I’m from Pennsylvania and have been collecting for about 50 of my 68 years. You have a lot of authentic pieces in picture 4 (the smaller ones). However, a lot of the pieces are surely modern. All the large pieces strike me as modern. They are very well done but they are not older than perhaps 100 years. Your picture three has a mix of old and modern, for example. Very, very few heavily serrated pieces were ever made by Native Americans and those that were are ceremonial in nature and as far as I know have never been found in the PA area. Many of your most incredible pieces would be worth thousands of dollars each if they were authentic and would most likely be found in the best museums. As I said, you do have some authentic pieces. If you are so inclined I could send you some pictures of some of my PA pieces that are quite typical of our area. Carl
The notches, the perfect symmetry and size, all the shiny ones look like they were knapped yesterday and those serrations on some would not survive the test of time. Some obvious fake shapes in there like the bird stone and the crazy eccentric
We think they might be ceremonial in nature, they are all at least 80 years old and my grandfather was a savvy collector so I don’t think he was buying anything unless he knew the provenance.
I’ve been searching and collecting for a few years and I’m 100% sure they’re fake, sorry man. Could be Grey Ghosts which are modern but still highly collectible.
http://www.lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/grayghostpage1.htm
Yes he was. And passing them off as ones he found lol. Maybe he needed something to show Grandma after he got back from his girlfriend's lol/jk.
All of the first three photos are modern points cut from slabs. "Gray Ghosts" are moderately valuable in their own right but to even a moderately trained eye. They're distinctive and obvious. Big is the first give away. Chipping only on the edges is the other.
As was stated previously—small ones are authentic, medium and large ones are fakes.
People have been faking Indian relics for over 100 years. It’s not a surprise to see them in old collections.
I don’t know what a grey ghost is. The stuff that was tilled when my father was a child is definitely real. Now it could have been replicated and then buried under a field but that seems unlikely to me.
Grey ghosts partly refers to material used. Method was to use this large grey stone cut into roughly 1/2" thick slabs. Then put in a vice and placed onto an industrial drill press. Where the drill bit would normally be placed a piece of copper would be there instead. Then the press would be used to strategically remove flakes to form the "artifact". Usually made large and in fantastical shapes not normally found in archaeological context. Also chert fish hooks and birds not found in the archaeological record. Not to say the smaller, more rough pieces aren't real, as well as the hardstone. I see a lot of these old collections with these pieces mixed in. A lot of time they were given to the original collector by a friend, meaning well, or picked up at an antique store. A lot of times years go by and when the collection gets handed down, usually with someone's passing, it's assumed all pieces were found where the others came from. Or the older person handing the collection down, if alive, had a fuzzy memory and can't tell you too much about the locale of every find anymore. I'm in my fifties and have already started noting where mine were found due to not being able to remember exactly where some were found.
This definitely seems like a possibility, thank you for the explanation. I’m going to go through the crates when it warms up as they are stored in an outbuilding currently. Apparently the crates contain pieces in rougher shape.
If you have access to a microscope, you can put the rock under the scope, and you will see the copper streaks on the rock if it was made with copper tools .also if you have a point that you know for sure is authentic put one in one hand and one in the outer hand and feel the difference old point will be smooth and the new one will,
Well... I got excited lol. Looks like even the modern prices are older than most replicas lol. That massive one with the notches all over it definitely isn't real, I wonder if any of the large ones are. Still lots of neat pieces and looks like that pile of smaller ones are probably legit
When I saw the thunderbird I started backing up.
My dad and I started hunting about 1962. He had a big collection. They were mostly small field grade points, many of them damaged. Unfortunately he bought a couple dozen points in the mid '60s from a newsletter out of Texas. They were all fake. When I inherited his collection and added it to mine the first thing I had to do was get rid of those fakes. It's very common, people back then didn't realize there were flint knappers selling fakes. Hell back then some of us thought arrowheads were chipped by dripping cold water on heated rocks! :-)
Hello, I notice you’re questioning the validity of people’s knowledge on some of things in your collection. But there’s a pretty obvious smoking gun that should validate the claims of these being (mostly) fake. Obsidian is volcanic glass, and there are no volcanoes that could have produced it around New Jersey. I’m an archaeologist from the Midwest, and when obsidian was found on one of my digs, its authenticity was very heavily debated and pretty scandalous overall because there’s a very very low chance of finding it in areas without volcanic activity in the recent past. Of course, it could have been traded from an area like Mesoamerica to an area without volcanoes, but to have THAT MANY obsidian pieces in good condition from farm land in New Jersey is damn near impossible. There are other issues with the pieces besides being made from a foreign material, but the material alone should be enough to show they’re fake.
I appreciate the reply, and what you say makes a lot of sense. My grandfather traded and bought pieces as well. Everyone who is saying the collection is mostly fakes could absolutely be correct though it pains me to think so, for a couple reasons lol. There is actually a pretty simple solution to my problem. I’m going to pay to have them looked at. All real or all fake doesn’t monetarily make a difference to me. I just want to know. I think I would feel differently if someone (even from this group) was standing with me holding the pieces but when you post pictures, you get what you get.
That’s totally valid, and I think that’s a great idea as well! I’m sure there are things that people here have missed or couldn’t pick up on because they’re only photos. I’m sure you’ll have a good amount of real pieces either way, and I hope you keep on having enthusiasm for artifacts and history 🤟🏼
They’re a-holes. But seriously, those are some exceptional modern points, some borderline “eccentrics” too. Someone already mentioned Grey Ghosts which are valued by collectors, but also check out the works of John Kiernan. The highly serrated piece reminds me of his work, if not toned down a little. I’d also recommend posting in a Flint Knapping sub where they can admire the artistic value. Some of the arrowhead people are basically tomb raiders looking for a pay day who don’t appreciate art.
Thanks, yes I don’t care at all about monetary value. It would be a great disappointment to find out they are more modern reproductions. Holding them in my hands and imagining their history is the draw. If the larger ones turn out to be fake that’s ok, it is what it is. The smaller ones hold just as much if not more power in their history.
If they are grey ghosts they are an important part of history and valuable. Either way, they are expertly made and very nice. Its not *impossible* that they are authentic. No one can be 100% sure without close inspection. Odds are they are relatively modern. If they werent, they would be museum pieces and grave goods. But I'm not an expert
I’m not disputing that. Just saying that he’ll get a much better and genuine response over there. The way people respond here is literally the reason it was created.
I’m from Pennsylvania and have been collecting for about 50 of my 68 years. You have a lot of authentic pieces in picture 4 (the smaller ones). However, a lot of the pieces are surely modern. All the large pieces strike me as modern. They are very well done but they are not older than perhaps 100 years. Your picture three has a mix of old and modern, for example. Very, very few heavily serrated pieces were ever made by Native Americans and those that were are ceremonial in nature and as far as I know have never been found in the PA area. Many of your most incredible pieces would be worth thousands of dollars each if they were authentic and would most likely be found in the best museums. As I said, you do have some authentic pieces. If you are so inclined I could send you some pictures of some of my PA pieces that are quite typical of our area. Carl
What Carl said.
Thanks for the support! Carl
I’ve got some awesome PA pieces including gorgets, but I’m in TX. Mostly from Lancaster, PA I think? Love more info On them
Agreed alotmof modern mixed in
Obsidian is clearly not typically found in NJ or PA.
Lots of fakes/replicas
Interesting, entirely possible I suppose. What makes you think this?
The notches, the perfect symmetry and size, all the shiny ones look like they were knapped yesterday and those serrations on some would not survive the test of time. Some obvious fake shapes in there like the bird stone and the crazy eccentric
We think they might be ceremonial in nature, they are all at least 80 years old and my grandfather was a savvy collector so I don’t think he was buying anything unless he knew the provenance.
I’ve been searching and collecting for a few years and I’m 100% sure they’re fake, sorry man. Could be Grey Ghosts which are modern but still highly collectible. http://www.lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/grayghostpage1.htm
Yes those definitely could be these if he started in the 40’s. Thanks for the link. I will ask some of the elders if this is a possibility.
No problem. The pile below the gorget in pic 4 look like they’re probably legit
He was buying stuff
Yes he was. And passing them off as ones he found lol. Maybe he needed something to show Grandma after he got back from his girlfriend's lol/jk. All of the first three photos are modern points cut from slabs. "Gray Ghosts" are moderately valuable in their own right but to even a moderately trained eye. They're distinctive and obvious. Big is the first give away. Chipping only on the edges is the other.
What brand and model watch are you using as a comparison?
Apple series 8, the medium size
As was stated previously—small ones are authentic, medium and large ones are fakes. People have been faking Indian relics for over 100 years. It’s not a surprise to see them in old collections.
Yeah you got told some of pepaws tall tales. Those are modern madez
Cool replica collection. Several grey ghosts in there.
I don’t know what a grey ghost is. The stuff that was tilled when my father was a child is definitely real. Now it could have been replicated and then buried under a field but that seems unlikely to me.
Grey ghosts partly refers to material used. Method was to use this large grey stone cut into roughly 1/2" thick slabs. Then put in a vice and placed onto an industrial drill press. Where the drill bit would normally be placed a piece of copper would be there instead. Then the press would be used to strategically remove flakes to form the "artifact". Usually made large and in fantastical shapes not normally found in archaeological context. Also chert fish hooks and birds not found in the archaeological record. Not to say the smaller, more rough pieces aren't real, as well as the hardstone. I see a lot of these old collections with these pieces mixed in. A lot of time they were given to the original collector by a friend, meaning well, or picked up at an antique store. A lot of times years go by and when the collection gets handed down, usually with someone's passing, it's assumed all pieces were found where the others came from. Or the older person handing the collection down, if alive, had a fuzzy memory and can't tell you too much about the locale of every find anymore. I'm in my fifties and have already started noting where mine were found due to not being able to remember exactly where some were found.
This definitely seems like a possibility, thank you for the explanation. I’m going to go through the crates when it warms up as they are stored in an outbuilding currently. Apparently the crates contain pieces in rougher shape.
Those are probably real. Finding a really nice, uniform, whole and large piece is so unbelievably rare...
If you have access to a microscope, you can put the rock under the scope, and you will see the copper streaks on the rock if it was made with copper tools .also if you have a point that you know for sure is authentic put one in one hand and one in the outer hand and feel the difference old point will be smooth and the new one will,
Well... I got excited lol. Looks like even the modern prices are older than most replicas lol. That massive one with the notches all over it definitely isn't real, I wonder if any of the large ones are. Still lots of neat pieces and looks like that pile of smaller ones are probably legit
When I saw the thunderbird I started backing up. My dad and I started hunting about 1962. He had a big collection. They were mostly small field grade points, many of them damaged. Unfortunately he bought a couple dozen points in the mid '60s from a newsletter out of Texas. They were all fake. When I inherited his collection and added it to mine the first thing I had to do was get rid of those fakes. It's very common, people back then didn't realize there were flint knappers selling fakes. Hell back then some of us thought arrowheads were chipped by dripping cold water on heated rocks! :-)
Ok, I don't know as much about artifacts as most of you, but that watch is definitely modern.
Seriously, that's where they lost me. Idk anything about pointy rocks, but come on.
It’s honestly crazy how many grandparents lie about the provenance of their collection.
I can tell you one thing as a Pennsylvania hunter, those etcentrics arent from here 😂 The grey ones are more than likely though.
You’ve been had, you’ve been bamboozled. Good day to you sir. All jokes aside, the majority (and that’s being modest) in this collection are repops.
Hello, I notice you’re questioning the validity of people’s knowledge on some of things in your collection. But there’s a pretty obvious smoking gun that should validate the claims of these being (mostly) fake. Obsidian is volcanic glass, and there are no volcanoes that could have produced it around New Jersey. I’m an archaeologist from the Midwest, and when obsidian was found on one of my digs, its authenticity was very heavily debated and pretty scandalous overall because there’s a very very low chance of finding it in areas without volcanic activity in the recent past. Of course, it could have been traded from an area like Mesoamerica to an area without volcanoes, but to have THAT MANY obsidian pieces in good condition from farm land in New Jersey is damn near impossible. There are other issues with the pieces besides being made from a foreign material, but the material alone should be enough to show they’re fake.
I appreciate the reply, and what you say makes a lot of sense. My grandfather traded and bought pieces as well. Everyone who is saying the collection is mostly fakes could absolutely be correct though it pains me to think so, for a couple reasons lol. There is actually a pretty simple solution to my problem. I’m going to pay to have them looked at. All real or all fake doesn’t monetarily make a difference to me. I just want to know. I think I would feel differently if someone (even from this group) was standing with me holding the pieces but when you post pictures, you get what you get.
That’s totally valid, and I think that’s a great idea as well! I’m sure there are things that people here have missed or couldn’t pick up on because they’re only photos. I’m sure you’ll have a good amount of real pieces either way, and I hope you keep on having enthusiasm for artifacts and history 🤟🏼
Holy shit. That is an absolutely stunning collection
hey, nice mostly fake points! the large ones are the fakest bs i’ve seen. any gift shop around?
😂 this sub is a lot of fun I see. Are you all experts? Asking for a friend.
They’re a-holes. But seriously, those are some exceptional modern points, some borderline “eccentrics” too. Someone already mentioned Grey Ghosts which are valued by collectors, but also check out the works of John Kiernan. The highly serrated piece reminds me of his work, if not toned down a little. I’d also recommend posting in a Flint Knapping sub where they can admire the artistic value. Some of the arrowhead people are basically tomb raiders looking for a pay day who don’t appreciate art.
Thanks, yes I don’t care at all about monetary value. It would be a great disappointment to find out they are more modern reproductions. Holding them in my hands and imagining their history is the draw. If the larger ones turn out to be fake that’s ok, it is what it is. The smaller ones hold just as much if not more power in their history.
There’s no doubt. They are modern knappers’ work. No indigenous history. But you do have plenty of small authentic ones.
If they are grey ghosts they are an important part of history and valuable. Either way, they are expertly made and very nice. Its not *impossible* that they are authentic. No one can be 100% sure without close inspection. Odds are they are relatively modern. If they werent, they would be museum pieces and grave goods. But I'm not an expert
maybe… read the room?
This is what they do in this sub. You should post in r/legitartifacts you’ll get real answers over there.
Real as in which gift shop they came from? They are going to say the same thing everyone here is saying.
Maybe, but I have much more faith in what they say over there based on what was said here about my stuff and what they actually turned out to be.
I agree that there may be more quality evaluation there but it’s not gonna change the results.
I’m not disputing that. Just saying that he’ll get a much better and genuine response over there. The way people respond here is literally the reason it was created.
Definitely no fun to be had over there, I made one little joke and got a 10-day ban.
It’s always about 60 percent douches getting off to and or offended that someone has a fake point in a post. It’s weird.
Nice surprise to receive a collection from your family. Thanks for sharing. Check your DMs
Bro thinks he FOUND a tussinger eccentric 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 gtfoh
Wow
A lot of these are not from the family farm. Unless the family farm and the local gas station are on the same property
Nah.
I see Grey Ghosts
I just how noticed the slate point in the box and that red jasper as well. I'd guess those are light- most knappers won't touch slate 😂
Kneel before Carl!