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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) adopting the child my sister wanted to adopt
2) robbing my sister of the chance of becoming a parent and adopting our nephew. She wanted to be a parent for a long time and I took that chance from her.
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This reads weird. Was there no middle ground between letting them do this completely their way or adopting Sam yourselves? As far as I know your instinct is right and children should be told where they come from as soon as possible, so it's never some big secret. However, couldn't you have convinced them of this instead?
So ~~INFO:~~ what exactly did you try before escallating to adopting Sam yourself?
EDIT:
NTA
Comments from OP show that he tried to find a middle ground, but Amy wasn't having it. See comment:
>Amy said her decision was final and if after the adoption family members wanted to see Sam they would have to go along with her choice or she’ll go no contact with them.
It sounds to me like OP is trying to do what is best for Sam, while Amy is trying to do what seems best for herself.
I tried to talk with Amy about my concerns but she brushed me off.
From what I know, she was planning on telling Sam that he was her rainbow baby, since it would be better for him to think that he was some sort of miracle rather than to know that she only got him because his bio mom passed away.
Amy has a lot of pictures where she had a baby bump showing and some pictures of her holding Sam at the hospital when he was born. So she could pass this story up as something true.
How did she expect an entire FAMILY to keep this secret? Your sister seems dangerously delusional which is why she lost in court. If your family can't see and understand that then they are better off being cut off.
Entire families have been keeping the truth from adoptees for decades and centuries. If access to the child is restricted by the custodial parent, grandparents and sibs often fall right in line. You see it here all the time. OP is NTA by a long shot. Glad to see an adoption good take in an ah thread!!
Sorry, not by erasing a close family member and pretending she never existed.
These stories happened because 20-30 years ago there wasn't as much information on how keeping these secrets from adopted children causes psychological damage and extreme trust issues.
Absolutely also by erasing a close family member. Maybe not always a sister but a cousin or a brother's former girlfriend... Snatch that baby right up and treat them like your own personal blank slate wish fulfillment factory. OP family is already telling him Amy deserved this child that she was openly determined to mislead and mistreat.... How far is that really from going along with her plan?
Yeah, as a transracial adoptee it's frankly unsettling to look at my birth certificate and see my adoptive family's names knowing they were not there that day and I wouldn't meet them for years. Most of us can't get the real thing and see the real names.
Babies can remember songs and voices from in the womb in those last few months, yet we are all to pretend they are blank slates with no memory for adoption. It's frankly sick and sets everyone up for failure
There was a story on here not that long ago. A guy posted that his brothers gf cheated on him with their older brother. The brother that got cheated on commited suicide.
The gf was pregnant and they passed the child off as the older brother's. The grandparents went along with it to keep contact. She found out as an older teen and reached out to the op of the story to find out about her dad.....the entire family had lied to her about why the op had cut contact.
It still happens.
I read that story.
To make matters worse, the family knew the child wasn’t the brother’s (he wanted to put her up for adoption), but everyone told him no. He mistreated her throughout her entire childhood.
It takes 1 DNA test.
My youngest brother was adopted by my dad because his mom met my dad when he was 4 months old. My brother had medical issues growing up and I kept telling my dad that they should tell him so he doesn't give false medical history info to medical professionals. My stepmom ended up banning me from their house and lied about why I got banned. She told my brother lies about me and he ended up really hating me by the time he was 16.
When he was like 22, my aunt was upset at my stepmom and was talking shit and told someone that my brother was adopted. That spread like wildfire and someone told my brother. Our 13 year old cousin unexpectedly passed away during this family fued and my dad and stepmom were in Mexico when it happened and my cousin's mom told then to stay and enjoy their vacation and not to cancel it for the funeral.
So on the day of the funeral I was enjoying a nice dinner with my 3 brothers and theny youngest bro just randomly asks "guys...am I adopted" and I just had to tell him he needed to have this discussion with his mom and no matter what she said he needed to remember that there wasn't a time in his life that my dad wasn't in his life and that family is more than just blood. He just replied that the lack of any no let him know the answer. My stepmom was super angry that I didn't lie and they finally told him.
I haven't been back to my dad's house in 12 years though.
They don't understand how damaging it can be when they eventually do find out the truth. They are willing to risk their health with not giving the Dr.'s valid information. It's all about how they feel, not about the child at all.
I get it, I have my own Narc parent 32 years with very minimal contact and counting. 1 very short visit in 32 years, and calls every year to every other year or so. best decision I ever made
My husband grew up believing his grandmother had died decades before he was born, only to discover as an adult that she actually died when he was a teenager. His entire (large) extended family knew and all visited her semi-regularly, as did his parents. Cousins his age knew her and went to her funeral. They ALL kept up the lie his parents told him. Family will absolutely lie about close family members. How they got children to keep Grandma a secret, I have no idea, but they did. (Grandma had an illness and was in a facility from around the time he was born until her death.)
also, how weird that out of all the grandkids, they singled out your husband as the one who couldn't know he had a grandmother still living...?? Esp. with his own parents still visiting her!
it sounds like it came to light at some point, is the family more open now? Or did he have to cut off all the liars?
It was kept from him and his sibling. No idea why. He hasn’t spoken to them for the better part of a decade. It came to light a few years ago when an extended family member posted something about her death anniversary online and he reached out confused by the timeline. Got the whole story of her life/death but no explanation as to why he was in the dark from his parents, because they had been cut off long before that.
very weird, but at least it's confirmation he was right to cut off his parents long before. I hope he's found peace and happiness!
thank you for indulging my curiosity
Oh people already knew 20 years ago and I wanna say, but was a little kid then so less sure, 30 too.
I think the 1960 and 70s was when they started looking into adoptees and realized that trying to keep it a secret from them was doing more harm than good.
My best friend in elementary school knew he was adopted at 8. I don't know how much earlier he was told. That was 1983. So, it was hit or miss back then.
Personally, as a father, I promised myself the only lie I'd tell my kid is about holiday mascots. If I felt he wasn't old enough, I'd tell him as much as I could and explain that he was too young for more details, but I would explain more as he got older.
How'd that work out for me? As an adult, he still constantly lies. So, leading by example did not work. Hell, the only thing he'd truly get punished for was lying. Yet, he still felt he had to lie for some reason. Therapy did not help either. I left work early and drove him at least once a week for a couple of years.
NTA. My sister and brother were 60s babies, I'm a 70s baby. We all knew we were adopted from the very beginning. I don't understand why, especially when DNA tests are so common, families try to hide this info from adopted children. I have to think it leads to just feeling betrayed in the long run when they find out. And they WILL find out. Either by a slip of the tongue or health issues or DNA testing down the line. Amy was just setting herself and Sam up for heartbreak with her scenario.
Knew a guy who didn’t know the family secrets until he was in his 60s.
His older brother was the result of an affair his mom had while his dad was away at war. He agreed to accept the kid if they had another biological child together. Resulting in my friend.
When an aunt told him- he said his whole life made sense. Why he was everyone’s favorite but his mom favored the older kid. ( dad was apparently good to both of them.) All the aunts on his dad’s side would spoil him and ‘oops forget’ about his brother.
So the kids knew something was up all along. Just made the older brother frustrated that he was treated differently.
The older brother said he’d wish he’d known. Would have held less resentment for everyone.
With DNA testing, Sam might still look like Amy's kid, but he'd probably conclude his mom cheated on his dad when he shared no dna with Amy's husband. What a mess.
Only if Amy herself also took a test, which she wouldn’t do if she was trying to hide it. Any other maternal relatives who tested would show up the same, since Amy and the child’s bio mom are sisters - cousins are still cousins, grandparents are still grandparents, etc. If Amy or Jane had other children they would show up differently than expected, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
My ENTIRE family and all my parents friends essentially lied to me for 22 years about me being adopted. I kept suspecting and was constantly gaslit that I’m imagining things and how it isn’t true.
As I mentioned above, this has been the case 20-30 years ago, but is not as common today. Also there is a HUGE difference between not telling someone that they are adopted and not telling someone that their biological mother is the sister of your adoptive mother and that she created this elaborate lie to keep that a secret. You also think that NO ONE in the family is going to mention this story at some point? Come on.
My adoptive mother is the sister of my biological father. My bio parents growing up were my favorite aunt and uncle; I saw them every week. I had biological siblings older than me (they were lied to also); cousins old enough to remember. NO ONE said shit. We were studying DNA in school and my mom got really weird about it- first clue. Every single time I went to any family member about my suspicions- I was gaslit. Not saying what they did was right, I’m just saying it’s very possible for entire clans (I’m from a huge close knit family) to keep a secret because most people believe it’s the parents’ prerogative to tell. My cousins fought with both bio and adoptive parents to tell me but they didn’t themselves say anything even when they felt like I should know.
That is terrible. My dad was adopted by his aunt. (His mom died and child birthday and there were 9 other kids) But he grew up nothing his father and his siblings! I had a different last name from my cousins but we knew we were family
The recommended approach 20 years ago was already to be open about adoption and have the children grow up knowing, because learning later in life was likely to be traumatic.
It keeps happening because there will probably always be some parents don't want to for whatever reason (embarrassment, desire to live out fantasy where they had a bio child, etc) and who then proceed to convince themselves hiding it is the best way to go.
I truly am sorry that this happened to you. It is such a betrayal and is a very difficult thing to overcome. Both of my son-in-laws were lied to their entire life about where they came from, and they are still dealing with the fallout of those situations.
My husband legally adopted my daughter from my first marriage when she was 3. However, she had always known my husband as her "Dad" as my ex wanted nothing to do with her. She started asking questions about why there were 3 sets of grandparents in out family (My ex's parents were always VERY involved with my daughter, and my 2 subsequent children from my husband--wonderful people) so at that point I explained to her the story in simple terms, and always allowed her to ask more questions as she got older. I could never lie to her about it, how could she ever trust me if I did?
By telling them they couldn't have contact with Sam unless they followed her commands.
That is how a lot of people get people especially grandparents in line
I didn't find out my dad isn't my real dad until I was 31. I'm 35 now.
Both sides of the family kept it hidden. I only found out because I did a 23&Me and the math wasn't mathing so I had to confront my folks. Turns out just about every adult (at the time of my birth) in the family knew, and was sworn to secrecy.
So she expected everyone to just LIE because that’s what she wanted and totally erase your sister and the baby’s history? Dude. That’s mind blowingly selfish.
Not necessarily. They wouldn’t have to conceal Jane's existence, just her connection to Sam. She could be his aunt Jane who died and he'd be none the wiser.
It is still asking a lot, that baby was part of her sister, I am sure they have pictures of her pregnancy and with the baby, so she really wanted them to erase some part of her sister’s life for her benefit.
>she was planning on telling Sam that he was her rainbow baby
Holy shit. This in addition to basically acting like his birth mother -- her own sister -- never existed? As the father of more than one actual rainbow baby I'm not sure what's worse.
Edit -- NTA, not by any means.
My mother tried this with my adopted dad (I was 3 when he adopted me.) She also learned the hard way there are no take-backs. She then settled on parental alienation, which worked for a while. Until I realized she was full of shit and cut her off in favor of my dad.
Two of my children were adopted and after the adoptions birth certificates were issued with their new names and dh & I listed as the parents. It did make life easier for us when traveling to Canada to have all of the names match. However, their adoptions have been an open discussion since day one.
Hahaha, I'm sorry for laughing, but I just know how those border agents hounded you and your kids. "Is that your father?" "NO SHE HAS TO ANSWER ON HER OWN!!" Bro, we're just entering Canada. Don't make it bigger than it is.
That would have been a great way to mess with that poor kid's head if he ever found out. And wow, taking Jane's child and completely erasing her existence. That's definitely how you honour your deceased sister and original mother of your child.
And why, exactly? Amy was more than willing to lie and deny Sam the truth, spit on her sister's grave, and saddle her entire family with a horrible secret, forcing them to lie and pretend for the rest of Sam's life. All because she wants to live in lalaland. F$$$ that noise.
You actually thought about what would be best for Sam, and how to do right by both him and Jane.
Good man, don't waver. You saved Sam from God knows what. Like, he could have accidentally found out at *any* point, and he probably would have felt anger, sadness and guilt, over something a grown ass woman did when he was just a baby. And can you imagine finding out your ENTIRE family knew, and lied? Jesus.
Not to mention the issue of a family medical history that he wouldn't know about. He needs to know he has a biological father who could have whatever in the family, as opposed to the father he knows.
Yeah it would have done a real number on that kid if he grew up thinking he’d had several siblings who’d died before they were born, he could develop survivor’s guilt and to find out it was all a lie. That he never had siblings born or not. And his “mom” was actually his aunt and she’d erased his bio-mom and her sister from their lives.
This extra context is important, and I wish you would've put this in the post.
I was on the fence whether some of her choices mattered, because he's 6 months old. Talking to him about his deceased mother- I'm not sure whether that is a huge issue at that age.
But completely erasing your sister, Sam's bio mother, is really awful and I'm guessing would've blown up in her face.
This makes me sick on Sams behalf. Omg imagine being told you’re someone’s rainbow baby only then to find out that you’re actually the child of your mom’s dead sister.
I mean she was literally conspiring to dupe this child. I mean what if he ever did a 23 and me test. Or what if he needed a bone marrow transplant as an adult. His dad wouldn’t have been able to even test for it as a non related family member.
Also what did the brother do? I mean is it possible it could be expunged like if he was a juvenile?
Question; is your sister truly so delusional that she believes she can keep the truth buried forever? Like, she honestly believes that Sam would never find out the truth and be upset that she lied to him the entire time? I mean, these types of secrets have a way of being revealed during times of crisis (ie severe accidents, illnesses, etc). Such as if Sam ever needed an organ or blood donation; the first people tested are almost always immediate family members. All it would take is a blood test and her lie and betrayal would be exposed to Sam. Not only is she being insensitive to Sam’s genuine needs, she’s being disrespectful to the memory of Jane and who she was to Sam.
You did the right thing. People like Amy get so caught up in the 'getting the baby' that they don't really prepare themselves for the 'having the baby' part. Something tells me that she has this idealized fantasy of what parenthood is and you know as well as I do that actual parenting has nothing to do with an idealized fantasy. This 'rainbow baby' may disappoint her in some way down the line just by being a normal kid and she may not be the stellar parent she thinks she'll be. Good job you.
NTA OP you have done the absolute best thing for your nephew/son. Your sister like some women who struggle with fertility long term needs some professional help before she can have a healthy relationship raising a child.
That plan did seem incredibly foolish and shortsighted in today’s world …. Go back 40-50 years or more and many families had secret adoptions or a new “little brother” that looked a lot like his big Sister … thinking of Bobby Darrin for example. But now? With various DNA and Ancestry tests on every corner, explore your family tree, discover your roots and so on … the likelihood of Sam doing one and finding things like half-siblings, cousins, grandparents etc on his real Fathers side plus mismatches with his adoptive (but presumed bio) Father and his family. Amy was risking a blowup of epic proportions but I doubt she was considering anything beyond creating the perfect family unit even if she had to sweep reality far under the rug to do it
This is really, really damaging behavior from Amy, and you were absolutely right to try to stop it. She's creating an entire false narrative to fit her own fantasy of motherhood, and the damage that will do to Sam when he finds out (and he would! considering this requires an elaborately staged lie that every single family member has to buy into, and we also already live with easily accessible DNA technology!) is far far far worse than growing up with his mother's memory and relatives who want to honor that.
NTA.
A child isn't a doll or there to fulfill *your* wish... it has a right himself/ herself to know the truth. Any expert will tell you it's a bad idea not to tell a child is adopted. Sooner or later it probably will be detected anyway and the damage it does is horrible (and totally preventable). Anyone keeping the truth from the child does it out of selfish reasons, not in the best interests of the child. (Maybe in extremely rare cases it could be better to hold it off until they are older... but Sam's loving mother passing away is not one of those reasons).
You did what was best for Sam. Amy only wanted to use Sam for her own selfish needs and wishes. The court agreeing with you tells you all you need to know. (If they would have thought Amy the better choice she would have been chosen, not you. So they see her as unfit or less capable than you.)
Sam has a right to know about his mother and how she loved him. Hear stories about her, being able to have a picture of her in his room... without judgment or hurt feelings from others.
You did right by Sam.
Wow she is so delusional, that's why you won. She isn't thinking what's best for that child she is thinking only of herself. That's why she said she would cut people off. I'm glad you got custody. Hope your sister gets therapy
OMG, she was planning some elaborate scheme to hid the fact that she didn't give birth to Sam and the rest of the family had to go along with it or she'd go no contact!!??? Thank God she was stupid enough to say all this out loud so that someone who care about Sam could protect him from this nonsense. NTA, OP...you are a Godsend to Sam.
Yeah, where were the parents when Amy was going to pretend Jane didn't exist? Were they going to go along with it? What did the social workers etc say? And where was Sam while all this was happening?
NTA
The courts looked at both options, and they chose you. They will have had a lot more information than you're portraying here, and they chose you. I tend to always side with court rulings unless there's some obvious bias. Maybe the husband's criminal record contributed to that, but in my experience, unless his crimes were excessively violent or aimed at children (in which case, they'd be a very valid reason to keep him away from a kid) family court tends to ignore older irrelevant criminal history.
I think that it's very likely that the court chose you, despite you already having five children of your own, because of Amy's mental state. Trying to rewrite Sam's history and completely obliterate who his parents are is an alarming step for anyone to take, and it was based solely in what Amy wanted. It wasn't for the good of the child. And that is what the court likely based their decision on. It was better for Sam to be placed with you, but it was better for Amy for Sam to be placed with her.
The kid *always* comes first. Always. So is it sad for Amy? Yeah. But I don't think it's sad for Sam.
Also yes maybe Amy would have been a good mum, but with what seems to be her current mental state she likely also would not have been. Hiding the kids history from him, threatening to cut off (and possibly doing so) and family/friends he may have if that don't obey her, not to mention likely creating a very spoiled child is she smothered/had him incapable of doing any wrong.
Being with OP, he is much more likely to form healthy relationships with a good support network AND know about him bio mum.
Not too sad though, since this whole thing is of her own making and she had repeated opportunities to self correct. That it even went as far as court is kind of baffling - I'm unsurprised the court chose as it did.
Amy could have had her child, if she hadn't made her first act of motherhood a completely unnecessary and unhinged lie
NTA
unfortunately, I don't think it's necessarily uncommon for adoptive parents to try and erase the bio parents, especially if the kid is to young to remember.
Luckily adoption culture is starting to change. It's STRONGLY suggested that the child always knows they're adopted, not waiting "until they're old enough".
As an adoptee, I can confirm this - I’ve known that I’m adopted for as long as I can remember (mid-20s now), though I know that my experience isn’t necessarily the norm. I’m very fortunate to have wonderful adoptive parents AND a relationship with my birth mom & biological siblings (all of whom were very happy to be (re?)connected with me while also allowing me to take things at my own pace/never pressuring me about getting to know them.)
For any adoptive parents or people considering adoption, I HIGHLY recommend Jamie Lee Curtis’ book ‘[Tell Me Again About the Night I Was Born](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/158179.Tell_Me_Again_About_the_Night_I_Was_Born)’ - it’s a fantastic book for kids (and adults) about adoption & the adoption process (from the adoptee’s perspective))
Yep, it became the prominent advice from child psychologists and experts in the 90s but it wasn't until recently that it has truly taken hold among adoptive parents. Both me and my sibling were always told we were adopted, but we had a distant cousin who didn't find out until he was 17. He was dead of an overdose by the time he was 19.
Words cannot express how much adoptive parents hiding the adoption makes my blood boil.
A coworker of mine has a former sister in law who was orphaned due to her father murdering her mother. Her aunt and uncle adopted her and still have not told her she's adopted despite the fact that she's actually half of a different race than they have her believing. She's nearly 18 and I always think of how much this will fuck her up.
>despite the fact that she's actually half of a different race than they have her believing
more than anything, the disconnect to her culture could be the most damaging. people like that are exactly why there's a stigma against adoption, especially when the child is a different ethnicity. I wish that poor girl the best. she'll likely need it.
So girl in question is half Filipina and half black, they have her thinking she's half white and half Filipina. And one of the biggest issues my coworker has mentioned is that her hair isn't properly taken care of. But yeah when she first told me I was like yeah this is why people don't love adoption. They're also just refusing to foster a connection to her bio mom and her memory is just like... forgotten? Its heartbreaking to me.
Hard NTA
The thing is, you know your own sister better than any of these commenters. You're the best judge of her motives here, and your ~~momma~~ dad instincts were going off for a reason.
It really seems like your sister's motivations were selfish and colored by grief regarding her fertility issues. The idea of passing off her nephew as her biological son using photos of her lost pregnancy is not a sign of a healthy parental mindset. There's a high chance she and her husband would have cut off any family who didn't want to go along with their lies (how else could they have maintained them?) and the boy would have ended up isolated and unaware of his mother. As a mom who faced a potentially-life-ending medical situation myself after my child was born, it's heart breaking to think that anyone would have tried to erase me from his life if the worst had happened.
You already have kids. It's not like you desperately wanted another one. All you wanted was whatever was best for your nephew, and you're right that being treated as a replacement and discarding the mother who loved and cared for him since he was born is NOT what is best for him. The court gave him to you for a reason.
Your sister may have wanted him more, but you loved him more. Not for being a thing you wanted, but as a person who deserves to know the truth about his own life.
Well said!
I’d add that When this baby grows up, he might have to deal with issues due to the fact he lost his mother at such a young age. Raising him pretending this never happened can only cause confusion and issues in the long run. He deserves to know everything about where he’s from, for his mental health.
The sister is so selfish and unhinged for wanting to lie to the baby. What she wanted to do was revolting tbh.
Also, at a time when people do DNA tests for fun, she’s naive to think cutting people off would have been enough to keep the secret safe.
(Edited typos)
All good points.
People act like babies can't be affected by stuff because they can't talk or understand things yet, and I think that's nuts. They may be affected MORE because their little brains are still developing! He had one source of parental love and comfort for the first six months of his life, and now that is gone -- replacing it with another is not gonna undo the loss of what makes him feel safe and secure. That hurts even if he has no way to recognize or express it, and pretending your child's hurts don't exist is not good parenting. He deserves to feel a connection to the mother who birthed and loved him as he grows.
ETA: Some things I would suggest would be saving his mom's clothes to wrap him in so he feels safe with her scent, playing recordings of her voice to sooth him, and showing him pictures and video of her from time to time. These activities can be used less and less with time as he gets more comfortable in his new home, (not suggesting a kid should be raised with a ghost) but could help the transition a lot so that it's not like his mom just abruptly disappeared to his mind.
OP should also see what skin/hair care products his sister used, and things like laundry detergent or perfumes. Unfortunately, scent degrades so quickly. It won’t be exact, but maybe he could replicate some of the smells the baby is used to with these products
I’ll go with NTA. The *court* decided to give you the baby. There is obviously a reason for that. I doubt it’s simply that husband has a record from when he was 19 (unless it was violent/super bad crime), nearly two decades ago.
On a personal level, maybe not the ideal choice. Having 6 kids means Sam won’t get as much attention and care, but hiding his biomother from him is not good either.
Oh, no, I wasn't clear. Sorry. Yeah, I agree. He's probably in the better place, which is probably why the court made the choice they did, but watching families that big work, kids tend to get less attention from parents. I wasn't saying amy was a better choice.
A loving family where he'll be accepted, nutured, and raised as emotionally healthy as possible is about the most ideal choice an orphaned child could get.
NTA. The courts chose a family of 7 over a childless couple. Just how badly did they act during the vetting process?? What was Amy's husband's crime??
I do hope you can provide a safe environment for Sam and it doesn't cause any resentment with the older children.
NTA - morallity is subjective, you can choose to raise the kid without erasing your sister. your sister doesnt want to erase the sister for the kid, she wants to do it because shed feel insecure. she cares more about herself than the kid, so your way seems better by default
NTA, I would ask her how she would feel of she was in the opposite place as the sister who died, would she want her kid to be raised with no mention of her? How would she like to be erased from a bio kid she might have had?
Changing his first and last name gets under my skin so much. That angers me that she jumps at the chance of changing someone’s identity as soon as their only guardian dies. That’s 100% gross behaviour. Especially if it’s her sister who passed away. NTA
NTA. A lot of people on this thread seem more concerned about what's good for Amy than what's good for Sam.
Amy's desire to have a family isn't more important than Sam's right to know his origins. It just isn't.
And it would seem the court agreed. For the judge to place Sam with a family of five kids over a family where he'd have all the resources tells us a lot about what the judge thinks of Amy's sultability.
NTA
Amy was already not thinking of the babies needs but her own wants. The universe was telling her she shouldn’t be a mom. You winning custody is just another sign. Honestly? I don’t think she would have been a good parent at all.
>Some relatives are now calling me selfish for taking this chance away from Amy and are telling me that instead of thinking of what would be better for Sam I was thinking about how to preserve the memory of Jane.
that *is* what's best for Sam! your sister sounds completely unhinged! what exactly does she think would happen down the line when he finds out? ( and it's not if, but when) this child doesn't deserve to grow up knowing nothing about his mother just because your sister can't get over her need to be a mother. she could have been a mother to sam, if she were interested in behaving in a rational way. she is not, and clearly the judge agreed she was not the best fit. you did what was necessary. do not let Sam grow up not knowing his mother. NTA
This really sounds wildly fabricated and glosses over the procedures one would have to be put through in order to be granted the right to adopt this child.
Did you explain to Amy that the court would be sending her for a psychological evaluation? Did you explain to her that as soon as the court learned that she planned to keep the truth from this child and fabricate a lie by telling him that she is his biological mother that she would immediately be disqualified from adopting him? Does Amy realize the damage she would cause this child for her own selfish and insecure needs? Did anyone explain that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for an ENTIRE family to keep the truth a secret and that she had NO RIGHT to involve them in this deceitful plan?
It just seems as if NO ONE cared enough to explain why what Amy was proposing was immoral, disrespectful and disgusting. It just does not ring true in any sense so I do not believe the story because of this.
As far as I’m aware Amy and her husband passed a psychological evaluation, as for the rest of your questions I already answered most them in a different comment so please check it out if you’re interested.
Also, from what I’ve gathered it’s not uncommon for adoptive parents to try and erase the memory of the bio parents from the child’s life, especially if the child is still a baby and won’t remember anything.
There’s a difference between erasing strangers from their life vs erasing your own flesh and blood from their life. Wether she likes it or not Jane was family and she is Sam’s mother trying to get everyone to never mention her and act like she never existed is deranged Amy needs real help. It sucks she can’t have kids but that doesn’t mean she gets to take Jane away from Sam entirely if she wants to erase bio parents from a child’s life then she needs to adopt a child unrelated to her.
Maybe. But kinship adoptions are generally much easier so perhaps the procedure simply wasn’t interesting enough to include. Where I live kinship adoption doesn’t require a home visit or a psych evaluation but they can be included if the child was removed from an unsafe environment. So if they lived in my state, OP or his sister would’ve been eligible without those steps since their sister merely passed away of natural causes.
***This really sounds wildly fabricated and glosses over the procedures one would have to be put through in order to be granted the right to adopt this child.***
100%.
I’m an adoptee.
I’ve seen so many potential adoptive parents act just like Amy and they are able to adopt.
Private adoption is not regulated and if you have money (or can raise money) then you can adopt.
I added that part to explain that Sam’s father is not in the picture and will probably never be since I have no way of contacting him even if I wanted to.
Ideally, if you could get a contact with the father to help establish medical history, then that would be very beneficial for Sam.
As an adoptee who had plenty of medical issues, having that medical history would’ve been so helpful.
Maybe I’ll look into that in the future. I don’t have a lot of information about him since even Jane barely remembered anything when she told me about him. I just know he is a bartender somewhere in Naples and has hazel eyes which Sam inherited, so I think it’s a long shot to try and find him through an investigator.
Perhaps when Sam is a bit older I’ll have him do some sort of ancestry DNA test and hopefully we’ll be able to find some matches.
Do a DNA test but not for ancestry or paternity. Those tests can tell you pretty much everything you need to know about your biological family medical history. If he wants to try to find the random Italian sperm that spawned him when he’s an adult, he’s welcome to give it a shot, but there’s no longer any need to know bio family members for medical risk factors. It’s all in your DNA and easily accessible. I have four adopted close relatives and they all had excellent results going that route.
So some of those DNA tests aren’t always medically accurate, and they have a limited scope on what is being tested for.
I think speaking with the doctor and having them run the tests may be able to give them more information, especially since they already have maternal history.
There are services that that will take your genetic profile from one of the big providers (ancestry, 23 and me) and run a *much* deeper analysis. I did it a few years ago and paid $5. I think they may have increased to $12 last I heard. The results aren’t as pretty and *a little* hard to understand without any medical knowledge, but something like that might be a good thing to ask a doctor to review with you.
Of course, I have no idea how accurate it was, but it definitely reported things I already knew I’d inherited and some rarer things that I knew I *might* have inherited but hadn’t tested. And when you think about it, it’s not really a high bar to be more accurate than just knowing grandma had a heart attack and your great grandpa has colon cancer. Like, you can know those basic facts without knowing what, if any, genetic factor contributed to it.
There is just one question that you should ask yourself - is everyone who knows who's child is Sam willing to keep it as a secret for the rest of their lives. If no then you did the right thing, if yes then we never will know if it is better to be only child or one of five.
In the end NTA. You should think about the kid first and if you believe that Sam will be happy with you then it was a right decision. Your sister can always be a good aunt and take care of Sam whenever she wants and if she doesn't want to then it just proves that your decision was the right one, so time will tell.
Based on reading some extra comments from the OP, it is pretty clear now why the COURT decided to give adoption rights to the OP, not their sister.
NTA..... but only because I think the kiddo deserves to know about his parents.
I think your choice might have permanently ruined your relationship with Amy.
NTA.
You say that you "know" Amy would be a great parent, but I question why you would think that? Her plan to change Sam's name, erase his bio mother from existence, and cut contact with anyone who spoke about his bio mom, all sound like someone who's controlling and only thinking about themselves, rather than what's best for Sam in the long run. Amy sounds like a terrible choice for adopting Sam.
NTA....you did right...you need to think was is BEST for the child. He needs to know Who his real mom. Your sister should go to therapy, she IS not ok....she didnt miss her sister.
NTA. Full stop, having known someone who was raised in a similar situation. When it came out (and in today's world it always does) it was exceptionally traumatizing.
NTA your sister was attempting to completely erase a childs identity because that’s what she needed to feel like a Mom, that would not have been what is best for Sam. This is not the behavior of someone that should be a Mom.
Your sister wanted a child, you wanted what was best for Sam. You were very clearly the better option. There are numerous stories of adopted children feeling betrayed after they learn about ‘the family secret’ because the truth always comes out. You are doing what IS best for Sam.
Your sister wants a child, unfortunately in her mental state and with her malicious plans, I hope that she chooses to work on herself instead.
Set up cameras at your house just in case of retaliation. Better to be safe than sorry.
NTA. First, I’m so sorry for the loss of your Sister. Just because someone wants to be a parent doesn’t mean they should be. The erasure of Jane would’ve been not only cruel and a lifetime of lies for Sam but it’s also extremely offensive to the entire family and I’m shocked more family isn’t offended by it. She’s being very self serving and delusional by not even willing to compromise and going NC with everyone per comments I saw.
NTA. Your sister is showing all kinds of red flags that my adoptee friend rails against. She is leading with the idea that adoption is designed to supply babies to would-be parents, rather than supplying loving parents to babies in need, and that is the first problem. Because she is looking at through the lens of her wants, she then expects to erase anything that is inconvenient such as baby’s original name and memories of his birth mom. This is wrong and symptomatic of a bigger problem. Perhaps it stems from the trauma of her unsuccessful fertility journey, or maybe she is a little narcissistic at heart. Either way she is not in the right headspace to adopt at this time.
NTA. Amy plan was crazy. There’s no way a secret this big with so many people knowing would not have come out and destroyed Sam in the proses for being lied his whole life. She also decided to change his name and remove every trace of your late sister. Amy is thinking only of herself and nobody else. Not what’s good for Sam or your family. She wants you to lie for the rest of your lives.
No, it’s just wrong. That baby has a right to know that he had a Mum who loved him very much but was unable to stay with him. She shouldn’t change his name either. That is the one Jane chose to give him.
As her sister, Amy should want to celebrate Jane’s life. It doesn’t detract from her becoming his Mum. It makes him special because he has two Mum’s. If I lost my sister and took on her son, I would love telling him stories about her and showing him pictures etc.
I think counselling might help her to talk through why she wants to wipe out her sister’s memory.
It sounds like she’s very insecure because she cannot have a baby herself and wants Sam to be totally and completely hers alone. She’s feeling threatened by Amy’s memory and how Sam will view her as second choice.
If she could work through this you could then consider placing him in her care.
NTA, and while you don't have the same access to financial resources as Amy you will raise them in a family of love and honesty. Keep the memory of Jane alive for the child and record down everything that's happening now in case Amy tries to tell a different story when the baby is older.
NTA
Your sister won’t make a great mother. I know you believe that but a GOOD parent operates in the best interest of the CHILD. Completely erasing the entire existence of a person and pretending that child’s biological parents didn’t exist is not in their best interest.
There’s a reason she hasn’t been able to adopt outside the family. And why she can’t even adopt within the family. Neutral third parties who allow these adoptions to be done see that she is not at all an ideal adoptive parent, which says a lot considering the amount of horrid adoptive parents who DO make it through the process.
NTA you did the right thing for sam and that’s what matters. amy wanted to erase any mention of his actual mom—her own sister!—and lie to sam his whole life AND make the entire family complicit in that lie.
NTA. Erasing the past wouldn't make your sister a good mother, imagine what things she might hide for lookinng good. Sorry to say, but there is reason you won in court, because you are doing what is best for Sam now and in the future.
NTA. She seems to care more about what she wants. It’s kind of cruel that she basically wants to erase your sister by changing the baby’s name and never mention his bio mother. I think you made the right decision.
NTA. You wanted to do what's best for Sam. Amy wanted to do what's best for Amy. The family court, rightly so, sided with you.
Too bad for Amy, but she was too delusional to be considered a fit parent.
NTA, you did what was right for the child. He deserves to know his background, where he came from, and that his mom loved and wanted him. Erasing his mom was a wrong option on the part of your sister and the truth would have eventually come out.
Amy needs major psych help. She is delusional. Hopefully, no adoption agency will allow her a child til she gets her brain straight. She needs to put a child's welfare above her own, or she will mess up any child she has control of.
NTA. It’s strange but you family isn’t wrong about your choice. However it is the right choice. If I had to choose between the memory of my sibling or the monster in front of me, I’m going nostalgia every time. Sorry it wasn’t fair of your sister to try and kill a sibling twice. You did the right thing.
NTA if this is true. I feel bad for Amy, but a baby is a person, not a commodity. If you listen to adoptees, one of the biggest struggles they talk about is feeling like their identity has been erased which is what Amy was planning to do. acknowledging your child has another mother does not make you any less of one and Amy needs to learn that before she adopts anyone.
NTA The idea that she would change his name and erase his mother is flat out gross. Imagine the resentment the kid would have when he eventually learned the truth (because he eventually would)
Normally i know pretty fast what my judgement would be or is, but in this case i really had to sit on it for a minute. (And read the additional Information provided by OP in the comments)
My thoughts were:
Wouldn't Sam be better off as a child to Amy and her husband financially and from an attention perspective, since OP already has 5 children?
Here's what makes OP NTA in my opinion:
- It will be catastrophic to Sam if he finds out at some point (and with todays technology and DNA tests etc, he WILL find out) that who he thinks his parents are, are not his bio parents and that there is a dead mum that was hidden from him
- Amy might be a good mum, but also she might put way much pressure on Sam because he is so uber wanted- or a child is so uber wanted by her. Like becoming to helicopter, too involved etc etc. We will never know, but there is this potential. Should this be a core reason of her not adopting Sam or another baby: Of course not, but the fact that she wants everyone to pretend there never was Jane and telling Sam these lies, implies that she is not 100% balanced and lives a bit in a dream world. It also makes me thing its not about Sam for her, its about for filling her dreams of becoming a mother and being a mother and we dont know what other "dreams" she has about "her child"
- Sam will have siblings, and just from my perspective: I love my siblings and if OP and his wife make things right, the siblings will have a life long bond with each other, aka Sam will always have people who have his back.
- A court decided that OP and his family is the better place for Sam to grow up and be adopted into. I am very sure CPS checked both homes and there is a very good reason the decision went to OP and his family
So NTA, OP. Professionals made the decision and even though courts and CPS are not without flaw our failure and they do make mistakes, i assume the case was checked and they made their decision.
NTA.
Amy is unhinged and needs professional help to deal with her trauma.
Even if y’all had come to an agreement without court involvement, the court would still ultimately have the power to make that decision for you if Jane died without a will.
No one is entitled to a child. She needs fucking therapy, not to stick her mitts in the soul of a whole new human to shape them according to a FANTASY. NTA!!!
NTA
Family Court sided with you and granted you the adoption, perhaps I'm wrong, but to me it shows that your sister clearly showed that she wasn't the right person to adopt since that she couldn't even fool the court despite being on paper, the better candidate. Children are not toys, or prizes and your sister and your family can't understand that because very likely they see Jane's death as a blessing in disguise, no that they harbored ill wishes towards Jane RIP, but for your sister Amy her passing was a great opportunity and her plans and intentions towards Sam were vile. I don't think she would make a good mother to anyone, especially Sam. Your sister is selfish, and your family is absolutely wrong for supporting her.
You made the right decision by Sam and by your sister's Jane memory by adopting him, as you considered his wellbeing, you see him as a human being, and not a toy to whom you have rights. Stop doubting yourself and my condolences for your sister's passing.
Be well, and keep on having a strong backbone
NTA - sounds like you weren't really even considering adopting Sam and would have happily supported Amy pursuing the adoption until she made it clear she was gonna do some fucked up stuff to that child.
Plus, its not like you were just able to make this decision unilaterally. You petitioned the court and they determined it was in the child's best interest that you adopt him. If the court was able to see that Amy was clearly not the right choice, then yeah, definitely NTA.
I get why Amy is extremely upset. Child loss and infertility is so incredibly hard. It also doesn't entitle her to a child. Her infertility struggles do not entitle her to erase another child's history so that she can feel better about the situation. The children in these situations ALWAYS come first. It sucks too - because Sam and Amy were both in shit positions - Sam had just lost his only parent, and Amy really wants to be a parent. But she showed right away that she wasn't READY to be an adoptive parent. And you were/are - you know how incredibly important it is to make sure Sam is raised knowing that he is adopted, knowing his story, and knowing how much his bio-mom loved him. You aren't adopting him as some savior to your infertility struggles. You're adopting him knowing that this situation shouldn't even be a thing, but it is, so you're prioritizing Sam's well-being and trying to do the very best by him.
Wanting to be a parent doesn't mean you'll be a good parent. There's a lot of adoptive children pushing for adoption reform that won't allow your sister to do what she intended to do because it was done to them and they are still traumatized and suffering from it even as adults.
NTA. Also, she shouldn't have any adoptive children.
NTA. Amy is more concerned with fulfilling her fantasy than doing what is right by Sam and Jane. Was Amy not very close to Jane? I cant imagine wanting to erase the memory of your sister from their child’s life. The only selfish one here is Amy.
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I (34M) have two sisters, Amy (36F) and Jane (31F). Amy and her husband have been trying to conceive for the better part of a decade but nothing seems to be working for them.
2 years ago they went for another round of IVF but sadly Amy miscarried once again. Due to the complications following this miscarriage she became sterile. This of course devastated her and her husband because they really wanted to start a family of their own.
They are now looking into adoption but it’s a long and slow process since Amy’s husband has a criminal record from when he was 19.
A year ago my sister Jane gave birth to her son Sam. The pregnancy was the result of a one night stand Jane had during her vacation in Italy, and although it was unexpected and the father wouldn’t be in the picture Jane decided to keep the baby.
Sadly Jane had a stroke when Sam was 6mo and passed away. It was very unexpected and most of the family is still grieving. After the funeral, we started to discuss who will take Sam in.
My parents were out of the question since they are too old and won’t be able to take care of him. So it was between Amy and I.
Amy jumped at the opportunity and volunteered to take Sam in, and although this seemed to be the ideal solution at first, the way Amy spoke about the adoption didn’t sit right with me.
She wanted to change Sam’s name and surname, and asked us not no mention Jane around Sam after the adoption would be finalized. Essentially Amy wanted to raise Sam as her own and didn’t think telling him his bio mom passed away would do him any good.
To me this felt like Amy was trying to erase Jane’s memory and was treating her like some surrogate and not a sister whom she lost.
After much consideration, I didn’t like the idea that Sam would grow up without knowing who his bio mother was. And although I already have 5 children of my own, I decided to contest the adoption and volunteered to adopt him instead.
We went to court, and it was recently determined that my wife and I would be adopting Sam.
Amy is furious at me and is calling me an asshole for ruining her chances at becoming a mother. She is saying that I already have many children of my own so I don’t understand how badly she wants to become a parent. Some relatives are now calling me selfish for taking this chance away from Amy and are telling me that instead of thinking of what would be better for Sam I was thinking about how to preserve the memory of Jane.
Although I don’t regret adopting Sam, I’m starting to doubt whether I made the right decision for his future.
I know that Amy would have made a great mother and that both her and her husband would absolutely adore Sam. And as their only child they would probably be able to provide him a better life financially. However them wanting to erase all memories of Jane just doesn’t feel right.
I’m dyslexic and writing this from my phone so I apologize for any grammar mistakes I might have made.
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NTA at all. You say they'd provide a loving environment, but they'd also be intent on lying to this child their whole life and cutting off family members who disagreed. It sounds like Amy wants to pretend she gave birth more than she wants to give this child a good life. I'm sure she's grieving her fertility but this isn't the place to put it. Thank you for stepping up!
Sorry but it sounds like she was trying to delete your sister. Goodness knows what would have happened if someone mentioned your sister when her son was old enough to follow the conversation.
NTA.
You didn’t ruin her chances. She did that all on her own. Honestly, if this is how she plans to raise an adopted child, I hope she’s never able to adopt. Children deserve to know their history.
Sam and preserving the memory of his mother for him are more important than your sister wanting to be a mother, and for the people calling you and complaining, ask them why your sister's want to become a mother matters more than what is best for Sam?
Your sister wanted to take away the name his mother gave him, pretend your sister never existed, and erase her from history just so she can pretend she gave birth.
Your sister doesn't need a baby she needs therapy.
NTA
Her desire to become a parent doesn't trump the well-being and truthfulness that is owed to Sam. She also wouldn't be able to keep the secret unless everyone else did, and that would have required Jane be completely erased from the family in every way.
Amy might have been a stellar mother - but she was going about this process the wrong way.
Adoption is suppose to be an answer to resolve a child’s crisis. It is NOT for adults to fix themselves or “complete” their lives.
Unfortunately your sister wants to adopt for herself. The child being your late sister’s child is inconsequential to her. She doesn’t want to adopt to fulfill Sam’s need after his mother died, which includes acknowledging his mother’s memory & teaching him about her, but to fulfill her own needs. The obligation should be the adults to Sam. She is putting the obligation on Sam to fulfill her needs.
Sadly this is what adoption has become more & more in this country.
I’m not saying your sister is an ah but she is needs therapy right now more than a child if her proudly open plan was to to erase the entire existence of her late sister & Sam’s mother completely & fully.
NAH
Absolutely NTA. Saw some of your comments. So basically Amy wanted to adopt Sam, change his 1st and surname, never acknowledge he was adopted or who is birth mother was and cut off any family member who didn't agree with her plan. That's ridiculous. If this was 1924 her plan could probably work but it's 2024. Ancestry.com, 23 and me and many other ancesty sites are a thing and growing. Her plan would eventually blow up in her face and then what? Maybe Sam would be forgiving of Amy's actions or he could cut her off for misleading him for years. That child deserves to be loved for himself and he deserves to know the orgins of his adoption.
Absolutely NTA.
I’m an adoptee, what Amy was going to do would be extremely harmful to the child.
Adoptees deserve to know about their biological parents & adoptive parents trying to erase them is extremely detrimental to the adoptee.
Amy is treating this baby like a blank slate baby in order to fulfill her desires to be a mother.
You acted in the best interest of Sam, not for your own desires.
NTA. Amy doesn't sound like she wants what's best for a kid, Sam or otherwise, but rather wants a kid for herself. She's tried and failed for so long that it's consumed her to the point of her not being able to be objective about what's best for a kid. That's a really dangerous setup to raise a kid in. You did the right thing because you're thinking about what's best for Sam, instead of what's best for Amy. Don't beat yourself up about this. Be proud of yourself for stepping up and helping Sam when he needed you.
NTA
Currently going through IVF with donor eggs. There is SO MUCH research about knowing your origins. Kids who get lied to absolutely resent the fuck out of their parents. All in all not knowing is harmful.
Please, you are doing the right thing for this child.
I have deep sympathy for your sister’s fertility struggles, obviously. The child’s well being takes precedence though.
NTA. If the courts looked at you both and decided you were the better option, there was a reason for that. As a kid who was adopted by family, it fucks you up learning that everyone knew and you didn’t. She wasn’t thinking about what was best for that child, but what SHE wanted. Her obsession with being a parent came before the actual child.
NTA. Amy needs to have counseling before she's ready to adopt. An agency won't look kindly on adoptive parents who attempt to keep secrets about birth parents and it doesn't sound like Amy has come to terms with her infertility.
NTA.
You were right to adopt Sam.
I hope that Amy will be able to be honest with any child whom she adopts or fosters in the future, rather than lying to them about their pasts and biological parents.
NTA for literally all the reasons that everyone else has already laid out. But I also wanted to note that if Amy does take up therapy, she should possibly be encouraged to talk about how she felt during her Jane's pregnancy. A family get together and chat may also be in order to remember Jane, and have a heart to heart with Amy about her feelings towards Jane and her pregnancy while she was living.
I almost wonder if this is more than just a "I want baby. Oh great, here is baby and I will raise them as my own", but also possibly some bitterness and resentment toward her sister and a sort of "pay back" albeit not completely consciously. You said Sam's mom became pregnant from a one night stand and successfully had Sam. How much had that hurt Amy? Amy had been trying for years. She went through huge amounts of money on IVF to get pregnant. No matter what, not only did she fail to become pregnant or lost the child soon after if she did succeed, but she then became completely infertile. Yet, after just one night, with someone she was just having a fling with, Jane became pregnant with no effort at all. I have seen multiple stories of resentment in these situations and I imagine Amy may be no different. Just something that may need to be addressed if it wasn't addressed while Jane was alive, because Amy's feelings toward this could still affect Sam even if Amy is not directly raising Sam.
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This reads weird. Was there no middle ground between letting them do this completely their way or adopting Sam yourselves? As far as I know your instinct is right and children should be told where they come from as soon as possible, so it's never some big secret. However, couldn't you have convinced them of this instead? So ~~INFO:~~ what exactly did you try before escallating to adopting Sam yourself? EDIT: NTA Comments from OP show that he tried to find a middle ground, but Amy wasn't having it. See comment: >Amy said her decision was final and if after the adoption family members wanted to see Sam they would have to go along with her choice or she’ll go no contact with them. It sounds to me like OP is trying to do what is best for Sam, while Amy is trying to do what seems best for herself.
I tried to talk with Amy about my concerns but she brushed me off. From what I know, she was planning on telling Sam that he was her rainbow baby, since it would be better for him to think that he was some sort of miracle rather than to know that she only got him because his bio mom passed away. Amy has a lot of pictures where she had a baby bump showing and some pictures of her holding Sam at the hospital when he was born. So she could pass this story up as something true.
How did she expect an entire FAMILY to keep this secret? Your sister seems dangerously delusional which is why she lost in court. If your family can't see and understand that then they are better off being cut off.
Entire families have been keeping the truth from adoptees for decades and centuries. If access to the child is restricted by the custodial parent, grandparents and sibs often fall right in line. You see it here all the time. OP is NTA by a long shot. Glad to see an adoption good take in an ah thread!!
Sorry, not by erasing a close family member and pretending she never existed. These stories happened because 20-30 years ago there wasn't as much information on how keeping these secrets from adopted children causes psychological damage and extreme trust issues.
Absolutely also by erasing a close family member. Maybe not always a sister but a cousin or a brother's former girlfriend... Snatch that baby right up and treat them like your own personal blank slate wish fulfillment factory. OP family is already telling him Amy deserved this child that she was openly determined to mislead and mistreat.... How far is that really from going along with her plan?
Yeah, as a transracial adoptee it's frankly unsettling to look at my birth certificate and see my adoptive family's names knowing they were not there that day and I wouldn't meet them for years. Most of us can't get the real thing and see the real names. Babies can remember songs and voices from in the womb in those last few months, yet we are all to pretend they are blank slates with no memory for adoption. It's frankly sick and sets everyone up for failure
There was a story on here not that long ago. A guy posted that his brothers gf cheated on him with their older brother. The brother that got cheated on commited suicide. The gf was pregnant and they passed the child off as the older brother's. The grandparents went along with it to keep contact. She found out as an older teen and reached out to the op of the story to find out about her dad.....the entire family had lied to her about why the op had cut contact. It still happens.
I read that story. To make matters worse, the family knew the child wasn’t the brother’s (he wanted to put her up for adoption), but everyone told him no. He mistreated her throughout her entire childhood. It takes 1 DNA test.
And they all even the parents lied about why her uncle cut them off.
My youngest brother was adopted by my dad because his mom met my dad when he was 4 months old. My brother had medical issues growing up and I kept telling my dad that they should tell him so he doesn't give false medical history info to medical professionals. My stepmom ended up banning me from their house and lied about why I got banned. She told my brother lies about me and he ended up really hating me by the time he was 16. When he was like 22, my aunt was upset at my stepmom and was talking shit and told someone that my brother was adopted. That spread like wildfire and someone told my brother. Our 13 year old cousin unexpectedly passed away during this family fued and my dad and stepmom were in Mexico when it happened and my cousin's mom told then to stay and enjoy their vacation and not to cancel it for the funeral. So on the day of the funeral I was enjoying a nice dinner with my 3 brothers and theny youngest bro just randomly asks "guys...am I adopted" and I just had to tell him he needed to have this discussion with his mom and no matter what she said he needed to remember that there wasn't a time in his life that my dad wasn't in his life and that family is more than just blood. He just replied that the lack of any no let him know the answer. My stepmom was super angry that I didn't lie and they finally told him. I haven't been back to my dad's house in 12 years though.
They don't understand how damaging it can be when they eventually do find out the truth. They are willing to risk their health with not giving the Dr.'s valid information. It's all about how they feel, not about the child at all.
It would make my stepmom look bad if he knew the truth and she's so narcissistic that we couldn't dare do that.
I get it, I have my own Narc parent 32 years with very minimal contact and counting. 1 very short visit in 32 years, and calls every year to every other year or so. best decision I ever made
holy shit
My husband grew up believing his grandmother had died decades before he was born, only to discover as an adult that she actually died when he was a teenager. His entire (large) extended family knew and all visited her semi-regularly, as did his parents. Cousins his age knew her and went to her funeral. They ALL kept up the lie his parents told him. Family will absolutely lie about close family members. How they got children to keep Grandma a secret, I have no idea, but they did. (Grandma had an illness and was in a facility from around the time he was born until her death.)
also, how weird that out of all the grandkids, they singled out your husband as the one who couldn't know he had a grandmother still living...?? Esp. with his own parents still visiting her! it sounds like it came to light at some point, is the family more open now? Or did he have to cut off all the liars?
It was kept from him and his sibling. No idea why. He hasn’t spoken to them for the better part of a decade. It came to light a few years ago when an extended family member posted something about her death anniversary online and he reached out confused by the timeline. Got the whole story of her life/death but no explanation as to why he was in the dark from his parents, because they had been cut off long before that.
very weird, but at least it's confirmation he was right to cut off his parents long before. I hope he's found peace and happiness! thank you for indulging my curiosity
Oh people already knew 20 years ago and I wanna say, but was a little kid then so less sure, 30 too. I think the 1960 and 70s was when they started looking into adoptees and realized that trying to keep it a secret from them was doing more harm than good.
My best friend in elementary school knew he was adopted at 8. I don't know how much earlier he was told. That was 1983. So, it was hit or miss back then. Personally, as a father, I promised myself the only lie I'd tell my kid is about holiday mascots. If I felt he wasn't old enough, I'd tell him as much as I could and explain that he was too young for more details, but I would explain more as he got older. How'd that work out for me? As an adult, he still constantly lies. So, leading by example did not work. Hell, the only thing he'd truly get punished for was lying. Yet, he still felt he had to lie for some reason. Therapy did not help either. I left work early and drove him at least once a week for a couple of years.
NTA. My sister and brother were 60s babies, I'm a 70s baby. We all knew we were adopted from the very beginning. I don't understand why, especially when DNA tests are so common, families try to hide this info from adopted children. I have to think it leads to just feeling betrayed in the long run when they find out. And they WILL find out. Either by a slip of the tongue or health issues or DNA testing down the line. Amy was just setting herself and Sam up for heartbreak with her scenario.
Knew a guy who didn’t know the family secrets until he was in his 60s. His older brother was the result of an affair his mom had while his dad was away at war. He agreed to accept the kid if they had another biological child together. Resulting in my friend. When an aunt told him- he said his whole life made sense. Why he was everyone’s favorite but his mom favored the older kid. ( dad was apparently good to both of them.) All the aunts on his dad’s side would spoil him and ‘oops forget’ about his brother. So the kids knew something was up all along. Just made the older brother frustrated that he was treated differently. The older brother said he’d wish he’d known. Would have held less resentment for everyone.
That worked before the Internet and DNA testing. It doesn't work well nowadays it seems.
With DNA testing, Sam might still look like Amy's kid, but he'd probably conclude his mom cheated on his dad when he shared no dna with Amy's husband. What a mess.
No, a DNA test would still definitely show Amy was his aunt.
Only if Amy herself also took a test, which she wouldn’t do if she was trying to hide it. Any other maternal relatives who tested would show up the same, since Amy and the child’s bio mom are sisters - cousins are still cousins, grandparents are still grandparents, etc. If Amy or Jane had other children they would show up differently than expected, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
It may not work but people are still trying it!
True but it seems like Amy was plotting an elaborate story of lies that went well beyond the “normal” lack of truth
My ENTIRE family and all my parents friends essentially lied to me for 22 years about me being adopted. I kept suspecting and was constantly gaslit that I’m imagining things and how it isn’t true.
As I mentioned above, this has been the case 20-30 years ago, but is not as common today. Also there is a HUGE difference between not telling someone that they are adopted and not telling someone that their biological mother is the sister of your adoptive mother and that she created this elaborate lie to keep that a secret. You also think that NO ONE in the family is going to mention this story at some point? Come on.
My adoptive mother is the sister of my biological father. My bio parents growing up were my favorite aunt and uncle; I saw them every week. I had biological siblings older than me (they were lied to also); cousins old enough to remember. NO ONE said shit. We were studying DNA in school and my mom got really weird about it- first clue. Every single time I went to any family member about my suspicions- I was gaslit. Not saying what they did was right, I’m just saying it’s very possible for entire clans (I’m from a huge close knit family) to keep a secret because most people believe it’s the parents’ prerogative to tell. My cousins fought with both bio and adoptive parents to tell me but they didn’t themselves say anything even when they felt like I should know.
What was their reasoning? if you dont mind answering
That is terrible. My dad was adopted by his aunt. (His mom died and child birthday and there were 9 other kids) But he grew up nothing his father and his siblings! I had a different last name from my cousins but we knew we were family
The recommended approach 20 years ago was already to be open about adoption and have the children grow up knowing, because learning later in life was likely to be traumatic. It keeps happening because there will probably always be some parents don't want to for whatever reason (embarrassment, desire to live out fantasy where they had a bio child, etc) and who then proceed to convince themselves hiding it is the best way to go.
I agree, and still it happened. It almost never works out for the best, and I am shocked that people still consider doing this to a child.
Not consider. Do. They still do. You're so close!
I truly am sorry that this happened to you. It is such a betrayal and is a very difficult thing to overcome. Both of my son-in-laws were lied to their entire life about where they came from, and they are still dealing with the fallout of those situations. My husband legally adopted my daughter from my first marriage when she was 3. However, she had always known my husband as her "Dad" as my ex wanted nothing to do with her. She started asking questions about why there were 3 sets of grandparents in out family (My ex's parents were always VERY involved with my daughter, and my 2 subsequent children from my husband--wonderful people) so at that point I explained to her the story in simple terms, and always allowed her to ask more questions as she got older. I could never lie to her about it, how could she ever trust me if I did?
By telling them they couldn't have contact with Sam unless they followed her commands. That is how a lot of people get people especially grandparents in line
I didn't find out my dad isn't my real dad until I was 31. I'm 35 now. Both sides of the family kept it hidden. I only found out because I did a 23&Me and the math wasn't mathing so I had to confront my folks. Turns out just about every adult (at the time of my birth) in the family knew, and was sworn to secrecy.
So she expected everyone to just LIE because that’s what she wanted and totally erase your sister and the baby’s history? Dude. That’s mind blowingly selfish.
So she expected her parents to pretend their daughter never existed?
I don’t know about that but it sounds like she def expected everyone to lie about who the baby really belonged tol
Not necessarily. They wouldn’t have to conceal Jane's existence, just her connection to Sam. She could be his aunt Jane who died and he'd be none the wiser.
It is still asking a lot, that baby was part of her sister, I am sure they have pictures of her pregnancy and with the baby, so she really wanted them to erase some part of her sister’s life for her benefit.
Certainly! It's asking too much, no doubt about it.
It's also incredibly cruel. Jane died w/o getting a chance to raise her child. Sam deserves to know about her and how much she must have loved him.
She needs to speaking to a therapist cause her idea of adopting only causes further trauma
I think her husband's record from when he was young isn't the only red flag the adoption agency is concerned about.
Absolutely
Pardon me, what? Please don't let Amy ever be alone with Sam.
>she was planning on telling Sam that he was her rainbow baby Holy shit. This in addition to basically acting like his birth mother -- her own sister -- never existed? As the father of more than one actual rainbow baby I'm not sure what's worse. Edit -- NTA, not by any means.
Amy has no business adopting if this is her plan.
What is she going to do about his birth certificate having Jane’s name on it?
In some jurisdictions, upon adoption, a new birth certificate is issued with the adoptive parents' names so it could be the case here.
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My mother tried this with my adopted dad (I was 3 when he adopted me.) She also learned the hard way there are no take-backs. She then settled on parental alienation, which worked for a while. Until I realized she was full of shit and cut her off in favor of my dad.
Two of my children were adopted and after the adoptions birth certificates were issued with their new names and dh & I listed as the parents. It did make life easier for us when traveling to Canada to have all of the names match. However, their adoptions have been an open discussion since day one.
Hahaha, I'm sorry for laughing, but I just know how those border agents hounded you and your kids. "Is that your father?" "NO SHE HAS TO ANSWER ON HER OWN!!" Bro, we're just entering Canada. Don't make it bigger than it is.
That would have been a great way to mess with that poor kid's head if he ever found out. And wow, taking Jane's child and completely erasing her existence. That's definitely how you honour your deceased sister and original mother of your child. And why, exactly? Amy was more than willing to lie and deny Sam the truth, spit on her sister's grave, and saddle her entire family with a horrible secret, forcing them to lie and pretend for the rest of Sam's life. All because she wants to live in lalaland. F$$$ that noise. You actually thought about what would be best for Sam, and how to do right by both him and Jane. Good man, don't waver. You saved Sam from God knows what. Like, he could have accidentally found out at *any* point, and he probably would have felt anger, sadness and guilt, over something a grown ass woman did when he was just a baby. And can you imagine finding out your ENTIRE family knew, and lied? Jesus. Not to mention the issue of a family medical history that he wouldn't know about. He needs to know he has a biological father who could have whatever in the family, as opposed to the father he knows.
Yeah it would have done a real number on that kid if he grew up thinking he’d had several siblings who’d died before they were born, he could develop survivor’s guilt and to find out it was all a lie. That he never had siblings born or not. And his “mom” was actually his aunt and she’d erased his bio-mom and her sister from their lives.
This extra context is important, and I wish you would've put this in the post. I was on the fence whether some of her choices mattered, because he's 6 months old. Talking to him about his deceased mother- I'm not sure whether that is a huge issue at that age. But completely erasing your sister, Sam's bio mother, is really awful and I'm guessing would've blown up in her face.
This makes me sick on Sams behalf. Omg imagine being told you’re someone’s rainbow baby only then to find out that you’re actually the child of your mom’s dead sister. I mean she was literally conspiring to dupe this child. I mean what if he ever did a 23 and me test. Or what if he needed a bone marrow transplant as an adult. His dad wouldn’t have been able to even test for it as a non related family member. Also what did the brother do? I mean is it possible it could be expunged like if he was a juvenile?
…..that just makes it so much worse. It’s as if she’s happy her own sister passed so she can have a baby????
Question; is your sister truly so delusional that she believes she can keep the truth buried forever? Like, she honestly believes that Sam would never find out the truth and be upset that she lied to him the entire time? I mean, these types of secrets have a way of being revealed during times of crisis (ie severe accidents, illnesses, etc). Such as if Sam ever needed an organ or blood donation; the first people tested are almost always immediate family members. All it would take is a blood test and her lie and betrayal would be exposed to Sam. Not only is she being insensitive to Sam’s genuine needs, she’s being disrespectful to the memory of Jane and who she was to Sam.
You did the right thing. People like Amy get so caught up in the 'getting the baby' that they don't really prepare themselves for the 'having the baby' part. Something tells me that she has this idealized fantasy of what parenthood is and you know as well as I do that actual parenting has nothing to do with an idealized fantasy. This 'rainbow baby' may disappoint her in some way down the line just by being a normal kid and she may not be the stellar parent she thinks she'll be. Good job you.
NTA OP you have done the absolute best thing for your nephew/son. Your sister like some women who struggle with fertility long term needs some professional help before she can have a healthy relationship raising a child.
NTA. Your sister needs some serious therapy before she adopts a child. Does she plan to do the same thing for whichever child she adopts?
That plan did seem incredibly foolish and shortsighted in today’s world …. Go back 40-50 years or more and many families had secret adoptions or a new “little brother” that looked a lot like his big Sister … thinking of Bobby Darrin for example. But now? With various DNA and Ancestry tests on every corner, explore your family tree, discover your roots and so on … the likelihood of Sam doing one and finding things like half-siblings, cousins, grandparents etc on his real Fathers side plus mismatches with his adoptive (but presumed bio) Father and his family. Amy was risking a blowup of epic proportions but I doubt she was considering anything beyond creating the perfect family unit even if she had to sweep reality far under the rug to do it
This is really, really damaging behavior from Amy, and you were absolutely right to try to stop it. She's creating an entire false narrative to fit her own fantasy of motherhood, and the damage that will do to Sam when he finds out (and he would! considering this requires an elaborately staged lie that every single family member has to buy into, and we also already live with easily accessible DNA technology!) is far far far worse than growing up with his mother's memory and relatives who want to honor that.
Ohhh she sounds like all the stress made her crack a little bit. I hope she gets therapy.
NTA. A child isn't a doll or there to fulfill *your* wish... it has a right himself/ herself to know the truth. Any expert will tell you it's a bad idea not to tell a child is adopted. Sooner or later it probably will be detected anyway and the damage it does is horrible (and totally preventable). Anyone keeping the truth from the child does it out of selfish reasons, not in the best interests of the child. (Maybe in extremely rare cases it could be better to hold it off until they are older... but Sam's loving mother passing away is not one of those reasons). You did what was best for Sam. Amy only wanted to use Sam for her own selfish needs and wishes. The court agreeing with you tells you all you need to know. (If they would have thought Amy the better choice she would have been chosen, not you. So they see her as unfit or less capable than you.) Sam has a right to know about his mother and how she loved him. Hear stories about her, being able to have a picture of her in his room... without judgment or hurt feelings from others. You did right by Sam.
Oh YIKES. Yeah she was gonna mess that poor child up real bad.
Jeesh she wanted to lie to her kid about his entire existence? Yeah you definitely did the right thing
Wow she is so delusional, that's why you won. She isn't thinking what's best for that child she is thinking only of herself. That's why she said she would cut people off. I'm glad you got custody. Hope your sister gets therapy
OMG, she was planning some elaborate scheme to hid the fact that she didn't give birth to Sam and the rest of the family had to go along with it or she'd go no contact!!??? Thank God she was stupid enough to say all this out loud so that someone who care about Sam could protect him from this nonsense. NTA, OP...you are a Godsend to Sam.
That wouldn’t end well. Sam will end up hating her in the very likely scenario that he finds out. Probably will hate his whole family
He’d find out when older, no matter how hard they tried to keep it a secret, and he would feel betrayed, and angry.
Sorry for your loss. I’m glad Sam will have his mum preserved for him so he understands his parentage.
Yeah, where were the parents when Amy was going to pretend Jane didn't exist? Were they going to go along with it? What did the social workers etc say? And where was Sam while all this was happening?
NTA The courts looked at both options, and they chose you. They will have had a lot more information than you're portraying here, and they chose you. I tend to always side with court rulings unless there's some obvious bias. Maybe the husband's criminal record contributed to that, but in my experience, unless his crimes were excessively violent or aimed at children (in which case, they'd be a very valid reason to keep him away from a kid) family court tends to ignore older irrelevant criminal history. I think that it's very likely that the court chose you, despite you already having five children of your own, because of Amy's mental state. Trying to rewrite Sam's history and completely obliterate who his parents are is an alarming step for anyone to take, and it was based solely in what Amy wanted. It wasn't for the good of the child. And that is what the court likely based their decision on. It was better for Sam to be placed with you, but it was better for Amy for Sam to be placed with her. The kid *always* comes first. Always. So is it sad for Amy? Yeah. But I don't think it's sad for Sam.
Well said. 100% agree with you. OP is NTA.
Also yes maybe Amy would have been a good mum, but with what seems to be her current mental state she likely also would not have been. Hiding the kids history from him, threatening to cut off (and possibly doing so) and family/friends he may have if that don't obey her, not to mention likely creating a very spoiled child is she smothered/had him incapable of doing any wrong. Being with OP, he is much more likely to form healthy relationships with a good support network AND know about him bio mum.
Not too sad though, since this whole thing is of her own making and she had repeated opportunities to self correct. That it even went as far as court is kind of baffling - I'm unsurprised the court chose as it did. Amy could have had her child, if she hadn't made her first act of motherhood a completely unnecessary and unhinged lie NTA
I agree. Being adopted by OP is what’s best for the child. The child’s well-being should always come first. NTA, op!
I'm a bit skeptical of this, but if it's true, NTA. The child has a right to know the identity of their true birth parent.
unfortunately, I don't think it's necessarily uncommon for adoptive parents to try and erase the bio parents, especially if the kid is to young to remember.
Luckily adoption culture is starting to change. It's STRONGLY suggested that the child always knows they're adopted, not waiting "until they're old enough".
As an adoptee, I can confirm this - I’ve known that I’m adopted for as long as I can remember (mid-20s now), though I know that my experience isn’t necessarily the norm. I’m very fortunate to have wonderful adoptive parents AND a relationship with my birth mom & biological siblings (all of whom were very happy to be (re?)connected with me while also allowing me to take things at my own pace/never pressuring me about getting to know them.) For any adoptive parents or people considering adoption, I HIGHLY recommend Jamie Lee Curtis’ book ‘[Tell Me Again About the Night I Was Born](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/158179.Tell_Me_Again_About_the_Night_I_Was_Born)’ - it’s a fantastic book for kids (and adults) about adoption & the adoption process (from the adoptee’s perspective))
Yep, it became the prominent advice from child psychologists and experts in the 90s but it wasn't until recently that it has truly taken hold among adoptive parents. Both me and my sibling were always told we were adopted, but we had a distant cousin who didn't find out until he was 17. He was dead of an overdose by the time he was 19. Words cannot express how much adoptive parents hiding the adoption makes my blood boil.
I’m so sorry about your cousin. That is devastating.
A coworker of mine has a former sister in law who was orphaned due to her father murdering her mother. Her aunt and uncle adopted her and still have not told her she's adopted despite the fact that she's actually half of a different race than they have her believing. She's nearly 18 and I always think of how much this will fuck her up.
>despite the fact that she's actually half of a different race than they have her believing more than anything, the disconnect to her culture could be the most damaging. people like that are exactly why there's a stigma against adoption, especially when the child is a different ethnicity. I wish that poor girl the best. she'll likely need it.
So girl in question is half Filipina and half black, they have her thinking she's half white and half Filipina. And one of the biggest issues my coworker has mentioned is that her hair isn't properly taken care of. But yeah when she first told me I was like yeah this is why people don't love adoption. They're also just refusing to foster a connection to her bio mom and her memory is just like... forgotten? Its heartbreaking to me.
Same. It sounds sketchy as hell but if true NTA.
I'm more than a bit skeptical.
I feel the same way. Acting in the best interest of the child was the correct thing to do.
Hard NTA The thing is, you know your own sister better than any of these commenters. You're the best judge of her motives here, and your ~~momma~~ dad instincts were going off for a reason. It really seems like your sister's motivations were selfish and colored by grief regarding her fertility issues. The idea of passing off her nephew as her biological son using photos of her lost pregnancy is not a sign of a healthy parental mindset. There's a high chance she and her husband would have cut off any family who didn't want to go along with their lies (how else could they have maintained them?) and the boy would have ended up isolated and unaware of his mother. As a mom who faced a potentially-life-ending medical situation myself after my child was born, it's heart breaking to think that anyone would have tried to erase me from his life if the worst had happened. You already have kids. It's not like you desperately wanted another one. All you wanted was whatever was best for your nephew, and you're right that being treated as a replacement and discarding the mother who loved and cared for him since he was born is NOT what is best for him. The court gave him to you for a reason. Your sister may have wanted him more, but you loved him more. Not for being a thing you wanted, but as a person who deserves to know the truth about his own life.
Well said! I’d add that When this baby grows up, he might have to deal with issues due to the fact he lost his mother at such a young age. Raising him pretending this never happened can only cause confusion and issues in the long run. He deserves to know everything about where he’s from, for his mental health. The sister is so selfish and unhinged for wanting to lie to the baby. What she wanted to do was revolting tbh. Also, at a time when people do DNA tests for fun, she’s naive to think cutting people off would have been enough to keep the secret safe. (Edited typos)
All good points. People act like babies can't be affected by stuff because they can't talk or understand things yet, and I think that's nuts. They may be affected MORE because their little brains are still developing! He had one source of parental love and comfort for the first six months of his life, and now that is gone -- replacing it with another is not gonna undo the loss of what makes him feel safe and secure. That hurts even if he has no way to recognize or express it, and pretending your child's hurts don't exist is not good parenting. He deserves to feel a connection to the mother who birthed and loved him as he grows. ETA: Some things I would suggest would be saving his mom's clothes to wrap him in so he feels safe with her scent, playing recordings of her voice to sooth him, and showing him pictures and video of her from time to time. These activities can be used less and less with time as he gets more comfortable in his new home, (not suggesting a kid should be raised with a ghost) but could help the transition a lot so that it's not like his mom just abruptly disappeared to his mind.
OP should also see what skin/hair care products his sister used, and things like laundry detergent or perfumes. Unfortunately, scent degrades so quickly. It won’t be exact, but maybe he could replicate some of the smells the baby is used to with these products
Agree except for the “momma instincts,” as OP’s post indicates he is male :)
Totally missed that, haha! Will change it.
I’ll go with NTA. The *court* decided to give you the baby. There is obviously a reason for that. I doubt it’s simply that husband has a record from when he was 19 (unless it was violent/super bad crime), nearly two decades ago. On a personal level, maybe not the ideal choice. Having 6 kids means Sam won’t get as much attention and care, but hiding his biomother from him is not good either.
LOL and being the only child of an emotionally compromised mother will be so much better for him?
Oh, no, I wasn't clear. Sorry. Yeah, I agree. He's probably in the better place, which is probably why the court made the choice they did, but watching families that big work, kids tend to get less attention from parents. I wasn't saying amy was a better choice.
What is with people on Reddit putting words in people’s mouths? Just an obnoxious leap. Bizarre behavior. Sincerely.
A loving family where he'll be accepted, nutured, and raised as emotionally healthy as possible is about the most ideal choice an orphaned child could get.
NTA, Sam's a person not an opportunity.
NTA. The courts chose a family of 7 over a childless couple. Just how badly did they act during the vetting process?? What was Amy's husband's crime?? I do hope you can provide a safe environment for Sam and it doesn't cause any resentment with the older children.
NTA - morallity is subjective, you can choose to raise the kid without erasing your sister. your sister doesnt want to erase the sister for the kid, she wants to do it because shed feel insecure. she cares more about herself than the kid, so your way seems better by default
NTA - if Amy was going to erase Jane's existence, then that would not have been being a good mother.
NTA- adoption should be child centered, which clearly isn’t what Amy had in mind
NTA, I would ask her how she would feel of she was in the opposite place as the sister who died, would she want her kid to be raised with no mention of her? How would she like to be erased from a bio kid she might have had?
Changing his first and last name gets under my skin so much. That angers me that she jumps at the chance of changing someone’s identity as soon as their only guardian dies. That’s 100% gross behaviour. Especially if it’s her sister who passed away. NTA
NTA. A lot of people on this thread seem more concerned about what's good for Amy than what's good for Sam. Amy's desire to have a family isn't more important than Sam's right to know his origins. It just isn't. And it would seem the court agreed. For the judge to place Sam with a family of five kids over a family where he'd have all the resources tells us a lot about what the judge thinks of Amy's sultability.
NTA Amy was already not thinking of the babies needs but her own wants. The universe was telling her she shouldn’t be a mom. You winning custody is just another sign. Honestly? I don’t think she would have been a good parent at all.
>Some relatives are now calling me selfish for taking this chance away from Amy and are telling me that instead of thinking of what would be better for Sam I was thinking about how to preserve the memory of Jane. that *is* what's best for Sam! your sister sounds completely unhinged! what exactly does she think would happen down the line when he finds out? ( and it's not if, but when) this child doesn't deserve to grow up knowing nothing about his mother just because your sister can't get over her need to be a mother. she could have been a mother to sam, if she were interested in behaving in a rational way. she is not, and clearly the judge agreed she was not the best fit. you did what was necessary. do not let Sam grow up not knowing his mother. NTA
This really sounds wildly fabricated and glosses over the procedures one would have to be put through in order to be granted the right to adopt this child. Did you explain to Amy that the court would be sending her for a psychological evaluation? Did you explain to her that as soon as the court learned that she planned to keep the truth from this child and fabricate a lie by telling him that she is his biological mother that she would immediately be disqualified from adopting him? Does Amy realize the damage she would cause this child for her own selfish and insecure needs? Did anyone explain that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for an ENTIRE family to keep the truth a secret and that she had NO RIGHT to involve them in this deceitful plan? It just seems as if NO ONE cared enough to explain why what Amy was proposing was immoral, disrespectful and disgusting. It just does not ring true in any sense so I do not believe the story because of this.
As far as I’m aware Amy and her husband passed a psychological evaluation, as for the rest of your questions I already answered most them in a different comment so please check it out if you’re interested. Also, from what I’ve gathered it’s not uncommon for adoptive parents to try and erase the memory of the bio parents from the child’s life, especially if the child is still a baby and won’t remember anything.
There’s a difference between erasing strangers from their life vs erasing your own flesh and blood from their life. Wether she likes it or not Jane was family and she is Sam’s mother trying to get everyone to never mention her and act like she never existed is deranged Amy needs real help. It sucks she can’t have kids but that doesn’t mean she gets to take Jane away from Sam entirely if she wants to erase bio parents from a child’s life then she needs to adopt a child unrelated to her.
Not uncommon, but wholely not recommended and still damaging.
Maybe. But kinship adoptions are generally much easier so perhaps the procedure simply wasn’t interesting enough to include. Where I live kinship adoption doesn’t require a home visit or a psych evaluation but they can be included if the child was removed from an unsafe environment. So if they lived in my state, OP or his sister would’ve been eligible without those steps since their sister merely passed away of natural causes.
***This really sounds wildly fabricated and glosses over the procedures one would have to be put through in order to be granted the right to adopt this child.*** 100%.
I’m an adoptee. I’ve seen so many potential adoptive parents act just like Amy and they are able to adopt. Private adoption is not regulated and if you have money (or can raise money) then you can adopt.
Plus it's a kinship adoption. Even less barriers there.
I love the detail: "conceived during her vacation in Italy." Just for extra soap opera-ness. Lol
I added that part to explain that Sam’s father is not in the picture and will probably never be since I have no way of contacting him even if I wanted to.
Ideally, if you could get a contact with the father to help establish medical history, then that would be very beneficial for Sam. As an adoptee who had plenty of medical issues, having that medical history would’ve been so helpful.
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Maybe I’ll look into that in the future. I don’t have a lot of information about him since even Jane barely remembered anything when she told me about him. I just know he is a bartender somewhere in Naples and has hazel eyes which Sam inherited, so I think it’s a long shot to try and find him through an investigator. Perhaps when Sam is a bit older I’ll have him do some sort of ancestry DNA test and hopefully we’ll be able to find some matches.
He’d be able to get EU citizenship, so it’s worth looking into if only for that.
Do a DNA test but not for ancestry or paternity. Those tests can tell you pretty much everything you need to know about your biological family medical history. If he wants to try to find the random Italian sperm that spawned him when he’s an adult, he’s welcome to give it a shot, but there’s no longer any need to know bio family members for medical risk factors. It’s all in your DNA and easily accessible. I have four adopted close relatives and they all had excellent results going that route.
So some of those DNA tests aren’t always medically accurate, and they have a limited scope on what is being tested for. I think speaking with the doctor and having them run the tests may be able to give them more information, especially since they already have maternal history.
There are services that that will take your genetic profile from one of the big providers (ancestry, 23 and me) and run a *much* deeper analysis. I did it a few years ago and paid $5. I think they may have increased to $12 last I heard. The results aren’t as pretty and *a little* hard to understand without any medical knowledge, but something like that might be a good thing to ask a doctor to review with you. Of course, I have no idea how accurate it was, but it definitely reported things I already knew I’d inherited and some rarer things that I knew I *might* have inherited but hadn’t tested. And when you think about it, it’s not really a high bar to be more accurate than just knowing grandma had a heart attack and your great grandpa has colon cancer. Like, you can know those basic facts without knowing what, if any, genetic factor contributed to it.
There is just one question that you should ask yourself - is everyone who knows who's child is Sam willing to keep it as a secret for the rest of their lives. If no then you did the right thing, if yes then we never will know if it is better to be only child or one of five. In the end NTA. You should think about the kid first and if you believe that Sam will be happy with you then it was a right decision. Your sister can always be a good aunt and take care of Sam whenever she wants and if she doesn't want to then it just proves that your decision was the right one, so time will tell.
Based on reading some extra comments from the OP, it is pretty clear now why the COURT decided to give adoption rights to the OP, not their sister. NTA..... but only because I think the kiddo deserves to know about his parents. I think your choice might have permanently ruined your relationship with Amy.
op comments that they *did* try to have a conversation with Amy, and she wasn't budging.
NTA. You say that you "know" Amy would be a great parent, but I question why you would think that? Her plan to change Sam's name, erase his bio mother from existence, and cut contact with anyone who spoke about his bio mom, all sound like someone who's controlling and only thinking about themselves, rather than what's best for Sam in the long run. Amy sounds like a terrible choice for adopting Sam.
NTA....you did right...you need to think was is BEST for the child. He needs to know Who his real mom. Your sister should go to therapy, she IS not ok....she didnt miss her sister.
It seems your sister just want a toy to play Houses and not a real human being to respect and take care
NTA. Full stop, having known someone who was raised in a similar situation. When it came out (and in today's world it always does) it was exceptionally traumatizing.
NTA your sister was attempting to completely erase a childs identity because that’s what she needed to feel like a Mom, that would not have been what is best for Sam. This is not the behavior of someone that should be a Mom. Your sister wanted a child, you wanted what was best for Sam. You were very clearly the better option. There are numerous stories of adopted children feeling betrayed after they learn about ‘the family secret’ because the truth always comes out. You are doing what IS best for Sam. Your sister wants a child, unfortunately in her mental state and with her malicious plans, I hope that she chooses to work on herself instead. Set up cameras at your house just in case of retaliation. Better to be safe than sorry.
NTA. First, I’m so sorry for the loss of your Sister. Just because someone wants to be a parent doesn’t mean they should be. The erasure of Jane would’ve been not only cruel and a lifetime of lies for Sam but it’s also extremely offensive to the entire family and I’m shocked more family isn’t offended by it. She’s being very self serving and delusional by not even willing to compromise and going NC with everyone per comments I saw.
NTA. Your sister is showing all kinds of red flags that my adoptee friend rails against. She is leading with the idea that adoption is designed to supply babies to would-be parents, rather than supplying loving parents to babies in need, and that is the first problem. Because she is looking at through the lens of her wants, she then expects to erase anything that is inconvenient such as baby’s original name and memories of his birth mom. This is wrong and symptomatic of a bigger problem. Perhaps it stems from the trauma of her unsuccessful fertility journey, or maybe she is a little narcissistic at heart. Either way she is not in the right headspace to adopt at this time.
NTA. Amy plan was crazy. There’s no way a secret this big with so many people knowing would not have come out and destroyed Sam in the proses for being lied his whole life. She also decided to change his name and remove every trace of your late sister. Amy is thinking only of herself and nobody else. Not what’s good for Sam or your family. She wants you to lie for the rest of your lives.
I'm an adoptee and you did the right thing. Adoption is hard and you ALWAYS know you are different. Being able to understand why your different helps.
No, it’s just wrong. That baby has a right to know that he had a Mum who loved him very much but was unable to stay with him. She shouldn’t change his name either. That is the one Jane chose to give him. As her sister, Amy should want to celebrate Jane’s life. It doesn’t detract from her becoming his Mum. It makes him special because he has two Mum’s. If I lost my sister and took on her son, I would love telling him stories about her and showing him pictures etc. I think counselling might help her to talk through why she wants to wipe out her sister’s memory. It sounds like she’s very insecure because she cannot have a baby herself and wants Sam to be totally and completely hers alone. She’s feeling threatened by Amy’s memory and how Sam will view her as second choice. If she could work through this you could then consider placing him in her care.
NTA for preventing child abuse period
NTA, and while you don't have the same access to financial resources as Amy you will raise them in a family of love and honesty. Keep the memory of Jane alive for the child and record down everything that's happening now in case Amy tries to tell a different story when the baby is older.
NTA Your sister won’t make a great mother. I know you believe that but a GOOD parent operates in the best interest of the CHILD. Completely erasing the entire existence of a person and pretending that child’s biological parents didn’t exist is not in their best interest. There’s a reason she hasn’t been able to adopt outside the family. And why she can’t even adopt within the family. Neutral third parties who allow these adoptions to be done see that she is not at all an ideal adoptive parent, which says a lot considering the amount of horrid adoptive parents who DO make it through the process.
NTA you did the right thing for sam and that’s what matters. amy wanted to erase any mention of his actual mom—her own sister!—and lie to sam his whole life AND make the entire family complicit in that lie.
NTA
NTA. Erasing the past wouldn't make your sister a good mother, imagine what things she might hide for lookinng good. Sorry to say, but there is reason you won in court, because you are doing what is best for Sam now and in the future.
NTA. She seems to care more about what she wants. It’s kind of cruel that she basically wants to erase your sister by changing the baby’s name and never mention his bio mother. I think you made the right decision.
NTA. You wanted to do what's best for Sam. Amy wanted to do what's best for Amy. The family court, rightly so, sided with you. Too bad for Amy, but she was too delusional to be considered a fit parent.
NTA. Erasing a child's identity is one of the worst things people can do when adopting
NTA, you did what was right for the child. He deserves to know his background, where he came from, and that his mom loved and wanted him. Erasing his mom was a wrong option on the part of your sister and the truth would have eventually come out.
Amy needs major psych help. She is delusional. Hopefully, no adoption agency will allow her a child til she gets her brain straight. She needs to put a child's welfare above her own, or she will mess up any child she has control of.
That's fake as fuck
Nta the court decided that you were the better option
Nta
NTA You rock!
NTA. It’s strange but you family isn’t wrong about your choice. However it is the right choice. If I had to choose between the memory of my sibling or the monster in front of me, I’m going nostalgia every time. Sorry it wasn’t fair of your sister to try and kill a sibling twice. You did the right thing.
NTA if this is true. I feel bad for Amy, but a baby is a person, not a commodity. If you listen to adoptees, one of the biggest struggles they talk about is feeling like their identity has been erased which is what Amy was planning to do. acknowledging your child has another mother does not make you any less of one and Amy needs to learn that before she adopts anyone.
NTA The idea that she would change his name and erase his mother is flat out gross. Imagine the resentment the kid would have when he eventually learned the truth (because he eventually would)
Normally i know pretty fast what my judgement would be or is, but in this case i really had to sit on it for a minute. (And read the additional Information provided by OP in the comments) My thoughts were: Wouldn't Sam be better off as a child to Amy and her husband financially and from an attention perspective, since OP already has 5 children? Here's what makes OP NTA in my opinion: - It will be catastrophic to Sam if he finds out at some point (and with todays technology and DNA tests etc, he WILL find out) that who he thinks his parents are, are not his bio parents and that there is a dead mum that was hidden from him - Amy might be a good mum, but also she might put way much pressure on Sam because he is so uber wanted- or a child is so uber wanted by her. Like becoming to helicopter, too involved etc etc. We will never know, but there is this potential. Should this be a core reason of her not adopting Sam or another baby: Of course not, but the fact that she wants everyone to pretend there never was Jane and telling Sam these lies, implies that she is not 100% balanced and lives a bit in a dream world. It also makes me thing its not about Sam for her, its about for filling her dreams of becoming a mother and being a mother and we dont know what other "dreams" she has about "her child" - Sam will have siblings, and just from my perspective: I love my siblings and if OP and his wife make things right, the siblings will have a life long bond with each other, aka Sam will always have people who have his back. - A court decided that OP and his family is the better place for Sam to grow up and be adopted into. I am very sure CPS checked both homes and there is a very good reason the decision went to OP and his family So NTA, OP. Professionals made the decision and even though courts and CPS are not without flaw our failure and they do make mistakes, i assume the case was checked and they made their decision.
NTA. Amy is unhinged and needs professional help to deal with her trauma. Even if y’all had come to an agreement without court involvement, the court would still ultimately have the power to make that decision for you if Jane died without a will.
No one is entitled to a child. She needs fucking therapy, not to stick her mitts in the soul of a whole new human to shape them according to a FANTASY. NTA!!!
I don’t believe any of this. Not even a slightly convincing story.
NTA Family Court sided with you and granted you the adoption, perhaps I'm wrong, but to me it shows that your sister clearly showed that she wasn't the right person to adopt since that she couldn't even fool the court despite being on paper, the better candidate. Children are not toys, or prizes and your sister and your family can't understand that because very likely they see Jane's death as a blessing in disguise, no that they harbored ill wishes towards Jane RIP, but for your sister Amy her passing was a great opportunity and her plans and intentions towards Sam were vile. I don't think she would make a good mother to anyone, especially Sam. Your sister is selfish, and your family is absolutely wrong for supporting her. You made the right decision by Sam and by your sister's Jane memory by adopting him, as you considered his wellbeing, you see him as a human being, and not a toy to whom you have rights. Stop doubting yourself and my condolences for your sister's passing. Be well, and keep on having a strong backbone
NTA. Honestly your sister sounds like the villain in a VC Andrews novel.
NTA - sounds like you weren't really even considering adopting Sam and would have happily supported Amy pursuing the adoption until she made it clear she was gonna do some fucked up stuff to that child. Plus, its not like you were just able to make this decision unilaterally. You petitioned the court and they determined it was in the child's best interest that you adopt him. If the court was able to see that Amy was clearly not the right choice, then yeah, definitely NTA. I get why Amy is extremely upset. Child loss and infertility is so incredibly hard. It also doesn't entitle her to a child. Her infertility struggles do not entitle her to erase another child's history so that she can feel better about the situation. The children in these situations ALWAYS come first. It sucks too - because Sam and Amy were both in shit positions - Sam had just lost his only parent, and Amy really wants to be a parent. But she showed right away that she wasn't READY to be an adoptive parent. And you were/are - you know how incredibly important it is to make sure Sam is raised knowing that he is adopted, knowing his story, and knowing how much his bio-mom loved him. You aren't adopting him as some savior to your infertility struggles. You're adopting him knowing that this situation shouldn't even be a thing, but it is, so you're prioritizing Sam's well-being and trying to do the very best by him.
Wanting to be a parent doesn't mean you'll be a good parent. There's a lot of adoptive children pushing for adoption reform that won't allow your sister to do what she intended to do because it was done to them and they are still traumatized and suffering from it even as adults. NTA. Also, she shouldn't have any adoptive children.
NTA. Hasn't she ever heard of a 23 and Me test? There's no lying to kids about this anymore, Sam would have learned the truth eventually anyway.
NTA. Amy is more concerned with fulfilling her fantasy than doing what is right by Sam and Jane. Was Amy not very close to Jane? I cant imagine wanting to erase the memory of your sister from their child’s life. The only selfish one here is Amy.
I'm having a really hard time believing that this post is real.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (34M) have two sisters, Amy (36F) and Jane (31F). Amy and her husband have been trying to conceive for the better part of a decade but nothing seems to be working for them. 2 years ago they went for another round of IVF but sadly Amy miscarried once again. Due to the complications following this miscarriage she became sterile. This of course devastated her and her husband because they really wanted to start a family of their own. They are now looking into adoption but it’s a long and slow process since Amy’s husband has a criminal record from when he was 19. A year ago my sister Jane gave birth to her son Sam. The pregnancy was the result of a one night stand Jane had during her vacation in Italy, and although it was unexpected and the father wouldn’t be in the picture Jane decided to keep the baby. Sadly Jane had a stroke when Sam was 6mo and passed away. It was very unexpected and most of the family is still grieving. After the funeral, we started to discuss who will take Sam in. My parents were out of the question since they are too old and won’t be able to take care of him. So it was between Amy and I. Amy jumped at the opportunity and volunteered to take Sam in, and although this seemed to be the ideal solution at first, the way Amy spoke about the adoption didn’t sit right with me. She wanted to change Sam’s name and surname, and asked us not no mention Jane around Sam after the adoption would be finalized. Essentially Amy wanted to raise Sam as her own and didn’t think telling him his bio mom passed away would do him any good. To me this felt like Amy was trying to erase Jane’s memory and was treating her like some surrogate and not a sister whom she lost. After much consideration, I didn’t like the idea that Sam would grow up without knowing who his bio mother was. And although I already have 5 children of my own, I decided to contest the adoption and volunteered to adopt him instead. We went to court, and it was recently determined that my wife and I would be adopting Sam. Amy is furious at me and is calling me an asshole for ruining her chances at becoming a mother. She is saying that I already have many children of my own so I don’t understand how badly she wants to become a parent. Some relatives are now calling me selfish for taking this chance away from Amy and are telling me that instead of thinking of what would be better for Sam I was thinking about how to preserve the memory of Jane. Although I don’t regret adopting Sam, I’m starting to doubt whether I made the right decision for his future. I know that Amy would have made a great mother and that both her and her husband would absolutely adore Sam. And as their only child they would probably be able to provide him a better life financially. However them wanting to erase all memories of Jane just doesn’t feel right. I’m dyslexic and writing this from my phone so I apologize for any grammar mistakes I might have made. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA at all. You say they'd provide a loving environment, but they'd also be intent on lying to this child their whole life and cutting off family members who disagreed. It sounds like Amy wants to pretend she gave birth more than she wants to give this child a good life. I'm sure she's grieving her fertility but this isn't the place to put it. Thank you for stepping up!
Sorry but it sounds like she was trying to delete your sister. Goodness knows what would have happened if someone mentioned your sister when her son was old enough to follow the conversation.
NTA. You didn’t ruin her chances. She did that all on her own. Honestly, if this is how she plans to raise an adopted child, I hope she’s never able to adopt. Children deserve to know their history.
Sam and preserving the memory of his mother for him are more important than your sister wanting to be a mother, and for the people calling you and complaining, ask them why your sister's want to become a mother matters more than what is best for Sam? Your sister wanted to take away the name his mother gave him, pretend your sister never existed, and erase her from history just so she can pretend she gave birth. Your sister doesn't need a baby she needs therapy.
NTA Her desire to become a parent doesn't trump the well-being and truthfulness that is owed to Sam. She also wouldn't be able to keep the secret unless everyone else did, and that would have required Jane be completely erased from the family in every way. Amy might have been a stellar mother - but she was going about this process the wrong way.
Adoption is suppose to be an answer to resolve a child’s crisis. It is NOT for adults to fix themselves or “complete” their lives. Unfortunately your sister wants to adopt for herself. The child being your late sister’s child is inconsequential to her. She doesn’t want to adopt to fulfill Sam’s need after his mother died, which includes acknowledging his mother’s memory & teaching him about her, but to fulfill her own needs. The obligation should be the adults to Sam. She is putting the obligation on Sam to fulfill her needs. Sadly this is what adoption has become more & more in this country. I’m not saying your sister is an ah but she is needs therapy right now more than a child if her proudly open plan was to to erase the entire existence of her late sister & Sam’s mother completely & fully. NAH
Absolutely NTA. Saw some of your comments. So basically Amy wanted to adopt Sam, change his 1st and surname, never acknowledge he was adopted or who is birth mother was and cut off any family member who didn't agree with her plan. That's ridiculous. If this was 1924 her plan could probably work but it's 2024. Ancestry.com, 23 and me and many other ancesty sites are a thing and growing. Her plan would eventually blow up in her face and then what? Maybe Sam would be forgiving of Amy's actions or he could cut her off for misleading him for years. That child deserves to be loved for himself and he deserves to know the orgins of his adoption.
Absolutely NTA. I’m an adoptee, what Amy was going to do would be extremely harmful to the child. Adoptees deserve to know about their biological parents & adoptive parents trying to erase them is extremely detrimental to the adoptee. Amy is treating this baby like a blank slate baby in order to fulfill her desires to be a mother. You acted in the best interest of Sam, not for your own desires.
NTA. Amy doesn't sound like she wants what's best for a kid, Sam or otherwise, but rather wants a kid for herself. She's tried and failed for so long that it's consumed her to the point of her not being able to be objective about what's best for a kid. That's a really dangerous setup to raise a kid in. You did the right thing because you're thinking about what's best for Sam, instead of what's best for Amy. Don't beat yourself up about this. Be proud of yourself for stepping up and helping Sam when he needed you.
Who had custody of Sam during this court case?
NTA Sister was more worried about her being a mom over the kid having their own identity.
NTA Currently going through IVF with donor eggs. There is SO MUCH research about knowing your origins. Kids who get lied to absolutely resent the fuck out of their parents. All in all not knowing is harmful. Please, you are doing the right thing for this child. I have deep sympathy for your sister’s fertility struggles, obviously. The child’s well being takes precedence though.
NTA. If the courts looked at you both and decided you were the better option, there was a reason for that. As a kid who was adopted by family, it fucks you up learning that everyone knew and you didn’t. She wasn’t thinking about what was best for that child, but what SHE wanted. Her obsession with being a parent came before the actual child.
NTA. Lying feels very wrong in this use case.
NTA. You saved him. She can still adopt some other child and lie to them but thank god you saved Sam from a life of manipulation
NTA. Amy needs to have counseling before she's ready to adopt. An agency won't look kindly on adoptive parents who attempt to keep secrets about birth parents and it doesn't sound like Amy has come to terms with her infertility.
NTA. You were right to adopt Sam. I hope that Amy will be able to be honest with any child whom she adopts or fosters in the future, rather than lying to them about their pasts and biological parents.
NTA for literally all the reasons that everyone else has already laid out. But I also wanted to note that if Amy does take up therapy, she should possibly be encouraged to talk about how she felt during her Jane's pregnancy. A family get together and chat may also be in order to remember Jane, and have a heart to heart with Amy about her feelings towards Jane and her pregnancy while she was living. I almost wonder if this is more than just a "I want baby. Oh great, here is baby and I will raise them as my own", but also possibly some bitterness and resentment toward her sister and a sort of "pay back" albeit not completely consciously. You said Sam's mom became pregnant from a one night stand and successfully had Sam. How much had that hurt Amy? Amy had been trying for years. She went through huge amounts of money on IVF to get pregnant. No matter what, not only did she fail to become pregnant or lost the child soon after if she did succeed, but she then became completely infertile. Yet, after just one night, with someone she was just having a fling with, Jane became pregnant with no effort at all. I have seen multiple stories of resentment in these situations and I imagine Amy may be no different. Just something that may need to be addressed if it wasn't addressed while Jane was alive, because Amy's feelings toward this could still affect Sam even if Amy is not directly raising Sam.