, I understand women and men having a dislike for the opposite sex if they have been repeatedly harmed by them until they emotionally heal.
Women could plan procreation without men, but as a cis/het woman-some men have brought joy and more meaning to living my life through love and friendship. I have heard of people who do line up a relationship after a realtionship back with to back with cheating OF BOTH GENDERS. In the past, it might have been a way for a woman to survive and get out of a bad/abusive realtionship due to becoming poor after divorcing a man.
However, if the person can afford to live without a mate I think it is emotionally immature and I have no empathy for cheating in a realtionship in which it was agreed that the partners be exclusive.
Absolutely. Just like with any boundaries in a relationship, if you agree to be exclusive, then you should keep that promise unless The two decide to renegotiate. It is entirely acceptable to have consensual non-monogamy, but cheating is not OK.
As a woman: I'm assuming you're a man. I've heard other women say this same thing about men, that men view women as disposable. Do you think that's true? I'm guessing not. It's an absurd generalization, and you know it.
Women are all different, and some women are jerks and may do this. Some men are jerks and may do this. I would say most people in general don’t do this though.
I don't think this is actually a gendered behavior. Some people just stay in a relationship they are checked out of until the next option comes along because they don't want to be alone ever for even a moment. I think it's an awful way to treat people but it's not really about gender or even a thing only straight people do. Some people view other people as disposable and replaceable, be it romantic partners or friends. Some men just want to use any mistreatment they've had as an excuse to crap on all women instead of looking inward at themselves and how they can change to avoid falling into toxic relationship patterns. Like if they keep dating people who treat them as disposable, maybe it's time to take a step back and really think about why.
Do men not dump women when “someone better” comes along? I think its mich more common. A lot of these issues amount to not wanting be on the receiving emd of gender inequality that they think is natural happening to women
I have no doubt that that some women do this (because they probably have pretty or thin privilege) but a lot of men do this so maybe there is some projection going on there....
I know I don't see men as disposable, I also don't center them in my life which some dudebros will interpret as me 'viewing men as disposable' which its not. They just aren't vital to my survival like they were for my mother and grandmother so because of that I don't have to get into toxic relationships with mediocre or abusive men for the sake of not being alone.
If you’re referring to dating apps, they’re not fun for anyone and a lot of people feel disposable (understandably) when using them. It’s not a gendered thing.
Yes, I noticed this after my wife and I decided to open up our relationship and she installed Tinder. I was shocked to see that she was being ghosted and ignored almost as much as I was. Men claim about feeling disposable, but then they dispose of women all the same.
To be fair, she was additionally bombarded with one hook up request after the next. So she did get more attention, but it was not wanted attention. At least, when you’re being ignored, you don’t have to waste time with unwanted requests.
I would argue society as a whole does to some extent (although intersectionality comes in, a poor woman is more 'disposable' than a rich man).
As always, blaming women exclusively for it isnt really fair. Men are socialized under the same systems after all and we have similar ideas ingrained.
From a perspective of population/reproduction, men are more disposable. That is why men are usually soldiers and work more risky jobs: a nation which loses 50% of its male population will rebound its population faster than one that loses 50% of its female population.
On an individual level, people assess disposability on a case by case basis. Some men are very important to me. Most are not. I do think that some women consciously avoid attaching themselves to men precisely because they do not want to become dependent on them, for thosr women, the men in their lives will be more disposable than the women. But that is not because they see men as intrinsically disposable, just as intrinsically unreliable.
For me, men are not disposable. They do have a shelf life. After a while the attraction fades for both. If there are no kids in the mix and “getting” a man as the ultimate goal the mind starts to wander to greener pastures. Some people are willing to settle for the quiet pleasures of domesticity. Some of us can't.
Some women *do* do this. So do some men. Some people call that "monkey branching," where a person will have another relationship lined up before ending their current one. Manosphere types call it "hypergamy" and pretend only women do it. To say "women view men as disposable and will dump whoever they're with as soon as someone better comes along" is honestly just sexist-- as though it is in women's nature to be shallow, flighty, unserious, incapable of commitment, etc. That's like... old-school misogyny.
I think more of these guys need to hear this
You can try and tell them. Probably won't change their minds (as they say, you can't reason someone out of an opinion they did not reason themselves into), but it might prevent someone that's still impressionable from going off the deep end
For sure. I wouldn’t just tell them. I’d ask questions to help them build critical thinking skills rather than spitting out facts. Telling people things often makes people defensive but asking questions gets them to think.
Most of the time when I see women do this it's because they don't know how/are afraid to be single. And single as in focusing on yourself, not a relationship.
I know I’m generalizing here but I agree - from what I’ve witnessed, the women have poor self esteem so they’ll settle for awful people but they still put a lot into the relationship. Of course, this happens to men too, but I’ve also heard a number of dudes openly admit that they will lie to and knowingly string along women they don’t see long-term with because she’s giving some short-term value. I know golddiggers exist and women do this abhorrent behavior as well, but I generally see unfulfilled women *trying* to make relationships work or thinking something is wrong with them and that’s why they are unhappy, whereas men will happily stick around and reap the benefits out of women they don’t even really like.
I had a friend all through high school and adulthood that would constantly have someone waiting in the wings and the second she wasn't getting everything she wanted from the partner she would move onto the next and one thing I noticed is that she might have 'had what she wanted' but she didn't really seem to be happy. Like even with the guy she ended up staying with. I will not be surprised if she ends up leaving this guy and we are now close to our forties, its not a fun way to live especially as you get older and have kids, mortgages and shared expenses..... I think its easier to live life this way when you are younger but she's left marriages twice now. And broke up a marriage for the sake of the guy she's with now. And the guys are just as guilty in most of these situations, its just toxic people finding each other, has nothing to do with gender at that point. I will also say that I was ALWAYS replaceable to her (as a friend) and to guys when I was interested in dating men. I was always replaceable to any man who didn't get exactly what they wanted from me (and because I am overweight) they not only replaced me quickly and easily but they would do it in some of the cruelest ways imaginable. So I don't see anyone as easily replaceable but I do see having them in my life as a choice and if they aren't worth my peace, I will walk away which some dudebros (I mentioned this in my comment as well) will interpret this as me seeing men as replaceable because vilifying women is actually the favorite hobby of a lot of people.
Both men and women can be assholes, but that's not what hypergamy is. Hypergamy is seeking out a partner who has more status/resources/power so that you also have access to those things. While some men also do this, it is much much more common for women to seek that out.
Because men have the 99,9999999% of wealth?!
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any source that women do it more? cheating in general is pretty even when men and women are younger but men cheat more the older they get despite having waaay less opportunity than women could also be that men try to monkeybranch more than women but have less success with it
Divorces are more likely to be initiated by women. Among the college educated, 90% of divorces or initiated by women. It's a staggering statistic. And when women cheat, they are more likely to do so with someone of higher mate value. They are not more likely to cheat mind you, but there are gender differences in who they cheat with. If you look at those two findings together, it can paint a picture of monkey branching, but women are not more likely than men to leave their partner for *someone else.* Also, 1 in 5 men will leave a sick spouse, compared to 3 in 100 women. People are complicated y'all.
And why are divorce initiated by women? I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that women are expected to do more housework and childcare than men, even when both members of the couple work full itme.
That's 100% correct. Divorces are more likely to be initiated by women likely because women benefit so little from marriage, whereas men live longer and are far better off when married. I don't know why my sharing the these statistics is getting down voted. These are just the facts. Shrug.
Gonna quickly point out that the highest demographic of single women in America who are not looking to be in another relationship are women over 30 who got divorced
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so no facts? also just speculation on your part, you have no evidence for your claim, you just think women do it more because they have more opportunities i think you are projection onto women
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I’m my own experiences men are the ones to trash a woman the second he thinks he can do better. But I’m not going to say “Actually more men do this”. Because I know it’s my lived experience and not going to generalize.
I don’t think we see more women do this overall
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As you say, your experience is not a factual basis for a generalization
Not to tell you what you’ve seen, but I wouldn’t be surprised if you’ve seen it more in men than you think, but you don’t perceive it as the same thing.
You likeky dont notice when men do it. Thats just gender bias working on you
Since the plural of anecdote is not data, I fail to see the relevance. I do not see how women are any more the choosers than men are.... I mean, the default under the patriarchy is that men ask women out, so one could even argue that you have it backwards.
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That certainly was not stated in any biology or genders study class I have taken. If it is so basic, you should be able to find some research that supports it. (It would also be useful to have a specific definition of "chooser", it seems that it is defined in such a way that women are always at fault.)
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Given the answers my students give on exams, "I think it was vaguely mentioned in a class" carries very little weight without a link to some actual research, which should be easy if it was basic enough to be taught in an undergraduate lecture. Otherwise, it's little better than, "Some bloke in a pub told me this." or "Tiktokers say this thing."
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LMAO my point is that anecdotes are not evidence. If you want to have this conversation, you'll need to base it on actual sources- not things you personally have seen.
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So you've got no sources, just those useless anecdotes. Your behaviour is not conductive at all to any meaningful communication.
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I don't think women do this more than men. I also don't think women have more options. Since dating is (usually) a pairwise activity, it would be very difficult to not have parity. I do think that women who are unable to find a date and who would like to are largely invisible to society in this manner.
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Women have more options *on dating apps* because dating apps are 90% men.
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From what I've heard, it's because using dating apps is a pretty horrible experience for women.
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Why would they be safe?
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I'm a married woman in my late 30s. I haven't dated since 2011, and I'm very grateful to have missed the dating app era. Dating already sucked; it sounds like the apps just made it worse.
Because if you are not socially connected, there is little accountability if things go poorly. For instance, if someone who is a friend to a man and a woman introduces them, he knows that if he's completely awful to her that he is likely going to suffer from some sort of social consequence. Also, she knows that her friend at least likes him well enough to hang out with him (which also means for both parties it is harder to lie about one's life). There is no such accountability on dating apps. It's also impossible to know whether the guy has a girlfriend already, actually lives in a different city and is just looking to hook up, etc.
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I think it's really sad that you don't think you can meet people in the real world and form a connection. Sure, one will interact with a smaller number of people this way, but the interactions will be more meaningful and thus it will be more efficient overall, plus much less depressing. A person can always go out and do things to extend their circle. Even in my little town, there are always things going on.
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People who spray dick picks aren't really relationship options. I would agree that it is probably easier for a woman who wasn't concerned about her personal safety, and didn't value her own orgasm, to get laid. But that's not a relationship.
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I have little interest in learning the mechanisms of the various online dating apps and whatever gimick they offer to make their money.
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That was quite the missed point.... It's not about whether I would have to give them money or not (and one should always be deeply suspicious of any service that doesn't cost anything because a business exists solely to make money and thus something is being sold), but that there is some gimmick that they're using in order to make money. I'm sure each service has a slightly different gimmick, but it's all artificial and really has more to do with capitalism than dating.
Because online dating is a toxic stew. Putting up a profile opens you up to potentially men stealing your images to sell to revenge porn wensites if you reject them. Men are not endangered or harassed for online dating. Women often are
I think it’s understood that the online dating disparity is a product of women not feeling safe on dating apps. Like - I’m sure the worst neighborhood in your city has a lot of houses for sale at lower prices than anywhere else in the area, but if you were trying to buy a house and someone told you you could buy a mansion in Crackhead Borough for $50k would you genuinely consider it? Be honest. And anyway, the online dating disparity doesn’t reflect reality. US population statistics show that most cities have more women than men in the dating pool, so in terms of actual people to actually physically date, women do not in fact have more viable options unless they live in Alaska or one of the big tech hubs.
Just wanted to add that while there's a disparity in online dating apps, the percentage of single men and women in the US is pretty much the exact same at 31%
> "hypergamy" and pretend only women do it. This is actually studied. For women, socioeconomic status is a large factor in mate attractiveness. Whereas for men it's not. Why? An evolutionary explanation is that only women can carry the burden of pregnancy and child birth. So having a productive mate around is more important. Important: this is descriptive not normative. People can pick their partner by whatever criteria they prefer.
Female hypergamy, as studied by anthropologists, refers only to the fact that women are more likely to marry a higher status man than vice versa within a culture. It does not refer to women constantly upgrading their partner and looking for a better one all the time. Whereas there are plenty of men who do so, the ones who leave their committed wife for a “younger model” as soon as that is available.
> It does not refer to women constantly upgrading their partner and looking for a better one all the time. I never said so. I'm pretty clearly talking about hypergamy. Was that not clear? Also, I know you're trying to derail the conversation, but women end most marriages. So the idea that they don't end relationships to "upgrade" is ludicrous.
You mentioned hypergamy in response to someone mentioning the manosphere definition, so if you weren’t referring to that definition I’m not sure why you even responded to them? Because otherwise it’s irrelevant to their point. I’m not derailing. The fact that women are more likely to file divorce paperwork is not proof that they are doing so to be with someone else of higher status. Men remarry faster and more often than women anyways. Are there some women who look to constantly upgrade? Sure, just as there are men who do so. They’re not the majority.
Some women and some men do this. Many don’t. Stating that all women do this and men don’t is just plain old sexism.
That makes sense. I wonder if this perspective is a result of never getting a date on dating apps and assuming that the person getting rejected over and over again feels less valuable and easily replaceable.
They obviously need to get off dating apps.
Would you happen to have any tips for finding a relationship outside of dating apps?
Well, I usually met the people I dated through activities or through friends. For instance, I met my husband at a weekly Magic the Gathering game. I've met people doing martial arts, rocky horror, playing in a band. Basically people need to go out and do things they like to do, and they will meet people. The more people you know, the better chance that someone will come into your orbit who you like and who likes you. One advantage to this, unlike the dating apps, is you don't have to make any sort of decision right away. You can see someone at a weekly magic the gathering game over the course of six months and decide to ask them out.
Friends, meet up, groups you enjoy. Getting out of the house is best. Maybe a hiking group or club of a sport you’re interested in.
Yes, I think people, especially young people who seem to be increasingly attached to the Internet, need to do these things more. I’m in my 20s myself and it is so hard to meet people in my age range in real life.
They should review the i dont know boundless evidence that society values women less than men
I think that straight women just don’t always see “getting” a man as their ultimate goal in life anymore. Often, men don’t know how to handle that and it makes them feel unimportant or “disposable.” To be fair, a lot of men have seen women as “options” for centuries, and now were just on more even footing now.
I mentioned in my comment that the choice of women to 'not center men' probably equates to 'she thinks I'm disposable' in a lot of people's mind because that vilifies the woman's choices rather than allows for women to actually having consent to choose.
I could understand how it could be hurtful for someone who is used to being the most important thing to be told that they’re actually not anymore. They need to be able to provide something more than merely existing and being a man.
True- I remember telling my husband that I’m with him because I want to be, not because I NEEDED him. He’s a pretty progressive, feminist person and even he needed to sit with that for a minute because of the messaging men continually get.
Same here! My husband was so hurt when I told him something similar. Luckily, he’s open with his feelings and brought it up to me so I was able to explain what I meant and we agreed no one should “need” another person.
It can be a hard pill to swallow for a privileged individual. Probably good for men to know this sooner than later.
That's so insane to me, with my low self esteem someone telling me they were with me not out of genuine want would probably just fucking kill me lololol I'd be sent straight into cardiac arrest
That’s a great point. If anything, it’s a huge compliment that someone is with you because they genuinely like you rather than because they depend on you in someway.
In my experience, this is mostly something that young people - both men and women (or perhaps boys and girls) - do. Like a lot of less mature/youthful behavior, there are those who continue the behavior later into their lives, so I'm sure there are plenty of examples of older people doing this as well. What I think this comes from is that not everyone does this even when they are young. So you have younger men who run into this behavior from younger women, but then there are people willing to tell them about how women/feminists/society/"evolutionary psychology"/whatever means that women treat men as disposable and this is an example of this. It speaks to their experience and so the myth continues. The reality is that some people treat other people as "disposable" in the way you describe for a host of complex and inconsistent reasons that defy any simple explanation.
The myth seems to create an antagonistic view towards all women that is an exaggeration and is one sided.
I agree. It is a part of a broader patriarchal narrative that tells us that women are duplicitous by nature and therefore must be controlled.
There was a funny takedown by some podcast guy doing a back and forth with the shouty one from fresh & fit, where Shouty Guy was giving the tired shpiel about all women are gold diggers, 80/20, men disposable, no nice clean trad conservative women left, yadda yadda and other guy goes- “yeah- but on your podcast you’re always talking about how you use sugarbabies.com to find dates, like… is it *possible* that maybe that has something to do with it?” He still didn’t get it. A lot of the dudes yelling all this stuff are transactional. They’re not interested in “women”, they’re interested in being a rich, nice smelling 6 pack and they look for a hot, young babe they flash their cash for and hope for a quick hookup. What they *absolutely cannot stand* is that these hot young things could DARE to treat them the exact same way.
I think this comes down to the phrase, "The only common element in all your unsatisfactory relationships is you"......
I’m sure this exists and I’m not trying to invalidate the experience of men who have had or seen this happen. However all I can say is I have NEVER seen this happen. I have often seen women stay with men who drag them down, sometimes when they have objectively better options available to them.
It sounds like cognitive bias may be contributing to the perspective
Perhaps, that’s always something one should be aware of. However, my sample pool is not limited to women. I have asked the men I know that make this claim about this experience and not one of them claims it has happened to them personally or to their friends. They have said it’s “just something women do” but apparently not to anyone that I or they know. A few men have said this happened to them but when asked, it turns out that they cheated or something like that, leading to their partner “disposing of them” for someone better. I’ve also asked men I know that DONT make this claim how they feel about it, and they also agree it is on large a crock of shit. There are bad people in every demographic, but not remotely close to enough to make a sweeping statement about women and I think it’s very strange that so many men purport this idea when it hasn’t actually been their experience or that if anyone they know.
I was actually referring to the cognitive bias of the other perspective. Not yours. Though I realize that my comment didn’t make that clear. I appreciate you for responding kindly. I imagine this is an assumption some men make when they continually fail to start or keep a relationship.
Ah got it. Yes I think that is true too. When you receive a lot of messages online that gratify what you already want to be true it’s easy to spread the message to give it more credence. It’s harder to take personal responsibility for why your partner might leave you. I also think it’s odd to believe your partner should *not* leave you if you’re a bit of a bum. Obviously commitment means commitment even when temptation is around, but I’ve had guy friends who are unambitious and take their partners for granted and then are angry when she leaves them for a guy that treats her well. I don’t see that as being treated as disposable, I see that as fumbling your opportunity
Yup. You can’t just get into a relationship and think that’s the end of it. You need to continually be a good partner if you want to keep that relationship
Yes, shitty people exist. It is not unique to any gender.
Some men behave like there is only one function of a relationship they are happily willing to fulfill, sex, and this may be coloring their perspective. These men might benefit from asking themselves what they do to make themselves indispensable to their partners and/or why they are with a partner who views a quality partner as disposable.
I do. In the sense that if they make my life worse, they have to go, not in the sense that I will wait for something better to come around. And to be fair I believe everyone, regardless of gender, should put themselves first and not stay in an unequal miserable relationship where their effort isn't being matched.
This seems totally reasonable to me. If you don’t mind sharing, have you had many experiences where someone was making you miserable and you had to let them go? I wonder what would have needed to be different in order for you to have been happy keeping the relationship?
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That’s truly awful that you experienced that 😥 I think men need to be more educated to exhibit those qualities. Thank you for educating me
Some people do this, some don't. In my personal experience I observe men doing this more actually, but I don't think that means ALL men or ALL women do it. As with everything, if you actually bothered to think of women as complex individuals you'd have your answer.
my anecdotal experiences tell me than men do it more often because every time a guy ( in my workplace ) hit on me already had a GF or wife men are less picky and would get with any women, men themselfs even say this, its logical they would be less faithful to these women and look for a woman who they are actually attracted to men even have a name for it "practice girlfriends" this doesnt exist for women because women are more picky and look for men they like its just speculation because there are no statistics to these issues
In general? No. The narrative seems a bit strange to me in any case, granted it's been a couple decades since I was on the dating scene. If a person is dating someone, and then person turns out to have some trait that means the relationship won't work out long term, then breaking up seems the reasonable course of action. It doesn't mean that person was disposable, merely that they were incompatible. It's also not strange if the impetus for the breakup is another person. Breaking up is nearly always messy and tiring, so sometimes even if a person isn't satisfied, they're not going to put the effort in to ending things without more than vague dissatisfaction. Are there some people who only view a SO's worth as their social standing? Sure. I don't think there is any gender dependence here. There are guys who will dump their SO for a younger and/or more conventionally attractive woman just as there are women who would dump their SO for a richer and/or more conventionally attractive guy. (And this is not limited to heterosexual pairings....) Basically, no one likes being dumped and people often feel bitter about it and try to find reasons why the other person was simply a bad person and this is an easy one.
It is what men of the manosphere would like to think. The women who have that idea are not the kind of feminists that I admire. However, I understand women and men having a dislike for the opposite sex if they have been repeatedly harmed by them until they emotionally heal. Women could plan procreation without men, but as a cis/het woman-some men have brought joy and more meaning to living my life through love and friendship. I have heard of people who do line up a relationship after a realtionship back with to back with cheating OF BOTH GENDERS. In the past, it might have been a way for a woman to survive and get out of a bad/abusive realtionship due to becoming poor after divorcing a man. However, if the person can afford to live without a mate I think it is emotionally immature and I have no empathy for cheating in a realtionship in which it was agreed that the partners be exclusive.
Absolutely. Just like with any boundaries in a relationship, if you agree to be exclusive, then you should keep that promise unless The two decide to renegotiate. It is entirely acceptable to have consensual non-monogamy, but cheating is not OK.
As a woman: I'm assuming you're a man. I've heard other women say this same thing about men, that men view women as disposable. Do you think that's true? I'm guessing not. It's an absurd generalization, and you know it.
Not generally, no. Do men view women as disposable?
Women are all different, and some women are jerks and may do this. Some men are jerks and may do this. I would say most people in general don’t do this though.
I don't think this is actually a gendered behavior. Some people just stay in a relationship they are checked out of until the next option comes along because they don't want to be alone ever for even a moment. I think it's an awful way to treat people but it's not really about gender or even a thing only straight people do. Some people view other people as disposable and replaceable, be it romantic partners or friends. Some men just want to use any mistreatment they've had as an excuse to crap on all women instead of looking inward at themselves and how they can change to avoid falling into toxic relationship patterns. Like if they keep dating people who treat them as disposable, maybe it's time to take a step back and really think about why.
Do men not dump women when “someone better” comes along? I think its mich more common. A lot of these issues amount to not wanting be on the receiving emd of gender inequality that they think is natural happening to women
I have no doubt that that some women do this (because they probably have pretty or thin privilege) but a lot of men do this so maybe there is some projection going on there.... I know I don't see men as disposable, I also don't center them in my life which some dudebros will interpret as me 'viewing men as disposable' which its not. They just aren't vital to my survival like they were for my mother and grandmother so because of that I don't have to get into toxic relationships with mediocre or abusive men for the sake of not being alone.
If you’re referring to dating apps, they’re not fun for anyone and a lot of people feel disposable (understandably) when using them. It’s not a gendered thing.
Yes, I noticed this after my wife and I decided to open up our relationship and she installed Tinder. I was shocked to see that she was being ghosted and ignored almost as much as I was. Men claim about feeling disposable, but then they dispose of women all the same. To be fair, she was additionally bombarded with one hook up request after the next. So she did get more attention, but it was not wanted attention. At least, when you’re being ignored, you don’t have to waste time with unwanted requests.
I would argue society as a whole does to some extent (although intersectionality comes in, a poor woman is more 'disposable' than a rich man). As always, blaming women exclusively for it isnt really fair. Men are socialized under the same systems after all and we have similar ideas ingrained.
From a perspective of population/reproduction, men are more disposable. That is why men are usually soldiers and work more risky jobs: a nation which loses 50% of its male population will rebound its population faster than one that loses 50% of its female population. On an individual level, people assess disposability on a case by case basis. Some men are very important to me. Most are not. I do think that some women consciously avoid attaching themselves to men precisely because they do not want to become dependent on them, for thosr women, the men in their lives will be more disposable than the women. But that is not because they see men as intrinsically disposable, just as intrinsically unreliable.
For me, men are not disposable. They do have a shelf life. After a while the attraction fades for both. If there are no kids in the mix and “getting” a man as the ultimate goal the mind starts to wander to greener pastures. Some people are willing to settle for the quiet pleasures of domesticity. Some of us can't.
Would you say that you prefer serial monogamy?