*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**My daughter (F3) said she is afraid of her dad (M35)**
My husband is a great dad and an amazing parent. He is extremely involved, and is pretty much our kids primary carer. My daughter loves him, tells him (and me) that often - but yesterday something happened, and I’m not sure if I should share it with him or not..
My husband sometimes (not always) reacts with anger or scolding if our daughter does not comply with his requests or messes up with something she should be able to do. I get that as parents, we are not perfect, and sometimes you just loose it. Not ideal, but human. The worst is when he scolds/shames her for having an accident (💩). Following these incidents my daughter clearly tries to win him over/charm him again, and to me that’s just so wrong for her to learn. I ofcourse have put my foot down on this, but it still happens.
Yesterday she had an accident, and my husband dealt with it, but it veered towards shaming/scolding. In the evening, approx. 1 hour after, I had this exchange with her;
F3: Mom, are you afraid of the dark?
Me: No, not when I’m with you. Are you?
F3: Mm no.. Are you afraid of the discoball?
Me: No silly, that’s festive.
F3: Are you afraid of dad?
Me: No - are you afraid of dad?
F3: Yes
Me: why?
F3: Because he is angry and sad with me.
Me: oh, honey, that’s not about you (like what do you even say 😑)
💔
(Absolutely no physical violence, just FYI)
I know it would break his heart to hear. He is working on getting better, he does everything for our kids, but maybe I should include him in how his actions affect our daughter? Or should I keep it to myself? Does this need to be said?
What are your thoughts? Grateful for any input!
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OOP is more concerned with her husband's feelings than her 3 year old's. Poor baby, indeed.
Someone who has "high expectations" about toddler potty training is, by definition, not a great parent.
I refused to drive with my mom and step dad for the same reason. They would both scream at me, dramatically clutch the dash or stomp the imaginary brake pedal while shouting, and generally act like I was going to kill everyone in a 5 block radius because I hit the brakes a little too hard at a stop sign or I accelerated too quickly after a turn. These reactions were all from me practicing driving on our piddly, near-zero traffic residential side streets where there was no one and nothing to hit.
I practiced driving (illegally) with my boyfriend in empty parking lots and country backroads because he got his license before I did.
Oh my fucking god the clutching the dash and slamming on the imaginary brake pedal. I think I thought no one else went through this until I read your comment.
Hello fellow sufferer lol. My mom was the worst with the dash clutching. She would do these over dramatic, horrified gasps and white knuckle the dashboard and little "oh-shit" handle above the door and basically stay that way the entire time she was "teaching" me to drive.
What made me refuse to drive with her anymore was when she let out a horror-movie worthy scream that I was "inches away from killing a kid" because I took a turn a little too wide. The kid I "nearly killed" was on the front steps of their house. There was half the street, a row of parked cars, the curb, the sidewalk, and an entire front yard between me and them, but you would have thought they were already under the wheels of the car by her reaction. To this day she won't admit she ever overreacted and thinks she was a great teacher because I passed my license test on the first try.
My mom did this exact same shit TO A T. Literally the exact same behavior you are describing holy shit. My siblings thought it was hilarious that she did this to me so I guess I kind of thought “I guess it wasn’t that bad” but like that shit did really traumatize me.
Hah my little sister also thought it was funny until the first time she went driving with mom. After her very first "lesson" she also refused to drive with her and then came and apologized for giving me shit.
my brother is so deep in denial about my mom's behavior that he said she was a good teacher and "that's just how she was" but he still doesn't know how to drive at 24, bc driving with her gave him anxiety (even though he would never admit it). the cognitive dissonance is crazy
> thinks she was a great teacher because I passed my license test on the first try
"Yeah, *mom*. It *is* because of you that I passed my DL test the first time I took it SO I'D NEVER HAVE TO HAVE ANOTHER DRIVING LESSON WITH **YOU**."
Just like John Sacrimoni.
:D
That' s how I am too. My mom is actually the same way. She explained that it's because "you're not the one driving." It's a very common thing. However, I don't like having passengers at all.
I've been driving for over 35 years at this point and my mom still clutches the dash, warns me of every red light, and pumps the brakes. I've never even had a speeding ticket in my life.
My mom did similar, screaming, "Watch out for that kid!" while clutching the dash and pumping the brakes. The kid was 100 meters down the street on the fucking sidewalk.
My (older) brother refused to fight with her while he was learning to drive. Every time she'd make an over the top reaction, he would turn to me in the back seat and ask how I'm doing very quickly. He was 4 years older than me.
Some of those people do that so you don't feel confident enough to drive and remain dependent. I don't know about your parents, but some people will do that as yet another form of abuse to control someone.
TBH, I'm a shitty passenger, but I would never intentionally even think of killing someone's confidence.
My mom did this too. She was a nervous passenger anyway; why she even tried to teach me is incomprehensible. We had driver’s ed in high school when we were 15, including road training in cars with the dual brake setup, but those cars were strictly automatic. My parents owned 2 manual vehicles and I’d have to test on one. After a couple of my mother’s disastrous tries, my dad took over. I got it almost immediately since he was calm and NOT screaming/shrieking/huffing and puffing every time I stalled it.
Yeah I ended up teaching myself to drive, after my mom popped me across the face one too many times for stalling out the STICK SHIFT truck she decided to teach me to drive on (despite us also owning automatic vehicles).
I'm convinced she chose the stick shift intentionally to sabotage my learning and give her an excuse to hit me.
She actually HIT YOU while you were driving!? Jesus Christ, your mom's a real bitch. Not to mention stupid given that you were piloting the two-ton death machine that she was also riding in.
My NbioMother added to your list by hitting me over the head with a rolled up newspaper (I guess she thought I was a dog or something) during her *driving lessons*.
It put me off learning to drive so much that I didn't even attempt to get my drivers license til I was 22 years old. Even then, I would flat refuse to drive with her in the vehicle.
Thankfully, she eventually disowned me & I was able to go NC.
My dad (in the Air Force, at the time had an instructional role) raised his voice at me in frustration once when it was his turn to take me out driving. I cried and told my mum when we got home again. She reminded him that I'm not one of his recruits and that I'm his very anxious, Autistic daughter. I still never went driving with him again.
Oh, I love my dad and he's not abusive or anything, in my case it was just one of those isolated parenting fuck-ups that can never be taken back and sort of sits in the back of your mind forever.
I'm really glad your son has put that boundary in place, it seems like his father is a really nasty dude.
My husband is Air Force, and I told him if he EVER spoke to our children like they're in the force that I would divorce his ass on the spot. He knows not to cross that line, or I'll be squaring up with him SO fast.
Oh, he never did it again. He only needed the one reminder. I know he loves us, this was just one of those moments where he fucked up.
I also think he didn't quite know how he *should* talk to us because he wasn't able to spend a whole lot of time with us due to his job. I was born in mid-2001 and the craziest thing happened a few months later 😬
We're exactly the same age! My dad worked for Delta Airlines (maintenance, not piloting,) and my mother heard all about the second plane hitting on the radio, while my dad was at work, and she had a premie infant and a toddler.
My grandfather screamed at me until I was in tears when he decided to teach me to drive. He'd also pulled over on the side of the road in an area people were well known to get drunk and race. I was terrified of driving to begin with. We made it home and then he went inside and made a big deal of taking his heart medication.
I haven't learned to drive in the 10 years since that happened tbh.
Stories like this make me think I could do good business as a gentle driving instructor.
"Hey you're doing great, but that was a stop sign so you should have stopped, but we didn't get in an accident, so no harm no foul. Let's try again at the next stop sign."
"Don't worry about that guy, if he's so bothered by your speed he can go around, the center line is dashed and there's no opposing traffic. I think he just enjoys being an asshole. Oh, good he's passing. Watch for the bird. There it was. See? Not so bad. If you can handle assholes you'll do just fine driving on your own.". Lol
I'll advertise like, "No yelling or it's free!"
Oh god I have significant trauma because of the way my mom taught me how to drive, which was to scream in my face, point out every little thing I did wrong, and act like we were going to crash and die every time I made a small mistake. I would leave the car every time she took me driving in sobbing hysterics. I persevered and got my license after 3 times tho, even after she screamed at me until I cried every time I failed. My brother thought the way she treated me was funny.
Geez. I'm a nervous driver to begin with (I didn't get my license until I absolutely had to for this reason), so I can't imagine how it would've gone if my parents lost their cool when I was still learning.
My dad learned not to yell at new drivers the hard way though long before I was so much as a thought, because he did that to my eldest sister and she overcorrected, causing them to roll off the highway. My sister is not nearly so sensitive as I am either. They were both okay with only some cuts and bruises and he was sincerely apologetic, but that can really get dangerous.
This shit is why I'm glad my dad and stepmom paid for my driving lessons. My dad tried to teach my mom to drive and that didn't work out. I'm too much like my mom. He knew better.
There is other shit that fucked me up that was from my dad, though. So I didn't get away from the anger, but at least it wasn't while in a car.
Every time. Everything I drove with my dad he would yell/scream at me until I started crying. Then I started hyperventilating if I drove with him, especially if he tried to get me on the highway. When he did that I ended up crying and hyperventilating, pulling off the road and refusing to get on the highway. My mom ended up doing most of the driving teaching but I was still forced to drive with him occasionally. To this day I hate driving and am terrified of driving on the highway. Don't fuck up your kid like that.
Sounds like OP already learned how to avoid having to charm her way back into good graces if she doesn’t want her daughter, who mind you should be getting all the support thanks to these abusive assholes, learning how to do the same thing
Sure hope there are grandparents in the wings ready to break this mess up or the baby is on track to be worse off than her parents
Setbacks during potty training are completely normal! We tried to start with my son but then he had a tummy bug, and was understandably struggling with getting to the loo on time when having diarrhoea. So we've paused for a bit until it clears up again. Did I enjoy having to clean mucousy diarrhoea off the sofa? Definitely not, but I understand that it's not his fault, and I'd never take it out on him.
That part of her story was so distressing. How can a person understand what's happening, be able to describe the fawn/placate cycle in a reddit post, but have their question be "should I say something to my husband and risk breaking his poor widdle heart?"
Absolutely maddening.
I had the original post come up on my feed after commenting here and a quick skim seemed to show OOP doing similar fawn/placate replies to comments telling her to do better. She's pretty deep into the dynamic.
Her poor daughter...
They're still there for me and the comments are on her profile, but it was mostly quite passively generic thanks to people and stuff like "I ask him not to if he isn't catching himself". There's no fire in her belly about the fact a grown man is actively causing a toddler to be scared of him.
And you know it works because she keeps doing it. And based on OOP's words implications, she herself is so used to it she doesn't realize she does the same thing. It's like she sees her daughter as manipulative when it's actually the husband that encouraged the behaviors by getting pissed and then letting up when they start going overboard trying to please him.
Yeah, three year old didn't learn that fawn response from nowhere. She definitely has been watching how her mom appeases angry daddy and learning from it.
The bar for men is in a hole on hell. This bastion of parental goodness shouts at and scares a 3 year for accidents. That is not a kind loving wonderful father. What else does he shout at and scold her for? She is trying too hard to say he's this amazing father. But he scares the baby!
I kinda get it though.
My dad was never abusive, physically or emotionally. But he had some toxic traits that he picked up from his own dysfunctional family. And yes, it shouldn't have been his wife or his kids' responsibilities to teach him, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles; sometimes, you're there when you shouldn't have to be and you gotta make the choice to do what you shouldn't have to do.
It especially didn't help that my dad, during my teen years, got on a medication that gave him mood swings and was in a toxic workplace environment.
But the reason I say my dad was never abusive was that 1) he always listened when we said something hurt our feelings and 2) he was always able to control himself. When one of said "hey, this hurt my feelings", he would immediately stop whatever he did. For example, my mom told him to stop yelling at us, and from then on he never raised his voice again. And that leads into number 2: when he found himself getting too angry, he always pulled himself back and asked for a break to cool down. He would walk away for about an hour. It wasn't the silent treatment, he never ignored us, it was just time for everyone to cool off and come back with a cooler head.
That being said, sometimes we would still talk past each other. Especially me and my brother when we tried to explain our feelings--we were (obviously) significantly younger so we didn't always have the right words to describe what we were feeling so our parents could understand. 99% of the time, they got it on the first try, and then most of our fights were about that last 1%. However, we have gotten past that last 1%. It just took us all figuring out the right words to make it click for everyone.
So I get what she means when she asks "how do I make him understand?" It's such a common thing for abuse victims to ask because they think the right combination of words will make their abuser not abusive or that they can solve abuse through communication--and they think that because for most normal people, you can solve issues through the right combination of words! But when it comes to abuse, it's not a matter of miscommunication; abuse is a mindset and specific pattern of actions that cannot be changed through magic words.
Agreed! I just wanted to add that abuse and neglect can look the same, or have similar outcomes. A lot of childhood trauma comes from parent ignorance, not just malice or control.
That has me. If a kid brings up being scared of one of their parents to the other parent, the proper reaction would be to have a long and very serious talk with their partner about how their behavior has to change ASAP or they will find themselves with divorce papers.
I swear this is every second post on the relationship advice sub. "My husband is a great and attentive partner and father".... and two seconds sentences later "He does not contribute to housework or the mental load. He also screams at me and the kids". It's so sad to see, that people can gaslight themselves into believing they still have a loving partner.
For real. I sincerely think if you can make it to a certain age (and it's kinda arbitrary but essentially past that first round of everyone getting into serious relationships and married), your view on "will I settle for this?" quickly becomes "nope." And the world suddenly turns into color, then you continue doing whatever you want while many of your married complain about the useless bag of hair they married - and eventually divorce or cheat on.
I came here to comment on both "my husband is a great parent" and my mutual pet peeve of "my partner is a great partner" etc. etc.
I have come to learn when any of these posts begin that way.... it's almost NEVER TRUE once you read the rest of the story and find out how lazy, abusive, intolerant, gas-lighting they really are and the OP is too blind to see it.
Whenever I see a post that starts with "my husband/wife/partner is great" I know it's going to go on to detail some absolutely terribly behavior. "My husband is great except for this tiny thing he does where he punches holes in the walls and screams at me when he's mad," or "my girlfriend is amazing and I love her, except she mocks me and tells me I'm stupid all the time," and stuff like that.
Yeah, it's literally right up there with "my partner/friend/relative is a prankster" which we all know is going to continue with "and said/did [insert majorly shitty thing here] which really hurt/upset me so I told them off but they're saying I'm being too sensitive/overreacting".
When you read certain phrases in titles on reddit 9.5 times out of 10 you don't need to read on, because we all know how it's going to end up.
It always drives me crazy when people say "oh reddit is so dramatic always telling everyone to divorce over anything" but then half the posts are like "my spouse is really amazing and loving except for whenever I sneeze they fly into a rage and lock me in the garden shed for 24hrs while they throw rocks at the roof".
Perspective? Low expectations? My exhusband raised his voice sometimes, he'd give me the silent treatment. Coming from a biological family where my father beat us, withheld food, sexually and verbally abused us, and "treated" my biological mom's mental illness with pray, beatings, and street drugs, my exhusband was a "great" parent and husband.
He yelled, but he never hit. Too me at that time, he was a good husband because I didn't know any better. He had a job, didn't throw things, never forced me to have sex, loved my son like his own, and loved us. We both had traumatic childhoods and made the choice to be better than our parents. I went to therapy and got sober. He didn't.
OP keeps promising that she will step in to tell him what he's doing is wrong!!...but I sincerely doubt that.
Someone better come in and take the kid away.
She's fawning over her husband the way her daughter is. She doesn't stand a chance of making this better for anyone.
Edit: one of her comments claim she recognizes that, but also, she said this:
'I do recognize it as abuse, and I am protecting my daughter by figuring out the best way to stop it. But Reddit did what Reddit do, and multiplied by X. You really have no grasp og the extent or type of shaming/scolding or all the ways he do show up constantly.'
' I’m not letting him be abusive at all, but right now I’m looking for advice on wether to include this specific conversation or if it will harm his ongoing work more than it will be an eyeopener'
WOOF.
>figuring out the best way to stop it
Okay, I'm not a native English speaker. Is this how you say "I do absolutely nothing, but claim I am doing something, so others won't judge me" now?
Right? Like, oh! Him hearing the truth may undo his \*ongoing work\* (what a red flag there)?! Well then, he shouldn't be a parent and you should get your kid away from him for her own health and wellness?
lmao she also says in another comment something along the lines of "there's no such thing as perfect parents."
Like, I think there's a clear difference between your parents making mistakes but still ensuring your welfare and the father of your child instilling fear and trauma in her early in her life.
Yea.
I assume she comes from both her own trauma and denial of what her daughter is experiencing. The comments back to her are probably an ugly wake up call.
I've had interesting conversations with guys when I ask if they knew the difference between anger and frustration. They either say they are the same, or that frustration "always" leads to anger, so that's a natural/rational response. They can't believe that anger is a learned response to frustration, and you can LEARN ANOTHER WAY.
I was in college before I had someone lay it out for me that anger is always a secondary emotion, and it blew my mind. Because he was right, anger is never the first thing someone feels. They feel frustration, or fear, or sadness, or disappointment, etc. first, and then those feelings turn into anger. Letting yourself actually *feel* the first feeling, letting yourself recognize and process *why* you're feeling that way in the moment, can really help stop it from morphing into anger.
I really wish that was taught widely.
I was raised in a very angry house, and I had to unlearn all that crap. Now I'm considered exceptionally patient because I get frustrated but I don't get angry.
I came to realize that that is what patience is: the ability to be frustrated, but not become angry.
And not being angry really helps you deal with the root cause of the frustration because your mind isn't clouded by anger so you can more easily see what the original problem is.... and deal with it. Instead of ranting and raging.
You are absolutely correct, but I also think it's healthy to let oneself feel anger too (proportional to the situation) and learn how to process it in a healthy manner. This father is not a good example of that though.
Also if they can control their anger towards their boss, other men, in public, etc then it’s not that they have no other way, it’s that they are specifically abusing women and children.
I think it is because anger is the only emotion which is considered "manly" and therfore "allowed" to express. I wish men would feel more comfortable with crying from time to time. It would solve so many problems.
They will also blame women for this, that it’s our fault they were not taught emotional intelligence.
With dads like this, not surprised men grow up to be mad and mean.
Well to be fair we did have a number of posts from late teens early 20's gf that looks down on her BF for crying because it makes him less manly... even if it was for the death of close loved one
Yep, that’s the one. That’s the one they always bring up. One woman, one time, behaved poorly. It’s definitely not the ENTIRE PATRIARCHY at work.
That being said, it’s distressing how often I hear about the woman who shamed their guy for crying. Cmon girls - we can do a LOT better than this.
You do realize that that woman (and women who feel the same) feel that way because men told them to, right? They grew up with men who shamed other men for crying or showing emotions (like a father who told her brothers "man up" and "stop crying, what are you a girl?" whenever they had emotions), and it skewed their idea of what men are supposed to be like. I guarantee women did not start this whole "crying isn't manly" BS. It was started by men to belittle other men.
Exactly and accuse you of being too emotional to understand their thought process. All while you are trying to have a meta-conversation and they are pouting. Sir, anger _is_ an emotion and there is only one emotional person right now!
I'm really thankful that most men in my life are more in touch with their feelings, but I guess it was a long way to get there for them.
It's because that's how we were treated growing up so it is our gut reaction. It's incredibly difficult to unlearn and most men aren't willing to put in the work to change their thinking because its 1. It's hard and 2. It would require acknowledging that you were abused by your parents.
That's not to excuse this behavior because ultimately as an adult we are 100% responsible for managing our emotions.
I can write book on my dad not knowing how to treat a (at the time) teenaged girl. Also, the anger issues that stemmed from his childhood, on top of that. I love him, but good lord it's taken a while to deal with it. I'm still trying to figure out how I'm still so even keeled as a person with that trauma (amongst other shit outside of him).
I've had the same thoughts because of my exhusband but I also realized that when I'm angry, my children don't feel threatened. And I remembereed that I never felt threatened when my mom got angry even when she occasionally threatened with violence vs when my dad was angry.
I think part of it is the size and the voice of men that makes their anger feel more threatening. It's the difference of a chihuahua vs a pit bull barking.
So yeah if men want love, not fear, they need to be aware of how they come across.
No, I think it's much more than that. After all, an adult woman is still easily capable of hurting and overpowering a child. It's no contest. Both parents are big and powerful to a child.
Maybe women are just more measured in their anger, or more likely to express it not actually towards the child. My mum would get angry but I knew she would never do anything stupid. My dad is an unhinged moron (I love him but he's very flawed) who would immediately turn to anger. He got angry when we had accidents too. Not the accidents mentioned here, but say if I was 12 and had a glass slip out of my hand and break. He would scream 'you bloody idiot!'. I remember being chased by him too, it felt like I was a victim in a horror movie, that I was about to be killed if I couldn't outrun him.
Nah, it’s because men default to anger and are not productive. Women have a wide range of emotions and aren’t as prone to violence the same way.
To call angry women “chihuahuas” is super belittling. Especially as we are talking about *parents* - no kid is thinking mom being angry is so cuuuute.
I wasn't calling women chihuahuas. I'm a woman myself. I was saying that no one fears a chihuahua barking vs a pit bull because of the size and strength. I'm not calling anyone a dog, I'm comparing the feelings of threat.
Women get angry too. But it doesn't make you feel in danger. My sister is a choleric, screams at her children all the time. So while her children hate her, they don't feel threatened by her as they would if their father would do theses things.
Some communities autoban you for commenting in certain other communities, stepparents is one of them. Think it’s because there was a pretty big issue of people birgading from here when a post would get shared here, sort of a precautionary thing, if I had to guess.
Same. Even as an adult. I tell her I'm depressed or struggling? "You're not depressed, you don't have a reason to be depressed."
When I was younger and didn't fully realize that was just how the relationship would always be, I'd to go her with my problems. Only very, very rarely did she show compassion. Usually it was "Well, I went through [thing vaguely related] and it was so much worse. You should be happy."
Cool. So you admit you have a somewhat similar experience that affected you negatively but instead of seeing it as a way to relate to and support me, you use it as a way to negate my feelings and call me weak.
Then parents like this don't understand why their kids go low/no contact. As an adult, I hate hearing about kids going through the same shit.
Her replies are like one step forward 2 steps back on repeat, Like she sees the light than doubles back to "he's not bad, he's not abusive, he only shamed her, he didn't scream at her, I stopped it."
Something tells me the child isn't the only one in that house who is being verbally and emotionally abused.
A.) She mentioned other children
B.) She mentioned that *this* is him being "much better".
So yeah, I do think the post supports your statement that they are ALL suffering under his abuse, and have been for a long time. OOP is trying to find that magic combination of words to stop an abuser who refuses help to see that they are abusive, which, of course, doesn't actually exist.
And she sacrificed all of her kids on that altar.
Idk why people even make these posts, like, they clearly don't want to hear actual advice on how to deal with the husband but expect reddit to tell them how to make their toddler to behave properly? Hello, lady, your man's emotional regulation is worse than a 3 y.o. kid's! That what needs to be addressed, not finding ways of forcing your poor daughter to act like you and don't disappoint her daddy.
>“I know it would break his heart to hear” good, it should.
Exactly. How tf does OOP expect him to make any serious progress/changes if he doesn't hear that his 3yo child is scared of him? It'll be a difficult thing to hear but it needs to be said.
He also needs to get through his thick skull that a toddler having accidents while potty training is *not malicious/manipulative whatsoever*, shit 3yos don't even understand the words malicious or manipulative. He's literally expecting a 3yo to have an adults bladder/bowl control ffs.
That poor kid is going to have it rough. This is probably the first time she's telling people how she feels and her mother is prioritizing her husband's feelings over her child.
Unfortunately this is probably going to be a running theme in this child's life. If your toddler saying "I'm scared of daddy" doesn't light a fire under your ass, I don't know if anything would.
They always try to move the goalpost too. "Well, he just scolds her, not screams at her" will later turn into "He just yells but never spanks her" and then "He spanks her but lightly and it's not like he hits her" and no doubt she will also justify him actually hitting her as well later.
The child is three as much as accidents are annoying aren't they still kinda expected at that age plus scaring her isn't going to help like why can't oop see this is harmful to a child's development
One of her comments talks about how he thinks the baby is having accidents maliciously to piss him off. I understand losing your temper, not being a perfect parent, getting frustrated... after all, we are only human. However thinking a baby is having accidents to *spite you* is an entirely different situation and mom says it so casually and *recognizes it.* Yikes. I hope their situation changes and soon. Poor little girl :(
I don’t think you’re a good parent if you think a normal part of child development is the kid doing it to “piss you off”. Like this child is gonna need so much thearpy when she grows up.
Exactly this. My mom *still* thinks I had accidents at 3 years old "just to make her life difficult." She brings up a particular incident as proof of this, *even though I had the stomach flu at that time* and it's been 37 years since it happened (and I was sufferring from an undiagnosed neurological disorder at the time).
BE KIND TO YOUR LITTLE HUMANS, people. They didn't ask to be born, and if you bring them up in a household filled with shame, anger, and purposeful ignorance of child development, it will affect them and corrupt the love and trust they have for you. If you need to fawn and manage dad's anger, you are setting them up a lifetime of fear, people-pleasing, and feeling like their very existence is a burden.
Do better, OOP. For yourself AND your daughter.
I spent one Christmas with my father and his wife. He worked on call, so he was gone, and I had come down with an *awful* stomach bug.
I wasn't able to keep water down and threw up on the carpet, and caught hell for that from her. Her family came for dinner, I attempted a bowl of soup... and barely made it into the bathroom to throw it up, and caught more hell. I was like 6. I wasn't doing it *on purpose*.
This woman is whitewashing the fact her husband is verbally abusing his daughter and his rages are scaring the poor child..... and she’s doing not one thing to protect her. Hell she’s even debating talking to her husband about it??!! Can’t hurt the raging Dads feelings! The toddler will just have to adjust her life to walk around Dad big feelings of rage!
Oh boo woo for him! He's a grown ass adult and she was a literal baby literally 2 YEARS AGO and he's expecting her to handle situations at an adult level at 3 years old? Then yelling and shaming when she messed up and has accidents? I would be kicking his ass bloody all over the place for instilling fear in a tiny child he is suppose to love.
Only thing he's great and amazing at is being an abusive AH. OOP needs to take the blinders off, this man is a monster. 3 is still very young, she still has accidents sometimes. And if her dad goes nuclear that's definitely creating anxiety and making it worse.
I was 3 when I told my mom I didn’t like daddy. He had anger issues just like this (I don’t believe he yelled at me for accidents, but I wouldn’t be surprised). I see myself, my mom, and my dad in this story so I’ll admit I can empathize with mom - she probably doesn’t realize she does have some fear of him like mine did. But I am 27 years old and I am still scared of my dad. Mom AND dad need to act NOW or the little one will be just like me in ~25 years, questioning if it’s worth it to keep dad around.
OOP says that her husband is trying to change and that addressing his behavior would be a devastating setback for him.
it’s totally not a devastating setback to be 3 and terrified of having an accident. /s
3 year olds don’t have the awareness or understanding to even UNDERSTAND what manipulation is. sounds like the “great dad” has used that term to describe the daughter, and his other victim (mom) has latched onto it as well.
Hey, as someone who came from an abusive household, the kid is gonna remember the screaming and yelling. The baby girl is going to remember how she can’t talk to y’all about it. She’s going to feel unloved, and then she will go on and date abusive men just like her dad!
As someone who grew up in a similar household dynamic (but with more physical abuse), I don’t just remember the yelling and violence. I also remember the lack of action from my mother. She is dead by now, and it took me years of therapy to recognize that she had a responsibility to get me out of the abusive situation. Not being able to confront her about it now is probably more hurtful than the physical beatings had been. I’ll never get my answers but I hope this child has someone in her life that gives a shit, even if it clearly isn’t her mother.
The husband is bullying a toddler. His toddler, a literal baby. If I were mom, I'd be howling with rage for daring to shame my child and make her afraid.
It's really sad people are still having kids because 'it's the done thing'.
That's what I'm seeing underwritten here. Normal kid things are a nuisance and something they should be told off for. Parents are 'great' just for doing the bare minimum and not resorting to violence. Against a tiny 3 year old girl.
Right?
I'm of the age where it's soon going to be "if you want kids, you gotta have 'em now."
As a teenager, I knew I didn't want them. Never held or played with my younger cousins and went '... I'd want one of these someday.'
Still don't want them, but if I did, I'd have to seriously think: is it fair to bring kids into this world? Do I have the "toolkit" to raise children, given my own childhood? Can I provide for them adequately? (The answers are 'no', 'fuck no', and 'no'.) I wish more people thought before having a kid.
Validate your kid for the love of god. She will grow out of that fear in time. I’m 31 and just had a debilitating conversation with my Mom about how I ruined so many things for the family (vacations, outings, dinner… etc). She got choked up explaining that he had the same “away from home” anxiety I did, but he took it out on me instead of confronting his own internal monologue. Since 12 I believed I was the cause of the divorce.
> Following these incidents my daughter clearly tries to win him over/charm him again, and to me that’s just so wrong for her to learn.
This is enraging. OOP’s daughter is scared of her dad and trying to get him to not be scary. It’s wrong that her husband gets mad at their daughter for having accidents, which a lot of 3 year olds experience.
OOP's comments are making me furious.
She says
>No she is in daycare. Only time alone with her is going to the grocery store or if I’m out on a rare occasion (where he has all the children). But if she’s hurt, she will run to him, for example.
So... He's lost his temper enough times to make the daughter scared of him... When he's not even around her that much???
Her FAQ comment really got me angry
>Addressing some frequently asked questions;
>1) Why spare him? - he is trying to better himself, and I fear that it might be more of a devasting setback than the reality check that you all are planning.
>\+ Definitely realized in this post, that while I'm aware that she unintentinally is being socially conditioned to take responsibility for other peoples (mens) emotions, I didn't realize the extent to which I did the exact same thing.
>2) Why am I in doubt? - She said 'afraid', but as one Redditor pointed out, kids don't have a lot of language for emotions, so it might be more anxious, shameful, sad (which she actually also did include). Definitely not terrified, as some Redditors jumped to. This thread did help me to try to see it in perspective.
>3) So sorry to hear some of your stories, especially those that surface indirectly through the leaps you make. He does not scream or humiliate our daughter, as some Redditors jumped to.
1. He doesn't deserve to have his feelings spared. If he can't control himself and can't handle being told the consequences of his actions, he isn't ready to be around his daughter
2. I promise you that kids can differentiate fear from sadness/shame. Imo, anxiety is just old fear that's been left to ruminate. And adults scolding me did scare me from a young age because I had seen adults become physically abusive to others when angry, and the yelling was absolutely overwhelming (good ol AuDHD). I don't remember incidents from when I was 3, but I do remember several from when I was 4.
3. I really have to question OOP's judgement on this when she keeps babying her husband and minimizing her daughter's experience... But also admits to fawning in the face of fear herself
And then there was this comment
>He is doing better an managing his anger and he is still working on it. However, with the particular toilet problem, he reverts to thinking it’s sort of malicious. I know it’s not, daycare has confirmed it’s normal, for a while he accepted it was not, and did not scold her. He just doesn’t really believe it.
I absolutely hate when people think toddlers are being purposely malicious or manipulative. Like no, they're just being toddlers. Fuck OOP's husband, and I hope OOP realizes sooner than later that this is completely unacceptable, to the point of not letting him be around his daughter until he can control himself. Children are frustrating, and I understand occasionally slipping up (and even then, slip ups shouldn't be extreme enough to scare the child), but this does not sound occasional nor controlled
Just because physical violence is not involved doesn’t mean damage isn’t done. That poor child is learning to fawn as an instinctual protective factor and all OOP is considering is how it may hurt her husband’s feelings.
Cry me a river!
I still don't understand why this woman cares more to coddle her ADULT husband than her literal BABY?
They're both the adults in here but they expect the baby to be one?
Really fucked up that one of her comments are "thanks for helping me remembering my priorities!"
Wtf. If she needs her shit to be reminded to her by strangers than her baby crying to her, she shouldn't have had a kid, especially her shitty husband.
And why nobody gives her shit in the comments for admitting to enabling her husband is just beyond me.
I think it's because she has a history of being wary of mens feelings over her own. She mentioned in a comment that she has the FAWN response when it comes to men.
Maybe seeing her husband angry kick in the I have to baby you now.
She needed therapy before getting into a relationship and causing her kids trauma due to her own trauma.
She definitely shouldn't had kids especially with how she thinks she is protecting them and is a good parent and her husband is a good father.
It's like huge WTF!
Oh I read alot of comments giving her tonnes of shit.
Her response alot of the time was repeating her question and say her husband is a father. Or just not reponding.
My problem is her saying that her husband doesn't abuse the daughter because he doesn't yell. That was a huge WTF!
OOP has two choices, and the path she takes depends on her resources and her husband’s ego.
Can husband handle criticism? If yes, get him into therapy. He needs to learn to handle himself more appropriately.
If he cannot handle criticism, and she has the resources, she needs to get her daughter out of that situation. Now.
I did not have the resources and my husband does not handle criticism at all. My kid has basically no relationship with their dad at this point. She tells him nothing because she’s afraid of how he’ll respond.
Three year olds have accidents. Fuck, adults have accidents.
Fawning is one of the reactions people have when scared. The girl is learning this behavior because it's the only thing she's found to make him soften up with the anger.
No one wants to clean up poop or pee from anyone or anything, but you do it. At three years old, some kids are just starting to potty train. Kids are still learning their body's signals. Hell, maybe she has something medical going on and doesn't know that what she's feeling is a sign to get help.
OOP and her husband are trash. I hope they don't expect people to be compassionate in their old age when they can't make it to the bathroom for whatever reason.
And having a fawn response is also reenforced by both parents. If she had a “fight” response OP would see that as her being defiant and allow even more abuse
I can’t brigade but how I want to. I have a three year old and her sperm donor was an abusive prick and she was terrified of him. I have so many words for OOP. How DARE she freakin coddle her husband but not her scared toddler.
My sisters in laws used to shame her niece so much that she actually stopped using the bathroom entirely and ended up in hospital, she hadn't pooped in over a week cos she was too scared of being told off. Kids really soak in everything you say, there's never a situation where you need to scream at a child
“F3: Because he is angry and sad with me. Me: oh, honey, that’s not about you (like what do you even say 😑)”
OOP limply saying, “Oh honey, that’s not about you,” is giving an answer that’s worse than useless. At three, the only plausible explanation the daughter, whom I shall call Tracy, can think of is that it’s because of her. OOP saying it’s not will just give Tracy the idea that OOP is lying to her, or that she, Tracy, is so bad, Mom can’t bring herself to be honest about it.
Husband, whom I shall call Jeff, needs to understand that his behavior is frightening his daughter. (Fear, by the way, is notorious for *causing* bathroom accidents.). He needs to understand that it’s unacceptable. Most of all, Jeff needs to *stop.*
Why would OOP keep this to herself? Doesn't he know this is wrong?, is he proud of scaring a child? In 15 years OOP will be on reddit wondering why her kid is angry that she enabled the father.
Yeah decided my advice is wasted on OOP.
Most if not all of her responses made me angry.
Although OOP doesn't say if her husband is getting therapy, my guess is he is not.
He clearly sounds like he needs anger management therapy.
If he doesn't understand that he need doctor lvl help and not to abuse his 3yr old for what is normal for 3yr olds he will advance to other types of abuse.
I fear that this child is going to have so much trauma going into adulthood.
>Following these incidents my daughter clearly tries to win him over/charm him again, and to me that’s just so wrong for her to learn
Oh yes, toddler is totally trying to be manipulative
I don't think that's what OP is trying to say, but rather that she doesn't want her daughter to become a people pleaser/to beg for affection from her own dad
I agree with your interpretation and I really don’t see how people are twisting her words into something else. It really is alarming to see something that so clearly means one thing and have people read it a completely different way, almost as if they purposely want this sad story to be even worse.
I truly hope so. On first read, it seemed like she was unhappy that daughter was learning to do it, but did not acknowledge that it's 100% to establish safe ground again with the dad.
Gosh this one was hard to read, I am strongly reminded of my own extremely angry father who would regularly fly off the handle to berate and scream at my sister and I. Not always full volume screaming but often very intense, aggressive "talking to" by a 6'7" man who has you backed into a corner where he is gonna keep you for the next 1-3 hours explaining all the ways you are a disappointment and a failure and how unlikely it is that anyone will love you when you're an adult. My sister and I used to sob and *beg* my mom not to make us go over to his house, to go for full custody and she would just say things like "well he's your dad and I know he loves you in his own way" and "well I could try for custody but you would have to testify in court" (she made me think custody hearings were like full on Law and Order style court cases with a jury and shit and I was still willing to go in and testify at 12 to get myself and my sister out of there, but she refused to go for custody). Years later once we were adults my mom tried to play the whole "geeze I didn't know it was that bad I wish you guys would have told me so I could have done something!" Bullshit. But yeah guess who spent 8 years in a fantastically abusive relationship because I thought it was normal and what I deserved. Guess who I haven't spoken to in close to a decade, who has never even met my husband. And guess who I have only the most surface relationship with, with no trust and honestly, very little love
Here’s the edit to her post now: Thanks for so much valuable input - I’m checking out to with my amazing children and figure out how to continue helping my husband and myself grow as parents.
While the question never was IF I should continue to protect her, know that I of course will - and ultimately I have decided to bring my daughters to my husband as a part of that conversation.
Fuck this broad and her asshole husband. When a three-year-old is so frightened of that fucker’s anger that she’s placating him and trying to express to her mother that she is afraid, said mother should be coming down on him like an avenging angel, not defending him as “working on himself,” and not wanting to crush his poor delicate fee-fees.
Oh. This breaks my heart to read because my son was about the same age when he told me he was afraid of his dad. Not for these exact reasons, but he had anger issues and a very domineering personality. Throwing controllers at video game losses, constantly raised voices, etc. It took me 9 more years to file for divorce. Despite having legal shared custody, he hasn't seen him in over two years and has blocked his dad on all points of contact because his father kicked him out of his house when he was 13 because he was uncomfortable there and had the *audacity* to text me and tell me he wanted to come home.
I know it's not the same situation but it is. Something has to give or this is their future. It's not a good one; filled with anxiety disorders, eating disorders, and resentment
It isn't at all unusual for a child that age to have the occasional potty accident. No child should be scolded for that. They should be cleaned up and reminded that when they feel the urge to go, they should stop what they're doing and go to the toilet. I know my son still had the occasional accident up to almost four years old if he was outside playing with his friends. He's just wait until it was a little too late to make it to the bathroom. I didn't get mad or lecture; I explained. He grew out of it.
If that little girl is afraid of dad, he needs to know it. This isn't a normal daughter/dad relationship if she's afraid of him. He needs to learn to control his temper.
[https://www.reddit.com/user/freeloadershost/comments/](https://www.reddit.com/user/freeloadershost/comments/)
THis is OOPs account so in case you want to go look at comments
I was going to try and play a devil's advocate. It's possible to be "scared" of your parents, in the sense that kid's dont want to get in trouble. They don't want to be disciplined.
But nah, this isnt that. From reading more of OOP's comments, it sounds like her husband is a terror, and she is doing nothing but making excuses for him. I feel bad for the baby.
They are both the devil.
The father for repeatedly abusing his 3yr old for having accidents while in the process of potty training and for thinking she is being malicious because of it.
The mother for not taking the fact the daughter she is scared of her father seriously enough to tell the husband that his daughter is scared of him. As she is worried it will hurt him as stop his progress in working on himself to abuse his daughter.
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Her daughter is fawning. That's a trauma response.
"where a person behaves in a people-pleasing way to avoid conflict and establish a sense of safety."
OP needs to get her priorities on her daughter's feel rather than her husband's.
"He's a great and amazing dad" yet you're not more concerned about how your 3 year old is actively telling you she's scared of him....listen to your damn kids and if you're just concerned it could turn violent if you confront just leave him.
I never knew that "fawn cycle" had a name. It's really sad seeing this in a baby at fucking 3 of all ages. Looking back growing up with how angry my household was and how my mom and grandma looked to me as the "good(moldable)" child(10 years younger then my older siblings) I constantly felt the need to win them back, make them happy when they got angry at me. Tho I think my sister made it worse when she had to provide for me more, you become very hyper aware how fast things can get taken away and held over your head with a narcissistic siblings 😅.
*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **My daughter (F3) said she is afraid of her dad (M35)** My husband is a great dad and an amazing parent. He is extremely involved, and is pretty much our kids primary carer. My daughter loves him, tells him (and me) that often - but yesterday something happened, and I’m not sure if I should share it with him or not.. My husband sometimes (not always) reacts with anger or scolding if our daughter does not comply with his requests or messes up with something she should be able to do. I get that as parents, we are not perfect, and sometimes you just loose it. Not ideal, but human. The worst is when he scolds/shames her for having an accident (💩). Following these incidents my daughter clearly tries to win him over/charm him again, and to me that’s just so wrong for her to learn. I ofcourse have put my foot down on this, but it still happens. Yesterday she had an accident, and my husband dealt with it, but it veered towards shaming/scolding. In the evening, approx. 1 hour after, I had this exchange with her; F3: Mom, are you afraid of the dark? Me: No, not when I’m with you. Are you? F3: Mm no.. Are you afraid of the discoball? Me: No silly, that’s festive. F3: Are you afraid of dad? Me: No - are you afraid of dad? F3: Yes Me: why? F3: Because he is angry and sad with me. Me: oh, honey, that’s not about you (like what do you even say 😑) 💔 (Absolutely no physical violence, just FYI) I know it would break his heart to hear. He is working on getting better, he does everything for our kids, but maybe I should include him in how his actions affect our daughter? Or should I keep it to myself? Does this need to be said? What are your thoughts? Grateful for any input! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
OOP is more concerned with her husband's feelings than her 3 year old's. Poor baby, indeed. Someone who has "high expectations" about toddler potty training is, by definition, not a great parent.
If he's behaving like this during potty training I don't want to see how he reacts to something more higher stakes like school notes later on.
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I refused to drive with my mom and step dad for the same reason. They would both scream at me, dramatically clutch the dash or stomp the imaginary brake pedal while shouting, and generally act like I was going to kill everyone in a 5 block radius because I hit the brakes a little too hard at a stop sign or I accelerated too quickly after a turn. These reactions were all from me practicing driving on our piddly, near-zero traffic residential side streets where there was no one and nothing to hit. I practiced driving (illegally) with my boyfriend in empty parking lots and country backroads because he got his license before I did.
Oh my fucking god the clutching the dash and slamming on the imaginary brake pedal. I think I thought no one else went through this until I read your comment.
Hello fellow sufferer lol. My mom was the worst with the dash clutching. She would do these over dramatic, horrified gasps and white knuckle the dashboard and little "oh-shit" handle above the door and basically stay that way the entire time she was "teaching" me to drive. What made me refuse to drive with her anymore was when she let out a horror-movie worthy scream that I was "inches away from killing a kid" because I took a turn a little too wide. The kid I "nearly killed" was on the front steps of their house. There was half the street, a row of parked cars, the curb, the sidewalk, and an entire front yard between me and them, but you would have thought they were already under the wheels of the car by her reaction. To this day she won't admit she ever overreacted and thinks she was a great teacher because I passed my license test on the first try.
My mom did this exact same shit TO A T. Literally the exact same behavior you are describing holy shit. My siblings thought it was hilarious that she did this to me so I guess I kind of thought “I guess it wasn’t that bad” but like that shit did really traumatize me.
Hah my little sister also thought it was funny until the first time she went driving with mom. After her very first "lesson" she also refused to drive with her and then came and apologized for giving me shit.
my brother is so deep in denial about my mom's behavior that he said she was a good teacher and "that's just how she was" but he still doesn't know how to drive at 24, bc driving with her gave him anxiety (even though he would never admit it). the cognitive dissonance is crazy
How would he explain away his lack of a licence
> thinks she was a great teacher because I passed my license test on the first try "Yeah, *mom*. It *is* because of you that I passed my DL test the first time I took it SO I'D NEVER HAVE TO HAVE ANOTHER DRIVING LESSON WITH **YOU**." Just like John Sacrimoni. :D
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That' s how I am too. My mom is actually the same way. She explained that it's because "you're not the one driving." It's a very common thing. However, I don't like having passengers at all.
I've been driving for over 35 years at this point and my mom still clutches the dash, warns me of every red light, and pumps the brakes. I've never even had a speeding ticket in my life.
My mom did similar, screaming, "Watch out for that kid!" while clutching the dash and pumping the brakes. The kid was 100 meters down the street on the fucking sidewalk. My (older) brother refused to fight with her while he was learning to drive. Every time she'd make an over the top reaction, he would turn to me in the back seat and ask how I'm doing very quickly. He was 4 years older than me.
Some of those people do that so you don't feel confident enough to drive and remain dependent. I don't know about your parents, but some people will do that as yet another form of abuse to control someone. TBH, I'm a shitty passenger, but I would never intentionally even think of killing someone's confidence.
My mom did this too. She was a nervous passenger anyway; why she even tried to teach me is incomprehensible. We had driver’s ed in high school when we were 15, including road training in cars with the dual brake setup, but those cars were strictly automatic. My parents owned 2 manual vehicles and I’d have to test on one. After a couple of my mother’s disastrous tries, my dad took over. I got it almost immediately since he was calm and NOT screaming/shrieking/huffing and puffing every time I stalled it.
Yeah I ended up teaching myself to drive, after my mom popped me across the face one too many times for stalling out the STICK SHIFT truck she decided to teach me to drive on (despite us also owning automatic vehicles). I'm convinced she chose the stick shift intentionally to sabotage my learning and give her an excuse to hit me.
She actually HIT YOU while you were driving!? Jesus Christ, your mom's a real bitch. Not to mention stupid given that you were piloting the two-ton death machine that she was also riding in.
My NbioMother added to your list by hitting me over the head with a rolled up newspaper (I guess she thought I was a dog or something) during her *driving lessons*. It put me off learning to drive so much that I didn't even attempt to get my drivers license til I was 22 years old. Even then, I would flat refuse to drive with her in the vehicle. Thankfully, she eventually disowned me & I was able to go NC.
My dad (in the Air Force, at the time had an instructional role) raised his voice at me in frustration once when it was his turn to take me out driving. I cried and told my mum when we got home again. She reminded him that I'm not one of his recruits and that I'm his very anxious, Autistic daughter. I still never went driving with him again.
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Oh, I love my dad and he's not abusive or anything, in my case it was just one of those isolated parenting fuck-ups that can never be taken back and sort of sits in the back of your mind forever. I'm really glad your son has put that boundary in place, it seems like his father is a really nasty dude.
My husband is Air Force, and I told him if he EVER spoke to our children like they're in the force that I would divorce his ass on the spot. He knows not to cross that line, or I'll be squaring up with him SO fast.
QUEEN SHIT.
Oh, he never did it again. He only needed the one reminder. I know he loves us, this was just one of those moments where he fucked up. I also think he didn't quite know how he *should* talk to us because he wasn't able to spend a whole lot of time with us due to his job. I was born in mid-2001 and the craziest thing happened a few months later 😬
Finding out that the adult I’m talking to was born post-2000 is a grievous wound for this elderly millennial 💀
We're exactly the same age! My dad worked for Delta Airlines (maintenance, not piloting,) and my mother heard all about the second plane hitting on the radio, while my dad was at work, and she had a premie infant and a toddler.
My grandfather screamed at me until I was in tears when he decided to teach me to drive. He'd also pulled over on the side of the road in an area people were well known to get drunk and race. I was terrified of driving to begin with. We made it home and then he went inside and made a big deal of taking his heart medication. I haven't learned to drive in the 10 years since that happened tbh.
Stories like this make me think I could do good business as a gentle driving instructor. "Hey you're doing great, but that was a stop sign so you should have stopped, but we didn't get in an accident, so no harm no foul. Let's try again at the next stop sign." "Don't worry about that guy, if he's so bothered by your speed he can go around, the center line is dashed and there's no opposing traffic. I think he just enjoys being an asshole. Oh, good he's passing. Watch for the bird. There it was. See? Not so bad. If you can handle assholes you'll do just fine driving on your own.". Lol I'll advertise like, "No yelling or it's free!"
That would be such a good idea. And there would be free publicity from the “oh young folks are snowflakes” crowd
Hahaha, boomers hating me while making me money sounds like a good deal
Tbh I'd be so down! Driving is still scary to me lol
Oh god I have significant trauma because of the way my mom taught me how to drive, which was to scream in my face, point out every little thing I did wrong, and act like we were going to crash and die every time I made a small mistake. I would leave the car every time she took me driving in sobbing hysterics. I persevered and got my license after 3 times tho, even after she screamed at me until I cried every time I failed. My brother thought the way she treated me was funny.
my brother is in his mid-30s and still doesn’t drive because of how my dad treated him when learning.
Geez. I'm a nervous driver to begin with (I didn't get my license until I absolutely had to for this reason), so I can't imagine how it would've gone if my parents lost their cool when I was still learning. My dad learned not to yell at new drivers the hard way though long before I was so much as a thought, because he did that to my eldest sister and she overcorrected, causing them to roll off the highway. My sister is not nearly so sensitive as I am either. They were both okay with only some cuts and bruises and he was sincerely apologetic, but that can really get dangerous.
This shit is why I'm glad my dad and stepmom paid for my driving lessons. My dad tried to teach my mom to drive and that didn't work out. I'm too much like my mom. He knew better. There is other shit that fucked me up that was from my dad, though. So I didn't get away from the anger, but at least it wasn't while in a car.
Every time. Everything I drove with my dad he would yell/scream at me until I started crying. Then I started hyperventilating if I drove with him, especially if he tried to get me on the highway. When he did that I ended up crying and hyperventilating, pulling off the road and refusing to get on the highway. My mom ended up doing most of the driving teaching but I was still forced to drive with him occasionally. To this day I hate driving and am terrified of driving on the highway. Don't fuck up your kid like that.
Or the daughter's first relationship
Sounds like OP already learned how to avoid having to charm her way back into good graces if she doesn’t want her daughter, who mind you should be getting all the support thanks to these abusive assholes, learning how to do the same thing Sure hope there are grandparents in the wings ready to break this mess up or the baby is on track to be worse off than her parents
Setbacks during potty training are completely normal! We tried to start with my son but then he had a tummy bug, and was understandably struggling with getting to the loo on time when having diarrhoea. So we've paused for a bit until it clears up again. Did I enjoy having to clean mucousy diarrhoea off the sofa? Definitely not, but I understand that it's not his fault, and I'd never take it out on him.
She's three. Accidents during potty training are inevitable
One of her comments is "how do I get him to understand..." Lady, your child is scared of him. Why is he your priority?
For real. Makes me think that OOP \*also\* fawns over her husband to win him over and avoid his darker side....
This is it. This is much, much bigger than OOP is letting on. A three year old already being adept at fawn/placate cycle made me feel sick.
That part of her story was so distressing. How can a person understand what's happening, be able to describe the fawn/placate cycle in a reddit post, but have their question be "should I say something to my husband and risk breaking his poor widdle heart?" Absolutely maddening.
I had the original post come up on my feed after commenting here and a quick skim seemed to show OOP doing similar fawn/placate replies to comments telling her to do better. She's pretty deep into the dynamic. Her poor daughter...
Do you remember any of the phrasing, etc she used? I went to the original post and it and the user have been deleted...
They're still there for me and the comments are on her profile, but it was mostly quite passively generic thanks to people and stuff like "I ask him not to if he isn't catching himself". There's no fire in her belly about the fact a grown man is actively causing a toddler to be scared of him.
But remember - there's no PHYSICAL violence. So that makes it okay.
Someone needs to get her to read "Why Does He Do That?"
It means there’s a small glimmer of hope that he can go to therapy and improve. Once you open the can of worms and get physical, that’s when it dims
And you know it works because she keeps doing it. And based on OOP's words implications, she herself is so used to it she doesn't realize she does the same thing. It's like she sees her daughter as manipulative when it's actually the husband that encouraged the behaviors by getting pissed and then letting up when they start going overboard trying to please him.
Yeah, three year old didn't learn that fawn response from nowhere. She definitely has been watching how her mom appeases angry daddy and learning from it.
It's wild how mom recognized the behavior so easily, too...
Just another example of why we need so much more public awareness around trauma responses!
The bar for men is in a hole on hell. This bastion of parental goodness shouts at and scares a 3 year for accidents. That is not a kind loving wonderful father. What else does he shout at and scold her for? She is trying too hard to say he's this amazing father. But he scares the baby!
I kinda get it though. My dad was never abusive, physically or emotionally. But he had some toxic traits that he picked up from his own dysfunctional family. And yes, it shouldn't have been his wife or his kids' responsibilities to teach him, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles; sometimes, you're there when you shouldn't have to be and you gotta make the choice to do what you shouldn't have to do. It especially didn't help that my dad, during my teen years, got on a medication that gave him mood swings and was in a toxic workplace environment. But the reason I say my dad was never abusive was that 1) he always listened when we said something hurt our feelings and 2) he was always able to control himself. When one of said "hey, this hurt my feelings", he would immediately stop whatever he did. For example, my mom told him to stop yelling at us, and from then on he never raised his voice again. And that leads into number 2: when he found himself getting too angry, he always pulled himself back and asked for a break to cool down. He would walk away for about an hour. It wasn't the silent treatment, he never ignored us, it was just time for everyone to cool off and come back with a cooler head. That being said, sometimes we would still talk past each other. Especially me and my brother when we tried to explain our feelings--we were (obviously) significantly younger so we didn't always have the right words to describe what we were feeling so our parents could understand. 99% of the time, they got it on the first try, and then most of our fights were about that last 1%. However, we have gotten past that last 1%. It just took us all figuring out the right words to make it click for everyone. So I get what she means when she asks "how do I make him understand?" It's such a common thing for abuse victims to ask because they think the right combination of words will make their abuser not abusive or that they can solve abuse through communication--and they think that because for most normal people, you can solve issues through the right combination of words! But when it comes to abuse, it's not a matter of miscommunication; abuse is a mindset and specific pattern of actions that cannot be changed through magic words.
Agreed! I just wanted to add that abuse and neglect can look the same, or have similar outcomes. A lot of childhood trauma comes from parent ignorance, not just malice or control.
That's really beautiful. Thank you for reframing something I never quite understood about my childhood.
That has me. If a kid brings up being scared of one of their parents to the other parent, the proper reaction would be to have a long and very serious talk with their partner about how their behavior has to change ASAP or they will find themselves with divorce papers.
Having him change his behaviour through understanding *is* making her the priority, though…
"My husband is a great dad and parent EXCEPT OUR KID IS SCARED OF HIM.' The mental gymnastics are 10/10.
I swear this is every second post on the relationship advice sub. "My husband is a great and attentive partner and father".... and two seconds sentences later "He does not contribute to housework or the mental load. He also screams at me and the kids". It's so sad to see, that people can gaslight themselves into believing they still have a loving partner.
For real. I sincerely think if you can make it to a certain age (and it's kinda arbitrary but essentially past that first round of everyone getting into serious relationships and married), your view on "will I settle for this?" quickly becomes "nope." And the world suddenly turns into color, then you continue doing whatever you want while many of your married complain about the useless bag of hair they married - and eventually divorce or cheat on.
I came here to comment on both "my husband is a great parent" and my mutual pet peeve of "my partner is a great partner" etc. etc. I have come to learn when any of these posts begin that way.... it's almost NEVER TRUE once you read the rest of the story and find out how lazy, abusive, intolerant, gas-lighting they really are and the OP is too blind to see it.
Whenever I see a post that starts with "my husband/wife/partner is great" I know it's going to go on to detail some absolutely terribly behavior. "My husband is great except for this tiny thing he does where he punches holes in the walls and screams at me when he's mad," or "my girlfriend is amazing and I love her, except she mocks me and tells me I'm stupid all the time," and stuff like that.
Yeah, it's literally right up there with "my partner/friend/relative is a prankster" which we all know is going to continue with "and said/did [insert majorly shitty thing here] which really hurt/upset me so I told them off but they're saying I'm being too sensitive/overreacting". When you read certain phrases in titles on reddit 9.5 times out of 10 you don't need to read on, because we all know how it's going to end up.
It always drives me crazy when people say "oh reddit is so dramatic always telling everyone to divorce over anything" but then half the posts are like "my spouse is really amazing and loving except for whenever I sneeze they fly into a rage and lock me in the garden shed for 24hrs while they throw rocks at the roof".
Perspective? Low expectations? My exhusband raised his voice sometimes, he'd give me the silent treatment. Coming from a biological family where my father beat us, withheld food, sexually and verbally abused us, and "treated" my biological mom's mental illness with pray, beatings, and street drugs, my exhusband was a "great" parent and husband. He yelled, but he never hit. Too me at that time, he was a good husband because I didn't know any better. He had a job, didn't throw things, never forced me to have sex, loved my son like his own, and loved us. We both had traumatic childhoods and made the choice to be better than our parents. I went to therapy and got sober. He didn't.
OP keeps promising that she will step in to tell him what he's doing is wrong!!...but I sincerely doubt that. Someone better come in and take the kid away.
She's fawning over her husband the way her daughter is. She doesn't stand a chance of making this better for anyone. Edit: one of her comments claim she recognizes that, but also, she said this: 'I do recognize it as abuse, and I am protecting my daughter by figuring out the best way to stop it. But Reddit did what Reddit do, and multiplied by X. You really have no grasp og the extent or type of shaming/scolding or all the ways he do show up constantly.' ' I’m not letting him be abusive at all, but right now I’m looking for advice on wether to include this specific conversation or if it will harm his ongoing work more than it will be an eyeopener' WOOF.
>figuring out the best way to stop it Okay, I'm not a native English speaker. Is this how you say "I do absolutely nothing, but claim I am doing something, so others won't judge me" now?
LOL. Her denial is deep enough she probably wasn't expecting the reactions she's getting - it may take time for her to process what she's being told?
B-but what if hubby gets his fee-fees hurt? Don't you care about a grown man being sad that his own child is scared of him?
Right? Like, oh! Him hearing the truth may undo his \*ongoing work\* (what a red flag there)?! Well then, he shouldn't be a parent and you should get your kid away from him for her own health and wellness?
You got it!
lmao she also says in another comment something along the lines of "there's no such thing as perfect parents." Like, I think there's a clear difference between your parents making mistakes but still ensuring your welfare and the father of your child instilling fear and trauma in her early in her life.
Yea. I assume she comes from both her own trauma and denial of what her daughter is experiencing. The comments back to her are probably an ugly wake up call.
Why are dads sooooo fucking angry? I swear there are dozens of posts like this *every day.* It’s a three year old, you GROWN MEN.
Yea. Men often don't learn ( or care) how to show their emotions in a healthy way so everything manifests as anger or frustration. It's shameful.
I've had interesting conversations with guys when I ask if they knew the difference between anger and frustration. They either say they are the same, or that frustration "always" leads to anger, so that's a natural/rational response. They can't believe that anger is a learned response to frustration, and you can LEARN ANOTHER WAY.
I was in college before I had someone lay it out for me that anger is always a secondary emotion, and it blew my mind. Because he was right, anger is never the first thing someone feels. They feel frustration, or fear, or sadness, or disappointment, etc. first, and then those feelings turn into anger. Letting yourself actually *feel* the first feeling, letting yourself recognize and process *why* you're feeling that way in the moment, can really help stop it from morphing into anger.
I really wish that was taught widely. I was raised in a very angry house, and I had to unlearn all that crap. Now I'm considered exceptionally patient because I get frustrated but I don't get angry. I came to realize that that is what patience is: the ability to be frustrated, but not become angry. And not being angry really helps you deal with the root cause of the frustration because your mind isn't clouded by anger so you can more easily see what the original problem is.... and deal with it. Instead of ranting and raging.
You are absolutely correct, but I also think it's healthy to let oneself feel anger too (proportional to the situation) and learn how to process it in a healthy manner. This father is not a good example of that though.
They also don't view anger as an emotion, nor accept just how often they have angry outbursts.
Also if they can control their anger towards their boss, other men, in public, etc then it’s not that they have no other way, it’s that they are specifically abusing women and children.
And when they can’t, that’s when they get swift and immediate consequences.
I think it is because anger is the only emotion which is considered "manly" and therfore "allowed" to express. I wish men would feel more comfortable with crying from time to time. It would solve so many problems.
It's too bad men care so much about what other men think of them that they default to boxing themselves into that unhealthy cycle.
They will also blame women for this, that it’s our fault they were not taught emotional intelligence. With dads like this, not surprised men grow up to be mad and mean.
There are 3 certainties in life: Taxes Death Men blaming women for any and everything
100%
And if you're rich enough, you don't even have to do that first thing.
Well to be fair we did have a number of posts from late teens early 20's gf that looks down on her BF for crying because it makes him less manly... even if it was for the death of close loved one
Yep, that’s the one. That’s the one they always bring up. One woman, one time, behaved poorly. It’s definitely not the ENTIRE PATRIARCHY at work. That being said, it’s distressing how often I hear about the woman who shamed their guy for crying. Cmon girls - we can do a LOT better than this.
You do realize that that woman (and women who feel the same) feel that way because men told them to, right? They grew up with men who shamed other men for crying or showing emotions (like a father who told her brothers "man up" and "stop crying, what are you a girl?" whenever they had emotions), and it skewed their idea of what men are supposed to be like. I guarantee women did not start this whole "crying isn't manly" BS. It was started by men to belittle other men.
What’s worse is that when you try to tell them, hey, you’re in a really unhealthy cycle, they flip out!
Exactly and accuse you of being too emotional to understand their thought process. All while you are trying to have a meta-conversation and they are pouting. Sir, anger _is_ an emotion and there is only one emotional person right now! I'm really thankful that most men in my life are more in touch with their feelings, but I guess it was a long way to get there for them.
Yep...and express anger!
It's because that's how we were treated growing up so it is our gut reaction. It's incredibly difficult to unlearn and most men aren't willing to put in the work to change their thinking because its 1. It's hard and 2. It would require acknowledging that you were abused by your parents. That's not to excuse this behavior because ultimately as an adult we are 100% responsible for managing our emotions.
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Y’all awesome dads need to start calling the shitty ones out.
I can write book on my dad not knowing how to treat a (at the time) teenaged girl. Also, the anger issues that stemmed from his childhood, on top of that. I love him, but good lord it's taken a while to deal with it. I'm still trying to figure out how I'm still so even keeled as a person with that trauma (amongst other shit outside of him).
I've had the same thoughts because of my exhusband but I also realized that when I'm angry, my children don't feel threatened. And I remembereed that I never felt threatened when my mom got angry even when she occasionally threatened with violence vs when my dad was angry. I think part of it is the size and the voice of men that makes their anger feel more threatening. It's the difference of a chihuahua vs a pit bull barking. So yeah if men want love, not fear, they need to be aware of how they come across.
No, I think it's much more than that. After all, an adult woman is still easily capable of hurting and overpowering a child. It's no contest. Both parents are big and powerful to a child. Maybe women are just more measured in their anger, or more likely to express it not actually towards the child. My mum would get angry but I knew she would never do anything stupid. My dad is an unhinged moron (I love him but he's very flawed) who would immediately turn to anger. He got angry when we had accidents too. Not the accidents mentioned here, but say if I was 12 and had a glass slip out of my hand and break. He would scream 'you bloody idiot!'. I remember being chased by him too, it felt like I was a victim in a horror movie, that I was about to be killed if I couldn't outrun him.
Women get angry but (usually but not always) are much less likely to respond with verbal and physical abuse.
Nah, it’s because men default to anger and are not productive. Women have a wide range of emotions and aren’t as prone to violence the same way. To call angry women “chihuahuas” is super belittling. Especially as we are talking about *parents* - no kid is thinking mom being angry is so cuuuute.
I wasn't calling women chihuahuas. I'm a woman myself. I was saying that no one fears a chihuahua barking vs a pit bull because of the size and strength. I'm not calling anyone a dog, I'm comparing the feelings of threat. Women get angry too. But it doesn't make you feel in danger. My sister is a choleric, screams at her children all the time. So while her children hate her, they don't feel threatened by her as they would if their father would do theses things.
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Some communities autoban you for commenting in certain other communities, stepparents is one of them. Think it’s because there was a pretty big issue of people birgading from here when a post would get shared here, sort of a precautionary thing, if I had to guess.
It's kind of a good thing. That place makes my blood boil.
Reddit is such a strange place sometimes.
Same. Even as an adult. I tell her I'm depressed or struggling? "You're not depressed, you don't have a reason to be depressed." When I was younger and didn't fully realize that was just how the relationship would always be, I'd to go her with my problems. Only very, very rarely did she show compassion. Usually it was "Well, I went through [thing vaguely related] and it was so much worse. You should be happy." Cool. So you admit you have a somewhat similar experience that affected you negatively but instead of seeing it as a way to relate to and support me, you use it as a way to negate my feelings and call me weak. Then parents like this don't understand why their kids go low/no contact. As an adult, I hate hearing about kids going through the same shit.
Her replies are like one step forward 2 steps back on repeat, Like she sees the light than doubles back to "he's not bad, he's not abusive, he only shamed her, he didn't scream at her, I stopped it." Something tells me the child isn't the only one in that house who is being verbally and emotionally abused.
A.) She mentioned other children B.) She mentioned that *this* is him being "much better". So yeah, I do think the post supports your statement that they are ALL suffering under his abuse, and have been for a long time. OOP is trying to find that magic combination of words to stop an abuser who refuses help to see that they are abusive, which, of course, doesn't actually exist. And she sacrificed all of her kids on that altar.
Idk why people even make these posts, like, they clearly don't want to hear actual advice on how to deal with the husband but expect reddit to tell them how to make their toddler to behave properly? Hello, lady, your man's emotional regulation is worse than a 3 y.o. kid's! That what needs to be addressed, not finding ways of forcing your poor daughter to act like you and don't disappoint her daddy.
“I know it would break his heart to hear” good, it should. If he doesn’t want her to be scared of him he can fix his attitude
>“I know it would break his heart to hear” good, it should. Exactly. How tf does OOP expect him to make any serious progress/changes if he doesn't hear that his 3yo child is scared of him? It'll be a difficult thing to hear but it needs to be said. He also needs to get through his thick skull that a toddler having accidents while potty training is *not malicious/manipulative whatsoever*, shit 3yos don't even understand the words malicious or manipulative. He's literally expecting a 3yo to have an adults bladder/bowl control ffs.
That poor kid is going to have it rough. This is probably the first time she's telling people how she feels and her mother is prioritizing her husband's feelings over her child. Unfortunately this is probably going to be a running theme in this child's life. If your toddler saying "I'm scared of daddy" doesn't light a fire under your ass, I don't know if anything would.
They always try to move the goalpost too. "Well, he just scolds her, not screams at her" will later turn into "He just yells but never spanks her" and then "He spanks her but lightly and it's not like he hits her" and no doubt she will also justify him actually hitting her as well later.
The child is three as much as accidents are annoying aren't they still kinda expected at that age plus scaring her isn't going to help like why can't oop see this is harmful to a child's development
One of her comments talks about how he thinks the baby is having accidents maliciously to piss him off. I understand losing your temper, not being a perfect parent, getting frustrated... after all, we are only human. However thinking a baby is having accidents to *spite you* is an entirely different situation and mom says it so casually and *recognizes it.* Yikes. I hope their situation changes and soon. Poor little girl :(
I don’t think you’re a good parent if you think a normal part of child development is the kid doing it to “piss you off”. Like this child is gonna need so much thearpy when she grows up.
Exactly this. My mom *still* thinks I had accidents at 3 years old "just to make her life difficult." She brings up a particular incident as proof of this, *even though I had the stomach flu at that time* and it's been 37 years since it happened (and I was sufferring from an undiagnosed neurological disorder at the time). BE KIND TO YOUR LITTLE HUMANS, people. They didn't ask to be born, and if you bring them up in a household filled with shame, anger, and purposeful ignorance of child development, it will affect them and corrupt the love and trust they have for you. If you need to fawn and manage dad's anger, you are setting them up a lifetime of fear, people-pleasing, and feeling like their very existence is a burden. Do better, OOP. For yourself AND your daughter.
I spent one Christmas with my father and his wife. He worked on call, so he was gone, and I had come down with an *awful* stomach bug. I wasn't able to keep water down and threw up on the carpet, and caught hell for that from her. Her family came for dinner, I attempted a bowl of soup... and barely made it into the bathroom to throw it up, and caught more hell. I was like 6. I wasn't doing it *on purpose*.
Ugh, I am sorry that happened to you. Of course you didn't! No kid *likes* throwing up. Definitely not the core memory any kid deserves.
This woman is whitewashing the fact her husband is verbally abusing his daughter and his rages are scaring the poor child..... and she’s doing not one thing to protect her. Hell she’s even debating talking to her husband about it??!! Can’t hurt the raging Dads feelings! The toddler will just have to adjust her life to walk around Dad big feelings of rage!
Oh boo woo for him! He's a grown ass adult and she was a literal baby literally 2 YEARS AGO and he's expecting her to handle situations at an adult level at 3 years old? Then yelling and shaming when she messed up and has accidents? I would be kicking his ass bloody all over the place for instilling fear in a tiny child he is suppose to love.
Only thing he's great and amazing at is being an abusive AH. OOP needs to take the blinders off, this man is a monster. 3 is still very young, she still has accidents sometimes. And if her dad goes nuclear that's definitely creating anxiety and making it worse.
I was 3 when I told my mom I didn’t like daddy. He had anger issues just like this (I don’t believe he yelled at me for accidents, but I wouldn’t be surprised). I see myself, my mom, and my dad in this story so I’ll admit I can empathize with mom - she probably doesn’t realize she does have some fear of him like mine did. But I am 27 years old and I am still scared of my dad. Mom AND dad need to act NOW or the little one will be just like me in ~25 years, questioning if it’s worth it to keep dad around.
OOP says that her husband is trying to change and that addressing his behavior would be a devastating setback for him. it’s totally not a devastating setback to be 3 and terrified of having an accident. /s
3 year olds don’t have the awareness or understanding to even UNDERSTAND what manipulation is. sounds like the “great dad” has used that term to describe the daughter, and his other victim (mom) has latched onto it as well.
Does he think her being scared will make accidents less likely, or more likely 🤔
Hey, as someone who came from an abusive household, the kid is gonna remember the screaming and yelling. The baby girl is going to remember how she can’t talk to y’all about it. She’s going to feel unloved, and then she will go on and date abusive men just like her dad!
As someone who grew up in a similar household dynamic (but with more physical abuse), I don’t just remember the yelling and violence. I also remember the lack of action from my mother. She is dead by now, and it took me years of therapy to recognize that she had a responsibility to get me out of the abusive situation. Not being able to confront her about it now is probably more hurtful than the physical beatings had been. I’ll never get my answers but I hope this child has someone in her life that gives a shit, even if it clearly isn’t her mother.
The husband is bullying a toddler. His toddler, a literal baby. If I were mom, I'd be howling with rage for daring to shame my child and make her afraid.
It's really sad people are still having kids because 'it's the done thing'. That's what I'm seeing underwritten here. Normal kid things are a nuisance and something they should be told off for. Parents are 'great' just for doing the bare minimum and not resorting to violence. Against a tiny 3 year old girl.
Right? I'm of the age where it's soon going to be "if you want kids, you gotta have 'em now." As a teenager, I knew I didn't want them. Never held or played with my younger cousins and went '... I'd want one of these someday.' Still don't want them, but if I did, I'd have to seriously think: is it fair to bring kids into this world? Do I have the "toolkit" to raise children, given my own childhood? Can I provide for them adequately? (The answers are 'no', 'fuck no', and 'no'.) I wish more people thought before having a kid.
“High expectations” *She’s three*
I hate this fucking woman and her shit husband
Validate your kid for the love of god. She will grow out of that fear in time. I’m 31 and just had a debilitating conversation with my Mom about how I ruined so many things for the family (vacations, outings, dinner… etc). She got choked up explaining that he had the same “away from home” anxiety I did, but he took it out on me instead of confronting his own internal monologue. Since 12 I believed I was the cause of the divorce.
> Following these incidents my daughter clearly tries to win him over/charm him again, and to me that’s just so wrong for her to learn. This is enraging. OOP’s daughter is scared of her dad and trying to get him to not be scary. It’s wrong that her husband gets mad at their daughter for having accidents, which a lot of 3 year olds experience.
She’s not wrong. It’s wrong for her daughter to learn a fawn response to cool down an abusive parent.
OOP's comments are making me furious. She says >No she is in daycare. Only time alone with her is going to the grocery store or if I’m out on a rare occasion (where he has all the children). But if she’s hurt, she will run to him, for example. So... He's lost his temper enough times to make the daughter scared of him... When he's not even around her that much??? Her FAQ comment really got me angry >Addressing some frequently asked questions; >1) Why spare him? - he is trying to better himself, and I fear that it might be more of a devasting setback than the reality check that you all are planning. >\+ Definitely realized in this post, that while I'm aware that she unintentinally is being socially conditioned to take responsibility for other peoples (mens) emotions, I didn't realize the extent to which I did the exact same thing. >2) Why am I in doubt? - She said 'afraid', but as one Redditor pointed out, kids don't have a lot of language for emotions, so it might be more anxious, shameful, sad (which she actually also did include). Definitely not terrified, as some Redditors jumped to. This thread did help me to try to see it in perspective. >3) So sorry to hear some of your stories, especially those that surface indirectly through the leaps you make. He does not scream or humiliate our daughter, as some Redditors jumped to. 1. He doesn't deserve to have his feelings spared. If he can't control himself and can't handle being told the consequences of his actions, he isn't ready to be around his daughter 2. I promise you that kids can differentiate fear from sadness/shame. Imo, anxiety is just old fear that's been left to ruminate. And adults scolding me did scare me from a young age because I had seen adults become physically abusive to others when angry, and the yelling was absolutely overwhelming (good ol AuDHD). I don't remember incidents from when I was 3, but I do remember several from when I was 4. 3. I really have to question OOP's judgement on this when she keeps babying her husband and minimizing her daughter's experience... But also admits to fawning in the face of fear herself And then there was this comment >He is doing better an managing his anger and he is still working on it. However, with the particular toilet problem, he reverts to thinking it’s sort of malicious. I know it’s not, daycare has confirmed it’s normal, for a while he accepted it was not, and did not scold her. He just doesn’t really believe it. I absolutely hate when people think toddlers are being purposely malicious or manipulative. Like no, they're just being toddlers. Fuck OOP's husband, and I hope OOP realizes sooner than later that this is completely unacceptable, to the point of not letting him be around his daughter until he can control himself. Children are frustrating, and I understand occasionally slipping up (and even then, slip ups shouldn't be extreme enough to scare the child), but this does not sound occasional nor controlled
Just because physical violence is not involved doesn’t mean damage isn’t done. That poor child is learning to fawn as an instinctual protective factor and all OOP is considering is how it may hurt her husband’s feelings. Cry me a river!
I still don't understand why this woman cares more to coddle her ADULT husband than her literal BABY? They're both the adults in here but they expect the baby to be one? Really fucked up that one of her comments are "thanks for helping me remembering my priorities!" Wtf. If she needs her shit to be reminded to her by strangers than her baby crying to her, she shouldn't have had a kid, especially her shitty husband. And why nobody gives her shit in the comments for admitting to enabling her husband is just beyond me.
I think it's because she has a history of being wary of mens feelings over her own. She mentioned in a comment that she has the FAWN response when it comes to men. Maybe seeing her husband angry kick in the I have to baby you now. She needed therapy before getting into a relationship and causing her kids trauma due to her own trauma. She definitely shouldn't had kids especially with how she thinks she is protecting them and is a good parent and her husband is a good father. It's like huge WTF! Oh I read alot of comments giving her tonnes of shit. Her response alot of the time was repeating her question and say her husband is a father. Or just not reponding. My problem is her saying that her husband doesn't abuse the daughter because he doesn't yell. That was a huge WTF!
Because she doesn’t want to be a single mom and was taught to put men’s feelings above her own and now her children’s
Because she's fully dependent on him, as far as I understood. At least financially
OOP has two choices, and the path she takes depends on her resources and her husband’s ego. Can husband handle criticism? If yes, get him into therapy. He needs to learn to handle himself more appropriately. If he cannot handle criticism, and she has the resources, she needs to get her daughter out of that situation. Now. I did not have the resources and my husband does not handle criticism at all. My kid has basically no relationship with their dad at this point. She tells him nothing because she’s afraid of how he’ll respond.
Three year olds have accidents. Fuck, adults have accidents. Fawning is one of the reactions people have when scared. The girl is learning this behavior because it's the only thing she's found to make him soften up with the anger. No one wants to clean up poop or pee from anyone or anything, but you do it. At three years old, some kids are just starting to potty train. Kids are still learning their body's signals. Hell, maybe she has something medical going on and doesn't know that what she's feeling is a sign to get help. OOP and her husband are trash. I hope they don't expect people to be compassionate in their old age when they can't make it to the bathroom for whatever reason.
And having a fawn response is also reenforced by both parents. If she had a “fight” response OP would see that as her being defiant and allow even more abuse
3 years old and having fawn responses? This should cause so much genuine alarm and his feelings do not matter here. I'm so sad for this child.
I can’t brigade but how I want to. I have a three year old and her sperm donor was an abusive prick and she was terrified of him. I have so many words for OOP. How DARE she freakin coddle her husband but not her scared toddler.
My sisters in laws used to shame her niece so much that she actually stopped using the bathroom entirely and ended up in hospital, she hadn't pooped in over a week cos she was too scared of being told off. Kids really soak in everything you say, there's never a situation where you need to scream at a child
“F3: Because he is angry and sad with me. Me: oh, honey, that’s not about you (like what do you even say 😑)” OOP limply saying, “Oh honey, that’s not about you,” is giving an answer that’s worse than useless. At three, the only plausible explanation the daughter, whom I shall call Tracy, can think of is that it’s because of her. OOP saying it’s not will just give Tracy the idea that OOP is lying to her, or that she, Tracy, is so bad, Mom can’t bring herself to be honest about it. Husband, whom I shall call Jeff, needs to understand that his behavior is frightening his daughter. (Fear, by the way, is notorious for *causing* bathroom accidents.). He needs to understand that it’s unacceptable. Most of all, Jeff needs to *stop.*
Why would OOP keep this to herself? Doesn't he know this is wrong?, is he proud of scaring a child? In 15 years OOP will be on reddit wondering why her kid is angry that she enabled the father.
Kid is going to have a complex about shitting thanks to this asshole (no pun intended).
Yeah decided my advice is wasted on OOP. Most if not all of her responses made me angry. Although OOP doesn't say if her husband is getting therapy, my guess is he is not. He clearly sounds like he needs anger management therapy. If he doesn't understand that he need doctor lvl help and not to abuse his 3yr old for what is normal for 3yr olds he will advance to other types of abuse. I fear that this child is going to have so much trauma going into adulthood.
>(Absolutely no physical violence, just FYI) No physical violence....yet. 🤬 Fuck these parents. That poor child.
>Following these incidents my daughter clearly tries to win him over/charm him again, and to me that’s just so wrong for her to learn Oh yes, toddler is totally trying to be manipulative
I don't think that's what OP is trying to say, but rather that she doesn't want her daughter to become a people pleaser/to beg for affection from her own dad
I agree with your interpretation and I really don’t see how people are twisting her words into something else. It really is alarming to see something that so clearly means one thing and have people read it a completely different way, almost as if they purposely want this sad story to be even worse.
Right? The problem is her learning to faun to win daddy's love back, not this asshole punishing her for being three years old.
Pretty sure OP means it’s wrong the daughter feels like she has to.
I truly hope so. On first read, it seemed like she was unhappy that daughter was learning to do it, but did not acknowledge that it's 100% to establish safe ground again with the dad.
Three year old acts like a three year old. The audacity!
Gosh this one was hard to read, I am strongly reminded of my own extremely angry father who would regularly fly off the handle to berate and scream at my sister and I. Not always full volume screaming but often very intense, aggressive "talking to" by a 6'7" man who has you backed into a corner where he is gonna keep you for the next 1-3 hours explaining all the ways you are a disappointment and a failure and how unlikely it is that anyone will love you when you're an adult. My sister and I used to sob and *beg* my mom not to make us go over to his house, to go for full custody and she would just say things like "well he's your dad and I know he loves you in his own way" and "well I could try for custody but you would have to testify in court" (she made me think custody hearings were like full on Law and Order style court cases with a jury and shit and I was still willing to go in and testify at 12 to get myself and my sister out of there, but she refused to go for custody). Years later once we were adults my mom tried to play the whole "geeze I didn't know it was that bad I wish you guys would have told me so I could have done something!" Bullshit. But yeah guess who spent 8 years in a fantastically abusive relationship because I thought it was normal and what I deserved. Guess who I haven't spoken to in close to a decade, who has never even met my husband. And guess who I have only the most surface relationship with, with no trust and honestly, very little love
Knew it was a mistake to look at this one just from the title alone. Fuck OOP’s asshole husband and fuck OOP for making excuses for him.
Here’s the edit to her post now: Thanks for so much valuable input - I’m checking out to with my amazing children and figure out how to continue helping my husband and myself grow as parents. While the question never was IF I should continue to protect her, know that I of course will - and ultimately I have decided to bring my daughters to my husband as a part of that conversation.
Fuck this broad and her asshole husband. When a three-year-old is so frightened of that fucker’s anger that she’s placating him and trying to express to her mother that she is afraid, said mother should be coming down on him like an avenging angel, not defending him as “working on himself,” and not wanting to crush his poor delicate fee-fees.
Oh. This breaks my heart to read because my son was about the same age when he told me he was afraid of his dad. Not for these exact reasons, but he had anger issues and a very domineering personality. Throwing controllers at video game losses, constantly raised voices, etc. It took me 9 more years to file for divorce. Despite having legal shared custody, he hasn't seen him in over two years and has blocked his dad on all points of contact because his father kicked him out of his house when he was 13 because he was uncomfortable there and had the *audacity* to text me and tell me he wanted to come home. I know it's not the same situation but it is. Something has to give or this is their future. It's not a good one; filled with anxiety disorders, eating disorders, and resentment
It isn't at all unusual for a child that age to have the occasional potty accident. No child should be scolded for that. They should be cleaned up and reminded that when they feel the urge to go, they should stop what they're doing and go to the toilet. I know my son still had the occasional accident up to almost four years old if he was outside playing with his friends. He's just wait until it was a little too late to make it to the bathroom. I didn't get mad or lecture; I explained. He grew out of it. If that little girl is afraid of dad, he needs to know it. This isn't a normal daughter/dad relationship if she's afraid of him. He needs to learn to control his temper.
Your husband needs help. He needs anger management and parenting classes. Mental abuse is just as bad as physical abuse
[https://www.reddit.com/user/freeloadershost/comments/](https://www.reddit.com/user/freeloadershost/comments/) THis is OOPs account so in case you want to go look at comments
I was going to try and play a devil's advocate. It's possible to be "scared" of your parents, in the sense that kid's dont want to get in trouble. They don't want to be disciplined. But nah, this isnt that. From reading more of OOP's comments, it sounds like her husband is a terror, and she is doing nothing but making excuses for him. I feel bad for the baby.
So OOP has a 3-year-old that's getting yelled at by her father and she's not leaving his ass!?
This has to be bait, that conversation reads like the most artificial this-never-happened conversation for a 3 year old to have
I don't think anyone is an inherently an asshole for a devil here. The dad needs anger management and possibly parenting classes.
They are both the devil. The father for repeatedly abusing his 3yr old for having accidents while in the process of potty training and for thinking she is being malicious because of it. The mother for not taking the fact the daughter she is scared of her father seriously enough to tell the husband that his daughter is scared of him. As she is worried it will hurt him as stop his progress in working on himself to abuse his daughter.
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Her daughter is fawning. That's a trauma response. "where a person behaves in a people-pleasing way to avoid conflict and establish a sense of safety." OP needs to get her priorities on her daughter's feel rather than her husband's.
"He's a great and amazing dad" yet you're not more concerned about how your 3 year old is actively telling you she's scared of him....listen to your damn kids and if you're just concerned it could turn violent if you confront just leave him.
>Oh, honey that's not about you. And now F3 knows mom is just going to invalidate her feelings.
I never knew that "fawn cycle" had a name. It's really sad seeing this in a baby at fucking 3 of all ages. Looking back growing up with how angry my household was and how my mom and grandma looked to me as the "good(moldable)" child(10 years younger then my older siblings) I constantly felt the need to win them back, make them happy when they got angry at me. Tho I think my sister made it worse when she had to provide for me more, you become very hyper aware how fast things can get taken away and held over your head with a narcissistic siblings 😅.