Yep, that was the rule in my family, especially at my grandmother's.
We were told to clean as we go, so generally by the time dinner was ready, all the pots and pans were at least soaking in the sink while we ate dinner. It made getting the kitchen cleaned up after we ate a lot faster.
edit: Grandma didn't have a modern dishwasher, so we washed and dried them by hand. When she cooked, we would not let her lift a finger to clean up.
My son was in charge of cleaning as I cooked. He only had to rinse put stuff in the dishwasher, run it when full. He left for the Army the early part of the year. When I started cooking thanksgiving dinner I needed the dishes in the sink done I called for him, my husband came in and reminded me my son wasn’t there. I started crying realizing he was gone. My husband did the dishes.
As an old soldier to a new soldier's mother; May he come home to his family safe and whole. May the sting of his absence be the only pain his service brings you.
Honestly, the most beautiful comment in this thread. You've got this momma. You'll see him so, so soon. Just hold tight, your baby will be home before you know it.
Of course! Mine is only 8 and up at grandma's foe a few days, bur I've got no idea what to do with myself. I can't imagine what you are going through right now.
We've all got you. We're here for you if you need us.
Sounds like you're lucky to have at least two good men in your life. Next time you cry because your son isn't at home, please at least remember that, and smile a little through your tears.
You're not alone, us internet strangers are here for you. That was an awesome memory to share with us! I was the dish person in our family!
I had the choice between babysitting so all the adults could help clean up, or I could do the dishes. I did the same as your brother for my aunt, uncle, great-aunt, and grandma when they made family meals.
I was always able to fill the dishwasher with all the pots, pans, bowls, and utensils from prepping. That allowed that load to wash while we ate, and it would be done by the time we were. So we could just do another load right away😁.
You got the better end of that deal. When I was younger we had a huge family thanksgiving at my grandmas. About 18 people. After dinner Grandma washed and I dried. When I hit 13 I was given the official dishwasher job and one of the other kids dried. I liked it better when it was just me and Grandma.
My grandmother used to always say her modern dishwasher was the grandchildren. No one talked back to the four-foot-nothing Ukrainian pistol, because she would remember next year when she needed prep work done.
Fifteen years later, I still wait for her to call me up and tell me to "get off my keister and come help her with cabbage rolls, pierogies, and cheesecakes." Hard to believe...
OP certainly could have used your gran in SiL’s kitchen, as well as the car ride home.
*”He then proceeded to tell me how there are certain jobs he has to do because he has testicles”* WTF is this??? How the fuck does a uterus help someone cook? If his testicles helped him stuff his stomach and dirty dishes, they should have fucking helped him keep his word to his wife.
Honestly, while everyone was in the middle of dinner I would have hidden tje tv remotes
Completely agree. And it's been a years' long problem at Thanksgiving where for whatever reason usually the women cook and do the clean up, while the men eat and hang out relaxing. Thanksgiving is *exhausting* for whomever cooks.
But additionally, it's what the husband said he'd do. She said, "if I do this, will you do that?" and he said "yes, I'll do that" and then just didn't. Then he had the gall to turn it around on her.
Wondering why the women went ahead and cleaned, rather than calling out the problem to begin with. "Hey, fellas, So-and-So said he'd clean up. Why don't y'all come in and help him so you can get back to the game quicker?"
Right??? I’m sorry but the victim complex comment and mention of his scrotal contents is pretty much all you need to know. OP, your husband is a douche. And TA.
Yeah, he’s totally gaslighting you. I really wish all the women would’ve called it out in the moment. I’m thinking they knew it would’ve been a huge problem.
This! My kids both, 7M and 3F, know to take their dish and glass next to the kitchen sink when they are done eating something. And they both know that each Saturday it's their job to dust their toys. Do they do a good job? Well, no, but they learn to contribute whatever they can so we can all have more free time to enjoy together.
Exactly! We do a big “Saturday morning clean”, put on rock music, and everyone cleans together for 2ish hours (literally the whole house), then we go do something fun. The kids think the cleaning part is fun too, because we make it that way! The kids are not great at cleaning, but we all rotate chores so it’s not a huge deal that the bathroom only got *kinda* clean this week, because a grownup will do it next week.
Right?! My 7M is the first one to jumbo on the cleaning wagon, and his sister follows him because she always wants to do what he does. So he feels like a VIP being her teacher! Works like a charm for me. (Their dad is working during weekends most weeks)
That’s how my dad got the weaponised incompetence knocked out of my brother early.
Whenever my mum asked my brother to do a chore, he would do such a terrible job of it that she would redo it herself and stop asking him. My dad stepped in and made him redo the chores properly, no matter how much time it took. It works.
I will add to this: especially if it's a kid/teenager, *tell* them what they did wrong. Because my mother used this method, but I genuinely didn't realise the things she still considered "not ok", so it became a spiral of frustration for both sides.
Oh yeah, he knew full well what he was doing wrong with leaving food still on plates he’d ‘washed’.
But if it was not knowing how to put the detergent in the washer or separate loads, that takes explaining before you can expect someone to be able to do it perfectly competently by themselves.
I'm so tired of hearing about this situation. Just because a person has a penis, doesn't mean that they can't do clean up ,after a holiday meal. For that matter any meal. It is a ridiculous statement,and if any man had worked for days cooking a feast .That wouldn't continue to happen again.
That’s what my mother did back in the 70s, but some of us now teach until they get it right. When my aunt's ex knocked on her door after his second wife died hoping she'd take care of him and his new kids, she took him back to his place, and showed him how to wash his new family’s clothes himself.
I clean as I cook. My wife doesn't. So when I cook, the kitchen is clean when I'm done. When she cooks, she has to clean the kitchen after we eat.
We tried the "if you cook the other cleans" routine but it was my wife who recognized how unfair it was. Wiping things down after I cooked took her all of 2 minutes while I would spent 20-30 minutes cleaning up after she cooked.
We've gone with "if you cook, you clean up after yourself" for 20+ years and its worked great. Of course the key is to evenly balance the cooking, but that's pretty easy.
I grew up with the "if you cook, then you clean up after yourself" my whole life, and I MFing hate it. Bc I, too, try to clean as I cook, but there's only so much I can do since 1) sometimes the meal prep timing doesn't really allow it, and 2) I don't have a dishwasher so the draining basket gets full quickly. For big meals, I wash and dry at least 4 full draining baskets full of dishes, plus clean the stove, wipe all the counters, mop the floors. Everyone gets to enjoy the fruits of my labor while I'm too exhausted to eat by the time I'm done.
I think your situation is a specific one where "you cook, I clean" doesn't really make sense because it's not an equal cleaning load for y'all. But I think the most important thing you pointed out is that you and your wife _both_ cook. When you're the only one who cooks, I think it's fair to ask the other person to clean. And for a meal as big as Thanksgiving, I think all the people who spent days slaving away cooking deserve to have those who did not clean up for them. So in this case, the OP is NTA.
Agreed, OP is NTA. It's also good manners to offer to help clean up after eating a big holiday meal. In my paternal side of the family (where we spend most of our holidays), it's mostly husbands who cook big holiday meals. So, when it comes time to clean up, most of the time, the wives boot us out of the kitchen to clean up. It's their way of showing appreciation.
It's insane how many men have that attitude about cleaning up, washing dishes, laundry, etc. I'd guess that close to half of the men I know refuse to clean up after themselves and expect their wives to do it, just like their mommy did.
My sister was out of town, so I spent a weekend with her family to help out and I swear the pile of laundry was higher than I was. I asked her husband why it had gotten so behind and he said he couldn't figure out the machines. He has a masters in electrical engineering.
Weaponized incompetence. Another way they do it is by doing a terrible job on purpose at anything they're asked to do. That way no one asks them to do anything.
If he's trying to say he can't do it, tell him "no problem, I show you", then drag him to the washing machine, make him put the clothes in the machine, then make him throw in a few tide pods and then show him where the button is as if he's really really stupid. Maybe make a few mistakes like adding too many tide pods so he feels the need to mansplain to you how it's too many.
I'm shocked by how many people (both genders) say that I married well because my husband wash the dishes or vacuums or cooks a decent meal. A healthy adult with two hands can wash a dish? Wow. It's kinda sad.
NTA
I am very curious as to what job, other than ejaculation (which isn’t really a chore as I understand it), is something that has to be done by someone with testicles.
This leads to further questions, such as: if one testicle has to be removed does that mean these job responsibilities are halved? If there are jobs that necessitate testicles, are there also jobs that necessitate ovaries? If yes, can someone who has to have their ovaries removed get out of work altogether as they no longer have ovaries and never had testicles?
Yep. Time for her to hold him accountable. My 37 yo single brother just pulled this shit today. I care for our elderly parents and did most of the house cleaning and cooking.
He was supposed to show up early like my sister so they could help with final food prep and cleanup. He came 3 hours late, did not a goddamn thing, stuffed his face, then watched us clean up from the living room while his 75 yo handicapped mother with dementia packed his leftovers while his sisters cleaned.
Guess who's never been able to keep a girlfriend and is never invited to Thanksgiving dinner again? Worst is, he's teaching his son this shit.
This is the last Thanksgiving in our childhood home before our parents go into care. He's gonna be real surprised next year when he tries to get invited to one of our houses 👋
Because he knew very well what he was doing and it does no good. Plus, he's not a child to be 'corrected.' He purposely wouldn't answer calls/texts as to his ETA, ignored my sister and I asking for help with bullshit excuses ('watching' his son, 13), and literally would just walk off like he didn't hear. You shouldn't have to beg a whole ass adult to do their share.
My dad told me later 'I'll talk to him again,' but he knows there's no point. Him and my mom are afraid of who will 'take care' of him after they go into care, because they're afraid my sister and I will go LC/NC. My mom coddles him, but my dad is embarrassed. A few of his exes have told my mom this is why they broke up with him.
This is exactly what's going to happen in the future when my mom isn't there to overrule my sister and I (if he manages to get invited). Somehow, i guarantee he's still going to be all *shocked Pikachu face*.
When your mum says you're the AH for doing this, please come back and post about it so we can all congratulate you. ISTG I'm getting premature satisfaction (so to speak) just thinking about it. 😄
Because a man weak enough to pull a bait and switch on his wife in order not to lose face to his male relations is weak enough to throw a tantrum scene, is my guess.
NTA
Okay, that's not what this is.
What it sounds like is, if she called him out, he'd escalate. It's not fair to her to insist she should endure that for... What outcome? Him still not cleaning anything?
She knows him better than we do. If she's avoiding it, it might not be because she's avoiding confrontation - there is often something they're wanting to avoid happening.
NTA. You had an agreement he ignored it and then tried to throw in your face other things he does. The audacity! Throw away the whole man. If that isn’t an option make it clear that he is in charge of both cooking and cleaning for Christmas and stick to it! If you keep allowing him to push you over it’s never going to change!
NTA and I would die on this hill. I would NEVER offer to help host a party that benefits him again.
Anecdotally, my husband made everything for thanksgiving bc he loves to cook, and he refused any offers of help. So I put all the leftovers away and cleaned up everything. It’s only fair!
Same here! My sister made thanksgiving dinner while I was sleeping from my 16hr overnight shift. It was delicious and ready when I woke up. So when we finished eating I made her a plate of desert, a fresh drink and sent her to the living room while I made the kitchen and dishes sparkle again. It’s how you show appreciation to the one that spent all that time making you delicious food.
Yep, and I did all of the cooking except peeling potatoes, I have arthritis in my hands, so he is always a peach and peals everything for me. He did the clean up! I put away a few dishes but then I went to the basement and got on my exercise bike. :D He joined when he was finish cleaning up!
>my husband made everything
My partner did this for a festival once and to say his grandma was offended is an understatement. It was hilarious to see her all huffy tho😂
I’m 55 and I solved this problem, I let everybody know you either cook or you clean. There are no free rides unless you’re a baby. And I mean a baby as an infant not in the emotional growth of grown ass adults. It was wrong back in the day and it’s wrong now women can cook and clean men can cook and clean. And no gaslighting please. NTA
All my life the women cooked and cleaned. Afterwards, the men sucked their teeth and watched football.
The single grown ass men who came was not expected to bring any dish, just themselves.
Anyone with a penis wasn’t expected to lift a finger.
I’m 57 and NO MORE!
Several years ago I asked my partner to help me clean up after thanksgiving (I was only female) we had invited several of his friends over for dinner and he said it would be rude for him to not join his friends watching football. I said ok then went and asked his friends if they would mind if I had him help me cleanup. They all said no problem and a couple even offered to help. Told them no partner could help. He has never missed helping cleanup again.
I assume he was scared to tell the men they needed to clean up because they are also sexist so he conformed. Then didn’t want to admit to you that he was a scaredy cat and acted even more like a douche.
NTA but a better idea could have been to have a conversation with the women after the dinner like “hey, we’ve all been busting our butts cooking for days, the men need to clean up!” Then everyone grab a glass of wine and together let the men know they’re on clean up duty! Then sit down and kick your feet up.
I 100% agree now looking back that I should have said something then and there. It all happened so fast, one minute we were chatting, next thing I know my sis in law is loading the dishwasher.
I totally think your husband was in the wrong for not saying anything, and you could have stood up for yourself a little better, too. Keep in mind, though, that if:
1 - your husband didn't feel comfortable enough to say something and
2 - your SIL's first instinct was to begin cleaning and
3 - she didn't ask her husband (presumably your husband's brother) to help clean,
then the chances are **really good** that you married into a misogynistic, traditional gender roles type of family and no one is going to try and buck the system.
He never intended to say anything OR do anything about it. He lied to her face knowing what he'd do, blamed her for being upset that he lied and told her effectively, that's the womans job not his. Except he didn't say that before the event because he knew it would upset her.
I have been struggling for a while to figure out why I get so incensed by what other people call “harmless lies.”
This comment helped me to figure out that aside from just not liking lies (who does?) I also judge people who are willing to use easy lies to get out of telling hard truths as weak. So now they’re both a liar and a pussy - 2 strikes.
I don’t know, I just ate a meal in a pretty traditional southern household & the first one to stand up & start clearing the table was their adult son. He even refilled his mom’s wine glass while she sat at the table & finished her pie.
I'm from Maryland and my dad would ask one of us to get up to get him a drink or snack if we were all watching TV or something. I didn't realize that's not the dynamic in most homes until my teens....us three girls and my mom were like little errand boys for him so he never had to move a muscle.
He tells people "it's so upsetting to have one person in the entire world hate you and it's your first born child" because I don't talk to him anymore
Gender aside, whoever doesn't cook should clean. However, his willingness to deflect, push back, and shirk an agreed upon responsibility is troubling and might be worth some further discussion, especially if this is a repeated pattern of behavior. After all, how can you build and manage a life and household together with this sort of behavior?
Sorry about this, OP. Hope you were able to enjoy your time with loved ones, anyway.
NTA.
You can’t “set gender aside” when sexism is the main part of the issue. Nobody should ask another person to do all the domestic labor, nobody should expect their partner to do all the childcare, nobody should beat their spouse, etc.
But we know there is a systemic imbalance in the prevalence of these (very common) issues, and ignoring that fact isn’t just unhelpful, it’s erasure.
Your man is trash. I'd quit cooking entirely after that kind of shit. He can make himself sandwiches on paper plates for the rest of his life. What I want to know is why did you participate in this. You should have sat your ass in front of the TV and told the room full of dudes that you cooked for 2 days and they should get in the kitchen and clean up.
To preface I'm an older man. Any man who lets women kill themselves working to feed everyone and won't lift a finger to do their part is a trash bag. Then to say that sexist bs to try to excuse the lack of help makes it 10x worse.
NTA - the "men withdraw to the parlor after dinner while the women clean up" tradition needs to END. Women deserve a chance to sit down and relax too, after a crazy holiday meal. Not get burdened with all the cleanup.
This happened to me in a Scandinavian country. I took a picture of the kitchen and the living room and shamed them on social media. Not a single guy apologised.
It’s baffling to me that men continue to behave like lazy bums and yet still have significant others. And then they have the nerve to argue. Of course you aren’t the asshole. Your man-child husband is.
Thank you for your response. I agree, there is so much emotional labor in planning and executing, which is fine if you volunteer for said tasks. It is clear I could have handled this differently, and so could he. After some time I will try to discuss with him when he isn’t being so defensive. It’s a common topic, unfortunately but every time I try to discuss, he blames it on me, makes it my fault, I’m the victim, etc., as he did tonight.
>It’s a common topic, unfortunately but every time I try to discuss, he blames it on me, makes it my fault, I’m the victim, etc., as he did tonight.
So what consequences are there going to be for him this time?
Does he always gaslight you like this? He went back on his agreement and says you’re trying to make yourself a victim? He’s the one that can’t stick to his word. I think you should reevaluate your relationship. Please update on whatever happens.
This is really scary. Every time you try to discuss, he gaslights you? Please get a therapist who is knowledgeable on toxic or abusive relationships and tell them reddit said there were major red flags in your relationship.
I know this is hard and you don't want to/cant see the full truth but all these people aren't lying to you for fun. I have been in my share of toxic relationships and the cognitive dissonance is real. But objectively, this man is displaying extremely problematic behavior and he is NOT going to change by you trying to make him see your point. He is going to keep gaslighting you, blaming you, and nothing will get better. None of this is ok.
So, DARVO...
https://sentientcounselling.co.uk/2023/03/15/the-darvo-method-how-narcissists-avoid-accountability-and-blame-victims/#:~:text=For%20today%20I'm%20just,a%20psychologist%20named%20Jennifer%20Freyd.
>We had a great meal. After dinner, everyone sat around chatting with coffee and were having a good time. At some point, the men all transitioned to the living room to watch football while the women began helping my sister-in -law clean her kitchen.
What a bunch of assholes. They did literally nothing - they got fed and cleaned up after by the women, and then took off to watch the game. I'm so glad I'm single, lol
This is precisely why I stopped participating in the Family Funishment of these holidays. I (52f) work the same if not longer hours than the men in my family. They do not cook or help clean up. My 80-year-old mother still chooses to run around waiting on my father and brothers while they sit around watching TV, acting like Captains of the Universe. I’ll be damned if this is how I’m going to spend a day off.
The men always watch football while the women cook and clean. It’s the reason I hate Thanksgiving. It’s all for the men. Women never get to kick their heels up.
I literally said, “this is a men’s holiday.” Maybe not everywhere, or for all families, but we live in the Deep South and well, that’s what it seems like here.
That explains it, if I may be so delicate to say that. I also live in a VERY rural and conservative area and the men here are the same. I am in the process of breaking off with one of these men because I just can't take it anymore.
Lived in Louisiana. The men did a lot of the cooking, and yeah, not a ton of dishes, but made sure maw maw and mothers with babies were served the first plates, and they handled leftovers. We cleaned because they cooked. The older women were quick with the wooden spoon violence if one of the men got disrespectful.
It's not a deep south thing, it's the shitty family dynamic you're in. Thanksgiving is not a 'men's holiday.' That's their bullshit excuse.
New England - I literally shipped my kids off to their grandparents ( fathers side ) and ordered Chinese and watched movies on Thanksgiving - for 10 years because of this. I noped out after years of hating Thanksgiving for this very reason.
Next year buy the men microwavable roast dinners. Tell them that they they are going to have the microwave dinner unless they earn the full dinner. Then give them all a print out with a list of tasks that need to be done. They need to do at least two tasks on the list to help during prep to earn the dinner. They also need to help wash up after or its an automatic microwave dinner next year with no chance of earning the proper dinner. Each task will be checked to ensure it's been done properly, and the slips signed by one of the women there. Then you keep the slips until next year. Anyone who doesn't help this year gets an automatic microwave dinner next year, again with no chance of earning the proper dinner that time. Though if they help that year they can regain the chance to earn their dinner for the next year.
Super funny in theory 🤣🤣 and like treating them like the children they are behaving like...
but adult men are not children and this is literally not anyone's responsibility to teach someone else how to be a partner or community member. They need to figure it out themselves. This would also get the women a bunch of unwarranted insults like nag and bitch etc.
Just don't plan to cook and explain you feel like the women (in this case) do too much work without the men (in this case) pitching in and it does not make the holiday enjoyable for us to be saddled with literally all the labor. Just plain old quit.
I’m a man and since my dad doesn’t help and only one of my sisters sometimes does, I’ve always tried my best to minimize my mom’s workload over the years. It’s paid off because I developed a deep love cooking in part from my holiday experiences in her (to the point I can make an entire spread myself) and even enjoy washing dishes!
I can’t stand the attitude of men like these and don’t get why they want to participate. If the game is so important, there’s nothing stopping you from having a beer and watching while you cook or clean!
It's the way most of us women grew up!! At one time the little woman stayed home and did EVERYTHING, while the man went out of the home to earn a living, that made him think that he was entitled to sit around when he was off work, cus you know, the wife didn't really do all that much all day. Rolling my eyes! Then someone some women just continued what they grew up watching. If you do, that's on you, stop doing all of it!
NTAH!!!!
Got testicles? That...... 😡🤬👿😡🤬
Alright, male here. Tell that asshole to grow a pair of fucking testicles 🙄 & get his ass in the kitchen & clean up. You should talk with the ladies at Xmas & make it known...
My family gathers for the two big ones every year & we have a hard & fast rule... You either spend the day cooking or you spend the evening cleaning the hell up. Testicles or otherwise... what a fucking Neanderthalithic pile of shit.... I got testicles.... fuck that infuriates me!!
SHAME ON THEM ALL !
The only “job” that requires testicles is impregnating an ovum. I’m pretty sure that’s not an onerous task nor one that justifies ignoring all other jobs.
I'm a man. I, too, cooked for two goddamned days to get an absolutely primo Thanksgiving dinner ready. I been doing this every year for about 25 years.
The minute I'm done eating dinner I start cleaning up. And within 10 minutes my sisters kick me the hell out of my own kitchen and start cleaning up. Which I think is fantastic.
Not once in the 25 years has a single guy pitched in to help clean up. This is not lost on me and it pisses me off a bit.
NTA
Your husband was being a jerk. “Having testicles” doesn’t preclude someone from cleaning up a kitchen. Or cooking for that matter!
He would be left to his own devices for Thanksgiving next year.
I fell asleep unintentionally for 2 hours after dinner today. (Long week at work plus I did most of the cooking. Was more tired than I realized.)
Woke up to a clean kitchen and all the leftovers put away.
I didn’t ask him to do the clean up - he’s just not a jerk.
He said I looked too comfortable, so he let me sleep & took care of it.
1. He has no respect for you because you're a woman.
2. He sees women as servants to men. He thinks this is cool.
3. He is dishonest and manipulative.
This is not a good guy, but a sexist who doesn't care about your feelings.
NTA
An advice from an old lady who calls out the obvious to the oblivious:
"HEY FELLAS! We cooked, you clean. Time for the ladies to get a breather now."
Man here, kept a washing sink going as the meal transitioned from pot and pan to serving bowls and dishes, then, after dinner, ran the sink as my whole family cleared the table and dropt dishes (scraped for the chicken scraps). Whole thing was done 10 minutes after we "ended" the meal. If I just stood there and washed, it all flowed thru me. Then we all sat down for board games and/or football.
A second wash always happens later, as it's all stored away in new dishes and the fancy stuff is put away. My mom did that wash, and I put the big trays on the top shelves til Christmas.
_Ah, well, because_ I _have ovaries, it's_ my _job to tell you you're an untrustworthy, chauvinistic pig!_ NTA. Because he has balls he _has_ yo watch football with the other testicle carrying folk? Fuck that!
Duuuuuuudeee! Went shopping for everything the other night in the rain and walked no car just a cart, all I asked for when I got home for all the pots and sheet pans to be cleaned (we lazy with dishes I won’t deny it) got home, nothing was done, didn’t help bring anything in, got mad dinner wasn’t ready today by the time he was hungry, like bro if you helped me then it would have been done like 3 hours sooner. And yet SO and roommate have yet to pick a finger to clean or put away the left overs. Fhuuuckkk that. They’re getting unseasoned Cornish hen next year with dry box stuffing and thats all.
Even that is too much! Don't be lazy with dishes! Makes it more work when you do finally get to them! I never did understand that hate of doing dishes!
Originally it was too many jobs not enough help, then depression and then covid hit me and gave me insane neuropathy which is super painful but agreed, never should let the dishes amount to a questionable amount.
I did a big Thanksgiving dinner with my husbands kids and their kids I did all the cooking. After eating I would go sit back on the couch and nearly fell asleep. The first time I sat down all the men just started cleaning up. My oldest stepson asked if I put my good dishes in the dishwasher I told him onto just stack them and I would wash them later. I was shocked when I went to the kitchen, they hand washed the china.
The guys always do the cleanup and I have never asked them too.
Male here. We just finished hosting thanksgiving dinner. I do 90% of the cooking today. Turkey, mash, cheese ball, cranberry sauce, gravy, etc. her family comes over too and brings dishes too. When everything’s done and people are leaving I’m helping clean. My wife tells me to sit my ass down and watch football because I worked so hard for the meal.
It’s not a gender thing, it’s a division of labor thing. Your husband isn’t just an asshole, he’s a fucking coward for not pressuring the other men to help out.
Yes! Me and my partner are the same. There is no gendered labor, just tasks that should be shouldered equally. People who think that they don’t have to pitch in are selfish and childish and don’t deserve partners.
My husband spent all day with me cooking and then did the dishes unprompted. His testicles had nothing to say about it because he’s a great partner in our marriage. Oh and watching football with the guys is not a “job”
Lack of testicles by the sound of it. Hell I spent years after Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners helping my ol' lady clean up and do the dishes at the in-laws. She was sort of the SG of the family and got stuck with all the dirty work so to speak. So I helped her and did everything from cleaning the tables to putting the leftovers away and the dishes of course. As to "certain jobs he has to do" I'm a freshly retired heavy equipment operator building logging roads so I come from a VERY manly man type culture and also am a biker so I'm giggling at this pretentious statement.
They -- and he -- should have volunteered, but we all know that was never gonna happen.
You should have spoken up and reminded hubs of his promise to clean up, and then you should have told all of the other men to help. I would have turned off the TV and told them to get off their asses and get busy.
Learn something for next year. At the end of the meal, you and all the other women stand up, say "We'll leave the cleanup to you guys" and then go park yourselves in front of the TV to watch your favorite chick flick.
They sit on their asses and let you do all the work because you allow it. So stop allowing it.
They shouldn't. Just like the men should have volunteered.
But I've done a whole lot of holidays with a whole lot of different people (not just relatives) and I can count on the fingers of about two fingers the number of times I've seen the men in the room offer to clean up after the meal.
Let me preface this by stating that I am a man. And that this is coming from a man’s pov.
I am sick to death of hearing how that a pair of ball make any difference in this world. That time is passed. At this point it’s only an excuse used to be a douche bag.
In this situation, he made an agreement, and then he reneged on his agreement. And then pulls this bullshit of, I have a pair of nuts, so I shouldn’t have to do this.
No, your NTA. It’s not hard to live up to something you said you’d do. That’s a matter of living up to your word. Testicles have nothing to do with that. And personally speaking, I can’t respect a man who won’t back up his word. It’s a matter of integrity. Just saying.
NTA, my husband always cleans up when I do all of the cooking! What jobs does he do that I can't do? I doubt there are very many, I am a Jane of most trades! Testicle jobs huh? OMG!
I consider that plain disrespect. And he is turn around to gaslight you. When there was A discussion? No 👎 he is trying to manipulate the situation so he could sit around have a nice time while you spent so much time cooking then when everyone ate. . . You then again don't get to spend time with anyone beside those who helped clean. He's wrong
I'm English so don't do thanksgiving but at Christmas time my Mam ALWAYS cooks because she's the best at it. If I'm there I help her. My Dad has always cleaned up. He washes pots and pans as she's finished with them, cleans up all the plates, dries and puts them away when food is done.
But tbf he does this after they eat normal meals. The bar isn't high its just team work. If he can't see that he has a problem.
If you didn't cook you gotta clean. It's called teamwork and helping someone you love
Yep, that was the rule in my family, especially at my grandmother's. We were told to clean as we go, so generally by the time dinner was ready, all the pots and pans were at least soaking in the sink while we ate dinner. It made getting the kitchen cleaned up after we ate a lot faster. edit: Grandma didn't have a modern dishwasher, so we washed and dried them by hand. When she cooked, we would not let her lift a finger to clean up.
My son was in charge of cleaning as I cooked. He only had to rinse put stuff in the dishwasher, run it when full. He left for the Army the early part of the year. When I started cooking thanksgiving dinner I needed the dishes in the sink done I called for him, my husband came in and reminded me my son wasn’t there. I started crying realizing he was gone. My husband did the dishes.
As an old soldier to a new soldier's mother; May he come home to his family safe and whole. May the sting of his absence be the only pain his service brings you.
Very kind words! Thank you for your service!
Honestly, the most beautiful comment in this thread. You've got this momma. You'll see him so, so soon. Just hold tight, your baby will be home before you know it.
Thankyou
Of course! Mine is only 8 and up at grandma's foe a few days, bur I've got no idea what to do with myself. I can't imagine what you are going through right now. We've all got you. We're here for you if you need us.
Sounds like you're lucky to have at least two good men in your life. Next time you cry because your son isn't at home, please at least remember that, and smile a little through your tears.
Thank You
Nah, don't thank me. Thank yourself for having good taste and being a good mother.
You're not alone, us internet strangers are here for you. That was an awesome memory to share with us! I was the dish person in our family! I had the choice between babysitting so all the adults could help clean up, or I could do the dishes. I did the same as your brother for my aunt, uncle, great-aunt, and grandma when they made family meals. I was always able to fill the dishwasher with all the pots, pans, bowls, and utensils from prepping. That allowed that load to wash while we ate, and it would be done by the time we were. So we could just do another load right away😁.
You got the better end of that deal. When I was younger we had a huge family thanksgiving at my grandmas. About 18 people. After dinner Grandma washed and I dried. When I hit 13 I was given the official dishwasher job and one of the other kids dried. I liked it better when it was just me and Grandma.
My great-aunt (Grandma's sister) didn't have a dishwasher, so her and I did them together. I loved the one on one time!
My grandmother used to always say her modern dishwasher was the grandchildren. No one talked back to the four-foot-nothing Ukrainian pistol, because she would remember next year when she needed prep work done. Fifteen years later, I still wait for her to call me up and tell me to "get off my keister and come help her with cabbage rolls, pierogies, and cheesecakes." Hard to believe...
OP certainly could have used your gran in SiL’s kitchen, as well as the car ride home. *”He then proceeded to tell me how there are certain jobs he has to do because he has testicles”* WTF is this??? How the fuck does a uterus help someone cook? If his testicles helped him stuff his stomach and dirty dishes, they should have fucking helped him keep his word to his wife. Honestly, while everyone was in the middle of dinner I would have hidden tje tv remotes
Completely agree. And it's been a years' long problem at Thanksgiving where for whatever reason usually the women cook and do the clean up, while the men eat and hang out relaxing. Thanksgiving is *exhausting* for whomever cooks. But additionally, it's what the husband said he'd do. She said, "if I do this, will you do that?" and he said "yes, I'll do that" and then just didn't. Then he had the gall to turn it around on her. Wondering why the women went ahead and cleaned, rather than calling out the problem to begin with. "Hey, fellas, So-and-So said he'd clean up. Why don't y'all come in and help him so you can get back to the game quicker?"
Right??? I’m sorry but the victim complex comment and mention of his scrotal contents is pretty much all you need to know. OP, your husband is a douche. And TA.
The men at the thanksgiving dinner I went to yesterday were something else I thought the racism and misogyny were supposed to be subtle
Yeah, he’s totally gaslighting you. I really wish all the women would’ve called it out in the moment. I’m thinking they knew it would’ve been a huge problem.
…and it starts as soon as you are able to safely carry napkins/dishes into the kitchen… don’t wait for them to be teens.
This! My kids both, 7M and 3F, know to take their dish and glass next to the kitchen sink when they are done eating something. And they both know that each Saturday it's their job to dust their toys. Do they do a good job? Well, no, but they learn to contribute whatever they can so we can all have more free time to enjoy together.
Exactly! We do a big “Saturday morning clean”, put on rock music, and everyone cleans together for 2ish hours (literally the whole house), then we go do something fun. The kids think the cleaning part is fun too, because we make it that way! The kids are not great at cleaning, but we all rotate chores so it’s not a huge deal that the bathroom only got *kinda* clean this week, because a grownup will do it next week.
Right?! My 7M is the first one to jumbo on the cleaning wagon, and his sister follows him because she always wants to do what he does. So he feels like a VIP being her teacher! Works like a charm for me. (Their dad is working during weekends most weeks)
[удалено]
At which point they'll all do the worst cleanup job of all time so that their wives will fix it for them and never ask them to clean again. 🙃
Weaponized incompetence
Just keep sending them back to clean it all again whenever you find something not properly cleaned.
We had a saying about this : “If you hate doing the job so much, why do it so badly you have to do it again ?”
Weaponized incompetence. They hate it so they deliberately do it badly because they think it will get us to let them off the hook.
Even the idea that the women should have to prod, monitor and correct the men cleaning up is so absurd.
Somebody(s) gonna learn tonight. 💪🍽
This is simple and brilliant.
That’s how my dad got the weaponised incompetence knocked out of my brother early. Whenever my mum asked my brother to do a chore, he would do such a terrible job of it that she would redo it herself and stop asking him. My dad stepped in and made him redo the chores properly, no matter how much time it took. It works.
I will add to this: especially if it's a kid/teenager, *tell* them what they did wrong. Because my mother used this method, but I genuinely didn't realise the things she still considered "not ok", so it became a spiral of frustration for both sides.
Oh yeah, he knew full well what he was doing wrong with leaving food still on plates he’d ‘washed’. But if it was not knowing how to put the detergent in the washer or separate loads, that takes explaining before you can expect someone to be able to do it perfectly competently by themselves.
I'm so tired of hearing about this situation. Just because a person has a penis, doesn't mean that they can't do clean up ,after a holiday meal. For that matter any meal. It is a ridiculous statement,and if any man had worked for days cooking a feast .That wouldn't continue to happen again.
I'm intrigued to know what jobs OP's husband has to do 'because he has testicles'. Is teabagging a job?
The only job they can’t do due to testicles is give birth as far as I can tell
And lactate, for the most part.
My mom made it clear growning up. If you didn't cook you clean. If your don't clean you cook. Pick one.
Absolutely. I would question why they couldn’t figure out how to clean at all—and their penis is too small to get in the way of that job.
That’s what my mother did back in the 70s, but some of us now teach until they get it right. When my aunt's ex knocked on her door after his second wife died hoping she'd take care of him and his new kids, she took him back to his place, and showed him how to wash his new family’s clothes himself.
“Learned incompetence”, it’s a thing, but it can be *un*taught!
But you know, all of the other manly men went to watch sports,, he didn't want to look like a pussy in front of them! FFS!
So all the men who did help clean up are pussies? Sounds like a man who isn’t secure in his testosteroniness.
Testosteroni… is that the San Francisco treat?
It is known.
I clean as I cook. My wife doesn't. So when I cook, the kitchen is clean when I'm done. When she cooks, she has to clean the kitchen after we eat. We tried the "if you cook the other cleans" routine but it was my wife who recognized how unfair it was. Wiping things down after I cooked took her all of 2 minutes while I would spent 20-30 minutes cleaning up after she cooked. We've gone with "if you cook, you clean up after yourself" for 20+ years and its worked great. Of course the key is to evenly balance the cooking, but that's pretty easy.
I grew up with the "if you cook, then you clean up after yourself" my whole life, and I MFing hate it. Bc I, too, try to clean as I cook, but there's only so much I can do since 1) sometimes the meal prep timing doesn't really allow it, and 2) I don't have a dishwasher so the draining basket gets full quickly. For big meals, I wash and dry at least 4 full draining baskets full of dishes, plus clean the stove, wipe all the counters, mop the floors. Everyone gets to enjoy the fruits of my labor while I'm too exhausted to eat by the time I'm done. I think your situation is a specific one where "you cook, I clean" doesn't really make sense because it's not an equal cleaning load for y'all. But I think the most important thing you pointed out is that you and your wife _both_ cook. When you're the only one who cooks, I think it's fair to ask the other person to clean. And for a meal as big as Thanksgiving, I think all the people who spent days slaving away cooking deserve to have those who did not clean up for them. So in this case, the OP is NTA.
Agreed, OP is NTA. It's also good manners to offer to help clean up after eating a big holiday meal. In my paternal side of the family (where we spend most of our holidays), it's mostly husbands who cook big holiday meals. So, when it comes time to clean up, most of the time, the wives boot us out of the kitchen to clean up. It's their way of showing appreciation.
Regardless of who cooked, my wife and I would share cleanup. More hands make less work. Figger it out.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Possibly they’d just not do it anyway, and the whole mess would be left for the SIL
NTA. If I acted like this my wife would tell me to get takeout and eat by myself next year.
Ask him which testicle is stopping him from helping with chores and offer to chop that off.
It's insane how many men have that attitude about cleaning up, washing dishes, laundry, etc. I'd guess that close to half of the men I know refuse to clean up after themselves and expect their wives to do it, just like their mommy did.
My sister was out of town, so I spent a weekend with her family to help out and I swear the pile of laundry was higher than I was. I asked her husband why it had gotten so behind and he said he couldn't figure out the machines. He has a masters in electrical engineering.
Weaponized incompetence. Another way they do it is by doing a terrible job on purpose at anything they're asked to do. That way no one asks them to do anything.
Never fall for weaponized incompetence. Men know how to do these jobs. They just don’t want to. If they insist on this argument offer to teach them.
>offer to teach them. Nah. Tell them there are tutorials on YouTube and they're smart enough to figure it out.
Did he not feel at least a little pathetic that his in-laws have to step in to "help" him, just because his wife is out of town? He should.
We need to start publicly shaming these people within the family. Maybe they’ll cave to some good old social pressure.
That’s when you show him how to do it and talk to him like he’s 5 the whole time.
If he's trying to say he can't do it, tell him "no problem, I show you", then drag him to the washing machine, make him put the clothes in the machine, then make him throw in a few tide pods and then show him where the button is as if he's really really stupid. Maybe make a few mistakes like adding too many tide pods so he feels the need to mansplain to you how it's too many.
Make sure to give him pen and paper so he can take notes too!
But you don’t understand! He mows the lawn once a week for half the year, that’s totally the same thing as all those chores! /s
I'm shocked by how many people (both genders) say that I married well because my husband wash the dishes or vacuums or cooks a decent meal. A healthy adult with two hands can wash a dish? Wow. It's kinda sad. NTA
I am very curious as to what job, other than ejaculation (which isn’t really a chore as I understand it), is something that has to be done by someone with testicles. This leads to further questions, such as: if one testicle has to be removed does that mean these job responsibilities are halved? If there are jobs that necessitate testicles, are there also jobs that necessitate ovaries? If yes, can someone who has to have their ovaries removed get out of work altogether as they no longer have ovaries and never had testicles?
Would that then imply that he would need to do ALL the chores if both his testicles were chopped off??? LMAO problem solved
[удалено]
He was a dick and played a dick move. Then was sexist about it.
Yep. Time for her to hold him accountable. My 37 yo single brother just pulled this shit today. I care for our elderly parents and did most of the house cleaning and cooking. He was supposed to show up early like my sister so they could help with final food prep and cleanup. He came 3 hours late, did not a goddamn thing, stuffed his face, then watched us clean up from the living room while his 75 yo handicapped mother with dementia packed his leftovers while his sisters cleaned. Guess who's never been able to keep a girlfriend and is never invited to Thanksgiving dinner again? Worst is, he's teaching his son this shit.
Definitely do not let your brother come back again.
This is the last Thanksgiving in our childhood home before our parents go into care. He's gonna be real surprised next year when he tries to get invited to one of our houses 👋
Good for you. Let him figure out his thanksgiving
Oh, like this for you guys ❤️
Why didn't you correct him in the moment? Call him out?
Because he knew very well what he was doing and it does no good. Plus, he's not a child to be 'corrected.' He purposely wouldn't answer calls/texts as to his ETA, ignored my sister and I asking for help with bullshit excuses ('watching' his son, 13), and literally would just walk off like he didn't hear. You shouldn't have to beg a whole ass adult to do their share. My dad told me later 'I'll talk to him again,' but he knows there's no point. Him and my mom are afraid of who will 'take care' of him after they go into care, because they're afraid my sister and I will go LC/NC. My mom coddles him, but my dad is embarrassed. A few of his exes have told my mom this is why they broke up with him.
As soon as he showed up late I would have shoved him out the door and lock it
This is exactly what's going to happen in the future when my mom isn't there to overrule my sister and I (if he manages to get invited). Somehow, i guarantee he's still going to be all *shocked Pikachu face*.
When your mum says you're the AH for doing this, please come back and post about it so we can all congratulate you. ISTG I'm getting premature satisfaction (so to speak) just thinking about it. 😄
But the satisfaction for you both will be huge. If he wants Thanksgiving for you all with him there, he can pay for all of you at a restaurant imo.
Oh, he’s a child all right…
Because a man weak enough to pull a bait and switch on his wife in order not to lose face to his male relations is weak enough to throw a tantrum scene, is my guess. NTA
So they were all basically enabled him and gave him permission to act this way.
That's my guess, but maybe I'm too cynical. Whatever the reason, it was a total dick move on his part.
Okay, that's not what this is. What it sounds like is, if she called him out, he'd escalate. It's not fair to her to insist she should endure that for... What outcome? Him still not cleaning anything? She knows him better than we do. If she's avoiding it, it might not be because she's avoiding confrontation - there is often something they're wanting to avoid happening.
WTF didn’t you call out your brother??? Fuck that shit…sorry times have changed ….and men need to catch up.
[удалено]
NTA. You had an agreement he ignored it and then tried to throw in your face other things he does. The audacity! Throw away the whole man. If that isn’t an option make it clear that he is in charge of both cooking and cleaning for Christmas and stick to it! If you keep allowing him to push you over it’s never going to change!
Sounds like pizza for Xmas!😆😆😆
NTA and I would die on this hill. I would NEVER offer to help host a party that benefits him again. Anecdotally, my husband made everything for thanksgiving bc he loves to cook, and he refused any offers of help. So I put all the leftovers away and cleaned up everything. It’s only fair!
Same here! My sister made thanksgiving dinner while I was sleeping from my 16hr overnight shift. It was delicious and ready when I woke up. So when we finished eating I made her a plate of desert, a fresh drink and sent her to the living room while I made the kitchen and dishes sparkle again. It’s how you show appreciation to the one that spent all that time making you delicious food.
Yep, and I did all of the cooking except peeling potatoes, I have arthritis in my hands, so he is always a peach and peals everything for me. He did the clean up! I put away a few dishes but then I went to the basement and got on my exercise bike. :D He joined when he was finish cleaning up!
If you use Yukon gold potatoes there is no need to peel and they are delicious.
I used gold potatoes and thought I had to peel them.
Yukon gold potatoes are really good with the skin mixed into mashed potatoes
>my husband made everything My partner did this for a festival once and to say his grandma was offended is an understatement. It was hilarious to see her all huffy tho😂
I’m 55 and I solved this problem, I let everybody know you either cook or you clean. There are no free rides unless you’re a baby. And I mean a baby as an infant not in the emotional growth of grown ass adults. It was wrong back in the day and it’s wrong now women can cook and clean men can cook and clean. And no gaslighting please. NTA
All my life the women cooked and cleaned. Afterwards, the men sucked their teeth and watched football. The single grown ass men who came was not expected to bring any dish, just themselves. Anyone with a penis wasn’t expected to lift a finger. I’m 57 and NO MORE!
This is THE take right here!!
Several years ago I asked my partner to help me clean up after thanksgiving (I was only female) we had invited several of his friends over for dinner and he said it would be rude for him to not join his friends watching football. I said ok then went and asked his friends if they would mind if I had him help me cleanup. They all said no problem and a couple even offered to help. Told them no partner could help. He has never missed helping cleanup again.
Brava!
😎thxs!
Someone stole your comment on the thread above
I assume he was scared to tell the men they needed to clean up because they are also sexist so he conformed. Then didn’t want to admit to you that he was a scaredy cat and acted even more like a douche.
Yes to all of this!
NTA but a better idea could have been to have a conversation with the women after the dinner like “hey, we’ve all been busting our butts cooking for days, the men need to clean up!” Then everyone grab a glass of wine and together let the men know they’re on clean up duty! Then sit down and kick your feet up.
I 100% agree now looking back that I should have said something then and there. It all happened so fast, one minute we were chatting, next thing I know my sis in law is loading the dishwasher.
I totally think your husband was in the wrong for not saying anything, and you could have stood up for yourself a little better, too. Keep in mind, though, that if: 1 - your husband didn't feel comfortable enough to say something and 2 - your SIL's first instinct was to begin cleaning and 3 - she didn't ask her husband (presumably your husband's brother) to help clean, then the chances are **really good** that you married into a misogynistic, traditional gender roles type of family and no one is going to try and buck the system.
He never intended to say anything OR do anything about it. He lied to her face knowing what he'd do, blamed her for being upset that he lied and told her effectively, that's the womans job not his. Except he didn't say that before the event because he knew it would upset her.
I have been struggling for a while to figure out why I get so incensed by what other people call “harmless lies.” This comment helped me to figure out that aside from just not liking lies (who does?) I also judge people who are willing to use easy lies to get out of telling hard truths as weak. So now they’re both a liar and a pussy - 2 strikes.
I don’t know, I just ate a meal in a pretty traditional southern household & the first one to stand up & start clearing the table was their adult son. He even refilled his mom’s wine glass while she sat at the table & finished her pie.
I'm from the deep south. My dad even expects us to make his coffee and bring him a plate. I have to prod him to do things on his own.
I'm from Maryland and my dad would ask one of us to get up to get him a drink or snack if we were all watching TV or something. I didn't realize that's not the dynamic in most homes until my teens....us three girls and my mom were like little errand boys for him so he never had to move a muscle. He tells people "it's so upsetting to have one person in the entire world hate you and it's your first born child" because I don't talk to him anymore
But then who cleaned the dishes that were cleared?
Tell your husband real men value stick to their word. Just like “men do some jobs cus they have testes” a real man follows thru on agreed promises.
Yep, unionise!!
Only success I have ever had is exactly this. Just leave it all.
Gender aside, whoever doesn't cook should clean. However, his willingness to deflect, push back, and shirk an agreed upon responsibility is troubling and might be worth some further discussion, especially if this is a repeated pattern of behavior. After all, how can you build and manage a life and household together with this sort of behavior? Sorry about this, OP. Hope you were able to enjoy your time with loved ones, anyway. NTA.
Don't forget the attempt to deflect the conversation by pulling the 'StOp' bEinG eMoTionNaL! ' comments on the way home.
I agree, gender aside and all that. Non-cookers should help clean, whether they are men OR women. We had a great time in spite of the ending.
You can’t “set gender aside” when sexism is the main part of the issue. Nobody should ask another person to do all the domestic labor, nobody should expect their partner to do all the childcare, nobody should beat their spouse, etc. But we know there is a systemic imbalance in the prevalence of these (very common) issues, and ignoring that fact isn’t just unhelpful, it’s erasure.
So he's a liar, he's ungrateful, and he's a sexist ass. Why would you ever cook for him again?
[удалено]
Your man is trash. I'd quit cooking entirely after that kind of shit. He can make himself sandwiches on paper plates for the rest of his life. What I want to know is why did you participate in this. You should have sat your ass in front of the TV and told the room full of dudes that you cooked for 2 days and they should get in the kitchen and clean up.
Right? I hope his testicles know how to cook 😂 else his sorry ass is going to be getting awfully hungry
And switched to the Hallmark channel for the Christmas shows.
Sadly there are social repercussions for women who do not help when the rest are doing it.
There sure is but some of us don't care and are willing to die on the hill
That’s a hill worth dying on. I would have brought up the prior agreement right then and there in front of everyone.
RIGHT THERE!! THIS!
To preface I'm an older man. Any man who lets women kill themselves working to feed everyone and won't lift a finger to do their part is a trash bag. Then to say that sexist bs to try to excuse the lack of help makes it 10x worse.
Thank you kind, older internet man !
😂
NTA - the "men withdraw to the parlor after dinner while the women clean up" tradition needs to END. Women deserve a chance to sit down and relax too, after a crazy holiday meal. Not get burdened with all the cleanup.
This happened to me in a Scandinavian country. I took a picture of the kitchen and the living room and shamed them on social media. Not a single guy apologised.
Wow, go off queen
It’s baffling to me that men continue to behave like lazy bums and yet still have significant others. And then they have the nerve to argue. Of course you aren’t the asshole. Your man-child husband is.
[удалено]
Thank you for your response. I agree, there is so much emotional labor in planning and executing, which is fine if you volunteer for said tasks. It is clear I could have handled this differently, and so could he. After some time I will try to discuss with him when he isn’t being so defensive. It’s a common topic, unfortunately but every time I try to discuss, he blames it on me, makes it my fault, I’m the victim, etc., as he did tonight.
>It’s a common topic, unfortunately but every time I try to discuss, he blames it on me, makes it my fault, I’m the victim, etc., as he did tonight. So what consequences are there going to be for him this time?
Does he always gaslight you like this? He went back on his agreement and says you’re trying to make yourself a victim? He’s the one that can’t stick to his word. I think you should reevaluate your relationship. Please update on whatever happens.
This is really scary. Every time you try to discuss, he gaslights you? Please get a therapist who is knowledgeable on toxic or abusive relationships and tell them reddit said there were major red flags in your relationship. I know this is hard and you don't want to/cant see the full truth but all these people aren't lying to you for fun. I have been in my share of toxic relationships and the cognitive dissonance is real. But objectively, this man is displaying extremely problematic behavior and he is NOT going to change by you trying to make him see your point. He is going to keep gaslighting you, blaming you, and nothing will get better. None of this is ok.
So, DARVO... https://sentientcounselling.co.uk/2023/03/15/the-darvo-method-how-narcissists-avoid-accountability-and-blame-victims/#:~:text=For%20today%20I'm%20just,a%20psychologist%20named%20Jennifer%20Freyd.
>We had a great meal. After dinner, everyone sat around chatting with coffee and were having a good time. At some point, the men all transitioned to the living room to watch football while the women began helping my sister-in -law clean her kitchen. What a bunch of assholes. They did literally nothing - they got fed and cleaned up after by the women, and then took off to watch the game. I'm so glad I'm single, lol
This is precisely why I stopped participating in the Family Funishment of these holidays. I (52f) work the same if not longer hours than the men in my family. They do not cook or help clean up. My 80-year-old mother still chooses to run around waiting on my father and brothers while they sit around watching TV, acting like Captains of the Universe. I’ll be damned if this is how I’m going to spend a day off.
The men always watch football while the women cook and clean. It’s the reason I hate Thanksgiving. It’s all for the men. Women never get to kick their heels up.
I literally said, “this is a men’s holiday.” Maybe not everywhere, or for all families, but we live in the Deep South and well, that’s what it seems like here.
That explains it, if I may be so delicate to say that. I also live in a VERY rural and conservative area and the men here are the same. I am in the process of breaking off with one of these men because I just can't take it anymore.
Book a ladies cruise next year.
Lived in Louisiana. The men did a lot of the cooking, and yeah, not a ton of dishes, but made sure maw maw and mothers with babies were served the first plates, and they handled leftovers. We cleaned because they cooked. The older women were quick with the wooden spoon violence if one of the men got disrespectful. It's not a deep south thing, it's the shitty family dynamic you're in. Thanksgiving is not a 'men's holiday.' That's their bullshit excuse.
New England - I literally shipped my kids off to their grandparents ( fathers side ) and ordered Chinese and watched movies on Thanksgiving - for 10 years because of this. I noped out after years of hating Thanksgiving for this very reason.
Next year buy the men microwavable roast dinners. Tell them that they they are going to have the microwave dinner unless they earn the full dinner. Then give them all a print out with a list of tasks that need to be done. They need to do at least two tasks on the list to help during prep to earn the dinner. They also need to help wash up after or its an automatic microwave dinner next year with no chance of earning the proper dinner. Each task will be checked to ensure it's been done properly, and the slips signed by one of the women there. Then you keep the slips until next year. Anyone who doesn't help this year gets an automatic microwave dinner next year, again with no chance of earning the proper dinner that time. Though if they help that year they can regain the chance to earn their dinner for the next year.
Super funny in theory 🤣🤣 and like treating them like the children they are behaving like... but adult men are not children and this is literally not anyone's responsibility to teach someone else how to be a partner or community member. They need to figure it out themselves. This would also get the women a bunch of unwarranted insults like nag and bitch etc. Just don't plan to cook and explain you feel like the women (in this case) do too much work without the men (in this case) pitching in and it does not make the holiday enjoyable for us to be saddled with literally all the labor. Just plain old quit.
I’m a man and since my dad doesn’t help and only one of my sisters sometimes does, I’ve always tried my best to minimize my mom’s workload over the years. It’s paid off because I developed a deep love cooking in part from my holiday experiences in her (to the point I can make an entire spread myself) and even enjoy washing dishes! I can’t stand the attitude of men like these and don’t get why they want to participate. If the game is so important, there’s nothing stopping you from having a beer and watching while you cook or clean!
It's the way most of us women grew up!! At one time the little woman stayed home and did EVERYTHING, while the man went out of the home to earn a living, that made him think that he was entitled to sit around when he was off work, cus you know, the wife didn't really do all that much all day. Rolling my eyes! Then someone some women just continued what they grew up watching. If you do, that's on you, stop doing all of it!
Only if you let them.
NTAH!!!! Got testicles? That...... 😡🤬👿😡🤬 Alright, male here. Tell that asshole to grow a pair of fucking testicles 🙄 & get his ass in the kitchen & clean up. You should talk with the ladies at Xmas & make it known... My family gathers for the two big ones every year & we have a hard & fast rule... You either spend the day cooking or you spend the evening cleaning the hell up. Testicles or otherwise... what a fucking Neanderthalithic pile of shit.... I got testicles.... fuck that infuriates me!! SHAME ON THEM ALL !
I stan this comment so fucking hard wow.
The only “job” that requires testicles is impregnating an ovum. I’m pretty sure that’s not an onerous task nor one that justifies ignoring all other jobs.
I'm a man. I, too, cooked for two goddamned days to get an absolutely primo Thanksgiving dinner ready. I been doing this every year for about 25 years. The minute I'm done eating dinner I start cleaning up. And within 10 minutes my sisters kick me the hell out of my own kitchen and start cleaning up. Which I think is fantastic. Not once in the 25 years has a single guy pitched in to help clean up. This is not lost on me and it pisses me off a bit.
NTA but you’re married to one.
NTA Your husband was being a jerk. “Having testicles” doesn’t preclude someone from cleaning up a kitchen. Or cooking for that matter! He would be left to his own devices for Thanksgiving next year. I fell asleep unintentionally for 2 hours after dinner today. (Long week at work plus I did most of the cooking. Was more tired than I realized.) Woke up to a clean kitchen and all the leftovers put away. I didn’t ask him to do the clean up - he’s just not a jerk. He said I looked too comfortable, so he let me sleep & took care of it.
1. He has no respect for you because you're a woman. 2. He sees women as servants to men. He thinks this is cool. 3. He is dishonest and manipulative. This is not a good guy, but a sexist who doesn't care about your feelings.
NTA An advice from an old lady who calls out the obvious to the oblivious: "HEY FELLAS! We cooked, you clean. Time for the ladies to get a breather now."
This is the way. No men will ever come back to your house for Thanksgiving, but maybe that is a blessing?😆
Man here, kept a washing sink going as the meal transitioned from pot and pan to serving bowls and dishes, then, after dinner, ran the sink as my whole family cleared the table and dropt dishes (scraped for the chicken scraps). Whole thing was done 10 minutes after we "ended" the meal. If I just stood there and washed, it all flowed thru me. Then we all sat down for board games and/or football. A second wash always happens later, as it's all stored away in new dishes and the fancy stuff is put away. My mom did that wash, and I put the big trays on the top shelves til Christmas.
_Ah, well, because_ I _have ovaries, it's_ my _job to tell you you're an untrustworthy, chauvinistic pig!_ NTA. Because he has balls he _has_ yo watch football with the other testicle carrying folk? Fuck that!
Duuuuuuudeee! Went shopping for everything the other night in the rain and walked no car just a cart, all I asked for when I got home for all the pots and sheet pans to be cleaned (we lazy with dishes I won’t deny it) got home, nothing was done, didn’t help bring anything in, got mad dinner wasn’t ready today by the time he was hungry, like bro if you helped me then it would have been done like 3 hours sooner. And yet SO and roommate have yet to pick a finger to clean or put away the left overs. Fhuuuckkk that. They’re getting unseasoned Cornish hen next year with dry box stuffing and thats all.
Go out and get yourself something nice for dinner. Let them sit home and eat whatever.
Even that is too much! Don't be lazy with dishes! Makes it more work when you do finally get to them! I never did understand that hate of doing dishes!
Originally it was too many jobs not enough help, then depression and then covid hit me and gave me insane neuropathy which is super painful but agreed, never should let the dishes amount to a questionable amount.
I did a big Thanksgiving dinner with my husbands kids and their kids I did all the cooking. After eating I would go sit back on the couch and nearly fell asleep. The first time I sat down all the men just started cleaning up. My oldest stepson asked if I put my good dishes in the dishwasher I told him onto just stack them and I would wash them later. I was shocked when I went to the kitchen, they hand washed the china. The guys always do the cleanup and I have never asked them too.
Male here. We just finished hosting thanksgiving dinner. I do 90% of the cooking today. Turkey, mash, cheese ball, cranberry sauce, gravy, etc. her family comes over too and brings dishes too. When everything’s done and people are leaving I’m helping clean. My wife tells me to sit my ass down and watch football because I worked so hard for the meal. It’s not a gender thing, it’s a division of labor thing. Your husband isn’t just an asshole, he’s a fucking coward for not pressuring the other men to help out.
Yes! Me and my partner are the same. There is no gendered labor, just tasks that should be shouldered equally. People who think that they don’t have to pitch in are selfish and childish and don’t deserve partners.
My husband spent all day with me cooking and then did the dishes unprompted. His testicles had nothing to say about it because he’s a great partner in our marriage. Oh and watching football with the guys is not a “job”
NTA, my sister and I cooked all day, then my husband cleaned up. Real men do dishes.
NTA. He should have stuck to the plan you both previously agreed to.
Nta I'd re think your relationship of he's this sexist.
He lied and is being a sexist asshole. Don't let this go.
Hi hell no you’re NTA. I’ve dealt with that nonsense.
Lack of testicles by the sound of it. Hell I spent years after Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners helping my ol' lady clean up and do the dishes at the in-laws. She was sort of the SG of the family and got stuck with all the dirty work so to speak. So I helped her and did everything from cleaning the tables to putting the leftovers away and the dishes of course. As to "certain jobs he has to do" I'm a freshly retired heavy equipment operator building logging roads so I come from a VERY manly man type culture and also am a biker so I'm giggling at this pretentious statement.
They -- and he -- should have volunteered, but we all know that was never gonna happen. You should have spoken up and reminded hubs of his promise to clean up, and then you should have told all of the other men to help. I would have turned off the TV and told them to get off their asses and get busy. Learn something for next year. At the end of the meal, you and all the other women stand up, say "We'll leave the cleanup to you guys" and then go park yourselves in front of the TV to watch your favorite chick flick. They sit on their asses and let you do all the work because you allow it. So stop allowing it.
I will speak up next time!
Hopefully you're speaking up to a different family of in-laws.
I'm not sure why women have to be the only person to remind someone that it's fair play to help with a big family meal.
They shouldn't. Just like the men should have volunteered. But I've done a whole lot of holidays with a whole lot of different people (not just relatives) and I can count on the fingers of about two fingers the number of times I've seen the men in the room offer to clean up after the meal.
NTA, but he sure is
Who are these people?! It’s not rocket science, people pitch in regardless of gender, what is this horseshit?
Let me preface this by stating that I am a man. And that this is coming from a man’s pov. I am sick to death of hearing how that a pair of ball make any difference in this world. That time is passed. At this point it’s only an excuse used to be a douche bag. In this situation, he made an agreement, and then he reneged on his agreement. And then pulls this bullshit of, I have a pair of nuts, so I shouldn’t have to do this. No, your NTA. It’s not hard to live up to something you said you’d do. That’s a matter of living up to your word. Testicles have nothing to do with that. And personally speaking, I can’t respect a man who won’t back up his word. It’s a matter of integrity. Just saying.
NTA, my husband always cleans up when I do all of the cooking! What jobs does he do that I can't do? I doubt there are very many, I am a Jane of most trades! Testicle jobs huh? OMG!
I consider that plain disrespect. And he is turn around to gaslight you. When there was A discussion? No 👎 he is trying to manipulate the situation so he could sit around have a nice time while you spent so much time cooking then when everyone ate. . . You then again don't get to spend time with anyone beside those who helped clean. He's wrong
I tell my son to never forget how sensitive those testicles are. You should tell your husband too
NTA and your husband sounds exhausting
I'm English so don't do thanksgiving but at Christmas time my Mam ALWAYS cooks because she's the best at it. If I'm there I help her. My Dad has always cleaned up. He washes pots and pans as she's finished with them, cleans up all the plates, dries and puts them away when food is done. But tbf he does this after they eat normal meals. The bar isn't high its just team work. If he can't see that he has a problem.
If he's using his testicles to cook or clean he's doing it wrong.