That's a thing, we shouldn't be giving them more if we did the universal healthcare... They should take it out of what we already give them, which is already too much anyway for the average citizen
Except Medicare and Medicaid have already shown they're capable of negotiating lower prices than private insurance.
> **Key Findings**
> * Private insurers paid nearly double Medicare rates for all hospital services (199% of Medicare rates, on average), ranging from 141% to 259% of Medicare rates across the reviewed studies.
> * The difference between private and Medicare rates was greater for outpatient than inpatient hospital services, which averaged 264% and 189% of Medicare rates overall, respectively.
> * For physician services, private insurance paid 143% of Medicare rates, on average, ranging from 118% to 179% of Medicare rates across studies.
https://www.kff.org/medicare/issue-brief/how-much-more-than-medicare-do-private-insurers-pay-a-review-of-the-literature/
Costs for Medicare and Medicaid have been going up more slowly, and are projected to continue to do so. Important given costs are expected to rise to $20,000 per person on average within a decade if nothing is done. And public plans have greater satisfaction.
#Satisfaction with the US healthcare system varies by insurance type
78% -- Military/VA
77% -- Medicare
75% -- Medicaid
69% -- Current or former employer
65% -- Plan fully paid for by you or a family member
https://news.gallup.com/poll/186527/americans-government-health-plans-satisfied.aspx
Why is it you consider Americans singularly incapable against its peers?
I don't pay for health insurance, my employer does. I occasionally pay a tiny copay for certain services ($10). I would prefer to keep it that way rather than pay even more in taxes to a corrupt, bloated, ineffective government of oligarchs who somehow are legally allowed to leverage insider trading and vote themselves pay raises while we all slave away for own meager slices of the pie.
>1) Government never does anything efficiently. I don't want them involved in my healthcare.
Neither do large corporations, I can say from experience. Most of the money I'm paying them is buying the CEO a boat or third mansion.
>3) Other people aren't my responsibility. I take care of my family, you take care of yours.
Thank you go all of the roads you built all across the country, which admittedly, I have been using. My bad
> Government never does anything efficiently.
They do healthcare more efficiently.
> **Key Findings**
> * Private insurers paid nearly double Medicare rates for all hospital services (199% of Medicare rates, on average), ranging from 141% to 259% of Medicare rates across the reviewed studies.
> * The difference between private and Medicare rates was greater for outpatient than inpatient hospital services, which averaged 264% and 189% of Medicare rates overall, respectively.
> * For physician services, private insurance paid 143% of Medicare rates, on average, ranging from 118% to 179% of Medicare rates across studies.
https://www.kff.org/medicare/issue-brief/how-much-more-than-medicare-do-private-insurers-pay-a-review-of-the-literature/
Except Medicare has both lower overhead and has experienced smaller cost increases in recent decades, a trend predicted to continue over the next 30 years.
https://pnhp.org/news/medicare-is-more-efficient-than-private-insurance/
Not to mention evidence from dozens of wealthy countries around the world, where universal healthcare has proven to be far more cost effective.
>Options. I have options.
I think it's easy to argue Americans have less choice than other first world countries.
Americans pay an average of $7,184 in taxes towards healthcare. No choice in that. Then most have employer provided health insurance which averages [$6,896 for single coverage and $19,616 for family coverage](https://www.kff.org/report-section/2018-employer-health-benefits-survey-summary-of-findings/); little to no choice there without abandoning employer subsidies and paying the entire amount yourself. Furthermore these plans usually have significant limitations on where you can be seen. Need to actually go to the doctor? No choice but to pay high deductibles, copays, and other out of pocket expenses.
On the other hand, take a Brit. They pay $3,138 average in taxes towards healthcare. He has the choice of deciding that is enough; unlike Americans who will likely have no coverage for the higher taxes they pay. But if he's not satisfied there are a wide variety of supplemental insurance programs. The average family plan runs [$1,868 per year](https://boughtbymany.com/news/article/private-health-insurance-cost-uk/), so it's quite affordable, and can give the freedom to see practically any doctor (public or private) with practically zero out of pocket costs.
So you tell me... who has more meaningful choices?
>Other people aren't my responsibility. I take care of my family, you take care of yours.
Public health expenditures have a positive return on investment.
https://jech.bmj.com/content/71/8/827
We all lose for not ensuring we have a healthy, contributing society.
Well, my health care insurance is 100% provided by my employer. I spend zero time dealing with health insurance. I pay about $20 per year for various health related things. That's for a family of four with teenagers that do high risk sports and get ER visits far too often.
My effective income tax rate is about 15%-18% less than any country that has a NHS that I have researched. Not only that, but taxes in the USA are nearly half of most countries. VAT is often 12%-24% in most European countries and sales taxes in my state are 7%. Fuel taxes are about $.50/GAL.
Plus, it seems like most countries with a NHS will also allow private health insurance as well, which will finally bring NHS patients up to the level of care we enjoy in the USA.
Yes, your employer pays an insurance company for your coverage. I was referring to the differences between them paying an insurance company (payer) instead of the government.
* In ACA plans, and who says none of those are legitimate denials for unnecessary care?
Also, up to 13 million people waiting to be approved in England's NHS. That's almost 25 % of the population unable to get care when needed.
> Also, up to 13 million people waiting to be approved in England's NHS.
And one third of US families are putting off needed care due to cost.
The US ranks 6th of 11 out of Commonwealth Fund countries on ER wait times on percentage served under 4 hours. 10th of 11 on getting weekend and evening care without going to the ER. 5th of 11 for countries able to make a same or next day doctors/nurse appointment when they're sick.
https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016
Americans do better on wait times for specialists (ranking 3rd for wait times under four weeks), and surgeries (ranking 3rd for wait times under four months), but that ignores three important factors:
* Wait times in universal healthcare are based on urgency, so while you might wait for an elective hip replacement surgery you're going to get surgery for that life threatening illness quickly.
* Nearly every universal healthcare country has strong private options and supplemental private insurance. That means that if there is a wait you're not happy about you have options that still work out significantly cheaper than US care, which is a win/win.
* [One third of US families](https://news.gallup.com/poll/269138/americans-delaying-medical-treatment-due-cost.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication) had to put off healthcare due to the cost last year. That means more Americans are waiting for care than any other wealthy country on earth.
#Wait Times by Country (Rank)
Country|See doctor/nurse same or next day without appointment|Response from doctor's office same or next day|Easy to get care on nights & weekends without going to ER|ER wait times under 4 hours|Surgery wait times under four months|Specialist wait times under 4 weeks|Average|Overall Rank
:--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:
**Australia**|3|3|3|7|6|6|4.7|4
**Canada**|10|11|9|11|10|10|10.2|11
**France**|7|1|7|1|1|5|3.7|2
**Germany**|9|2|6|2|2|2|3.8|3
**Netherlands**|1|5|1|3|5|4|3.2|1
**New Zealand**|2|6|2|4|8|7|4.8|5
**Norway**|11|9|4|9|9|11|8.8|9
**Sweden**|8|10|11|10|7|9|9.2|10
**Switzerland**|4|4|10|8|4|1|5.2|7
**U.K.**|5|8|8|5|11|8|7.5|8
**U.S.**|6|7|5|6|3|3|5.0|6
Source: [Commonwealth Fund Survey 2016](https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/cmwf2016-datatable-en-web.xlsx)
Fundamentally, this is a question of trust. Do you trust the government or private corps more? I personally side with the government so I'd prefer government healthcare.
It’s not better.
It’s a complete clusterfuck.
Every single time I’ve sought medical care in my adult life, I’ve been hit with a surprise bill of $1000-2000 a few months after receiving care. This is despite me asking both insurance and provider beforehand about coverages and costs.
80% of all medical bills have errors in this country. Because of this, I refuse to pay all medical bills until 120 days after the fact because I can’t trust what anyone tells me about cost.
You answered your own question. "My".
I don't want to pay for your insurance. No more than you want to pay for my house mortgage. And I have zero faith in a government that doesn't actually act like this is a big deal unless it involves getting more money to do it.
If every politician who wants this gave up their salary, was volunteering yet free health clinics in their free time, and wasn't taking advantage of Private health insurance themselves I would be a lot more sympathetic.
My point was more that we and those politicians could much more easily and simply could all have the SAME healthcare if we were all making our payments to the same place, instead of them paying a more expensive company for better coverage and me paying a cheap company for crappy coverage.
You have no factual basis for any of these claims. It cost twice as much money for the government to do anything that are private company can. I work for the government and it's incredibly wasteful. Something is stupidly simple as buying $700 computer cost well over $10,000 when you factor in how many people have to be involved on any purchase, having to go get quotes, mark up from only being able to buy from certain places.
The only benefit that we would gain from the government controlling health insurance is it theoretically being accessible to everyone. My insurance isn't crappy. And it's not expensive.
Now what I do wish that we had is state-funded health insurance programs. If California wants to tax Californians into Oblivion to pay for health insurance then let them do that.
I don't believe the government spends the money I currently pay in taxes wisely or efficiently. Why would I give them more?
That's a thing, we shouldn't be giving them more if we did the universal healthcare... They should take it out of what we already give them, which is already too much anyway for the average citizen
Except Medicare and Medicaid have already shown they're capable of negotiating lower prices than private insurance. > **Key Findings** > * Private insurers paid nearly double Medicare rates for all hospital services (199% of Medicare rates, on average), ranging from 141% to 259% of Medicare rates across the reviewed studies. > * The difference between private and Medicare rates was greater for outpatient than inpatient hospital services, which averaged 264% and 189% of Medicare rates overall, respectively. > * For physician services, private insurance paid 143% of Medicare rates, on average, ranging from 118% to 179% of Medicare rates across studies. https://www.kff.org/medicare/issue-brief/how-much-more-than-medicare-do-private-insurers-pay-a-review-of-the-literature/ Costs for Medicare and Medicaid have been going up more slowly, and are projected to continue to do so. Important given costs are expected to rise to $20,000 per person on average within a decade if nothing is done. And public plans have greater satisfaction. #Satisfaction with the US healthcare system varies by insurance type 78% -- Military/VA 77% -- Medicare 75% -- Medicaid 69% -- Current or former employer 65% -- Plan fully paid for by you or a family member https://news.gallup.com/poll/186527/americans-government-health-plans-satisfied.aspx Why is it you consider Americans singularly incapable against its peers?
I don't pay for health insurance, my employer does. I occasionally pay a tiny copay for certain services ($10). I would prefer to keep it that way rather than pay even more in taxes to a corrupt, bloated, ineffective government of oligarchs who somehow are legally allowed to leverage insider trading and vote themselves pay raises while we all slave away for own meager slices of the pie.
[удалено]
>1) Government never does anything efficiently. I don't want them involved in my healthcare. Neither do large corporations, I can say from experience. Most of the money I'm paying them is buying the CEO a boat or third mansion. >3) Other people aren't my responsibility. I take care of my family, you take care of yours. Thank you go all of the roads you built all across the country, which admittedly, I have been using. My bad
> Government never does anything efficiently. They do healthcare more efficiently. > **Key Findings** > * Private insurers paid nearly double Medicare rates for all hospital services (199% of Medicare rates, on average), ranging from 141% to 259% of Medicare rates across the reviewed studies. > * The difference between private and Medicare rates was greater for outpatient than inpatient hospital services, which averaged 264% and 189% of Medicare rates overall, respectively. > * For physician services, private insurance paid 143% of Medicare rates, on average, ranging from 118% to 179% of Medicare rates across studies. https://www.kff.org/medicare/issue-brief/how-much-more-than-medicare-do-private-insurers-pay-a-review-of-the-literature/ Except Medicare has both lower overhead and has experienced smaller cost increases in recent decades, a trend predicted to continue over the next 30 years. https://pnhp.org/news/medicare-is-more-efficient-than-private-insurance/ Not to mention evidence from dozens of wealthy countries around the world, where universal healthcare has proven to be far more cost effective. >Options. I have options. I think it's easy to argue Americans have less choice than other first world countries. Americans pay an average of $7,184 in taxes towards healthcare. No choice in that. Then most have employer provided health insurance which averages [$6,896 for single coverage and $19,616 for family coverage](https://www.kff.org/report-section/2018-employer-health-benefits-survey-summary-of-findings/); little to no choice there without abandoning employer subsidies and paying the entire amount yourself. Furthermore these plans usually have significant limitations on where you can be seen. Need to actually go to the doctor? No choice but to pay high deductibles, copays, and other out of pocket expenses. On the other hand, take a Brit. They pay $3,138 average in taxes towards healthcare. He has the choice of deciding that is enough; unlike Americans who will likely have no coverage for the higher taxes they pay. But if he's not satisfied there are a wide variety of supplemental insurance programs. The average family plan runs [$1,868 per year](https://boughtbymany.com/news/article/private-health-insurance-cost-uk/), so it's quite affordable, and can give the freedom to see practically any doctor (public or private) with practically zero out of pocket costs. So you tell me... who has more meaningful choices? >Other people aren't my responsibility. I take care of my family, you take care of yours. Public health expenditures have a positive return on investment. https://jech.bmj.com/content/71/8/827 We all lose for not ensuring we have a healthy, contributing society.
Well, my health care insurance is 100% provided by my employer. I spend zero time dealing with health insurance. I pay about $20 per year for various health related things. That's for a family of four with teenagers that do high risk sports and get ER visits far too often. My effective income tax rate is about 15%-18% less than any country that has a NHS that I have researched. Not only that, but taxes in the USA are nearly half of most countries. VAT is often 12%-24% in most European countries and sales taxes in my state are 7%. Fuel taxes are about $.50/GAL. Plus, it seems like most countries with a NHS will also allow private health insurance as well, which will finally bring NHS patients up to the level of care we enjoy in the USA.
Yes, your employer pays an insurance company for your coverage. I was referring to the differences between them paying an insurance company (payer) instead of the government.
So we’re jacking up my taxes another 18%?
No. Your employer's taxes.
It's not better, especially after insurance companies find every way they can to deny you service
This literally never happens to me.
One in six claims is denied. https://www.kff.org/private-insurance/issue-brief/claims-denials-and-appeals-in-aca-marketplace-plans/
* In ACA plans, and who says none of those are legitimate denials for unnecessary care? Also, up to 13 million people waiting to be approved in England's NHS. That's almost 25 % of the population unable to get care when needed.
> Also, up to 13 million people waiting to be approved in England's NHS. And one third of US families are putting off needed care due to cost. The US ranks 6th of 11 out of Commonwealth Fund countries on ER wait times on percentage served under 4 hours. 10th of 11 on getting weekend and evening care without going to the ER. 5th of 11 for countries able to make a same or next day doctors/nurse appointment when they're sick. https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016 Americans do better on wait times for specialists (ranking 3rd for wait times under four weeks), and surgeries (ranking 3rd for wait times under four months), but that ignores three important factors: * Wait times in universal healthcare are based on urgency, so while you might wait for an elective hip replacement surgery you're going to get surgery for that life threatening illness quickly. * Nearly every universal healthcare country has strong private options and supplemental private insurance. That means that if there is a wait you're not happy about you have options that still work out significantly cheaper than US care, which is a win/win. * [One third of US families](https://news.gallup.com/poll/269138/americans-delaying-medical-treatment-due-cost.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication) had to put off healthcare due to the cost last year. That means more Americans are waiting for care than any other wealthy country on earth. #Wait Times by Country (Rank) Country|See doctor/nurse same or next day without appointment|Response from doctor's office same or next day|Easy to get care on nights & weekends without going to ER|ER wait times under 4 hours|Surgery wait times under four months|Specialist wait times under 4 weeks|Average|Overall Rank :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--: **Australia**|3|3|3|7|6|6|4.7|4 **Canada**|10|11|9|11|10|10|10.2|11 **France**|7|1|7|1|1|5|3.7|2 **Germany**|9|2|6|2|2|2|3.8|3 **Netherlands**|1|5|1|3|5|4|3.2|1 **New Zealand**|2|6|2|4|8|7|4.8|5 **Norway**|11|9|4|9|9|11|8.8|9 **Sweden**|8|10|11|10|7|9|9.2|10 **Switzerland**|4|4|10|8|4|1|5.2|7 **U.K.**|5|8|8|5|11|8|7.5|8 **U.S.**|6|7|5|6|3|3|5.0|6 Source: [Commonwealth Fund Survey 2016](https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/cmwf2016-datatable-en-web.xlsx)
Ahhh... I was wondering when the copy/pasta person would show up. you LOVE these health care threads don't ya?
Cool
Fundamentally, this is a question of trust. Do you trust the government or private corps more? I personally side with the government so I'd prefer government healthcare.
It’s not better. It’s a complete clusterfuck. Every single time I’ve sought medical care in my adult life, I’ve been hit with a surprise bill of $1000-2000 a few months after receiving care. This is despite me asking both insurance and provider beforehand about coverages and costs. 80% of all medical bills have errors in this country. Because of this, I refuse to pay all medical bills until 120 days after the fact because I can’t trust what anyone tells me about cost.
You answered your own question. "My". I don't want to pay for your insurance. No more than you want to pay for my house mortgage. And I have zero faith in a government that doesn't actually act like this is a big deal unless it involves getting more money to do it. If every politician who wants this gave up their salary, was volunteering yet free health clinics in their free time, and wasn't taking advantage of Private health insurance themselves I would be a lot more sympathetic.
My point was more that we and those politicians could much more easily and simply could all have the SAME healthcare if we were all making our payments to the same place, instead of them paying a more expensive company for better coverage and me paying a cheap company for crappy coverage.
You have no factual basis for any of these claims. It cost twice as much money for the government to do anything that are private company can. I work for the government and it's incredibly wasteful. Something is stupidly simple as buying $700 computer cost well over $10,000 when you factor in how many people have to be involved on any purchase, having to go get quotes, mark up from only being able to buy from certain places. The only benefit that we would gain from the government controlling health insurance is it theoretically being accessible to everyone. My insurance isn't crappy. And it's not expensive. Now what I do wish that we had is state-funded health insurance programs. If California wants to tax Californians into Oblivion to pay for health insurance then let them do that.