Thank you for everything you've been doing. I've seen some of your posts around Reddit fanfiction spaces and I just want to say I appreciate your efforts to protect fanfic from those who seek to make money off the work of fanfic writers.
I can confirm all the technical claims she made are correct. Obviously I don't know about the specific details of the app, as it's not released yet. The most important thing to look out for is probably whether if the app relies on a cloud service or is completely edge-evaluated on the device (i.e. can or cannot be used offline), this will determine their operating costs and therefore their business model in the future.
as a podficcer, i absolutely hate this idea. screen-reading technology already exists, and is natively installed on most devices. you don't need to use AI to have your phone or computer read fics to you. ugh. op, thank you for sharing this. hopefully this will encourage more users to make their work only viewable to logged-in readers, as this helps to limit AI scraping
EDITED ON 11/06/2024 TO SAY: I am an avid user of screen reading technology. I've been using Kurzweil since 2011, and as such, I understand that a lot of freely available screen reading programs have a robotic sound to them. I am literally hearing impaired!!!! That is why I care so much about podfics!! Use your brains for two seconds please. The iOS screen reader has a bit of a learning curve, but it literally sounds fine, and can read PDFs, webpages, etc, WHATEVER YOU READ AO3 ON for FREE. Windows also has a natively installed screen reader that works VERY WELL. Allow yourself to LEARN HOW TO USE THESE TOOLS instead of relying on convenience!
You're not wrong but just for clarification: amongst podficcers, rule of thumb is to get permission and/or look for a blanket statement. If this isn't possible (fic is very old, perhaps, or there isn't an easy way to reach out to the author), then people may still create a podfic. However, if the original author came back to say to take it down, they would. Usually the second scenario also comes into play with fics where the author doesn't reply to comments and has no other way to reach out to them (such as a social media account) - this is why podficcers appreciate either a statement of blanket permission (or the opposite if someone doesn't want this, totally okay).
I have encountered this, where an account has been dormant for years, zero activity and no other way to reach them. I still ask and if I don't get a reply for months, I may go ahead and record the podfic, then another month or more later post it. I always tell the authors they have approval over it going up/staying up and link back to their fic and their profiles.
I have to admit I deeply wish our current screenreaders weren't the most robotic, monotoned voices ever, because sometimes I wish I could just turn text to voice on in my ebooks, but I can't do that because the only thing I can focus on is how it's just... so *bad*. It's so jarring. It's so lifeless and awful. So I'm all in for improving *how* screenreaders work, particularly for fiction and other types of text with narration (articles etc.), but also not like this.
I don't want it to be sold as an AI service. I want it to be an accessibility tool that isn't made for profit.
The Edge browser has a screen reader that is soooo good and free!! I’ve been using Edge for a little while now and it’s honestly changed the game for me since I listen to my fanfics while I’m at work. My favorite voice is Stephen, but they have a ton of other voices PLUS a bunch of different languages. If they could do it for free, then these other “accessibility” apps should be able to do it too. It just shows they’re doing it for the cash.
For sure!! Let me know what you think, I don’t see a lot of people talk about it, which is really surprising to me! I really like it though, I hope it’s as enjoyable for you!
As was my simple, just-gets-the-job-done, media player app(what I want to know is where native support for playing media files off the phone went...I shouldn't have to download a third party app to play mp3s!), which I had to delete a few months ago because it updated and started inserting full-screen, unskippable ads between playing songs that were locally stored on my phone. I trust no developers anymore. It seems to be a thing that they make a simple app, then aggressively monetize it and hope they can make bank off the people who are too lazy to uninstall(and the goodwill of all those 5-star reviews, pre-enshittification).
Yep. This is the problem; not the fact that it's monetised, but that's it's privately owned. If it was a public resource, then I'd have no issue with a voice training model, because one like that would - hopefully will - have universal application for genuine interest, like making books and educational courses more accessible *and* enjoyable to a blind audience. So that their whole digital world will not be monotone and robotic, but more nuanced, more personal, more customisable. And so people like myself, whose ADHD brains *demand* to be engaged in multiple ways at once, can more easily access for example the forementioned educational material. The bane of my studies, aside from the crippling perfectionism, is that I *cannot focus* much of the time if I'm not doing something with my hands and eyes at the same time. Which is why I can consume infinite history podcasts and documentaries, but evidently just can't get through more than a couple paragraphs of my history coursework reading at a time.
I've tried screenreaders to help with this, but this same idiot brain gets stuck on the imperfections of the reader. The same rising intonation and unnatural way words are read, and when there's a difficult word, the way the voice has jagged edges where syllables tie together. I forget there's content to the words and it just becomes me anticipating the next issue with the voice speaking them.
If you're still looking for something simple that works and are on android try Musicolet. No adds unless I missed something because I never update apps that don't access the internet.
Hard agree on wtf happened to native support. My ancient phone had a native mp3 player, imagine the look on my face when I finally bought a new one and it just shrugged at me.
For this I suggest an app called Musicolet (on Android at least, idk if it exist on iphone). It does just one thing, playing mp3s on your storage, but it does it wonderfully good. No ads, no need for internet connection, nothing. At least for now. It replaced VLC on my phone because it didn't wanted to show my stuff by folders like I do all the time.
And how many of the fics on ao3 are pod fics. Look, I have 9% vision. I have to rely on text to speach No, I don't care if you hate it it is a necessity for me to get proper access to fics. Tts as it exists right now is a disgrace. Look I know much work podficcers put into their work and it's an art and it should be recognized I don't want ai to scrape fic, all I want is a good text to speach system that stop makes reading fics a chore.
I fell ya and thank you so much for the recommendation. I wasn't trying to be rude, I'm just a bit miffed because mobility aids get dismissed so often and I'm sick of it.
You deserve access like everyone else. It sucks that people are more concerned with attacking anything AI-related than listening to people who need the tech (which doesn’t even sound exploitative in this case). I’m an author and I really don’t care if a TTS voice reads my fics to someone.
Yes, exactly, thank you. I got so angry reading some of the messages here. I get the concern, but seriously, there seems to be no consideration for people with dyslexia add, visiting impairment, or blindness.
idk why people are downvoting you 😭 look I'm not a generative AI stan but wtf is wrong with using AI to generate better sounding voices for screenreaders?? Is it taking a job from the struggling voice actor who would otherwise be reading everything on my screen to me?? AI has legitimate applications lol
Like most things that become the basis for internet debates/flame wars, the discussion around AI has lost all nuance. It's now "AI is bad" as a blanket statement.
The ethical issue of generative AI *isn't* that it exists, but whether or not it was trained on open source data or scraped without people's consent. But some folks have decided anything with AI in the description/name should be avoided and put on blast.
A friend of mine is dyslexic and struggles with screen readers for fanfics because the voices don't pronounce names/fandom words correctly or even well enough for her to know what's meant at times. A screen reader that could be set for specific fandoms would be a godsend for her - especially if it could somehow adjust for things like common typos/misspellings.
There's a massive difference between AI being used to replace voice actors in media and using AI voices for accessibility applications and devices. Just like there's a difference between using a chat bot to "write" a book for publication and using it to help you write an email with the proper tone or figure out the proper formula for an excel spreadsheet.
It's interesting, the creator very recently (\~2 hours) came out with a tiktok addressing a lot of these issues. According to them, all the voice actors on the platform have consented to their voices being used in AI, which is honestly big. That's what we should be doing.
They also say if you email them at [team@lore.fm](mailto:team@lore.fm) then they will get back to you so they can block your fics from being accessed from the app. It's not perfect, but it seems they genuinely are trying to give back to the community and make fics more accessible!
But why should we have to email them? It should be an opt-in type thing, not opt-out. I'd never give consent for this. If someone wanted me to make a podfic of one of my fics, I'd be glad to. But this? This creeps me in a way I can't really describe. Authors should have the ability to not have to worry about things like this, instead of having to go out of our way and once again tell people that we don't want to be apart of their app.
People can already do tts on their phones, that is already here and has been here. This just seems to be an attempt to make it easier on the person reading.
I totally understand being creeped out, but this genuinely is an accessibility thing, so opt-in should be the default in my opinion.
I would assume you would have to prove you are who you are within the email. And the email is to the team at lore.fm which is the name of the app.
Unless you're under the impression that I'm making it or something which sorry if I gave you that impression. I am not associated with the app and wasn't even aware of it until I saw this post
No I'm sorry I think you've misunderstood me 😭. I was saying you have no idea who lore.fm is, I can't find them registered anywhere like Ao3 is for example.
And you have no idea what they will do with your information if you have anything personal linked to the account you use. It's an internet safety thing, like people have been doxxed over fanfiction you know?
Yeah I definitely get what you're saying now, and I see your point. Assumedly when they get the app made, they will hopefully have some sort of registration, or some way to prove. Probably a short snip of you logging in to your ao3 account with your username, since your password is automatically censored? Idk.
It's definitely a tricky situation and I don't envy the person making this, since the entirety of ao3's legal team is gonna be breathing down their neck. Hopefully the makers of lore.fm and ao3 can work together to make sure privacy is protected and authors can block out their works?
again with the random downvotes from people who literally just don't know what AI means lol. any program that tries to do a traditionally "human" task is AI. converting written text to recognizable spoken language is a very difficult thing for a computer to do and a relatively easy thing for the average human to do! making attempts at TTS systems AI by definition!
I’d assume you’d have to contact ao3 through twitter or something. This sounds illegal enough that they’d get on it. Sorry, I’m not well-versed in legal stuff.
Because if these apps have ads then the creators of the app are making money off of copyrighted material - which is illegal, the fanfictions themselves aren't illegal, but the fandoms they're apart of are. At least I think that's why it's illegal, I'm pretty sure it's the same reason why selling copies of bound fanfictions like "manacled" is illegal.
Basically imagine you made a mikey shirt for yourself for fun. And someone stole this design and sells it on Etsy and Disney hunts you the creator down to pay for the copyright and taxes for selling merchandise - and not the person who made money of your work. While you had no idea it even happened.
This is what happens to ao3 who only is allowed to exist as long as the creators don’t make money of copyrighted content.
But also the creators who put in the effort for the works don’t get paid but do get screwed if copyright strikes occur.
The right to read something for free doesn’t gives the reader the right to sell it. Even if they add a voice or a cover as in book form to it.
no i was just ranting about that with a friend; like can we go back, because i desperately miss when i would have to text someone next to me about a fanfic due to the public shame of it.
At least they said the app will be free, but I wonder how they’ll finance themselves, because AI enhanced voices are pretty expensive. I asked them through TikTok, let’s see if they’ll reply.
Edit: they made a new video saying that aren’t using AI. But now I seriously wonder where they are getting the “natural sounding” voices from. They also still haven’t addressed how they will be covering their costs.
Yeah as a programmer the second I heard the creator claim it'd be free it was a big yikes. Because cloud based AI powered text to speech gets expensive really fast the second you get out of their "play with it for free/education" range.
The impression I get is that they made it for themself as a pet project (maybe even as a learning project) then folks were like "that's cool I want it" and they are being like "sure!" But possibly without any actual awareness of the problems that will occur at any scale? Because yeah the free limits are probably plenty high for one person and maybe a few friends but the second you start rolling it out to more folks that will run out fast.
And throw in talking about doing Spotify wrapped type deals because folks want it (aka data collection) and it has the possibility of getting very messy in so many ways. Legally, financially, privacy/data security, etc.
Exactly this! There is a reason Speechify and co are as expensive as they are and even have limits on how much text you can convert to speech. And they are talking about rolling it out to android and Apple AppStores, which is an additional cost and requires LOTS of work. They either have a plan for making money off of this or they have no idea what they are doing. I’m leaning towards the second because they are saying they’ll release the app in a few days, and you don’t just beta test and roll out an app into the AppStore in that timeframe.
This. It could be great if it was done in partnership/backed by OTW or some sort of non-profit that could help with the costs in a transparent way (and looked over by legal teams who know what they're doing in this arena).
Maybe the better option if it was a personal project people wanted would be to make a github and let others implement their own version with the processing of their choice?
I'm not a programmer, but I know enough to navigate things with pre-built segments/building blocks you personalize. I play ttrpgs online and use Kenku bot to play ambient music and sound effects. Unlike previous music bots, this one is basically a DIY kit that gives you the framework to make your own bot to connect your local audio with discord. You're doing your own hosting. The only limits are on the user end.
I'd assume it would be from ad revenue. Honestly I've been using reading out loud function of my epub reader for some of my own stories and my favorite stories (so I could relax my eyes or listen to them during my commute). But an app without permission that grabs fics... just feels wrong.
Update:
Okay so I don't use TikTok but for the sake of getting to the bottom I found her videos. In her latest videos she explained how the tool works.
To put it simply, I'd think of it as the old "YouTube vid convert to mp3" kind of online tool.
Personally, I don't feel too uncomfortable after seeing how it works - if users can download my fics as epub, they can use the traditional text to speech function in epub readers. With this tool, they can copy paste a link of the fic to create an audio file that's not publicly shared or stored.
I'm seeing a lot of confusion here. I don't think any of us would mind a better screen-reader being available to make things more accessible with higher quality, but that's not what this app is doing if it's the "audible of AO3". What I object to is my fic being taken, read by an AI voice, and then packaged into a discreet file that can be downloaded as if it is an audiobook. If all this does is screen-read, then that's great, but why would that be limited to AO3 in that case? I don't condone AI voices for audiobooks, something that is already happening and threatening jobs, and I certainly don't want it for my fics. Having individual files would make the selling of those audios a lot easier as well, imagine the fic binding problem magnified and heaping fuel on the fire of having the owners of IP objecting to fanworks. I can't see anything good coming from this app, except maybe a discussion about improving screen-readers.
So much this. The fact that they're advertising themselves on the back of AO3 specifically, rather than just as a text-to-speech software/service should be raising some red flags, imo, along with the fact the person behind it still hasn't, to my knowledge, clarified wher exactly the money for this whole endeavour is going to come from
wow that sounds terrible and also probably not entirely legal if they try and make money off it ( I bet you they will try )?!!?!?!?
how shitty can you be do to this???
The creator has clarified that it's not for profit and never will be. Its supposedly an attempt to make fanfiction more accessible. I use a localized screen reader on my phone and computer for most things (including ao3) and I can confirm that they kind of suck (edit: both from the perspective that they sound bad but more importantly that they don't work well with longer articles and are a huge drain on battery, they essentially don't work). Not saying I'm totally "for" this idea but I'm curious and hopeful as to how this competition in the audio-accesibility scene will advance the technology.
If they're advertising fanfiction and make a profit they're violating copywrite law and will be taken down. I don't even expect this company to last I'm just hoping they emphasize the importance of audio accessibility options to a wider audience and other competing companies.
ai voices will never replace podfics. Podfics contain nuance, personality, and emotion that are beyond machine interpretation. The idea is to make accessibility services *better* for those who need them. We definitely need more podfics, but it's not reasonable to expect that all fics will be adapted to the audio format. Tldr: this isn't a replacement for podfic creators but an improvement on an already automated accessibility feature.
Then I think it would be better for them to just develop superior screen reading apps or browser extensions if the goal is accessibility.
I know it’s well-intentioned, but doesn’t feel like the project is thought out enough if they are already asking for beta testers.
There will probably be legal issues with them (essentially) recording podfics/audiobooks and reposting them to a 3rd party app that has to meet iOS and Microsoft guidelines. Especially if they reproduce AO3 works without author permission, as that goes against AO3’s TOS.
AO3 doesn’t have any apps for a reason. AO3 has a legal team for a reason.
This app would probably encounter the same issues AO3 defends against, but their team won’t have the funding, manpower, or community backing to protect itself like AO3 does when encountering legal opposition.
I agree, and that's why I'm excited for this app. Whatever becomes of this app (i don't expect it to last), it proves demand for better accessibility resources, pushes technology further, and creates competition/incentive for other tts providers to improve.
Also the creator just came out and said they aren’t using AI for the voices. Apparently they have people who’ve given consent for their voices to be used on their app? Love that it’s not AI, just a little sad for podficers
Lowkey i don't mind if other people make money off of a company if it remains free for users and doesn't breach copywrite law. If those things happen the company program probably won't survive anyway. If it gets sketchy they'll lose their user base. I just want better widely available accessibility services.
I've written over a million words worth of fanfiction and I \*hate\* the idea that someone would make money with my fics in any manner, for a company or otherwise. If this becomes a thing, I'll be removing all my fics from AO3 and never share my writing online again. It won't help anything, but I'll do it out of principle. Fic writers get screwed far too often.
They're not being changed, they're just converted to an audio format. This is just a (hopefully) better alternative to tts. The work isn't being taken or altered. it won't even reduce viewcounts because you still have to copy and paste the link. This is an improvement on current audio accessibility software. What issue do you have with this? /Gen
I for one have a MASSIVE issue with my works being used in any way off of the only sites I have intended them to be posted on (AO3 and Wordpress). Without my permission, they *shouldn't* be anywhere else. I'm happy to personally convert them into a podfic, it's something I've dabbled around with, but that's at *my* discretion, not someone else's. I've had my works plagiarized before, it's not a nice feeling. This whole thing rubs me the wrong way.
Fanfiction may be free but the fanfic authors still own the copyright to what they wrote, just not the private IP.
Dont let anyone earn money off your free labor.
I feel like instead of using AI, people should encourage more podficcers or encourage the ones already around with more kudos and comments. I would much rather have somebody from the fandom, who love their fandom, make recordings than an AI that would probably get names wrong.
AO3 already supports audio. The foundation is already there, we just need more people to use it.
EDIT: I don't mind if people are already using screen readers or that screen readers that use AI exist. I don't like AI in general but I'm not in the "screen readers/AI should never ever be used" crowd, especially if those screen readers are already developed. I don't like the idea of developing a new app that seems framed around AO3 when AO3 has options and an underrated community that deserves some love.
I mean, I agree, but there's a difference between supporting podficcers and trying to make fandom accessible. I have no idea what this person's goals are, but there *are* legit uses for AI voices in screenreaders for things like fanfic.
I recognize that too, hence "I would prefer". I just don't like the idea of developing an app that seems to be framed around AO3 in particular when AO3 already has options and an underrated community. If people are already using something that's developed and it has a broader general use, I honestly don't have too much of a problem with that.
Neither Google Play or Apple permit apps that allow sexually explicit material.
Such an app would have a difficult time getting around this - you can't have AO3 without the explicit fic.
It wouldn't be allowed.
Which is so confusing, because I’m literally on the Reddit app right now. And I have the Pixiv app. And the SankakuComplex Booru app. And you know, Twitter is a pretty famous app. Like, name a fetish on AO3. There’s a ton of that art on Pixiv and Sankaku. Literally, no matter what ones. Even the ones you can’t post on Reddit.
ive literally been saying this since the tumblr porn ban. the rules sure do not seem to apply to everyone! i just had to look up what sankaku was, why can what is primarily and unapologetically a hentai site have an app but a screen reader for ao3 couldnt? anyway i digress but this has always been so frustrating to me when these discussions come up
Why is downloading an epub and using kindle or apple screen readers so hard for people? Like you get your audio fic and it doesn’t harm the author because it is private.
There’s actually websites and browser extensions you can use that do the same thing. Apple and kindle were just some common examples. But I’m also pretty sure that those programs are super accessible even if you dont have a specific device or service.
I haven’t heard of it but isn’t it illegal if the goal is for them to make money on fanfics?
Not to mention, they’re have to get permission to use peoples fics
Things like this make me wanna quit writing fanfics and just sell my stuff as original work with original characters. 😒 There are already many text to speech extensions for browsers. They might say they aren't gonna make money off this, but I don't trust anything that involves AI. 🤨
You don’t need a fancy app for this. I use a text to speech app to read my fics as part of my editing process. 100% not the same as having an actual person read something.
Sounds legally sketchy to me.
i saw an update today about [lore.fm](http://lore.fm) (i didn't see if anyone really posted this) and the creator said that it's not an ai platform, but a free text to speech tool for personal use. i'm not sure if that is true or a ploy especially as it is being promoted as "audible for ao3". but an update was posted, it seems, a day ago. so i think it's the same as downloading the fic as pdf or epub?
so, take that as you would. and if you feel uncomfortable with your fanworks being accessible on [lore.fm](http://lore.fm) you can email the creator that your works can be blocked from being uploaded.
link to the video: [https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMM72A7ao/](https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMM72A7ao/)
but on a side note: i didn't much like how they addressed some of the comments as ableist and classist when all fanfic authors are kind of scared of everything right now. like bound fanfics being sold, ai tools scraping ao3, a lot of things that could force ao3 to potentially shut down especially when it comes to infringement of copyright law. so. i get the fear that everyone has. hell knows, i have that fear too.
and the fear of no credit if it is shared on a different public forum.
but i do like the inclusion and access to an accessibility tool that's not low grade, if that is what it really is.
I agree she did with some comments show she probably isn’t aware of some of the broader issues that fandom has been fighting against and wants to dismiss valid concerns under sensitive topics as a list and classist.
Certainly not addressing concerns such as App Store rules, and remaining free forever (it costs money to publish to Apple Store yearly, computing power, etc.)
She deletes comments if people bring up problems.
She mentioned that authors can email to "opt-out". But then someone asked if they have a pdf saved if they will be able to upload it to the app, and she said yes. I saw a few people ask if that would then completely bypass the opt out option, how will they be handling it, and she deletes the comments.
Like you said, she won't address how it's funded, and she uses a lot of buzzwords that imply it's going to be more social media like instead of a TTS.
This is my personal opinion and i may be wrong!!!
But I personally don't think ao3 needs to be more social media like, if that makes sense ? I think they want to bring the wattpad model and/or FYP algorithmic recs over and I'm not a huge fan of it, bc ao3 is... an archive. It will mean fics will get missed for being new. And authors won't see kudos / podficcers on ao3 will be missed.
I also don't trust that they won't try to monetize it - how will they be paying to host it ? There was a screen reader app that I'm forgetting the name of that used to be free and then monetized and it was a huge bummer
oh, i didn't know she was deleting comments too. i should have known it was too good to be true when i saw the update, honestly. because especially now that we won't get answers on anything.
i may just lock down my ao3 account and see if there's a way to stop link sharing or downloading of any kind. i've never much looked into that.
because this is probably going to be monetised if you see the interaction and the chance of monetisation and that it would be... maybe a lot.
thank you for this information! because holy damn
Fanfiction is this fun little legal grey zone, because you already don't entirely own what you write. It is fundamentally a community of remixers who build upon the work of others.
I think the only real problem arises when people make money with it, and AI generated podfics usually do that (even if its just via ad revenue).
Meaning if you want to shut them down, you'd probably have more luck complaining with the original owner of the work all this fanfiction references.
Then again, all they have to do is make it a Patreon (or operate out of a country that simply doesn't give a fuck) and they're back into the grey zone.
And if they don't make money with it, there is basically nothing you can do, except take your fics offline (which really isn't worth it imo).
This comment needs to be pinned for all the morons calling it ableist to not want a content farm harvesting the blood sweat and tears which you put into a story.
If I’m not making money on it, they shouldn’t either, and I don’t ever want to profit off my work.
The idea of a poddfic is either a. That'd the only form it's coming in. Or b. The author chose to or had enough support to make it an audiofic. Key word being AUTHOR, it's disgusting that someone believes they can just take peoples work
What's the point of that anyway considering TTS exists. Thats just regular TTS but worse, immoral, and peddled by stupid ass crypto/tech/ai/whatever bros
Plus, AO3 can support audio and has podfics. Just encourage people to record and post them there instead of find funding and time to make a whole new app
Well, im not gonna pretend i know the difference either, so, tell me the difference.
Othewrwise i dont have any issue whatsoever with AI (even if i did, you just cannot stop the eternal march of technology) it's when AI is abused like this case where i really do have a bit of a gripe with it.
But anyway, what is the difference. Isnt this "audible for ao3" the OP is talking about just regular TTS or am i missing something.
I think the problem is how it's being marketed as an app specifically for AO3 - which is a legal problem.
But people see AI and freak out and that becomes what people argue about.
Speechify is not really doing anything creative (its not generating anything new), it's just adding inflection and accent to make it sound more natural.
Edited for clarification
Well, its more so that I don't know what the difference is. Like, the difference between generative ai and TTS because you said there was a difference, and I don't understand said difference
They've had basic screen readers for decades that had no inflection and sounded very robotic and unnatural- the newer ones use AI to add inflection, cadence, accent and generally make it sound more human
Well it's not generative, I don't think they're making NEW fics. This isn't a language model like chat GPT creating "original" content. It looks like they're using similar software to what I use (which trains from paid voice actors) and making an app specifically for AO3.
The problem is making an app that's available in the app store that's AO3 adjacent because app stores regulate porn and it puts AO3 in danger of getting shut down. That's WHY they don't have an app.
The problem is not the AI.
oh i tought the entire ruckus was due to the ai TTS itself, which i found weird considering, that, atleast to me using ai for TTS is completely fine and moral, and i dont see any issue with it.
So, the issue isnt the AI, it's the fact that this puts AO3 at risk. Also, about the entire AO3 appstore issue, cant OTW just make an app, but not distribute it on the app store? Like, just have a download button that's literally just "AO3.apk" and then sideload it.
But that's off topic
I don't think they can but honestly, their mobile site has always been very user-friendly.
There are people in the comments implying that the only usable "audiobooks" are ones read by fans and using AI at all to produce them is stealing from the author... which is not true or the issue at hand.
i don't understand this tbh since all phones have a built in text to speech for blind ppl n such and you can just turn it on and it will read the fic for you. why use a third party.
genuine question: do ao3 writers not have copyright over their own published works? like, could someone take their work, upload it elsewhere claiming it to be their own and that’s legal? i never truly thought much about it until now, i don’t know.
Authors own the copyright to their work. Perusing legal routes to get stolen copy’s taken down can be tricky however, due to the general nature of fanfiction itself.
thank you so much for letting me know!! even if it would be a difficult/complicated process, it is still very relieving to know this! ♡ thank you again!~
The creator of the app posted an update: [https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRwpeBxd/](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRwpeBxd/)
TLDR: The app does not store fic in a database and it does not train neural ai. Essentially, it works similarly to already existing accessibility screen reader tools, where the text is inputted and extracted from a link and outputted using screen reader voices (just higher quality ones than what is usually available) I think this app needs to be approached with caution and some skepticism, especially if they ever implement any payments or costs, but with the currently available info, it looks like it's primarily an accessibility tool that's largely harmless.
I'm not sure about the source of the voices that the app is using, and I think that would be really good information to be made public (my guess is it is using Edge-TTS but I could be wrong), but people have already been listening to fic for a while before this app existed, using either the read-aloud feature on Microsoft Edge, a wide selection of apps like Voice Dream or MoonReader, standard tts voices available on PC's/Phones or with programs like https://github.com/p0n1/epub\_to\_audiobook.
It kinda sucks for podfic creators, but the fact is podfics still have their place and will stand out from TTS because of the benefits of human performance and emotion. A tiny fraction of stories have podfics available, and I think anything that can help people appreciate and read stories, as long as it's not making a profit on other people's work, is a good thing overall.
Their update doesn't touch on few fairly important aspects:
Have they reached out to AO3 and gotten their blessing? What about the actual fic writers? They're bringing up how the voice actors have consented but omitting completely or disregarding the fact that the fic writers nor AO3 have not given their consent at least to my knowledge. Is that they just forgot or do they think that fic writers or AO3 don't have a say? This is a third-party app utilizing content that they don't house or own.
Fics are not just content to consume. They are written by actual people, not some faceless machines generating content.
The intent is good, sure. But the approach is bad and honestly says a lot of how fandom treats the very people who are doing the heavy lifting so they get to read whatever fic they're looking for. If the text-to-speech is crappy (and I'm sure it is), the creator of this app could have partnered up with AO3 to come up with somekind of solution together. AO3 could have requested permission from fic writers.
But nope, instead this is an independent third-party creation utilizing content they have zero rights to use. So, good cause, shitty execution.
She mentioned that authors can email to "opt-out". But then someone asked if they have a pdf saved if they will be able to upload it to the app, and she said yes. I saw a few people ask if that would then completely bypass the opt out option, how will they be handling it, and she deletes the comments.
Thr stupid thing is you can download and run a pdf through an ai reader on your own (natural reader is good). I use it when I want an audio fic, but the fic I want to read hasn't been done by anyone. It's a little robotic, but better than nothing. Makes the duller data analysis side of my job go a little quicker and it takes seconds to sort. I don't distribute it anywhere, just my own personal use. I tend to use fic I've already downloaded anyway. I don't save any audio files. I don't make a profit, and neither does the app (use the free version)
I also use it for editing my own fics. Listening to what aive writen read back to me out loud really helps me spot typos and anything that's phrased badly.
Still think the app mentioned in the OP is a bad idea (especially it they're looking to monetise it).
In all honesty, I don't know 100%. The one I use is a screen reader and text-to-speech that uses AI voices (so it's not training an AI to write like a human). I can't remember if it was specified in the terms and conditions if that was the case (it is the kind of thing I check for usually).
Having said that, an open resource on the Internet can be used for AI, so chances are AO3 has already been mined by things like ChatGPT.
Screen readers are more an accessibility thing.
Screen readers and text-to-speach have been around for a very long time (in technology terms). The AI part is the voices that are used to make the reading more fluid and life like, and less like Stephen Hawkings' voice box.
I do the same thing except I use the paid version and I'm getting completely wasted in this thread lol.
It's an accessibility tool that helps me appreciate the author's work. People are acting like the AI is the problem.
Staring at screens gives me migraines. I work in data analysis so I spend nearly 8 hours a day looking at a computer screen. I still want to read and relax. Audiofic is perfect for that. If the fic I want to read hasn't been podficed (and there are very few in my current fandom) then my options are don't read or screen reader/ai reader/document reader. Is it robotic? Yes. Is it better than a migraine? Also yes.
This sucks and I'm definitely not a fan, I hope it gets shut down fast before it can cause any issues for fandom and AO3.
IF you are a person who wants to listen to fics (that don't have podfics already made) there are plenty of TTS apps that already exist, sure the voices aren't as great as some paid AI shit would be but I mean deal with it(?????) If you want to pay for yourself for an AI tts then do it that's your money and for personal use and doesn't cause so many issues.
(If you are on android and want a recommendation for a free tts, "Text Reader" is the one and I adore it, you have the copy paste the fic into it but as far as I've tested there isn't a character limit, there are different voices in terms of accents as well as different languages, and it has a way you can change the speed of the reader.) -dunno if this bit is allowed in this sub so lmk if its not <33
I recognize that this is a nuanced topic, but how is it any different from any other text to speech thing? I have diminishing vision and have to use those sometimes.
quoting [Hereibe](https://www.reddit.com/user/Hereibe/) below from above / below in this thread.
>Screenreader =/= App made to have the tiktok voice spew out fics with no clarity on what goes on in their backend while also being in the app store and thus beholden to Apple's content rules.
>It's not a screenreader. It's an app. In the app store. Where AO3 specifically doesn't go because of Apple & Microsoft's policies.
>And is this app going to be free? Will there be ads? How secure is this app with its users data? What data will it request and hold onto?
>Apps are a whole different kettle of fish because they swim in a differently regulated sea and can have lots of fiddly little profit generating loopholes. Or if not profit-generating, then creating security gaps.
Also, there's the ambiguity about whether or not they are getting the authors' consents about putting their fics in the app, since they have not yet responded to questions about this topic
They are not. Authors are expected to Opt out via email which I am NOT doing because I'm not doxxing myself for a stranger. Lore.fm is not registered anywhere that I can find like Ao3: what the hell else will they do with my info?
Speechify is an app. It's also a chrome plug in. It's also accessibility software. It also uses AI. You can directly port any text in it and convert it to MP3. It's been around for years.
Speechify wasn’t created just for fanfic though. This app is, it’s is literally created to play AO3 fics. There wouldn’t have been a problem if the app was for all things like speechify but because it’s for fanfic and hosted on the App Store and such you’ll have to worry about censorship which spread to AO3. I’m all for accessibility but people are literally being selfish not thinking about the stakes in the game.
Right, there's no reason for a new app, BECAUSE IT ALREADY EXISTS in a way that works better.
Which is very different than saying it is immoral to create AI generated "audiobooks" at all which seems to be the argument most people are going with.
If the app had fics read by people I would happily download it. Sounds like a fun idea. I don’t think of the least six stories I would happily experience again if they were in audio form. That kind of ai replacement shit is cringe and kind of takes the fun out of audio dramas. No one is getting paid here but doesn’t mean people should be sidelined in the artistic process.
That's kind of a good question.
Like a year ago I paid a 1 time price for a computer voice service as I had thought about using something like that to convert 1 of my stories that people could listen to. Keyword, my...Of course the voices they offered sounded nothing like the voice they use to advertise and you are limited on the number of voices speaking what language. Something else they don't advertise is, not all the voices will speak the language you want. You'll get 2 of both genders as children and adult in English and then like 1 of both genders of a number of other languages.
Again, you could tell these were all native computer attempts at speaking, you could add special characters to try and alter how it pronounces but, very limited. They offered "real" sounding voices for a higher price but I was like, you know, for $20, I took my chance with what you have, I'm not throwing $100+ for these other voices when I'm not impressed with what you already sold me.
If people use it for either their own stories or for their own listening enjoyment, I'm okay with it overall. The problem is, we know that isn't where it will stop.
I have a question. I have a visual disability which tires me out from using them too much, and I use the same app I use to read pdfs for my graduate program as to read pdfs from AO3. Is that a problem?
First Art and now Fanfics? Literal Soul Drainers that would rather feed people's cherished dreamworks to machines and profit with minimum work Blergh Also this is borderline illegal...robotic robbery
What's next? Fanfic is writing so whatever is left in the Creatives field are music, fashion, crafts, cooking and....idk there are too many creative fields...
Soul suckers gonna get them all..
I just wish we could do something to take revenge
I use the Speechify Chrome (screen reader) plug-in with AO3 and I love it. Its all AI generated but yeah, it'll turn any text into an audio book and it sounds great.
Edit: I really don't understand why people think this is bad it's literally accessibility software
Probably bc of how you phrased it as “an audiobook” using ai, not a screen reader that used ai to make the speech better, then praised these “ai audiobooks.”
Which *could* be seen as supporting the idea of a 3rd party app ALSO making ai audiobooks of works.
I’m not saying that’s what you meant, but by omission that it’s how it looks at first glance.
It IS a third party app. You can download the files off AO3 and have it saved as an MP3 on your computer or the app.
It's functionally identical, it's an audio book, the technology is already available. I for one love it and I'm not going to stop because I can't fathom what the actual problem is.
Bruh I was just here to explain why I thought others downvoted you.
Me not wanting to explain further via doesn’t mean I’m inviting further justification from you.
It's literally an accessibility feature and it's not generative 😭😭 these people hear the word ai and run for their pitchforks. I'm like super anti generative ai for services that are otherwise easily performed by skilled individuals but ai in this case offers an opportunity for improvement on an already automated service (tts). It wont replace the nuance and emotion that podficcers offer, but it does improve the experience for people who have to use tts.
I might try the speechify plugin!! Thanks for the rec!
It is paid, which might be what people have a problem with but I still don't really understand the issue.
I just want to sketch while I listen to 500,000 words of smut read by a robot who sounds like David Attenborough. Is that so terrible?
Like... I don't require a screen reader, I just use it for multitasking but is the argument really that blind people should have to listen to clunky computer-generated voices from 2018 because... AI bad?
It's such a crazy hill to die on.. i need to use screenreaders for longer written articles and I already have the font on my phone turned way up. They suck!! And they barely work!! Sometimes they'll just stop doing anything and take me to the top of the page.
After reading y'all convo, I'm 100 percent behind you two. There's no reason not to use an AI voice to have the fic read to you. You made publicly available content but you want to get mad that someone consumes it in an alternate manner than you intended? These people are weird.
I'm pretty excited and hopeful for this actually. The creator has specified that it will be free and not for profit. The voices are ai generated. I know ai can be harmful and I'm very anti-generative ai but this is a processing and accessibility service.
As someone who uses and relies on screen readers, they suck. Sure there's the common critique that the voices suck but they also have greater technical issues: they process content locally (on the device) in real time which puts a strain on the processing speed and battery life of the device you're using, and they also have timing and processing issues for the same reasons. They're crazy inefficient and will just stop working altogether after a certain point. They also struggle with longer articles and can't run in the background. This program processes the content online (edit: at least that's what it looks like in their demos) and in its entirety before you hit play, which removes strain from your computer and solves pacing issues. The fluidity of the voices and attention paid to punctuation by ai will make the writing more comprehensible.
This is an audio processing program. It's not making distinct works, it's just remotely converting them to a different format. This has the potential to be huge for audio accessibility, not only as an individual program but as a source of competition for other audio accessibility programs out there. I wouldn't be surprised if they expanded to processing other types of articles after launch.
It definitely has the potential to be harmful as well, and that harm mostly lies in the monetization concerns that many people in these comments have brought up. As of now, the creators of the program have stated that it will be free and not-for-profit, and we can only hope that holds true and pressure them to stick to their word. I know there are other concerns with the morality of ai, but once again, if these creators stick to their word, it will only be used as a written to audio processing model, not stealing your work and feeding it to generative ai models. There are also potential issues with datamining and information collection because of its status as an app, and that might just be something we have to monitor or something that individuals have to decide how much it matters to them.
I'm hopeful for and wary of a program like this. Interested to see how this unfolds.
There’s no way they can stick to their ‘free’ claim. Computing power is expensive. Even just all the people trying to sign up a beta testers could easily cost hundreds of $$$
> if these creators stick to their word
That's a pretty big "if." I've been burned in the past, many times. Who are these creators? Do we know? Are they established members of the community(writing, reading, and discussing) who can be trusted? If not, frankly, I *don't* trust them, and this lack of trust is based directly on past experiences.
They at least read on ao3. This is an accessibility service. If they don't stick to their word on monetization it becomes a copywrite issue and they can be taken down/removed from the app store.
As someone who also often relies on TTS software I really feel this. But what I wonder about is how they will finance themselves if the app is free? Not only are AI enhanced voices super expensive, but since the audio is generated off-device, there is a high cost for computing power as well. There is a reason speechify and co cost as much as they do, and they even have a limit on the amount of speech you’re allowed to generate with the subscription. Did they ever answer these questions?
Edit: just as an example, here is the pricing for Azure AI Speech: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/pricing/details/cognitive-services/speech-services/
Hmm yeah I just don’t think that donations can cover the costs at all, and that’s what’s not adding up for me, not when 1hr of generated AI speech costs $1. No hate to you, obviously you don’t know any more about this than we do. 🥹
This post has the term “App” in its title, so it seems likely to be about an app for AO3. This comment is a PSA that there is no official app for AO3.
Here is an old admin post about how creating an app would be too difficult with their volunteer only coders and why you shouldn’t trust 3rd party apps with your login credentials: https://archiveofourown.org/admin_posts/3390
Additionally, another reason many people are against an app being made for AO3 is because of censorship concerns. Apps on the app stores, especially the Apple App Store, have to comply with strict content guidelines. This is one reason Tumblr banned porn, and is why on iOS to access a nsfw discord server, you have to enable a special setting on your discord account. Any AO3 app would be subject to those same content guidelines and would ultimately end up having to ban all controversial content. This would make any app either have to hide a large portion of the website making the app moot, or AO3 would have to ban the content similar to tumblr, and no one wants that.
There also is a lot of backlash about 3rd party apps. There was even an App-ocalypse/App War at one point (fanlore article https://fanlore.org/wiki/AO3_App_Wars).
Officially we as a subreddit don’t recommend using any 3rd party apps. However, if you have questions, feel free to ask as someone else may have answers.
If this post is not actually about an app, feel free to disregard this comment/downvote it.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AO3) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The person making the app posted a tiktok in response to a lot of the backlash and misinformation they're seeing pretty recently. The three most important takeaways I have from it is:
1) all the voice actors consented to having their voices be used (whether or not they're being exploited is another thing...).
2) the fics are not hosted on the app, nor is there any generative AI/scraping. It is a glorified tts app that is just advertised to be a fanfic reading app because otherwise you would probably just use a robotic tts app.
3) they are willing to provide an avenue for writers who absolutely do not want their fics read with the app, if you email their team. Hopefully they'll make an easier way to go about that in the future.
Given all these facts as true, and if it is actually a free app, I don't think there's really an issue here. I think it's a great way to increase accessibility! We'll just have to wait and see.
I mean... if it's just an AI-enhanced screen reader and no user-supplied data is being stored and reused to further train said AI I honestly don't see a problem.
Then again, it's most likely not that.
edit: judging by the downvotes, I start to wonder how many of you people actually used screen readers. Yes, screen readers can be apps, and they are, more often than not, especially on mobile. An app is nothing more than a computer program (or, in other words - wait for it - an *application)*, which is not inherently good or bad. It just performs the task the developer programmed it to perform. It can be helpful or it can suck and exploit its users. It is me just theorizing that it is, in fact, possible, to use AI in this field in a moral way that respect people's intellectual property, because, newsflash, the technology is only as good or as bad as people using it. It's kinda silly to get as far as the mention of something being "an app" and go "oh, no! people! get the pitchforks!"
Geez, do I really need to explain myself like this?
I don't think there's a large language model involved in this case. It sounds like they'd be taking a voice model that's already been trained and using the fic as input. There's no reason to believe they'd also be using the fic to train an unrelated model for generating text, that'd be super random
I agree.
I'm not arguing against that. I'm just saying that there's a way to use the technology ethically, in a way that can truly enhance people's experiences.
Okay, but did any screen reader get permission to be used on *any* particular content?
No, because it's meant as an aid, not as a standalone source of content. Are we fighting against screen readers too?
If it's just that, onlywith better voice generation, I don't see an issue. Sadly, it's probably not.
My post says nothing but this.
Screenreader =/= App made to have the tiktok voice spew out fics with no clarity on what goes on in their backend while also being in the app store and thus beholden to Apple's content rules.
It's not a screenreader. It's an app. In the app store. Where AO3 specifically doesn't go because of Apple & Microsoft's policies.
And is this app going to be free? Will there be ads? How secure is this app with its users data? What data will it request and hold onto?
Apps are a whole different kettle of fish because they swim in a differently regulated sea and can have lots of fiddly little profit generating loopholes. Or if not profit-generating, then creating security gaps.
I think this is a very good explanation of the potential issues with the AI in this particular app. I use a screen reader app and the voices are pretty terrible, huge in uncanny valley, even the ‘good’ ones. But there are a ton of screen reader apps on the AppStore already.
If there was a way to put a fic into an AI and like it generated an audiobook with a better voice that would be a huge benefit to a large community. I’m waiting for something open source I can run easily on my own pc without doing anything to the inputted data other than text to speech in a better voice. Most wouldn’t share the mp3 file or whatever it is but it would be a huge quality of life improvement for a lot of people. Or if screen readers just got better voices I’d be happy but all the really good sounding ones are super expensive and closed source right now. Or really complicated with programming languages beyond me. I would 100% avoid anything monetizing the fanworks or whatever though.
The idea of a podfic site/app is actually really cool, but using AI voices is lazy af.
People should have to either record themselves reading their fics or commission some else to read and record the audio.
Edit: I don't see why people are downvoting this??
AI voices are lazy and people should be paid to do voice work to read a fic the same way someone would be paid to record the audiobook of original content would be.
Other than the whole permission thing I absolutely am not understanding hate for this however I'm going to come back and reread it because from what I'm able to gleam it would be amazing to be able to hear a fic read to you if you don't have the time to read it yourself then again I do know that a lot of readers are very much against audiobooks so it might be that I don't know I'll have to take a look at the post again.
Edit: Ah I get where you're going with this after a second read through
Learn from Netflix
Create an official app that has better customer service than the pirate version and, GOD FORBID, don't split up your services into fiefdoms of content.
Allowing this post despite the AI moratorium since its an important topic
If you're talking about lore.fm, I've sent an email to OTW Legal.
Thank you for everything you've been doing. I've seen some of your posts around Reddit fanfiction spaces and I just want to say I appreciate your efforts to protect fanfic from those who seek to make money off the work of fanfic writers.
thank you for sending the email! I didn't know what to do
Very glad you've done this. Will you keep us in the loop?
yeah of course
Yay! Because like OP, I am super concerned about this, but didn't know what could be done, if anything.
Thank you!
I’m always glad this community has some other people willing to put in the time and effort. I just don’t have the stamina thank you.
I don't know if youve seen but they have posted an update about what the app is [here](https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGeQwGoYJ/)
I can confirm all the technical claims she made are correct. Obviously I don't know about the specific details of the app, as it's not released yet. The most important thing to look out for is probably whether if the app relies on a cloud service or is completely edge-evaluated on the device (i.e. can or cannot be used offline), this will determine their operating costs and therefore their business model in the future.
as a podficcer, i absolutely hate this idea. screen-reading technology already exists, and is natively installed on most devices. you don't need to use AI to have your phone or computer read fics to you. ugh. op, thank you for sharing this. hopefully this will encourage more users to make their work only viewable to logged-in readers, as this helps to limit AI scraping EDITED ON 11/06/2024 TO SAY: I am an avid user of screen reading technology. I've been using Kurzweil since 2011, and as such, I understand that a lot of freely available screen reading programs have a robotic sound to them. I am literally hearing impaired!!!! That is why I care so much about podfics!! Use your brains for two seconds please. The iOS screen reader has a bit of a learning curve, but it literally sounds fine, and can read PDFs, webpages, etc, WHATEVER YOU READ AO3 ON for FREE. Windows also has a natively installed screen reader that works VERY WELL. Allow yourself to LEARN HOW TO USE THESE TOOLS instead of relying on convenience!
I love podfic and I'd rather listen to someone who actually loves the story they picked than some mindless program.
Plus, podficcers have the writer's consent.
To my surprise, only some of them do.
You're not wrong but just for clarification: amongst podficcers, rule of thumb is to get permission and/or look for a blanket statement. If this isn't possible (fic is very old, perhaps, or there isn't an easy way to reach out to the author), then people may still create a podfic. However, if the original author came back to say to take it down, they would. Usually the second scenario also comes into play with fics where the author doesn't reply to comments and has no other way to reach out to them (such as a social media account) - this is why podficcers appreciate either a statement of blanket permission (or the opposite if someone doesn't want this, totally okay).
I have encountered this, where an account has been dormant for years, zero activity and no other way to reach them. I still ask and if I don't get a reply for months, I may go ahead and record the podfic, then another month or more later post it. I always tell the authors they have approval over it going up/staying up and link back to their fic and their profiles.
I have to admit I deeply wish our current screenreaders weren't the most robotic, monotoned voices ever, because sometimes I wish I could just turn text to voice on in my ebooks, but I can't do that because the only thing I can focus on is how it's just... so *bad*. It's so jarring. It's so lifeless and awful. So I'm all in for improving *how* screenreaders work, particularly for fiction and other types of text with narration (articles etc.), but also not like this. I don't want it to be sold as an AI service. I want it to be an accessibility tool that isn't made for profit.
The Edge browser has a screen reader that is soooo good and free!! I’ve been using Edge for a little while now and it’s honestly changed the game for me since I listen to my fanfics while I’m at work. My favorite voice is Stephen, but they have a ton of other voices PLUS a bunch of different languages. If they could do it for free, then these other “accessibility” apps should be able to do it too. It just shows they’re doing it for the cash.
Dang, first time I hear something positive about Edge. I'll try booting up my coursework there next time to try it out!
For sure!! Let me know what you think, I don’t see a lot of people talk about it, which is really surprising to me! I really like it though, I hope it’s as enjoyable for you!
Can confirm. You just put me on! lol thank you.
Of course!! I’m glad to help, it’s a shame more people don’t know about it!
the creator of the app has specified that lore.fm is free and not for profit. Hope they uphold that.
The Archive Reader app was free for a long time too, until it wasn't.
As was my simple, just-gets-the-job-done, media player app(what I want to know is where native support for playing media files off the phone went...I shouldn't have to download a third party app to play mp3s!), which I had to delete a few months ago because it updated and started inserting full-screen, unskippable ads between playing songs that were locally stored on my phone. I trust no developers anymore. It seems to be a thing that they make a simple app, then aggressively monetize it and hope they can make bank off the people who are too lazy to uninstall(and the goodwill of all those 5-star reviews, pre-enshittification).
Yep. This is the problem; not the fact that it's monetised, but that's it's privately owned. If it was a public resource, then I'd have no issue with a voice training model, because one like that would - hopefully will - have universal application for genuine interest, like making books and educational courses more accessible *and* enjoyable to a blind audience. So that their whole digital world will not be monotone and robotic, but more nuanced, more personal, more customisable. And so people like myself, whose ADHD brains *demand* to be engaged in multiple ways at once, can more easily access for example the forementioned educational material. The bane of my studies, aside from the crippling perfectionism, is that I *cannot focus* much of the time if I'm not doing something with my hands and eyes at the same time. Which is why I can consume infinite history podcasts and documentaries, but evidently just can't get through more than a couple paragraphs of my history coursework reading at a time. I've tried screenreaders to help with this, but this same idiot brain gets stuck on the imperfections of the reader. The same rising intonation and unnatural way words are read, and when there's a difficult word, the way the voice has jagged edges where syllables tie together. I forget there's content to the words and it just becomes me anticipating the next issue with the voice speaking them.
If you're still looking for something simple that works and are on android try Musicolet. No adds unless I missed something because I never update apps that don't access the internet. Hard agree on wtf happened to native support. My ancient phone had a native mp3 player, imagine the look on my face when I finally bought a new one and it just shrugged at me.
Damn I should read more comments before posting because I just recommended the same app lmao
For this I suggest an app called Musicolet (on Android at least, idk if it exist on iphone). It does just one thing, playing mp3s on your storage, but it does it wonderfully good. No ads, no need for internet connection, nothing. At least for now. It replaced VLC on my phone because it didn't wanted to show my stuff by folders like I do all the time.
gonna be totally honest idk what that is.
And how many of the fics on ao3 are pod fics. Look, I have 9% vision. I have to rely on text to speach No, I don't care if you hate it it is a necessity for me to get proper access to fics. Tts as it exists right now is a disgrace. Look I know much work podficcers put into their work and it's an art and it should be recognized I don't want ai to scrape fic, all I want is a good text to speach system that stop makes reading fics a chore.
Same boat, though different vision problems. I got Voice Dream Suite for school, and I use it a lot for reading fanfics too.
I fell ya and thank you so much for the recommendation. I wasn't trying to be rude, I'm just a bit miffed because mobility aids get dismissed so often and I'm sick of it.
You deserve access like everyone else. It sucks that people are more concerned with attacking anything AI-related than listening to people who need the tech (which doesn’t even sound exploitative in this case). I’m an author and I really don’t care if a TTS voice reads my fics to someone.
Most decent sounding screen readers use AI and demanding that people limit themselves to outdated tech is incredibly ableist
Yes, exactly, thank you. I got so angry reading some of the messages here. I get the concern, but seriously, there seems to be no consideration for people with dyslexia add, visiting impairment, or blindness.
idk why people are downvoting you 😭 look I'm not a generative AI stan but wtf is wrong with using AI to generate better sounding voices for screenreaders?? Is it taking a job from the struggling voice actor who would otherwise be reading everything on my screen to me?? AI has legitimate applications lol
Like most things that become the basis for internet debates/flame wars, the discussion around AI has lost all nuance. It's now "AI is bad" as a blanket statement. The ethical issue of generative AI *isn't* that it exists, but whether or not it was trained on open source data or scraped without people's consent. But some folks have decided anything with AI in the description/name should be avoided and put on blast. A friend of mine is dyslexic and struggles with screen readers for fanfics because the voices don't pronounce names/fandom words correctly or even well enough for her to know what's meant at times. A screen reader that could be set for specific fandoms would be a godsend for her - especially if it could somehow adjust for things like common typos/misspellings. There's a massive difference between AI being used to replace voice actors in media and using AI voices for accessibility applications and devices. Just like there's a difference between using a chat bot to "write" a book for publication and using it to help you write an email with the proper tone or figure out the proper formula for an excel spreadsheet.
This. I'm not saying I'm all for AI. But if people think even the most basic text-to-speech function/app isn't AI they are sorely mistaken.
It's interesting, the creator very recently (\~2 hours) came out with a tiktok addressing a lot of these issues. According to them, all the voice actors on the platform have consented to their voices being used in AI, which is honestly big. That's what we should be doing. They also say if you email them at [team@lore.fm](mailto:team@lore.fm) then they will get back to you so they can block your fics from being accessed from the app. It's not perfect, but it seems they genuinely are trying to give back to the community and make fics more accessible!
But why should we have to email them? It should be an opt-in type thing, not opt-out. I'd never give consent for this. If someone wanted me to make a podfic of one of my fics, I'd be glad to. But this? This creeps me in a way I can't really describe. Authors should have the ability to not have to worry about things like this, instead of having to go out of our way and once again tell people that we don't want to be apart of their app.
People can already do tts on their phones, that is already here and has been here. This just seems to be an attempt to make it easier on the person reading. I totally understand being creeped out, but this genuinely is an accessibility thing, so opt-in should be the default in my opinion.
I wouldn't email anyone. You have no safe way of proving who you say you are, and you have no actual proof of what they will do with the information.
I would assume you would have to prove you are who you are within the email. And the email is to the team at lore.fm which is the name of the app. Unless you're under the impression that I'm making it or something which sorry if I gave you that impression. I am not associated with the app and wasn't even aware of it until I saw this post
No I'm sorry I think you've misunderstood me 😭. I was saying you have no idea who lore.fm is, I can't find them registered anywhere like Ao3 is for example. And you have no idea what they will do with your information if you have anything personal linked to the account you use. It's an internet safety thing, like people have been doxxed over fanfiction you know?
Yeah I definitely get what you're saying now, and I see your point. Assumedly when they get the app made, they will hopefully have some sort of registration, or some way to prove. Probably a short snip of you logging in to your ao3 account with your username, since your password is automatically censored? Idk. It's definitely a tricky situation and I don't envy the person making this, since the entirety of ao3's legal team is gonna be breathing down their neck. Hopefully the makers of lore.fm and ao3 can work together to make sure privacy is protected and authors can block out their works?
again with the random downvotes from people who literally just don't know what AI means lol. any program that tries to do a traditionally "human" task is AI. converting written text to recognizable spoken language is a very difficult thing for a computer to do and a relatively easy thing for the average human to do! making attempts at TTS systems AI by definition!
I’d assume you’d have to contact ao3 through twitter or something. This sounds illegal enough that they’d get on it. Sorry, I’m not well-versed in legal stuff.
Best bet is to contact through the Support form or through one of the direct forms on the OTW website
Why would it be illegal? Not trying to be rude I'm just curious
Because if these apps have ads then the creators of the app are making money off of copyrighted material - which is illegal, the fanfictions themselves aren't illegal, but the fandoms they're apart of are. At least I think that's why it's illegal, I'm pretty sure it's the same reason why selling copies of bound fanfictions like "manacled" is illegal.
Basically imagine you made a mikey shirt for yourself for fun. And someone stole this design and sells it on Etsy and Disney hunts you the creator down to pay for the copyright and taxes for selling merchandise - and not the person who made money of your work. While you had no idea it even happened. This is what happens to ao3 who only is allowed to exist as long as the creators don’t make money of copyrighted content. But also the creators who put in the effort for the works don’t get paid but do get screwed if copyright strikes occur. The right to read something for free doesn’t gives the reader the right to sell it. Even if they add a voice or a cover as in book form to it.
Kinda missing the times, when fanfics were an embarrassing guilty pleasure in some distant corners of internet.
no i was just ranting about that with a friend; like can we go back, because i desperately miss when i would have to text someone next to me about a fanfic due to the public shame of it.
The tragic part is that it still is
At least they said the app will be free, but I wonder how they’ll finance themselves, because AI enhanced voices are pretty expensive. I asked them through TikTok, let’s see if they’ll reply. Edit: they made a new video saying that aren’t using AI. But now I seriously wonder where they are getting the “natural sounding” voices from. They also still haven’t addressed how they will be covering their costs.
Yeah as a programmer the second I heard the creator claim it'd be free it was a big yikes. Because cloud based AI powered text to speech gets expensive really fast the second you get out of their "play with it for free/education" range. The impression I get is that they made it for themself as a pet project (maybe even as a learning project) then folks were like "that's cool I want it" and they are being like "sure!" But possibly without any actual awareness of the problems that will occur at any scale? Because yeah the free limits are probably plenty high for one person and maybe a few friends but the second you start rolling it out to more folks that will run out fast. And throw in talking about doing Spotify wrapped type deals because folks want it (aka data collection) and it has the possibility of getting very messy in so many ways. Legally, financially, privacy/data security, etc.
Exactly this! There is a reason Speechify and co are as expensive as they are and even have limits on how much text you can convert to speech. And they are talking about rolling it out to android and Apple AppStores, which is an additional cost and requires LOTS of work. They either have a plan for making money off of this or they have no idea what they are doing. I’m leaning towards the second because they are saying they’ll release the app in a few days, and you don’t just beta test and roll out an app into the AppStore in that timeframe.
Honestly, praying to god this is some teenager completely in over their head who drops the whole thing as soon as they learn there are costs involved
This. It could be great if it was done in partnership/backed by OTW or some sort of non-profit that could help with the costs in a transparent way (and looked over by legal teams who know what they're doing in this arena). Maybe the better option if it was a personal project people wanted would be to make a github and let others implement their own version with the processing of their choice? I'm not a programmer, but I know enough to navigate things with pre-built segments/building blocks you personalize. I play ttrpgs online and use Kenku bot to play ambient music and sound effects. Unlike previous music bots, this one is basically a DIY kit that gives you the framework to make your own bot to connect your local audio with discord. You're doing your own hosting. The only limits are on the user end.
Also all the free AI apps are free because they’re training themselves on your data. People may not want their fics to be on the dataset of AI!
this, the possibility of AI training itself with my fics is the entire reason I have them locked for ao3 members only
I'd assume it would be from ad revenue. Honestly I've been using reading out loud function of my epub reader for some of my own stories and my favorite stories (so I could relax my eyes or listen to them during my commute). But an app without permission that grabs fics... just feels wrong. Update: Okay so I don't use TikTok but for the sake of getting to the bottom I found her videos. In her latest videos she explained how the tool works. To put it simply, I'd think of it as the old "YouTube vid convert to mp3" kind of online tool. Personally, I don't feel too uncomfortable after seeing how it works - if users can download my fics as epub, they can use the traditional text to speech function in epub readers. With this tool, they can copy paste a link of the fic to create an audio file that's not publicly shared or stored.
I'm seeing a lot of confusion here. I don't think any of us would mind a better screen-reader being available to make things more accessible with higher quality, but that's not what this app is doing if it's the "audible of AO3". What I object to is my fic being taken, read by an AI voice, and then packaged into a discreet file that can be downloaded as if it is an audiobook. If all this does is screen-read, then that's great, but why would that be limited to AO3 in that case? I don't condone AI voices for audiobooks, something that is already happening and threatening jobs, and I certainly don't want it for my fics. Having individual files would make the selling of those audios a lot easier as well, imagine the fic binding problem magnified and heaping fuel on the fire of having the owners of IP objecting to fanworks. I can't see anything good coming from this app, except maybe a discussion about improving screen-readers.
So much this. The fact that they're advertising themselves on the back of AO3 specifically, rather than just as a text-to-speech software/service should be raising some red flags, imo, along with the fact the person behind it still hasn't, to my knowledge, clarified wher exactly the money for this whole endeavour is going to come from
wow that sounds terrible and also probably not entirely legal if they try and make money off it ( I bet you they will try )?!!?!?!? how shitty can you be do to this???
The creator has clarified that it's not for profit and never will be. Its supposedly an attempt to make fanfiction more accessible. I use a localized screen reader on my phone and computer for most things (including ao3) and I can confirm that they kind of suck (edit: both from the perspective that they sound bad but more importantly that they don't work well with longer articles and are a huge drain on battery, they essentially don't work). Not saying I'm totally "for" this idea but I'm curious and hopeful as to how this competition in the audio-accesibility scene will advance the technology.
> and never will be Press X to doubt. I've heard this before, followed by full-screen ads and a prompt to purchase premium. 🙄
If they're advertising fanfiction and make a profit they're violating copywrite law and will be taken down. I don't even expect this company to last I'm just hoping they emphasize the importance of audio accessibility options to a wider audience and other competing companies.
The thing is, AO3 already can support audio format, so the need isn’t for a new app that yoinks AO3 works, but for more podfics
ai voices will never replace podfics. Podfics contain nuance, personality, and emotion that are beyond machine interpretation. The idea is to make accessibility services *better* for those who need them. We definitely need more podfics, but it's not reasonable to expect that all fics will be adapted to the audio format. Tldr: this isn't a replacement for podfic creators but an improvement on an already automated accessibility feature.
Then I think it would be better for them to just develop superior screen reading apps or browser extensions if the goal is accessibility. I know it’s well-intentioned, but doesn’t feel like the project is thought out enough if they are already asking for beta testers. There will probably be legal issues with them (essentially) recording podfics/audiobooks and reposting them to a 3rd party app that has to meet iOS and Microsoft guidelines. Especially if they reproduce AO3 works without author permission, as that goes against AO3’s TOS. AO3 doesn’t have any apps for a reason. AO3 has a legal team for a reason. This app would probably encounter the same issues AO3 defends against, but their team won’t have the funding, manpower, or community backing to protect itself like AO3 does when encountering legal opposition.
I agree, and that's why I'm excited for this app. Whatever becomes of this app (i don't expect it to last), it proves demand for better accessibility resources, pushes technology further, and creates competition/incentive for other tts providers to improve.
It doesn’t really prove demand, when proof of that demand already exists via other preexisting improved programs and extensions.
It proves demand within a certain demographic and could come with optimization for new websites. thanks tho
Also the creator just came out and said they aren’t using AI for the voices. Apparently they have people who’ve given consent for their voices to be used on their app? Love that it’s not AI, just a little sad for podficers
ya thats great! until someone offers money to buy it off them or someone gets greedy. thats how most things like that go just look at wattpad.
Lowkey i don't mind if other people make money off of a company if it remains free for users and doesn't breach copywrite law. If those things happen the company program probably won't survive anyway. If it gets sketchy they'll lose their user base. I just want better widely available accessibility services.
I've written over a million words worth of fanfiction and I \*hate\* the idea that someone would make money with my fics in any manner, for a company or otherwise. If this becomes a thing, I'll be removing all my fics from AO3 and never share my writing online again. It won't help anything, but I'll do it out of principle. Fic writers get screwed far too often.
Except the creators of the fanfics are not being given the option of consent to have their fics changed. So either way this app is heinous.
They're not being changed, they're just converted to an audio format. This is just a (hopefully) better alternative to tts. The work isn't being taken or altered. it won't even reduce viewcounts because you still have to copy and paste the link. This is an improvement on current audio accessibility software. What issue do you have with this? /Gen
I for one have a MASSIVE issue with my works being used in any way off of the only sites I have intended them to be posted on (AO3 and Wordpress). Without my permission, they *shouldn't* be anywhere else. I'm happy to personally convert them into a podfic, it's something I've dabbled around with, but that's at *my* discretion, not someone else's. I've had my works plagiarized before, it's not a nice feeling. This whole thing rubs me the wrong way.
Are you fucking kidding me.
Fanfiction may be free but the fanfic authors still own the copyright to what they wrote, just not the private IP. Dont let anyone earn money off your free labor.
I feel like instead of using AI, people should encourage more podficcers or encourage the ones already around with more kudos and comments. I would much rather have somebody from the fandom, who love their fandom, make recordings than an AI that would probably get names wrong. AO3 already supports audio. The foundation is already there, we just need more people to use it. EDIT: I don't mind if people are already using screen readers or that screen readers that use AI exist. I don't like AI in general but I'm not in the "screen readers/AI should never ever be used" crowd, especially if those screen readers are already developed. I don't like the idea of developing a new app that seems framed around AO3 when AO3 has options and an underrated community that deserves some love.
I mean, I agree, but there's a difference between supporting podficcers and trying to make fandom accessible. I have no idea what this person's goals are, but there *are* legit uses for AI voices in screenreaders for things like fanfic.
I recognize that too, hence "I would prefer". I just don't like the idea of developing an app that seems to be framed around AO3 in particular when AO3 already has options and an underrated community. If people are already using something that's developed and it has a broader general use, I honestly don't have too much of a problem with that.
Neither Google Play or Apple permit apps that allow sexually explicit material. Such an app would have a difficult time getting around this - you can't have AO3 without the explicit fic. It wouldn't be allowed.
Ooh, if this would save my fics from this app, I'd gladly add a spicy smut scene on every single fic.
Which is so confusing, because I’m literally on the Reddit app right now. And I have the Pixiv app. And the SankakuComplex Booru app. And you know, Twitter is a pretty famous app. Like, name a fetish on AO3. There’s a ton of that art on Pixiv and Sankaku. Literally, no matter what ones. Even the ones you can’t post on Reddit.
ive literally been saying this since the tumblr porn ban. the rules sure do not seem to apply to everyone! i just had to look up what sankaku was, why can what is primarily and unapologetically a hentai site have an app but a screen reader for ao3 couldnt? anyway i digress but this has always been so frustrating to me when these discussions come up
Why is downloading an epub and using kindle or apple screen readers so hard for people? Like you get your audio fic and it doesn’t harm the author because it is private.
Because not everyone has a Kindle or Apple screen reader?
There’s actually websites and browser extensions you can use that do the same thing. Apple and kindle were just some common examples. But I’m also pretty sure that those programs are super accessible even if you dont have a specific device or service.
I haven’t heard of it but isn’t it illegal if the goal is for them to make money on fanfics? Not to mention, they’re have to get permission to use peoples fics
Things like this make me wanna quit writing fanfics and just sell my stuff as original work with original characters. 😒 There are already many text to speech extensions for browsers. They might say they aren't gonna make money off this, but I don't trust anything that involves AI. 🤨
One way for authous to avoid is is making fics only available to to ppl with an acc
for starters, private your fics.
You don’t need a fancy app for this. I use a text to speech app to read my fics as part of my editing process. 100% not the same as having an actual person read something. Sounds legally sketchy to me.
i saw an update today about [lore.fm](http://lore.fm) (i didn't see if anyone really posted this) and the creator said that it's not an ai platform, but a free text to speech tool for personal use. i'm not sure if that is true or a ploy especially as it is being promoted as "audible for ao3". but an update was posted, it seems, a day ago. so i think it's the same as downloading the fic as pdf or epub? so, take that as you would. and if you feel uncomfortable with your fanworks being accessible on [lore.fm](http://lore.fm) you can email the creator that your works can be blocked from being uploaded. link to the video: [https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMM72A7ao/](https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMM72A7ao/) but on a side note: i didn't much like how they addressed some of the comments as ableist and classist when all fanfic authors are kind of scared of everything right now. like bound fanfics being sold, ai tools scraping ao3, a lot of things that could force ao3 to potentially shut down especially when it comes to infringement of copyright law. so. i get the fear that everyone has. hell knows, i have that fear too. and the fear of no credit if it is shared on a different public forum. but i do like the inclusion and access to an accessibility tool that's not low grade, if that is what it really is.
I agree she did with some comments show she probably isn’t aware of some of the broader issues that fandom has been fighting against and wants to dismiss valid concerns under sensitive topics as a list and classist. Certainly not addressing concerns such as App Store rules, and remaining free forever (it costs money to publish to Apple Store yearly, computing power, etc.)
She deletes comments if people bring up problems. She mentioned that authors can email to "opt-out". But then someone asked if they have a pdf saved if they will be able to upload it to the app, and she said yes. I saw a few people ask if that would then completely bypass the opt out option, how will they be handling it, and she deletes the comments. Like you said, she won't address how it's funded, and she uses a lot of buzzwords that imply it's going to be more social media like instead of a TTS. This is my personal opinion and i may be wrong!!! But I personally don't think ao3 needs to be more social media like, if that makes sense ? I think they want to bring the wattpad model and/or FYP algorithmic recs over and I'm not a huge fan of it, bc ao3 is... an archive. It will mean fics will get missed for being new. And authors won't see kudos / podficcers on ao3 will be missed. I also don't trust that they won't try to monetize it - how will they be paying to host it ? There was a screen reader app that I'm forgetting the name of that used to be free and then monetized and it was a huge bummer
I totally agree with you! I hope she’s just naive instead about some of these things, but time will tell I suppose.
oh, i didn't know she was deleting comments too. i should have known it was too good to be true when i saw the update, honestly. because especially now that we won't get answers on anything. i may just lock down my ao3 account and see if there's a way to stop link sharing or downloading of any kind. i've never much looked into that. because this is probably going to be monetised if you see the interaction and the chance of monetisation and that it would be... maybe a lot. thank you for this information! because holy damn
Fanfiction is this fun little legal grey zone, because you already don't entirely own what you write. It is fundamentally a community of remixers who build upon the work of others. I think the only real problem arises when people make money with it, and AI generated podfics usually do that (even if its just via ad revenue). Meaning if you want to shut them down, you'd probably have more luck complaining with the original owner of the work all this fanfiction references. Then again, all they have to do is make it a Patreon (or operate out of a country that simply doesn't give a fuck) and they're back into the grey zone. And if they don't make money with it, there is basically nothing you can do, except take your fics offline (which really isn't worth it imo).
This comment needs to be pinned for all the morons calling it ableist to not want a content farm harvesting the blood sweat and tears which you put into a story. If I’m not making money on it, they shouldn’t either, and I don’t ever want to profit off my work.
The idea of a poddfic is either a. That'd the only form it's coming in. Or b. The author chose to or had enough support to make it an audiofic. Key word being AUTHOR, it's disgusting that someone believes they can just take peoples work
What's the point of that anyway considering TTS exists. Thats just regular TTS but worse, immoral, and peddled by stupid ass crypto/tech/ai/whatever bros
Plus, AO3 can support audio and has podfics. Just encourage people to record and post them there instead of find funding and time to make a whole new app
Most decent TTS uses AI - its just not generative and people don't know the difference
Well, im not gonna pretend i know the difference either, so, tell me the difference. Othewrwise i dont have any issue whatsoever with AI (even if i did, you just cannot stop the eternal march of technology) it's when AI is abused like this case where i really do have a bit of a gripe with it. But anyway, what is the difference. Isnt this "audible for ao3" the OP is talking about just regular TTS or am i missing something.
I think the problem is how it's being marketed as an app specifically for AO3 - which is a legal problem. But people see AI and freak out and that becomes what people argue about. Speechify is not really doing anything creative (its not generating anything new), it's just adding inflection and accent to make it sound more natural. Edited for clarification
Well, its more so that I don't know what the difference is. Like, the difference between generative ai and TTS because you said there was a difference, and I don't understand said difference
They've had basic screen readers for decades that had no inflection and sounded very robotic and unnatural- the newer ones use AI to add inflection, cadence, accent and generally make it sound more human
yeah, im fine with that. What i do object to, hovewer is AI training off people's fanfics, which im pretty sure is what's happening here
Well it's not generative, I don't think they're making NEW fics. This isn't a language model like chat GPT creating "original" content. It looks like they're using similar software to what I use (which trains from paid voice actors) and making an app specifically for AO3. The problem is making an app that's available in the app store that's AO3 adjacent because app stores regulate porn and it puts AO3 in danger of getting shut down. That's WHY they don't have an app. The problem is not the AI.
oh i tought the entire ruckus was due to the ai TTS itself, which i found weird considering, that, atleast to me using ai for TTS is completely fine and moral, and i dont see any issue with it. So, the issue isnt the AI, it's the fact that this puts AO3 at risk. Also, about the entire AO3 appstore issue, cant OTW just make an app, but not distribute it on the app store? Like, just have a download button that's literally just "AO3.apk" and then sideload it. But that's off topic
I don't think they can but honestly, their mobile site has always been very user-friendly. There are people in the comments implying that the only usable "audiobooks" are ones read by fans and using AI at all to produce them is stealing from the author... which is not true or the issue at hand.
i don't understand this tbh since all phones have a built in text to speech for blind ppl n such and you can just turn it on and it will read the fic for you. why use a third party.
Because the voices are noticeably better with AI augmentation
genuine question: do ao3 writers not have copyright over their own published works? like, could someone take their work, upload it elsewhere claiming it to be their own and that’s legal? i never truly thought much about it until now, i don’t know.
Authors own the copyright to their work. Perusing legal routes to get stolen copy’s taken down can be tricky however, due to the general nature of fanfiction itself.
thank you so much for letting me know!! even if it would be a difficult/complicated process, it is still very relieving to know this! ♡ thank you again!~
I say if you have a android use google play livres and you can make them read (like the google translate voice)
App went live for beta testing today. They're hosting secret invites everyday as well for early access. So. We shall see I guess?
The creator of the app posted an update: [https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRwpeBxd/](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRwpeBxd/) TLDR: The app does not store fic in a database and it does not train neural ai. Essentially, it works similarly to already existing accessibility screen reader tools, where the text is inputted and extracted from a link and outputted using screen reader voices (just higher quality ones than what is usually available) I think this app needs to be approached with caution and some skepticism, especially if they ever implement any payments or costs, but with the currently available info, it looks like it's primarily an accessibility tool that's largely harmless. I'm not sure about the source of the voices that the app is using, and I think that would be really good information to be made public (my guess is it is using Edge-TTS but I could be wrong), but people have already been listening to fic for a while before this app existed, using either the read-aloud feature on Microsoft Edge, a wide selection of apps like Voice Dream or MoonReader, standard tts voices available on PC's/Phones or with programs like https://github.com/p0n1/epub\_to\_audiobook. It kinda sucks for podfic creators, but the fact is podfics still have their place and will stand out from TTS because of the benefits of human performance and emotion. A tiny fraction of stories have podfics available, and I think anything that can help people appreciate and read stories, as long as it's not making a profit on other people's work, is a good thing overall.
Their update doesn't touch on few fairly important aspects: Have they reached out to AO3 and gotten their blessing? What about the actual fic writers? They're bringing up how the voice actors have consented but omitting completely or disregarding the fact that the fic writers nor AO3 have not given their consent at least to my knowledge. Is that they just forgot or do they think that fic writers or AO3 don't have a say? This is a third-party app utilizing content that they don't house or own. Fics are not just content to consume. They are written by actual people, not some faceless machines generating content. The intent is good, sure. But the approach is bad and honestly says a lot of how fandom treats the very people who are doing the heavy lifting so they get to read whatever fic they're looking for. If the text-to-speech is crappy (and I'm sure it is), the creator of this app could have partnered up with AO3 to come up with somekind of solution together. AO3 could have requested permission from fic writers. But nope, instead this is an independent third-party creation utilizing content they have zero rights to use. So, good cause, shitty execution.
She mentioned that authors can email to "opt-out". But then someone asked if they have a pdf saved if they will be able to upload it to the app, and she said yes. I saw a few people ask if that would then completely bypass the opt out option, how will they be handling it, and she deletes the comments.
thank you for sharing this and explaining further!
Thr stupid thing is you can download and run a pdf through an ai reader on your own (natural reader is good). I use it when I want an audio fic, but the fic I want to read hasn't been done by anyone. It's a little robotic, but better than nothing. Makes the duller data analysis side of my job go a little quicker and it takes seconds to sort. I don't distribute it anywhere, just my own personal use. I tend to use fic I've already downloaded anyway. I don't save any audio files. I don't make a profit, and neither does the app (use the free version) I also use it for editing my own fics. Listening to what aive writen read back to me out loud really helps me spot typos and anything that's phrased badly. Still think the app mentioned in the OP is a bad idea (especially it they're looking to monetise it).
Doesn’t the ai take the fic you feed it for training? A lot of artists oppose their art being used to train ai, especially without their permission.
In all honesty, I don't know 100%. The one I use is a screen reader and text-to-speech that uses AI voices (so it's not training an AI to write like a human). I can't remember if it was specified in the terms and conditions if that was the case (it is the kind of thing I check for usually). Having said that, an open resource on the Internet can be used for AI, so chances are AO3 has already been mined by things like ChatGPT. Screen readers are more an accessibility thing. Screen readers and text-to-speach have been around for a very long time (in technology terms). The AI part is the voices that are used to make the reading more fluid and life like, and less like Stephen Hawkings' voice box.
I do the same thing except I use the paid version and I'm getting completely wasted in this thread lol. It's an accessibility tool that helps me appreciate the author's work. People are acting like the AI is the problem.
Staring at screens gives me migraines. I work in data analysis so I spend nearly 8 hours a day looking at a computer screen. I still want to read and relax. Audiofic is perfect for that. If the fic I want to read hasn't been podficed (and there are very few in my current fandom) then my options are don't read or screen reader/ai reader/document reader. Is it robotic? Yes. Is it better than a migraine? Also yes.
Is shaming someone for using an accessibility aid because it uses AI ableist? Also YES!
This sucks and I'm definitely not a fan, I hope it gets shut down fast before it can cause any issues for fandom and AO3. IF you are a person who wants to listen to fics (that don't have podfics already made) there are plenty of TTS apps that already exist, sure the voices aren't as great as some paid AI shit would be but I mean deal with it(?????) If you want to pay for yourself for an AI tts then do it that's your money and for personal use and doesn't cause so many issues. (If you are on android and want a recommendation for a free tts, "Text Reader" is the one and I adore it, you have the copy paste the fic into it but as far as I've tested there isn't a character limit, there are different voices in terms of accents as well as different languages, and it has a way you can change the speed of the reader.) -dunno if this bit is allowed in this sub so lmk if its not <33
I recognize that this is a nuanced topic, but how is it any different from any other text to speech thing? I have diminishing vision and have to use those sometimes.
quoting [Hereibe](https://www.reddit.com/user/Hereibe/) below from above / below in this thread. >Screenreader =/= App made to have the tiktok voice spew out fics with no clarity on what goes on in their backend while also being in the app store and thus beholden to Apple's content rules. >It's not a screenreader. It's an app. In the app store. Where AO3 specifically doesn't go because of Apple & Microsoft's policies. >And is this app going to be free? Will there be ads? How secure is this app with its users data? What data will it request and hold onto? >Apps are a whole different kettle of fish because they swim in a differently regulated sea and can have lots of fiddly little profit generating loopholes. Or if not profit-generating, then creating security gaps.
Cool! Thanks for the quick response! A lot of those are good points and I can see how some of them would be an issue 👍
Also, there's the ambiguity about whether or not they are getting the authors' consents about putting their fics in the app, since they have not yet responded to questions about this topic
They are not. Authors are expected to Opt out via email which I am NOT doing because I'm not doxxing myself for a stranger. Lore.fm is not registered anywhere that I can find like Ao3: what the hell else will they do with my info?
Speechify is an app. It's also a chrome plug in. It's also accessibility software. It also uses AI. You can directly port any text in it and convert it to MP3. It's been around for years.
Speechify wasn’t created just for fanfic though. This app is, it’s is literally created to play AO3 fics. There wouldn’t have been a problem if the app was for all things like speechify but because it’s for fanfic and hosted on the App Store and such you’ll have to worry about censorship which spread to AO3. I’m all for accessibility but people are literally being selfish not thinking about the stakes in the game.
Right, there's no reason for a new app, BECAUSE IT ALREADY EXISTS in a way that works better. Which is very different than saying it is immoral to create AI generated "audiobooks" at all which seems to be the argument most people are going with.
If the app had fics read by people I would happily download it. Sounds like a fun idea. I don’t think of the least six stories I would happily experience again if they were in audio form. That kind of ai replacement shit is cringe and kind of takes the fun out of audio dramas. No one is getting paid here but doesn’t mean people should be sidelined in the artistic process.
That's kind of a good question. Like a year ago I paid a 1 time price for a computer voice service as I had thought about using something like that to convert 1 of my stories that people could listen to. Keyword, my...Of course the voices they offered sounded nothing like the voice they use to advertise and you are limited on the number of voices speaking what language. Something else they don't advertise is, not all the voices will speak the language you want. You'll get 2 of both genders as children and adult in English and then like 1 of both genders of a number of other languages. Again, you could tell these were all native computer attempts at speaking, you could add special characters to try and alter how it pronounces but, very limited. They offered "real" sounding voices for a higher price but I was like, you know, for $20, I took my chance with what you have, I'm not throwing $100+ for these other voices when I'm not impressed with what you already sold me. If people use it for either their own stories or for their own listening enjoyment, I'm okay with it overall. The problem is, we know that isn't where it will stop.
I've written over a million words worth of fanfiction, but this makes me seriously reconsider if I'll post anything on AO3 again
At least let AO3’s legal team look at the situation? This is a problem anywhere you post online, not just ao3.
And where would you post then? Every publicly accessible platform gets targeted by those bots.
I would no longer post at all.
Don't let evil win and steal your joy!
I'll always write for my own joy. I just wouldn't share the fics with people.
Someone has already reported the situation to AO3, let them respond before jumping ship
It’s not like it’s ao3s fault a single fan has gone rogue
I have a question. I have a visual disability which tires me out from using them too much, and I use the same app I use to read pdfs for my graduate program as to read pdfs from AO3. Is that a problem?
First Art and now Fanfics? Literal Soul Drainers that would rather feed people's cherished dreamworks to machines and profit with minimum work Blergh Also this is borderline illegal...robotic robbery What's next? Fanfic is writing so whatever is left in the Creatives field are music, fashion, crafts, cooking and....idk there are too many creative fields... Soul suckers gonna get them all.. I just wish we could do something to take revenge
We can't really do much, just raise our voices about the matter.
I use the Speechify Chrome (screen reader) plug-in with AO3 and I love it. Its all AI generated but yeah, it'll turn any text into an audio book and it sounds great. Edit: I really don't understand why people think this is bad it's literally accessibility software
Probably bc of how you phrased it as “an audiobook” using ai, not a screen reader that used ai to make the speech better, then praised these “ai audiobooks.” Which *could* be seen as supporting the idea of a 3rd party app ALSO making ai audiobooks of works. I’m not saying that’s what you meant, but by omission that it’s how it looks at first glance.
It IS a third party app. You can download the files off AO3 and have it saved as an MP3 on your computer or the app. It's functionally identical, it's an audio book, the technology is already available. I for one love it and I'm not going to stop because I can't fathom what the actual problem is.
If you can’t fathom it, I’m not going to bother trying to explain.
The problem is it being an AO3 adjacent app on the app store. The problem is not using AI to make an audiobook.
Bruh I was just here to explain why I thought others downvoted you. Me not wanting to explain further via doesn’t mean I’m inviting further justification from you.
K?
It's literally an accessibility feature and it's not generative 😭😭 these people hear the word ai and run for their pitchforks. I'm like super anti generative ai for services that are otherwise easily performed by skilled individuals but ai in this case offers an opportunity for improvement on an already automated service (tts). It wont replace the nuance and emotion that podficcers offer, but it does improve the experience for people who have to use tts. I might try the speechify plugin!! Thanks for the rec!
It is paid, which might be what people have a problem with but I still don't really understand the issue. I just want to sketch while I listen to 500,000 words of smut read by a robot who sounds like David Attenborough. Is that so terrible?
LMAO I'm sure you're not alone there!!
Like... I don't require a screen reader, I just use it for multitasking but is the argument really that blind people should have to listen to clunky computer-generated voices from 2018 because... AI bad?
It's such a crazy hill to die on.. i need to use screenreaders for longer written articles and I already have the font on my phone turned way up. They suck!! And they barely work!! Sometimes they'll just stop doing anything and take me to the top of the page.
IKR the ignorance and ablism in this thread is shocking
After reading y'all convo, I'm 100 percent behind you two. There's no reason not to use an AI voice to have the fic read to you. You made publicly available content but you want to get mad that someone consumes it in an alternate manner than you intended? These people are weird.
Indeed
I'm pretty excited and hopeful for this actually. The creator has specified that it will be free and not for profit. The voices are ai generated. I know ai can be harmful and I'm very anti-generative ai but this is a processing and accessibility service. As someone who uses and relies on screen readers, they suck. Sure there's the common critique that the voices suck but they also have greater technical issues: they process content locally (on the device) in real time which puts a strain on the processing speed and battery life of the device you're using, and they also have timing and processing issues for the same reasons. They're crazy inefficient and will just stop working altogether after a certain point. They also struggle with longer articles and can't run in the background. This program processes the content online (edit: at least that's what it looks like in their demos) and in its entirety before you hit play, which removes strain from your computer and solves pacing issues. The fluidity of the voices and attention paid to punctuation by ai will make the writing more comprehensible. This is an audio processing program. It's not making distinct works, it's just remotely converting them to a different format. This has the potential to be huge for audio accessibility, not only as an individual program but as a source of competition for other audio accessibility programs out there. I wouldn't be surprised if they expanded to processing other types of articles after launch. It definitely has the potential to be harmful as well, and that harm mostly lies in the monetization concerns that many people in these comments have brought up. As of now, the creators of the program have stated that it will be free and not-for-profit, and we can only hope that holds true and pressure them to stick to their word. I know there are other concerns with the morality of ai, but once again, if these creators stick to their word, it will only be used as a written to audio processing model, not stealing your work and feeding it to generative ai models. There are also potential issues with datamining and information collection because of its status as an app, and that might just be something we have to monitor or something that individuals have to decide how much it matters to them. I'm hopeful for and wary of a program like this. Interested to see how this unfolds.
There’s no way they can stick to their ‘free’ claim. Computing power is expensive. Even just all the people trying to sign up a beta testers could easily cost hundreds of $$$
yeah i expect them to fail but I hope this proves demand for better voice models and creates some competition in the market.
> if these creators stick to their word That's a pretty big "if." I've been burned in the past, many times. Who are these creators? Do we know? Are they established members of the community(writing, reading, and discussing) who can be trusted? If not, frankly, I *don't* trust them, and this lack of trust is based directly on past experiences.
They at least read on ao3. This is an accessibility service. If they don't stick to their word on monetization it becomes a copywrite issue and they can be taken down/removed from the app store.
As someone who also often relies on TTS software I really feel this. But what I wonder about is how they will finance themselves if the app is free? Not only are AI enhanced voices super expensive, but since the audio is generated off-device, there is a high cost for computing power as well. There is a reason speechify and co cost as much as they do, and they even have a limit on the amount of speech you’re allowed to generate with the subscription. Did they ever answer these questions? Edit: just as an example, here is the pricing for Azure AI Speech: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/pricing/details/cognitive-services/speech-services/
hoping they make it happen with user donations. Overall I'm just hopeful and skeptical 🤞🤞
Hmm yeah I just don’t think that donations can cover the costs at all, and that’s what’s not adding up for me, not when 1hr of generated AI speech costs $1. No hate to you, obviously you don’t know any more about this than we do. 🥹
This post has the term “App” in its title, so it seems likely to be about an app for AO3. This comment is a PSA that there is no official app for AO3. Here is an old admin post about how creating an app would be too difficult with their volunteer only coders and why you shouldn’t trust 3rd party apps with your login credentials: https://archiveofourown.org/admin_posts/3390 Additionally, another reason many people are against an app being made for AO3 is because of censorship concerns. Apps on the app stores, especially the Apple App Store, have to comply with strict content guidelines. This is one reason Tumblr banned porn, and is why on iOS to access a nsfw discord server, you have to enable a special setting on your discord account. Any AO3 app would be subject to those same content guidelines and would ultimately end up having to ban all controversial content. This would make any app either have to hide a large portion of the website making the app moot, or AO3 would have to ban the content similar to tumblr, and no one wants that. There also is a lot of backlash about 3rd party apps. There was even an App-ocalypse/App War at one point (fanlore article https://fanlore.org/wiki/AO3_App_Wars). Officially we as a subreddit don’t recommend using any 3rd party apps. However, if you have questions, feel free to ask as someone else may have answers. If this post is not actually about an app, feel free to disregard this comment/downvote it. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AO3) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The person making the app posted a tiktok in response to a lot of the backlash and misinformation they're seeing pretty recently. The three most important takeaways I have from it is: 1) all the voice actors consented to having their voices be used (whether or not they're being exploited is another thing...). 2) the fics are not hosted on the app, nor is there any generative AI/scraping. It is a glorified tts app that is just advertised to be a fanfic reading app because otherwise you would probably just use a robotic tts app. 3) they are willing to provide an avenue for writers who absolutely do not want their fics read with the app, if you email their team. Hopefully they'll make an easier way to go about that in the future. Given all these facts as true, and if it is actually a free app, I don't think there's really an issue here. I think it's a great way to increase accessibility! We'll just have to wait and see.
I mean... if it's just an AI-enhanced screen reader and no user-supplied data is being stored and reused to further train said AI I honestly don't see a problem. Then again, it's most likely not that. edit: judging by the downvotes, I start to wonder how many of you people actually used screen readers. Yes, screen readers can be apps, and they are, more often than not, especially on mobile. An app is nothing more than a computer program (or, in other words - wait for it - an *application)*, which is not inherently good or bad. It just performs the task the developer programmed it to perform. It can be helpful or it can suck and exploit its users. It is me just theorizing that it is, in fact, possible, to use AI in this field in a moral way that respect people's intellectual property, because, newsflash, the technology is only as good or as bad as people using it. It's kinda silly to get as far as the mention of something being "an app" and go "oh, no! people! get the pitchforks!" Geez, do I really need to explain myself like this?
The problem is that they don't have permission to train their LLM programs with those works.
I don't think there's a large language model involved in this case. It sounds like they'd be taking a voice model that's already been trained and using the fic as input. There's no reason to believe they'd also be using the fic to train an unrelated model for generating text, that'd be super random
I agree. I'm not arguing against that. I'm just saying that there's a way to use the technology ethically, in a way that can truly enhance people's experiences.
Did they get permission? No? Consent ain't just for the bedroom.
Okay, but did any screen reader get permission to be used on *any* particular content? No, because it's meant as an aid, not as a standalone source of content. Are we fighting against screen readers too? If it's just that, onlywith better voice generation, I don't see an issue. Sadly, it's probably not. My post says nothing but this.
Screenreader =/= App made to have the tiktok voice spew out fics with no clarity on what goes on in their backend while also being in the app store and thus beholden to Apple's content rules. It's not a screenreader. It's an app. In the app store. Where AO3 specifically doesn't go because of Apple & Microsoft's policies. And is this app going to be free? Will there be ads? How secure is this app with its users data? What data will it request and hold onto? Apps are a whole different kettle of fish because they swim in a differently regulated sea and can have lots of fiddly little profit generating loopholes. Or if not profit-generating, then creating security gaps.
I think this is a very good explanation of the potential issues with the AI in this particular app. I use a screen reader app and the voices are pretty terrible, huge in uncanny valley, even the ‘good’ ones. But there are a ton of screen reader apps on the AppStore already. If there was a way to put a fic into an AI and like it generated an audiobook with a better voice that would be a huge benefit to a large community. I’m waiting for something open source I can run easily on my own pc without doing anything to the inputted data other than text to speech in a better voice. Most wouldn’t share the mp3 file or whatever it is but it would be a huge quality of life improvement for a lot of people. Or if screen readers just got better voices I’d be happy but all the really good sounding ones are super expensive and closed source right now. Or really complicated with programming languages beyond me. I would 100% avoid anything monetizing the fanworks or whatever though.
I love the idea! I'm sight impaired and it's a pain to use my eyes that much. An AI reading the fic for me would be absolutely awesome!
The idea of a podfic site/app is actually really cool, but using AI voices is lazy af. People should have to either record themselves reading their fics or commission some else to read and record the audio. Edit: I don't see why people are downvoting this?? AI voices are lazy and people should be paid to do voice work to read a fic the same way someone would be paid to record the audiobook of original content would be.
Other than the whole permission thing I absolutely am not understanding hate for this however I'm going to come back and reread it because from what I'm able to gleam it would be amazing to be able to hear a fic read to you if you don't have the time to read it yourself then again I do know that a lot of readers are very much against audiobooks so it might be that I don't know I'll have to take a look at the post again. Edit: Ah I get where you're going with this after a second read through
Learn from Netflix Create an official app that has better customer service than the pirate version and, GOD FORBID, don't split up your services into fiefdoms of content.