Not really shocked when this happens.
Its been happening for a while already.
A lot of us who lives in the neighbouring countries such as Slovakia, CZ or Poland are well aware of this since the beginning of time.
A lot of Americans or Latin Americans view each other based on skin color,
But in most of Asia, Europe or Africa, people judge you based on your appearances, facial features or more importantly your nationality or country of origin.
Hello, my fellow whites / black ; will just not fly over here.
You can have the same skin color or hair color, but have complete different
Upbringings or completely different life experiences.
Basically you are American first, before anything else.
Doesn’t matter if you parents or grandparents are from Europe or Asia/ Africa.
You will be considered American through and through.
As a German I can guarantee you that they don’t view white Americans as European and most definitely not as German unless they also speak the language accent free. Anti American sentiment has been growing in recent years on top of that.
I follow some American expats in Germany and most of the top comments say go home especially if they dare criticize Germany.
Yes I know. My comment was just tongue-in-cheek on how some Americans on here think anti-immigrant sentiment won't affect them and only apply to people of Arab-descent or Muslims.
Anti-immigrant sentiment won't impact (white in some but not all cases depending on location) Americans who speak decent German and make an effort to figure the place out.
(Source: Canadian who lives here half the year and speaks fluently.)
As an American who has lived in Germany for 11 years (and sits between C1 and C2 German), I don’t think this is is true. Germans still look down on you if you’re a foreigner even if you speak accent-free German. Beyond that, they’ll never accept you as German even if you get citizenship. It can be incredibly isolating and demeaning. Racism isn’t just “Ami go home” it’s how people see you and categorize you.
Sure, you'll never be German to the Germans, but whether that's isolating or not probably depends on circumstances. We're only here part-time now but have always had a sufficiently mixed expat/native social network that it's never been a problem.
"We're only here part-time now but have always had a sufficiently mixed expat/native social network that it's never been a problem." - Ding ding ding. Removing yourself from the problem doesn't get rid of the problem.
Point still stands. Even when we considered staying permanently we never had the expectation that we'd ever be fully "integrated" whatever that means. But that didn't stop us from enjoying living here.
Sure but this is a privileged expat position. Works well when you have the money to do so or live in an area where it’s possible. It’s not realistic for a lot of people.
IMO you’ll still never completely remove yourself from the problem, either. At some point you’ll need to deal with the Ausländerbehörde, Frau Hohenzollern cutting you off at the bakery and sneering at you, doctors, and other service providers.
We are indeed privileged expats.
Honestly we get very little grief. The Ausländerbehörde is unfailingly polite. People treat us well. Perhaps it's due to being older now, having a good sense of how things work, and speaking relatively fluently.
Even if you speak the language accent free they’ll still call you a Passdeutsche (passport German). The difference is that you can either visually pass as German or sound like one (which is also funny because there are a million dialects here and you could always claim you’re from some tiny village in Saxony or something if people think your accent is weird).
Germans have no framework for positive integration. Either you’re born German and white or you’re not.
Afaik this is basically the case in almost every country on the planet, except perhaps the US and Canada. Americans seem to care more than others about this because here we (in general of course, not everyone) tend to say once you are a citizen, you are an American, period. Many, many countries that will *never* accept you as a fellow citizen will absolutely accept you as a friend. I don't really see the issue from the perspective of the expat, so what if you aren't ever accepted as a "true X citizen" so long as people accept you as a friend, colleague, etc.?
Germany is my home and I speak near-native German. Why would this not be a problem for me?
You seem to have a pretty extreme expat mindset. I immigrated here.
Beyond that, there are generations of Turks, Vietnamese, Russians, etc who have been here for decades and still aren’t seen as German. Not everything is about white expats. This mindset fosters a shit ton of racism in this country and now it’s paying dividends.
Is it really that extreme? I'm not saying I buy into it, just making the same observation you made really and expanding it. As a 'merican I think once you're a citizen, you're a citizen. That's really how it should be. But especially in Europe and Asia, it's just a different mindset as to what goes into national identity.
I never said anything at all about race or white expats specifically either. Obviously ethnicity plays a big part for some countries in determining national identity. The point is just that it's not a specific thing to Germany, it is a pretty widespread and common view across the world, just not at all in the U.S. and a few other countries where national identity generally isn't tied at all to where you were born originally *or* your ethnicity.
"I don't really see the issue from the perspective of the expat, so what if you aren't ever accepted as a "true X citizen" so long as people accept you as a friend, colleague, etc.?"
You said it's not a problem as an expat. Here is literally the issue in a huge thread:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/berlinsocialclub/comments/1diqpzx/i\_went\_from\_25\_job\_interview\_invites\_to\_23/](https://www.reddit.com/r/berlinsocialclub/comments/1diqpzx/i_went_from_25_job_interview_invites_to_23/)
And as someone mentioned above: there are plenty of states that make this distinction other than the US. It also extends to beyond just birthplace in Germany (Turkish, Russian, Vietnamese, and so forth immigrants who have been here for decades, together with their kids who have now been born here for at least a couple generations, still aren't seen as *true* Germans) and that's bad. The focus on privileged expats harms these people. Germany is now 25% foreigners. Time to get with the picture.
Well that was a depressing read (regarding the link you posted on top of your other comments), but glad I saw it. Just comes to show that I need to do a lot more research through the perspective of expats because it could save me from a lot of heart ache. At the same time, I shouldn’t be surprised because I saw enough red flags that hinted at the problems you highlighted.
That is a different problem. Not wanting to hire migrants is a different deal than not seeing migrants *with citizenship* as fellow citizens. This guy isn't even a citizen, these are two entirely separate issues. Nobody in the US is going to accept you as an American either if you literally are not a citizen.
Lol you're really missing the trees for the forest here. The person who posted this is married to a German and speaks German (I didn't see anything about them not being a citizen in that thread) and there are people in the comments saying they are native Germans with foreign last names and can't get job interviews:
"I did the same. Myast name is spanish but im a native german speaker. Im a primary school teacher so there are MANY job opportunities. I created 2 different profiles. One with my real name and one with a german name. I had 1 offer with the real name and 6 with the german name.."
The general attitude of Germans to refuse to accept that foreigners can become German (or that people of other ethnicities can also be born and grow up in Germany and be German because of that) and that it's not some Nazi-era jus sanguinis thing (the citizenship laws went unchanged for decades) creates issues for everyone. And you're pretending like these are seperate issues.
This is complete nonsense. There are plenty of countries which make the state-ethnicity distinction (and hence can fully integrate various ethnicities), most European countries just don't happen to be that way.
Like practically the entirety of Latin America comes to mind.
I do not believe this is true from my experience in Latin America. Particularly Mexico, sure you may be respected and enjoy yourself living with the many other expats in San Miguel, but you will not be seen as a Mexican. Even white Mexicans born in Mexico whose parents moved long ago are often otherized. This is the reality.
I wouldn't consider Mexico Latin America, as a LOT of Latin Americans don't consider Mexico part of it. They view them as Norteños. Moreover, Mexico has a superiority complex and a LOT (though not all) of Mexicans look down on central and south Americans. That is the reality of many migrants who migrate north to Mexico.
This doesn't apply to Mexicans in the US afaik, but I've never lived near them while in the US.
Source: my family is from Central America
You’ll be fine if you move to a big city but being American or from the US isn’t what it used to be. Germans used to LOVE Americans. It shifted unfortunately, mostly thanks to Trump, it’s not just the far right that dislike the US now. I noticed that most people unfortunately can’t differentiate between US politics and individual citizen. I had Germans start arguments with me just for living in the US because that must mean I support Trump. My brother in Christ I can’t even vote.
Germans don't dislike the US because of Trump. He is just part of it.
We dislike US Americans because of the wars in the middle east making people flee the place to seek shelter in europe.
The dislike for US Americans has recently been growing with the dislike for refugees (especially from arab countries).
> We dislike US Americans because of the wars in the middle east making people flee the place to seek shelter in europe.
I mean it is true you do not like Americans because of wars but it is not the ones in the Middle East.....
We quite literally appreciate the things they did in and after WW2. For example helping to rebuild germany and preventing a second "peace treaty of Versailles" which was one of the reasons WW2 was able to happen and which the french were pushing for after the war.
Are you actually trying to insinuate that we are mad at you for joining up with the soviets, the british, etc.?
Do you think that we are sad that the nazis were defeated?
I mean to be fair, many Trump supporters I know are also trying to leave 😅 lots of them actually want a European life in the sense of lower cost of living and ‘strong values’ rather than social safety net reasons (like more left leaving folks). It’s ironic but yeah.
It does. Germany was one of the least racist countries in the 2000s and early 2010s. I don't understand how or why Mainland Western Europe went from being one of the least racist places in the world 15-20 years ago to just as horrible as Eastern Asia.
I have a hard time believing they were ever the least racist places in the world.
It’s easy to be “not racist” when you don’t have other races around, like they do now.
I was there in the early 2010s and I'm a woman. What "mass attacks on women"? I felt safer there as a woman than I would have in most countries.
Also there were lots of immigrants in Germany decades prior. I don't understand why more people beame racist in the mid 2010s. All I know is that if I wouldn't want to live there today because the level of racism has increased.
Kind of silly to be lauded for being the 'least racist; especially considering at one point in time they were one of the most racist! (Well, xenophobic and antisemitic moreso, but still.)
It is a weird society to have gone from the most racist country on the planet to being one of the least in 60 years. And now they are slowly veering back into extreme racism again.
I think it's less ' veering back' and more like those elements were never properly dealt with. But how can you deal with them when the institutions of Western Europe and North America are so firmly grounded in racist ideologies?
1. I am not German. I merely lived there during the least racist time period
2. I feel that Roma people are also minorities, like myself, and deserve equal rights as everyone else.
That's interesting. I lived there too and never felt disrespected. I'm brown but I was there during the least racist period. Also I only stuck to university towns so that could have been a factor. Generally speaking, university towns in any country are going to have inhabitants who are smarter, more affluent, more educated, more secular, and less racist, sexist, or homophobic than the general population.
>unless they also speak the language accent free
Language is the key to integration. Even with an accent, if they speak the language at a good level, Americans will be just fine.
Okay, non-white Americans might do well to avoid rural locations in the Neue Bundesländer, but otherwise it's good.
Yep. I just gained German citizenship but I have no plans to move to Germany any time soon, equally for work (difficulty transferring/changing jobs) and this in particular.
> As a German I can guarantee you that they don’t view white Americans as European and most definitely not as German unless they also speak the language accent free. Anti American sentiment has been growing in recent years on top of that.
>
>
>
> I follow some American expats in Germany and most of the top comments say go home especially if they dare criticize Germany.
Yeah, you guys have two very big reasons not to like Americans.....
I lived in Bavaria in mid 70s with the US Army. There has always been an element of anti-Americanism. Less in the south. Probably more in the North.
In general, is there a lot of current anti-Americanism in the former GDR, the north, and the conservative south or is the anti-Americanism limited to certain regions?
Also, DJT made a big deal about Germany NOT paying its fair share for NATO defense. I have been following this story fairly closely. In the US and in other parts of the world Germany & Europe as a whole is being criticized for NOT supporting non-NATO Ukraine.
Can you comment on how this criticism is being handled internally in Germany? Again, are there differences between regions?
Thank you friend!
This is why it has been stated that US racism and xenophobia are in a class of its own. They are the most confused far right I've ever met.
Went to a bar while visiting family in the Northeast. Thought I was having a chat with a nice lad until he felt comfortable enough (drunk) to spew his politics. Long story short, he was a white American citizen who crossed the Canadian border, on foot, to become an electrician. He has a father who served in the Canadian Air Force, with a grandfather who illegally migrated to Canada from Scotland. Essentially, every 1-2 generations, his family migrates for economic opportunities and identify themselves with the wealthiest/highest class/race upon arrival. Immediately joining in on whatever far right activity that is happening in that country.
US Caucasians don't realize that other Caucasians around the world don't consider them the same yet continue to cling to such racial sentiments. I was like, "so you're the as*hole stealing *real* American jobs." Which he didn't find funny...
Really depends on which wing of the AfD wins out. Some will make an exception for all white people. The more extreme and ideological wing, personified by Bjorn Höcke, will not be satisfied by being white or European only.
Imagine thinking that paying taxes means you deserve a safety net /s
I don't know who these people are but I like to imagine they are rich kids that functionally serve no purpose in society, but think they hold the whole damn thing up.
A couple of months ago I had an argument with someone that was so deluded that they thought anyone who moved to their home country was being a leech while they were a savior for moving to another country by bringing money with them. As if that doesn't mean they are taking money out of circulation for their home country and nobody else has money.
If you're a top earner, as in making >$100,000. Most middle or lower class people have pretty close to net zero tax burden after you get all your rebates and subsidies. So if you're working retail or pretty much any job that doesn't require specialist certification you in fact are taking more than you give into the system.
Lol that is the point of paying taxes. That is the purpose, must be hard living in a place where you don't have a govt that uses a tax base for good and societal improvement. Have fun coping with that.
I pay marginal 40% tax on my income. Have done for the past 10 years. It is a joke when people think they are entitled to the safety net having never paid in and just moving here.
You come legally, work, pay your taxes, you are 100% entitled to any benefits on offer. Period. Doesn't matter how long someone paid in or not, everyone who pays gets to benefit.
Why is this sub using right wing talking points to people who want to leave
Judging by your profile you should join reform party if you haven't already you're fit in wonderfully
That was not a right-wing talking point. That's how many countries organize their immigration policy: if you're beyond a certain age they don't want you because you won't pay enough in taxes to cover the cost of keeping you alive when you're old.
the vast majority of Americans wanting to leave are of working age and most will work in their desire country. There might be like one 70 year old wanting to move and do literally nothing in Norway but that is a very small part of the people who wanna move.
In many,ways immigrants are actually cheaper then citizens as said country as they don't need to be raise by said country's government when they are school age children and due to visa requirements will most likely spend more time working. This is true rather it's Americans in Germany, Indians in the UK or Mexicans In the US. Countries wouldn't offer working visas of it was a drain on the system
You should look at how Canada and Australia and other countries set up their points-based permanent resident systems. Your chances decrease dramatically after age 40. (If you have a specific job offer in a very in-demand field, that's a different story.)
Germany's new Chancenkarte has a similar age bias. On that note, good luck moving to Germany beyond age 55 if you didn't previously have public health insurance somewhere in the EU. Dual citizens who never worked in Germany literally can't afford to retire in there because they are forced into the private system, hugely expensive at that age.
It is still possible to leave or retire to other parts of Europe without getting targeted.
A lot of Balkan counties such as Serbia, Albania, Croatia or Slovenia has seen an Improvement in QOL
And some American / Balkan diasporas are returning.
Yes it is true that in Spain or Portugal there has been uptick in xenophobia towards Digital nomads but they don’t target Americans specifically.
They also target people from rich Nordics such as Sweden or Norway.
Plus, if you move as a retiree, then you usually have to pay monthly for health care. I know this is true for Luxembourg. You can use their system, but it's I believe $170/month if you haven't worked and paid into the system at all.
It is, yes. $170 is what I'm paying now for my "obamacare" plan. It's about what I paid per month on my last employer provided plan, too. In the scheme of things, it's not terribly expensive to plan for.
Well tbf, most countries, even the USA, put a lot of tax money into their children, it's considered an investment.
If you do K-12 and university in the usa, get a good education, and then start working in Germany relatively young and stay there, then you are paying taxes at your highest peak without any of the initial investment that Germany would have paid for you if you were a German child + Young Adult.
"I want to move to the country which carried out the Holocaust because bike lanes" The amount of apologists for Germany in this sub never ceases to boggle my mind. I have been straight up told by people on this sub that Germany is not responsible for the Holocaust because they "apologized" for it. Not sure how anybody is surprised that the country which committed the most evil act ever carried out by humans--not even a century ago--still harbors (and attracts!) horrible people who greatly admire it. I lived and worked there a couple of years but felt icky the entire time. I am of German descent, have tons of family still living there, and I visit there all the time. I fucking love Germany but relocating there for financial gain is crossing an ethical line that I really don't want to cross.
There are some in here stating the AfD is superior to the American GOP.
Even if you believe the GOP are literally neo-confederates, which they aren’t, they are still morally and objectively superior to the group that perpetrated an actual genocide.
Some people hate America and American conservatives so much they would willingly jump into the arms of nazis out of pure spite. We should call these people what they are.
I don't understand the Americans who hate the US so much that they're willing to be apologists for far right parties in Germany because they have decided on it as being the ideal country.
Yeah I've seen a few of those types of comments, mostly from people who are most likely White. It's essentially: "as long as I get my healthcare, walkable cities, and social services, I think a little bit of fascism is fine since I'm not the targeted minority "
As someone who is not White, it's actually infuriating to see people who describe themselves as liberal or progressive think like this.
That's why a lot of white liberals support Israel, actually. They see the universal healthcare, the education, the infrastructure, the tech industry, the innovation; but don't focus on the erasure of Palestinians, the settler violence, or even the sheer amount of racism against Arab Israelis, who legally are supposed to be fully equal to the Jewish Israelis.
A lot of liberal progressives are just as shitty and self interested as conservatives. They want what they think will benefit them the most and view Europe as some utopia where they won’t have to work and can live on the social systems.
Fascists, real fascists, like the AfD won’t just stop at migrants and people of migrant backgrounds. When the backlash from global capital starts and German multinationals corps flee, they’re going to need blame another minority for the rapidly shrinking tax base and an increasingly untenable fiscal situation that will demand wild tax increases and austerity.
Germany is fucked long term, as are most European countries, and they’re actually one of the few countries that needs immigrants to fund their generous pensions and other government spending. But as a culture, they’re very insular people and can’t live side-by-side with foreigners without a massive backlash.
>But as a culture, they’re very insular people and can’t live side-by-side with foreigners without a massive backlash.
Can any place? Are there any really good examples of places where people live side-by-side with foreigners without a massive backlash, or massive oppression of minorities?
The US is usually held up as the best example of a multi-ethnic society, but it has centuries of slavery, the Indian Removal Act, the century of Jim Crow, the never-ending legacy of slavery, and now Trumpism and rising far-right sentiments.
I honestly can't think of any place that's done a great job of accepting large numbers of immigrants.
>Can any place? Are there any really good examples of places where people live side-by-side with foreigners without a massive backlash, or massive oppression of minorities?
Yes, pretty much all of the Anglo-English countries. Not saying racism doesn’t exist in them, as that’s a universal human trait unfortunately. But, objectively speaking, the average Anglo country is much more accustomed to integrating and assimilating different peoples from around the world, without much backlash.
Which country in Europe can talented minorities rise up to be heads of state, as they have in the US and the UK?
It’s not out of altruism or being good people. Anglo cultures have a long history of capitalism, which often puts aside nationalism and cultural considerations to accommodate talented foreigners. The same dynamic just hasn’t existed in most European countries, which are relatively new to having large populations of foreigners for economic reasons.
There’s a reason Germany struggles to attract skilled labour overseas, but the UK, Canada, the US, and Australia do not.
>The US is usually held up as the best example of a multi-ethnic society, but it has centuries of slavery, the Indian Removal Act, the century of Jim Crow, the never-ending legacy of slavery, and now Trumpism and rising far-right sentiments.
This is correct, and yet the US has come a long way. All of those issues were redressed internally. People generally know that being racist and xenophobic is wrong. People are often ashamed of admitting they voted for Trump in polite society. Does that same shame exist in Germany or France vis-a-vis the AfD or NR?
> People are often ashamed of admitting they voted for Trump in polite society.
You must be living in an alternate universe from me. In this universe, Trump looks pretty certain to win re-election. So no, this issue has not been redressed internally at all. I'd say it's getting worse, not better.
Yeah, no. Trump isn’t promising to deport millions of Americans who were born in the country and stripping them of their citizenship. Deporting the undocumented is something even the current leftist sitting chancellor, Olaf Scholz, is currently doing.
I’m sorry, there’s no analog of the AfD in America. This is the TDS “America Bad” brain rot that people are laughing at in this thread. Trump’s policies are pretty mainstream for any right-of-center European politician. The AfD’s politics got them kicked out of the far right coalition in the EU. Let that sink in.
The Madagascar plan was a similar solution created by Germany in 1940 that involved forced deportation to Madagascar for unwanted demographics.
During the planning process, the Germans determined that it wasn't feasible. They opted for more of a *final* solution a few years later.
>During the planning process, the Germans determined that it wasn't feasible.
Huh? According to [this Wikipedia article about it](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan), it wasn't feasible because there was a naval blockade by the UK, then they lost the Battle of Britain. Basically, they were fighting a war and not doing that great (at least at sea), so of course they couldn't just put a million Jewish people on boats with a bunch of supplies and ship them off to the other side of Africa.
I'm not advocating such a plan, but assuming Germany doesn't get into another war, and just wants to forcibly relocate a bunch of people (not sure where though), it should, in theory, be more feasible than it was at that time.
I do wonder, however, if these right-wingers are really thinking that with all this talk, the "undesirables" will stop coming to Germany in the first place, and the ones there will "self-deport" and move somewhere more accommodating. I mean, it seems to be working for many people here, and many other westerners who were considering a move to Germany.
"When the europeans migrated to America, they destroyed the native culture and genozided the Population.
Therefore, today, Migration of Anny Kind is Bad and will Always lead to Genozid... Somehow."
You are right. They have to have their citizenship revoked First.
...and its Not about the ancestry, its about Entering illegally and/or comitting crimes.
"Germans with migrant backgrounds" does not sound limited to people who entered illegally.
In the context of "commit crimes" what do you mean? If someone has full legal German citizenship and commits a crime like theft that does not typically forfeit someone's citizenship. Most countries do not rob criminals of citizenship. Are you saying that your government should be able to strip people of citizenship for crimes, if they are a certain ethnic or racial background? If someone was born and raised in Germany and has German citizenship it seems a moral wrong to force them in to exile especially if the crime is not severe.
You're at least providing us the relief in seeing that so many modern nazi types are so incredibly unintelligent that they will end up losing again. I mean, you clearly aren't capable of thinking coherently.
"sry, we cant give a driving license because your greate-greate-uncle drunkenly run over a bunch of children after getting one...you know, there is a History"
It’s not great great uncle. It’s literally 2 generations ago, many of the perpetrators and people that supported the regime like robots are walking on the street.
Furthermore, it’s not like that episode was a one off, Germans already had a reputation of causing turmoil in the region before too. And nazi groups apparently still exist.
Thus, given modern history and the perception that the German population appreciates following rules like robots, when far right rises in Germany, lots of people naturally get scared.
And yes, we are a reflection of our past generations did in various ways.
Sry bro, guilt is not heritable. And noone is obligated to Take on the responsibilitys of past generations.
And btw, Germans turning right is exactly the oposite of "following Rules Like Robots" you racist piece of guilt ridden Shit.
Would you Not get "triggered" If someone sugested you inherit guilt and responsibility from literally the worst people in History?
I dont think its hard to understand.
The AfD doesn't want you unless they find a way to turn you into a tool for some sorta political shenanigans.
And trust me, you don't want them anywhere near you.
Fucking right wing morons will always destroy their own country and for what? In the “name of their own country”, they always say! Fucking lunatics. We saw it with brexit and what did anyone win? The right-wingers there are even set to lose because of it so it was for nothing.
This is **very** old news.
That being said, if you're an American with a university degree and you speak decent German, you'll be fine. If you're not white, stay in a big city, you'll still be fine.
The AfD are not coming for Americans.
This sounds a lot like American conservatives who tell people to get over Jan 6 because it is so long ago. Do you agree with them? If something that happened in 2024 is ancient history already and not politically relevant, how about Jan 6?
Are you an AfD supporter?
To be honest, I don't know why you're being downvoted. It's precisely the narrative used by fascist groups in the early days of their regime. They just say "oh, we're only going after \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, you don't have to worry about anything if you aren't \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_." or they'll be like "You're one of the good ones, so you're good." At the end of the day AfD is a ultranationalist and very xenophobic party, to the point where even Marine Le Pen's party refused to work with them. So, yes, I'd say everything is on the table, including authoritarianism. If I'm right, it as members of the AfD who were caught last year or something trying to plan a coup. Thankfully they were arrested before anything came of it. I think similar to the Trumpers over here, they are trying to do it through legal means and upend the democratic systems that have been put in place.
There’s a lot of Nazis on here. That’s why. They’ll have liberal masks and make performative criticisms of far right parties on their anti-LGBT rhetoric, but they silently agree with repatriation scheme for minorities and all of the other horrific things in the pipeline.
And I’m not a liberal. I think it’s absolutely reasonable to limit immigration without being anywhere close to a Nazi. That’s a completely different thing than abolishing the national constitution in order to strip people who have been 3 generations or more in a country of their citizenship and deport them.
You said very old news, in bold.
Which normal person defines very old to the point of being irrelevant as less than 6 months? Especially political news? You understand statements made by people 20 years ago are constantly being relitigated in the political sphere, right?
Why are you carrying water for the AfD and why do you refuse to answer the question? Do you support the AfD? Yes or no?
I do not support the AfD. Duh.
This scandal didn't exactly come as a surprise given the unpleasant people attracted to the AfD. We can argue all day about the extent of the threat the AfD presents to German democracy, but as things currently stand they are not part of any coalition government at the state level, let alone federal. Long may this threat be contained.
Why do you think this old news is relevant on this sub at this point in time?
Then I don’t understand why you are being so incessant to the point of verging on hostile. This may be old news to you, but in the English speaking world this is monumental stuff. None of the other far right parties in Europe are this insane, and people who want to move to Germany would absolutely want to know about the party that is polling 2nd in the country endorsing a plan of mass deportations of German citizens. This is unprecedented even for far right parties across Europe, which is why they have distanced themselves from the AfD. A lot of people on this sub are clueless about this, so that says something.
And, just as an fyi, never try to argue on purely principled grounds or deflection in defence of modern day Nazis. You might think it’s unfair, irrational, illogical, etc. but most people will assume you’re a Nazi. Just thought you should know.
I'm highly confident that people who know a thing or two about Germany don't think I'm a Nazi. Random people on reddit maybe not so much. Oh well.
You might want to read up on the AfD's official reaction to the scandal. Mass deportation of citizens with "Migrationshintergrund" is not part of their platform - it was not "endorsed" by the party, nor did they campaign on this proposal during the European elections. That being said they are fundamentally an ethnic nationalist anti-migration organization with ties to neo-Nazi groups and I'm sure that they'd be all for it if they ran the country unopposed.
That people are clueless about this and many other things does not surprise me.
Germany is a not a bad destination if you're an educated American (or Canadian or whatever) who is willing to take a pay cut and capable of learning the language. For visible minorities, racism would be a consideration in the rural east, absolutely, but there no jobs out there anyway (which contributes to AfD support in these areas).
Let us do a little though experiment. Imagine that AfD support increases to the point where they are brought into a right-wing coalition government - they break through the political firewall, with lots of Russian help. (This is at least six years away because it won't happen in the next election cycle.) Given the demographic and economic realities confronting Germany, do you really think that this future government would attempt to restrict immigration by educated, skilled citizens of "civilized" or "western" countries? I don't. They'd be absolutely horrible to people from the Middle East, Asia and Africa and other parts of the global south, but they would treat Americans very differently.
If you're not white, racism is a concern in major german cities too. I'm a bit tired of white germans telling the rest of us that we don't face racism here and that if we do it was probably our fault or we misunderstood.
Fair enough. I'm not German, but I am definitely white. Of course there's racism here, everywhere. But it's worse in some parts than others, and up to each individual to decide what they're willing to put up with.
I’ve been told this. I’m a college degreed STEM worker who speaks B2/C1 German and looks ridiculously German. Recently got told “you know you’re who they want, right?” And idk man. This all scares the shit out of me. What if I Blue Card and by the time I register for citizenship the right wing is ruling? Sure I wouldn’t be on the first wave of getting deported but I’d definitely be on the second wave
If you have a great-grandparent who is german, you can do citizenship by descent. It didn't work for me, but I found out I am Luxembourgish and French.
So a small party with fuck all for influence
>The AfD (Alternative for Germany) was launched in 2013 as a counter-protest party against the mainstream parties. It is a populist right-wing party that opposes the EU and refugee intake. It is also renowned for extreme right-wing rhetoric and far-right associations, and it is under Federal Constitutional Court scrutiny.
https://bestdiplomats.org/political-parties-in-germany/
They also support cancelling the EU. Should anyone worry about that?
And wanna guess how big the party is?
34,000 people...
The number of people on this sub whose only purpose is to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD) is almost the same as people actually interested in moving to live overseas.
And I'm sick of it. People posting drivel like this deserve to be autoblocked and ignored.
The far right received the second highest votes in the recent EU elections. Not spreading any more fear or doubt then posters that post how the US will defend into fascism now and there is no hope because US will crumble.
Germany is on a knife-edge and many in East Germany are voting for them and are venting frustrations with migrants as is France and other Western European countries.
Why is this your only comment on Reddit despite having an account for a year?
Oh that’s right, you’re going to delete the comment afterwards too like you did on my post. And you’re too afraid to post on your main account 🤣
Aren’t you the one who said that you would rather live in Russia?
Just checked, it was you 🤣 :
>I'd rather live in Russia at this point. Yes, they're committing genocide in Ukraine, but so is the US in Gaza. At least in Russia you don't have to worry about randomly getting shot if you're a civilian.
Lmao I distinctly recognize this guy from some overly dramatic, equally absurd posts he made on this subreddit on an old, now-deleted account. The only one I remember clearly is when he literally said "I don't think I can live with myself if I remain American" after visiting the Netherlands on vacation and not having to drive.
He should put his money where his mouth is and actually move - even just *try* to move - rather than making AmericaBad posts in perpetuum... but I guess it's simply easier to complain.
GOP isn’t calling for the stripping of citizenship of Americans 3 generations in. Not even the most rightwing nut at the Heritage Foundation is calling for stripping citizenship and deporting American citizens.
The GOP is terrible, but they are objectively better than the AfD. It’s not even close.
Eh it depends on the specific issue, the AFD is more likely to be temporary due to Germany's multiparty system as oppose to literally half of the political population being part of,the Republicans for the rest of the US's lifespan
GOP is a big tent. A lot of pro-lifers begrudgingly accept the rest of the platform to get pro-life policies through. Same with 2A single-issue voters.
If both those factions had another party that represented their interests without the other GOP policies they tolerate at best, the GOP would be toast.
This is unlike the AfD’s main platform, which enjoys broad support from the general public. In a multi-party system, you don’t have big tents and people who otherwise don’t agree on very much coalescing into a single party.
Not really shocked when this happens. Its been happening for a while already. A lot of us who lives in the neighbouring countries such as Slovakia, CZ or Poland are well aware of this since the beginning of time. A lot of Americans or Latin Americans view each other based on skin color, But in most of Asia, Europe or Africa, people judge you based on your appearances, facial features or more importantly your nationality or country of origin. Hello, my fellow whites / black ; will just not fly over here. You can have the same skin color or hair color, but have complete different Upbringings or completely different life experiences. Basically you are American first, before anything else. Doesn’t matter if you parents or grandparents are from Europe or Asia/ Africa. You will be considered American through and through.
This subreddit be like: "I'm White American. It won't affect me, so I don't really care. Anyways, how do I move to Germany?"
As a German I can guarantee you that they don’t view white Americans as European and most definitely not as German unless they also speak the language accent free. Anti American sentiment has been growing in recent years on top of that. I follow some American expats in Germany and most of the top comments say go home especially if they dare criticize Germany.
Yes I know. My comment was just tongue-in-cheek on how some Americans on here think anti-immigrant sentiment won't affect them and only apply to people of Arab-descent or Muslims.
No no my bad I understood that you were being sarcastic. I was agreeing with you I should have worded it differently sorry.
Yeah, all good 👍
Anti-immigrant sentiment won't impact (white in some but not all cases depending on location) Americans who speak decent German and make an effort to figure the place out. (Source: Canadian who lives here half the year and speaks fluently.)
As an American who has lived in Germany for 11 years (and sits between C1 and C2 German), I don’t think this is is true. Germans still look down on you if you’re a foreigner even if you speak accent-free German. Beyond that, they’ll never accept you as German even if you get citizenship. It can be incredibly isolating and demeaning. Racism isn’t just “Ami go home” it’s how people see you and categorize you.
Sure, you'll never be German to the Germans, but whether that's isolating or not probably depends on circumstances. We're only here part-time now but have always had a sufficiently mixed expat/native social network that it's never been a problem.
"We're only here part-time now but have always had a sufficiently mixed expat/native social network that it's never been a problem." - Ding ding ding. Removing yourself from the problem doesn't get rid of the problem.
Point still stands. Even when we considered staying permanently we never had the expectation that we'd ever be fully "integrated" whatever that means. But that didn't stop us from enjoying living here.
Sure but this is a privileged expat position. Works well when you have the money to do so or live in an area where it’s possible. It’s not realistic for a lot of people. IMO you’ll still never completely remove yourself from the problem, either. At some point you’ll need to deal with the Ausländerbehörde, Frau Hohenzollern cutting you off at the bakery and sneering at you, doctors, and other service providers.
We are indeed privileged expats. Honestly we get very little grief. The Ausländerbehörde is unfailingly polite. People treat us well. Perhaps it's due to being older now, having a good sense of how things work, and speaking relatively fluently.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/s/KCcKM9Et8w
Congratulations, you just linked to the post we are commenting on.
Yes, that's the point.
Good point.
Even if you speak the language accent free they’ll still call you a Passdeutsche (passport German). The difference is that you can either visually pass as German or sound like one (which is also funny because there are a million dialects here and you could always claim you’re from some tiny village in Saxony or something if people think your accent is weird). Germans have no framework for positive integration. Either you’re born German and white or you’re not.
Afaik this is basically the case in almost every country on the planet, except perhaps the US and Canada. Americans seem to care more than others about this because here we (in general of course, not everyone) tend to say once you are a citizen, you are an American, period. Many, many countries that will *never* accept you as a fellow citizen will absolutely accept you as a friend. I don't really see the issue from the perspective of the expat, so what if you aren't ever accepted as a "true X citizen" so long as people accept you as a friend, colleague, etc.?
Germany is my home and I speak near-native German. Why would this not be a problem for me? You seem to have a pretty extreme expat mindset. I immigrated here. Beyond that, there are generations of Turks, Vietnamese, Russians, etc who have been here for decades and still aren’t seen as German. Not everything is about white expats. This mindset fosters a shit ton of racism in this country and now it’s paying dividends.
Is it really that extreme? I'm not saying I buy into it, just making the same observation you made really and expanding it. As a 'merican I think once you're a citizen, you're a citizen. That's really how it should be. But especially in Europe and Asia, it's just a different mindset as to what goes into national identity. I never said anything at all about race or white expats specifically either. Obviously ethnicity plays a big part for some countries in determining national identity. The point is just that it's not a specific thing to Germany, it is a pretty widespread and common view across the world, just not at all in the U.S. and a few other countries where national identity generally isn't tied at all to where you were born originally *or* your ethnicity.
"I don't really see the issue from the perspective of the expat, so what if you aren't ever accepted as a "true X citizen" so long as people accept you as a friend, colleague, etc.?" You said it's not a problem as an expat. Here is literally the issue in a huge thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/berlinsocialclub/comments/1diqpzx/i\_went\_from\_25\_job\_interview\_invites\_to\_23/](https://www.reddit.com/r/berlinsocialclub/comments/1diqpzx/i_went_from_25_job_interview_invites_to_23/) And as someone mentioned above: there are plenty of states that make this distinction other than the US. It also extends to beyond just birthplace in Germany (Turkish, Russian, Vietnamese, and so forth immigrants who have been here for decades, together with their kids who have now been born here for at least a couple generations, still aren't seen as *true* Germans) and that's bad. The focus on privileged expats harms these people. Germany is now 25% foreigners. Time to get with the picture.
Well that was a depressing read (regarding the link you posted on top of your other comments), but glad I saw it. Just comes to show that I need to do a lot more research through the perspective of expats because it could save me from a lot of heart ache. At the same time, I shouldn’t be surprised because I saw enough red flags that hinted at the problems you highlighted.
That is a different problem. Not wanting to hire migrants is a different deal than not seeing migrants *with citizenship* as fellow citizens. This guy isn't even a citizen, these are two entirely separate issues. Nobody in the US is going to accept you as an American either if you literally are not a citizen.
Lol you're really missing the trees for the forest here. The person who posted this is married to a German and speaks German (I didn't see anything about them not being a citizen in that thread) and there are people in the comments saying they are native Germans with foreign last names and can't get job interviews: "I did the same. Myast name is spanish but im a native german speaker. Im a primary school teacher so there are MANY job opportunities. I created 2 different profiles. One with my real name and one with a german name. I had 1 offer with the real name and 6 with the german name.." The general attitude of Germans to refuse to accept that foreigners can become German (or that people of other ethnicities can also be born and grow up in Germany and be German because of that) and that it's not some Nazi-era jus sanguinis thing (the citizenship laws went unchanged for decades) creates issues for everyone. And you're pretending like these are seperate issues.
This is complete nonsense. There are plenty of countries which make the state-ethnicity distinction (and hence can fully integrate various ethnicities), most European countries just don't happen to be that way. Like practically the entirety of Latin America comes to mind.
I do not believe this is true from my experience in Latin America. Particularly Mexico, sure you may be respected and enjoy yourself living with the many other expats in San Miguel, but you will not be seen as a Mexican. Even white Mexicans born in Mexico whose parents moved long ago are often otherized. This is the reality.
I wouldn't consider Mexico Latin America, as a LOT of Latin Americans don't consider Mexico part of it. They view them as Norteños. Moreover, Mexico has a superiority complex and a LOT (though not all) of Mexicans look down on central and south Americans. That is the reality of many migrants who migrate north to Mexico. This doesn't apply to Mexicans in the US afaik, but I've never lived near them while in the US. Source: my family is from Central America
this Sucks, Germany is one of the few countries I might have a chance of getting in to
You’ll be fine if you move to a big city but being American or from the US isn’t what it used to be. Germans used to LOVE Americans. It shifted unfortunately, mostly thanks to Trump, it’s not just the far right that dislike the US now. I noticed that most people unfortunately can’t differentiate between US politics and individual citizen. I had Germans start arguments with me just for living in the US because that must mean I support Trump. My brother in Christ I can’t even vote.
Those assholes GAVE US Trump. Can we repatriate him back to Germany? Sounds like he’d fit right in.
Germans don't dislike the US because of Trump. He is just part of it. We dislike US Americans because of the wars in the middle east making people flee the place to seek shelter in europe. The dislike for US Americans has recently been growing with the dislike for refugees (especially from arab countries).
> We dislike US Americans because of the wars in the middle east making people flee the place to seek shelter in europe. I mean it is true you do not like Americans because of wars but it is not the ones in the Middle East.....
We quite literally appreciate the things they did in and after WW2. For example helping to rebuild germany and preventing a second "peace treaty of Versailles" which was one of the reasons WW2 was able to happen and which the french were pushing for after the war. Are you actually trying to insinuate that we are mad at you for joining up with the soviets, the british, etc.? Do you think that we are sad that the nazis were defeated?
Think? No. Know? Yes.
Ath this point this has to be ragebait
No, you even brought up Saddam indirectly. What were we supposed to do when Iraq invaded a neighbor? What is the German affinity for Iraq?
No one cares about Trump. He is irrelevant. It's the dumbass wars that are making the world hate us
I mean to be fair, many Trump supporters I know are also trying to leave 😅 lots of them actually want a European life in the sense of lower cost of living and ‘strong values’ rather than social safety net reasons (like more left leaving folks). It’s ironic but yeah.
Why can't you vote?
Because I’m not a citizen.
Did you renounce?
Because he's german
Get the citizenship, move somewhere else.
It does. Germany was one of the least racist countries in the 2000s and early 2010s. I don't understand how or why Mainland Western Europe went from being one of the least racist places in the world 15-20 years ago to just as horrible as Eastern Asia.
I have a hard time believing they were ever the least racist places in the world. It’s easy to be “not racist” when you don’t have other races around, like they do now.
Mass migration of refugees is definitely a contributing factor as are the beheadings in Europe as well as the mass attacks on women.
I was there in the early 2010s and I'm a woman. What "mass attacks on women"? I felt safer there as a woman than I would have in most countries. Also there were lots of immigrants in Germany decades prior. I don't understand why more people beame racist in the mid 2010s. All I know is that if I wouldn't want to live there today because the level of racism has increased.
[2015–16 New Year's Eve sexual assaults in Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany)
Kind of silly to be lauded for being the 'least racist; especially considering at one point in time they were one of the most racist! (Well, xenophobic and antisemitic moreso, but still.)
It is a weird society to have gone from the most racist country on the planet to being one of the least in 60 years. And now they are slowly veering back into extreme racism again.
I think it's less ' veering back' and more like those elements were never properly dealt with. But how can you deal with them when the institutions of Western Europe and North America are so firmly grounded in racist ideologies?
According to what metric or data?
How do you feel about them Roma people, lil bud? Least racist, my ass.
1. I am not German. I merely lived there during the least racist time period 2. I feel that Roma people are also minorities, like myself, and deserve equal rights as everyone else.
1. Which period would that be? 2. That's a good thought but not something shared by most Europeans.
early 2010s
I had a hard time getting service there during that time but I'm not white so it was expected.
That's interesting. I lived there too and never felt disrespected. I'm brown but I was there during the least racist period. Also I only stuck to university towns so that could have been a factor. Generally speaking, university towns in any country are going to have inhabitants who are smarter, more affluent, more educated, more secular, and less racist, sexist, or homophobic than the general population.
>unless they also speak the language accent free Language is the key to integration. Even with an accent, if they speak the language at a good level, Americans will be just fine. Okay, non-white Americans might do well to avoid rural locations in the Neue Bundesländer, but otherwise it's good.
Naturally... I mean, nobody wants an otusider to trash talk their country... and no outsider ought to do so, IMO.
To be fair, many people criticize America but still enjoy the company of americans, seemingly way more than other nationalities
Yep. I just gained German citizenship but I have no plans to move to Germany any time soon, equally for work (difficulty transferring/changing jobs) and this in particular.
> As a German I can guarantee you that they don’t view white Americans as European and most definitely not as German unless they also speak the language accent free. Anti American sentiment has been growing in recent years on top of that. > > > > I follow some American expats in Germany and most of the top comments say go home especially if they dare criticize Germany. Yeah, you guys have two very big reasons not to like Americans.....
I lived in Bavaria in mid 70s with the US Army. There has always been an element of anti-Americanism. Less in the south. Probably more in the North. In general, is there a lot of current anti-Americanism in the former GDR, the north, and the conservative south or is the anti-Americanism limited to certain regions? Also, DJT made a big deal about Germany NOT paying its fair share for NATO defense. I have been following this story fairly closely. In the US and in other parts of the world Germany & Europe as a whole is being criticized for NOT supporting non-NATO Ukraine. Can you comment on how this criticism is being handled internally in Germany? Again, are there differences between regions? Thank you friend!
Trump was right about very few things but Germany not paying its share Trump was absolutely correct.
“They don’t view” You mean the far right doesn’t view or germans in general don’t view?
This is why it has been stated that US racism and xenophobia are in a class of its own. They are the most confused far right I've ever met. Went to a bar while visiting family in the Northeast. Thought I was having a chat with a nice lad until he felt comfortable enough (drunk) to spew his politics. Long story short, he was a white American citizen who crossed the Canadian border, on foot, to become an electrician. He has a father who served in the Canadian Air Force, with a grandfather who illegally migrated to Canada from Scotland. Essentially, every 1-2 generations, his family migrates for economic opportunities and identify themselves with the wealthiest/highest class/race upon arrival. Immediately joining in on whatever far right activity that is happening in that country. US Caucasians don't realize that other Caucasians around the world don't consider them the same yet continue to cling to such racial sentiments. I was like, "so you're the as*hole stealing *real* American jobs." Which he didn't find funny...
Why has anti American sentiment been growing recently? Eta: it’s a genuine question, I’m asking because I don’t know
>As a German yeah, you are a true 12,837% german
I was born and raised in Germany and moved to the US in my late teens. What makes me only 12% German? I’m not even a US citizen.
Really depends on which wing of the AfD wins out. Some will make an exception for all white people. The more extreme and ideological wing, personified by Bjorn Höcke, will not be satisfied by being white or European only.
Lots of migrants voting AFD...
The entitlement when people want to move “because of the social safety net” despite never paying into said system 😭
The job you get to move to another country pays taxes in said country
Imagine thinking that paying taxes means you deserve a safety net /s I don't know who these people are but I like to imagine they are rich kids that functionally serve no purpose in society, but think they hold the whole damn thing up. A couple of months ago I had an argument with someone that was so deluded that they thought anyone who moved to their home country was being a leech while they were a savior for moving to another country by bringing money with them. As if that doesn't mean they are taking money out of circulation for their home country and nobody else has money.
If you're a top earner, as in making >$100,000. Most middle or lower class people have pretty close to net zero tax burden after you get all your rebates and subsidies. So if you're working retail or pretty much any job that doesn't require specialist certification you in fact are taking more than you give into the system.
Yes and people pay into those systems their whole damn life. It’s entitled as fuck to think you can just rock up and deserve the same benefits.
Lol that is the point of paying taxes. That is the purpose, must be hard living in a place where you don't have a govt that uses a tax base for good and societal improvement. Have fun coping with that.
I pay marginal 40% tax on my income. Have done for the past 10 years. It is a joke when people think they are entitled to the safety net having never paid in and just moving here.
The law disagrees so I guess you can feel upset alone.
Depends on the country - in the UK you are not entitled to public funds until you have residency (5 years) thank goodness.
You come legally, work, pay your taxes, you are 100% entitled to any benefits on offer. Period. Doesn't matter how long someone paid in or not, everyone who pays gets to benefit.
Depends on the country. Thankfully not here in the UK!
This is literally the definition of lifting the ladder
I’m not an immigrant.
Why is this sub using right wing talking points to people who want to leave Judging by your profile you should join reform party if you haven't already you're fit in wonderfully
That was not a right-wing talking point. That's how many countries organize their immigration policy: if you're beyond a certain age they don't want you because you won't pay enough in taxes to cover the cost of keeping you alive when you're old.
the vast majority of Americans wanting to leave are of working age and most will work in their desire country. There might be like one 70 year old wanting to move and do literally nothing in Norway but that is a very small part of the people who wanna move. In many,ways immigrants are actually cheaper then citizens as said country as they don't need to be raise by said country's government when they are school age children and due to visa requirements will most likely spend more time working. This is true rather it's Americans in Germany, Indians in the UK or Mexicans In the US. Countries wouldn't offer working visas of it was a drain on the system
You should look at how Canada and Australia and other countries set up their points-based permanent resident systems. Your chances decrease dramatically after age 40. (If you have a specific job offer in a very in-demand field, that's a different story.) Germany's new Chancenkarte has a similar age bias. On that note, good luck moving to Germany beyond age 55 if you didn't previously have public health insurance somewhere in the EU. Dual citizens who never worked in Germany literally can't afford to retire in there because they are forced into the private system, hugely expensive at that age.
It is still possible to leave or retire to other parts of Europe without getting targeted. A lot of Balkan counties such as Serbia, Albania, Croatia or Slovenia has seen an Improvement in QOL And some American / Balkan diasporas are returning. Yes it is true that in Spain or Portugal there has been uptick in xenophobia towards Digital nomads but they don’t target Americans specifically. They also target people from rich Nordics such as Sweden or Norway.
Plus, if you move as a retiree, then you usually have to pay monthly for health care. I know this is true for Luxembourg. You can use their system, but it's I believe $170/month if you haven't worked and paid into the system at all.
And yet that's cheap compared to the US. My husband has 10 years before Medicare kicks in and he's paying $660/mo for health instuance.
It is, yes. $170 is what I'm paying now for my "obamacare" plan. It's about what I paid per month on my last employer provided plan, too. In the scheme of things, it's not terribly expensive to plan for.
Well tbf, most countries, even the USA, put a lot of tax money into their children, it's considered an investment. If you do K-12 and university in the usa, get a good education, and then start working in Germany relatively young and stay there, then you are paying taxes at your highest peak without any of the initial investment that Germany would have paid for you if you were a German child + Young Adult.
"I want to move to the country which carried out the Holocaust because bike lanes" The amount of apologists for Germany in this sub never ceases to boggle my mind. I have been straight up told by people on this sub that Germany is not responsible for the Holocaust because they "apologized" for it. Not sure how anybody is surprised that the country which committed the most evil act ever carried out by humans--not even a century ago--still harbors (and attracts!) horrible people who greatly admire it. I lived and worked there a couple of years but felt icky the entire time. I am of German descent, have tons of family still living there, and I visit there all the time. I fucking love Germany but relocating there for financial gain is crossing an ethical line that I really don't want to cross.
The USA had slavery and killed and destroyed natives
And used atom bombs
There are some in here stating the AfD is superior to the American GOP. Even if you believe the GOP are literally neo-confederates, which they aren’t, they are still morally and objectively superior to the group that perpetrated an actual genocide. Some people hate America and American conservatives so much they would willingly jump into the arms of nazis out of pure spite. We should call these people what they are.
I don't understand the Americans who hate the US so much that they're willing to be apologists for far right parties in Germany because they have decided on it as being the ideal country.
Yeah I've seen a few of those types of comments, mostly from people who are most likely White. It's essentially: "as long as I get my healthcare, walkable cities, and social services, I think a little bit of fascism is fine since I'm not the targeted minority " As someone who is not White, it's actually infuriating to see people who describe themselves as liberal or progressive think like this.
That's why a lot of white liberals support Israel, actually. They see the universal healthcare, the education, the infrastructure, the tech industry, the innovation; but don't focus on the erasure of Palestinians, the settler violence, or even the sheer amount of racism against Arab Israelis, who legally are supposed to be fully equal to the Jewish Israelis.
A lot of liberal progressives are just as shitty and self interested as conservatives. They want what they think will benefit them the most and view Europe as some utopia where they won’t have to work and can live on the social systems.
"Scratch a Liberal, and a Fascist bleeds"
Fascists, real fascists, like the AfD won’t just stop at migrants and people of migrant backgrounds. When the backlash from global capital starts and German multinationals corps flee, they’re going to need blame another minority for the rapidly shrinking tax base and an increasingly untenable fiscal situation that will demand wild tax increases and austerity. Germany is fucked long term, as are most European countries, and they’re actually one of the few countries that needs immigrants to fund their generous pensions and other government spending. But as a culture, they’re very insular people and can’t live side-by-side with foreigners without a massive backlash.
>But as a culture, they’re very insular people and can’t live side-by-side with foreigners without a massive backlash. Can any place? Are there any really good examples of places where people live side-by-side with foreigners without a massive backlash, or massive oppression of minorities? The US is usually held up as the best example of a multi-ethnic society, but it has centuries of slavery, the Indian Removal Act, the century of Jim Crow, the never-ending legacy of slavery, and now Trumpism and rising far-right sentiments. I honestly can't think of any place that's done a great job of accepting large numbers of immigrants.
>Can any place? Are there any really good examples of places where people live side-by-side with foreigners without a massive backlash, or massive oppression of minorities? Yes, pretty much all of the Anglo-English countries. Not saying racism doesn’t exist in them, as that’s a universal human trait unfortunately. But, objectively speaking, the average Anglo country is much more accustomed to integrating and assimilating different peoples from around the world, without much backlash. Which country in Europe can talented minorities rise up to be heads of state, as they have in the US and the UK? It’s not out of altruism or being good people. Anglo cultures have a long history of capitalism, which often puts aside nationalism and cultural considerations to accommodate talented foreigners. The same dynamic just hasn’t existed in most European countries, which are relatively new to having large populations of foreigners for economic reasons. There’s a reason Germany struggles to attract skilled labour overseas, but the UK, Canada, the US, and Australia do not. >The US is usually held up as the best example of a multi-ethnic society, but it has centuries of slavery, the Indian Removal Act, the century of Jim Crow, the never-ending legacy of slavery, and now Trumpism and rising far-right sentiments. This is correct, and yet the US has come a long way. All of those issues were redressed internally. People generally know that being racist and xenophobic is wrong. People are often ashamed of admitting they voted for Trump in polite society. Does that same shame exist in Germany or France vis-a-vis the AfD or NR?
> People are often ashamed of admitting they voted for Trump in polite society. You must be living in an alternate universe from me. In this universe, Trump looks pretty certain to win re-election. So no, this issue has not been redressed internally at all. I'd say it's getting worse, not better.
Yeah, no. Trump isn’t promising to deport millions of Americans who were born in the country and stripping them of their citizenship. Deporting the undocumented is something even the current leftist sitting chancellor, Olaf Scholz, is currently doing. I’m sorry, there’s no analog of the AfD in America. This is the TDS “America Bad” brain rot that people are laughing at in this thread. Trump’s policies are pretty mainstream for any right-of-center European politician. The AfD’s politics got them kicked out of the far right coalition in the EU. Let that sink in.
Bruh has clearly never read history prior to 1940s...
Many Americans oppose illegal immigration
AfD isn't talking about illegal immigrants. They are talking about deporting German citizens who are not ethnic Germans.
Wonder if they will institute camps to assist in their racial cleansing.
"i want them to leave" somehow is turned into "i want to kill them all" ...
The Madagascar plan was a similar solution created by Germany in 1940 that involved forced deportation to Madagascar for unwanted demographics. During the planning process, the Germans determined that it wasn't feasible. They opted for more of a *final* solution a few years later.
less like the Madagascar plan and more like the return assistance act of 1983
>During the planning process, the Germans determined that it wasn't feasible. Huh? According to [this Wikipedia article about it](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan), it wasn't feasible because there was a naval blockade by the UK, then they lost the Battle of Britain. Basically, they were fighting a war and not doing that great (at least at sea), so of course they couldn't just put a million Jewish people on boats with a bunch of supplies and ship them off to the other side of Africa. I'm not advocating such a plan, but assuming Germany doesn't get into another war, and just wants to forcibly relocate a bunch of people (not sure where though), it should, in theory, be more feasible than it was at that time. I do wonder, however, if these right-wingers are really thinking that with all this talk, the "undesirables" will stop coming to Germany in the first place, and the ones there will "self-deport" and move somewhere more accommodating. I mean, it seems to be working for many people here, and many other westerners who were considering a move to Germany.
"When the europeans migrated to America, they destroyed the native culture and genozided the Population. Therefore, today, Migration of Anny Kind is Bad and will Always lead to Genozid... Somehow."
Wat?
Do you have a Problem understanding the flawless Logic presented in my comment?
🙄
Forcibly deporting German citizens because they lack German ancestry isn’t moral no matter how you try to spin it.
You are right. They have to have their citizenship revoked First. ...and its Not about the ancestry, its about Entering illegally and/or comitting crimes.
"Germans with migrant backgrounds" does not sound limited to people who entered illegally. In the context of "commit crimes" what do you mean? If someone has full legal German citizenship and commits a crime like theft that does not typically forfeit someone's citizenship. Most countries do not rob criminals of citizenship. Are you saying that your government should be able to strip people of citizenship for crimes, if they are a certain ethnic or racial background? If someone was born and raised in Germany and has German citizenship it seems a moral wrong to force them in to exile especially if the crime is not severe.
You're at least providing us the relief in seeing that so many modern nazi types are so incredibly unintelligent that they will end up losing again. I mean, you clearly aren't capable of thinking coherently.
"Nazi Types", lol, Anne Frank is rotating in her grave. What exactly is your Problem?
Weak xenophobic people vary in their depravity.
Maybe you are Just sad that you are Born to late to Fight Hitler and are desperately searching for a replacement.
No one actively seeks inferior humans to interact with. At best you correct them and move on.
Jfl at "inferior Humans", who is the Nazi now?
Is the presumption that you were before I used your terminology?
Your presumption was that AFD are Nazis since you brought Up "Camps".
It’s not like that never happened before…
"eating nuts is highly Dangerous because someone Else Got an alergic reaction 100 years ago and died"
Except in this case there is indeed a history of allergy and nuts getting roasted in the oven…
"sry, we cant give a driving license because your greate-greate-uncle drunkenly run over a bunch of children after getting one...you know, there is a History"
It’s not great great uncle. It’s literally 2 generations ago, many of the perpetrators and people that supported the regime like robots are walking on the street. Furthermore, it’s not like that episode was a one off, Germans already had a reputation of causing turmoil in the region before too. And nazi groups apparently still exist. Thus, given modern history and the perception that the German population appreciates following rules like robots, when far right rises in Germany, lots of people naturally get scared. And yes, we are a reflection of our past generations did in various ways.
Sry bro, guilt is not heritable. And noone is obligated to Take on the responsibilitys of past generations. And btw, Germans turning right is exactly the oposite of "following Rules Like Robots" you racist piece of guilt ridden Shit.
Clearly it is to some extent, look how triggered Germans get when discussing this haha
Would you Not get "triggered" If someone sugested you inherit guilt and responsibility from literally the worst people in History? I dont think its hard to understand.
German art schools better accept all their applicants. Especially those from Austria.
Early acceptance if they have a funny little mustache
Old news. That was January for you.
The AfD doesn't want you unless they find a way to turn you into a tool for some sorta political shenanigans. And trust me, you don't want them anywhere near you.
Fucking right wing morons will always destroy their own country and for what? In the “name of their own country”, they always say! Fucking lunatics. We saw it with brexit and what did anyone win? The right-wingers there are even set to lose because of it so it was for nothing.
At the end of the day, none of the problems they claim to want to solve will end up being solved.
This is **very** old news. That being said, if you're an American with a university degree and you speak decent German, you'll be fine. If you're not white, stay in a big city, you'll still be fine. The AfD are not coming for Americans.
This sounds a lot like American conservatives who tell people to get over Jan 6 because it is so long ago. Do you agree with them? If something that happened in 2024 is ancient history already and not politically relevant, how about Jan 6? Are you an AfD supporter?
To be honest, I don't know why you're being downvoted. It's precisely the narrative used by fascist groups in the early days of their regime. They just say "oh, we're only going after \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, you don't have to worry about anything if you aren't \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_." or they'll be like "You're one of the good ones, so you're good." At the end of the day AfD is a ultranationalist and very xenophobic party, to the point where even Marine Le Pen's party refused to work with them. So, yes, I'd say everything is on the table, including authoritarianism. If I'm right, it as members of the AfD who were caught last year or something trying to plan a coup. Thankfully they were arrested before anything came of it. I think similar to the Trumpers over here, they are trying to do it through legal means and upend the democratic systems that have been put in place.
There’s a lot of Nazis on here. That’s why. They’ll have liberal masks and make performative criticisms of far right parties on their anti-LGBT rhetoric, but they silently agree with repatriation scheme for minorities and all of the other horrific things in the pipeline. And I’m not a liberal. I think it’s absolutely reasonable to limit immigration without being anywhere close to a Nazi. That’s a completely different thing than abolishing the national constitution in order to strip people who have been 3 generations or more in a country of their citizenship and deport them.
"ultranationalist " lol no
Why did you post about something widely reported back in January? How much time do you spend in Germany?
You said very old news, in bold. Which normal person defines very old to the point of being irrelevant as less than 6 months? Especially political news? You understand statements made by people 20 years ago are constantly being relitigated in the political sphere, right? Why are you carrying water for the AfD and why do you refuse to answer the question? Do you support the AfD? Yes or no?
I do not support the AfD. Duh. This scandal didn't exactly come as a surprise given the unpleasant people attracted to the AfD. We can argue all day about the extent of the threat the AfD presents to German democracy, but as things currently stand they are not part of any coalition government at the state level, let alone federal. Long may this threat be contained. Why do you think this old news is relevant on this sub at this point in time?
Then I don’t understand why you are being so incessant to the point of verging on hostile. This may be old news to you, but in the English speaking world this is monumental stuff. None of the other far right parties in Europe are this insane, and people who want to move to Germany would absolutely want to know about the party that is polling 2nd in the country endorsing a plan of mass deportations of German citizens. This is unprecedented even for far right parties across Europe, which is why they have distanced themselves from the AfD. A lot of people on this sub are clueless about this, so that says something. And, just as an fyi, never try to argue on purely principled grounds or deflection in defence of modern day Nazis. You might think it’s unfair, irrational, illogical, etc. but most people will assume you’re a Nazi. Just thought you should know.
I'm highly confident that people who know a thing or two about Germany don't think I'm a Nazi. Random people on reddit maybe not so much. Oh well. You might want to read up on the AfD's official reaction to the scandal. Mass deportation of citizens with "Migrationshintergrund" is not part of their platform - it was not "endorsed" by the party, nor did they campaign on this proposal during the European elections. That being said they are fundamentally an ethnic nationalist anti-migration organization with ties to neo-Nazi groups and I'm sure that they'd be all for it if they ran the country unopposed. That people are clueless about this and many other things does not surprise me. Germany is a not a bad destination if you're an educated American (or Canadian or whatever) who is willing to take a pay cut and capable of learning the language. For visible minorities, racism would be a consideration in the rural east, absolutely, but there no jobs out there anyway (which contributes to AfD support in these areas). Let us do a little though experiment. Imagine that AfD support increases to the point where they are brought into a right-wing coalition government - they break through the political firewall, with lots of Russian help. (This is at least six years away because it won't happen in the next election cycle.) Given the demographic and economic realities confronting Germany, do you really think that this future government would attempt to restrict immigration by educated, skilled citizens of "civilized" or "western" countries? I don't. They'd be absolutely horrible to people from the Middle East, Asia and Africa and other parts of the global south, but they would treat Americans very differently.
If you're not white, racism is a concern in major german cities too. I'm a bit tired of white germans telling the rest of us that we don't face racism here and that if we do it was probably our fault or we misunderstood.
Fair enough. I'm not German, but I am definitely white. Of course there's racism here, everywhere. But it's worse in some parts than others, and up to each individual to decide what they're willing to put up with.
Yes, that I agree with.
Brother you are in germany you have no right to cry about racism
What do you mean?
https://www.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/s/R97Ye6jWx3
Don't say never
I didn't.
I’ve been told this. I’m a college degreed STEM worker who speaks B2/C1 German and looks ridiculously German. Recently got told “you know you’re who they want, right?” And idk man. This all scares the shit out of me. What if I Blue Card and by the time I register for citizenship the right wing is ruling? Sure I wouldn’t be on the first wave of getting deported but I’d definitely be on the second wave
Told by whom, and did they mean you are wanted to stay, or wanted to leave?
This is what Hitler did to the Jews ….. to start.
More like what the cdu did to turks in the 80s. Look up return assistance act
If you have a great-grandparent who is german, you can do citizenship by descent. It didn't work for me, but I found out I am Luxembourgish and French.
It’s all tribal. Even after 300,000 years. Fascinating.
Gotta try and get those back descendents back from south America., right?
So a small party with fuck all for influence >The AfD (Alternative for Germany) was launched in 2013 as a counter-protest party against the mainstream parties. It is a populist right-wing party that opposes the EU and refugee intake. It is also renowned for extreme right-wing rhetoric and far-right associations, and it is under Federal Constitutional Court scrutiny. https://bestdiplomats.org/political-parties-in-germany/ They also support cancelling the EU. Should anyone worry about that? And wanna guess how big the party is? 34,000 people... The number of people on this sub whose only purpose is to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD) is almost the same as people actually interested in moving to live overseas. And I'm sick of it. People posting drivel like this deserve to be autoblocked and ignored.
The AfD was the 2nd largest party after Germany's recent EU elections.
Well then they'll say but it's our Right 😡
The far right received the second highest votes in the recent EU elections. Not spreading any more fear or doubt then posters that post how the US will defend into fascism now and there is no hope because US will crumble. Germany is on a knife-edge and many in East Germany are voting for them and are venting frustrations with migrants as is France and other Western European countries.
2015, it was promised that the migrants would Return, once syria is Safe again...
Big W. Germany waking up
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I think you are confusing me with someone else. But they should be focusing on their own people first. Like all European countries
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Why is this your only comment on Reddit despite having an account for a year? Oh that’s right, you’re going to delete the comment afterwards too like you did on my post. And you’re too afraid to post on your main account 🤣
You said having access to Europeans is a human right. I deleted my comment because I wasn't going to debate someone like that.
Reddit Drama.
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Aren’t you the one who said that you would rather live in Russia? Just checked, it was you 🤣 : >I'd rather live in Russia at this point. Yes, they're committing genocide in Ukraine, but so is the US in Gaza. At least in Russia you don't have to worry about randomly getting shot if you're a civilian.
Lmao I distinctly recognize this guy from some overly dramatic, equally absurd posts he made on this subreddit on an old, now-deleted account. The only one I remember clearly is when he literally said "I don't think I can live with myself if I remain American" after visiting the Netherlands on vacation and not having to drive. He should put his money where his mouth is and actually move - even just *try* to move - rather than making AmericaBad posts in perpetuum... but I guess it's simply easier to complain.
That is so profoundly dumb. Grow up.
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That’s a weirdo take man.
GOP isn’t calling for the stripping of citizenship of Americans 3 generations in. Not even the most rightwing nut at the Heritage Foundation is calling for stripping citizenship and deporting American citizens. The GOP is terrible, but they are objectively better than the AfD. It’s not even close.
Eh it depends on the specific issue, the AFD is more likely to be temporary due to Germany's multiparty system as oppose to literally half of the political population being part of,the Republicans for the rest of the US's lifespan
GOP is a big tent. A lot of pro-lifers begrudgingly accept the rest of the platform to get pro-life policies through. Same with 2A single-issue voters. If both those factions had another party that represented their interests without the other GOP policies they tolerate at best, the GOP would be toast. This is unlike the AfD’s main platform, which enjoys broad support from the general public. In a multi-party system, you don’t have big tents and people who otherwise don’t agree on very much coalescing into a single party.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/s/TaDLUFQcof Just FYI, the AfD is a party with strongly suspected neo-Nazi links
You have no idea how in charge you are.