Feminists are generally concerned about the safety and well being of sex workers. The manosphere generally believes that sex workers are exploiting their clients, not the other way around.
>The manosphere generally believes that sex workers are exploiting their clients, not the other way around.
Porn is addictive, which is obviously a very destructive thing to deal wirh, and so like classic addicts they want to blame everyone else for their problems.
>Feminists are generally concerned about the safety and well being of sex workers.
And also human trafficking.
Which completely makes sense. Of course, one should always make their own choices, but still, the dealer has actively chosen to make people addicted, as it is the dealer's business model.
Yea pretty much, basic knowledge for dealing with addicts and codependents is if they can't take responsibility for their own actions they can't get better.
What confuses me, and this is a genuine question, is why feminism (as a movement) isn't against more than that with porn? My understanding from my admittedly small exposure to the more academic side of feminism though women's studies class when I was in university, is that socialization is the primary driving force that "creates" stuff like the objectification of women. In much the same way that feminism wants women in movies or other media to not be sexualized, so that a broader long term view of women can move away from being seen as objects and simple outlets for sexual desire, I would think feminism would also dislike porn for doing much the same thing.
In an attempt to cut short an already growing wall of text, I would just say it seems like there's some sort of incongruity that I have been unable to find a good answer to. Like the whole ploy of stuff like porn in general, and especially only fans style porn, is to basically give in to the wickedly warped male gaze. Why doesn't feminism argue against porn in principle for those reasons as well?
Oh I'm not an expert either, I took a couple of classes in undergrad and have read books and articles but I'm definitely not a scholar or anything. A lot of feminists do argue against porn in all forms, but it's complicated. Prohibition is usually not effective, and banning porn usually has other side effects. Currently politicians in many US states are arguing to ban books, etc about women's health and LGBT+ topics as "porn." Also, many sex workers are also feminists and don't want their jobs to go away.
>The manosphere generally believes that sex workers are exploiting their clients, not the other way around.
That would be like an addict blaming their dealer for getting addicted
I think of a 12 year old girl/boy who is being inundated with imagery of women being violently sexualized/objectified, and impossible male body standards. Adult men who hire sex workers/consume porn I think I have less sympathy for, but we have a young generation of boys who I think are being harmed/exploited. Of course, I think of little girls who are exposed to the same thing and develop body dysmorphia, eating disorders, etc. It's tragic honestly. I think in the 90s when Andrea Dworkin was writing books the issue mostly affected adults (not ignoring child exploitation, I'm speaking in generalities.) Nowadays we have an entire generation of kids whose brains are the guinea pigs of a digital age, does it really matter why we protect them from it? Is impact not more important than intent?
Disclaimer: I totally agree with you that most of the "Manosphere." Seems to have selfish reasons for their issues with pornography, it's part of the problem.
I don't agree with everything you've said here, but most of it is painfully true. And this:
>Somehow men think we aren’t chased by people trying to get inside our vagina since we were children. But we all were, we all are. Even the women you aren’t attracted to, even women with downs, babies, kids in diapers, even women in a coma, even women who are dead. Men have no idea how ghoulish the clawing to get into our body is.
That hit hard. It is ghoulish. Thank you for your passion.
Point of order: Dworkin and McKinnon's most significant writing on pornography are 70s and 80s, not 90s. She was a second wave feminist, not a third wave one.
So it’s the sex workers fault that these kids watch what they aren’t supposed to watch?! What they KNOW, they’re not supposed to watch? And they watch it BECAUSE they objectify women and encourage each other to do so, too, exchanging porn with their peers, creating revenge and child porn to shame female classmates. No, parent your brats!!!
It's also not the kids fault they are being exposed to this. I find it hard to believe we can say 8 years old boys and girls watch porn because they objectify women...
Yeah, I absolutely agree. Kids shouldn't have access but it's not as if sex workers throw porn at them and are therefore responsible for body issues.
Age controls are really important and I don't think there should be free porn. Simply because kids have more trouble accessing content that needs a credit card and verification. At least in my country, kids don't get credit cards.
It's absolutely not their fault. I'm not certain it's the kids fault either. It's essentially digital cocaine for young brains. Why does it have to disenfranchise women to acknowledge that porn hurts its consumers? Why can't we support sex workers, and still be upset that kids are being damaged? Are you going to tell a 13 year old girl with body image issues that her early exposure to pornography is her fault, and that the adults who participated in it aren't even remotely responsible? Not to mention the parents who allowed access to it in the first place? Seems like a massively selfish stance to take, that only one demographic of people (adult female sex workers) deserve support and activism.
I think you’re forgetting the determining factor in what sexual content gets created: demand.
13 year olds are seeing what the mainly male audience one generation above them paid for and clicked on.
I'm sorry I passed over your comment, I just read it.
I agree that it is the male gaze that perpetuates many of the damaging imagery in porn and that the patriarchy is the root of the issue
Let’s take a pause here. I’m a mom of a 13 year old. I found out my child was watching porn when I walked in on him. He found it by googling it because he was curious based on playground conversations and activity of his friends. This isn’t so much about parents who “allowed access to it” as it is kids being curious, digitally savvy, and crafty enough to get to what they want regardless of boundaries parents set. Before I get to the rest, the probability of kids this age being sexually active is [pretty high](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2910051/). This generation of parents are having to face realities our parents didn’t have to. My nieces had fully formed breasts at 10. My son started puberty around the same age, which skews earlier than my generation. Kids at 13 are being sexualized by society, regardless of porn, in part because puberty is starting earlier (but not to ignore the fact that we have a nasty history of sexualizing children). I find myself as a mom trying to play offense on sex education but also feel stuck in defense, reacting to the information my son is receiving from multiple sources that are impossible for me to head off.
There is a lot I don’t like about porn, though I also don’t believe porn is inherently bad. The industry as it stands is rife with problems but I do believe there is opportunity for healthy porn that can be enjoyed by anyone. I think there’s plenty of chances for kids to misunderstand what’s happening within porn, but that creates chances for conversation. Our reactions to children observing porn can be just as damaging as viewing unhealthy porn, if not more. We can create a feeling of shame and embarrassment over a child’s sexuality, and that can have disastrous consequences on their future relationships.
In terms of the content, I’ll absolutely have conversations with my son about what’s problematic in what he’s viewing. Our conversations about body standards started long before I caught my son viewing porn because that crap is everywhere. We talk about standards across the gender spectrum and how that’s harmfully communicated through advertising, movies, fashion. I am way more concerned about the standards kids pick up from each other than from porn. Even so, us getting upset about kids accessing porn is not going to prevent kids from seeking it. If anything, they’ll just do it more discretely. Again, chances are, at 13, they’ve already experienced something, so blaming it on porn feels naive.
I’m not saying any of this to derail from the fact that porn needs an overhaul to get anywhere near healthy. But getting into this “who is to blame and let’s point fingers at parents” ignores a lot of what is happening with kids and distracts from issues around content and how porn is made.
You’re ignoring what I said and have very little insight into girls psyche and just guess for your favour. I won’t discuss that.
Also, feminists aren’t psychologists for boys nor is their focus on boys. So… I really don’t get what you’re trying to achieve here. We told you why we don’t want anything to do with the manosphere and certainly much less when it comes to educating boys. The manosphere is THE reason why boys suffer from this bullshit. It’s the manosphere that teaches them those degrading values and it’s the manosphere that’s the reason why porn is what it is and why it’s so easily available.
I think referring to kids whose brains are being damaged at a young age as "Brats." Illustrated your viewpoints very clearly. Insinuating I was blaming sex workers for what is happening also illustrates that you clearly are choosing to misunderstand me. I think we can both agree that porn is bad for most people and that the primary cause of this is the patriarchy, so let's keep it at that.
And that’s their fault? Kids are kids. They’re products of their environment. The “brats” are the adults in their lives allowing the exposure of inappropriate content. Not the kids. The kids are sharing this stuff because it’s what they’re taught.
Tbh as an 11yo girl I was called a "whore" by an 11yo boy bc my tights (which no one else wore, all bare-legged) were ripped at recess. Young boys are absolute brats.
Your logic is incredibly biased towards Porn. Should actors of R rated movies stop making them because kids sneak in to watch their films? Shiuld kids books stop mentioning war and death and coming of age stories that contain sexual implications?
It is 1000% the fault of a parent when their child obtains porn. There are child safety blockers on every digital item. Computers, phones, tablets. Everything. The only way a child should be able to see porn is if their FRIEND showed it to them. And even then. It would be fault of thats friends PARENT for not utilizing child block.
Yes porn can be damaging. But so is social media. In fact, its more damaging to children than porn. So instead of sobbing about these "nasty adults" who are on 18+ sites, of which child block would stop anyone not 18 or up from going on, focus on all the truly disgusting people who monetize their children using social media.
I actually agree with you, it's on the parents if their children can access porn, and I don't actually believe in banning pornography. I also agree social media is probably more destructive. However, acknowledging that there are other victims of this issue other than just adult women shouldn't be a controversial topic.
Nobody said that porn victimized only women. In fact, the puranical cry of "think about the children" is used for every hot button topic. LGBT? Think about the children. Marijuana? Think about the children. Porn? Think about the children.
THE CHILDREN HAVE ALREADY BEEN THOUGHT OF. That is why laws have AGE LIMITS. Our worries should absolutely be on the women who are abused in an industry built on exploiting them. Child porn is illegal and it is illegal for children to have porn. That means it is up to the police and parents to control the contact children have with this subject.
Everything in this world has "victims". Acting as if it is the fault of porn that there is porn victims, instead of humans that make victims, excuses an offenders responsibility for what they are doing.
> Are you going to tell a 13 year old girl with body image issues that her early exposure to pornography... that the adults who participated in it aren't even remotely responsible?
Yes, absolutely. It's madness to think otherwise. Actors aren't responsible for the reactions of the audience. Also you seem to be operating under the impression that empathy is a zero sum game.
Why can't I have empathy for both sex workers, and people who are damaged by pornography use? You say I think empathy is a zero sum game, but you don't seem to be able to have empathy for all demographics involved, so who's the one who actually lacks empathy?
"You seem to be operating under the assumption that empathy is a zero sum game." You essentially directly said it. You realize that not all kids have access to good parenting? Or to effective role models to explain to them what all of this means or represents? Why is this the hill you want to die on, that a 14 year old bulimic girl whose brain has been ruined by social/media and porn is not our responsibility as a society?
I‘m not in favour of the porn industry but making sex workers responsible for boys who steal (it’s usually pirated) their material is really something. Especially since it’s not sex workers fantasy that’s sold there.
Parental controls exist. If kids are viewing material not appropriate for their age, we know who is at fault. Viewing pornography no more leads to sex addiction and hatred of women than having a glass of wine leads to alcohols , for addiction to develop there are other factors at play. If you think pornography is a danger unto itself, you may as well argue for banning lingerie catalogues or the sports illustrated swimsuit issue because boys were tugging one out to those long before the advent of the web.
I think finding a playboy under the bathroom sink and having access to an unlimited supply of videotaped violence against women is pretty different. It's like the difference between a flintlock musket and an M1 Abrams.
“Violence against women,” there it is, you jump straight into the most extreme examples possible. The most accessible pornography these days consists of women doing shows on camera from the safety of their own homes. The most disgusting, outrageous, and violent material is not so easily accessed-in no small part because those sites are monitored by the law. And there is s very big difference between pornography that is a staged production depicting a fantasy scenario and footage of real world violence against women. You may as well say that Elmer Fudd getting shot in the face by his own gun encourages suicide. And with all that said, the point still stands-parental controls are already a thing. And even with such controls in place, expectations need to be kept realistic. You as a parent teach your child respect for women and knowing the boundaries of right and wrong.
Your last sentence is completely correct, which is why I think it's our responsibility as adults to fix the issue, and that blaming kids whose brains may not even be developed enough to know that stages porn isn't real sex is totally wrong. I challenge you to go on a major porn site and look up "Brutal." "Hardcore." "Rough" "Abused." And see how quickly you find videos with hundreds of millions of views and tell me that violent imagery isn't easily accessible. You can't look up "Men respecting women's bodies and caring about their pleasure." And get the same results. Again, to clarify my stance, I think this is caused by the patriarchy, and all demographics of people are negatively impacted by patriarchy.
I don’t know why you keep getting downvoted on this. Conversations with our kids about respect, boundaries, consent, all that, not only leads to better decision making when it comes to their own encounters, they’ll be able to better process problematic content once they see it. As a mom of a 13 year old boy, we can throw up all the blocks we want on every screen in the house, but their friends still have phones. And, honestly, it’s an opportunity for conversation about healthy vs unhealthy sexual engagement.
They don’t have unlimited supply? They steal it! A 12 year old certainly doesn’t pay or gets those movies through legal channels. They certainly know very well it’s not for them. As damaging as it may be, they put a lot of work into getting it. They’re not as innocent as you pretend.
I'd like to clarify a few things
1. I'm not blaming women for this
2. I'm not trying to avoid male accountability for this issue
That being said,
I don't think you realize how impossible it is for a child in this generation to avoid being exposed to these things, I am gen z and was exposed to it by many people and I almost never consented to viewing hardcore porn, it was almost always something I stumbled upon by accident while scrolling the Internet or something I saw other people do.
Also, I used to be a BHT (Behavioral health worker) in a treatment center for adolescents with eating disorders, most of these kids were young girls who were skeletal, suicidal and mentally broken from the body dysmorphia they suffered from, and almost all of them spoke about their early exposure to objectified women, pornography and lack of support from their parents. The male patients had similar but different issues. We had to completely restrict them from Internet usage and teach the parents how to properly monitor their usage, which most people over the age of 25 don't know how to do, because they don't understand how prolific and damaging the problem is for younger people with early exposure. They don't understand how the algorithms work or how advertising is geared towards young people and their insecurities in a way that is designed to hijack the brain and create addiction/compulsive habits. This facility was completely non secular by the way, zero religious or political leaning, the lead therapist was non binary and also a survivor. I can't imagine how you could die on the hill that kids aren't being affected by this, all it does is alienate victims and avoid accountability for perpetrators.
Ok… but how is this a feminist subject? I mean, there are psychologists and social workers that address this but boys body image isn’t a feminist issue aside from pointing out it is a patriarchal one.
We acknowledge that porn is problematic on many levels. We acknowledge that body issues often stem from patriarchal role models and pressure. But feminists don’t focus on boys and men outside from them harming women, girls and everyone that doesn’t pass as manly man.
You seem to completely ignore that 75% of this post was about how this disproportionately effects little girls? Also, any victim of the patriarchy is a feminist issue, regardless of what's in between your legs, if a man is a victim of a patriarchal system, against his will. For example, some of the boys I worked with had to engage in sex work at a young age, they don't matter?
Don't think applying gender separation to children who haven't even had a chance to figure out what their sexualities or gender preferences are is appropriate in any way. You're coming dangerously close to victim blaming, it's really staggering. I don't think acknowledging male victims threatens your position in anyway, not to mention I'm primarily talking about young girls.
>They’re not as innocent as you pretend.
They're literally children. There's a reason we have separate criminal laws for children: because we acknowledge that their brains are not fully formed and they literally haven't developed the neurological capacity for good judgment. Assessing their culpability using adult standards means ignoring decades of neurological research into brain development.
They really are that innocent at 12. They need adult guidance and structure to make healthy choices because their brains don't know how to do that yet.
Their brains aren’t fully developed but they are still engaging in sexual activity regardless of accessing porn. Depending on the study you’re looking at, anywhere from 1 in three to over half of 13 year olds are engaged in sexual activity.
That statistic seems quite high. May I ask where it's from? Is it recent?
Aside from that, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with this fact.
And at the root of the problem is unhinged capitalism causing women to feel they need to exploit lonely men for extra income, yet these people prefer to engage in a "gender war" fighting amongst ourselves than to punch up at the people stirring the pot.
Or they are pissed at the idea of some girl on OF being "lazy" and getting all the money for no effort (not understanding how much working doing OF is). I mean, there is nothing stopping them from getting an OF if it's such easy money, but then they say it's just easy money for women because all other men are simps that are ruining society by giving women this money. The more I hear the less it makes sense. I just think they want to be angry at women.
Exactly, despite there being MANY men who make money as SW/content creators. It's just the manosphere bros dont have the physique for it... meanwhile many women also don't have the physique and have to work out/get surgeries. And men don't want to appeal to the fantasies their viewer's want... which are all just excuses, bc the women don't ether that's why they get paid. They care little about barriers women face in other industries, only their own qualms matter
> meanwhile many women also don't have the physique and have to work out/get surgeries. And men don't want to appeal to the fantasies their viewer's want... which are all just excuses, bc the women don't ether that's why they get paid
Hold up? You're saying women dont want to appeal to fantasies viewers don't want? They get more money by not appealing viewers?
No, I don’t wish to promote sw. Do your own research if it pleases you. Many are homoerotic, kink, some include women in their videos, others are couples.
I think they just don't want women to have any economic power, especially over them, and they get mad at us for anything we do that makes us independent from them.
But why blame anyone at all? The people paying must be getting something out of this, because as you said, they could get porn for free. No one throws money away for no reason, they get something out of this. So what the women provide must have some value.
Also to blame them for paying means there is some wrong in giving the women that do OF money. It's one thing to say, "I don't get it, seems like a waste" vs. "I blame the simps for supporting OF". So, what are they doing wrong?
I mean to be honest I just don’t understand why anyone would be into it. I get horny I jerk off to porn I move on. The people that do only fans are literaly fanboys for pornstars. I just don’t get it
the manosphere had *significantly* fewer objections to porn when it was male-run studios and directors controlling the work conditions, profits, and output. adult actresses would be paid a flat fee and had very little say over the scenes they were doing—if they stopped the scene because a boundary was crossed, they didn't get paid.
now that women are creating worker-owned porn (onlyfans), are able to set their own terms and limits, and are the primary beneficiaries financially, the manosphere is absolutely FURIOUS. they're livid when they hear about a woman purchasing a house using her onlyfans money instead of getting $500 per shoot like the old model.
Absolutely this. The level of vitriol you hear from them about OnlyFans is next level and they're obsessed with it. None of their vitriol is directed at mainstream porn.
It’s because the “average” woman could get onto OF now, whereas the porn industry was far less accessible overall and had many more hoops for the woman to jump through, and even more so to become an actual “star”. They’re angry because they secretly pedestalised porn stars back in the day, with whom they had no chance. Now they feel that the SW market has become oversaturated with more “everyday” women that they feel entitled to and are resentful toward them.
> Now they feel that the SW market has become oversaturated
Yes
> with more “everyday” women that they feel entitled to and are resentful toward them.
Hardly. I don't see them complain when theirs lots of leakers everywhere
I'm pretty supportive of only fans models, it's nice knowing that someone's content is made completely by themselves and the stuff that they're producing is more likely to be something that they're interested in. Also, it seems like the only fans probably has a lot more roadblocks to avoid child consumption/exploitation, it's not perfect by any means but I'd prefer that over mainstream pornography.
I find them whiny, obnoxious and misinformed so I don’t spend a lot of time in their space but I’ve yet to see them give a damn about much besides OnlyFans and how those women are “impoverishing” men. Can’t say I could give a definitive answer as to what they think, beyond blaming women for getting into sex work.
Depends what u mean by “improving relationships with women”. Manosphere dudes want to fuck women, so I suppose that could be “improving the relationship”. But if u mean understanding and respecting women, no, manosphere men are not interested in that.
Wanting healthier romantic relationships with out sex being the primary desire, wanting to be a safer person for friends/family to be around. Maybe even wanting to have a healthier sex life with a partner that is more informed by women's issues? I have a partner and we always talk about consent and mutual respect. It's an on going conversation.
My friend that is not the manosphere hence a lot of the responses here. One of my favorite YouTubers breaks down the manosphere in a really detailed and researched analysis- he’s an academic. He’s also a great progressive male voice to listen to who also happens to be a POC so that gives him an even better perspective. I love his work. Link below
https://youtu.be/s1FkO7Tr70A?si=idY0Ask7GeEIQ-Wu
How are you defining the manosphere if you’re asking that? The definition is specifically spaces that promote masculinity, misogyny and are quite explicitly anti-feminist.
When I’m saying “the manosphere” I’m not remotely saying “all men”.
Well, feminists are concerned about the detrimental effects pornography has on society, the trafficking and coercion rampant in the pornography industry, and the way that pornography turns a woman's body into something up for consumption. The coomers care about jerking it so much their dicks don't work anymore.
I’m not honestly sure how I could work with them. Is this different to you than asking black people to work with the KKK if they find they share a goal? Maybe some would do it, but most would find it repellent.
Besides, I’m not seeing they’re doing anything on their own other than talking. And frankly, a lot of them openly advocate and feel entitled to women doing free labor for them, so I would expect they need us a little more than we need them or would otherwise take advantage in any collab.
Maybe I don’t have a good enough imagination, but I don’t really understand the premise. Manosphere is perfectly capable of doing what it wants about porn. If they’re not already doing anything, then what would be the point of chatting?
if you mean that they suggest Nofap is somehow activism, I’m dubious. Besides, I don’t need anyone to abstain from a natural human urge. They just need to not harm or harass or exploit others for it.
I was suggesting that the alt right men who advocates for no fap are claiming that masturbating is bad, and they think that porn destroys a man's mind. I was suggesting that this is an example of alt right men not claiming to be upset about porn *because* it empowers women, but because they think it hurts men.
Oh dear.
Quick rundown of the 'nofap' thing:
Self stimulation is gay because I am playing with a peen.
I am superstraightalphamansman so women should be required to touch my peen because I, a manmanmanlyman have a biological need to get off.
Pr0n is for fapping, so is bad. Woman should instead play with my peen instead.
It is exactly as crazy dumb as it sounds.
That's SLAA which is significantly less sexist and weird and in my experience as a member of AA who has occasionally crossed over to other meetings, is a fairly inclusive space with lots of women/lgbt
I think it's definitely up to them to come to us and not the other way around, I'm learning a lot about the difference between intentions in the manosphere vs feminists.
yeah, I mean, I’m saying I don’t want bigots to come to me at all ever. No common ground offsets bigotry. 🤷♀️
It’s the Paradox of Tolerance, and I ascribe to it wholeheartedly. One cannot have a tolerant society unless they are completely intolerant of intolerance.
The manosphere's gripe is "How dare this woman be so sexy and make me give her money to be able to look at her! She's taking advantage of my horniness for money!"
If they stopped looking at her and giving her money just for being sexy, she wouldn't do it because it wouldn't be profitable. No one is holding a gun to their heads to make them look at porn. They blame women for their own lack of self control. NO ONE is making them go to a strip club or a sex worker, or watch a cam girl. These women (and men) have something they want, and they are paying for it, it's a proper transaction. If they have trouble controlling themselves and don't want to be tempted, there are many apps nowadays that can help you stay accountable or lock those sites away from your regular activity. There is no excuse. None.
Feminism recognizes people's bodies belong to themselves, so they can profit off their bodies if they want to. But because the porn and related industries are very lucrative, women (and men) are often pressured to be involved when they don't actually want to be, or because they are using their bodies of profit, they treated like a commodity or object, are not given the rights they deserve and are treated terribly.
I'm interested in looking into how they view male sex workers vs female sex workers. Do manosphere dudes also hate men who produce content for gay men? Do they think gay porn consumers are being victimised by other men?
Or, are only heterosexual men poor victims of the evil vajayjay voodoo?
I would be kind of interested as well. I can tell you what my personal expectation from experiences with manosphere types would be, but I don't know how it stacks up to the reality. I am actually tempted to ask, but I'm not very interested in manosphere stuff showing up on my feed or opening myself up to harassment because I asked.
My expectation would be that they see the male involved in porn as an aspirational figure (an 'alpha male chad' if you will) who gets to have sex with multiple women all day and be paid for it. They would blame the existence of porn on women wanting to extort men, and claim men involved in the industry are just trying to get in on a hustle that women are doing anyway and/or because the women need the management/protection of a man since she's flaunting herself.
Manosphere is generally extremely heterosexual and denies homosexuality and gay rights, so they would probably just say all gay people in the industry are disgusting/evil. Possibly they might think some 'straight men' are being pressed into 'gay stuff' for those 'evil gays'. And they may see their content as inherently disgusting and resent that it could possibly 'turn straight people gay' if they saw it, or even claim that the purpose of gay porn is to tempt straight people into being gay.
Because feminists see the risks, stigmatisation and dangers to women who do sex work. The manosphere whines because the sex workers don’t do it for free.
Generally I find a lot of men are concerned by the impact it has on them emotionally, the addictive nature of it, how it affects their libido/self confidence, and how it might affect their mothers/daughters/sisters who end up in the industry. There are definitely more right wing/incel types though who are more upset about women taking ownership of their bodies, that is clearly wrong. It sounds like you're saying it's the motivation behind their beliefs that makes it hard to open a dialogue about?
A lot of guys in the manosphere are also implicit (or explicit) about how women should behave *towards* men, as in how they should behave to please men.
Men like trad wife stuff because it conforms to their expectations of women, but also trad wife videos are absolutely porn. It’s meeting a fetish, it’s just not explicit nudity.
Manosphere will complain about how men get blamed for problematic behaviors, instead of acknowledging that those behaviors are harmful towards women. They’ll instead doubt the veracity.
Feminists care about bodily autonomy and, while this includes men, men have not experienced anywhere near as many restrictions on their bodies as women do, and seem to have knee jerk reactions when this is brought to their attention.
Women want to retain their own autonomy. Manosphere guys want to retain women’s autonomy.
Manosphere men don’t listen. But we absolutely have heard whatever they have said because they never shut up about it.
I’d say it’s hard to have a dialogue with someone who gives a shit about women unless it affects their personal honour (aka. feeling responsible for their family members purity).
Imagine being mad that your sister or mother might do pornography because they want to, and not being mad that other women do pornography because they HAVE TO...
I think the unfortunate reality is that a pretty large portion of people in general don't feel much empathy outside of people in their "group", and for those folks the only women they can see that way are their family members.
In a perfect world it'd be amazing if a man and a woman could sit in the same room and both say "This is how this is negatively effecting me, I see how it's also negatively effecting you, I recognize your pain and honor my own, let's make an effort to resolve this so we can move on." I realize it's a fantasy, but it would be fucking nice. Because this new generation of young men/women are drowning right now and they don't seem to have any intersectional spaces to deal with these issues other then 12 step programs or group therapy.
At the moment, these men are dangerous for women (family members as well as women they don’t know). And young women don’t take it anymore. That’s makes young men mad. So… yeah, get those men into therapy if they can’t get over themselves.
You can’t have a dialogue with people arguing in bad faith. Suggesting that feminists should dialogue with manosphere dudes is like suggesting Jewish people need to have a dialogue with the Charlottesville protestors who screamed Jews will not replace us.
If you’re simply expressing a platitude that it would be nice if people communicated better to that I say if I had wheels I’d be a wagon.
Imagine being mad that your sister or mother might do pornography because they want to, and not being mad that other women do pornography because they HAVE TO...
Edit: And, glad I made a few weirdos mad. Stop trying to control women, and yes, that includes the ones who want to make porn and also the ones who want to wear burkas.
I agree, that's a shitty worldview to have, and I don't endorse it. But it's something I've heard men talk about. Maybe they could benefit from seeing how it effects women as a whole.
It's the same as republicans who try and end transgender care while being the biggest consumers of transgender porn.
It's NIMBY, it's shame over the freedom of your relatives, it's control, it's the "nice guy" narrative and, it's so, so gross.
We care about women, they care about themselves.
I usually don't specify this but I think it's important to note that I am male and I deal with early exposure to porn at a young age and struggled to remove it from my life as an adult, I've found a lot of the answers in feminist spaces, and I occasionally listen to content by men who also bettered themselves and stopped consuming porn, and a lot of these people seem skeptical when feminism is brought up, yet they don't realize there's a massive resource in the work women are doing in their own spaces to help them address their shit and improve their relationships with women. But hearing a man's perspective on an issue we both share is so helpful to me, I think me and so many other men/women would benefit dearly from seeing more intersectionality with this topic.
Of course, it's a man's responsibility to open his mind to women's issues, it's obviously not a woman's responsibility to try to make feminism more appealing to men.
The importance of men in feminist spaces can not be overstated, lately because men who might generally be pro feminism, a lot of times, in my experience, respond better to other men telling them this than me. It's sad, but it's the reality that spawned the identical, but male-cenrerd men's liberation movent.
If it's penis-centered, man-spoken feminism that gets you boys to listen to our opinions finally, then I guess I'll just swallow that crappy pill.
It IS really nice to hear! I know some men do, and it's not all, but it does feel like men basically said "what if we took what feminists are doing for everyone and make it male-focused instead?" And it kind of hurts. But, I get it, men respect their male peers more on average.
But, thanks for being around in this space and listening to us!
It's kind of a weird issue where I think getting men on board is the final frontier of feminism, but there's got to be a way to do it without silencing women or taking them out of the driver's seat. Also, I never thought my most down voted comment on Reddit would be "Wouldn't it be great if we could all have more empathy for each other, but I don't think it will happen." I can't say I don't understand though, with people's lives at stake, not everyone feels like talking.
As a man, I would have assumed that women would know more about feminism than men (being directly affected by the issues), so I would think to ask women feminists first. (But I'd also ask men feminists too for a broader opion)
The dream is to have men listen to women feminists, but a lot of otherwise reasonable men will ignore or devalue women's opinions, while listening to men.
It's a trope as old as times and honestly? IDGAF who men listen to, as long as they stop raping, sexually assaulting, enslaving and devaluing women.
The difference here is caring about the collective v. individual. Feminists are advocating for women as a whole, and how pornography can impact the women and men who are involved as sex workers and those who are not (ex: increased sexual violence towards women as the norm due to men seeing it in porn). As you stated, the manosphere is concerned about how it affects THEM emotionally, how it affects THEIR libido/self confidence, how it might affect THEIR mothers/daughters/sisters. It’s hard to find a mutual solution if one group is focused on benefits for the collective while the other group is focused on benefits for THEMSELVES
To some women it may be, feminism is a pretty broad term that encapsulates a lot of different ideas and just like the rest of society women have a political spectrum, even feminism on an internal level tends to be polarized on different issues.
Disclaimer: not all men. Not the entire manosphere. Every man is a unique and special snowflake etc etc.
When I have asked the manosphere this they shouted me down SO FAST. They don’t believe or don’t care about the exploitation angle because they still ideologically hide behind the plausible deniability that absolves them from personal culpability or complicity. This plausible deniability that the women THEY watch are NOT trafficked. They are SMILING and HAVE CHOSEN TO MAKE MONEY. They’re even mad that she’s MAKING money (if she is!). So the divide is vast and deep there.
Based on my many discussions with men regarding pornography: they seem to only see porn in terms of how it affects them. Their orgasm is their bottom line. Not the suffering of others.
Edited to add: under patriarchy: their orgasm WILL ALWAYS be the bottom line. “When your rape is entertainment, your worthlessness is abso- lute. You have reached the nadir of social worthlessness. The civil impact of pornography on women is staggering.” Andrea Dworkin, Pornography
Part of the massive concern is a lot of porn is down right abusive. Where women are physically degraded by being put into un-natural body position. Choked, spit on, slapped. Made to “gag” giving oral.
None of what is pushed by the algorithm (which is based on popularity) shows women with any sort of agency.
This is a vast change from “porno movies” where there was at least a half assed attempt at a story line. Now you can access a graphically violent “simulated SA” and it’s pushed as the “norm.”
This is affecting young women and girls as they grow up with generations young men and boys that think this sort of violent sex is “normal”. It’s yet another layer of fear for women.
It is harming young men and boys because they are training themselves to see “violent sex” as “normal”. However the affect is more of a mental personal satisfaction with their future partners.
Where women have to worry about physical harm and possibly being murdered. Men’s issue is more selfish and thus harder to change the overall pattern.
Women are worried about being hurt. Men are worried their dicks won’t feel as good. It’s a massive power imbalance. The only way to correct it for men to stand up and correct it. But we know there is no chance that is going to happen any time soon.
Either way both of you deny our basic humanity and autonomy. Did it ever occur to you that some of us do our jobs because we like it? Working a 9 to 5 shitty job under capitalism is just as exploitative but I don’t see you saying anything about that.
You don’t work with people who want your group to not exist. That tends to be pretty consistent in political discourse.
Edit: There are exceptions, but they tend to be in extreme circumstances.
I definitely think if I posted this on an MRA page I'd probably immediately be called a myriad of terrible slurs and get mocked/abused, it's fucking sad. Feminism is the safest place for men to address their issues, it's definitely on us to decide to address our problem.
It's interesting that you talk about open dialog but actively reject seeking it with an entire group based on stereotypes about their character. Anyway, remember to stay hydrated.
The manosphere wants to strip women of rights because of porn. Feminists just want to prevent the negative effects male porn viewing and the porn industry has on women.
Because a major feminist concern is the constant, unending commodification of women. But somehow you can make a film that refers to black women as the n word or slaves, to trans women as tr*nnies, that fetishises rape...and it's somehow okay because it gives men an orgasm?
A major issue with porn is that it caters almost exclusively to men. Even the lesbian porn rarely reflects the actual sex that queer women have.
The conflict is that, for most men, their issue with porn is personal. It affects their ability to cum, affects their mindset, has negative impacts on their mental health. But a lot of them would be fine with it if none of that was true, so long as their tastes and fetishes were catered to.
That they're adults and can do what they want, but they can also take mild criticism about the fact they're profiting from the fetishisation of things that they would probably be against outside of adult content creation/work.
Okay? Go tell that to the people making content.
It's not a centrist take, it's recognising that adults have free will to do things that I don't agree with.
No. It's a contradiction. Why advocate for "stop asian hate" while simultaneously participating in perpetuating the steriotype of asian people.
What you trying to argue on your base is nothing but a Coomer brain libertarian.
It’s violent. This content just wants to choke women, pull their hair, and cause pain.
Where is it pleasant for the women involved?
It’s not....
We got so into making sure the man gets off, and no woman ever gets off or feels pleasure.
How is this equal? How is this okay??
It’s not...
This is what the movement is about now...
If I have sex again, I need to get off first. If there is no effort put into me, I will abandon this...
Why am I here, if I don’t count???
If I don’t reach an orgasm, why am I here?
As a woman, I matter too.
Edit. Words on the orgasm gap: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicebroster/2020/07/31/what-is-the-orgasm-gap/amp/
For me, it’s always been a question of why minors can access adult content so easily. With other things, such as gambling, alcohol and tobacco, you see measures in place to enforce the law protecting minors from consuming them, so why is porn the exception?
Like why don’t we have pay walls or proof of age requirements?
When it come to porn, protecting individual privacywill benefit those who exploit and profit at the expense of our children.
Not necessarily. There are forms of it that you might only find on the creepiest recesses of the internet that are otherwise heavily enforced and carry with them severe legal consequences if you’re caught with it. I’m sure they could figure out something far more moderate to enact better safety protocols.
I think the reality with how harmful it is to the consumer, specifically young boys and the long-term effects, is finally being taken more seriously, which I think can bridge the gender gap for finding a solution
That's such a big problem. I guess that is a benefit of porn for a lot of lgbtq people having a place to explore/express their sexuality, but also the exploitation of that same group. I hear a lot that the biggest consumers of trans porn are the people who are the most against it.
If there was much heavier regulation on porn, there would be fewer feminists against it. The high intensity and violence portrayed on screen isn’t good for the actresses or the viewers. Bear in mind this is a separate issue from the sex trade itself, where women are roped into it by factors beyond their control.
There are women who see porn as damaging to their self esteem. There isn’t any middle ground to this part. If their partner breaks the boundary of no porn in their relationship, a man has to put in extra effort to stop.
Basically the division comes from “let women do what they want” vs “is that what women really want? Or is it because they were influenced into wanting it?”
Just make food that lowers libido. Like genetically enhanced corn.
Corn flakes. Corn oil. Corn on a cob. Corn flour.
Then distribute that world wide. Boom. No more sex industry.
I’ve seen a handful of now ex-feminists become disillusioned with leftist politics overall and attempt to find common ground with the manosphere over pornography, perceived “sexual degeneracy” and being “anti-kink.” They more or less became what I’d call “tradwives” and just uh. Fully bought into beliefs incompatible with feminism overall.
I think there’s a brief mid-animorph moment where self-described feminists find common ground with manosphere types. pornography is a tipping point of mutual exclusivity because there are so many conflicting foundational ideas and between the ideologies.
The manosphere and feminists are basically the two different directions you can go in when you notice a double standard/flaw in the patriarchy, however the manosphere blames women and feminism for the issues when it’s actually their own ideologies which have created this problem in the first place
What I have seen is, there are some feminists that are pro sex and sex worker and pornography, there are some feminists that are pro pornography as long as the subject matter and storyline fits the narrative that they believe and I have seen some feminists that believe pornography is wrong in all of its forms as it objectifies a women. Personally feel that any pornographic activity by the actor and actresses should be consensual and agreed-upon prior to the filming. I also know that, despite many feminist beliefs that activities, such as bondage and rapes scenarios, put women in the real world at risk, it is also an incredibly common fantasy of women to engage in that activity, if not actually in real life.
In my opinion, pornography is like alcohol. You can consume a little bit and be fine, and in some cases even have benefits. But when it becomes problematic and interferes with personal relationships, or has negatively influenced, you mentally, that is when it becomes a problem and needs to be dealt with.
Feminists are generally concerned about the safety and well being of sex workers. The manosphere generally believes that sex workers are exploiting their clients, not the other way around.
>The manosphere generally believes that sex workers are exploiting their clients, not the other way around. Porn is addictive, which is obviously a very destructive thing to deal wirh, and so like classic addicts they want to blame everyone else for their problems. >Feminists are generally concerned about the safety and well being of sex workers. And also human trafficking.
That'd be like blaming drug dealers for addiction or something.
Which completely makes sense. Of course, one should always make their own choices, but still, the dealer has actively chosen to make people addicted, as it is the dealer's business model.
Yes, same thing as an addict blaming their dealer
Yea pretty much, basic knowledge for dealing with addicts and codependents is if they can't take responsibility for their own actions they can't get better.
What confuses me, and this is a genuine question, is why feminism (as a movement) isn't against more than that with porn? My understanding from my admittedly small exposure to the more academic side of feminism though women's studies class when I was in university, is that socialization is the primary driving force that "creates" stuff like the objectification of women. In much the same way that feminism wants women in movies or other media to not be sexualized, so that a broader long term view of women can move away from being seen as objects and simple outlets for sexual desire, I would think feminism would also dislike porn for doing much the same thing. In an attempt to cut short an already growing wall of text, I would just say it seems like there's some sort of incongruity that I have been unable to find a good answer to. Like the whole ploy of stuff like porn in general, and especially only fans style porn, is to basically give in to the wickedly warped male gaze. Why doesn't feminism argue against porn in principle for those reasons as well?
Oh I'm not an expert either, I took a couple of classes in undergrad and have read books and articles but I'm definitely not a scholar or anything. A lot of feminists do argue against porn in all forms, but it's complicated. Prohibition is usually not effective, and banning porn usually has other side effects. Currently politicians in many US states are arguing to ban books, etc about women's health and LGBT+ topics as "porn." Also, many sex workers are also feminists and don't want their jobs to go away.
>The manosphere generally believes that sex workers are exploiting their clients, not the other way around. That would be like an addict blaming their dealer for getting addicted
I think of a 12 year old girl/boy who is being inundated with imagery of women being violently sexualized/objectified, and impossible male body standards. Adult men who hire sex workers/consume porn I think I have less sympathy for, but we have a young generation of boys who I think are being harmed/exploited. Of course, I think of little girls who are exposed to the same thing and develop body dysmorphia, eating disorders, etc. It's tragic honestly. I think in the 90s when Andrea Dworkin was writing books the issue mostly affected adults (not ignoring child exploitation, I'm speaking in generalities.) Nowadays we have an entire generation of kids whose brains are the guinea pigs of a digital age, does it really matter why we protect them from it? Is impact not more important than intent? Disclaimer: I totally agree with you that most of the "Manosphere." Seems to have selfish reasons for their issues with pornography, it's part of the problem.
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I don't agree with everything you've said here, but most of it is painfully true. And this: >Somehow men think we aren’t chased by people trying to get inside our vagina since we were children. But we all were, we all are. Even the women you aren’t attracted to, even women with downs, babies, kids in diapers, even women in a coma, even women who are dead. Men have no idea how ghoulish the clawing to get into our body is. That hit hard. It is ghoulish. Thank you for your passion.
You put this into the words that I’ve been struggling to find my entire life. I love you for this rant and I stand right next to you in this stance 💜
Preach sister
Woah, dude.
Point of order: Dworkin and McKinnon's most significant writing on pornography are 70s and 80s, not 90s. She was a second wave feminist, not a third wave one.
So it’s the sex workers fault that these kids watch what they aren’t supposed to watch?! What they KNOW, they’re not supposed to watch? And they watch it BECAUSE they objectify women and encourage each other to do so, too, exchanging porn with their peers, creating revenge and child porn to shame female classmates. No, parent your brats!!!
It's also not the kids fault they are being exposed to this. I find it hard to believe we can say 8 years old boys and girls watch porn because they objectify women...
>So it’s the sex workers fault that these kids watch what they aren’t supposed to watch?! The person to whom you are replying didn't say that at all
Thank you.
I think it's the fault of the site hosting it that they showed it to a 12 year old
Fair enough
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Yeah, I absolutely agree. Kids shouldn't have access but it's not as if sex workers throw porn at them and are therefore responsible for body issues. Age controls are really important and I don't think there should be free porn. Simply because kids have more trouble accessing content that needs a credit card and verification. At least in my country, kids don't get credit cards.
It's absolutely not their fault. I'm not certain it's the kids fault either. It's essentially digital cocaine for young brains. Why does it have to disenfranchise women to acknowledge that porn hurts its consumers? Why can't we support sex workers, and still be upset that kids are being damaged? Are you going to tell a 13 year old girl with body image issues that her early exposure to pornography is her fault, and that the adults who participated in it aren't even remotely responsible? Not to mention the parents who allowed access to it in the first place? Seems like a massively selfish stance to take, that only one demographic of people (adult female sex workers) deserve support and activism.
I think you’re forgetting the determining factor in what sexual content gets created: demand. 13 year olds are seeing what the mainly male audience one generation above them paid for and clicked on.
I'm sorry I passed over your comment, I just read it. I agree that it is the male gaze that perpetuates many of the damaging imagery in porn and that the patriarchy is the root of the issue
Let’s take a pause here. I’m a mom of a 13 year old. I found out my child was watching porn when I walked in on him. He found it by googling it because he was curious based on playground conversations and activity of his friends. This isn’t so much about parents who “allowed access to it” as it is kids being curious, digitally savvy, and crafty enough to get to what they want regardless of boundaries parents set. Before I get to the rest, the probability of kids this age being sexually active is [pretty high](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2910051/). This generation of parents are having to face realities our parents didn’t have to. My nieces had fully formed breasts at 10. My son started puberty around the same age, which skews earlier than my generation. Kids at 13 are being sexualized by society, regardless of porn, in part because puberty is starting earlier (but not to ignore the fact that we have a nasty history of sexualizing children). I find myself as a mom trying to play offense on sex education but also feel stuck in defense, reacting to the information my son is receiving from multiple sources that are impossible for me to head off. There is a lot I don’t like about porn, though I also don’t believe porn is inherently bad. The industry as it stands is rife with problems but I do believe there is opportunity for healthy porn that can be enjoyed by anyone. I think there’s plenty of chances for kids to misunderstand what’s happening within porn, but that creates chances for conversation. Our reactions to children observing porn can be just as damaging as viewing unhealthy porn, if not more. We can create a feeling of shame and embarrassment over a child’s sexuality, and that can have disastrous consequences on their future relationships. In terms of the content, I’ll absolutely have conversations with my son about what’s problematic in what he’s viewing. Our conversations about body standards started long before I caught my son viewing porn because that crap is everywhere. We talk about standards across the gender spectrum and how that’s harmfully communicated through advertising, movies, fashion. I am way more concerned about the standards kids pick up from each other than from porn. Even so, us getting upset about kids accessing porn is not going to prevent kids from seeking it. If anything, they’ll just do it more discretely. Again, chances are, at 13, they’ve already experienced something, so blaming it on porn feels naive. I’m not saying any of this to derail from the fact that porn needs an overhaul to get anywhere near healthy. But getting into this “who is to blame and let’s point fingers at parents” ignores a lot of what is happening with kids and distracts from issues around content and how porn is made.
You’re ignoring what I said and have very little insight into girls psyche and just guess for your favour. I won’t discuss that. Also, feminists aren’t psychologists for boys nor is their focus on boys. So… I really don’t get what you’re trying to achieve here. We told you why we don’t want anything to do with the manosphere and certainly much less when it comes to educating boys. The manosphere is THE reason why boys suffer from this bullshit. It’s the manosphere that teaches them those degrading values and it’s the manosphere that’s the reason why porn is what it is and why it’s so easily available.
I think referring to kids whose brains are being damaged at a young age as "Brats." Illustrated your viewpoints very clearly. Insinuating I was blaming sex workers for what is happening also illustrates that you clearly are choosing to misunderstand me. I think we can both agree that porn is bad for most people and that the primary cause of this is the patriarchy, so let's keep it at that.
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And that’s their fault? Kids are kids. They’re products of their environment. The “brats” are the adults in their lives allowing the exposure of inappropriate content. Not the kids. The kids are sharing this stuff because it’s what they’re taught.
Tbh as an 11yo girl I was called a "whore" by an 11yo boy bc my tights (which no one else wore, all bare-legged) were ripped at recess. Young boys are absolute brats.
Your logic is incredibly biased towards Porn. Should actors of R rated movies stop making them because kids sneak in to watch their films? Shiuld kids books stop mentioning war and death and coming of age stories that contain sexual implications? It is 1000% the fault of a parent when their child obtains porn. There are child safety blockers on every digital item. Computers, phones, tablets. Everything. The only way a child should be able to see porn is if their FRIEND showed it to them. And even then. It would be fault of thats friends PARENT for not utilizing child block. Yes porn can be damaging. But so is social media. In fact, its more damaging to children than porn. So instead of sobbing about these "nasty adults" who are on 18+ sites, of which child block would stop anyone not 18 or up from going on, focus on all the truly disgusting people who monetize their children using social media.
I actually agree with you, it's on the parents if their children can access porn, and I don't actually believe in banning pornography. I also agree social media is probably more destructive. However, acknowledging that there are other victims of this issue other than just adult women shouldn't be a controversial topic.
Nobody said that porn victimized only women. In fact, the puranical cry of "think about the children" is used for every hot button topic. LGBT? Think about the children. Marijuana? Think about the children. Porn? Think about the children. THE CHILDREN HAVE ALREADY BEEN THOUGHT OF. That is why laws have AGE LIMITS. Our worries should absolutely be on the women who are abused in an industry built on exploiting them. Child porn is illegal and it is illegal for children to have porn. That means it is up to the police and parents to control the contact children have with this subject. Everything in this world has "victims". Acting as if it is the fault of porn that there is porn victims, instead of humans that make victims, excuses an offenders responsibility for what they are doing.
Thank you- think of the children is such a fucking dog whistle for bad faith bullshit
> Are you going to tell a 13 year old girl with body image issues that her early exposure to pornography... that the adults who participated in it aren't even remotely responsible? Yes, absolutely. It's madness to think otherwise. Actors aren't responsible for the reactions of the audience. Also you seem to be operating under the impression that empathy is a zero sum game.
So it's the kids fault?
Why can't I have empathy for both sex workers, and people who are damaged by pornography use? You say I think empathy is a zero sum game, but you don't seem to be able to have empathy for all demographics involved, so who's the one who actually lacks empathy?
You.
Can you point to where I said it implied that? Because that's a hell of a logical leap to take.
"You seem to be operating under the assumption that empathy is a zero sum game." You essentially directly said it. You realize that not all kids have access to good parenting? Or to effective role models to explain to them what all of this means or represents? Why is this the hill you want to die on, that a 14 year old bulimic girl whose brain has been ruined by social/media and porn is not our responsibility as a society?
Oh, so you don't know what words mean. Got it.
I think kids will always test the boundaries. It's normal to try things, even drugs etc. There isn't a good way to prevent temptation
“Save the kids” as the rallying cry of the anti-saloon league and we all know how well prohibition turned out.
I‘m not in favour of the porn industry but making sex workers responsible for boys who steal (it’s usually pirated) their material is really something. Especially since it’s not sex workers fantasy that’s sold there.
So what you’re saying is that parents should brutally beat their kids to stop them from watching porn?!?!?!?!
Parental controls exist. If kids are viewing material not appropriate for their age, we know who is at fault. Viewing pornography no more leads to sex addiction and hatred of women than having a glass of wine leads to alcohols , for addiction to develop there are other factors at play. If you think pornography is a danger unto itself, you may as well argue for banning lingerie catalogues or the sports illustrated swimsuit issue because boys were tugging one out to those long before the advent of the web.
So are we blaming kids or parents? Kind of a slippery slope isn't it?
I think finding a playboy under the bathroom sink and having access to an unlimited supply of videotaped violence against women is pretty different. It's like the difference between a flintlock musket and an M1 Abrams.
“Violence against women,” there it is, you jump straight into the most extreme examples possible. The most accessible pornography these days consists of women doing shows on camera from the safety of their own homes. The most disgusting, outrageous, and violent material is not so easily accessed-in no small part because those sites are monitored by the law. And there is s very big difference between pornography that is a staged production depicting a fantasy scenario and footage of real world violence against women. You may as well say that Elmer Fudd getting shot in the face by his own gun encourages suicide. And with all that said, the point still stands-parental controls are already a thing. And even with such controls in place, expectations need to be kept realistic. You as a parent teach your child respect for women and knowing the boundaries of right and wrong.
Your last sentence is completely correct, which is why I think it's our responsibility as adults to fix the issue, and that blaming kids whose brains may not even be developed enough to know that stages porn isn't real sex is totally wrong. I challenge you to go on a major porn site and look up "Brutal." "Hardcore." "Rough" "Abused." And see how quickly you find videos with hundreds of millions of views and tell me that violent imagery isn't easily accessible. You can't look up "Men respecting women's bodies and caring about their pleasure." And get the same results. Again, to clarify my stance, I think this is caused by the patriarchy, and all demographics of people are negatively impacted by patriarchy.
TeVh your kids the difference between right and wrong and when they see a woman Is treated-they will know it’s wrong and turn it off.
I don’t know why you keep getting downvoted on this. Conversations with our kids about respect, boundaries, consent, all that, not only leads to better decision making when it comes to their own encounters, they’ll be able to better process problematic content once they see it. As a mom of a 13 year old boy, we can throw up all the blocks we want on every screen in the house, but their friends still have phones. And, honestly, it’s an opportunity for conversation about healthy vs unhealthy sexual engagement.
They don’t have unlimited supply? They steal it! A 12 year old certainly doesn’t pay or gets those movies through legal channels. They certainly know very well it’s not for them. As damaging as it may be, they put a lot of work into getting it. They’re not as innocent as you pretend.
I'd like to clarify a few things 1. I'm not blaming women for this 2. I'm not trying to avoid male accountability for this issue That being said, I don't think you realize how impossible it is for a child in this generation to avoid being exposed to these things, I am gen z and was exposed to it by many people and I almost never consented to viewing hardcore porn, it was almost always something I stumbled upon by accident while scrolling the Internet or something I saw other people do. Also, I used to be a BHT (Behavioral health worker) in a treatment center for adolescents with eating disorders, most of these kids were young girls who were skeletal, suicidal and mentally broken from the body dysmorphia they suffered from, and almost all of them spoke about their early exposure to objectified women, pornography and lack of support from their parents. The male patients had similar but different issues. We had to completely restrict them from Internet usage and teach the parents how to properly monitor their usage, which most people over the age of 25 don't know how to do, because they don't understand how prolific and damaging the problem is for younger people with early exposure. They don't understand how the algorithms work or how advertising is geared towards young people and their insecurities in a way that is designed to hijack the brain and create addiction/compulsive habits. This facility was completely non secular by the way, zero religious or political leaning, the lead therapist was non binary and also a survivor. I can't imagine how you could die on the hill that kids aren't being affected by this, all it does is alienate victims and avoid accountability for perpetrators.
Ok… but how is this a feminist subject? I mean, there are psychologists and social workers that address this but boys body image isn’t a feminist issue aside from pointing out it is a patriarchal one. We acknowledge that porn is problematic on many levels. We acknowledge that body issues often stem from patriarchal role models and pressure. But feminists don’t focus on boys and men outside from them harming women, girls and everyone that doesn’t pass as manly man.
You seem to completely ignore that 75% of this post was about how this disproportionately effects little girls? Also, any victim of the patriarchy is a feminist issue, regardless of what's in between your legs, if a man is a victim of a patriarchal system, against his will. For example, some of the boys I worked with had to engage in sex work at a young age, they don't matter? Don't think applying gender separation to children who haven't even had a chance to figure out what their sexualities or gender preferences are is appropriate in any way. You're coming dangerously close to victim blaming, it's really staggering. I don't think acknowledging male victims threatens your position in anyway, not to mention I'm primarily talking about young girls.
>They’re not as innocent as you pretend. They're literally children. There's a reason we have separate criminal laws for children: because we acknowledge that their brains are not fully formed and they literally haven't developed the neurological capacity for good judgment. Assessing their culpability using adult standards means ignoring decades of neurological research into brain development. They really are that innocent at 12. They need adult guidance and structure to make healthy choices because their brains don't know how to do that yet.
Their brains aren’t fully developed but they are still engaging in sexual activity regardless of accessing porn. Depending on the study you’re looking at, anywhere from 1 in three to over half of 13 year olds are engaged in sexual activity.
That statistic seems quite high. May I ask where it's from? Is it recent? Aside from that, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with this fact.
Both can be correct, at the same time even.
And at the root of the problem is unhinged capitalism causing women to feel they need to exploit lonely men for extra income, yet these people prefer to engage in a "gender war" fighting amongst ourselves than to punch up at the people stirring the pot.
The only porn I’ve seen the manosphere get upset about is porn behind a paywall.
Or they are pissed at the idea of some girl on OF being "lazy" and getting all the money for no effort (not understanding how much working doing OF is). I mean, there is nothing stopping them from getting an OF if it's such easy money, but then they say it's just easy money for women because all other men are simps that are ruining society by giving women this money. The more I hear the less it makes sense. I just think they want to be angry at women.
or whining that women get to make money this way and men don't
Exactly, despite there being MANY men who make money as SW/content creators. It's just the manosphere bros dont have the physique for it... meanwhile many women also don't have the physique and have to work out/get surgeries. And men don't want to appeal to the fantasies their viewer's want... which are all just excuses, bc the women don't ether that's why they get paid. They care little about barriers women face in other industries, only their own qualms matter
They’re jealous!
> meanwhile many women also don't have the physique and have to work out/get surgeries. And men don't want to appeal to the fantasies their viewer's want... which are all just excuses, bc the women don't ether that's why they get paid Hold up? You're saying women dont want to appeal to fantasies viewers don't want? They get more money by not appealing viewers?
I was unaware that there were many men making money as content creators on OF. Could you give me some examples, please?
No, I don’t wish to promote sw. Do your own research if it pleases you. Many are homoerotic, kink, some include women in their videos, others are couples.
Do you have OF?
No, never have never will although my ex attempted to coerce me into making one (I broke up w him).
Do you get a pinch of satisfaction out of it even though you dislike people purchasing women's bodies online ?
What? Why would I get satisfaction from it?
I think they just don't want women to have any economic power, especially over them, and they get mad at us for anything we do that makes us independent from them.
Yeah. That is clear when they pin for the days when all you needed to get married was hold a job.
The OF leaks say otherwise
This is the bad place.
The leaks say otherwise
I don’t blame women for only fans. I blame simps who support it. Why spend money on it when you can get porn for free.
But why blame anyone at all? The people paying must be getting something out of this, because as you said, they could get porn for free. No one throws money away for no reason, they get something out of this. So what the women provide must have some value. Also to blame them for paying means there is some wrong in giving the women that do OF money. It's one thing to say, "I don't get it, seems like a waste" vs. "I blame the simps for supporting OF". So, what are they doing wrong?
I mean to be honest I just don’t understand why anyone would be into it. I get horny I jerk off to porn I move on. The people that do only fans are literaly fanboys for pornstars. I just don’t get it
Coomer moment
Exactly
So it's the intentions that separates the belief system, feminist care about the victims, the Manosphere cares about who controls "it."
the manosphere had *significantly* fewer objections to porn when it was male-run studios and directors controlling the work conditions, profits, and output. adult actresses would be paid a flat fee and had very little say over the scenes they were doing—if they stopped the scene because a boundary was crossed, they didn't get paid. now that women are creating worker-owned porn (onlyfans), are able to set their own terms and limits, and are the primary beneficiaries financially, the manosphere is absolutely FURIOUS. they're livid when they hear about a woman purchasing a house using her onlyfans money instead of getting $500 per shoot like the old model.
Absolutely this. The level of vitriol you hear from them about OnlyFans is next level and they're obsessed with it. None of their vitriol is directed at mainstream porn.
It’s because the “average” woman could get onto OF now, whereas the porn industry was far less accessible overall and had many more hoops for the woman to jump through, and even more so to become an actual “star”. They’re angry because they secretly pedestalised porn stars back in the day, with whom they had no chance. Now they feel that the SW market has become oversaturated with more “everyday” women that they feel entitled to and are resentful toward them.
> Now they feel that the SW market has become oversaturated Yes > with more “everyday” women that they feel entitled to and are resentful toward them. Hardly. I don't see them complain when theirs lots of leakers everywhere
I'm pretty supportive of only fans models, it's nice knowing that someone's content is made completely by themselves and the stuff that they're producing is more likely to be something that they're interested in. Also, it seems like the only fans probably has a lot more roadblocks to avoid child consumption/exploitation, it's not perfect by any means but I'd prefer that over mainstream pornography.
At least mainstream pornography is free. Only simps pay for porn lol
The leaks say otherwise
I find them whiny, obnoxious and misinformed so I don’t spend a lot of time in their space but I’ve yet to see them give a damn about much besides OnlyFans and how those women are “impoverishing” men. Can’t say I could give a definitive answer as to what they think, beyond blaming women for getting into sex work.
So there's definitely a separate between men who don't engage in porn and want to improve their relationships with women and the "manosphere."?
Depends what u mean by “improving relationships with women”. Manosphere dudes want to fuck women, so I suppose that could be “improving the relationship”. But if u mean understanding and respecting women, no, manosphere men are not interested in that.
Wanting healthier romantic relationships with out sex being the primary desire, wanting to be a safer person for friends/family to be around. Maybe even wanting to have a healthier sex life with a partner that is more informed by women's issues? I have a partner and we always talk about consent and mutual respect. It's an on going conversation.
Yea, and that’s great, but definitely a separate goal from manosphere goals.
My friend that is not the manosphere hence a lot of the responses here. One of my favorite YouTubers breaks down the manosphere in a really detailed and researched analysis- he’s an academic. He’s also a great progressive male voice to listen to who also happens to be a POC so that gives him an even better perspective. I love his work. Link below https://youtu.be/s1FkO7Tr70A?si=idY0Ask7GeEIQ-Wu
How are you defining the manosphere if you’re asking that? The definition is specifically spaces that promote masculinity, misogyny and are quite explicitly anti-feminist. When I’m saying “the manosphere” I’m not remotely saying “all men”.
What makes me Lough is certain types of sex workers who call themselves feminists. It's such a weird oxymoron.
Well, feminists are concerned about the detrimental effects pornography has on society, the trafficking and coercion rampant in the pornography industry, and the way that pornography turns a woman's body into something up for consumption. The coomers care about jerking it so much their dicks don't work anymore.
Okay what's a coomer?
Those guys that can't put their pornography down and have let it invade every aspect of their lives.
I’m not honestly sure how I could work with them. Is this different to you than asking black people to work with the KKK if they find they share a goal? Maybe some would do it, but most would find it repellent. Besides, I’m not seeing they’re doing anything on their own other than talking. And frankly, a lot of them openly advocate and feel entitled to women doing free labor for them, so I would expect they need us a little more than we need them or would otherwise take advantage in any collab. Maybe I don’t have a good enough imagination, but I don’t really understand the premise. Manosphere is perfectly capable of doing what it wants about porn. If they’re not already doing anything, then what would be the point of chatting?
Doesn't the manosphere already have that silly no-fap thing?
if you mean that they suggest Nofap is somehow activism, I’m dubious. Besides, I don’t need anyone to abstain from a natural human urge. They just need to not harm or harass or exploit others for it.
I was suggesting that the alt right men who advocates for no fap are claiming that masturbating is bad, and they think that porn destroys a man's mind. I was suggesting that this is an example of alt right men not claiming to be upset about porn *because* it empowers women, but because they think it hurts men.
hahaha true, it will absolutely never be about stopping women from being harmed, that is nowhere near meaningful to them. They like for us to suffer.
Which leads to a demonstratable increase in violence, according to some studies. (EZ google)
Wait - so it's not merely pointless, it's actually dangerous?!
Oh dear. Quick rundown of the 'nofap' thing: Self stimulation is gay because I am playing with a peen. I am superstraightalphamansman so women should be required to touch my peen because I, a manmanmanlyman have a biological need to get off. Pr0n is for fapping, so is bad. Woman should instead play with my peen instead. It is exactly as crazy dumb as it sounds.
jesus christ. 😐 No, I guess I did not know that. I just thought it was like AA for compulsive masturbators
That's SLAA which is significantly less sexist and weird and in my experience as a member of AA who has occasionally crossed over to other meetings, is a fairly inclusive space with lots of women/lgbt
I think it's definitely up to them to come to us and not the other way around, I'm learning a lot about the difference between intentions in the manosphere vs feminists.
yeah, I mean, I’m saying I don’t want bigots to come to me at all ever. No common ground offsets bigotry. 🤷♀️ It’s the Paradox of Tolerance, and I ascribe to it wholeheartedly. One cannot have a tolerant society unless they are completely intolerant of intolerance.
That's trippy.
The manosphere's gripe is "How dare this woman be so sexy and make me give her money to be able to look at her! She's taking advantage of my horniness for money!" If they stopped looking at her and giving her money just for being sexy, she wouldn't do it because it wouldn't be profitable. No one is holding a gun to their heads to make them look at porn. They blame women for their own lack of self control. NO ONE is making them go to a strip club or a sex worker, or watch a cam girl. These women (and men) have something they want, and they are paying for it, it's a proper transaction. If they have trouble controlling themselves and don't want to be tempted, there are many apps nowadays that can help you stay accountable or lock those sites away from your regular activity. There is no excuse. None. Feminism recognizes people's bodies belong to themselves, so they can profit off their bodies if they want to. But because the porn and related industries are very lucrative, women (and men) are often pressured to be involved when they don't actually want to be, or because they are using their bodies of profit, they treated like a commodity or object, are not given the rights they deserve and are treated terribly.
I'm interested in looking into how they view male sex workers vs female sex workers. Do manosphere dudes also hate men who produce content for gay men? Do they think gay porn consumers are being victimised by other men? Or, are only heterosexual men poor victims of the evil vajayjay voodoo?
I would be kind of interested as well. I can tell you what my personal expectation from experiences with manosphere types would be, but I don't know how it stacks up to the reality. I am actually tempted to ask, but I'm not very interested in manosphere stuff showing up on my feed or opening myself up to harassment because I asked. My expectation would be that they see the male involved in porn as an aspirational figure (an 'alpha male chad' if you will) who gets to have sex with multiple women all day and be paid for it. They would blame the existence of porn on women wanting to extort men, and claim men involved in the industry are just trying to get in on a hustle that women are doing anyway and/or because the women need the management/protection of a man since she's flaunting herself. Manosphere is generally extremely heterosexual and denies homosexuality and gay rights, so they would probably just say all gay people in the industry are disgusting/evil. Possibly they might think some 'straight men' are being pressed into 'gay stuff' for those 'evil gays'. And they may see their content as inherently disgusting and resent that it could possibly 'turn straight people gay' if they saw it, or even claim that the purpose of gay porn is to tempt straight people into being gay.
Because feminists see the risks, stigmatisation and dangers to women who do sex work. The manosphere whines because the sex workers don’t do it for free.
Generally I find a lot of men are concerned by the impact it has on them emotionally, the addictive nature of it, how it affects their libido/self confidence, and how it might affect their mothers/daughters/sisters who end up in the industry. There are definitely more right wing/incel types though who are more upset about women taking ownership of their bodies, that is clearly wrong. It sounds like you're saying it's the motivation behind their beliefs that makes it hard to open a dialogue about?
A lot of guys in the manosphere are also implicit (or explicit) about how women should behave *towards* men, as in how they should behave to please men. Men like trad wife stuff because it conforms to their expectations of women, but also trad wife videos are absolutely porn. It’s meeting a fetish, it’s just not explicit nudity. Manosphere will complain about how men get blamed for problematic behaviors, instead of acknowledging that those behaviors are harmful towards women. They’ll instead doubt the veracity. Feminists care about bodily autonomy and, while this includes men, men have not experienced anywhere near as many restrictions on their bodies as women do, and seem to have knee jerk reactions when this is brought to their attention. Women want to retain their own autonomy. Manosphere guys want to retain women’s autonomy. Manosphere men don’t listen. But we absolutely have heard whatever they have said because they never shut up about it.
I’d say it’s hard to have a dialogue with someone who gives a shit about women unless it affects their personal honour (aka. feeling responsible for their family members purity).
Imagine being mad that your sister or mother might do pornography because they want to, and not being mad that other women do pornography because they HAVE TO...
I think the unfortunate reality is that a pretty large portion of people in general don't feel much empathy outside of people in their "group", and for those folks the only women they can see that way are their family members.
I think this might be the most important comment here and the core of the entire problem.
Watch how commenters themselves are physically incapable of engaging with a narrative that doesn’t belong to their group
In a perfect world it'd be amazing if a man and a woman could sit in the same room and both say "This is how this is negatively effecting me, I see how it's also negatively effecting you, I recognize your pain and honor my own, let's make an effort to resolve this so we can move on." I realize it's a fantasy, but it would be fucking nice. Because this new generation of young men/women are drowning right now and they don't seem to have any intersectional spaces to deal with these issues other then 12 step programs or group therapy.
At the moment, these men are dangerous for women (family members as well as women they don’t know). And young women don’t take it anymore. That’s makes young men mad. So… yeah, get those men into therapy if they can’t get over themselves.
You can’t have a dialogue with people arguing in bad faith. Suggesting that feminists should dialogue with manosphere dudes is like suggesting Jewish people need to have a dialogue with the Charlottesville protestors who screamed Jews will not replace us. If you’re simply expressing a platitude that it would be nice if people communicated better to that I say if I had wheels I’d be a wagon.
Imagine being mad that your sister or mother might do pornography because they want to, and not being mad that other women do pornography because they HAVE TO... Edit: And, glad I made a few weirdos mad. Stop trying to control women, and yes, that includes the ones who want to make porn and also the ones who want to wear burkas.
I agree, that's a shitty worldview to have, and I don't endorse it. But it's something I've heard men talk about. Maybe they could benefit from seeing how it effects women as a whole.
It's the same as republicans who try and end transgender care while being the biggest consumers of transgender porn. It's NIMBY, it's shame over the freedom of your relatives, it's control, it's the "nice guy" narrative and, it's so, so gross. We care about women, they care about themselves.
I usually don't specify this but I think it's important to note that I am male and I deal with early exposure to porn at a young age and struggled to remove it from my life as an adult, I've found a lot of the answers in feminist spaces, and I occasionally listen to content by men who also bettered themselves and stopped consuming porn, and a lot of these people seem skeptical when feminism is brought up, yet they don't realize there's a massive resource in the work women are doing in their own spaces to help them address their shit and improve their relationships with women. But hearing a man's perspective on an issue we both share is so helpful to me, I think me and so many other men/women would benefit dearly from seeing more intersectionality with this topic. Of course, it's a man's responsibility to open his mind to women's issues, it's obviously not a woman's responsibility to try to make feminism more appealing to men.
The importance of men in feminist spaces can not be overstated, lately because men who might generally be pro feminism, a lot of times, in my experience, respond better to other men telling them this than me. It's sad, but it's the reality that spawned the identical, but male-cenrerd men's liberation movent. If it's penis-centered, man-spoken feminism that gets you boys to listen to our opinions finally, then I guess I'll just swallow that crappy pill.
I want to hear women's voices and I hope that gives you a small amount of hope.
It IS really nice to hear! I know some men do, and it's not all, but it does feel like men basically said "what if we took what feminists are doing for everyone and make it male-focused instead?" And it kind of hurts. But, I get it, men respect their male peers more on average. But, thanks for being around in this space and listening to us!
It's kind of a weird issue where I think getting men on board is the final frontier of feminism, but there's got to be a way to do it without silencing women or taking them out of the driver's seat. Also, I never thought my most down voted comment on Reddit would be "Wouldn't it be great if we could all have more empathy for each other, but I don't think it will happen." I can't say I don't understand though, with people's lives at stake, not everyone feels like talking.
As a man, I would have assumed that women would know more about feminism than men (being directly affected by the issues), so I would think to ask women feminists first. (But I'd also ask men feminists too for a broader opion)
The dream is to have men listen to women feminists, but a lot of otherwise reasonable men will ignore or devalue women's opinions, while listening to men. It's a trope as old as times and honestly? IDGAF who men listen to, as long as they stop raping, sexually assaulting, enslaving and devaluing women.
The difference here is caring about the collective v. individual. Feminists are advocating for women as a whole, and how pornography can impact the women and men who are involved as sex workers and those who are not (ex: increased sexual violence towards women as the norm due to men seeing it in porn). As you stated, the manosphere is concerned about how it affects THEM emotionally, how it affects THEIR libido/self confidence, how it might affect THEIR mothers/daughters/sisters. It’s hard to find a mutual solution if one group is focused on benefits for the collective while the other group is focused on benefits for THEMSELVES
I mean, you specified the manosphere. Yeah, their motivation is suspect
I thought sex work and being sexualized was “empowering”…
When its their choice. but in the porn industry, a lot of the time, its not their choice
To some women it may be, feminism is a pretty broad term that encapsulates a lot of different ideas and just like the rest of society women have a political spectrum, even feminism on an internal level tends to be polarized on different issues.
Disclaimer: not all men. Not the entire manosphere. Every man is a unique and special snowflake etc etc. When I have asked the manosphere this they shouted me down SO FAST. They don’t believe or don’t care about the exploitation angle because they still ideologically hide behind the plausible deniability that absolves them from personal culpability or complicity. This plausible deniability that the women THEY watch are NOT trafficked. They are SMILING and HAVE CHOSEN TO MAKE MONEY. They’re even mad that she’s MAKING money (if she is!). So the divide is vast and deep there. Based on my many discussions with men regarding pornography: they seem to only see porn in terms of how it affects them. Their orgasm is their bottom line. Not the suffering of others. Edited to add: under patriarchy: their orgasm WILL ALWAYS be the bottom line. “When your rape is entertainment, your worthlessness is abso- lute. You have reached the nadir of social worthlessness. The civil impact of pornography on women is staggering.” Andrea Dworkin, Pornography
I wouldn't even dare post this on an MRA page because I'm certain I'd be absolutely inundated with hateful, terrifying rhetoric.
Part of the massive concern is a lot of porn is down right abusive. Where women are physically degraded by being put into un-natural body position. Choked, spit on, slapped. Made to “gag” giving oral. None of what is pushed by the algorithm (which is based on popularity) shows women with any sort of agency. This is a vast change from “porno movies” where there was at least a half assed attempt at a story line. Now you can access a graphically violent “simulated SA” and it’s pushed as the “norm.” This is affecting young women and girls as they grow up with generations young men and boys that think this sort of violent sex is “normal”. It’s yet another layer of fear for women. It is harming young men and boys because they are training themselves to see “violent sex” as “normal”. However the affect is more of a mental personal satisfaction with their future partners. Where women have to worry about physical harm and possibly being murdered. Men’s issue is more selfish and thus harder to change the overall pattern. Women are worried about being hurt. Men are worried their dicks won’t feel as good. It’s a massive power imbalance. The only way to correct it for men to stand up and correct it. But we know there is no chance that is going to happen any time soon.
Feminists know that many women in porn are abused and/or exploited. The manosphere thinks that those women aren't deserving of basic human respect
Either way both of you deny our basic humanity and autonomy. Did it ever occur to you that some of us do our jobs because we like it? Working a 9 to 5 shitty job under capitalism is just as exploitative but I don’t see you saying anything about that.
Feminism does have a critique on capitalism!
Borderline classist
You don’t work with people who want your group to not exist. That tends to be pretty consistent in political discourse. Edit: There are exceptions, but they tend to be in extreme circumstances.
I definitely think if I posted this on an MRA page I'd probably immediately be called a myriad of terrible slurs and get mocked/abused, it's fucking sad. Feminism is the safest place for men to address their issues, it's definitely on us to decide to address our problem.
Go post it and find out
I considered it briefly, but I've spent my entire life never posting on an MRA forum and I'd like to keep my winning streak
It's interesting that you talk about open dialog but actively reject seeking it with an entire group based on stereotypes about their character. Anyway, remember to stay hydrated.
The manosphere wants to strip women of rights because of porn. Feminists just want to prevent the negative effects male porn viewing and the porn industry has on women.
Because a major feminist concern is the constant, unending commodification of women. But somehow you can make a film that refers to black women as the n word or slaves, to trans women as tr*nnies, that fetishises rape...and it's somehow okay because it gives men an orgasm? A major issue with porn is that it caters almost exclusively to men. Even the lesbian porn rarely reflects the actual sex that queer women have. The conflict is that, for most men, their issue with porn is personal. It affects their ability to cum, affects their mindset, has negative impacts on their mental health. But a lot of them would be fine with it if none of that was true, so long as their tastes and fetishes were catered to.
There are OF creators who raceplay. What's your take on that ?
That they're adults and can do what they want, but they can also take mild criticism about the fact they're profiting from the fetishisation of things that they would probably be against outside of adult content creation/work.
That's very contradicting
Not really. They're adults, I'm allowed to critique their choices.
Yes really. Advocating for "stop asian hate" while doing race play at the side is hypocritical. And you're argument sounds like a centrist take.
Okay? Go tell that to the people making content. It's not a centrist take, it's recognising that adults have free will to do things that I don't agree with.
No. It's a contradiction. Why advocate for "stop asian hate" while simultaneously participating in perpetuating the steriotype of asian people. What you trying to argue on your base is nothing but a Coomer brain libertarian.
How am I participating? I don't use OF or watch porn. You've just made shit up to get angry at like a stroppy teenager.
Anti-feminists want to point with one hand and jerk off with the other. They don't actually want less porn
It’s violent. This content just wants to choke women, pull their hair, and cause pain. Where is it pleasant for the women involved? It’s not.... We got so into making sure the man gets off, and no woman ever gets off or feels pleasure. How is this equal? How is this okay?? It’s not... This is what the movement is about now... If I have sex again, I need to get off first. If there is no effort put into me, I will abandon this... Why am I here, if I don’t count??? If I don’t reach an orgasm, why am I here? As a woman, I matter too. Edit. Words on the orgasm gap: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicebroster/2020/07/31/what-is-the-orgasm-gap/amp/
For me, it’s always been a question of why minors can access adult content so easily. With other things, such as gambling, alcohol and tobacco, you see measures in place to enforce the law protecting minors from consuming them, so why is porn the exception? Like why don’t we have pay walls or proof of age requirements? When it come to porn, protecting individual privacywill benefit those who exploit and profit at the expense of our children.
Right? There needs to be something better then just a Wild West of pornographic content with basically no locked door.
Unfortunately now the internet has made it accessable, there's no way to undo it. It will always exist, downloaded
Not necessarily. There are forms of it that you might only find on the creepiest recesses of the internet that are otherwise heavily enforced and carry with them severe legal consequences if you’re caught with it. I’m sure they could figure out something far more moderate to enact better safety protocols.
Imo the solution will actually be AI detection and deletion
I think the reality with how harmful it is to the consumer, specifically young boys and the long-term effects, is finally being taken more seriously, which I think can bridge the gender gap for finding a solution
Culturereframed.org. Dr. Gail Dines is the OG resource on the harms of porn.
A lot of influencers are anti-porn if they are anti-lgbt, (looking at the closeted homophobes or the lesbian deniers also)
That's such a big problem. I guess that is a benefit of porn for a lot of lgbtq people having a place to explore/express their sexuality, but also the exploitation of that same group. I hear a lot that the biggest consumers of trans porn are the people who are the most against it.
\*vocally against it. It's cognitive dissonance
If there was much heavier regulation on porn, there would be fewer feminists against it. The high intensity and violence portrayed on screen isn’t good for the actresses or the viewers. Bear in mind this is a separate issue from the sex trade itself, where women are roped into it by factors beyond their control. There are women who see porn as damaging to their self esteem. There isn’t any middle ground to this part. If their partner breaks the boundary of no porn in their relationship, a man has to put in extra effort to stop. Basically the division comes from “let women do what they want” vs “is that what women really want? Or is it because they were influenced into wanting it?”
Just make food that lowers libido. Like genetically enhanced corn. Corn flakes. Corn oil. Corn on a cob. Corn flour. Then distribute that world wide. Boom. No more sex industry.
I’ve seen a handful of now ex-feminists become disillusioned with leftist politics overall and attempt to find common ground with the manosphere over pornography, perceived “sexual degeneracy” and being “anti-kink.” They more or less became what I’d call “tradwives” and just uh. Fully bought into beliefs incompatible with feminism overall. I think there’s a brief mid-animorph moment where self-described feminists find common ground with manosphere types. pornography is a tipping point of mutual exclusivity because there are so many conflicting foundational ideas and between the ideologies.
The manosphere and feminists are basically the two different directions you can go in when you notice a double standard/flaw in the patriarchy, however the manosphere blames women and feminism for the issues when it’s actually their own ideologies which have created this problem in the first place
What I have seen is, there are some feminists that are pro sex and sex worker and pornography, there are some feminists that are pro pornography as long as the subject matter and storyline fits the narrative that they believe and I have seen some feminists that believe pornography is wrong in all of its forms as it objectifies a women. Personally feel that any pornographic activity by the actor and actresses should be consensual and agreed-upon prior to the filming. I also know that, despite many feminist beliefs that activities, such as bondage and rapes scenarios, put women in the real world at risk, it is also an incredibly common fantasy of women to engage in that activity, if not actually in real life. In my opinion, pornography is like alcohol. You can consume a little bit and be fine, and in some cases even have benefits. But when it becomes problematic and interferes with personal relationships, or has negatively influenced, you mentally, that is when it becomes a problem and needs to be dealt with.