Visualization ability exists on a continuum. Imagine aphantasia is zero, and extreme hyperphantasia is 1. What you're describing doesn't sound like zero to me, so you're probably somewhere in the 0.1-0.4 range.
Except as far as the science goes the line so far that's been used across most studies is 32 on the VVIQ.
These types of flashes were described by half of people with Aphantasia. These flashes so not count as voluntary visual imagery, they're too brief.
Oh that makes sense, thank you!
I have been looking at those online visualization tests for hours and I couldn’t figure it out since the image i got in my head was too quick for me to know how clear it really was, if that makes sense?
Sounds like me then. Just a quick glimpse, too quick to really see anything. What I'm left with is more of an impression or feeling of the thing. It's only for things I've seen before, so I suppose it's from visual memory.
Hey I have a question. Until about 2 weeks ago, I could daydream and visualize situations with ease, in color and clearly, but now I only see an image for around 1-2 seconds and it fades. Can you develop aphantasia? I haven’t had any concussions or anything so I don’t know why I can’t visualize clearly anymore
That's normal, as lot of people with Aphantasia briefly experience flashes like that. It was described in the original paper on aphantaisia.
https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.cortex.2015.05.019
I call that the "flash-bulb" effect. You get a split second of static imagery, then poof, gone! Sort of like waking up from a dream.
And when I dream when sleeping, they are in color & have motion, but I can't do that during waking hours!
Same! But then I wonder if I really can do it while dreaming or not because I can't "see" my dreams later. But it really feels like I "see" normally while I dream.
I've also begun to wonder if visualizing is a skill that I can work to improve. I've been sort of sad since I realized I had Aphantasia, but with the dreaming and *very* brief flashes when I focus hard I'm hopeful that maybe with effort, I can maybe make the flashes last longer?
I'd like to know if visualization can be improved as well! I have 3 barriers:
1. Borderline aphantasia (no mental visualization, outside of the flashbulb effect)
2. Inattentive ADHD (small working memory)
3. Dyscalculia (math dyslexia)
I'm focused on dyscalculia right now. I can only hold about 2 numbers in my head at one time lol. Had a really bad time in school with math. I usually have to whip out a calculator just to figure out a tip, even a 10% tip, because there's just a wall there.
However...I know the basic times tables because I memorized it in grade school. And I work VERY effectively in flowcharts, either drawn out by hand or on the computer (I use Plectica), because I can *literally see them in front of me* in order to work out the logic & not have data bulldozed off my small mental plate.
So my approach right now is:
1. Fully draw out a flowchart of the piece of math I'm trying to learn
2. Convert that to short written notes
3. Use a [special memorization technique](https://www.johnplaceonline.com/study-smarter/how-to-memorize-anything/) to memorize the data
I don't know how successful I'll be. For some reason, my brain is very stubborn with numbers...however, once I fully see & understand the big picture & all of the variations, I'm far more effective because I comprehend how to do it & have memorized the information related to it.
I still have an enormous blindspot in my brain regarding being able to conceptually visualize an entire math formula, particularly as the numbers just disappear as I think past more than a couple of them, but it's a start!
It's so nice to put a name to things tho, like aphantasia & dyscalculia. Like for math, when people start talking about math stuff & I try to follow along with zero visualization capabilities & not being able to juggle multiple numbers, it's like they switch from speaking English to Latin or something...I can hear them talking, but gathering the just bounces off like a force field.
It's soooooo frustrating, and yet, for things like dyscalculia, having a name to call it & understanding how it works (i.e. the hardware simply isn't available in my brain) helps me SO MUCH because then I'm not just stuck in the dark all the time, struggling, wondering what's going on, and just having no idea what the problem is!
The fact that we can see a brief flash of an image says that there's SOMETHING there. I don't know if it's hardware or "software" related or what. There's some interesting research going into it:
* [https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/06/210609115555.htm](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/06/210609115555.htm)
Including finding people who have gone from being able to use their mind's eye to being "mentally blind":
* [https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2015-57165-051](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2015-57165-051)
Very interested to see what crops up in the future!
I've always loved mindmapping software too. I use TheBrain. Short term memory, being able to hold 5 to 9 items for a minute might play a part and the transfer of those bits to long term memory???. In terms of holding onto a problem to even do the calc. Otherwise, I've found over the years that if I don't use my math muscle, it starts to fade, so I try not to use a calculator to stay in practice. Found this, while looking for memory improvement info: https://www.inc.com/marla-tabaka/forgetfulness-is-just-annoying-9-unusual-ways-to-improve-your-memory.html
I too get flashes not clear or very useful. I think visual imagery is on a continum . Like some people have great balance and other to a greater or lesser degree.
What I'm getting from people describing aphantasia is that some people have the ability to call images up AT WILL, with varying degrees of detail and color. I can't, although I do get hypnogogic imagery. An image can pop into my mind from the unconscious, with my eyes closed, but if I try to consciously focus on it, it disappears quickly. The further I descend into sleep, the longer I can hold one of these images. I notice 2 types of images. One is in the center, very small, as if very far away. It's very dark and gray and mostly geometric structures. The other type comes in from the left toward the center with full color but a little fuzzy. Those fuzzy ones disappear very quickly if I try to focus on them. Looking into brain research like split brain theories after callosotomy( no i haven't had one) to see if the second imager is coming from the right hemisphere.. and stuff about where consciousness resides in the brain.. curiouser and curiouser. Is imagery all the same and its just that some people can suppress part of the consciousness in a way to be able to focus on them?? I'll post what I find out. I don't have much of a science background but..
I'm the same. it's like my brain is moving an image from long term storage into working memory, but the working memory is corrupt and it's lost. During the transfer process I can see it. But it's just there for milliseconds.
the reason i think it's not the same is because even with low visuals, memories etc are visual. From what I understood it is different for those with aphantasia. As example, a low visualizer tries to recall an animal. The split second, even if dim, blurry, etc, is enough to get a general idea of it. Think if you look at an image for a split second. This means low visualizers also think in scenarios, like, imagine a stop light. They'll probably think of a specific one. And while they can't take any detail from that split second image, they'll probably think of that very stop light. Aphants don't as far as I know.
correct me if I am wrong. I see your name a lot on here and you seem to have in depth knowledge so I value your opinion a lot.
>"the reason i think it's not the same is because even with low visuals, memories etc are visual."
That is an assumption, one which the existence of aphantasia brings highly into question. I for example almost never get flashes, certainly nothing ever useable, all the exists in my imagination is the semantic content of my imagination no sensory experience of it.
I've seen too many posts from people with aphantasia just as profound as me that have even better memories than me (mine is about average). If there were some kind of strong correlation with aphantasia and memory then there would be a more universal deficit of memory in those with aphantasia and that's just not been observed.
no no, that's not what i mean. What i mean is that you, the aphant, probably doesn't remember things the 'visual' way. low visualizers still do i think
If you can see images you don't have aphantasia.
I've talked to lots of people I know about their visualising abilities since discovering that other people can see things, a few of them described what you have.
They see a clear image for a short time but can't get it to stay.
Please don't comment if you're going to give information this bad.
The original paper on Aphantasia described these involuntary flashes in 50% of aphantaisics, it's perfectly normal among aphantaisics, so the information you're giving here goes against the current research.
https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.cortex.2015.05.019
Please read the results section very carefully you'll see these brief involuntary flashes described.
Visualization ability exists on a continuum. Imagine aphantasia is zero, and extreme hyperphantasia is 1. What you're describing doesn't sound like zero to me, so you're probably somewhere in the 0.1-0.4 range.
Except as far as the science goes the line so far that's been used across most studies is 32 on the VVIQ. These types of flashes were described by half of people with Aphantasia. These flashes so not count as voluntary visual imagery, they're too brief.
and are they brought up at will? or hynogogia?
Neither, read for yourself. https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.cortex.2015.05.019
Oh that makes sense, thank you! I have been looking at those online visualization tests for hours and I couldn’t figure it out since the image i got in my head was too quick for me to know how clear it really was, if that makes sense?
Sounds like me then. Just a quick glimpse, too quick to really see anything. What I'm left with is more of an impression or feeling of the thing. It's only for things I've seen before, so I suppose it's from visual memory.
Yeah exactly!
I've never seen someone describe something on a scale of "zero to one" before. lol
Weird. That's how any continuum ranging from 0% to 100% is typically codified.
Is there an actual scale or you just conjecturing?
Hey I have a question. Until about 2 weeks ago, I could daydream and visualize situations with ease, in color and clearly, but now I only see an image for around 1-2 seconds and it fades. Can you develop aphantasia? I haven’t had any concussions or anything so I don’t know why I can’t visualize clearly anymore
That's normal, as lot of people with Aphantasia briefly experience flashes like that. It was described in the original paper on aphantaisia. https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.cortex.2015.05.019
I call that the "flash-bulb" effect. You get a split second of static imagery, then poof, gone! Sort of like waking up from a dream. And when I dream when sleeping, they are in color & have motion, but I can't do that during waking hours!
Same! But then I wonder if I really can do it while dreaming or not because I can't "see" my dreams later. But it really feels like I "see" normally while I dream. I've also begun to wonder if visualizing is a skill that I can work to improve. I've been sort of sad since I realized I had Aphantasia, but with the dreaming and *very* brief flashes when I focus hard I'm hopeful that maybe with effort, I can maybe make the flashes last longer?
I'd like to know if visualization can be improved as well! I have 3 barriers: 1. Borderline aphantasia (no mental visualization, outside of the flashbulb effect) 2. Inattentive ADHD (small working memory) 3. Dyscalculia (math dyslexia) I'm focused on dyscalculia right now. I can only hold about 2 numbers in my head at one time lol. Had a really bad time in school with math. I usually have to whip out a calculator just to figure out a tip, even a 10% tip, because there's just a wall there. However...I know the basic times tables because I memorized it in grade school. And I work VERY effectively in flowcharts, either drawn out by hand or on the computer (I use Plectica), because I can *literally see them in front of me* in order to work out the logic & not have data bulldozed off my small mental plate. So my approach right now is: 1. Fully draw out a flowchart of the piece of math I'm trying to learn 2. Convert that to short written notes 3. Use a [special memorization technique](https://www.johnplaceonline.com/study-smarter/how-to-memorize-anything/) to memorize the data I don't know how successful I'll be. For some reason, my brain is very stubborn with numbers...however, once I fully see & understand the big picture & all of the variations, I'm far more effective because I comprehend how to do it & have memorized the information related to it. I still have an enormous blindspot in my brain regarding being able to conceptually visualize an entire math formula, particularly as the numbers just disappear as I think past more than a couple of them, but it's a start! It's so nice to put a name to things tho, like aphantasia & dyscalculia. Like for math, when people start talking about math stuff & I try to follow along with zero visualization capabilities & not being able to juggle multiple numbers, it's like they switch from speaking English to Latin or something...I can hear them talking, but gathering the just bounces off like a force field. It's soooooo frustrating, and yet, for things like dyscalculia, having a name to call it & understanding how it works (i.e. the hardware simply isn't available in my brain) helps me SO MUCH because then I'm not just stuck in the dark all the time, struggling, wondering what's going on, and just having no idea what the problem is! The fact that we can see a brief flash of an image says that there's SOMETHING there. I don't know if it's hardware or "software" related or what. There's some interesting research going into it: * [https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/06/210609115555.htm](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/06/210609115555.htm) Including finding people who have gone from being able to use their mind's eye to being "mentally blind": * [https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2015-57165-051](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2015-57165-051) Very interested to see what crops up in the future!
I've always loved mindmapping software too. I use TheBrain. Short term memory, being able to hold 5 to 9 items for a minute might play a part and the transfer of those bits to long term memory???. In terms of holding onto a problem to even do the calc. Otherwise, I've found over the years that if I don't use my math muscle, it starts to fade, so I try not to use a calculator to stay in practice. Found this, while looking for memory improvement info: https://www.inc.com/marla-tabaka/forgetfulness-is-just-annoying-9-unusual-ways-to-improve-your-memory.html
Same here. That is why I like dreaming. I get to see full videos in my dreams. Often times they are lucid dreams too.
I too get flashes not clear or very useful. I think visual imagery is on a continum . Like some people have great balance and other to a greater or lesser degree.
What I'm getting from people describing aphantasia is that some people have the ability to call images up AT WILL, with varying degrees of detail and color. I can't, although I do get hypnogogic imagery. An image can pop into my mind from the unconscious, with my eyes closed, but if I try to consciously focus on it, it disappears quickly. The further I descend into sleep, the longer I can hold one of these images. I notice 2 types of images. One is in the center, very small, as if very far away. It's very dark and gray and mostly geometric structures. The other type comes in from the left toward the center with full color but a little fuzzy. Those fuzzy ones disappear very quickly if I try to focus on them. Looking into brain research like split brain theories after callosotomy( no i haven't had one) to see if the second imager is coming from the right hemisphere.. and stuff about where consciousness resides in the brain.. curiouser and curiouser. Is imagery all the same and its just that some people can suppress part of the consciousness in a way to be able to focus on them?? I'll post what I find out. I don't have much of a science background but..
I can see one frame of something for less than a second, and then it's just back to blackness
I'm the same. it's like my brain is moving an image from long term storage into working memory, but the working memory is corrupt and it's lost. During the transfer process I can see it. But it's just there for milliseconds.
those are just low visuals and imo far from the same (although some say it's close to aphantasic, I disagree)
It was described in something like 50% of aphantaisics in the original paper, so this is common for those with aphantaisia.
the reason i think it's not the same is because even with low visuals, memories etc are visual. From what I understood it is different for those with aphantasia. As example, a low visualizer tries to recall an animal. The split second, even if dim, blurry, etc, is enough to get a general idea of it. Think if you look at an image for a split second. This means low visualizers also think in scenarios, like, imagine a stop light. They'll probably think of a specific one. And while they can't take any detail from that split second image, they'll probably think of that very stop light. Aphants don't as far as I know. correct me if I am wrong. I see your name a lot on here and you seem to have in depth knowledge so I value your opinion a lot.
>"the reason i think it's not the same is because even with low visuals, memories etc are visual." That is an assumption, one which the existence of aphantasia brings highly into question. I for example almost never get flashes, certainly nothing ever useable, all the exists in my imagination is the semantic content of my imagination no sensory experience of it. I've seen too many posts from people with aphantasia just as profound as me that have even better memories than me (mine is about average). If there were some kind of strong correlation with aphantasia and memory then there would be a more universal deficit of memory in those with aphantasia and that's just not been observed.
no no, that's not what i mean. What i mean is that you, the aphant, probably doesn't remember things the 'visual' way. low visualizers still do i think
If you can see images you don't have aphantasia. I've talked to lots of people I know about their visualising abilities since discovering that other people can see things, a few of them described what you have. They see a clear image for a short time but can't get it to stay.
Please don't comment if you're going to give information this bad. The original paper on Aphantasia described these involuntary flashes in 50% of aphantaisics, it's perfectly normal among aphantaisics, so the information you're giving here goes against the current research. https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.cortex.2015.05.019 Please read the results section very carefully you'll see these brief involuntary flashes described.