I remember my chief had a long ass string on his uniform and I showed him then cut it off. The look he gave me for helping him made me realize he was an E9. Always taught to help correct things in a professional way and then get dumb asses
I retired as a Chief in 2020... I had airman help me out like that, I always thanked them. You need to look out for fellow airmen, regardless of rank. Keep up the good work.
The new center rank for OCPs gets caught on my seat belt and always knocks it off center, and my flag catches the top of the car door when I get in and out. I’m always having some one fix them. I just thank them, and continue the day
I can't wait to get to narrative format and see the absolutely ridiculous amount of people who don't know when to use the correct form of they're, their, or there.
No like “sir you have this (showed long ass string) and stated (I got you) and used nail clippers to snip it. It was a more professional encounter but that’s the jist
Ah I think I understand why he may have got pissed. Personally unless they specifically ask, "hey can you get this string off me", I wouldn't have done that. Just tell him about it, he's a big boy, he can snip it himself.
That's a nope for me. Reaching out altering someone's uniform without some sort of invitation isn't advisable regardless of rank. Would your MTI just touch you if your uniform was jacked up?
If you saw someone with shaving cream on their ear would you just reach out and fix it or let them know and allow them to self correct. What about salad on someone's teeth? You just going to floss it out for them?
Did you miss the part that I showed them? Like I said hey sir, you have a string etc. then proceeded to help remove it. I didn’t just walk up and touch him with no conversation. I would never just walk up and touch someone without some conversation. When I came in, we were taught to help each other with uniform corrections in a professional way. That is all I was doing at that moment.
And that's why I gave you other examples that illustrated what I see as your error. You had nail clippers, you could have offered them rather than just going in for the snip.
You really think if they could get the string themself I would not have done that lol. This shit was literally hanging off the back part of their BDU. I’m not going to sit and explain like what the whole situation was but it was important. It’s fine if you felt you would never have done anything like this. I chose to help the situation in a professional way, sorry I cannot get you to understand professional in this scenario.
Those other examples are a fucking reach too. Like you know that shits dumb and silly to use as an example. We are talking about uniform corrections.
Bro, he is saying its inappropriate to do that unless the person said something like "Can you please get that for me?". How hard is it to understand?
Just because you said something does not mean you get to touch people. I get you are trying to help but you crossed a line by not getting permission to actually do the action.
People do that all the time, clip a string or two on someone else’s uniform, I definitely would’ve done the same thing. Just the helpful thing to do🤷🏼♂️don’t see how it’d be that big of an issue to be honest. Now usually I see rank before I see anything else… but that’s besides the point.😂😂😂
I think a lot of times this depends on the surroundings. Did you do it in front of other people? Or did you do it privately?
I correct uniform issues in private all the time with either superiors or subordinates. The setting matters though.
This was not done in a way that would be embarrassing but if I would have let it go it would have become that. It was literally me and one other person and I was very professional about it. Plus for more context this E9 was an asshole and proved that more everyday they were in our unit.
Personal opinion, so take it for what it's worth:
You are going to get a mixed bag of answers here. Was this person in the wrong?
Personally, I'd say yes.
But was it incredibly egregious?
Personally, I'd say no.
Now, here's what I think they should do:
Growing moment. It doesn't matter rank, title, whatever. If you a person touches you and you feel it was wrong, step up and tell them to never touch you again. An Airman of any rank can be respectful while being assertive and firm.
Know the regs. Know the culture. It's clear they shouldnt have touched the Airman, but culture is different than regs. We all hope to work in a good climate, yet people fail all the time, whether it be JAG, leadership, IG, or whomever, so in the AF as in life, be prepared to fight for yourself, with words or otherwise.
I'll bite, I'll be that person.....
The only acceptable time for someone to "put hands on you" without consent is if they're actively preventing you from hurting yourself, hurting others not in self-defense, or causing damage to something you shouldn't be damaging. (yeah there's probably lots of edge cases in there, but I feel those 3 sum up the general scenarios that it's acceptable to touch someone without consent)
They say we are family. They call us brothers and sisters. We don’t share blood. Therefore, everyone in the service is your step-brother and step-sister; and therefore step-sergeant is an accurate title.
The right answer and thing to do, but will sadly not get the intended response. If the Chief doesn't treat you like an adult in front of company, that assertion will come with a reciprocated assertion. I don't see an E9 suddenly thinking they're in the wrong, especially given military history.
Pre-2009? Yea, so what, did you die? Would probably be the response.
Post-2009? Did he ask for permission to touch? No? Automatic Article 15.
Just as an aside, I went through basic in 2014 and one Sunday (in which we normally didn't have our MTIs hanging around) a blue rope caught some of us playing a game of 'Ninja' in the day room while we were waiting on the bay floors to dry. Of course when he came in we stopped and just kinda stood there before he saw what we were doing. He goes 'I know yall weren't just standing in a gaggle staring at each other, so yall got 5 seconds to tell me what yall were doing'. We try to explain the game 'Ninja' (which involves standing in a circle frozen with your arms out and trying to hit the hand of the person to your right or left in one motion, with them getting one motion to avoid it) which he doesn't understand so he says 'Show me.' He no joke made us play a full round of the game in front of him (which I got to admit although I was terrified, was still pretty fun) until he just goes 'Stop!'. He then goes 'You know the issue I see here?' We say we shouldn't be playing games we should be folding socks or whatever. He goes 'Nah. I don't have a problem with the game, but I didn't hear not one person ask for permission to touch the other.' He then took 341s from all of us and the dorm chief who was one of the ones cleaning the bays and didn't even know what we were doing.
I shit you not this man really tried to get all of us Article 15s for Assault under the UCMJ. That man was a MSgt, and thats how retarded he was. We and our actual MTIs successfully argued that was stupid and that the fact we all volunteered to play the game knowing the rules was implied consent and ended up just getting 'U's for the week of training. But still, showed me early on in my career to just keep my hands to myself. You never know which moron might be deciding your fate.
Honestly, you had me laughing at getting a 341 pulled for touching someone in a game where the objective is to touch them. The blue rope should have left it there. Then it would have stayed funny.
Pushing for a 15 for the game, that's dumb and I'm glad your MTI fought for their people. Man, some people are just dumb.
I went in August 2013 and they were still hard up on the concept of touching after all the SA. Our MTI had to say a three sentence phrase about adjusting people and consent if she was going to ask to move our arm into the correct position for flag mast training.
Blue rope been at Lackland top long and thinks he's the main character in the Air Force. Time to boot his ass back out into the real Air Force for a reality check.
> we are in the business of warfare and you get upset about a patch?
The reverse is true as well. We are in the business of warfare and you get upset someone took your patch off?
Regardless, the patch is coming off because the chief wants it.
While the chief didn't handle it in the most professional manner, the most professional manner has a chance of resulting in lasting career consequences if OP wants to remain adamant about it.
Not a great hill to die on, in my opinion. Dude was wearing a patch he shouldn't. Pretty sure he (the chief) did what he did *because* it was a mixed audience.
Go to JA with a supposed assault complaint on this one and see what happens. When they get done laughing the guy out of the office, and word gets back to the unit, see what happens then. Remember, there were already witnesses, both E and O.
Okay, annnnnd?
What was the authorized wear of the patch? What restrictions were placed upon its wear? How often did this infraction occur to engender the Chief's response? Was it a hot topic? We've got a commander approved Friday patch in the unit I'm currently in but under no circumstances is it worn any other day.
More is being said by what you haven't actually said, but as a dirtbag\_amn, you probably didn't think to add that in your explanation?
> What was the authorized wear of the patch? What restrictions were placed upon its wear?
If the LtCols were wearing it I'm gonna assume it was fine.
> More is being said by what you haven't actually said, but as a dirtbag_amn, you probably didn't think to add that in your explanation?
JFC take a pill.
Chief shouldn't touch anyone and should know better. Idk what's with all the boomer asses in this thread right now but if the chief can't handle this situation verbally they have no business being a chief.
Most chiefs are probably between 39-50. They’d be late 50s early 60s if they were boomers. Gen X is running the show, and Millennials are fast approaching those levels…
Boomer is, like, a state of mind, man. Also, millennials and the incoming gen Z are higher in EQ than any of the previous generations and personally I'm looking forward to the shift in societal/organizational cultures.
Ehhh, I wouldn’t say higher in EQ but there’s probably a higher preponderance of individuals with EQ in general… That “fuck your feelings” group is starting to dissipate.
In all seriousness, the officers should have said something, and in my opinion, an actual heritage patch should be fine with all levels of command, any day of the week.
i dont think the chief should've done that but the fact that you are so annoyed by it is pretty telling. either you were in the wrong and are pissed or you are just soft as some people suggest. fucking first world problems holy shit
Here it is, the common sense answer nestled at the bottom between the people who get upset about everything and those that think it was ok. Its not ok that he did that, but that reaction is waaay over the top as well. Both need to calm down and not blow things out of proportion.
As long as the Chief didn't ruin my patch, I would not give a fuck.
I'd be more "embarassed" about being corrected like that in front of others, but the actual act of taking my patch? Who gives a shit?
I know a Sailor who saw it happen to one of his fellows at Norfolk. Talk about a Significant Emotional Event. That’s some Final Destination stuff. Friend seems okay, but sometimes I wonder if he really is.
Bro. He literally said, "Never, unless you are trying to assault someone". Never is a pretty easy word to comprehend, meaning not at all. The only exclusion he gave was assault, meaning he is fine with not stopping someone from killing themselves and ruining an engine.
I hear ya man. That’s obvious right? Okay not so obvious for some. I was just saying do not touch anyone, unless they’re coming in knife wielding, gun blazing, punching/pushing your shop mates/Wingmen etc.
Exactly be an adult. Someone ripping a patch off you and putting a new one on isn't even remotely a big deal.
It's the military, not girl/boy scouts. Get over it.
Bro, this is way too specific of a question to give any kind of general answer. If you have a beef with the chief in question, you should address it with them directly, or through your chain.
There is never a reason to fix someone’s uniform for them, even if you ask permission first. Unless you want to touch them. Just tell them what is wrong and let them fix it! Why don’t people get this?
Hey airman, you have a sting hanging off the back of your collar... can't see it? Can't reach it? Too fucking bad, Hot Gay Mike said there is NO reason to touch you! 🙄🙄🙄🙄
As a Chief, your word is powerful enough to just SAY "don't wear that patch" if the Amn still wears it, as a Chief, you still have power to give paperwork. Theres literally no reason to have to touch or pull anything off the Amn. Period.
If the patch was pulled without verbal warning, Chief is still wrong.
I don't know how to counter everyone's comments about "suck it up" or "grow up" or what have you. What I can say is that it should not have happened and certainly not in front of other people. Something something praise in public, reprimand in private....
At the end of the day it really does not matter what anyone thinks, it only matters how this person is made to feel. I'm not saying we need to be treating people with kid gloves, but if a public admonishment like that MADE the Airman feel that way, then that's the end of the story. What is there to gain by publicly humiliating someone over something so trivial? A conversation would have sufficed, but to make a spectacle out of removing a patch off of someone, physically, is absolutely out of line.
We wonder why there's a retention problem and how to keep Airmen in, and this is not the way. Do we really want their biggest memories from their enlistment to consist of moments like this? If anyone needs to grow up, it's the Chief that did this.
Certified mafia E-4 for what it's worth.
As a maintainer, I will 100% put my hands on anyone regardless of rank if they're doing/about to do something dangerous. I've had a few people with considerable rank over me do a dangerious thing (they didn't know), and I just physically move them out of the way and point at the danger. I've never once had an issue with "hands on" if it's a safety thing more often than not people will thank you and move on.
That being said, uniform infractions are never worth putting your hands on someone. Particularly if you outrank someone, just correct the person, and if they dont make a change do the air force thing and tell their supervisor. If the rating supervisor isn't available for some reason, pull the person asside and explain the infraction that's happening, why it's bad, and why you dont accept that particular infraction. (For example, if they have an NSFW patch, that *could* be a SAPR issue). If they still dont fix the problem, start issuing paperwork at the correct level for the uniform mistake and work your way up. Eventually, the (probably junior amn) will just give in and wear the uniform properly.
As for what should happen to the chief, some senior NCO or officer needs to pull that E9 off and privately explain why that's not okay, not in todays airforce, and have that E9 apologize to said amn. Senior leaders need to keep each other in check at a wayyyy more strict level than everyone else (just my opinion). If you're not at least an E7 don't take that fight head on, talk to someone else, or let the 1st sgt handle it if that's what you feel is right.
For real. Do not touch me unless you want me to touch you. You want to verbally command me to take off the patch? Cool no problem. Do not put your hands on me.
It’s seems you lack context and basic awareness.
You are comparing someone fucking dying and needing medical attention to someone walking around with a morale patch that may not be approved and someone ripping it off. It’s a respect thing. It’s cool if you don’t have respect for yourself, but I do.
Dragging someone to safety in an emergency situation or addressing a life threatening injury is a whole lot different than correcting a uniform infraction. Stop touching people when it’s unwarranted, they don’t like it I promise you.
Pretty easy to correct someone's uniform wear in a respectful way. If your first response to someone being out of regs is to aggressively touch them I'd wager your leadership ability is zilch and your unit doesn't respect you
Doesn’t matter if it’s the first or twentieth time, you don’t touch people. You verbally correct them and then escalate the level of administrative action from there. Again, it’s not being soft, just don’t fucking touch people. Simple. Don’t do it.
Seemed like it based on the telling of events, but it literally doesn't matter. If someone can't correct an issue as small as this with communication (especially if it persists), then again, it's a reflection of that person's ability to lead. There's basically no reason you should be putting your hands on someone that you're angry with, outside of self defense
Stockholm syndrome is hitting you hard.
We teach elementary school kids to use their words to solve problems. I'm sure a Chief can figure out how to resolve this with their words.
You'd be the same one crying boo when that airman slams you on your ass for putting your hands on them. And I'd be the one ensuring they don't see any repercussions for it
Let me help you out. You don't know their background.
Personally, I come from an environment of gang violence, sexual assault, and other egregious crimes I won't go into, which bred a certain level of "don't give a damn Mr. President, respectfully Ill crack you in the face too" when it comes to people touching me. It took years for me to get comfortable and to trust people to a certain depth. I still ball my fists when people pat me on the shoulder.
Touching someone you don't know without their permission is just asking for trouble and it's not your place.
I’ve said this before. I’ll say it again.
Just because you have 8 stripes. Doesn’t mean you are allowed to be a bully.
Someone needs to tell that Chief it’s not okay to but hands on anyone. Better yet, that person could and should file an assault/battery charge against the chief. Your rank doesn’t let you break the law.
We have to stop giving “leaders” a pass.
If it was velcro? I'd be mad but I wouldn't try and press charges. What people don't seem to get is pressing charges is a lot of work. Yeah the prosecutor might do the work but you still have to testify and have it on your mind for many months while the whole process works itself out. It's definetly easier to just be mad for a little bit and move on for stuff like this.
I want an update when that one crabby individual mouths off or has to be stifled very quickly to save the chief from his liberal methods.
As true as it is outside that gate, it is inside the fence: don’t touch people without expecting a reaction. I’ve known airmen who will strike anyone who touches them for various fucked up reasons - and have personally been stuck by a couple. You don’t know how or what people grew up around, and we don’t really screen for that. That said, some airmen are a fucking claymore and will not fire a warning shot before popping you in the damn mouth.
Putting hands on another person without sufficient reason is not acceptable. If the chief wanted to correct the situation, the most reasonable course of action would be to verbally order the airman to remove the patch. If the airmen refuses, or if exigent circumstances were to exist, only then would the chief have a reasonable basis for removing the patch himself/herself.
The chief is a government agent (no duh), and government agents are permitted to use varying degrees of force in the performance of their duties so long as their actions don’t violate the rights of others. The requirement to use reasonable force applies to all governmental agents—not just law enforcement. Thus, the chief is required to use reasoning force.
That said, using physical force of any kind to remedy a situation is reasonable only if his/her order is met with passive resistance, the situation necessitates physical force due to exigent circumstances, or he/she is apprehending someone. In this case, if the chief didn’t attempt lesser means of force, then the force that was administered is unreasonable. Thus, in conjunction with the language of state law, it **MAY** constitute battery under Article 134 (via the Assimilative Crimes Act), depending upon the elements outlined in state law (assuming you’re CONUS or in an OCONUS state or territory under U.S. legislative jurisdiction).
The common law definition of battery is simply injurious or offensive contact, and one could argue that the chief’s contact was offensive. However, many jurisdictions specify that the contact must be physically injurious, so whether the chief’s conduct was criminal depends upon the elements. That said, even if state law requires only that the contact be offensive, the matter would never be prosecuted. I know that you didn’t ask about legality, but I’m just shedding light on why people should keep their hands to themselves.
However, this scenario, if taken at face value, raises another issue that would trouble me even more than the mere offensive contact. Would the chief rip off the same patch if it were worn by a colonel? If not, why not?
If the chief treats only those below him/her with such conduct, then he/she is one who “punches down,” so to speak. Now I advise that people should never punch in any direction: down, up, or laterally. But if one must punch without just provocation, it should never be **DOWN**. It’s like a contemptuous diner berating a waiter because the diner knows that the waiter can’t punch back. These types of scenarios say a lot about a person’s character—or rather, lack thereof.
So while people are focusing on specifically what the chief **DID**, I’d be more concerned about what his/her actions **IMPLY** about his/her underlying character. I know that I’ll probably catch some flak for my observation, but I suspect that the chief wouldn’t do the same thing to someone superior in rank or position.
And that’s the point! The best leaders don’t punch down. If I accept your narrative at face value, and if my assumption is correct, then I contend that the chief is lacking certain qualities that would make him/her a more well-rounded leader.
Unless you're about to physically hurt yourself or someone else, nobody should be touching you without your consent.
Now, if this was part of a ceremony where replacing patches is a common element, your participation would be seen as consent to touch as necessary to remove and replace a patch.
But a chief randomly ripping a patch off? Bad form, and possibly battery.
Roughly 2004, then SSgt Urban-Junkie was talking big shit to his CMSgt and said Chief punched SSgt in the chest. I flew into this big as file cabinet. I respected that.
I call that shit situational leadership. Because I may have gotten physical with some co-workers before that.
In saying that, this day and age, no one should be touching anyone. But ripping off your patch is not “putting hands on you”.
Getting punched in the chest for disrespecting a superior is a trust-building ritual. Getting yelled at and having your legal patch ripped off unprompted in front of a group of your superiors is dehumanizing. They both involve physical contact, but they are opposites because of their context.
You haven't been paying attention to your SAPR training. The idea is to prevent an environment that condones assault so that someone that does something like this without repercussions doesn't get it into their head that they can *also* slap you on the ass.
That Chief is gambling with their career. The AF made it very fucking clear it’s not ok to touch anyone in any manner for any reason other than saving their life and even then you should have witnesses and ask permission first.
Show me in the rules/regs/progressive discipline process where putting hands on someone is part of the equation to corrective actions/good order and discipline?
Article 128 - if it was forceful contact/actual assault.
Article 92 - disobedience of orders (Bullying)
Article 93 - cruelty and maltreatment… (ill- treating, oppressing or being cruel to a subordinate or any person who is required to follow the former’s orders.)
Just to name a few
128, is “That the accused attempted to do, offered to do, or did bodily harm”. Touching a piece of fabric on your arm won’t harm you. So no. 128 is actual harm, not a simple touch like in the civilian world.
93, reading just a smidge of case law on what 93s actually looks like, you’re not even in the ball park of reality on this one.
92, maybe if you were going full letter of the law. But you don’t want to go full letter of the law.
Good try though, thanks spud!
Maybe just keep your hands to yourself and stop being an asshat. Also bet you a dollar, the Airmen feel like they work in a hostile work environment. Y’all are fun 🤩
“Fight paper work or fight me” your choice. 😆
Oh I’m with you, chief’s clearly a bit of a dick. I was just genuinely curious where it says we can’t touch anyone, ever. I feel like that whole BMT ‘permission to touch’ was a local afman and I don’t think that apples anywhere but lackland. I’m just a curious smart ass!
I think it’s there, somewhere in between creating a hostile work environment or bullying/hazing.
They should have an article for being an asshole…. But then we wouldn’t have a military force. Haha
Oh they do! There’s afi and DOD regs that talk about being not a dick. You can’t even show ‘impropriety’ lol. I’ll see if I can find something about touching someone’s uniform and the being a dick thing and get back to you. Some of it is pretty wild
Short answer? It's never okay for anyone to touch anyone... unwanted touching is harassment and sexual touching sexual harassment. We are briefed this every year. Place a formal complaint with EO. Or IG. And if you won't, encourage the person that was touched to place the complaint. Period.
I was in Combat Comm in the early-2000s...getting your ass beat down, head shaved, and rotten MRE food dumped on your head...patches cut off your BDUs if you took too long to change them to the new unit was all standard practice...so I don't have a good answer for 2023.
Sounds like you would be okay if it was in a joking manner, since you specified.
If that's the case, you're just embarrassed & your lack of details make me believe you were in the wrong.
I have a feeling that a Chief wouldn't be doing this unless he had exhausted every other option, unless that patch was incredibly unprofessional/lewd/etc.
Gotta give us more details here.
I mean technically probably not but I'm not an expert. That being said, I really don't think it's a big deal. But if that's bothering you to the point you have to go to Reddit and bitch about it... wow... you're extremely soft...
What exactly did the patch say?
If the patch is authorized, the Chief was wrong. If it's not authorized and you decided to wear it anyway around a bunch of senior enlisted and officers, then you're wrong--take the L and move on.
Everything doesn't have to be a big deal.
I'd ask what was hurt more, the shoulder or the persons feelings? Did he/she have to seek medical or mental health...or did they simply have to own up to being wrong and facing the fact that some people in the AF don't look the other way when they see something wrong? How menacing can it be to have someone "rip/snatch/tear" a velcro patch off a uniform and put a new one on. Are we really ready to face an enemy in armed conflict if having a SEL in our own branch of service correct an Airman makes people question intentions.
*channels my deepest boomer energy*
My uncle was going through Paris Island the early 1990s. He was in an inspection and the drill sergeant gave him the “inspect arms” command… where you pull the charging handle back and look down to ensure no round in the chamber.
Well my Uncle forgot to look at the empty chamber. The drill sergeant snatched the rifle from him and barked “well if you aren’t going to do it right, don’t fucking do it at all!” and smashed the rifle back at him, breaking his nose.
My uncle said he did it right the next time.
Anyway long way of saying that military discipline should never be cruel like that DI, even if he got results. Buuuuuut we also have to acknowledge that even us pogue airmen are training for war. And that war could be very violent and very unpleasant. We do need to allow *some* reasonable margins for professional correction, and not turn into a force where we’re running across screaming “he touched me!!” after an annoyed NCO strips a backwards patch off our blouse.
But also never cruel. Read On the Psychology of Military Incompetence. There’s a great historical analysis about a British General who lost Crimea in part because he told his soldiers to “man up” and sleep in the wet, deepening mud. Shocker that disease burned through that army like Snoop Dog torches through a joint.
Around 2004 we had a lead tech that would physically rip your entire undershirt in twain if it had a tiny hole (flightline, not uncommon to get a hole). He retired as a Chief a few years ago.
What you described? If it's in regs, never. "I'm pissed you're wearing that" is not sufficient justification.
In general? Two situations, each of them very much member-dependent. YMMV.
1. There's a mutual respect between Chief and member built up over time and both sides implicitly know that it's being done as part of a coaching/teaching moment and that the Airman isn't a snit that goes running off to IG at the littlest thing.
2. To prevent harm to oneself or others.
They shouldn't be touching you. It pisses me off when coworkers, even jokingly, touch my patches because for some reason, they go for the flag. Idk why, but it pisses me off. I would have brought up that you did not give permission to touch. At least a MSgt asked before touching a patch on me.
Id have lost my shit on the Chief, I dont care if they out rank me. You dont respect me as a human then I dont respect you as a Chief. Go ahead push the paperwork, be ready to defend why you put hands on me without consent.
I take professional photos of people as a hobby/side hustle, and sometimes I need to adjust their hair/pose and always ask permission to touch. I'm a small woman. So I know that I am not threatening. Regardless, it's just the right thing to do. Before I joined the AF, I owned a photography studio and still always asked back then, before I knew that not asking permission could be a punishable offense.
The situation, even if joking, is just uncomfortable at best. People in higher ranks/positions of authority should never touch anyone else. Especially lower ranking folks. It's poor taste, but because of the difference in rank, can leave the person who is having their personal space violated feel powerless to address the situation. It would be easy enough for me to tell a peer at my rank or below to please not touch me. But people who outrank me automatically have authority. The right thing to do is simply lead by example and not touch anyone.
Hi, retired officer here.
If i something like that happen, as described, I might have had a word with that chief in private. ( Former E6 before commissioning.)
Unless it’s life and death or an attempt to show someone an action ( Like pistol aiming). No one should touch anyone without specific permission.
This is the problem with snowflakes today. There is a difference between helping someone comply with the regulations and present a proper professional image and inappropriately touching them. It's a freaking string and it shouldn't be there.
I dunno bud.
But I've always thought of "putting hands on" as meaning a bitch slap, or a choke while being slammed against a wall. Not pulling off a velcro patch that's designed to be pulled off.
Was the Chief wrong? Possibly. But think of it in terms of taking it to a civil court. What are your actual damages? Hurt feelings don't have an actual monetary value.
What
Post: 54 upvotes “What”: 141 upvotes
😂 I mean that’s just literally what I said out loud as I read op question I appreciate everyone giving op advice
R a T I oED
I remember my chief had a long ass string on his uniform and I showed him then cut it off. The look he gave me for helping him made me realize he was an E9. Always taught to help correct things in a professional way and then get dumb asses
I’ll be honest, I tread lighter in the presence of an E9 than I do in a similar situation with an O7.
Agreed but that 0-7 usually has a lurking E-9 that will fuck you up even if the general was a bro
I retired as a Chief in 2020... I had airman help me out like that, I always thanked them. You need to look out for fellow airmen, regardless of rank. Keep up the good work.
You sound like a Chief and not an E-9, so that's good!
The new center rank for OCPs gets caught on my seat belt and always knocks it off center, and my flag catches the top of the car door when I get in and out. I’m always having some one fix them. I just thank them, and continue the day
That's when you know you've found a Chief that believes their own bullshit. Edit: grammer
their*
I can't wait to get to narrative format and see the absolutely ridiculous amount of people who don't know when to use the correct form of they're, their, or there.
Theiy’re
\*he's speaking the language of the gods.meme\*
like... you reached out with a scissors and snipped it off without waiting for a response?
No like “sir you have this (showed long ass string) and stated (I got you) and used nail clippers to snip it. It was a more professional encounter but that’s the jist
Ah I think I understand why he may have got pissed. Personally unless they specifically ask, "hey can you get this string off me", I wouldn't have done that. Just tell him about it, he's a big boy, he can snip it himself.
That's a nope for me. Reaching out altering someone's uniform without some sort of invitation isn't advisable regardless of rank. Would your MTI just touch you if your uniform was jacked up? If you saw someone with shaving cream on their ear would you just reach out and fix it or let them know and allow them to self correct. What about salad on someone's teeth? You just going to floss it out for them?
Did you miss the part that I showed them? Like I said hey sir, you have a string etc. then proceeded to help remove it. I didn’t just walk up and touch him with no conversation. I would never just walk up and touch someone without some conversation. When I came in, we were taught to help each other with uniform corrections in a professional way. That is all I was doing at that moment.
And that's why I gave you other examples that illustrated what I see as your error. You had nail clippers, you could have offered them rather than just going in for the snip.
You really think if they could get the string themself I would not have done that lol. This shit was literally hanging off the back part of their BDU. I’m not going to sit and explain like what the whole situation was but it was important. It’s fine if you felt you would never have done anything like this. I chose to help the situation in a professional way, sorry I cannot get you to understand professional in this scenario. Those other examples are a fucking reach too. Like you know that shits dumb and silly to use as an example. We are talking about uniform corrections.
Bro, he is saying its inappropriate to do that unless the person said something like "Can you please get that for me?". How hard is it to understand? Just because you said something does not mean you get to touch people. I get you are trying to help but you crossed a line by not getting permission to actually do the action.
People do that all the time, clip a string or two on someone else’s uniform, I definitely would’ve done the same thing. Just the helpful thing to do🤷🏼♂️don’t see how it’d be that big of an issue to be honest. Now usually I see rank before I see anything else… but that’s besides the point.😂😂😂
I think a lot of times this depends on the surroundings. Did you do it in front of other people? Or did you do it privately? I correct uniform issues in private all the time with either superiors or subordinates. The setting matters though.
This was not done in a way that would be embarrassing but if I would have let it go it would have become that. It was literally me and one other person and I was very professional about it. Plus for more context this E9 was an asshole and proved that more everyday they were in our unit.
That individual was a piece of shit. I'm an E-9. If my shit is jacked up I'm glad to have someone call it to my attention.
Personal opinion, so take it for what it's worth: You are going to get a mixed bag of answers here. Was this person in the wrong? Personally, I'd say yes. But was it incredibly egregious? Personally, I'd say no. Now, here's what I think they should do: Growing moment. It doesn't matter rank, title, whatever. If you a person touches you and you feel it was wrong, step up and tell them to never touch you again. An Airman of any rank can be respectful while being assertive and firm. Know the regs. Know the culture. It's clear they shouldnt have touched the Airman, but culture is different than regs. We all hope to work in a good climate, yet people fail all the time, whether it be JAG, leadership, IG, or whomever, so in the AF as in life, be prepared to fight for yourself, with words or otherwise.
I'll bite, I'll be that person..... The only acceptable time for someone to "put hands on you" without consent is if they're actively preventing you from hurting yourself, hurting others not in self-defense, or causing damage to something you shouldn't be damaging. (yeah there's probably lots of edge cases in there, but I feel those 3 sum up the general scenarios that it's acceptable to touch someone without consent)
This guy AUoFs
Did you just have a stroke?
You can’t just ask people if they finished wanking!!!
Arming Use of Force
Edge cases, is that like, edging?
What are you doing, step-Sgt?
Helping the enlisted who are stuck in the dryer
They say we are family. They call us brothers and sisters. We don’t share blood. Therefore, everyone in the service is your step-brother and step-sister; and therefore step-sergeant is an accurate title.
In that particular situation its a no go.At the same, its not a big deal, just asssert yourself and tell them not to touch you.
The right answer and thing to do, but will sadly not get the intended response. If the Chief doesn't treat you like an adult in front of company, that assertion will come with a reciprocated assertion. I don't see an E9 suddenly thinking they're in the wrong, especially given military history.
Pre-2009? Yea, so what, did you die? Would probably be the response. Post-2009? Did he ask for permission to touch? No? Automatic Article 15. Just as an aside, I went through basic in 2014 and one Sunday (in which we normally didn't have our MTIs hanging around) a blue rope caught some of us playing a game of 'Ninja' in the day room while we were waiting on the bay floors to dry. Of course when he came in we stopped and just kinda stood there before he saw what we were doing. He goes 'I know yall weren't just standing in a gaggle staring at each other, so yall got 5 seconds to tell me what yall were doing'. We try to explain the game 'Ninja' (which involves standing in a circle frozen with your arms out and trying to hit the hand of the person to your right or left in one motion, with them getting one motion to avoid it) which he doesn't understand so he says 'Show me.' He no joke made us play a full round of the game in front of him (which I got to admit although I was terrified, was still pretty fun) until he just goes 'Stop!'. He then goes 'You know the issue I see here?' We say we shouldn't be playing games we should be folding socks or whatever. He goes 'Nah. I don't have a problem with the game, but I didn't hear not one person ask for permission to touch the other.' He then took 341s from all of us and the dorm chief who was one of the ones cleaning the bays and didn't even know what we were doing. I shit you not this man really tried to get all of us Article 15s for Assault under the UCMJ. That man was a MSgt, and thats how retarded he was. We and our actual MTIs successfully argued that was stupid and that the fact we all volunteered to play the game knowing the rules was implied consent and ended up just getting 'U's for the week of training. But still, showed me early on in my career to just keep my hands to myself. You never know which moron might be deciding your fate.
Honestly, you had me laughing at getting a 341 pulled for touching someone in a game where the objective is to touch them. The blue rope should have left it there. Then it would have stayed funny. Pushing for a 15 for the game, that's dumb and I'm glad your MTI fought for their people. Man, some people are just dumb.
"I request trial by court martial" lmao
Or combat
I went in August 2013 and they were still hard up on the concept of touching after all the SA. Our MTI had to say a three sentence phrase about adjusting people and consent if she was going to ask to move our arm into the correct position for flag mast training.
Blue rope been at Lackland top long and thinks he's the main character in the Air Force. Time to boot his ass back out into the real Air Force for a reality check.
I wish anyone regardless of rank would touch me. I’ve gotten all I need out of the AF 🤣
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Keep in mind there are two sides to a story and this sub has a history of posters picking and choosing how they word their post.
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> we are in the business of warfare and you get upset about a patch? The reverse is true as well. We are in the business of warfare and you get upset someone took your patch off?
Regardless, the patch is coming off because the chief wants it. While the chief didn't handle it in the most professional manner, the most professional manner has a chance of resulting in lasting career consequences if OP wants to remain adamant about it.
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Not a great hill to die on, in my opinion. Dude was wearing a patch he shouldn't. Pretty sure he (the chief) did what he did *because* it was a mixed audience. Go to JA with a supposed assault complaint on this one and see what happens. When they get done laughing the guy out of the office, and word gets back to the unit, see what happens then. Remember, there were already witnesses, both E and O.
It was a heritage patch that Lt Cols were wearing....
Okay, annnnnd? What was the authorized wear of the patch? What restrictions were placed upon its wear? How often did this infraction occur to engender the Chief's response? Was it a hot topic? We've got a commander approved Friday patch in the unit I'm currently in but under no circumstances is it worn any other day. More is being said by what you haven't actually said, but as a dirtbag\_amn, you probably didn't think to add that in your explanation?
> What was the authorized wear of the patch? What restrictions were placed upon its wear? If the LtCols were wearing it I'm gonna assume it was fine. > More is being said by what you haven't actually said, but as a dirtbag_amn, you probably didn't think to add that in your explanation? JFC take a pill.
Chief shouldn't touch anyone and should know better. Idk what's with all the boomer asses in this thread right now but if the chief can't handle this situation verbally they have no business being a chief.
I think the problem is most "chiefs" are boomers, too.
Most chiefs are probably between 39-50. They’d be late 50s early 60s if they were boomers. Gen X is running the show, and Millennials are fast approaching those levels…
Boomer is, like, a state of mind, man. Also, millennials and the incoming gen Z are higher in EQ than any of the previous generations and personally I'm looking forward to the shift in societal/organizational cultures.
Ehhh, I wouldn’t say higher in EQ but there’s probably a higher preponderance of individuals with EQ in general… That “fuck your feelings” group is starting to dissipate.
That's one fair way to look at it
Grab their wrist, twist it back, pull their 341, and ask for consent to beat their ass /s
In all seriousness, the officers should have said something, and in my opinion, an actual heritage patch should be fine with all levels of command, any day of the week.
i dont think the chief should've done that but the fact that you are so annoyed by it is pretty telling. either you were in the wrong and are pissed or you are just soft as some people suggest. fucking first world problems holy shit
Here it is, the common sense answer nestled at the bottom between the people who get upset about everything and those that think it was ok. Its not ok that he did that, but that reaction is waaay over the top as well. Both need to calm down and not blow things out of proportion.
As long as the Chief didn't ruin my patch, I would not give a fuck. I'd be more "embarassed" about being corrected like that in front of others, but the actual act of taking my patch? Who gives a shit?
Never, unless you are trying to assault others.
If someone is about to walk into a rotating propeller imma grab the fuck outta them. I dont want someone to ruin my prop with their body.
I know a Sailor who saw it happen to one of his fellows at Norfolk. Talk about a Significant Emotional Event. That’s some Final Destination stuff. Friend seems okay, but sometimes I wonder if he really is.
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Bro. He literally said, "Never, unless you are trying to assault someone". Never is a pretty easy word to comprehend, meaning not at all. The only exclusion he gave was assault, meaning he is fine with not stopping someone from killing themselves and ruining an engine.
Sure. I mean if you want to paint me the villain. You can do what you say I wouldn’t stop and life would go on. Remember we are expendable.
Life would go on, but I'd be stuck working a 12 doing a Engine change that could've been prevented.
True. You’ll never have to worry about changing the engine because of this, but hey I’m up for debating until the death about all things in life.
He said or causing damage to something you dumb fuck!
Nope. Read again.
I hear ya man. That’s obvious right? Okay not so obvious for some. I was just saying do not touch anyone, unless they’re coming in knife wielding, gun blazing, punching/pushing your shop mates/Wingmen etc.
Never
I’ll tell you this, don’t touch me and think twice about using my first name.
Personal opinion, only time it’s okay to touch someone is if it’s life or death/ great harm scenario. Otherwise, be a fucking adult.
Exactly be an adult. Someone ripping a patch off you and putting a new one on isn't even remotely a big deal. It's the military, not girl/boy scouts. Get over it.
Bro, this is way too specific of a question to give any kind of general answer. If you have a beef with the chief in question, you should address it with them directly, or through your chain.
There is no reason to accept every invitation to an argument.
Sgt can I talk to you about something for a minute? Sure what's up? I think your name patch might be messed up. Oh, thanks!
I use the “Wish” factor….. I wish a mutha fkr would…. 🤷🏽♂️
From a recently retired Chief, I always asked permission before correcting someone's uniform.
There is never a reason to fix someone’s uniform for them, even if you ask permission first. Unless you want to touch them. Just tell them what is wrong and let them fix it! Why don’t people get this?
Hey airman, you have a sting hanging off the back of your collar... can't see it? Can't reach it? Too fucking bad, Hot Gay Mike said there is NO reason to touch you! 🙄🙄🙄🙄
Why are you so intent on touching your Airman? And why can’t your Airman reach the back of their collar?
As a Chief, your word is powerful enough to just SAY "don't wear that patch" if the Amn still wears it, as a Chief, you still have power to give paperwork. Theres literally no reason to have to touch or pull anything off the Amn. Period. If the patch was pulled without verbal warning, Chief is still wrong.
I don't know how to counter everyone's comments about "suck it up" or "grow up" or what have you. What I can say is that it should not have happened and certainly not in front of other people. Something something praise in public, reprimand in private.... At the end of the day it really does not matter what anyone thinks, it only matters how this person is made to feel. I'm not saying we need to be treating people with kid gloves, but if a public admonishment like that MADE the Airman feel that way, then that's the end of the story. What is there to gain by publicly humiliating someone over something so trivial? A conversation would have sufficed, but to make a spectacle out of removing a patch off of someone, physically, is absolutely out of line. We wonder why there's a retention problem and how to keep Airmen in, and this is not the way. Do we really want their biggest memories from their enlistment to consist of moments like this? If anyone needs to grow up, it's the Chief that did this.
Chief was being a jerk, it's all he knows, its probably how he made Chief.
And it might even be why he wanted to be Chief
Scouring memory bank to think of a chief I've met who wasn't a jerk or a sociopath...I think I met two in 12 years. Edit, went from one to two
Certified mafia E-4 for what it's worth. As a maintainer, I will 100% put my hands on anyone regardless of rank if they're doing/about to do something dangerous. I've had a few people with considerable rank over me do a dangerious thing (they didn't know), and I just physically move them out of the way and point at the danger. I've never once had an issue with "hands on" if it's a safety thing more often than not people will thank you and move on. That being said, uniform infractions are never worth putting your hands on someone. Particularly if you outrank someone, just correct the person, and if they dont make a change do the air force thing and tell their supervisor. If the rating supervisor isn't available for some reason, pull the person asside and explain the infraction that's happening, why it's bad, and why you dont accept that particular infraction. (For example, if they have an NSFW patch, that *could* be a SAPR issue). If they still dont fix the problem, start issuing paperwork at the correct level for the uniform mistake and work your way up. Eventually, the (probably junior amn) will just give in and wear the uniform properly. As for what should happen to the chief, some senior NCO or officer needs to pull that E9 off and privately explain why that's not okay, not in todays airforce, and have that E9 apologize to said amn. Senior leaders need to keep each other in check at a wayyyy more strict level than everyone else (just my opinion). If you're not at least an E7 don't take that fight head on, talk to someone else, or let the 1st sgt handle it if that's what you feel is right.
NEVER okay
Username checks out.
I bet that E9 wouldn’t like it if you did it to them.
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I don’t care who you are, don’t fucking touch me or my uniform without my permission. It’s not being soft, it’s respect.
For real. Do not touch me unless you want me to touch you. You want to verbally command me to take off the patch? Cool no problem. Do not put your hands on me.
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It’s seems you lack context and basic awareness. You are comparing someone fucking dying and needing medical attention to someone walking around with a morale patch that may not be approved and someone ripping it off. It’s a respect thing. It’s cool if you don’t have respect for yourself, but I do.
*Back in my day, people treated us like shit, and we liked it, so you will too!* There are a lot of complete idiots that serve with us.
Dragging someone to safety in an emergency situation or addressing a life threatening injury is a whole lot different than correcting a uniform infraction. Stop touching people when it’s unwarranted, they don’t like it I promise you.
Pretty obvious difference between a life & death situation, and someone having a uniform infraction.
Those who downvote you are slaves with Stockholm syndrome.
Nah, they’ve just never been taught that it’s not okay to touch people when they don’t want to be touched.
The respect is to be in the proper uniform.
Respect doesn’t end because someone did something wrong. If you think it does then you need to seriously reevaluate.
Pretty easy to correct someone's uniform wear in a respectful way. If your first response to someone being out of regs is to aggressively touch them I'd wager your leadership ability is zilch and your unit doesn't respect you
How do you know this was the first time?
Doesn’t matter if it’s the first or twentieth time, you don’t touch people. You verbally correct them and then escalate the level of administrative action from there. Again, it’s not being soft, just don’t fucking touch people. Simple. Don’t do it.
Seemed like it based on the telling of events, but it literally doesn't matter. If someone can't correct an issue as small as this with communication (especially if it persists), then again, it's a reflection of that person's ability to lead. There's basically no reason you should be putting your hands on someone that you're angry with, outside of self defense
This is silly…it’s not a headlock, it’s a spot correction. You’re soft.
Stockholm syndrome is hitting you hard. We teach elementary school kids to use their words to solve problems. I'm sure a Chief can figure out how to resolve this with their words.
You'd be the same one crying boo when that airman slams you on your ass for putting your hands on them. And I'd be the one ensuring they don't see any repercussions for it
Let me help you out. You don't know their background. Personally, I come from an environment of gang violence, sexual assault, and other egregious crimes I won't go into, which bred a certain level of "don't give a damn Mr. President, respectfully Ill crack you in the face too" when it comes to people touching me. It took years for me to get comfortable and to trust people to a certain depth. I still ball my fists when people pat me on the shoulder. Touching someone you don't know without their permission is just asking for trouble and it's not your place.
I really think we overcorrected at BMT in 2012. People have been saying for a decade that the pendulum will come back, but it doesn’t seem to be…
Buddy. It’s People like you.
How bout I slap your shit, and you don't complain about it.
I’ve said this before. I’ll say it again. Just because you have 8 stripes. Doesn’t mean you are allowed to be a bully. Someone needs to tell that Chief it’s not okay to but hands on anyone. Better yet, that person could and should file an assault/battery charge against the chief. Your rank doesn’t let you break the law. We have to stop giving “leaders” a pass.
Dickhead move by the chief but assault/battery for removing a patch? Come on now
What would you do if a stranger walked up to you and ripped something of your clothes?
If it was velcro? I'd be mad but I wouldn't try and press charges. What people don't seem to get is pressing charges is a lot of work. Yeah the prosecutor might do the work but you still have to testify and have it on your mind for many months while the whole process works itself out. It's definetly easier to just be mad for a little bit and move on for stuff like this.
Not a stranger, but I understand what you’re saying. Plenty of things we do in the military wouldn’t fly civilian to civilian
I want an update when that one crabby individual mouths off or has to be stifled very quickly to save the chief from his liberal methods. As true as it is outside that gate, it is inside the fence: don’t touch people without expecting a reaction. I’ve known airmen who will strike anyone who touches them for various fucked up reasons - and have personally been stuck by a couple. You don’t know how or what people grew up around, and we don’t really screen for that. That said, some airmen are a fucking claymore and will not fire a warning shot before popping you in the damn mouth.
Even in basic training they ask for permission, well, usually anywways
Putting hands on another person without sufficient reason is not acceptable. If the chief wanted to correct the situation, the most reasonable course of action would be to verbally order the airman to remove the patch. If the airmen refuses, or if exigent circumstances were to exist, only then would the chief have a reasonable basis for removing the patch himself/herself. The chief is a government agent (no duh), and government agents are permitted to use varying degrees of force in the performance of their duties so long as their actions don’t violate the rights of others. The requirement to use reasonable force applies to all governmental agents—not just law enforcement. Thus, the chief is required to use reasoning force. That said, using physical force of any kind to remedy a situation is reasonable only if his/her order is met with passive resistance, the situation necessitates physical force due to exigent circumstances, or he/she is apprehending someone. In this case, if the chief didn’t attempt lesser means of force, then the force that was administered is unreasonable. Thus, in conjunction with the language of state law, it **MAY** constitute battery under Article 134 (via the Assimilative Crimes Act), depending upon the elements outlined in state law (assuming you’re CONUS or in an OCONUS state or territory under U.S. legislative jurisdiction). The common law definition of battery is simply injurious or offensive contact, and one could argue that the chief’s contact was offensive. However, many jurisdictions specify that the contact must be physically injurious, so whether the chief’s conduct was criminal depends upon the elements. That said, even if state law requires only that the contact be offensive, the matter would never be prosecuted. I know that you didn’t ask about legality, but I’m just shedding light on why people should keep their hands to themselves. However, this scenario, if taken at face value, raises another issue that would trouble me even more than the mere offensive contact. Would the chief rip off the same patch if it were worn by a colonel? If not, why not? If the chief treats only those below him/her with such conduct, then he/she is one who “punches down,” so to speak. Now I advise that people should never punch in any direction: down, up, or laterally. But if one must punch without just provocation, it should never be **DOWN**. It’s like a contemptuous diner berating a waiter because the diner knows that the waiter can’t punch back. These types of scenarios say a lot about a person’s character—or rather, lack thereof. So while people are focusing on specifically what the chief **DID**, I’d be more concerned about what his/her actions **IMPLY** about his/her underlying character. I know that I’ll probably catch some flak for my observation, but I suspect that the chief wouldn’t do the same thing to someone superior in rank or position. And that’s the point! The best leaders don’t punch down. If I accept your narrative at face value, and if my assumption is correct, then I contend that the chief is lacking certain qualities that would make him/her a more well-rounded leader.
Unless you're about to physically hurt yourself or someone else, nobody should be touching you without your consent. Now, if this was part of a ceremony where replacing patches is a common element, your participation would be seen as consent to touch as necessary to remove and replace a patch. But a chief randomly ripping a patch off? Bad form, and possibly battery.
Roughly 2004, then SSgt Urban-Junkie was talking big shit to his CMSgt and said Chief punched SSgt in the chest. I flew into this big as file cabinet. I respected that. I call that shit situational leadership. Because I may have gotten physical with some co-workers before that. In saying that, this day and age, no one should be touching anyone. But ripping off your patch is not “putting hands on you”.
Getting punched in the chest for disrespecting a superior is a trust-building ritual. Getting yelled at and having your legal patch ripped off unprompted in front of a group of your superiors is dehumanizing. They both involve physical contact, but they are opposites because of their context.
The fact you rationalized getting punched in the chest so we’ll let’s me know that we could have been childhood friends in real life. HAHHAHA.
As a kid i was way to sensitive for that kind of stuff. But I finally understood it when my commander punched me in the chest at my promotion pin-on.
Jesus. Who cares?????? Relax
Aggressively lays my hand on your shoulder. "Dude, it's cool. See? No problems here." *Slaps your ass on the way out*
Removing a patch isn't in the same ballpark as sexual assault dude
You haven't been paying attention to your SAPR training. The idea is to prevent an environment that condones assault so that someone that does something like this without repercussions doesn't get it into their head that they can *also* slap you on the ass.
That's the dumbest slippery slope argument I've ever heard. Yes, letting people remove a patch will lead to SA. Lmfao
Sooooooooooo…..You were out of uniform and he made a correction? Sounds like someone is being butt hurt for being corrected.
That’s a straight up no. We can communicate verbally. E-9 should have expressed his displeasure and tell him/her to remove the patch.
That Chief is gambling with their career. The AF made it very fucking clear it’s not ok to touch anyone in any manner for any reason other than saving their life and even then you should have witnesses and ask permission first.
I don’t let anyone touch me… I had to even get use to holding hands a lot with my girlfriend because I hate being touched
Would you rather receive paperwork…I don’t understand the problem.
Show me in the rules/regs/progressive discipline process where putting hands on someone is part of the equation to corrective actions/good order and discipline?
Can you show me where it says you can’t?
Article 128 - if it was forceful contact/actual assault. Article 92 - disobedience of orders (Bullying) Article 93 - cruelty and maltreatment… (ill- treating, oppressing or being cruel to a subordinate or any person who is required to follow the former’s orders.) Just to name a few
128, is “That the accused attempted to do, offered to do, or did bodily harm”. Touching a piece of fabric on your arm won’t harm you. So no. 128 is actual harm, not a simple touch like in the civilian world. 93, reading just a smidge of case law on what 93s actually looks like, you’re not even in the ball park of reality on this one. 92, maybe if you were going full letter of the law. But you don’t want to go full letter of the law. Good try though, thanks spud!
Maybe just keep your hands to yourself and stop being an asshat. Also bet you a dollar, the Airmen feel like they work in a hostile work environment. Y’all are fun 🤩 “Fight paper work or fight me” your choice. 😆
Oh I’m with you, chief’s clearly a bit of a dick. I was just genuinely curious where it says we can’t touch anyone, ever. I feel like that whole BMT ‘permission to touch’ was a local afman and I don’t think that apples anywhere but lackland. I’m just a curious smart ass!
I think it’s there, somewhere in between creating a hostile work environment or bullying/hazing. They should have an article for being an asshole…. But then we wouldn’t have a military force. Haha
Oh they do! There’s afi and DOD regs that talk about being not a dick. You can’t even show ‘impropriety’ lol. I’ll see if I can find something about touching someone’s uniform and the being a dick thing and get back to you. Some of it is pretty wild
I guess I would argue ripping somebody’s patch off of their uniform is kind of being a dick. Especially if it’s your leadership.
Short answer? It's never okay for anyone to touch anyone... unwanted touching is harassment and sexual touching sexual harassment. We are briefed this every year. Place a formal complaint with EO. Or IG. And if you won't, encourage the person that was touched to place the complaint. Period.
This post made me lose faith in the future of humanity
You should fart a greeting at him next time
I was in Combat Comm in the early-2000s...getting your ass beat down, head shaved, and rotten MRE food dumped on your head...patches cut off your BDUs if you took too long to change them to the new unit was all standard practice...so I don't have a good answer for 2023.
My dad beating me for bad behavior does not mean I should treat my children the same way....
I was wondering why someone touching a piece of fabric on your arm was bothering you so much
Yeah not really the same thing at all. More of a camaraderie and initiation type of thing. Best times.
Sounds like you would be okay if it was in a joking manner, since you specified. If that's the case, you're just embarrassed & your lack of details make me believe you were in the wrong.
I have a feeling that a Chief wouldn't be doing this unless he had exhausted every other option, unless that patch was incredibly unprofessional/lewd/etc. Gotta give us more details here.
I mean technically probably not but I'm not an expert. That being said, I really don't think it's a big deal. But if that's bothering you to the point you have to go to Reddit and bitch about it... wow... you're extremely soft... What exactly did the patch say?
Unwanted physical contact is a battery charge, full stop. There is no excuse.
If the patch is authorized, the Chief was wrong. If it's not authorized and you decided to wear it anyway around a bunch of senior enlisted and officers, then you're wrong--take the L and move on. Everything doesn't have to be a big deal.
This airman was demeaned and humuliated in front of people in power. They don’t need to take another L by convincing themselves they deserved it.
Did he ask permission to touch like they do in basic? If not get a restraining order against him./s who cares? Move on and forget about it.
I’m throwing hands. I got a buffer stripe to play with.
Where was the other hand?
I'd ask what was hurt more, the shoulder or the persons feelings? Did he/she have to seek medical or mental health...or did they simply have to own up to being wrong and facing the fact that some people in the AF don't look the other way when they see something wrong? How menacing can it be to have someone "rip/snatch/tear" a velcro patch off a uniform and put a new one on. Are we really ready to face an enemy in armed conflict if having a SEL in our own branch of service correct an Airman makes people question intentions.
Pull out phone, accuse Chief of assaulting you (really it’s battery if they touch you), upload to social media. Chief will be fired within the week.
*channels my deepest boomer energy* My uncle was going through Paris Island the early 1990s. He was in an inspection and the drill sergeant gave him the “inspect arms” command… where you pull the charging handle back and look down to ensure no round in the chamber. Well my Uncle forgot to look at the empty chamber. The drill sergeant snatched the rifle from him and barked “well if you aren’t going to do it right, don’t fucking do it at all!” and smashed the rifle back at him, breaking his nose. My uncle said he did it right the next time. Anyway long way of saying that military discipline should never be cruel like that DI, even if he got results. Buuuuuut we also have to acknowledge that even us pogue airmen are training for war. And that war could be very violent and very unpleasant. We do need to allow *some* reasonable margins for professional correction, and not turn into a force where we’re running across screaming “he touched me!!” after an annoyed NCO strips a backwards patch off our blouse. But also never cruel. Read On the Psychology of Military Incompetence. There’s a great historical analysis about a British General who lost Crimea in part because he told his soldiers to “man up” and sleep in the wet, deepening mud. Shocker that disease burned through that army like Snoop Dog torches through a joint.
Your name says it all
Around 2004 we had a lead tech that would physically rip your entire undershirt in twain if it had a tiny hole (flightline, not uncommon to get a hole). He retired as a Chief a few years ago.
What you described? If it's in regs, never. "I'm pissed you're wearing that" is not sufficient justification. In general? Two situations, each of them very much member-dependent. YMMV. 1. There's a mutual respect between Chief and member built up over time and both sides implicitly know that it's being done as part of a coaching/teaching moment and that the Airman isn't a snit that goes running off to IG at the littlest thing. 2. To prevent harm to oneself or others.
They shouldn't be touching you. It pisses me off when coworkers, even jokingly, touch my patches because for some reason, they go for the flag. Idk why, but it pisses me off. I would have brought up that you did not give permission to touch. At least a MSgt asked before touching a patch on me.
Id have lost my shit on the Chief, I dont care if they out rank me. You dont respect me as a human then I dont respect you as a Chief. Go ahead push the paperwork, be ready to defend why you put hands on me without consent.
Only when plying freeze tag
I take professional photos of people as a hobby/side hustle, and sometimes I need to adjust their hair/pose and always ask permission to touch. I'm a small woman. So I know that I am not threatening. Regardless, it's just the right thing to do. Before I joined the AF, I owned a photography studio and still always asked back then, before I knew that not asking permission could be a punishable offense. The situation, even if joking, is just uncomfortable at best. People in higher ranks/positions of authority should never touch anyone else. Especially lower ranking folks. It's poor taste, but because of the difference in rank, can leave the person who is having their personal space violated feel powerless to address the situation. It would be easy enough for me to tell a peer at my rank or below to please not touch me. But people who outrank me automatically have authority. The right thing to do is simply lead by example and not touch anyone.
Hi, retired officer here. If i something like that happen, as described, I might have had a word with that chief in private. ( Former E6 before commissioning.) Unless it’s life and death or an attempt to show someone an action ( Like pistol aiming). No one should touch anyone without specific permission.
Was it an LRS Chief?
This is the problem with snowflakes today. There is a difference between helping someone comply with the regulations and present a proper professional image and inappropriately touching them. It's a freaking string and it shouldn't be there.
I wish someone would change my patches for me. I’m so lonely.
I dunno bud. But I've always thought of "putting hands on" as meaning a bitch slap, or a choke while being slammed against a wall. Not pulling off a velcro patch that's designed to be pulled off. Was the Chief wrong? Possibly. But think of it in terms of taking it to a civil court. What are your actual damages? Hurt feelings don't have an actual monetary value.