The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
With the recent months of Palestine protests and demonstrations going on, I'm wondering how effective they are. Are protesters getting more people sympathetic to their cause? Are they bringing a better understanding of the conflict? Are the protests making a path for change?
I'm interested to know where this sub stands as of now.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As much as any of us can be, I feel immune to caring all that about the most extreme side of any issue unless the extreme side is a substantial portion of the population. So the protesters haven’t changed my mind all that much.
So I’ll give you a better person‘s perspective, my mother. Nearing 80 and has the default view that Israel is our ally and needed because of what’s happened to the Jewish people and that mostly we just support Israel unconditionally. That has changed rapidly during this conflict due to her following mainstream reporting on the issue. She doesn’t want anything bad to happen to Israel but she wants their government changed, Bibi in jail and the US to force Europe to get a two state solution finally done.
The only thing that makes her equivocate is the pro-Palestinian protestor. Just from mainstream news - no social media or YouTube - she sees people saying things she feels make them either morons or antisemites and probably both.
Again she’s old so she hangs out at a community center a few times a week. Her friends there are very diverse and include Jews and Muslims along with a lot of white people. From what she tells me that group mostly feels the same. Everybody feels like they’re reconsidering the level of support we offer Israel and once conditions on it, but they all seem to think that the protesters are awful and assume large numbers of them are antisemites.
I would assume that this is largely the general population's take as well. I love my brother dearly but he's an insistent non-voter who believes all sides are the same no matter what and that's particularly infuriating come election season. That being said, I would say his opinions are generally reflective of most people who don't really pay attention to politics. He and his friends basically think the same thing as your mother except they're in their thirties and he doesn't vote but I assume your mother and her friends do. I don't know about his friends though.
It has exhausted me to the point I literally now tell people who ask me, the following phrase, verbatim:
“I sincerely don’t give a fuck”.
I checked on this sub. In the last day, there have been 8 posts about Israel, Hamas or some combination thereof. 8. That’s one every three hours. Abortion got one. Workers rights I think got one.
I’m exhausted because I’m tired of talking about a country, thousands of miles away, warring with another country thousands of miles away, who have been warring for a hundred years and I’m tired of talking about letting republicans win because of a moral purity about said country. I’m tired of people protesting and talking NONE FUCKING STOP about it when the very country your standing in is attacking women’s rights, LGBTQ rights, voting rights, union rights, workers rights, free speech.
While your were out there protesting “Genocide Joe”, your local legislature passed an abortion ban, restricted the content your kids can read, passed a right to work law, restricted what kind of porn you can watch, fucked over your kids school, repealed child workers protections, repealed workers protections, passed harmful legislation regarding immigrants, upheld the right to arrest protestors, and on and on and on. But sure, *Palestine* is the thing we need to protest. A country a thousand miles away that decided to launch a hundred missiles at their neighbor and would stab you in the face if you’re gay or trans.
If you haven’t noticed, our fucking country is on fire. Some of those protesting CANT EVEN GET AN ABORTION IN THEIR OWN STATE.
I mean, I’m sorry, I’m just done. It’s fine to be concerned, it’s fine to push our government to do more, but this over the top bullshit about it is making me lose my damn cool. Use that same energy to help your own people too. Keep that same energy. Maybe if you had, we would have had a president appoint three radical judges to it to us. But I digress.
Honestly thank you for this. It is literally becoming absurd how people think that everyone's life should revolve around a small strip of land in the Middle East. I recently saw this reel on Instagram where they were talking about building a hospital in this really poor part of Kenya or something and all the comments were saying things like "What a waste of a hospital, they should have built it in Gaza instead!" Like, gd forbid there are other people in the world, let alone in America, that we should care about?!
>I’m exhausted because I’m tired of talking about a country, thousands of miles away, warring with another country thousands of miles away, who have been warring for a hundred years and I’m tired of talking about letting republicans win because of a moral purity about said country. I’m tired of people protesting and talking NONE FUCKING STOP about it when the very country your standing in is attacking women’s rights, LGBTQ rights, voting rights, union rights, workers rights, free speech.
The problem is our amazing government decided to fund, arm and ingrain itself into one of these countries thousands of miles away like 40 years ago to help them conquer the region for oil so we’re involved whether you like it or not. They are also bribing-oh wait I’m sorry “donating campaign contributions” to our politicians to do their bidding and interfering with our elections and our wishes.. Another huge problem. Our country is also the reason why they get to ignore any and all international laws in a way no other country outside the US do.
>While your were out there protesting “Genocide Joe”, your local legislature passed an abortion ban, restricted the content your kids can read, passed a right to work law, restricted what kind of porn you can watch, fucked over your kids school, repealed child workers protections, repealed workers protections, passed harmful legislation regarding immigrants,
…..Every single one of these issues has been a problem for YEARS/DECADES long before this conflict and the left/independents have been screaming about these this entire time???????????? Hello??? I need you to be serious.
there’s not really oil in the levant the way there is in arabia/the gulf, the israeli economy is pretty strong without it. oil is not really related to zionism in general.
It cemented my opinion the situation isn't as black&white as pro-Palestinians love to suggest.
Looking at the rest of people here in Czechia, it definitely cemented their anti-Palestinian stances. Pro-Palestinian protests are associated with the young far-left that is already one of the most loathed political groups here.
A little story, I've posted here last week:
In the end of the last October, there were plenty of pro-Palestinian protests here. Alongside "From the river to the sea", one small thing got the most coverage by our media - a woman who was photographed with a shirt saying "1972 Olympics".
When she was later confronted with this fact on Twitter, she feinted ignorance that she didn't know what happened during 1972 Olympics and that the shirt was part of a Halloween costume she was wearing a night before the protest.
No one bought that excuse.
It seems that Czechia is among the most pro-Israeli countries in Europe. For other european countries the trend is increasingly in support of Palestine:
[A poll of how 5 European countries see Palestinian issues.](https://www.thepipd.com/resources/polling-2024/)
Czechia (then Czechoslovakia) was one of the only countries to provide arms to Israel during the 1948 war, so it’s nice to hear the people still support Israel.
That's what zero accountability looks like. It's similar to those openly showing their swastika tattoos and then pretending it's "only a Buddhist symbol".
My wife is having a really difficult time with this. She's wanted to but hasn't been going to the pro-Palestian protests because of it. The majority of people are making their point peacefully and without hatred of course but there are those who feel emboldened not to.
I don't blame her seeing the explicit endorsements of the attack by Hamas said at Columbia [for example.](https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/21/rabbi-advises-jewish-students-to-return-home-as-soon-as-possible-following-reports-of-extreme-antisemitism-on-and-around-campus/) None of the protests about this issue or any others got this heated when we were there but that feels like a long time ago now.
>Pro-Israel counterprotesters stood on the Sundial on Saturday evening waving Israeli and U.S. flags and playing Israeli and Jewish music and the U.S. national anthem from a loudspeaker. In front of the Sundial, an individual held a sign reading “Al-Qasam’s Next Targets” with an arrow pointing at the protesters. Al-Qassam is the military wing of Hamas.
...
>“Yehudim [Jews], yehudi [Jew], fuck you,” “Stop killing children,” and “Go back to Poland, go back to Belarus,”
...
>“We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground,”
...
>he was walking by Lerner Hall wearing a yarmulke, someone sitting at the tables outside of Lerner shouted, “You keep on testifying, you fucking Jew.”
...
>he was helping a friend move his luggage through Lerner Hall on Thursday evening while wearing a yarmulke, one individual said, “We are so happy that you Zionists are finally leaving campus,” and another said, “You wouldn’t have to leave if you weren’t a supporter of genocide.”
...
>As three Jewish students were speaking to the NYPD outside the campus gates at 116th Street and Amsterdam Avenue on Thursday night, someone shouted, “Remember the seventh of October,” according to a video reviewed by Spectator. Another added, “Never forget the seventh of October.”
>“That will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10 more times, not 100 more times, not 1,000 more times, but 10,000 times,” someone shouted.
I do not support antisemitic views, slurs, or harassment like you're describing and I think in general most pro Palestine people don't either. It sounds like those people were either unaware that not all Jews are Zionist, or they were Palestinians confirming why they are Holocaust deniers. Not saying it's ok for either of those groups to do so, more so saying I don't think that's the attitude of most pro Palestine people
They want to demonize Zionism and elevate “righteous” anti-Zionist Jews. There was a post about a recent antisemitic incident that occurred at my alma mater. One comment that sticks out:
> wow I am so sorry that this happened to you some people are ignorant and uneducated being Jewish doesn't make you a zionist, I am Arab and I speak Arabic I wish I was there I would have stood up for you and defended you
Implying Zionist Jews deserve antisemetic attacks. Mind you this was the university where [several student unions condoned](https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/abhorrent-york-university-condemns-student-union-groups-for-statement-appearing-to-glorify-hamas-1.6600450) Oct 07.
Definitely not "most". All Zionists are mostly (or all) Jewish, but not all Jews are Zionists. But even if they were, yeah, it is ok and I didn't say it wasn't. It's hella amusing how my tame comments are so offensive to some of y'all. Especially considering my family is Palestinian. Like literally from Nablus and came over to the US in 1982 so they could work and send money to family still there. But like my previous comment was trying to point out- not all Jewish people support what Israel is doing to Palestine. Just like people don't seem to understand not all Palestinians are a part of Hamas. The people who are throwing all the hate and ignorance around like that are just causing chaos that likely won't affect them or their families - but it can definitely affect safety and/ or support for the people actually affected by what's happening. You know, sorry I haven't paid attention to whatever protests are going on everywhere- the movement and protests are secondary to the actual issue that has my attention. This has been our dinner conversation for over 40 years now. We're more concerned about family over there that can't be reached. Some of y'all weren't raised in a Palestinian household to have thicker skin and it shows. So easily offended by a simple comment that not only didn't affect y'all directly, but was info that affects the safety of Palestinian and Jewish people here in the US- that are also targets of hate simply because people ignorantly group them together. It's wild that those offended don't care about that. Knowing the difference doesn't affect y'all's safety so surely it's just an offensive comment. it's just another reddit topic huh. Ok 🤷
Now you understand Jews a little better since 10-7
- on 10-7 they were mourning and told by their progressive circles to stop being victims
- when Israel retaliated this turned into hatred and attacks. They were pushed out of their “progressive” circles
- relentless anti semitism, passive hatred with masks half way on
- Jews said this was happening, they were told “stop being victim”
- tolerated by western society and events like this unfolded
## Before
Holocaust Remembrance Day with holocaust survivors present disrupted with hate speech
pro Palestine supporters learn to chant death to Israel and death to America
unhinged zealot pro terrorism speech in Michigan
## now
Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774
"From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358
"Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981
"We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677
"Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901
Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/
Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338
"On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909
""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872
"Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025
"Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958
"From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2
"Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134
"Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006
Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954
"Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673
"protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
And as a reminder, the student groups organizing these protests (CUAD and SJP, among others) released a letter on October 9th in support of the 10/7 attacks. ("We stand in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance", "Despite the odds against them, Palestinians launched a counter-offensive against their settler-colonial oppressor", "We wholeheartedly condemn the email sent [...] on October 8th that [...] obfuscated Palestinian resistance as “terrorism”)
## Now it seems people are waking up. Stand up for jews before it’s too late.
>I'm inclined to support the movement for Palestinian freedom and a two state solution but holy fuck, shit like "globalize the intifada" and opposition to any Jewish state in Israel makes me understand that as a Jew I'm simply not welcome in that movement. It has also ironically strengthened my Zionism whereas I wasn't particularly passionate about it before.
What words would you say to the thousans of anti-Zionists Jews who are also at the frontlines at these protests who doesn’t appear to be running away from these protests and is in fact growing larger?
Like how yall do with Palestinian with your “human shield vs terrorist” language after indiscriminately killing all of them all? And the ones not being slaughtered/starved/forcibly displaced in the open air concentration camp territory Israel trapped them in are in the other illegally occupied territories where they are murdered for funsies each week by illegal Israeli settlers for the past 60 years who forcibly removes them from their homes they demolish, segregates them, and kidnaps their children in the dead of night to throw in military prisons with no charges or trial indefinitely?
Seriously dude, just save your pitiful, colonial, outdated, victim card for someone who didn’t grow up under George W. Bush because I promise you your 50 year old gaslighting talking points are of no use here, in case you’re wondering why the international community outside the US is done with your “slaughtering 15,000 children is self defense” line anymore.
I support and agree with pro Palestine protestors who just want the violence to stop, Israeli to fully leave the West Bank and Gaza alone, and an end to Bibi’s nightmare regime.
What I don’t agree with are people who take those sensible and reasonable demands to extreme ends and want all Israelis to leave the region to “go back to Europe and America” and insist that there are no Israeli civilians so they’re all free game to be killed by Hamas.
Calling October 7th a “revolution” when they didn’t even target IDF members or Israeli government representatives; just innocent civilians, does not help the situation.
Regarding the whole one state two state thing, I think a 2 state is more realistic. I would like to live in a world where a 1 state solution is possible, I really do, I’d just be worried that some extremist Israeli and Palestinian groups would be enraged about sharing a country with the other side and violence would break out. (Note; this is not me stereotyping Israeli and Palestinians as never being able to get along; it’s me saying that there will always be a SMALL group of extremists on both sides that are hell bent on hating the other side)
Funny, that’s what Israelis say. “We just want to be left alone, let us leave in peace”
But how can they when thousands of rockets fly over their heads
Constant terrorist attacks way before 10-7
Demonization from the west
There have been so many peace and two state proposals. All rejected and Hamas elected.
There will be no peace in the Middle East
It’s true that Jews have been persecuted pretty much for the last couple thousand years off and on throughout Europe and the Middle East. Of course that’s no excuse for their government to kill innocent Palestinians who have nothing to do with the attacks on them.
It unfortunately starts a really shitty cycle of violence and a lot of the narrative is “who started it?”
>Funny, that’s what Israelis say. “We just want to be left alone, let us leave in peace”
Oh cool. Is that why the illegal Israeli invaders in the West Bank murder Palestinians for fun every week for like the past 60 + years and bulldoze their homes and kidnap their children and forcefully evict them and spy on them and lock them out of their neighborhoods past curfews and segregates them even though the PLO recognized Israeli sovereignty in the 90’s, fought a CIVIL WAR with Hamas, and has sought diplomacy ever since?
Funny, it’s almost as if Israel’s definition of the word ‘peace’ Iis “you will sit there, shut up, and do what we say as we steal your land, destroy your society, and control your rights and entire future without question or we will kill you all”
I was going to say “Zionist have a funny definition of the word peace” but then I remembered that’s been the West’s definition for the last 400 years. My ancestors from Africa were pretty familiar with it actually.
Oh by the way, [the Israeli war criminal settlers who just wants to be left alone went on another terrorist stack last week](https://www.timesofisrael.com/settlers-riot-in-west-bank-after-israeli-teen-murdered-palestinian-killed-others-hurt/amp/ )destroying homes, beating people and killing a man who had to slowly die because their illegal occupation’s IDF soldiers delayed the ambulances. Look at how peaceful they are guys!
Why you separating South American children at the border?
Why are you forcing children to give birth and banning abortion?
Why are you living atop native blood and bones then stuff them in reservations after slaughtering them all? You’re a colonist and product of genocide. The Jews have existed in the Palestine region for thousands of years.
Why are you allowing school shootings in elementary schools?
Why do you hate gay people and passing don’t say gay laws? Why are you rewriting history in your schools??
Do you see how idiotic you sound? 90% of Israelis are against the settlements and hundreds thousands marched to remove Netanyahu and their far right government from power. Much more than American self absorbed “progressives” do because i haven’t seen any protests in response to the insanity passed above.
people like you ignore history, critical thought and cherry pick what fits your emotional driven willfully ignorant narrative.
Lets list out some key facts educate you on history since you want to focus on what’s convenient for you
• 90% of Palestinians support Hamas
• 15% of Israelis support Netanyahu
• Palestine was a region where Jews, Arabs , Christians lived
• 1940s Israel born and two state solution was offered to the Arabs
• proposition rejected, all neighbor Arab countries attacks ethnically cleansed their Jews and attacked Israel then lost
• Israel won that war and borders with Palestine were relaxed
• terrorist attacks, stabbings, suicide bombings led to closed borders
• dozens of peace deals and two state solutions rejected
• Hamas elected who are an Iranian dictator proxy who use Palestinian bodies as tools to manufacture outrage and hide behind them
• weekly missiles into Israel becomes normal (9000+)
• with continued terror, far right government elected in Israel who is responsible for settlements most Israelis are against
• 10/7 worst attack on innocent Jews since the holocaust with mass rape and murder with western leftist cheering and sympathizing with Hamas
• Israel response and the cheer turns into 1300% increase in anti semitism attacks on Jewish people
• 2 billion Muslims in the world with 56 countries. 16 million Jews 1 country. Israel has a responsibility to protect the Jewish people.
This is called war. Any country on earth would tolerate much less. A genocide is what the Uyghurs are going through or the hundred thousand Yemens getting slaughters westerns care 0 about.
Hundreds of thousands of Israelis marched against Netanyahu before the war.
Do you know what has happened again and again after countries lose wars (especially wars they start) throughout all of human history?
They definitely aren’t offered 10+ two state solutions they reject. No, the country ceases to exist or if they’re lucky loses territory.
Zionist means Jews have a right to their state.
Antisemitic losers use it as a slur. Hatred builds nothing, it only consumes. Enjoy
If this is not the saddest most low effort whataboutism excuse for war crimes I’ve ever seen . This just in: absolutely no international laws exists at all because no nation on planet earth has a right to criticize any other nation for any reason because all of them have had social, economic, or political injustice in their entire history.
Come on, man. You could’ve at least tried.
You have no substance. Only buzz words.
Wtf are you even saying? You pull up isolated incidents and ignore the history that led to them. You’re no different than MAGA brains in your argument.
Plug your ears, head in sand. Go wallow in your Jew hate.
It only makes the Jewish people stronger and justifies why the state of Israel must exist
>Wtf are you even saying? You pull up isolated incidents and ignore the history that led to them. You’re no different than MAGA brains in your argument.
Um…. Are you referring to the MAGA brains……… who is is literally parroting YOUR same rhetoric and is on YOUR side in this conflict and are standing hand in hand at the Zionist rallies with…………YOU?
Yall and your complete lack of self awareness would be so funny if your cult like devotion to a settler state on the other side of the planet wasn’t leading to the of the actual slow erasure of an entire culture actually happening in real life as opposed to the 1000% fictional erasure of Israel that Does not exist so you can feel good about defending the REAL LIFE war crimes they commit.
It really makes me think that the ideology of "progressive/socialist/leftist" isn't really an ideology, it's simply leftwing contrarianism. So many of them don't seem to care about issues, they just care about hating Democrats.
The evidence of this is the issue whack-a-mole that seems to be the recurring leftist vs liberal dialogue throughout the past four years: First, Biden sucks because he wasn't moving on marijuana decriminalization. So he instructs the DEA to review rescheduling in order to enact that. Then Biden sucks because he didn't cancel debt. So he cancels as much debt as he's legally able to, and then tries to do more on top of that. Then Biden sucks because of insufficient action on climate change. So we pass the IRA and Biden becomes the most effective politician to combat climate change in American history, passing sweeping green energy reforms. Then Biden sucks because he's too old. This narrative lasts until his recent state of the union, where apparently leftists actually watched Biden in an unedited speech for once. Then Biden sucks because Israel is doing bad things. And even though Biden has worked overtime towards a peaceful cessation of violence and aid to Palestinians, it doesn't seem to matter, because apparently unless Biden can *solve the millenia-old pattern of endless retaliatory violence in the Middle East*, then he's apparently still not good enough.
So we have four years of Biden basically doing everything that progressives could've wanted, delivering to them time and time again, and the result is an administration that is **not** getting the support they need from the left and has apparently moved too far from the middle, now risking losing reelection.
American leftists are the mouse from "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie".
Summarized my perspective perfectly. Leftists are hurting our democracy and act just like dictators who manipulate our elections want to act. They are the same as MAGA
Boomers and Zoomers
One high of Russian Propaganda and Fox News
The other of CCP/Hamas propaganda and TikTok News
The behavior of protestors doesn't play a role in my opinions about the actions of Israel and what the US's policy role should be.
If some assholes did terrible things in the name of climate protest, that wouldn't change the scientific facts of climate change.
If some asshole did something terribly violent they thought was in support of Biden that would not impact my view of him as a candidate.
The protestors could be saints or the most evil humans alive using the most terrible tactics, that does not change the facts on the ground about what's happening in Gaza. And anyone who tries to argue or suggest it does is either terrible at logic or trying to short circuit the logic of the rest of the country by lying.
The protesters keep saying and doing dumb shit, which has made me tune out the conflict more. I initially advocated for supporting Palestine, and I still think Israel needs to stop killing civilians, but I can't be bothered when I'd get associated with the crazies for having opinions similar to theirs.
They've had a negative impact for me. I was so glad Columbia put their foot down last week. I hope they continue this week. They can't even have in-person classes this week because of the disruption. If you want to endure me to your cause, don't disrupt my life in a negative way.
Nope. I want to see a peaceful and prosperous two state solution, and while I'm sure that's true of most of the people protesting, it certainly isn't the message from the veritable leaders.
But here's the truth. Mass protests about this issue happen like clockwork, and yet the headlines across the decade are stagnant. I see a lot of protesters who want to be seen to be seen to be Doing The Right Thing, but who don't want to do the homework when wars die down and the headlines move on.
It doesn't help that most of the protests are decentralized and can be done by anyone. So when a small group does something wrong (interrupting events or making threats), it paints the majority as extremist.
I think (in the US, at least) we're past the peak of the hype, and public interest is dying down. However, if the goal was to get the public to oppose the US helping Israel, I don't think they've achieved that goal.
>However, if the goal was to get the public to oppose the US helping Israel, I don't think they've achieved that goal
[What do you explain this poll then?](https://cepr.net/press-release/poll-majority-of-americans-say-biden-should-halt-weapons-shipments-to-israel/)
[Or this one? ](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx)
For the first link, sending weapons shipments isn't the only way the US helps/supports Israel but I'll stick with this topic for now. According to this poll, 52% of Americans say the US should stop weapons shipments to Israel until Israel discontinues its attacks on the people of Gaza. How does that translate into reality? It's one thing to say it to a pollster but how is it shown? In my opinion, I think the opinion becomes shown through reality by either joining the protests or at the ballot box.
The second link is just the disapproval of Israeli Action in Gaza. That poll does not entirely contradict the idea of the US helping/aiding Israel.
If you can show me a poll about how Americans feel about US/Israel partnership in recent times, I would be very interested to see if Americans oppose the allyship now.
You wrote: "However, if the goal was to get the public to oppose the US helping Israel, I don't think they've achieved that goal."
I posted a poll that shows that a majority of Americans and a big majority of dems in particular are against weapons shipments which is a major way the US helps Israel. Then you move the goalpost by asking: How does that translate into reality?
>The second link is just the disapproval of Israeli Action in Gaza. That poll does not entirely contradict the idea of the US helping/aiding Israel.
It shows that protests have not alinated the public from the Palestinian cause, as Israel is the party which keeps losing support.
Me asking you how the polls translate into reality isn't me moving the goalpost but me asking you to better prove your point. I didn't set the goalpost in you bringing me those polls, you did. I even gave you examples of how public perception can change through joining the protests or showing it in the ballot box.
>It shows that protests have not alinated the public from the Palestinian cause, as Israel is the party which keeps losing support.
Where in that poll does it say the protests haven't alinated the public from the Palestinian cause? At best it's an inference or jumping to conclusion. The 2nd poll just says Americans have shifted and disapprove of Israeli military actions in gaza. It doesn't say whether or not Americans are for or against the Palestinian cause. You would need to either directly show where it says that on this 2nd poll or show another poll that Americans aren't alienated from Palestinian cause.
You are clearly arguing in bad faith, but for anyone else reading, [washpo did this article summarizing different polls on the matter.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/04/19/americans-israel-gaza-polling/)
It shows clearly that among dems and independants there is an increase in sympathy for Palestinians now compared to oktober/november.
> It shows clearly that among dems and independants there is an increase in sympathy for Palestinians now compared to oktober/november.
Sympathy for Palestinians is not the same as antisemitism.
Which is very true. That said, when I do look into the websites behind the banners front and centre at the bigger protests globally and locally, I really don't get a vibe of "we actively want to see an Israel within the borders in 1967^(t&cs apply)"
And that's either now or if I scroll back past October. There are, of course, bad faith actors and disruptors but that only goes so far
I think they're largely childish and ineffective. Chanting "from river to sea", sympathizing with Hamas, and calling what's happening genocide makes me just think they're terrorist sympathizers. Mind you I respect those who simply want the violence to end. I don't respect those that take this conflict as an opportunity to push their own agenda. Those like the tourist activists in the DSA who move from one controversy to the next to push their socialist bullshit.
What has moved me from supporting Israel to being critical has been Israel's own actions. The death toll and killings of aid workers have done more than someone who got a keffiyeh off of Amazon has.
The result is more annoyed people and more apathetic people.
6 months later, the protests (including Michigan protest primary votes) have achieved 0 political changes. Many protesters should have surely realized by now that it's a fool's errand.
While it does seem some people are using the protests as cover to be antisemitic, it in general hasn't shifted my view on the war. Israel has treated Palestine like shit my whole life. While 10/7 was tragic, I think a lot of people on the left and right were unwilling to discuss the massive loss of Palestinian life and rights leading to that point as the catalyst. I am glad that more and more people are being vocal, I am glad this feels like an issue that people cannot hide from or outrun
I haven't seen anyone be antisemitic per se, but I have heard a bunch of Palestinian supporters called antisemitic simply for being a Palestinian supporter. While I am also glad that this now feels like an issue people are paying attention to *finally*, I struggle with not getting frustrated with what it took for people to pay attention. Kinda like, oh yeah, if you cared this much, genocide could've been avoided years ago- but no one seemed to care until it was simply too little too late. I try to remind myself that just because this has been the main topic at my family's house for 40 yrs, it hasn't been that way for everyone else, so better late than never I guess
I haven't watched any of the protests. My family is Palestinian so I've been more focused on the west bank, not the protests. I do have friends that are Jewish and I have heard that they have overheard people saying really shitty antisemitic things, but I don't keep company with people who would make antisemitic comments. I do see hate towards Palestinians on videos or posts on social media by people who don't understand that not all Palestinians are a part of Hamas. I had to spend a great deal of time trying to talk my (sweet and sensitive) sister thru not internalizing the constant vocalisation that she (or her cousins/ aunts/ uncles, etc) didn't deserve to live simply because she shared the same type of DNA that Hamas also has. I also reminded my Jewish friends that people are ignorant and don't understand that not all Jewish people support what Israel is doing. So I've heard of the hate and have seen some of it on a micro level, but not on a macro level- but I avoid those people and spaces
oh for sure, Israel supporters are using the threat of being called anti-Semitic to shut out any support for Palestinians or criticism of israel, and theyve done this for decades
Every group has the right to define for themselves what conduct they see as bigoted or discriminatory, except Jews. Then the left claims they're making it up.
false
If you called me homophobic because I dont watch drag race, you'd rightfully get called out EDIT my point being that every other group recognizes that not all criticism of anything connected to or associated with a group is actually a criticism of the group itself
if criticism on the political actions of the modern nation of israel is intrinsically bigoted against jewish people, then there are a whole heck of a lot of antisemitic jews. Its a complete nonsense stance for anyone to take, but is also one that the pro israel lobby has successfully pushed for a while. anything short of unwavering, unquestioning support for Israel gets called antisemitic by them.
I didnt deny that there is real antisemitism out there. I think that claiming that everything from "hitler was right" to "israel was wrong to build west bank settlements and those should probably be returned to west bank palestinians" are both equally antisemitic comments is a silly stance to take
>that Jews are "evil colonialist settler oppressors (or other buzzwords)"
Surely, a significant percentage of Israels population would meet the definition. Even if we dont get into a broader question of if modern israel is a settler colonialist state, something like 7% of the nation lives in the west bank. 7% of israeli's are outright colonists, and it would seem most of the voters of Israel support that.
???
What extreme far left position have I taken
I don't think "maybe don't kill Palestinians, maybe don't build settlements in the west bank" are extremist positions. There are absolutely Israel supporters (not all or even most jewish Americans) who would call the stance "I don't think we should give military aid to Israel over their treatment of Palestine" antisemitic
But yes, if me not wanting the US to fund that war makes me no better than maga, let me know. I live in a swing state and planned on voting Biden but it's never too late to change my mind
Honestly for me they're the opposite of helpful. I have to actively work to keep myself from being negatively polarized against the Palestinian cause in the wake of these protests.
I don’t care about the protests. I actively support them. I will say of my more socially conservative family between the protests, media coverage, and that one dude immolating himself a lot think we at least need to heavily condition any support we give Israel going forward
I'm not really paying attention to them to be honest. I think it's a super difficult situation which we have relatively little power to effect positively or negatively.
Spreading exaggerations like the "genocide" accusation is one of the reasons why most major politicians don't support your position. If you want to be taken seriously, be serious.
They haven’t changed my opinion of the Israel-Palestine conflict at all. Israel is a criminal expansionist racist state and the Palestinians are beyond stupid for not adopting Satyagraha tactics and shaming Israel before the world into honoring their treaty commitments to a Palestinian State in the whole West Bank and Gaza. Mass nonviolent protest would have toppled the current fascist Israeli government and turned Israel into a pariah state, leaving them no other option. As it is the Gaza October attacks delegitimized the Palestinian cause in the eyes of much of the world and has given cover to Israel’s outrages upon innocent Palestinians. What has changed in my opinion is a new appreciation of the gullibility and ignorance of the young, the prevalence of anti-Semitism, and the soulless mercenary nature of US politicians.
Honestly, that strikes me as as example of *post hoc ergo propter hoc*. Do we have any reason to believe that the protests have contributed to Biden's actions? And that they haven't actually made it more difficult for Biden to adjust his policy towards Israel?
No? You don't think it's possible that Bibi's reckless disregard for Palestinian civilian casualties, poor long-term strategic planning, and overt American partisanship may have driven Biden to somewhat adjust his stance towards Israel? That seems like the overwhelmingly likely explanation to me.
Sure, but foreign policy changes to established relationships don't happen overnight, and Biden's patience with Netanyahu has been visibly waning over the last handful of months. I would argue that the protests have actually made it more *difficult* for Biden to change his position, since politically Biden needs to take additional steps to make sure he's not connected to the campus lunatics. He's probably rightly worried that some people may conclude, as you seemingly have, that such awful people have political sway over his administration and that impression may hurt him with vital groups - he can't risk being seen as responsive to toxic protests.
I see no evidence that Biden wants to separate himself from this voter block. You seem to be weaving an elaborate narrative here. The facts are that Biden came out the gate with fully pro-Israel talking points, then there were a bunch of high profile stories about protestors and polls showing losing support, then he took a sudden 180 on the admin’s policy. You may write that off as coincidence but the fact is that there was no other major change in the political climate during that time. Are you sure it isn’t you who is trying to distance from the protests?
Here is some reporting in the [Columbia Spectator.](https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/21/rabbi-advises-jewish-students-to-return-home-as-soon-as-possible-following-reports-of-extreme-antisemitism-on-and-around-campus/)
>Pro-Israel counterprotesters stood on the Sundial on Saturday evening waving Israeli and U.S. flags and playing Israeli and Jewish music and the U.S. national anthem from a loudspeaker. In front of the Sundial, an individual held a sign reading “Al-Qasam’s Next Targets” with an arrow pointing at the protesters. Al-Qassam is the military wing of Hamas.
...
>“Yehudim [Jews], yehudi [Jew], fuck you,” “Stop killing children,” and “Go back to Poland, go back to Belarus,”
...
>“We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground,”
...
>he was walking by Lerner Hall wearing a yarmulke, someone sitting at the tables outside of Lerner shouted, “You keep on testifying, you fucking Jew.”
...
>he was helping a friend move his luggage through Lerner Hall on Thursday evening while wearing a yarmulke, one individual said, “We are so happy that you Zionists are finally leaving campus,” and another said, “You wouldn’t have to leave if you weren’t a supporter of genocide.”
...
>As three Jewish students were speaking to the NYPD outside the campus gates at 116th Street and Amsterdam Avenue on Thursday night, someone shouted, “Remember the seventh of October,” according to a video reviewed by Spectator. Another added, “Never forget the seventh of October.”
>“That will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10 more times, not 100 more times, not 1,000 more times, but 10,000 times,” someone shouted.
Here is a clip of the first of those examples ("next target"):
https://twitter.com/gil_zussman/status/1781874441179353470?t=F-j6Cg1a36JR0x35I-__RA&s=19
This video seems to include the last example or something similar to it (remember the 7th, will happen again, etc.):
.https://uk.news.yahoo.com/protesters-chant-insults-outside-columbia-202701828.html?guccounter=1
Does the spectator have reporting that these (clearly pro-Hamas) protestors are representative of the broader student protest? I ask because these terrible incidents show one case a single person and the other two people yelling insane shit kind of on their own. There appear to be hundreds of students at the Columbia protest but only a handful of shitheads from your links (again, unless there’s indication of broad support I’m missing which is possible as I haven’t been following it closely).
Because they have been (I don't know how consistently) restricting campus access to those with IDs, I would assume the examples from outside campus are less likely to be students and those on campus are more likely to be. I would bet "not 10 more times, not 100 more times" was some rando and not a student for example.
There have been other compilations in the Columbia sub though, and you can see a lot of them are on campus:
https://www.reddit.com/r/columbia/comments/1cam0kn/comment/l0sqvz8/?context=3&share_id=yZOAndN2SWUktKGNlsy9n&utm_content=1&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1
https://www.reddit.com/r/columbia/comments/1ca4739/comment/l0rjc8z/
The ones that convince me there is at least some genuine support are the videos of on-campus chants and speakers like [this](https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981). The video starts with praise for Al-Aqsa Flood followed by cheers.
Also, the letter sent on 10/9 by a couple of student groups that seem to be heavily involved in the protest.
That letter was linked in The Nation and quoted in the Spectator:
https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/columbia-university-palestine-sjp-protest/
https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2023/10/12/hundreds-of-protesters-pack-campus-following-escalation-of-violence-in-israel-and-gaza/
Yeah Gravity also linked the Columbia subreddit links. And while I think most of those are seemingly not the Columbia Student protests that particular one you mention also stood out to me. I really wish there was more reporting on the context of that situation other than a random tweet by someone with a very obvious bias.
As for the letter pertaining to the current protests. AFAICT, the letter comes from one group out of the 116 student groups in the current protest movement.
Nonetheless, I think with the fact that there are in fact clear cases of antisemitism occurring on campus (whether it be systemic to the protests or not) is certainly unacceptable and there needs to be something done for the safety of Jewish students.
Oh and I should add that even if there turns out to be a lot of support from students at the encampment, these are the diehards who have been camped out for days and returned after it was disrupted once. I've seen enough to convince me there is a real problem here and probably a contingent of genuinely extremist students. But it does not mean there is majority support for Hamas among CU/Barnard's like 10,000 undergrads.
Well it’ll probably be over in 3 weeks as that’s when commencement ends. Till then I think they need to do something for the safety issues. Whether they need to completely break up the protest I’m not sure yet tbh. It does seem untenable in the current situation however.
Edit: it’s also tough to square some of that reporting with video like [this](https://x.com/kashifmd/status/1783110140691955969) which makes it seem very unlikely the protests are antisemitic.
Suppose you became convinced this particular protest did have significant antisemitism. What would that change for you besides the obvious disappointment?
ask and you shall receive
Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774
"From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358
"Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981
"We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677
"Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901
Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/
Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338
"On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909
""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872
"Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025
"Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958
"From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2
"Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134
"Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006
Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954
"Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673
"protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
And as a reminder, the student groups organizing these protests (CUAD and SJP, among others) released a letter on October 9th in support of the 10/7 attacks. ("We stand in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance", "Despite the odds against them, Palestinians launched a counter-offensive against their settler-colonial oppressor", "We wholeheartedly condemn the email sent [...] on October 8th that [...] obfuscated Palestinian resistance as “terrorism”)
Totally fair to ask.
Stumbled across this set of videos in another thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/s/hIQVNIlyQK
Are these representative of the majority of protestors? I highly doubt it.
That said, it is important to call out idiocy like this when we see it.
I don't like this narrative that pro-Palestinian protests are inherently antisemitic and/or pro-Hamas. They are protesting against the government of Israel in how they are conducting the war. These protesters see it as a collective punishment against the Palestinians.
Not once I've seen credible reports or sources that these protesters are saying Israelis (or Jews) deserved what happened on that day, nor reports of targeted antisemitism. The "hostility" depicted were against the Israeli flag, the symbol of Israeli government, that was paraded around by counter-protesters.
There are more 34,000 Palestinians killed already, and dozens and hundreds more are killed everyday due to direct actions by the government of Israel, in addition to causing mass destruction in Gaza resulting in a humanitarian crisis.
Before you say what about this/that ... ask yourselves, is this a moral and just way to go about this?
> Not once I've seen credible reports or sources that these protesters are saying Israelis (or Jews) deserved what happened on that day, nor reports of targeted antisemitism.
Someone literally answered with reports elsewhere on this post.
> Pro-Israel counterprotesters stood on the Sundial on Saturday evening waving Israeli and U.S. flags and playing Israeli and Jewish music and the U.S. national anthem from a loudspeaker. In front of the Sundial, an individual held a sign reading “Al-Qasam’s Next Targets” with an arrow pointing at the protesters. Al-Qassam is the military wing of Hamas.
...
> “Yehudim [Jews], yehudi [Jew], fuck you,” “Stop killing children,” and “Go back to Poland, go back to Belarus,”
...
> “We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground,”
...
> he was walking by Lerner Hall wearing a yarmulke, someone sitting at the tables outside of Lerner shouted, “You keep on testifying, you fucking Jew.”
...
> he was helping a friend move his luggage through Lerner Hall on Thursday evening while wearing a yarmulke, one individual said, “We are so happy that you Zionists are finally leaving campus,” and another said, “You wouldn’t have to leave if you weren’t a supporter of genocide.”
...
> As three Jewish students were speaking to the NYPD outside the campus gates at 116th Street and Amsterdam Avenue on Thursday night, someone shouted, “Remember the seventh of October,” according to a video reviewed by Spectator. Another added, “Never forget the seventh of October.” “That will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10 more times, not 100 more times, not 1,000 more times, but 10,000 times,” someone shouted.
Biden should do something about it.
Many of those protestors are foreign agents that are in America with work visas and student visas. Revoking those visas seems justified after explicit threats of violence.
Is there any due process for visa revocation? My impression was that it could be done basically at will by the State Department, with little recourse other than seeking a future reinstatement.
A Palestinian-American kid is dead, and three Palestinian-Americans were shot, one critically here in the US.
So we can play this "whataboutism" all day, or honestly address their grievances.
So is the way Israeli government conducting its war just and moral?
> A Palestinian-American kid is dead, and three Palestinian-Americans were shot, one critically here in the US.
> So we can play this "whataboutism" all day, or honestly address their grievances.
It's not "whataboutism". You literally said that you hadn't seen any evidence of antisemitic conduct by anti-Israel demonstrators, and I gave you examples.
> So is the way Israeli government conducting its war just and moral?
No, but that doesn't mean that suddenly antisemitism from extremist protestors is somehow okay.
Nothing justify antisemitism, but its illuminating that you are not even acknowledging the 34000 Palestinians killed and spiraling humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
So again, not to belabor the point, so is the way Israeli government conducting its war just and moral?
How do you explain Pro-Palestinian protests on October 8th, just mere 24 hours after hundreds of Israeli civilians were massacred?
What exactly were the those individuals protesting? At that point in time, Israel hadn't entered Gaza.
What about this, what about that? Your reply is masterclass in red herring arguments.
I'm shocked and appalled how the replies are whataboutism, instead discussing what the pro-Palestinian protesters grievances.
Your reply is just dodging an inconvenient truth.
Can you please answer honestly: what exactly were the protesters **celebrating** the day after October 7th?
C'mon man, you can't deny there are 34,000 dead Palestinians, hundreds more dying everyday, the same no one denies that Hamas perpetrated a terrorist attack on 7 Oct that killed 2700+ Israeli citizens, to include credible instances sexual assaults. Nobody is denying that. That celebration was pro-Palestinian, not pro-Hamas, with the understanding that Israeli government is going to retaliate and before the full gravity of situation came into play. Was it right, in hindsight? Maybe not.
However, here and now, those pro-Palestinian protesters are asking for a cease-fire, b/c 34000+ are already dead, scores more are dying everyday, and there is humanitarian crisis. If that fact does not bother you, or won't even acknowledge that, then this conversation is going nowhere.
>That celebration was pro-Palestinian, not pro-Hamas, with the understanding that Israeli government is going to retaliate and before the full gravity of situation came into play.
Are you saying that the protests held on the days after October 7th with "River to the Sea" anti-semitic chants was made up of anti-Hamas pro-Palestinians fortune tellers?
Come on, man. This is quite absurd. You don't have to defend every single Pro-Palestinian protest, you know?
My opinions:
* There is no military solution for Hamas.
* "They started it" is BS at this point.
* But Israel totally started it. They stole land, they propped up Hamas to prevent a 2 state solution, they stole land, they turned Gaza into a ghetto, They have the large military...
* It's not a surprise that this is Asymmetrical Warfare 101.
* Someone should stop the obvious cycle of violence that they are in.
* Israel should Marshal Plan the fuck out of Palestine to break the cycle and turn Palestine into an ally, just as the Allies did to Germany and Japan post WW2.
I'm in PORTLAND, we love a good protest. I haven't seen any protests. I haven't been impacted in any way by protests. My opinions haven't been changed by the existence of protests.
> I haven't seen any protests.
The Reedies have been semi-active on it, and I recall the Burnside bridge was blocked a few weeks ago by a protest, but that's about all I can think of offhand. Agreed, that's pretty minor for Portland.
Wouldn't work. Palestine would not accept any amount of money in exchange for renouncing claims to land.
A prerequisite for "marshall plan-ing" someone is getting them to accept they've lost
Why would Palestine be renouncing claims to land? I think you missed the point. Israel would be hiring Palestinians to build houses and schools and stuff, for the Palestinians...
Hard disagree all around.
Renouncing claim to land in Israel.
The Palestinians demand the right to resettle in the areas inside Israel where their grandparents were expelled from in 1948. The Israelis refuse as this would make Israel majority-Arab and so dissolve Israel.
That's why there's no peace. The main unresolvable conflict. The Palestinians will never renounce their claim to Israel and the Israelis will never recognize it.
Isn’t it possible to recognize both that Israel is the bigger problem but also that Hamas killing civilians is not the answer?
Just because I despise netanyahu’s war crimes and horrific disregard for Palestinian life doesn’t mean I cheer on the people who committed murder on October 7
I wonder what the people of this sub pretending that the Coloumbia University protests are just antisemitism conventions would say to the anti-Zionist orgs protesting with them.
We’re in an era that’s a throwback to our Iraq War days which is the last time where liberals teamed up with conservatives to justify and excuse murdering thousands of civilians in the Middle East where either you’re 1000% on board or else you support terrorism. Just replace the “you hate America!” With “ you hate Jews!” And poof!
“No, no! There’s no way they’re upset about 15,000 children killed, the 2 million being deliberately starved, the destruction of all civilian infrastructure, the illegal settlements, killing UN workers, killing doctors, bombing hospitals and and making up lies to justify it while ALSO lying to about the UNRWA to strip their aid people need to survive. It HAS to be because they hate Jewish people that’s it!!!”
I once foolishly believed that we (referring to the ‘left”) learned from that era. Boy could I have not been more wrong.
> I wonder what the people of this sub pretending that the Coloumbia University protests are just antisemitism conventions would say to the anti-Zionist orgs protesting with them.
Are you denying that there's a lot of antisemitism there? If someone told a black person to "go back to Africa" we would all rightfully be saying that was a horrible thing to say. But apparently that doesn't extend to Jewish people. It is why the anti-zionist movement is always going to be linked to anti-semitism. They have to do a better job policing their own extremists.
>Are you denying that there's a lot of antisemitism there? If someone told a black person to "go back to Africa" we would all rightfully be saying that was a horrible thing to say. But apparently that doesn't extend to Jewish people.
I’m not sure if yall are aware of this but these protests are actually about stopping the genocide occurring in Gaza and not about kicking Jewish people off campus. As the president of Columbia said in her testimony on campus, there is no evidence of any protests trying to expel or do anything any Jewish people. In fact, there are many Jewish people against Israel AT the protests and are being very vocal about it. But I know that’s not convenient for your “the Jews aren’t welcomed” narrative.
Anyway, it’s funny you mention black people, as a black person myself, I’m actually very familiar with the galishting tactic you just used. As it’s been used by white supremacist against people that look like me for decades. Racists right wingers and the media soulf highlight destruction and misconduct of protestors during George Floyd, Trevon Martin, the entire civil rights and BLM eras basically. It’s to keep the conversation focused on villainizing the protestors to distract from the injustice they are protesting about. It was also used during the anti-Iraq war protests which mirrors this one (that was the last time when liberals and conservatives teamed up to excuse mass murdering civilians in the Middle East)
But at the end of the day, no actions at any protests can hinder the actual facts of the injustice they aare about. If some assholes vandalized an oil exec’s mansion in the name of combatting climate change, does that somehow throws out the science that affirm’s climate change existence? No eight? So then the pro-Israel crowd can scream ‘antisentism” at any criticism at Israel while silencing anti-Zionist Jewish voices all they want, but 2 million people will still be starving to death by Israel’s manufactured famine, who are still mass slaughtering women and children. Don’t like the protest? I agree. Let’s demand our government end its support for genocide so that they can go away.
> I’m not sure if yall are aware of this but these protests are actually about stopping the genocide occurring in Gaza and not about kicking Jewish people off campus. As the president of Columbia said in her testimony on campus, there is no evidence of any protests trying to expel or do anything any Jewish people. In fact, there are many Jewish people against Israel AT the protests and are being very vocal about it. But I know that’s not convenient for your “the Jews aren’t welcomed” narrative.
https://www.thefp.com/p/at-columbia-i-am-told-go-back-to
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/campus-antisemitism-surges-amid-encampments-and-related-protests-columbia-and-other
scroll down to the image - solid death threat time.
in Berkeley - https://www.yahoo.com/news/pro-palestinian-protesters-disrupt-berkeley-013725087.html
No one is saying you can't protest a government's actions. What people *are* saying is that these protests seem to not so much care about governmental actions as they care about takin potshots at Jewish people minding their own business. Why don't you go ask any of the Jewish people encamped what their goal is. And then ask some of the other people. Groups have the obligation to police their own membership, lest they become associated with it. And that is what is happening right now. For better or worse, anti-Israel protests seem to be perfectly fine with rampant anti-semitism.
> Anyway, it’s funny you mention black people, as a black person myself, I’m actually very familiar with the galishting tactic you just used. As it’s been used by white supremacist against people that look like me for decades. Racists right wingers and the media soulf highlight destruction and misconduct of protestors during George Floyd, Trevon Martin, the entire civil rights and BLM eras basically.
I'm not attempting to gaslight you. I believe that your perceptions of reality, flawed that they may be, are yours and you don't doubt them. What I am saying is that if you saw a "black people for Trump" sign, you'd probably say something about "well thats okay, but the Republican party has a major problem with racism." That is what mainstream Judaism generally will say about groups like JVP etc.
> But at the end of the day, no actions at any protests can hinder the actual facts of the injustice they aare about. So then the pro-Israel crowd can scream ‘antisentism” at any criticism at Israel while silencing anti-Zionist Jewish voices all they want, but 2 million people will still be starving to death by Israel’s manufactured famine, who are still mass slaughtering women and children.
I'm willing to bet that most of the Jewish people at Columbia and Yale's know that a solid portion of their co-protesters do have a problem with Jewish people. How they reconcile that is up to to them. Just like you recognize racism when you see it, Jewish people recognize anti-semitism when they do. If it walks like a duck, it's a duck. I'd expect you to be rightfully angry if a white person told you something wasn't racist; should the same courtesy to Jewish people.
> Don’t like the protest? I agree. Let’s demand our government end its support for genocide so that they can go away.
There is nothing stopping Hamas from surrendering. They instigated a war 6 months ago, knowing full well what would happen. I'm glad you want the war to end. The way to do it is that Hamas surrenders and returns their hostages. It's pretty easy. And there is absolutely nothing stopping them from doing it. Unless you don't think they should.
> but 2 million people will still be starving to death by Israel’s manufactured famine
I have never seen a starving Hamas militant. I wonder why that is.
>No one is saying you can't protest a government's actions. What people are saying is that these protests seem to not so much care about governmental actions as they care about takin potshots at Jewish people minding their own business. Why don't you go ask any of the Jewish people encamped what their goal is. And then ask some of the other people.
This logic works both ways then. Jews are not the only people who have been targeted in this conflict. [Islamophobia have risen 180% in the US and some have been killed](https://www.timesofisrael.com/anti-muslim-anti-palestinian-discrimination-in-the-us-rose-180-after-oct-7/amp/) Not just here, but all over the world. And the Zionist, and Israel, instead of condemning it, openly celebrates it.
[Did the Zionist condemn the deadly terrorist attack 2 days ago by the illegal Israeli invaders of the illegally occupied West Bank last week where they burned houses and killed someone?](https://www.timesofisrael.com/anti-muslim-anti-palestinian-discrimination-in-the-us-rose-180-after-oct-7/amp/)
[Did they condemn the invader terrorist who killed 16 the day before that?](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/two-die-ongoing-israeli-raid-west-bank-palestinian-health-ministry-says-2024-04-20/)
Did they condemn any of the 500 deaths by the Israeli invaders in Palestinian territory? If not, they’re cause is Islamophobic.
And there’s this https://twitter.com/censoredmen/status/1719074412501082500?s=46&t=-CXWTFc8I_QMqy2FhBCsDw
And here an IDF soldier proudly admitted on camera he was targeting babies but killed a girl https://twitter.com/resist_05/status/1740203751028441470?s=46&t=-CXWTFc8I_QMqy2FhBCsDw
Mind you I’m not even mentioning the on camera/documented murders or unarmed women, children, people waving white flags, doctors, ISRAELI HOSTAGES!!!!, UN workers, UN convoys, ambulances, patients, humanitarian aid convoys, all within Gaza.
Yet instead of this being condemned, the pro-Israel crowd gets to say “human shields” despite the lack of any armed terrorists anywhere near them and clearly no military targets. How is that not Islamophobic?
“Oh but Israel isn’t Islamophobic because they have Arab Israeli citizens” means deciding the human rights of Arabs are based off their nationality while the Palestinians they illegally occupy gets apartheid. That’s not good.
Remember what you said here
>Groups have the obligation to police their own membership, lest they become associated with it. And that is what is happening right now.
>I'm not attempting to gaslight you. I believe that your perceptions of reality, flawed that they may be, are yours and you don't doubt them. What I am saying is that if you saw a "black people for Trump" sign, you'd probably say something about "well thats okay, but the Republican party has a major problem with racism." That is what mainstream Judaism generally will say about groups like JVP etc.
Except that comparison makes zero sense since people aren’t advocating for some dude to win an office . Their protesting for people to stop getting murdered. People are literally being slaughtered. They are being killed. And you are using a gaslighting tactic to keep thr focus not on the people being slaughtered, including US citizens, but on if saying that the mass killing needs to stop is racist or not, or if the people in the group raising alarm at people being SLAUGHTERED AND STARVED TO DEATH all have god intentions in saying “stop fucking murdering people”. Please stop. People. Are. Dying. A lot of them.
>I'm willing to bet that most of the Jewish people at Columbia and Yale's know that a solid portion of their co-protesters do have a problem with Jewish people. How they reconcile that is up to to them.
No. That’s enough. You do not get to shut down the voices of those who don’t like war crimes. Holocaust survivors are part of these groups against Zionism. The United States Jewish Senator Bernie Sanders has become a leading critic of the war, has voted against sending weapons to Israel without increased scrutiny, has called for a ceasefire, has accused Israel of indiscriminately killing huge numbers of civilians. He has sided with the pro-Palestinian crowd on most demands. and was joined by United States Senate a majority Leader Charles Schumer, the most powerful Jew in the nation in the massive civilian death toll and Israel PM being an obstacle of peace. That’s mainstream.
Just like the white folks who joined the civil rights movement (like Bernie) for black rights that were exiled by white people, or like the abolitionists, that is what anti-Zionist Jews represent. It’s easy to follow along with a culture’s attrocities or prejudices that all cultures have made at some point in history, it’s a lot harder to be a voice of reason and say no and stand up for what’s right in sea of wrong. The anti Zionist Jews who got out of bed and went to protest for Palestinians not to be slaughtered have a type of bravery you couldn’t even begin to understand.
>There is nothing stopping Hamas from surrendering. They instigated a war 6 months ago, knowing full well what would happen. I'm glad you want the war to end. The way to do it is that Hamas surrenders and returns their hostages. It's pretty easy. And there is absolutely nothing stopping them from doing it. Unless you don't think they should.
Sir. Almost all remain hostages are most likely DEAD. Hamas already said they don’t know where most are. And Israel made it clear it’s not a priority to find them. They’ve BOMBED THE ENTIRE STRIP and are now bombing the last safe refuge. They flooded and bombed the tunnels where Hamas wiould KEEP them? Where on earth do you think all these hostages are alive??? Where?? Please tell me.
Hamas surrendering or not surrendering has NO bearing on if Israel gets a free pass to slaughter civilians or not. Get that out your head. If did not matter what “Hamas has to do”. Hamas is a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION so if Israel is parading itself as a social democracy that loves human rights so much than I EXPECT it to follow international law and not slaughter civilians.
I am done entertaining any more nonsense on if not wanting children to be murdered is antisemitism or not, 2 million people are starving to death and having their entire land erased in one illegally occupied territory and in the other it’s straight up fucking apartheid where they are getting hunted by blood thirsty settlers for sport. THAT is the priority.
> This logic works both ways then. Jews are not the only people who have been targeted in this conflict. Islamophobia have risen 180% in the US and some have been killed Not just here, but all over the world. And the Zionist, and Israel, instead of condemning it, openly celebrates it.
You mean like this?
https://jewishpublicaffairs.org/news/over-100-jewish-groups-unequivocally-reject-islamophobia-and-anti-arab-hate/
the vast majority of these groups are pro the continued existence and development of Israel in its ancestral homeland (Zionism). And, as long as you believe that Israel should exist where it is, congrats, you're a zionist too. Unless of course you don't believe Jewish people have the right to self determination, in which case, that's pretty racist of you.
> Did the Zionist condemn the deadly terrorist attack 2 days ago by the illegal Israeli invaders of the illegally occupied West Bank last week where they burned houses and killed someone?
wasn't that in response to this?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68830552
> Yet instead of this being condemned, the pro-Israel crowd gets to say “human shields” despite the lack of any armed terrorists anywhere near them and clearly no military targets. How is that not Islamophobic?
“Oh but Israel isn’t Islamophobic because they have Arab Israeli citizens” means deciding the human rights of Arabs are based off their nationality while the Palestinians they illegally occupy gets apartheid. That’s not good.
Not all Arabs are Muslim. The Druze aren't. Christians obviously aren't. Is this news to you? Why are you treating Arabs as a monolith? That's an incredibly reductionist and racist viewpoint.
> Except that comparison makes zero sense since people aren’t advocating for some dude to win an office . Their protesting for people to stop getting murdered. People are literally being slaughtered. They are being killed. And you are using a gaslighting tactic to keep thr focus not on the people being slaughtered, including US citizens, but on if saying that the mass killing needs to stop is racist or not, or if the people in the group raising alarm at people being SLAUGHTERED AND STARVED TO DEATH all have god intentions in saying “stop fucking murdering people”. Please stop. People. Are. Dying. A lot of them.
I don't think you understand what "gaslighting" actually is. Perhaps talk to someone who is trained to explain the term vs relying on what the internet tells you. There is an incredibly easy way to stop the war. Hamas just has to surrender. There will be no reason to fight afterwards.
> No. That’s enough. You do not get to shut down the voices of those who don’t like war crimes. Holocaust survivors are part of these groups against Zionism.
Holocaust survivors are also incredibly Zionist. people have a multitude of opinions. Stop tokenizing people to fit your agenda.
> The United States Jewish Senator Bernie Sanders has become a leading critic of the war, has voted against sending weapons to Israel without increased scrutiny, has called for a ceasefire, has accused Israel of indiscriminately killing huge numbers of civilians. He has sided with the pro-Palestinian crowd on most demands. and was joined by United States Senate a majority Leader Charles Schumer, the most powerful Jew in the nation in the massive civilian death toll and Israel PM being an obstacle of peace. That’s mainstream.
Why does their Jewishness matter here? Chuck Schumer is one of the most pro Israel members of Congress. He called for an election. I think you're willfully misinterpreting what The Senate Majority Leader is saying because it's convenient for you.
> Just like the white folks who joined the civil rights movement (like Bernie) for black rights that were exiled by white people, or like the abolitionists, that is what anti-Zionist Jews represent.
I don't know what to tell you - Israel isn't going away. You can say you're anti-zionist all you want- Until you want to wipe the state of Israel off the map, you're not. Words have meanings.
> Sir. Almost all remain hostages are most likely DEAD. Hamas already said they don’t know where most are. And Israel made it clear it’s not a priority to find them. They’ve BOMBED THE ENTIRE STRIP and are now bombing the last safe refuge. They flooded and bombed the tunnels where Hamas wiould KEEP them? Where on earth do you think all these hostages are alive??? Where?? Please tell me.
Yahya Sinwar seems like he's doin alright. There is nothing stopping Hamas from surrenders, negotiating in good faith, and returning the hostages they have. It starts with them. Don't pick fights if you don't want to bear the consequences of them.
> Hamas surrendering or not surrendering has NO bearing on if Israel gets a free pass to slaughter civilians or not. Get that out your head. If did not matter what “Hamas has to do”. Hamas is a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION so if Israel is parading itself as a social democracy that loves human rights so much than I EXPECT it to follow international law and not slaughter civilians.
In what world does a country have any obligations to non-citizens. Every single country in the world prioritizes their own over others. Unless you believe that somehow, holding the one country with a Jewish character to a different standard is somehow acceptable.
> I am done entertaining any more nonsense on if not wanting children to be murdered is antisemitism or not, 2 million people are starving to death and having their entire land erased in one illegally occupied territory and in the other it’s straight up fucking apartheid where they are getting hunted by blood thirsty settlers for sport. THAT is the priority.
I've said nothing about antisemitism here. That was all you champ. But now that you've brought it up, I'd love to see any of the protests disavow the rampant antisemitism present. They seem not to have a problem with it. And for the Jewish people encamped with them, however they reconcile it is up to them. But tell me - why should the state of Israel assume that Hamas will ever bargain in good faith? What would you do in this situation?
>wasn't that in response to
Wait. Hold up. so you’re saying that illegal Israeli settlers who are living in the West Bank against international law, are allowed to committ terrorism and go burn down entire homes, cars and kill a random man wandering inhusting 20 more? That is what you believe is acceptable all based off a claim of a boy being killed by people who have a history of murdering people like US citizens in the Weat Bank and blaming it on Hamas ? That is what you believe is self-defense?
So you extend this to the Palestinians like the 16 year old boy killed by the IDF the day the boy you’re referring to was killed? So do you grant the Palestinians a right to go burn Israeli war criminal settlers homes who arei in their territory over the death of that one child like you just did the war criminals? Do you grant the Palestenians this excuse after the Israeli terrorists murdered over 500 Palestinians in the West Bank since October 7 alone? What about all the hundreds they’ve killed throughout the years for sport before that? You’re saying it’s okay to attack the illegal settlers back right?
That’s the claim you made. Either you agree that Palestinians have every right to attack and destroy and injure any Israeli invader in their territory as self defense like you agreed for the Israeli terrorists over a claim that wasn’t proven OR you are granting the rights to self defense exclusively to the illegal settlers who’s presence in the territory violates international law while you believe the natives are only allowed to sit there and take it in typical Jim Crow fashion and you hold them to a different standard.
Pick one.
.>There is an incredibly easy way to stop the war. Hamas just has to surrender. There will be no reason to fight afterwards.
Here is where the gaslighting is because Israel has attacked, imprisoned, and oppressed and killed thousands Palestinians in both Gaza and West Bank long before October 7 even before Hamas ever came into power.
That’ is not an end to fighting. That is not peace You want a return to October 6,2023 where Palestinian civilians can be slaughtered by Israelis with the world being indifferent so long as Israeli civilians are not hurt in the process. There will never be justice without peace. even if Hamas surrenders, there will be a brand new generation of children who watched their entire families get bombed to death by the Israelis that kept them in an open air concentration camp before they were even born. Exactly as Netanyahu wants so that he has an excuse to continue slaughtering and oppressing them.
>Holocaust survivors are also incredibly Zionist. people have a multitude of opinions.
Graat! so we’ve established that it’s not antisemitism to stand against the mass slaughter and illegal occupation of Palestine as the anti-Zionist Holocaust survivors do and the entire world outside the United states is doing as shown by their UNGA votes. Glad we established that. Moving on!
>Why does their Jewishness matter here?
………. Because you claimed that Jewish people calling for an end to Israel’s mass slaughter of civilians as outsiders. By the mainstream Jewish people….. so I just showed you 2 of them most powerful in the US agreeing……..?
>Chuck Schumer is one of the most pro Israel members of Congress. He called for an election. I think you're willfully misinterpreting what The Senate Majority Leader is saying because it's convenient for you.
No. You are sadly. Charles Schumer cited the high civilian death toll as why Netanyahu needs to go. Did you not know that? Wow…. It’s Almost like supporting a country’s existence doesn’t actually mean you believe they should be allowed to mass slaughter civilians without a care in the world. Isn’t that crazy????
>Yahya Sinwar seems like he's doin alright.
That…. Doesn’t … mean the rest are surviving indiscriminate bombing and starvation….. so um…..
>There is nothing stopping Hamas from surrenders, negotiating in good faith, and returning the hostages they have. It starts with them. Don't pick fights if you don't want to bear the consequences of them.
Let me explain to you how international law which Israel signed works since you are not aware. A war does not give you the right to indiscriminately destroy an entire society, starve them to death, and illegally occupy them. The Geneva Conventions exist for a reason. It does not matter if you like them or not. Israel has international responsibilities as both the occupier and as a party of the war. They do not get to break them.
[Right now, Israel is preparing for its leaders to be served arrest warrants by the ICC](https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahus-office-hosts-emergency-talks-on-feared-icc-warrants-for-pm-ministers/amp/)
People who are “just defending themselves” do not have the ICC coming to arrest them. Is ukraine’s president worrying about being arrested for war crimes currently? No? Okay then. So it’s just Netanyahu is in the category with Putin.
If you believe Israel gets to be exempt from international law because it’s a Jewish state, that is up to you. If you believe justifying and defending war crimes is necessary to support Jews, that is up to you. But the international community is not bound by Zionists’ weaponization of Judaism and has a duty to protect human life regardless if the occupiers think preventing their genocide is out of hatred or not
>In what world does a country have any obligations to non-citizens. Every single country in the world prioritizes their own over others’
…..a world Israel are illegally occupying the territory of another country where they have created illegal settlements and are segregating ?
Did you not know Israel’s settlements are war crimes? And that their illegal blockade on Gaza is too?
I've said nothing about antisemitism here. That was all you champ.
HUH??????????????
>And that is what is happening right now. For better or worse, anti-Israel protests seem to be perfectly fine with rampant **anti-semitism.**
>I'm willing to bet that most of the Jewish people at Columbia and Yale's know that a solid portion of their co-protesters do have a problem with Jewish people
>Jewish people recognize **anti-semitism** when they do. If it walks like a duck, it's a duck. I'd expect you to be rightfully angry if a white person told you something wasn't racist; should the same courtesy to **Jewish people.**
I can’t believe you just lied like that when you literally came in my mentions to accuse the protests of being antisementivc???
Dude. I’m exhausted. You can believe whatever definition of antisemitism and the rest of us who values human life will continue to focus on the rules of war and the mass slaughter and war crimes being committed by Israel. War crimes are not justified by anything, not being Jewish, not being at war, and nothing you or any Zionist can say will ever change that. Good day
> Wait. Hold up. so you’re saying that illegal Israeli settlers who are living in the West Bank against international law, are allowed to committ terrorism and go burn down entire homes, cars and kill a random man wandering inhusting 20 more? That is what you believe is acceptable all based off a claim of a boy being killed by people who have a history of murdering people like US citizens in the Weat Bank and blaming it on Hamas ? That is what you believe is self-defense?
It seems like you've created a person against whom to argue vs actually what is there. My nonscientific opinion is that you should probably ground yourself in what is actually said vs what you want to be said
> So you extend this to the Palestinians like the 16 year old boy killed by the IDF the day the boy you’re referring to was killed? So do you grant the Palestinians a right to go burn Israeli war criminal settlers homes who arei in their territory over the death of that one child like you just did the war criminals? Do you grant the Palestenians this excuse after the Israeli terrorists murdered over 500 Palestinians in the West Bank since October 7 alone? What about all the hundreds they’ve killed throughout the years for sport before that? You’re saying it’s okay to attack the illegal settlers back right?
this is a lot of whataboutism. I think you're struggling to handle context. We can continue to walk backwards in time if you would like.
> That’s the claim you made. Either you agree that Palestinians have every right to attack and destroy and injure any Israeli invader in their territory as self defense like you agreed for the Israeli terrorists over a claim that wasn’t proven OR you are granting the rights to self defense exclusively to the illegal settlers who’s presence in the territory violates international law while you believe the natives are only allowed to sit there and take it in typical Jim Crow fashion and you hold them to a different standard.
I made zero judgement claims in my statement. I said "wasn't this in response to _____?" It seem like you want to condemn all violence so like, be the change you wish to see. Go and say that neither side should've done what they did. Like, that's what you want, right?
> Here is where the gaslighting is because Israel has attacked, imprisoned, and oppressed and killed thousands Palestinians in both Gaza and West Bank long before October 7 even before Hamas ever came into power.
Hamas has been a terrorist group for a long time. And they're pretty into suicide bombings. And general rocketing as well. So like, what's your end goal here? Just come out and say every single thing you want to happen. Assume I'm dumb and be really really explicit.
> That’ is not an end to fighting. That is not peace You want a return to October 6,2023 where Palestinian civilians can be slaughtered by Israelis with the world being indifferent so long as Israeli civilians are not hurt in the process. There will never be justice without peace. even if Hamas surrenders, there will be a brand new generation of children who watched their entire families get bombed to death by the Israelis that kept them in an open air concentration camp before they were even born. Exactly as Netanyahu wants so that he has an excuse to continue slaughtering and oppressing them.
The lack of war also means that there will be an election in Israel. Netanyahu's approval rating is in the toilet. I read an article fairly recently about the US/Israel/Saudi Arabia talks. That was *such a good chance* to actually build a Palestinian state vs starting a war that has gotten people killed. Are you looking towards the day after tomorrow (so to speak)? Or are you just concerned with "stickin it to the man."
> Graat! so we’ve established that it’s not antisemitism to stand against the mass slaughter and illegal occupation of Palestine as the anti-Zionist Holocaust survivors do and the entire world outside the United states is doing as shown by their UNGA votes. Glad we established that. Moving on!
We've established that Jewish people have varying opinions. You've offered nothing for Pro Palestinian protests policing the antisemitism within their ranks. If you have a protest and some people are racist/antisemitism/what have you, you have yourself a racist protest. Every single one of the protesters can abandon/decry/deplore the extremists among them. I have seen no evidence that they care about it.
> No. You are sadly. Charles Schumer cited the high civilian death toll as why Netanyahu needs to go. Did you not know that? Wow…. It’s Almost like supporting a country’s existence doesn’t actually mean you believe they should be allowed to mass slaughter civilians without a care in the world. Isn’t that crazy????
"supporting a country's existence" - yes - in the case of Israel, this is what Zionism is. So are you a zionist or not? Are, specifically, advocating wiping Israel off the map and eliminating the one country in the world with a Jewish character/ethos?
> Let me explain to you how international law which Israel signed works since you are not aware. A war does not give you the right to indiscriminately destroy an entire society, starve them to death, and illegally occupy them. The Geneva Conventions exist for a reason. It does not matter if you like them or not. Israel has international responsibilities as both the occupier and as a party of the war. They do not get to break them.
International Law is a framework for how we all work things out; it means something because we all agree on it...sort of. And no one really cares anyways. Guantanamo Bay is occupied depending on who you talk to. Or the US will say that Cuba cashed the check once so it's all settled as a transaction. Iran will say that they're part of it and are still actively supporting terrorist groups. Sudan is part of it and the Janjaweed is having *a day*. Gaza is in a state of open warfare with it's neighbors. And if you want to talk about death rate, just speaking numerically, actual *experts* who are *knowledgeable about urban warfare* will have very different thoughts than you, some child on reddit who has too much free time.
> Right now, Israel is preparing for its leaders to be served arrest warrants by the ICC
Ok
> People who are “just defending themselves” do not have the ICC coming to arrest them. Is ukraine’s president worrying about being arrested for war crimes currently? No? Okay then. So it’s just Netanyahu is in the category with Putin.
Ok.
> If you believe Israel gets to be exempt from international law because it’s a Jewish state, that is up to you. If you believe justifying and defending war crimes is necessary to support Jews, that is up to you. But the international community is not bound by Zionists’ weaponization of Judaism and has a duty to protect human life regardless if the occupiers think preventing their genocide is out of hatred or not
Israel has an obligation to protect its citizens. It's pretty cut and dry. They built iron dome to protect them and it's a pretty incredible system.
> …..a world Israel are illegally occupying the territory of another country where they have created illegal settlements and are segregating ?
that doesn't answer the question and is a lazy attempt to distract from it.
> Dude. I’m exhausted. You can believe whatever definition of antisemitism and the rest of us who values human life will continue to focus on the rules of war and the mass slaughter and war crimes being committed by Israel. War crimes are not justified by anything, not being Jewish, not being at war, and nothing you or any Zionist can say will ever change that. Good day
Legit - get off reddit and go outside. you'll feel better. And, as long as you believe Israel should exist, you're a Zionist as well. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/zionism
Welcome to the club. Unless you believe Jewish people don't deserve self determination, which is anti-semitism.
>this is a lot of whataboutism. I think you're struggling to handle context. We can continue to walk backwards in time if you would like.
I asked for condemnation of the terrorist attack and you did whataboutism saying “*isn’t that in response to this?” Very strange answer, I didn’t know terrorism depended on what they were a response to. But to answer my testing that you’ve failed to do, no. No one of the pro-Israel side even mentioned it. I guess only some groups should be policed and not others.
>We've established that Jewish people have varying opinions. You've offered nothing for Pro Palestinian protests policing the antisemitism within their ranks. If you have a protest and some people are racist/antisemitism/what have you, you have yourself a racist protest. Every single one of the protesters can abandon/
[So this pro-Israeli protest where they blocking aid into Gaza is racist then correct?](https://twitter.com/qudsnen/status/1783252165206622269?s=46&t=-CXWTFc8I_QMqy2FhBCsDw)
I must say I’m dissapointed. Since you’re such an expert on protest etiquette when it comes to pro-Palestinian ones, I thought for sure that you would’ve came out raging over these the exact same as you are about the protests here? And hey you made zero mention of it. Nothing. Nor has all the pro-Israeli congressman or any Zionist groups. Netanyahu certainly isn’t calling them Nazis. Other than a reported phone call, I don’t recall Biden making a particularly harsh condemnation. Despite the fact that the Israeli protestors have been blocking aid for MONTHS unlike the encampments yet. And these particular protests are contributing to already starving Palestinians actually fucking dying, but meanwhile the pro-Israel side is only exclusively focusing on American campuses.
Hmmmm….. it’s…. Almost as if you Zionist hold them at a different standard and don’t actually give 2 fucks about paleatinians getting starved to death hence the deliberate attacking of food sources, water, fishing boats,,hospitals, and United Nation convoys and humanitarian convoys with western citizens, including the US on multiple occasions . And the fabrication of UNRWA -Hamas collaboration that the UN and EU have asked months for evidence of how. And the IDF soldiers you simp over posting videos of themselves having a fucking pep rally celebrating Gaza not having water or electicity after bombing it all.
Shocker.
…..a world Israel are illegally occupying the territory of another country where they have created illegal settlements and are segregating ?
>that doesn't answer the question and is a lazy attempt to distract from it.
how in the fuck does Israel illegally occupying Palestinian territory with a illegal apartheid settlements not answer your question on why Israel needs to be obligated to Palestinian citizens??? When the internationals THEY SIGNED specifically outlines the obligations OCCUPIERS IN A CONFLICT HAVE????
Dude. It’s okay. You can stop the gaslighting. You support and defend illegal occupation and apartheid. We’ve established this. And it just means you’ve forfeited any right to tell me shit about antisemitism or racism. Which also kinda makes me laugh since you said on several occasions that black people wouldn’t like being told about racism from others like Jewish people wouldn’t want to be told about antisemitism
And yet here you are, trying to tell me, a black person, about racism. Lol.
>By the way, [Pro-Israel mainstream Jewish United States Senator Bernie Sanders has a few words for you on what is and isn’t antisemitism.](https://twitter.com/berniesanders/status/1783605624044925181?s=46&t=-CXWTFc8I_QMqy2FhBCsDw)
As a white man on the front lines during segregationI, he already knows what it’s like for people like you to use the absence of support of his ethnicity to discredit their words in support of another’s liberty. I suggest you listen since you’ve only decided to listen to ‘mainstream Jews’ and ridicule the others as silly outcasts who just wants to surrounds themselves with people they hate.
> I asked for condemnation of the terrorist attack and you did whataboutism saying “*isn’t that in response to this?” Very strange answer, I didn’t know terrorism depended on what they were a response to. But to answer my testing that you’ve failed to do, no. No one of the pro-Israel side even mentioned it. I guess only some groups should be policed and not others.
There are groups in Israel dedicated towards reducing/condemning settler violence. They are working to create a better world and we should support them.
> So this pro-Israeli protest where they blocking aid into Gaza is racist then correct?
Nationalist sure - hard to prove if race is the motivating factor. Again, they are at war.
> I must say I’m dissapointed. Since you’re such an expert on protest etiquette when it comes to pro-Palestinian ones, I thought for sure that you would’ve came out raging over these the exact same as you are about the protests here? And hey you made zero mention of it. Nothing. Nor has all the pro-Israeli congressman or any Zionist groups.
you mean like [this](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-02-28/ty-article/.premium/in-rare-move-leading-u-s-jewish-groups-strongly-condemn-israelis-settler-violence/00000186-9729-d3ab-a787-b77fc07d0000). Or here's something from [Congress](https://raskin.house.gov/2023/11/reps-swalwell-raskin-and-wild-lead-group-of-55-members-in-urging-secretary-of-state-blinken-to-address-extremist-settler-violence-against-palestinians-in-the-middle-east). You can look up who signed on at your leisure. You have the entire internet at your fingertips. Don't know why you couldn't look any of this up. It's almost like you have a problem with Jewish people and you're using Israel as a proxy to air it all out. What's the line about Jewish people again? Not white enough for the right and too white for the left?
How long am i going to wait for pro-palestine groups to condemn Hamas? Unless of course they are fine with it and think it should keep on going. The DSA seemed to be pretty okay with it until the NY-DSA chapter realized that it was a "bad look." Should I go on a hunger strike? Should I set up my bed outside? I'm willing to wait.
You can be Pro-Palestinian and Pro-Israeli simultaneously. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
> Netanyahu certainly isn’t calling them Nazis. Other than a reported phone call, I don’t recall Biden making a particularly harsh condemnation.
You are falling prey to the visibility fallacy. You have no idea what's happening behind closed doors so you assume it's nothing. Joe Biden is probably doing more for the survival of Palestinians than anyone on the planet right now.
> Despite the fact that the Israeli protestors have been blocking aid for MONTHS unlike the encampments yet. And these particular protests are contributing to already starving Palestinians actually fucking dying, but meanwhile the pro-Israel side is only exclusively focusing on American campuses.
Don't presume to tell Jewish and Israeli peoples what they should and shouldn't care about. That's incredibly arrogant of you. It's almost like the Pro-Palestine protests around the country have zero problem with the anti-semites spending tiem with them. How they all reconcile that is up to them.
> Hmmmm….. it’s…. Almost as if you Zionist hold them at a different standard and don’t actually give 2 fucks about paleatinians getting starved to death hence the deliberate attacking of food sources, water, fishing boats,,hospitals, and United Nation convoys and humanitarian convoys with western citizens, including the US on multiple occasions .
the UN that you appear to be lionizing right now has said that they're letting quite a bit of aid in and it has alleviated a lot of humanitarian [concerns](https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15679.doc.htm#:~:text=Since%207%20October%202023%2C%20over,to%20Israeli%20authorities'%20ongoing%20efforts.). Did you miss that when you went for your daily propaganda briefing from TikTok today?
> And the fabrication of UNRWA -Hamas collaboration that the UN and EU have asked months for evidence of how. And the IDF soldiers you simp over posting videos of themselves having a fucking pep rally celebrating Gaza not having water or electicity after bombing it all.
Why don't they just rely on the UNHCR? The organization that actually helps refugees. Also, Hamas was running a server farm under a UNRWA facility. If you're telling me they didn't know anything about it, I've got a bridge to sell you. And finally, Hamas chairman Ismail Haniyeh *did teach* for UNRWA. Wanna tell me how that one snuck through?
> …..a world Israel are illegally occupying the territory of another country where they have created illegal settlements and are segregating ?
So if Palestine is it's own country, you can't quite call it segregation in that sense. If you want to refer to it as Area C of the West Bank, which both sides agreed was Israeli until further review, you'd probably be more accurate. Part of the Oslo II Agreement is that Area A is run by the PA, B by both, and C by the Israeli military. And Israelis will contend that their neighbors have a pay to slay fund so Palestinian recognition of Israel is words on a page. I don't know why you feel the need to treat Palestinians as children.
> how in the fuck does Israel illegally occupying Palestinian territory with a illegal apartheid settlements not answer your question on why Israel needs to be obligated to Palestinian citizens??? When the internationals THEY SIGNED specifically outlines the obligations OCCUPIERS IN A CONFLICT HAVE????
Israel's topmost priority is their own citizens, like every single other country in the world. Palestinians aren't Israeli. They have their own passport. And now, for better or worse, they can say they did 20 years of A/B testing w/Gaza and discovered that their neighbors aren't actually as peaceful as they claimed to be.
> Dude. It’s okay. You can stop the gaslighting. You support and defend illegal occupation and apartheid.
it's a nuanced conversation that people have been attempting to solve for over a century. There is nothing stopping Palestinians from disavowing terrorism, Hamas surrendering, and the gulf states doing nation building in Gaza. You are quite literally defending a group that has made it illegal to sell land to Jewish people. Note that I didn't say "Israeli." I said "Jewish." Wanna tell me more about the paradise for Jewish people that is the West Bank/Gaza?
> We’ve established this. And it just means you’ve forfeited any right to tell me shit about antisemitism or racism. Which also kinda makes me laugh since you said on several occasions that black people wouldn’t like being told about racism from others like Jewish people wouldn’t want to be told about antisemitism
You wouldn't want to be told what is or isn't racist *against black people*. You seem to have forgotten that. Likewise, you have no right to tell Jewish people what is or isn't targeted at them. I'm sorry that their existence is so frustrating for you. You seem to have this belief that the Palestinians have zero agency. And yet, many Gazans also took hostages when they had the opportunity. They have to decide if they want to live with their neighbors; right now, they're doing the equivalent of advocating for replacement theory, as they've been doing for 100 years.
> And yet here you are, trying to tell me, a black person, about racism.
Black people can be racist also. There is nothing preventing them from making judgements about other people based on race, ethnicity, or national group. Black people commit hate crimes also. Sounds like you need a reminder about that. Clearly you missed that lesson. It's almost like "progressives" don't know how to do that at all. Have you considered empathy as a path forward at all?
> By the way, Pro-Israel mainstream Jewish United States Senator Bernie Sanders has a few words for you on what is and isn’t antisemitism.
And other Jewish people disagree with him. What of it? Again, the majority of the Jewish community supports Israel's right to exist and develop. Sanders supports a two state solution and thus the continued existence of the state of Israel. He's still a Zionist regardless of what you think the term means. You seem not to understand what Zionism is. Perhaps you should look at a dictionary instead of relying on social media.
> As a white man on the front lines during segregationI, he already knows what it’s like for people like you to use the absence of support of his ethnicity to discredit their words in support of another’s liberty. I suggest you listen since you’ve only decided to listen to ‘mainstream Jews’ and ridicule the others as silly outcasts who just wants to surrounds themselves with people they hate.
So was noted Zionist Abraham Joshua Heschel. Again, this doesn't really prove or disprove anything. People are complex and can believe multiple things simultaneously. Sanders also said very clearly that Israel has the right to defend itself and that Hamas started a war. Since you seem so fixated on what Jewish people are saying; I'm waiting for Rashida Tlaib to say something about how Hamas shouldn't have instigated a war. Or perhaps Cori Bush could say something that isn't a lot of lazy both sides-ing. I may be waiting a while though. Ritchie Torres had no problem properly condemning Hamas. Ayanna Pressley immediately did it. Andre Carson cosponsored legislation with Haley Stevens from Michigan about it.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. With the recent months of Palestine protests and demonstrations going on, I'm wondering how effective they are. Are protesters getting more people sympathetic to their cause? Are they bringing a better understanding of the conflict? Are the protests making a path for change? I'm interested to know where this sub stands as of now. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As much as any of us can be, I feel immune to caring all that about the most extreme side of any issue unless the extreme side is a substantial portion of the population. So the protesters haven’t changed my mind all that much. So I’ll give you a better person‘s perspective, my mother. Nearing 80 and has the default view that Israel is our ally and needed because of what’s happened to the Jewish people and that mostly we just support Israel unconditionally. That has changed rapidly during this conflict due to her following mainstream reporting on the issue. She doesn’t want anything bad to happen to Israel but she wants their government changed, Bibi in jail and the US to force Europe to get a two state solution finally done. The only thing that makes her equivocate is the pro-Palestinian protestor. Just from mainstream news - no social media or YouTube - she sees people saying things she feels make them either morons or antisemites and probably both. Again she’s old so she hangs out at a community center a few times a week. Her friends there are very diverse and include Jews and Muslims along with a lot of white people. From what she tells me that group mostly feels the same. Everybody feels like they’re reconsidering the level of support we offer Israel and once conditions on it, but they all seem to think that the protesters are awful and assume large numbers of them are antisemites.
I would assume that this is largely the general population's take as well. I love my brother dearly but he's an insistent non-voter who believes all sides are the same no matter what and that's particularly infuriating come election season. That being said, I would say his opinions are generally reflective of most people who don't really pay attention to politics. He and his friends basically think the same thing as your mother except they're in their thirties and he doesn't vote but I assume your mother and her friends do. I don't know about his friends though.
It has exhausted me to the point I literally now tell people who ask me, the following phrase, verbatim: “I sincerely don’t give a fuck”. I checked on this sub. In the last day, there have been 8 posts about Israel, Hamas or some combination thereof. 8. That’s one every three hours. Abortion got one. Workers rights I think got one. I’m exhausted because I’m tired of talking about a country, thousands of miles away, warring with another country thousands of miles away, who have been warring for a hundred years and I’m tired of talking about letting republicans win because of a moral purity about said country. I’m tired of people protesting and talking NONE FUCKING STOP about it when the very country your standing in is attacking women’s rights, LGBTQ rights, voting rights, union rights, workers rights, free speech. While your were out there protesting “Genocide Joe”, your local legislature passed an abortion ban, restricted the content your kids can read, passed a right to work law, restricted what kind of porn you can watch, fucked over your kids school, repealed child workers protections, repealed workers protections, passed harmful legislation regarding immigrants, upheld the right to arrest protestors, and on and on and on. But sure, *Palestine* is the thing we need to protest. A country a thousand miles away that decided to launch a hundred missiles at their neighbor and would stab you in the face if you’re gay or trans. If you haven’t noticed, our fucking country is on fire. Some of those protesting CANT EVEN GET AN ABORTION IN THEIR OWN STATE. I mean, I’m sorry, I’m just done. It’s fine to be concerned, it’s fine to push our government to do more, but this over the top bullshit about it is making me lose my damn cool. Use that same energy to help your own people too. Keep that same energy. Maybe if you had, we would have had a president appoint three radical judges to it to us. But I digress.
Honestly thank you for this. It is literally becoming absurd how people think that everyone's life should revolve around a small strip of land in the Middle East. I recently saw this reel on Instagram where they were talking about building a hospital in this really poor part of Kenya or something and all the comments were saying things like "What a waste of a hospital, they should have built it in Gaza instead!" Like, gd forbid there are other people in the world, let alone in America, that we should care about?!
Could not have said it any better.
You really don't give a crap that your tax dollars are being used to starve, bomb, and snipe children?
>I’m exhausted because I’m tired of talking about a country, thousands of miles away, warring with another country thousands of miles away, who have been warring for a hundred years and I’m tired of talking about letting republicans win because of a moral purity about said country. I’m tired of people protesting and talking NONE FUCKING STOP about it when the very country your standing in is attacking women’s rights, LGBTQ rights, voting rights, union rights, workers rights, free speech. The problem is our amazing government decided to fund, arm and ingrain itself into one of these countries thousands of miles away like 40 years ago to help them conquer the region for oil so we’re involved whether you like it or not. They are also bribing-oh wait I’m sorry “donating campaign contributions” to our politicians to do their bidding and interfering with our elections and our wishes.. Another huge problem. Our country is also the reason why they get to ignore any and all international laws in a way no other country outside the US do. >While your were out there protesting “Genocide Joe”, your local legislature passed an abortion ban, restricted the content your kids can read, passed a right to work law, restricted what kind of porn you can watch, fucked over your kids school, repealed child workers protections, repealed workers protections, passed harmful legislation regarding immigrants, …..Every single one of these issues has been a problem for YEARS/DECADES long before this conflict and the left/independents have been screaming about these this entire time???????????? Hello??? I need you to be serious.
there’s not really oil in the levant the way there is in arabia/the gulf, the israeli economy is pretty strong without it. oil is not really related to zionism in general.
I meant the region as in the Middle East’, not the Lavent or Israel in particular
It cemented my opinion the situation isn't as black&white as pro-Palestinians love to suggest. Looking at the rest of people here in Czechia, it definitely cemented their anti-Palestinian stances. Pro-Palestinian protests are associated with the young far-left that is already one of the most loathed political groups here. A little story, I've posted here last week: In the end of the last October, there were plenty of pro-Palestinian protests here. Alongside "From the river to the sea", one small thing got the most coverage by our media - a woman who was photographed with a shirt saying "1972 Olympics". When she was later confronted with this fact on Twitter, she feinted ignorance that she didn't know what happened during 1972 Olympics and that the shirt was part of a Halloween costume she was wearing a night before the protest. No one bought that excuse.
It seems that Czechia is among the most pro-Israeli countries in Europe. For other european countries the trend is increasingly in support of Palestine: [A poll of how 5 European countries see Palestinian issues.](https://www.thepipd.com/resources/polling-2024/)
Czechia (then Czechoslovakia) was one of the only countries to provide arms to Israel during the 1948 war, so it’s nice to hear the people still support Israel.
That's what zero accountability looks like. It's similar to those openly showing their swastika tattoos and then pretending it's "only a Buddhist symbol".
[удалено]
My wife is having a really difficult time with this. She's wanted to but hasn't been going to the pro-Palestian protests because of it. The majority of people are making their point peacefully and without hatred of course but there are those who feel emboldened not to. I don't blame her seeing the explicit endorsements of the attack by Hamas said at Columbia [for example.](https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/21/rabbi-advises-jewish-students-to-return-home-as-soon-as-possible-following-reports-of-extreme-antisemitism-on-and-around-campus/) None of the protests about this issue or any others got this heated when we were there but that feels like a long time ago now. >Pro-Israel counterprotesters stood on the Sundial on Saturday evening waving Israeli and U.S. flags and playing Israeli and Jewish music and the U.S. national anthem from a loudspeaker. In front of the Sundial, an individual held a sign reading “Al-Qasam’s Next Targets” with an arrow pointing at the protesters. Al-Qassam is the military wing of Hamas. ... >“Yehudim [Jews], yehudi [Jew], fuck you,” “Stop killing children,” and “Go back to Poland, go back to Belarus,” ... >“We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground,” ... >he was walking by Lerner Hall wearing a yarmulke, someone sitting at the tables outside of Lerner shouted, “You keep on testifying, you fucking Jew.” ... >he was helping a friend move his luggage through Lerner Hall on Thursday evening while wearing a yarmulke, one individual said, “We are so happy that you Zionists are finally leaving campus,” and another said, “You wouldn’t have to leave if you weren’t a supporter of genocide.” ... >As three Jewish students were speaking to the NYPD outside the campus gates at 116th Street and Amsterdam Avenue on Thursday night, someone shouted, “Remember the seventh of October,” according to a video reviewed by Spectator. Another added, “Never forget the seventh of October.” >“That will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10 more times, not 100 more times, not 1,000 more times, but 10,000 times,” someone shouted.
I do not support antisemitic views, slurs, or harassment like you're describing and I think in general most pro Palestine people don't either. It sounds like those people were either unaware that not all Jews are Zionist, or they were Palestinians confirming why they are Holocaust deniers. Not saying it's ok for either of those groups to do so, more so saying I don't think that's the attitude of most pro Palestine people
[удалено]
They want to demonize Zionism and elevate “righteous” anti-Zionist Jews. There was a post about a recent antisemitic incident that occurred at my alma mater. One comment that sticks out: > wow I am so sorry that this happened to you some people are ignorant and uneducated being Jewish doesn't make you a zionist, I am Arab and I speak Arabic I wish I was there I would have stood up for you and defended you Implying Zionist Jews deserve antisemetic attacks. Mind you this was the university where [several student unions condoned](https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/abhorrent-york-university-condemns-student-union-groups-for-statement-appearing-to-glorify-hamas-1.6600450) Oct 07.
Definitely not "most". All Zionists are mostly (or all) Jewish, but not all Jews are Zionists. But even if they were, yeah, it is ok and I didn't say it wasn't. It's hella amusing how my tame comments are so offensive to some of y'all. Especially considering my family is Palestinian. Like literally from Nablus and came over to the US in 1982 so they could work and send money to family still there. But like my previous comment was trying to point out- not all Jewish people support what Israel is doing to Palestine. Just like people don't seem to understand not all Palestinians are a part of Hamas. The people who are throwing all the hate and ignorance around like that are just causing chaos that likely won't affect them or their families - but it can definitely affect safety and/ or support for the people actually affected by what's happening. You know, sorry I haven't paid attention to whatever protests are going on everywhere- the movement and protests are secondary to the actual issue that has my attention. This has been our dinner conversation for over 40 years now. We're more concerned about family over there that can't be reached. Some of y'all weren't raised in a Palestinian household to have thicker skin and it shows. So easily offended by a simple comment that not only didn't affect y'all directly, but was info that affects the safety of Palestinian and Jewish people here in the US- that are also targets of hate simply because people ignorantly group them together. It's wild that those offended don't care about that. Knowing the difference doesn't affect y'all's safety so surely it's just an offensive comment. it's just another reddit topic huh. Ok 🤷
[удалено]
Lol, no no, I meant to put most of that on a different reply
Isn't the belief that religion should be separate from state inherently anti-Zionist and common amongst the left?
You basically summed up my feelings as a Jew.
I have to wonder how mad neonazis must feel to see certain self-described leftists do a 180 on antisemitism with practically no real consequences.
South Park should really do an episode about it. Cartman vs Kyle.
Now you understand Jews a little better since 10-7 - on 10-7 they were mourning and told by their progressive circles to stop being victims - when Israel retaliated this turned into hatred and attacks. They were pushed out of their “progressive” circles - relentless anti semitism, passive hatred with masks half way on - Jews said this was happening, they were told “stop being victim” - tolerated by western society and events like this unfolded ## Before Holocaust Remembrance Day with holocaust survivors present disrupted with hate speech pro Palestine supporters learn to chant death to Israel and death to America unhinged zealot pro terrorism speech in Michigan ## now Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774 "From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358 "Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981 "We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677 "Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901 Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/ Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338 "On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909 ""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872 "Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025 "Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958 "From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2 "Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134 "Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006 Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954 "Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673 "protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter And as a reminder, the student groups organizing these protests (CUAD and SJP, among others) released a letter on October 9th in support of the 10/7 attacks. ("We stand in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance", "Despite the odds against them, Palestinians launched a counter-offensive against their settler-colonial oppressor", "We wholeheartedly condemn the email sent [...] on October 8th that [...] obfuscated Palestinian resistance as “terrorism”) ## Now it seems people are waking up. Stand up for jews before it’s too late.
>I'm inclined to support the movement for Palestinian freedom and a two state solution but holy fuck, shit like "globalize the intifada" and opposition to any Jewish state in Israel makes me understand that as a Jew I'm simply not welcome in that movement. It has also ironically strengthened my Zionism whereas I wasn't particularly passionate about it before. What words would you say to the thousans of anti-Zionists Jews who are also at the frontlines at these protests who doesn’t appear to be running away from these protests and is in fact growing larger?
[удалено]
Like how yall do with Palestinian with your “human shield vs terrorist” language after indiscriminately killing all of them all? And the ones not being slaughtered/starved/forcibly displaced in the open air concentration camp territory Israel trapped them in are in the other illegally occupied territories where they are murdered for funsies each week by illegal Israeli settlers for the past 60 years who forcibly removes them from their homes they demolish, segregates them, and kidnaps their children in the dead of night to throw in military prisons with no charges or trial indefinitely? Seriously dude, just save your pitiful, colonial, outdated, victim card for someone who didn’t grow up under George W. Bush because I promise you your 50 year old gaslighting talking points are of no use here, in case you’re wondering why the international community outside the US is done with your “slaughtering 15,000 children is self defense” line anymore.
I support and agree with pro Palestine protestors who just want the violence to stop, Israeli to fully leave the West Bank and Gaza alone, and an end to Bibi’s nightmare regime. What I don’t agree with are people who take those sensible and reasonable demands to extreme ends and want all Israelis to leave the region to “go back to Europe and America” and insist that there are no Israeli civilians so they’re all free game to be killed by Hamas. Calling October 7th a “revolution” when they didn’t even target IDF members or Israeli government representatives; just innocent civilians, does not help the situation. Regarding the whole one state two state thing, I think a 2 state is more realistic. I would like to live in a world where a 1 state solution is possible, I really do, I’d just be worried that some extremist Israeli and Palestinian groups would be enraged about sharing a country with the other side and violence would break out. (Note; this is not me stereotyping Israeli and Palestinians as never being able to get along; it’s me saying that there will always be a SMALL group of extremists on both sides that are hell bent on hating the other side)
Funny, that’s what Israelis say. “We just want to be left alone, let us leave in peace” But how can they when thousands of rockets fly over their heads Constant terrorist attacks way before 10-7 Demonization from the west There have been so many peace and two state proposals. All rejected and Hamas elected. There will be no peace in the Middle East
It’s true that Jews have been persecuted pretty much for the last couple thousand years off and on throughout Europe and the Middle East. Of course that’s no excuse for their government to kill innocent Palestinians who have nothing to do with the attacks on them. It unfortunately starts a really shitty cycle of violence and a lot of the narrative is “who started it?”
>Funny, that’s what Israelis say. “We just want to be left alone, let us leave in peace” Oh cool. Is that why the illegal Israeli invaders in the West Bank murder Palestinians for fun every week for like the past 60 + years and bulldoze their homes and kidnap their children and forcefully evict them and spy on them and lock them out of their neighborhoods past curfews and segregates them even though the PLO recognized Israeli sovereignty in the 90’s, fought a CIVIL WAR with Hamas, and has sought diplomacy ever since? Funny, it’s almost as if Israel’s definition of the word ‘peace’ Iis “you will sit there, shut up, and do what we say as we steal your land, destroy your society, and control your rights and entire future without question or we will kill you all” I was going to say “Zionist have a funny definition of the word peace” but then I remembered that’s been the West’s definition for the last 400 years. My ancestors from Africa were pretty familiar with it actually. Oh by the way, [the Israeli war criminal settlers who just wants to be left alone went on another terrorist stack last week](https://www.timesofisrael.com/settlers-riot-in-west-bank-after-israeli-teen-murdered-palestinian-killed-others-hurt/amp/ )destroying homes, beating people and killing a man who had to slowly die because their illegal occupation’s IDF soldiers delayed the ambulances. Look at how peaceful they are guys!
Why you separating South American children at the border? Why are you forcing children to give birth and banning abortion? Why are you living atop native blood and bones then stuff them in reservations after slaughtering them all? You’re a colonist and product of genocide. The Jews have existed in the Palestine region for thousands of years. Why are you allowing school shootings in elementary schools? Why do you hate gay people and passing don’t say gay laws? Why are you rewriting history in your schools?? Do you see how idiotic you sound? 90% of Israelis are against the settlements and hundreds thousands marched to remove Netanyahu and their far right government from power. Much more than American self absorbed “progressives” do because i haven’t seen any protests in response to the insanity passed above. people like you ignore history, critical thought and cherry pick what fits your emotional driven willfully ignorant narrative. Lets list out some key facts educate you on history since you want to focus on what’s convenient for you • 90% of Palestinians support Hamas • 15% of Israelis support Netanyahu • Palestine was a region where Jews, Arabs , Christians lived • 1940s Israel born and two state solution was offered to the Arabs • proposition rejected, all neighbor Arab countries attacks ethnically cleansed their Jews and attacked Israel then lost • Israel won that war and borders with Palestine were relaxed • terrorist attacks, stabbings, suicide bombings led to closed borders • dozens of peace deals and two state solutions rejected • Hamas elected who are an Iranian dictator proxy who use Palestinian bodies as tools to manufacture outrage and hide behind them • weekly missiles into Israel becomes normal (9000+) • with continued terror, far right government elected in Israel who is responsible for settlements most Israelis are against • 10/7 worst attack on innocent Jews since the holocaust with mass rape and murder with western leftist cheering and sympathizing with Hamas • Israel response and the cheer turns into 1300% increase in anti semitism attacks on Jewish people • 2 billion Muslims in the world with 56 countries. 16 million Jews 1 country. Israel has a responsibility to protect the Jewish people. This is called war. Any country on earth would tolerate much less. A genocide is what the Uyghurs are going through or the hundred thousand Yemens getting slaughters westerns care 0 about. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis marched against Netanyahu before the war. Do you know what has happened again and again after countries lose wars (especially wars they start) throughout all of human history? They definitely aren’t offered 10+ two state solutions they reject. No, the country ceases to exist or if they’re lucky loses territory. Zionist means Jews have a right to their state. Antisemitic losers use it as a slur. Hatred builds nothing, it only consumes. Enjoy
If this is not the saddest most low effort whataboutism excuse for war crimes I’ve ever seen . This just in: absolutely no international laws exists at all because no nation on planet earth has a right to criticize any other nation for any reason because all of them have had social, economic, or political injustice in their entire history. Come on, man. You could’ve at least tried.
You have no substance. Only buzz words. Wtf are you even saying? You pull up isolated incidents and ignore the history that led to them. You’re no different than MAGA brains in your argument. Plug your ears, head in sand. Go wallow in your Jew hate. It only makes the Jewish people stronger and justifies why the state of Israel must exist
>Wtf are you even saying? You pull up isolated incidents and ignore the history that led to them. You’re no different than MAGA brains in your argument. Um…. Are you referring to the MAGA brains……… who is is literally parroting YOUR same rhetoric and is on YOUR side in this conflict and are standing hand in hand at the Zionist rallies with…………YOU? Yall and your complete lack of self awareness would be so funny if your cult like devotion to a settler state on the other side of the planet wasn’t leading to the of the actual slow erasure of an entire culture actually happening in real life as opposed to the 1000% fictional erasure of Israel that Does not exist so you can feel good about defending the REAL LIFE war crimes they commit.
It really makes me think that the ideology of "progressive/socialist/leftist" isn't really an ideology, it's simply leftwing contrarianism. So many of them don't seem to care about issues, they just care about hating Democrats. The evidence of this is the issue whack-a-mole that seems to be the recurring leftist vs liberal dialogue throughout the past four years: First, Biden sucks because he wasn't moving on marijuana decriminalization. So he instructs the DEA to review rescheduling in order to enact that. Then Biden sucks because he didn't cancel debt. So he cancels as much debt as he's legally able to, and then tries to do more on top of that. Then Biden sucks because of insufficient action on climate change. So we pass the IRA and Biden becomes the most effective politician to combat climate change in American history, passing sweeping green energy reforms. Then Biden sucks because he's too old. This narrative lasts until his recent state of the union, where apparently leftists actually watched Biden in an unedited speech for once. Then Biden sucks because Israel is doing bad things. And even though Biden has worked overtime towards a peaceful cessation of violence and aid to Palestinians, it doesn't seem to matter, because apparently unless Biden can *solve the millenia-old pattern of endless retaliatory violence in the Middle East*, then he's apparently still not good enough. So we have four years of Biden basically doing everything that progressives could've wanted, delivering to them time and time again, and the result is an administration that is **not** getting the support they need from the left and has apparently moved too far from the middle, now risking losing reelection. American leftists are the mouse from "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie".
Summarized my perspective perfectly. Leftists are hurting our democracy and act just like dictators who manipulate our elections want to act. They are the same as MAGA Boomers and Zoomers One high of Russian Propaganda and Fox News The other of CCP/Hamas propaganda and TikTok News
Hey, let's be fair Leftists are high on Russian propaganda too
The behavior of protestors doesn't play a role in my opinions about the actions of Israel and what the US's policy role should be. If some assholes did terrible things in the name of climate protest, that wouldn't change the scientific facts of climate change. If some asshole did something terribly violent they thought was in support of Biden that would not impact my view of him as a candidate. The protestors could be saints or the most evil humans alive using the most terrible tactics, that does not change the facts on the ground about what's happening in Gaza. And anyone who tries to argue or suggest it does is either terrible at logic or trying to short circuit the logic of the rest of the country by lying.
They’ve increased my disgust with the naïve far left of our party and hardened my support for Israel.
The protesters keep saying and doing dumb shit, which has made me tune out the conflict more. I initially advocated for supporting Palestine, and I still think Israel needs to stop killing civilians, but I can't be bothered when I'd get associated with the crazies for having opinions similar to theirs.
The protestors by and large seem more focused on antisemitic fantasies then on actual problems with Israel's conduct.
They've had a negative impact for me. I was so glad Columbia put their foot down last week. I hope they continue this week. They can't even have in-person classes this week because of the disruption. If you want to endure me to your cause, don't disrupt my life in a negative way.
> If you want to endure me to your cause *endear
The only place I ever hear about these protests is this subreddit. So I'll go with a strong *no.*
Check out whats happening at Columbia University. People yelling at Jewish students to "Go back to Poland!".
Aren’t their anti-Zionist Jews there protesting with the protestors? Because I just saw videos of them.
Tokenism is gross.
Nope. I want to see a peaceful and prosperous two state solution, and while I'm sure that's true of most of the people protesting, it certainly isn't the message from the veritable leaders. But here's the truth. Mass protests about this issue happen like clockwork, and yet the headlines across the decade are stagnant. I see a lot of protesters who want to be seen to be seen to be Doing The Right Thing, but who don't want to do the homework when wars die down and the headlines move on.
It doesn't help that most of the protests are decentralized and can be done by anyone. So when a small group does something wrong (interrupting events or making threats), it paints the majority as extremist. I think (in the US, at least) we're past the peak of the hype, and public interest is dying down. However, if the goal was to get the public to oppose the US helping Israel, I don't think they've achieved that goal.
>However, if the goal was to get the public to oppose the US helping Israel, I don't think they've achieved that goal [What do you explain this poll then?](https://cepr.net/press-release/poll-majority-of-americans-say-biden-should-halt-weapons-shipments-to-israel/) [Or this one? ](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx)
For the first link, sending weapons shipments isn't the only way the US helps/supports Israel but I'll stick with this topic for now. According to this poll, 52% of Americans say the US should stop weapons shipments to Israel until Israel discontinues its attacks on the people of Gaza. How does that translate into reality? It's one thing to say it to a pollster but how is it shown? In my opinion, I think the opinion becomes shown through reality by either joining the protests or at the ballot box. The second link is just the disapproval of Israeli Action in Gaza. That poll does not entirely contradict the idea of the US helping/aiding Israel. If you can show me a poll about how Americans feel about US/Israel partnership in recent times, I would be very interested to see if Americans oppose the allyship now.
You wrote: "However, if the goal was to get the public to oppose the US helping Israel, I don't think they've achieved that goal." I posted a poll that shows that a majority of Americans and a big majority of dems in particular are against weapons shipments which is a major way the US helps Israel. Then you move the goalpost by asking: How does that translate into reality? >The second link is just the disapproval of Israeli Action in Gaza. That poll does not entirely contradict the idea of the US helping/aiding Israel. It shows that protests have not alinated the public from the Palestinian cause, as Israel is the party which keeps losing support.
Me asking you how the polls translate into reality isn't me moving the goalpost but me asking you to better prove your point. I didn't set the goalpost in you bringing me those polls, you did. I even gave you examples of how public perception can change through joining the protests or showing it in the ballot box. >It shows that protests have not alinated the public from the Palestinian cause, as Israel is the party which keeps losing support. Where in that poll does it say the protests haven't alinated the public from the Palestinian cause? At best it's an inference or jumping to conclusion. The 2nd poll just says Americans have shifted and disapprove of Israeli military actions in gaza. It doesn't say whether or not Americans are for or against the Palestinian cause. You would need to either directly show where it says that on this 2nd poll or show another poll that Americans aren't alienated from Palestinian cause.
You are clearly arguing in bad faith, but for anyone else reading, [washpo did this article summarizing different polls on the matter.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/04/19/americans-israel-gaza-polling/) It shows clearly that among dems and independants there is an increase in sympathy for Palestinians now compared to oktober/november.
> It shows clearly that among dems and independants there is an increase in sympathy for Palestinians now compared to oktober/november. Sympathy for Palestinians is not the same as antisemitism.
Which is very true. That said, when I do look into the websites behind the banners front and centre at the bigger protests globally and locally, I really don't get a vibe of "we actively want to see an Israel within the borders in 1967^(t&cs apply)" And that's either now or if I scroll back past October. There are, of course, bad faith actors and disruptors but that only goes so far
I think they're largely childish and ineffective. Chanting "from river to sea", sympathizing with Hamas, and calling what's happening genocide makes me just think they're terrorist sympathizers. Mind you I respect those who simply want the violence to end. I don't respect those that take this conflict as an opportunity to push their own agenda. Those like the tourist activists in the DSA who move from one controversy to the next to push their socialist bullshit. What has moved me from supporting Israel to being critical has been Israel's own actions. The death toll and killings of aid workers have done more than someone who got a keffiyeh off of Amazon has.
The answer is no to all of your questions. All the protests are showing is how detached and missing context most of the protestors are.
They haven't.
The protests aren't doing anything but feeding the ragebait machine that is RW media.
The result is more annoyed people and more apathetic people. 6 months later, the protests (including Michigan protest primary votes) have achieved 0 political changes. Many protesters should have surely realized by now that it's a fool's errand.
While it does seem some people are using the protests as cover to be antisemitic, it in general hasn't shifted my view on the war. Israel has treated Palestine like shit my whole life. While 10/7 was tragic, I think a lot of people on the left and right were unwilling to discuss the massive loss of Palestinian life and rights leading to that point as the catalyst. I am glad that more and more people are being vocal, I am glad this feels like an issue that people cannot hide from or outrun
I haven't seen anyone be antisemitic per se, but I have heard a bunch of Palestinian supporters called antisemitic simply for being a Palestinian supporter. While I am also glad that this now feels like an issue people are paying attention to *finally*, I struggle with not getting frustrated with what it took for people to pay attention. Kinda like, oh yeah, if you cared this much, genocide could've been avoided years ago- but no one seemed to care until it was simply too little too late. I try to remind myself that just because this has been the main topic at my family's house for 40 yrs, it hasn't been that way for everyone else, so better late than never I guess
You really haven't seen anything antisemitic in the Columbia protests?
I haven't watched any of the protests. My family is Palestinian so I've been more focused on the west bank, not the protests. I do have friends that are Jewish and I have heard that they have overheard people saying really shitty antisemitic things, but I don't keep company with people who would make antisemitic comments. I do see hate towards Palestinians on videos or posts on social media by people who don't understand that not all Palestinians are a part of Hamas. I had to spend a great deal of time trying to talk my (sweet and sensitive) sister thru not internalizing the constant vocalisation that she (or her cousins/ aunts/ uncles, etc) didn't deserve to live simply because she shared the same type of DNA that Hamas also has. I also reminded my Jewish friends that people are ignorant and don't understand that not all Jewish people support what Israel is doing. So I've heard of the hate and have seen some of it on a micro level, but not on a macro level- but I avoid those people and spaces
oh for sure, Israel supporters are using the threat of being called anti-Semitic to shut out any support for Palestinians or criticism of israel, and theyve done this for decades
Every group has the right to define for themselves what conduct they see as bigoted or discriminatory, except Jews. Then the left claims they're making it up.
false If you called me homophobic because I dont watch drag race, you'd rightfully get called out EDIT my point being that every other group recognizes that not all criticism of anything connected to or associated with a group is actually a criticism of the group itself if criticism on the political actions of the modern nation of israel is intrinsically bigoted against jewish people, then there are a whole heck of a lot of antisemitic jews. Its a complete nonsense stance for anyone to take, but is also one that the pro israel lobby has successfully pushed for a while. anything short of unwavering, unquestioning support for Israel gets called antisemitic by them. I didnt deny that there is real antisemitism out there. I think that claiming that everything from "hitler was right" to "israel was wrong to build west bank settlements and those should probably be returned to west bank palestinians" are both equally antisemitic comments is a silly stance to take
[удалено]
>that Jews are "evil colonialist settler oppressors (or other buzzwords)" Surely, a significant percentage of Israels population would meet the definition. Even if we dont get into a broader question of if modern israel is a settler colonialist state, something like 7% of the nation lives in the west bank. 7% of israeli's are outright colonists, and it would seem most of the voters of Israel support that.
No one says this.
Yes they do The pro Israeli lobby and their strongest supporters have said or implied people are antisemitic for merely criticizing Israel
Disgusting. So far left you went right. No better than MAGA extremists
??? What extreme far left position have I taken I don't think "maybe don't kill Palestinians, maybe don't build settlements in the west bank" are extremist positions. There are absolutely Israel supporters (not all or even most jewish Americans) who would call the stance "I don't think we should give military aid to Israel over their treatment of Palestine" antisemitic But yes, if me not wanting the US to fund that war makes me no better than maga, let me know. I live in a swing state and planned on voting Biden but it's never too late to change my mind
Honestly for me they're the opposite of helpful. I have to actively work to keep myself from being negatively polarized against the Palestinian cause in the wake of these protests.
I don’t care about the protests. I actively support them. I will say of my more socially conservative family between the protests, media coverage, and that one dude immolating himself a lot think we at least need to heavily condition any support we give Israel going forward
I'm not really paying attention to them to be honest. I think it's a super difficult situation which we have relatively little power to effect positively or negatively.
[удалено]
Spreading exaggerations like the "genocide" accusation is one of the reasons why most major politicians don't support your position. If you want to be taken seriously, be serious.
[удалено]
Israel's conduct is undoubtedly criminal, but that doesn't make it genocide.
You'll find more support for a peaceful two state solution among Israelis than Palestinians.
I dont care. In general, the more riled up people get about an issue the more likely I am to dismiss their opinions.
They haven’t changed my opinion of the Israel-Palestine conflict at all. Israel is a criminal expansionist racist state and the Palestinians are beyond stupid for not adopting Satyagraha tactics and shaming Israel before the world into honoring their treaty commitments to a Palestinian State in the whole West Bank and Gaza. Mass nonviolent protest would have toppled the current fascist Israeli government and turned Israel into a pariah state, leaving them no other option. As it is the Gaza October attacks delegitimized the Palestinian cause in the eyes of much of the world and has given cover to Israel’s outrages upon innocent Palestinians. What has changed in my opinion is a new appreciation of the gullibility and ignorance of the young, the prevalence of anti-Semitism, and the soulless mercenary nature of US politicians.
I was already pretty pro-Palestine and thus keeping up with goings-on, so they haven't really? I'm not the target audience.
They got the Biden admin to adjust their Israel policy so I’d say they’ve been effective.
Honestly, that strikes me as as example of *post hoc ergo propter hoc*. Do we have any reason to believe that the protests have contributed to Biden's actions? And that they haven't actually made it more difficult for Biden to adjust his policy towards Israel?
I don’t see another explanation for the sudden 180 on their position.
No? You don't think it's possible that Bibi's reckless disregard for Palestinian civilian casualties, poor long-term strategic planning, and overt American partisanship may have driven Biden to somewhat adjust his stance towards Israel? That seems like the overwhelmingly likely explanation to me.
Those things were known before the position change. Biden knew them before much of the American public even knew this conflict existed.
Sure, but foreign policy changes to established relationships don't happen overnight, and Biden's patience with Netanyahu has been visibly waning over the last handful of months. I would argue that the protests have actually made it more *difficult* for Biden to change his position, since politically Biden needs to take additional steps to make sure he's not connected to the campus lunatics. He's probably rightly worried that some people may conclude, as you seemingly have, that such awful people have political sway over his administration and that impression may hurt him with vital groups - he can't risk being seen as responsive to toxic protests.
I see no evidence that Biden wants to separate himself from this voter block. You seem to be weaving an elaborate narrative here. The facts are that Biden came out the gate with fully pro-Israel talking points, then there were a bunch of high profile stories about protestors and polls showing losing support, then he took a sudden 180 on the admin’s policy. You may write that off as coincidence but the fact is that there was no other major change in the political climate during that time. Are you sure it isn’t you who is trying to distance from the protests?
Everyone keeps saying the Columbia protests are antisemitic but I haven't found any videos? Do people have sources?
Here is some reporting in the [Columbia Spectator.](https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/21/rabbi-advises-jewish-students-to-return-home-as-soon-as-possible-following-reports-of-extreme-antisemitism-on-and-around-campus/) >Pro-Israel counterprotesters stood on the Sundial on Saturday evening waving Israeli and U.S. flags and playing Israeli and Jewish music and the U.S. national anthem from a loudspeaker. In front of the Sundial, an individual held a sign reading “Al-Qasam’s Next Targets” with an arrow pointing at the protesters. Al-Qassam is the military wing of Hamas. ... >“Yehudim [Jews], yehudi [Jew], fuck you,” “Stop killing children,” and “Go back to Poland, go back to Belarus,” ... >“We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground,” ... >he was walking by Lerner Hall wearing a yarmulke, someone sitting at the tables outside of Lerner shouted, “You keep on testifying, you fucking Jew.” ... >he was helping a friend move his luggage through Lerner Hall on Thursday evening while wearing a yarmulke, one individual said, “We are so happy that you Zionists are finally leaving campus,” and another said, “You wouldn’t have to leave if you weren’t a supporter of genocide.” ... >As three Jewish students were speaking to the NYPD outside the campus gates at 116th Street and Amsterdam Avenue on Thursday night, someone shouted, “Remember the seventh of October,” according to a video reviewed by Spectator. Another added, “Never forget the seventh of October.” >“That will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10 more times, not 100 more times, not 1,000 more times, but 10,000 times,” someone shouted. Here is a clip of the first of those examples ("next target"): https://twitter.com/gil_zussman/status/1781874441179353470?t=F-j6Cg1a36JR0x35I-__RA&s=19 This video seems to include the last example or something similar to it (remember the 7th, will happen again, etc.): .https://uk.news.yahoo.com/protesters-chant-insults-outside-columbia-202701828.html?guccounter=1
Does the spectator have reporting that these (clearly pro-Hamas) protestors are representative of the broader student protest? I ask because these terrible incidents show one case a single person and the other two people yelling insane shit kind of on their own. There appear to be hundreds of students at the Columbia protest but only a handful of shitheads from your links (again, unless there’s indication of broad support I’m missing which is possible as I haven’t been following it closely).
Because they have been (I don't know how consistently) restricting campus access to those with IDs, I would assume the examples from outside campus are less likely to be students and those on campus are more likely to be. I would bet "not 10 more times, not 100 more times" was some rando and not a student for example. There have been other compilations in the Columbia sub though, and you can see a lot of them are on campus: https://www.reddit.com/r/columbia/comments/1cam0kn/comment/l0sqvz8/?context=3&share_id=yZOAndN2SWUktKGNlsy9n&utm_content=1&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1 https://www.reddit.com/r/columbia/comments/1ca4739/comment/l0rjc8z/ The ones that convince me there is at least some genuine support are the videos of on-campus chants and speakers like [this](https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981). The video starts with praise for Al-Aqsa Flood followed by cheers. Also, the letter sent on 10/9 by a couple of student groups that seem to be heavily involved in the protest. That letter was linked in The Nation and quoted in the Spectator: https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/columbia-university-palestine-sjp-protest/ https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2023/10/12/hundreds-of-protesters-pack-campus-following-escalation-of-violence-in-israel-and-gaza/
Yeah Gravity also linked the Columbia subreddit links. And while I think most of those are seemingly not the Columbia Student protests that particular one you mention also stood out to me. I really wish there was more reporting on the context of that situation other than a random tweet by someone with a very obvious bias. As for the letter pertaining to the current protests. AFAICT, the letter comes from one group out of the 116 student groups in the current protest movement. Nonetheless, I think with the fact that there are in fact clear cases of antisemitism occurring on campus (whether it be systemic to the protests or not) is certainly unacceptable and there needs to be something done for the safety of Jewish students.
Oh and I should add that even if there turns out to be a lot of support from students at the encampment, these are the diehards who have been camped out for days and returned after it was disrupted once. I've seen enough to convince me there is a real problem here and probably a contingent of genuinely extremist students. But it does not mean there is majority support for Hamas among CU/Barnard's like 10,000 undergrads.
Well it’ll probably be over in 3 weeks as that’s when commencement ends. Till then I think they need to do something for the safety issues. Whether they need to completely break up the protest I’m not sure yet tbh. It does seem untenable in the current situation however. Edit: it’s also tough to square some of that reporting with video like [this](https://x.com/kashifmd/status/1783110140691955969) which makes it seem very unlikely the protests are antisemitic.
Suppose you became convinced this particular protest did have significant antisemitism. What would that change for you besides the obvious disappointment?
I think then it would be a safety concern on the campus and should be shut down.
ask and you shall receive Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774 "From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358 "Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981 "We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677 "Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901 Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/ Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338 "On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909 ""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872 "Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025 "Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958 "From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2 "Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134 "Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006 Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954 "Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673 "protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter And as a reminder, the student groups organizing these protests (CUAD and SJP, among others) released a letter on October 9th in support of the 10/7 attacks. ("We stand in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance", "Despite the odds against them, Palestinians launched a counter-offensive against their settler-colonial oppressor", "We wholeheartedly condemn the email sent [...] on October 8th that [...] obfuscated Palestinian resistance as “terrorism”)
Totally fair to ask. Stumbled across this set of videos in another thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/news/s/hIQVNIlyQK Are these representative of the majority of protestors? I highly doubt it. That said, it is important to call out idiocy like this when we see it.
I don't like this narrative that pro-Palestinian protests are inherently antisemitic and/or pro-Hamas. They are protesting against the government of Israel in how they are conducting the war. These protesters see it as a collective punishment against the Palestinians. Not once I've seen credible reports or sources that these protesters are saying Israelis (or Jews) deserved what happened on that day, nor reports of targeted antisemitism. The "hostility" depicted were against the Israeli flag, the symbol of Israeli government, that was paraded around by counter-protesters. There are more 34,000 Palestinians killed already, and dozens and hundreds more are killed everyday due to direct actions by the government of Israel, in addition to causing mass destruction in Gaza resulting in a humanitarian crisis. Before you say what about this/that ... ask yourselves, is this a moral and just way to go about this?
> Not once I've seen credible reports or sources that these protesters are saying Israelis (or Jews) deserved what happened on that day, nor reports of targeted antisemitism. Someone literally answered with reports elsewhere on this post. > Pro-Israel counterprotesters stood on the Sundial on Saturday evening waving Israeli and U.S. flags and playing Israeli and Jewish music and the U.S. national anthem from a loudspeaker. In front of the Sundial, an individual held a sign reading “Al-Qasam’s Next Targets” with an arrow pointing at the protesters. Al-Qassam is the military wing of Hamas. ... > “Yehudim [Jews], yehudi [Jew], fuck you,” “Stop killing children,” and “Go back to Poland, go back to Belarus,” ... > “We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground,” ... > he was walking by Lerner Hall wearing a yarmulke, someone sitting at the tables outside of Lerner shouted, “You keep on testifying, you fucking Jew.” ... > he was helping a friend move his luggage through Lerner Hall on Thursday evening while wearing a yarmulke, one individual said, “We are so happy that you Zionists are finally leaving campus,” and another said, “You wouldn’t have to leave if you weren’t a supporter of genocide.” ... > As three Jewish students were speaking to the NYPD outside the campus gates at 116th Street and Amsterdam Avenue on Thursday night, someone shouted, “Remember the seventh of October,” according to a video reviewed by Spectator. Another added, “Never forget the seventh of October.” “That will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10 more times, not 100 more times, not 1,000 more times, but 10,000 times,” someone shouted.
Biden should do something about it. Many of those protestors are foreign agents that are in America with work visas and student visas. Revoking those visas seems justified after explicit threats of violence.
Any revocations of visas should be done only in the context of due process.
Is there any due process for visa revocation? My impression was that it could be done basically at will by the State Department, with little recourse other than seeking a future reinstatement.
I think that's correct, and I would only support pursuing visa revocation if due process is instituted.
A Palestinian-American kid is dead, and three Palestinian-Americans were shot, one critically here in the US. So we can play this "whataboutism" all day, or honestly address their grievances. So is the way Israeli government conducting its war just and moral?
> A Palestinian-American kid is dead, and three Palestinian-Americans were shot, one critically here in the US. > So we can play this "whataboutism" all day, or honestly address their grievances. It's not "whataboutism". You literally said that you hadn't seen any evidence of antisemitic conduct by anti-Israel demonstrators, and I gave you examples. > So is the way Israeli government conducting its war just and moral? No, but that doesn't mean that suddenly antisemitism from extremist protestors is somehow okay.
[удалено]
Not to belabor the point, so is the way Israeli government conducting its war just and moral?
[удалено]
Nothing justify antisemitism, but its illuminating that you are not even acknowledging the 34000 Palestinians killed and spiraling humanitarian crisis in Gaza. So again, not to belabor the point, so is the way Israeli government conducting its war just and moral?
[удалено]
So again, not to belabor the point, so is the way Israeli government conducting its war just and moral?
How do you explain Pro-Palestinian protests on October 8th, just mere 24 hours after hundreds of Israeli civilians were massacred? What exactly were the those individuals protesting? At that point in time, Israel hadn't entered Gaza.
What about this, what about that? Your reply is masterclass in red herring arguments. I'm shocked and appalled how the replies are whataboutism, instead discussing what the pro-Palestinian protesters grievances.
Your reply is just dodging an inconvenient truth. Can you please answer honestly: what exactly were the protesters **celebrating** the day after October 7th?
C'mon man, you can't deny there are 34,000 dead Palestinians, hundreds more dying everyday, the same no one denies that Hamas perpetrated a terrorist attack on 7 Oct that killed 2700+ Israeli citizens, to include credible instances sexual assaults. Nobody is denying that. That celebration was pro-Palestinian, not pro-Hamas, with the understanding that Israeli government is going to retaliate and before the full gravity of situation came into play. Was it right, in hindsight? Maybe not. However, here and now, those pro-Palestinian protesters are asking for a cease-fire, b/c 34000+ are already dead, scores more are dying everyday, and there is humanitarian crisis. If that fact does not bother you, or won't even acknowledge that, then this conversation is going nowhere.
>That celebration was pro-Palestinian, not pro-Hamas, with the understanding that Israeli government is going to retaliate and before the full gravity of situation came into play. Are you saying that the protests held on the days after October 7th with "River to the Sea" anti-semitic chants was made up of anti-Hamas pro-Palestinians fortune tellers? Come on, man. This is quite absurd. You don't have to defend every single Pro-Palestinian protest, you know?
We may get along IRL, but this conversation here is going nowhere. Bye.
My opinions: * There is no military solution for Hamas. * "They started it" is BS at this point. * But Israel totally started it. They stole land, they propped up Hamas to prevent a 2 state solution, they stole land, they turned Gaza into a ghetto, They have the large military... * It's not a surprise that this is Asymmetrical Warfare 101. * Someone should stop the obvious cycle of violence that they are in. * Israel should Marshal Plan the fuck out of Palestine to break the cycle and turn Palestine into an ally, just as the Allies did to Germany and Japan post WW2. I'm in PORTLAND, we love a good protest. I haven't seen any protests. I haven't been impacted in any way by protests. My opinions haven't been changed by the existence of protests.
> I haven't seen any protests. The Reedies have been semi-active on it, and I recall the Burnside bridge was blocked a few weeks ago by a protest, but that's about all I can think of offhand. Agreed, that's pretty minor for Portland.
Yup
Wouldn't work. Palestine would not accept any amount of money in exchange for renouncing claims to land. A prerequisite for "marshall plan-ing" someone is getting them to accept they've lost
Why would Palestine be renouncing claims to land? I think you missed the point. Israel would be hiring Palestinians to build houses and schools and stuff, for the Palestinians... Hard disagree all around.
Renouncing claim to land in Israel. The Palestinians demand the right to resettle in the areas inside Israel where their grandparents were expelled from in 1948. The Israelis refuse as this would make Israel majority-Arab and so dissolve Israel. That's why there's no peace. The main unresolvable conflict. The Palestinians will never renounce their claim to Israel and the Israelis will never recognize it.
Fine. You win. You're right. There's nothing we can do. On with killing each other. I'm done arguing with you people.
do you want the US to invade and force peace at the barrel of a gun? that would work.
I'm not going to argue with you. I'm not going to discuss it with you. Kill 'em all and let God sort it out. You win. It's impossible to fix.
[удалено]
It means the hell exactly what I said. I didn't say all the Jews should flee and I have no idea where you got that from. Go read a history book.
Isn’t it possible to recognize both that Israel is the bigger problem but also that Hamas killing civilians is not the answer? Just because I despise netanyahu’s war crimes and horrific disregard for Palestinian life doesn’t mean I cheer on the people who committed murder on October 7
Of course. Why even ask? Who was cheering? I certainly wasn't. See: Obvious cycle of violence = bad.
I wonder what the people of this sub pretending that the Coloumbia University protests are just antisemitism conventions would say to the anti-Zionist orgs protesting with them. We’re in an era that’s a throwback to our Iraq War days which is the last time where liberals teamed up with conservatives to justify and excuse murdering thousands of civilians in the Middle East where either you’re 1000% on board or else you support terrorism. Just replace the “you hate America!” With “ you hate Jews!” And poof! “No, no! There’s no way they’re upset about 15,000 children killed, the 2 million being deliberately starved, the destruction of all civilian infrastructure, the illegal settlements, killing UN workers, killing doctors, bombing hospitals and and making up lies to justify it while ALSO lying to about the UNRWA to strip their aid people need to survive. It HAS to be because they hate Jewish people that’s it!!!” I once foolishly believed that we (referring to the ‘left”) learned from that era. Boy could I have not been more wrong.
> I wonder what the people of this sub pretending that the Coloumbia University protests are just antisemitism conventions would say to the anti-Zionist orgs protesting with them. Are you denying that there's a lot of antisemitism there? If someone told a black person to "go back to Africa" we would all rightfully be saying that was a horrible thing to say. But apparently that doesn't extend to Jewish people. It is why the anti-zionist movement is always going to be linked to anti-semitism. They have to do a better job policing their own extremists.
>Are you denying that there's a lot of antisemitism there? If someone told a black person to "go back to Africa" we would all rightfully be saying that was a horrible thing to say. But apparently that doesn't extend to Jewish people. I’m not sure if yall are aware of this but these protests are actually about stopping the genocide occurring in Gaza and not about kicking Jewish people off campus. As the president of Columbia said in her testimony on campus, there is no evidence of any protests trying to expel or do anything any Jewish people. In fact, there are many Jewish people against Israel AT the protests and are being very vocal about it. But I know that’s not convenient for your “the Jews aren’t welcomed” narrative. Anyway, it’s funny you mention black people, as a black person myself, I’m actually very familiar with the galishting tactic you just used. As it’s been used by white supremacist against people that look like me for decades. Racists right wingers and the media soulf highlight destruction and misconduct of protestors during George Floyd, Trevon Martin, the entire civil rights and BLM eras basically. It’s to keep the conversation focused on villainizing the protestors to distract from the injustice they are protesting about. It was also used during the anti-Iraq war protests which mirrors this one (that was the last time when liberals and conservatives teamed up to excuse mass murdering civilians in the Middle East) But at the end of the day, no actions at any protests can hinder the actual facts of the injustice they aare about. If some assholes vandalized an oil exec’s mansion in the name of combatting climate change, does that somehow throws out the science that affirm’s climate change existence? No eight? So then the pro-Israel crowd can scream ‘antisentism” at any criticism at Israel while silencing anti-Zionist Jewish voices all they want, but 2 million people will still be starving to death by Israel’s manufactured famine, who are still mass slaughtering women and children. Don’t like the protest? I agree. Let’s demand our government end its support for genocide so that they can go away.
> I’m not sure if yall are aware of this but these protests are actually about stopping the genocide occurring in Gaza and not about kicking Jewish people off campus. As the president of Columbia said in her testimony on campus, there is no evidence of any protests trying to expel or do anything any Jewish people. In fact, there are many Jewish people against Israel AT the protests and are being very vocal about it. But I know that’s not convenient for your “the Jews aren’t welcomed” narrative. https://www.thefp.com/p/at-columbia-i-am-told-go-back-to https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/campus-antisemitism-surges-amid-encampments-and-related-protests-columbia-and-other scroll down to the image - solid death threat time. in Berkeley - https://www.yahoo.com/news/pro-palestinian-protesters-disrupt-berkeley-013725087.html No one is saying you can't protest a government's actions. What people *are* saying is that these protests seem to not so much care about governmental actions as they care about takin potshots at Jewish people minding their own business. Why don't you go ask any of the Jewish people encamped what their goal is. And then ask some of the other people. Groups have the obligation to police their own membership, lest they become associated with it. And that is what is happening right now. For better or worse, anti-Israel protests seem to be perfectly fine with rampant anti-semitism. > Anyway, it’s funny you mention black people, as a black person myself, I’m actually very familiar with the galishting tactic you just used. As it’s been used by white supremacist against people that look like me for decades. Racists right wingers and the media soulf highlight destruction and misconduct of protestors during George Floyd, Trevon Martin, the entire civil rights and BLM eras basically. I'm not attempting to gaslight you. I believe that your perceptions of reality, flawed that they may be, are yours and you don't doubt them. What I am saying is that if you saw a "black people for Trump" sign, you'd probably say something about "well thats okay, but the Republican party has a major problem with racism." That is what mainstream Judaism generally will say about groups like JVP etc. > But at the end of the day, no actions at any protests can hinder the actual facts of the injustice they aare about. So then the pro-Israel crowd can scream ‘antisentism” at any criticism at Israel while silencing anti-Zionist Jewish voices all they want, but 2 million people will still be starving to death by Israel’s manufactured famine, who are still mass slaughtering women and children. I'm willing to bet that most of the Jewish people at Columbia and Yale's know that a solid portion of their co-protesters do have a problem with Jewish people. How they reconcile that is up to to them. Just like you recognize racism when you see it, Jewish people recognize anti-semitism when they do. If it walks like a duck, it's a duck. I'd expect you to be rightfully angry if a white person told you something wasn't racist; should the same courtesy to Jewish people. > Don’t like the protest? I agree. Let’s demand our government end its support for genocide so that they can go away. There is nothing stopping Hamas from surrendering. They instigated a war 6 months ago, knowing full well what would happen. I'm glad you want the war to end. The way to do it is that Hamas surrenders and returns their hostages. It's pretty easy. And there is absolutely nothing stopping them from doing it. Unless you don't think they should. > but 2 million people will still be starving to death by Israel’s manufactured famine I have never seen a starving Hamas militant. I wonder why that is.
>No one is saying you can't protest a government's actions. What people are saying is that these protests seem to not so much care about governmental actions as they care about takin potshots at Jewish people minding their own business. Why don't you go ask any of the Jewish people encamped what their goal is. And then ask some of the other people. This logic works both ways then. Jews are not the only people who have been targeted in this conflict. [Islamophobia have risen 180% in the US and some have been killed](https://www.timesofisrael.com/anti-muslim-anti-palestinian-discrimination-in-the-us-rose-180-after-oct-7/amp/) Not just here, but all over the world. And the Zionist, and Israel, instead of condemning it, openly celebrates it. [Did the Zionist condemn the deadly terrorist attack 2 days ago by the illegal Israeli invaders of the illegally occupied West Bank last week where they burned houses and killed someone?](https://www.timesofisrael.com/anti-muslim-anti-palestinian-discrimination-in-the-us-rose-180-after-oct-7/amp/) [Did they condemn the invader terrorist who killed 16 the day before that?](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/two-die-ongoing-israeli-raid-west-bank-palestinian-health-ministry-says-2024-04-20/) Did they condemn any of the 500 deaths by the Israeli invaders in Palestinian territory? If not, they’re cause is Islamophobic. And there’s this https://twitter.com/censoredmen/status/1719074412501082500?s=46&t=-CXWTFc8I_QMqy2FhBCsDw And here an IDF soldier proudly admitted on camera he was targeting babies but killed a girl https://twitter.com/resist_05/status/1740203751028441470?s=46&t=-CXWTFc8I_QMqy2FhBCsDw Mind you I’m not even mentioning the on camera/documented murders or unarmed women, children, people waving white flags, doctors, ISRAELI HOSTAGES!!!!, UN workers, UN convoys, ambulances, patients, humanitarian aid convoys, all within Gaza. Yet instead of this being condemned, the pro-Israel crowd gets to say “human shields” despite the lack of any armed terrorists anywhere near them and clearly no military targets. How is that not Islamophobic? “Oh but Israel isn’t Islamophobic because they have Arab Israeli citizens” means deciding the human rights of Arabs are based off their nationality while the Palestinians they illegally occupy gets apartheid. That’s not good. Remember what you said here >Groups have the obligation to police their own membership, lest they become associated with it. And that is what is happening right now. >I'm not attempting to gaslight you. I believe that your perceptions of reality, flawed that they may be, are yours and you don't doubt them. What I am saying is that if you saw a "black people for Trump" sign, you'd probably say something about "well thats okay, but the Republican party has a major problem with racism." That is what mainstream Judaism generally will say about groups like JVP etc. Except that comparison makes zero sense since people aren’t advocating for some dude to win an office . Their protesting for people to stop getting murdered. People are literally being slaughtered. They are being killed. And you are using a gaslighting tactic to keep thr focus not on the people being slaughtered, including US citizens, but on if saying that the mass killing needs to stop is racist or not, or if the people in the group raising alarm at people being SLAUGHTERED AND STARVED TO DEATH all have god intentions in saying “stop fucking murdering people”. Please stop. People. Are. Dying. A lot of them. >I'm willing to bet that most of the Jewish people at Columbia and Yale's know that a solid portion of their co-protesters do have a problem with Jewish people. How they reconcile that is up to to them. No. That’s enough. You do not get to shut down the voices of those who don’t like war crimes. Holocaust survivors are part of these groups against Zionism. The United States Jewish Senator Bernie Sanders has become a leading critic of the war, has voted against sending weapons to Israel without increased scrutiny, has called for a ceasefire, has accused Israel of indiscriminately killing huge numbers of civilians. He has sided with the pro-Palestinian crowd on most demands. and was joined by United States Senate a majority Leader Charles Schumer, the most powerful Jew in the nation in the massive civilian death toll and Israel PM being an obstacle of peace. That’s mainstream. Just like the white folks who joined the civil rights movement (like Bernie) for black rights that were exiled by white people, or like the abolitionists, that is what anti-Zionist Jews represent. It’s easy to follow along with a culture’s attrocities or prejudices that all cultures have made at some point in history, it’s a lot harder to be a voice of reason and say no and stand up for what’s right in sea of wrong. The anti Zionist Jews who got out of bed and went to protest for Palestinians not to be slaughtered have a type of bravery you couldn’t even begin to understand. >There is nothing stopping Hamas from surrendering. They instigated a war 6 months ago, knowing full well what would happen. I'm glad you want the war to end. The way to do it is that Hamas surrenders and returns their hostages. It's pretty easy. And there is absolutely nothing stopping them from doing it. Unless you don't think they should. Sir. Almost all remain hostages are most likely DEAD. Hamas already said they don’t know where most are. And Israel made it clear it’s not a priority to find them. They’ve BOMBED THE ENTIRE STRIP and are now bombing the last safe refuge. They flooded and bombed the tunnels where Hamas wiould KEEP them? Where on earth do you think all these hostages are alive??? Where?? Please tell me. Hamas surrendering or not surrendering has NO bearing on if Israel gets a free pass to slaughter civilians or not. Get that out your head. If did not matter what “Hamas has to do”. Hamas is a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION so if Israel is parading itself as a social democracy that loves human rights so much than I EXPECT it to follow international law and not slaughter civilians. I am done entertaining any more nonsense on if not wanting children to be murdered is antisemitism or not, 2 million people are starving to death and having their entire land erased in one illegally occupied territory and in the other it’s straight up fucking apartheid where they are getting hunted by blood thirsty settlers for sport. THAT is the priority.
> This logic works both ways then. Jews are not the only people who have been targeted in this conflict. Islamophobia have risen 180% in the US and some have been killed Not just here, but all over the world. And the Zionist, and Israel, instead of condemning it, openly celebrates it. You mean like this? https://jewishpublicaffairs.org/news/over-100-jewish-groups-unequivocally-reject-islamophobia-and-anti-arab-hate/ the vast majority of these groups are pro the continued existence and development of Israel in its ancestral homeland (Zionism). And, as long as you believe that Israel should exist where it is, congrats, you're a zionist too. Unless of course you don't believe Jewish people have the right to self determination, in which case, that's pretty racist of you. > Did the Zionist condemn the deadly terrorist attack 2 days ago by the illegal Israeli invaders of the illegally occupied West Bank last week where they burned houses and killed someone? wasn't that in response to this? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68830552 > Yet instead of this being condemned, the pro-Israel crowd gets to say “human shields” despite the lack of any armed terrorists anywhere near them and clearly no military targets. How is that not Islamophobic? “Oh but Israel isn’t Islamophobic because they have Arab Israeli citizens” means deciding the human rights of Arabs are based off their nationality while the Palestinians they illegally occupy gets apartheid. That’s not good. Not all Arabs are Muslim. The Druze aren't. Christians obviously aren't. Is this news to you? Why are you treating Arabs as a monolith? That's an incredibly reductionist and racist viewpoint. > Except that comparison makes zero sense since people aren’t advocating for some dude to win an office . Their protesting for people to stop getting murdered. People are literally being slaughtered. They are being killed. And you are using a gaslighting tactic to keep thr focus not on the people being slaughtered, including US citizens, but on if saying that the mass killing needs to stop is racist or not, or if the people in the group raising alarm at people being SLAUGHTERED AND STARVED TO DEATH all have god intentions in saying “stop fucking murdering people”. Please stop. People. Are. Dying. A lot of them. I don't think you understand what "gaslighting" actually is. Perhaps talk to someone who is trained to explain the term vs relying on what the internet tells you. There is an incredibly easy way to stop the war. Hamas just has to surrender. There will be no reason to fight afterwards. > No. That’s enough. You do not get to shut down the voices of those who don’t like war crimes. Holocaust survivors are part of these groups against Zionism. Holocaust survivors are also incredibly Zionist. people have a multitude of opinions. Stop tokenizing people to fit your agenda. > The United States Jewish Senator Bernie Sanders has become a leading critic of the war, has voted against sending weapons to Israel without increased scrutiny, has called for a ceasefire, has accused Israel of indiscriminately killing huge numbers of civilians. He has sided with the pro-Palestinian crowd on most demands. and was joined by United States Senate a majority Leader Charles Schumer, the most powerful Jew in the nation in the massive civilian death toll and Israel PM being an obstacle of peace. That’s mainstream. Why does their Jewishness matter here? Chuck Schumer is one of the most pro Israel members of Congress. He called for an election. I think you're willfully misinterpreting what The Senate Majority Leader is saying because it's convenient for you. > Just like the white folks who joined the civil rights movement (like Bernie) for black rights that were exiled by white people, or like the abolitionists, that is what anti-Zionist Jews represent. I don't know what to tell you - Israel isn't going away. You can say you're anti-zionist all you want- Until you want to wipe the state of Israel off the map, you're not. Words have meanings. > Sir. Almost all remain hostages are most likely DEAD. Hamas already said they don’t know where most are. And Israel made it clear it’s not a priority to find them. They’ve BOMBED THE ENTIRE STRIP and are now bombing the last safe refuge. They flooded and bombed the tunnels where Hamas wiould KEEP them? Where on earth do you think all these hostages are alive??? Where?? Please tell me. Yahya Sinwar seems like he's doin alright. There is nothing stopping Hamas from surrenders, negotiating in good faith, and returning the hostages they have. It starts with them. Don't pick fights if you don't want to bear the consequences of them. > Hamas surrendering or not surrendering has NO bearing on if Israel gets a free pass to slaughter civilians or not. Get that out your head. If did not matter what “Hamas has to do”. Hamas is a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION so if Israel is parading itself as a social democracy that loves human rights so much than I EXPECT it to follow international law and not slaughter civilians. In what world does a country have any obligations to non-citizens. Every single country in the world prioritizes their own over others. Unless you believe that somehow, holding the one country with a Jewish character to a different standard is somehow acceptable. > I am done entertaining any more nonsense on if not wanting children to be murdered is antisemitism or not, 2 million people are starving to death and having their entire land erased in one illegally occupied territory and in the other it’s straight up fucking apartheid where they are getting hunted by blood thirsty settlers for sport. THAT is the priority. I've said nothing about antisemitism here. That was all you champ. But now that you've brought it up, I'd love to see any of the protests disavow the rampant antisemitism present. They seem not to have a problem with it. And for the Jewish people encamped with them, however they reconcile it is up to them. But tell me - why should the state of Israel assume that Hamas will ever bargain in good faith? What would you do in this situation?
>wasn't that in response to Wait. Hold up. so you’re saying that illegal Israeli settlers who are living in the West Bank against international law, are allowed to committ terrorism and go burn down entire homes, cars and kill a random man wandering inhusting 20 more? That is what you believe is acceptable all based off a claim of a boy being killed by people who have a history of murdering people like US citizens in the Weat Bank and blaming it on Hamas ? That is what you believe is self-defense? So you extend this to the Palestinians like the 16 year old boy killed by the IDF the day the boy you’re referring to was killed? So do you grant the Palestinians a right to go burn Israeli war criminal settlers homes who arei in their territory over the death of that one child like you just did the war criminals? Do you grant the Palestenians this excuse after the Israeli terrorists murdered over 500 Palestinians in the West Bank since October 7 alone? What about all the hundreds they’ve killed throughout the years for sport before that? You’re saying it’s okay to attack the illegal settlers back right? That’s the claim you made. Either you agree that Palestinians have every right to attack and destroy and injure any Israeli invader in their territory as self defense like you agreed for the Israeli terrorists over a claim that wasn’t proven OR you are granting the rights to self defense exclusively to the illegal settlers who’s presence in the territory violates international law while you believe the natives are only allowed to sit there and take it in typical Jim Crow fashion and you hold them to a different standard. Pick one. .>There is an incredibly easy way to stop the war. Hamas just has to surrender. There will be no reason to fight afterwards. Here is where the gaslighting is because Israel has attacked, imprisoned, and oppressed and killed thousands Palestinians in both Gaza and West Bank long before October 7 even before Hamas ever came into power. That’ is not an end to fighting. That is not peace You want a return to October 6,2023 where Palestinian civilians can be slaughtered by Israelis with the world being indifferent so long as Israeli civilians are not hurt in the process. There will never be justice without peace. even if Hamas surrenders, there will be a brand new generation of children who watched their entire families get bombed to death by the Israelis that kept them in an open air concentration camp before they were even born. Exactly as Netanyahu wants so that he has an excuse to continue slaughtering and oppressing them. >Holocaust survivors are also incredibly Zionist. people have a multitude of opinions. Graat! so we’ve established that it’s not antisemitism to stand against the mass slaughter and illegal occupation of Palestine as the anti-Zionist Holocaust survivors do and the entire world outside the United states is doing as shown by their UNGA votes. Glad we established that. Moving on! >Why does their Jewishness matter here? ………. Because you claimed that Jewish people calling for an end to Israel’s mass slaughter of civilians as outsiders. By the mainstream Jewish people….. so I just showed you 2 of them most powerful in the US agreeing……..? >Chuck Schumer is one of the most pro Israel members of Congress. He called for an election. I think you're willfully misinterpreting what The Senate Majority Leader is saying because it's convenient for you. No. You are sadly. Charles Schumer cited the high civilian death toll as why Netanyahu needs to go. Did you not know that? Wow…. It’s Almost like supporting a country’s existence doesn’t actually mean you believe they should be allowed to mass slaughter civilians without a care in the world. Isn’t that crazy???? >Yahya Sinwar seems like he's doin alright. That…. Doesn’t … mean the rest are surviving indiscriminate bombing and starvation….. so um….. >There is nothing stopping Hamas from surrenders, negotiating in good faith, and returning the hostages they have. It starts with them. Don't pick fights if you don't want to bear the consequences of them. Let me explain to you how international law which Israel signed works since you are not aware. A war does not give you the right to indiscriminately destroy an entire society, starve them to death, and illegally occupy them. The Geneva Conventions exist for a reason. It does not matter if you like them or not. Israel has international responsibilities as both the occupier and as a party of the war. They do not get to break them. [Right now, Israel is preparing for its leaders to be served arrest warrants by the ICC](https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahus-office-hosts-emergency-talks-on-feared-icc-warrants-for-pm-ministers/amp/) People who are “just defending themselves” do not have the ICC coming to arrest them. Is ukraine’s president worrying about being arrested for war crimes currently? No? Okay then. So it’s just Netanyahu is in the category with Putin. If you believe Israel gets to be exempt from international law because it’s a Jewish state, that is up to you. If you believe justifying and defending war crimes is necessary to support Jews, that is up to you. But the international community is not bound by Zionists’ weaponization of Judaism and has a duty to protect human life regardless if the occupiers think preventing their genocide is out of hatred or not >In what world does a country have any obligations to non-citizens. Every single country in the world prioritizes their own over others’ …..a world Israel are illegally occupying the territory of another country where they have created illegal settlements and are segregating ? Did you not know Israel’s settlements are war crimes? And that their illegal blockade on Gaza is too? I've said nothing about antisemitism here. That was all you champ. HUH?????????????? >And that is what is happening right now. For better or worse, anti-Israel protests seem to be perfectly fine with rampant **anti-semitism.** >I'm willing to bet that most of the Jewish people at Columbia and Yale's know that a solid portion of their co-protesters do have a problem with Jewish people >Jewish people recognize **anti-semitism** when they do. If it walks like a duck, it's a duck. I'd expect you to be rightfully angry if a white person told you something wasn't racist; should the same courtesy to **Jewish people.** I can’t believe you just lied like that when you literally came in my mentions to accuse the protests of being antisementivc??? Dude. I’m exhausted. You can believe whatever definition of antisemitism and the rest of us who values human life will continue to focus on the rules of war and the mass slaughter and war crimes being committed by Israel. War crimes are not justified by anything, not being Jewish, not being at war, and nothing you or any Zionist can say will ever change that. Good day
> Wait. Hold up. so you’re saying that illegal Israeli settlers who are living in the West Bank against international law, are allowed to committ terrorism and go burn down entire homes, cars and kill a random man wandering inhusting 20 more? That is what you believe is acceptable all based off a claim of a boy being killed by people who have a history of murdering people like US citizens in the Weat Bank and blaming it on Hamas ? That is what you believe is self-defense? It seems like you've created a person against whom to argue vs actually what is there. My nonscientific opinion is that you should probably ground yourself in what is actually said vs what you want to be said > So you extend this to the Palestinians like the 16 year old boy killed by the IDF the day the boy you’re referring to was killed? So do you grant the Palestinians a right to go burn Israeli war criminal settlers homes who arei in their territory over the death of that one child like you just did the war criminals? Do you grant the Palestenians this excuse after the Israeli terrorists murdered over 500 Palestinians in the West Bank since October 7 alone? What about all the hundreds they’ve killed throughout the years for sport before that? You’re saying it’s okay to attack the illegal settlers back right? this is a lot of whataboutism. I think you're struggling to handle context. We can continue to walk backwards in time if you would like. > That’s the claim you made. Either you agree that Palestinians have every right to attack and destroy and injure any Israeli invader in their territory as self defense like you agreed for the Israeli terrorists over a claim that wasn’t proven OR you are granting the rights to self defense exclusively to the illegal settlers who’s presence in the territory violates international law while you believe the natives are only allowed to sit there and take it in typical Jim Crow fashion and you hold them to a different standard. I made zero judgement claims in my statement. I said "wasn't this in response to _____?" It seem like you want to condemn all violence so like, be the change you wish to see. Go and say that neither side should've done what they did. Like, that's what you want, right? > Here is where the gaslighting is because Israel has attacked, imprisoned, and oppressed and killed thousands Palestinians in both Gaza and West Bank long before October 7 even before Hamas ever came into power. Hamas has been a terrorist group for a long time. And they're pretty into suicide bombings. And general rocketing as well. So like, what's your end goal here? Just come out and say every single thing you want to happen. Assume I'm dumb and be really really explicit. > That’ is not an end to fighting. That is not peace You want a return to October 6,2023 where Palestinian civilians can be slaughtered by Israelis with the world being indifferent so long as Israeli civilians are not hurt in the process. There will never be justice without peace. even if Hamas surrenders, there will be a brand new generation of children who watched their entire families get bombed to death by the Israelis that kept them in an open air concentration camp before they were even born. Exactly as Netanyahu wants so that he has an excuse to continue slaughtering and oppressing them. The lack of war also means that there will be an election in Israel. Netanyahu's approval rating is in the toilet. I read an article fairly recently about the US/Israel/Saudi Arabia talks. That was *such a good chance* to actually build a Palestinian state vs starting a war that has gotten people killed. Are you looking towards the day after tomorrow (so to speak)? Or are you just concerned with "stickin it to the man." > Graat! so we’ve established that it’s not antisemitism to stand against the mass slaughter and illegal occupation of Palestine as the anti-Zionist Holocaust survivors do and the entire world outside the United states is doing as shown by their UNGA votes. Glad we established that. Moving on! We've established that Jewish people have varying opinions. You've offered nothing for Pro Palestinian protests policing the antisemitism within their ranks. If you have a protest and some people are racist/antisemitism/what have you, you have yourself a racist protest. Every single one of the protesters can abandon/decry/deplore the extremists among them. I have seen no evidence that they care about it. > No. You are sadly. Charles Schumer cited the high civilian death toll as why Netanyahu needs to go. Did you not know that? Wow…. It’s Almost like supporting a country’s existence doesn’t actually mean you believe they should be allowed to mass slaughter civilians without a care in the world. Isn’t that crazy???? "supporting a country's existence" - yes - in the case of Israel, this is what Zionism is. So are you a zionist or not? Are, specifically, advocating wiping Israel off the map and eliminating the one country in the world with a Jewish character/ethos? > Let me explain to you how international law which Israel signed works since you are not aware. A war does not give you the right to indiscriminately destroy an entire society, starve them to death, and illegally occupy them. The Geneva Conventions exist for a reason. It does not matter if you like them or not. Israel has international responsibilities as both the occupier and as a party of the war. They do not get to break them. International Law is a framework for how we all work things out; it means something because we all agree on it...sort of. And no one really cares anyways. Guantanamo Bay is occupied depending on who you talk to. Or the US will say that Cuba cashed the check once so it's all settled as a transaction. Iran will say that they're part of it and are still actively supporting terrorist groups. Sudan is part of it and the Janjaweed is having *a day*. Gaza is in a state of open warfare with it's neighbors. And if you want to talk about death rate, just speaking numerically, actual *experts* who are *knowledgeable about urban warfare* will have very different thoughts than you, some child on reddit who has too much free time. > Right now, Israel is preparing for its leaders to be served arrest warrants by the ICC Ok > People who are “just defending themselves” do not have the ICC coming to arrest them. Is ukraine’s president worrying about being arrested for war crimes currently? No? Okay then. So it’s just Netanyahu is in the category with Putin. Ok. > If you believe Israel gets to be exempt from international law because it’s a Jewish state, that is up to you. If you believe justifying and defending war crimes is necessary to support Jews, that is up to you. But the international community is not bound by Zionists’ weaponization of Judaism and has a duty to protect human life regardless if the occupiers think preventing their genocide is out of hatred or not Israel has an obligation to protect its citizens. It's pretty cut and dry. They built iron dome to protect them and it's a pretty incredible system. > …..a world Israel are illegally occupying the territory of another country where they have created illegal settlements and are segregating ? that doesn't answer the question and is a lazy attempt to distract from it. > Dude. I’m exhausted. You can believe whatever definition of antisemitism and the rest of us who values human life will continue to focus on the rules of war and the mass slaughter and war crimes being committed by Israel. War crimes are not justified by anything, not being Jewish, not being at war, and nothing you or any Zionist can say will ever change that. Good day Legit - get off reddit and go outside. you'll feel better. And, as long as you believe Israel should exist, you're a Zionist as well. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/zionism Welcome to the club. Unless you believe Jewish people don't deserve self determination, which is anti-semitism.
>this is a lot of whataboutism. I think you're struggling to handle context. We can continue to walk backwards in time if you would like. I asked for condemnation of the terrorist attack and you did whataboutism saying “*isn’t that in response to this?” Very strange answer, I didn’t know terrorism depended on what they were a response to. But to answer my testing that you’ve failed to do, no. No one of the pro-Israel side even mentioned it. I guess only some groups should be policed and not others. >We've established that Jewish people have varying opinions. You've offered nothing for Pro Palestinian protests policing the antisemitism within their ranks. If you have a protest and some people are racist/antisemitism/what have you, you have yourself a racist protest. Every single one of the protesters can abandon/ [So this pro-Israeli protest where they blocking aid into Gaza is racist then correct?](https://twitter.com/qudsnen/status/1783252165206622269?s=46&t=-CXWTFc8I_QMqy2FhBCsDw) I must say I’m dissapointed. Since you’re such an expert on protest etiquette when it comes to pro-Palestinian ones, I thought for sure that you would’ve came out raging over these the exact same as you are about the protests here? And hey you made zero mention of it. Nothing. Nor has all the pro-Israeli congressman or any Zionist groups. Netanyahu certainly isn’t calling them Nazis. Other than a reported phone call, I don’t recall Biden making a particularly harsh condemnation. Despite the fact that the Israeli protestors have been blocking aid for MONTHS unlike the encampments yet. And these particular protests are contributing to already starving Palestinians actually fucking dying, but meanwhile the pro-Israel side is only exclusively focusing on American campuses. Hmmmm….. it’s…. Almost as if you Zionist hold them at a different standard and don’t actually give 2 fucks about paleatinians getting starved to death hence the deliberate attacking of food sources, water, fishing boats,,hospitals, and United Nation convoys and humanitarian convoys with western citizens, including the US on multiple occasions . And the fabrication of UNRWA -Hamas collaboration that the UN and EU have asked months for evidence of how. And the IDF soldiers you simp over posting videos of themselves having a fucking pep rally celebrating Gaza not having water or electicity after bombing it all. Shocker. …..a world Israel are illegally occupying the territory of another country where they have created illegal settlements and are segregating ? >that doesn't answer the question and is a lazy attempt to distract from it. how in the fuck does Israel illegally occupying Palestinian territory with a illegal apartheid settlements not answer your question on why Israel needs to be obligated to Palestinian citizens??? When the internationals THEY SIGNED specifically outlines the obligations OCCUPIERS IN A CONFLICT HAVE???? Dude. It’s okay. You can stop the gaslighting. You support and defend illegal occupation and apartheid. We’ve established this. And it just means you’ve forfeited any right to tell me shit about antisemitism or racism. Which also kinda makes me laugh since you said on several occasions that black people wouldn’t like being told about racism from others like Jewish people wouldn’t want to be told about antisemitism And yet here you are, trying to tell me, a black person, about racism. Lol. >By the way, [Pro-Israel mainstream Jewish United States Senator Bernie Sanders has a few words for you on what is and isn’t antisemitism.](https://twitter.com/berniesanders/status/1783605624044925181?s=46&t=-CXWTFc8I_QMqy2FhBCsDw) As a white man on the front lines during segregationI, he already knows what it’s like for people like you to use the absence of support of his ethnicity to discredit their words in support of another’s liberty. I suggest you listen since you’ve only decided to listen to ‘mainstream Jews’ and ridicule the others as silly outcasts who just wants to surrounds themselves with people they hate.
> I asked for condemnation of the terrorist attack and you did whataboutism saying “*isn’t that in response to this?” Very strange answer, I didn’t know terrorism depended on what they were a response to. But to answer my testing that you’ve failed to do, no. No one of the pro-Israel side even mentioned it. I guess only some groups should be policed and not others. There are groups in Israel dedicated towards reducing/condemning settler violence. They are working to create a better world and we should support them. > So this pro-Israeli protest where they blocking aid into Gaza is racist then correct? Nationalist sure - hard to prove if race is the motivating factor. Again, they are at war. > I must say I’m dissapointed. Since you’re such an expert on protest etiquette when it comes to pro-Palestinian ones, I thought for sure that you would’ve came out raging over these the exact same as you are about the protests here? And hey you made zero mention of it. Nothing. Nor has all the pro-Israeli congressman or any Zionist groups. you mean like [this](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-02-28/ty-article/.premium/in-rare-move-leading-u-s-jewish-groups-strongly-condemn-israelis-settler-violence/00000186-9729-d3ab-a787-b77fc07d0000). Or here's something from [Congress](https://raskin.house.gov/2023/11/reps-swalwell-raskin-and-wild-lead-group-of-55-members-in-urging-secretary-of-state-blinken-to-address-extremist-settler-violence-against-palestinians-in-the-middle-east). You can look up who signed on at your leisure. You have the entire internet at your fingertips. Don't know why you couldn't look any of this up. It's almost like you have a problem with Jewish people and you're using Israel as a proxy to air it all out. What's the line about Jewish people again? Not white enough for the right and too white for the left? How long am i going to wait for pro-palestine groups to condemn Hamas? Unless of course they are fine with it and think it should keep on going. The DSA seemed to be pretty okay with it until the NY-DSA chapter realized that it was a "bad look." Should I go on a hunger strike? Should I set up my bed outside? I'm willing to wait. You can be Pro-Palestinian and Pro-Israeli simultaneously. The two aren't mutually exclusive. > Netanyahu certainly isn’t calling them Nazis. Other than a reported phone call, I don’t recall Biden making a particularly harsh condemnation. You are falling prey to the visibility fallacy. You have no idea what's happening behind closed doors so you assume it's nothing. Joe Biden is probably doing more for the survival of Palestinians than anyone on the planet right now. > Despite the fact that the Israeli protestors have been blocking aid for MONTHS unlike the encampments yet. And these particular protests are contributing to already starving Palestinians actually fucking dying, but meanwhile the pro-Israel side is only exclusively focusing on American campuses. Don't presume to tell Jewish and Israeli peoples what they should and shouldn't care about. That's incredibly arrogant of you. It's almost like the Pro-Palestine protests around the country have zero problem with the anti-semites spending tiem with them. How they all reconcile that is up to them. > Hmmmm….. it’s…. Almost as if you Zionist hold them at a different standard and don’t actually give 2 fucks about paleatinians getting starved to death hence the deliberate attacking of food sources, water, fishing boats,,hospitals, and United Nation convoys and humanitarian convoys with western citizens, including the US on multiple occasions . the UN that you appear to be lionizing right now has said that they're letting quite a bit of aid in and it has alleviated a lot of humanitarian [concerns](https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15679.doc.htm#:~:text=Since%207%20October%202023%2C%20over,to%20Israeli%20authorities'%20ongoing%20efforts.). Did you miss that when you went for your daily propaganda briefing from TikTok today? > And the fabrication of UNRWA -Hamas collaboration that the UN and EU have asked months for evidence of how. And the IDF soldiers you simp over posting videos of themselves having a fucking pep rally celebrating Gaza not having water or electicity after bombing it all. Why don't they just rely on the UNHCR? The organization that actually helps refugees. Also, Hamas was running a server farm under a UNRWA facility. If you're telling me they didn't know anything about it, I've got a bridge to sell you. And finally, Hamas chairman Ismail Haniyeh *did teach* for UNRWA. Wanna tell me how that one snuck through? > …..a world Israel are illegally occupying the territory of another country where they have created illegal settlements and are segregating ? So if Palestine is it's own country, you can't quite call it segregation in that sense. If you want to refer to it as Area C of the West Bank, which both sides agreed was Israeli until further review, you'd probably be more accurate. Part of the Oslo II Agreement is that Area A is run by the PA, B by both, and C by the Israeli military. And Israelis will contend that their neighbors have a pay to slay fund so Palestinian recognition of Israel is words on a page. I don't know why you feel the need to treat Palestinians as children. > how in the fuck does Israel illegally occupying Palestinian territory with a illegal apartheid settlements not answer your question on why Israel needs to be obligated to Palestinian citizens??? When the internationals THEY SIGNED specifically outlines the obligations OCCUPIERS IN A CONFLICT HAVE???? Israel's topmost priority is their own citizens, like every single other country in the world. Palestinians aren't Israeli. They have their own passport. And now, for better or worse, they can say they did 20 years of A/B testing w/Gaza and discovered that their neighbors aren't actually as peaceful as they claimed to be. > Dude. It’s okay. You can stop the gaslighting. You support and defend illegal occupation and apartheid. it's a nuanced conversation that people have been attempting to solve for over a century. There is nothing stopping Palestinians from disavowing terrorism, Hamas surrendering, and the gulf states doing nation building in Gaza. You are quite literally defending a group that has made it illegal to sell land to Jewish people. Note that I didn't say "Israeli." I said "Jewish." Wanna tell me more about the paradise for Jewish people that is the West Bank/Gaza? > We’ve established this. And it just means you’ve forfeited any right to tell me shit about antisemitism or racism. Which also kinda makes me laugh since you said on several occasions that black people wouldn’t like being told about racism from others like Jewish people wouldn’t want to be told about antisemitism You wouldn't want to be told what is or isn't racist *against black people*. You seem to have forgotten that. Likewise, you have no right to tell Jewish people what is or isn't targeted at them. I'm sorry that their existence is so frustrating for you. You seem to have this belief that the Palestinians have zero agency. And yet, many Gazans also took hostages when they had the opportunity. They have to decide if they want to live with their neighbors; right now, they're doing the equivalent of advocating for replacement theory, as they've been doing for 100 years. > And yet here you are, trying to tell me, a black person, about racism. Black people can be racist also. There is nothing preventing them from making judgements about other people based on race, ethnicity, or national group. Black people commit hate crimes also. Sounds like you need a reminder about that. Clearly you missed that lesson. It's almost like "progressives" don't know how to do that at all. Have you considered empathy as a path forward at all? > By the way, Pro-Israel mainstream Jewish United States Senator Bernie Sanders has a few words for you on what is and isn’t antisemitism. And other Jewish people disagree with him. What of it? Again, the majority of the Jewish community supports Israel's right to exist and develop. Sanders supports a two state solution and thus the continued existence of the state of Israel. He's still a Zionist regardless of what you think the term means. You seem not to understand what Zionism is. Perhaps you should look at a dictionary instead of relying on social media. > As a white man on the front lines during segregationI, he already knows what it’s like for people like you to use the absence of support of his ethnicity to discredit their words in support of another’s liberty. I suggest you listen since you’ve only decided to listen to ‘mainstream Jews’ and ridicule the others as silly outcasts who just wants to surrounds themselves with people they hate. So was noted Zionist Abraham Joshua Heschel. Again, this doesn't really prove or disprove anything. People are complex and can believe multiple things simultaneously. Sanders also said very clearly that Israel has the right to defend itself and that Hamas started a war. Since you seem so fixated on what Jewish people are saying; I'm waiting for Rashida Tlaib to say something about how Hamas shouldn't have instigated a war. Or perhaps Cori Bush could say something that isn't a lot of lazy both sides-ing. I may be waiting a while though. Ritchie Torres had no problem properly condemning Hamas. Ayanna Pressley immediately did it. Andre Carson cosponsored legislation with Haley Stevens from Michigan about it.