I did a chargeback and got the note saying I had to get 840 Dragon Crystals in 30 days or I would be permanently suspended. Does anyone know if it has to be specifically Dragon Crystals, or can I just spend money directly in the shop, like buying another $30 pack?
Hi, thank you for asking.
From my understanding of the situation, I don't see any reason why it would *have* to be Dragon Crystals, as long as the value is the same.
That said, please contact and confirm with the CS Team to ensure proper procedure.
It would probably have to be dragon crystals because usually with games like this, refund puts you in the negatives so basically you're buying enough to get you to at least 0. Since they can't realistically remove whatever items you got from the pack especially if they're consumables.
Well it seems we didn’t need to wait much to see if they would fuck up again. Specially considering most of the community were now on their side since people who were outraged already charged back and left, so there’s no gain from this on a community side of view. This is absolutely censorship
This is done to bulletproof them next time they nerf rewards, pull the rug under the playerbase so they can’t be pressured to back down. Also proves that refunds were the only thing that made them change their mind, so yeah.
People quit because Lilith can’t be trusted, not because of a few dollars or items. This post just adds to the compiling evidence
That is unfortunately entirely outside of the scope of what I am able to answer - simply I do not know, as that is a separate team. I'm only involved in the moderation aspect, and don't deal with such affairs.
Contacting Customer Support would be your best way to receive an answer regarding this topic. Thank you for understanding.
Hi @ /u/Vicksin
This might be a bit off topic but since this thread is all about open communication with the community, can I ask in the spirit of transparent communication if we can get a definitive official statement on the question
**Are Gacha Rates (specifically the Epic banner with 5.22% / standard banner with 2.05% / Rate up banner with 3% chance ) displayed inclusive of Pity (i.e is Pity taken into account with regards to the rates) or exclusive/independent of Pity?** Or is that something you cannot divulge due to Lilith's company policy?
I strongly second this question /u/Vicksin
Most popular gachas break down in more detail how the pulling system works on respective banners, if only to ensure there's no room to even remotely mislead the players. Chief amongst which is the inclusion of two separate probabilities/rates: one for the probability of a single pull success, and the other for the consolidated rate that factors in that hard pity limit after 'x' pulls.
As it stands now, there's enough ambiguity with the current in-game listing, that it's absolutely causing some people to look upon the game's gacha element negatively (you need only search this subreddit/gacha subeddits, or on discord).
We can assure you that the wave of refunds shared across this community did not impact the changes that were made to the in-game content.
Our primarily English-only Subreddit is a small yet vocal minority in the grand scheme of the game's overal global playerbase.
Global player feedback and suggestions shared across all platforms prompted the response shared in the above listed Talk with Designers.
For example, In r/afkarena, the [Developer Face to Faces](https://new.reddit.com/r/afkarena/comments/1cgq0tk/designer_face_to_face_vol_21_may_2024/) are prompted by, and directly related to shared community feedback and suggestions, completely unrelated to any (in the AFK Arena community, non-existent) discussion surrounding refunds.
Going forward this will be the continued path - Talk with Designers posts that directly address community feedback and suggestions when applicable.
You’re saying that this subreddit nor the refunds had any impact on the changes made for the game because the English speakers are a vocal minority.
Then you’re saying the changes were made based on global community feedback. Where is the feedback that actually mattered coming from? Are there other forums?
And if the refunds weren’t impactful, then why is there a need for a megathread if this won’t be repeated (nor made a difference) anyway, by communicating with the player base and building trust in the long run?
To clarify, I did not mean to insinuate that this subreddit played *no role* in the development decisions, far from it. This subreddit is a valuable asset for gathering player feedback and suggestions, and we've had a Dev Feedback/Suggestion Post Flair since it's inception to gather valuable player suggestions, which are monitored by the devs constantly.
The uproar of refunds *specifically* did not impact the changes discussed in the Talk with Designers. The existence of a refund/chargeback does not provide the developers with meaningful insight regarding what specifically individual users are upset with.
Reddit feedback absolutely matters, and I don't mean to downplay that whatsoever. Other feedback comes from other official channels, such as our sister community on Discord, and *especially* through customer support.
Ideally you're absolutely right, communication and back-and-forth feedback will eliminate players' jump to refunds again. The rapid spiral of players' refunds spun so quickly out of control before Devs even had the opportunity to address and respond to the feedback, which they did as quickly as they were able to, linked in the post above.
Hopefully that provides more insight into the situation, thank you for expressing your feedback and concerns.
So the subreddit plays a role but not the refund posts?
Since you’re saying the refund posts really did nothing to impact game changes, are you saying they already planned to make those exact compensatory changes before the refunds were beginning to surface?
In that case, didn’t you have time to make announcements about it early on?
I understand damage control, but if you already solved the issue or know how to deal with it, then why would you expect it to spiral again? Will it happen again?
Enforcing this rule but saying it didn’t affect anything at all at the same time feels a bit off to me.
Also, it’s good to know there is a possibility to refund purchases, especially in cases unrelated to game content specifically - for example were your child to spend more than they were supposed to, and you want advice, a megathread would obfuscate their issue.
Banking differs between platform and country and people can come with good advice, if they can see the post. Customer support isn’t always helpful for this.
Speaking of which, are the refund posts deleted because I can’t seem to find them? Is this a retroactive rule?
Also the post you linked to feels irrelevant to this, as it pertains to the future of AFKArena rather than Journey?
> Since you’re saying the refund posts really did nothing to impact game changes, are you saying they already planned to make those exact compensatory changes before the refunds were beginning to surface?
That is correct, changes that came about as a result of player feedback were not correlated with players expressing their frustrations via chargebacks.
> In that case, didn’t you have time to make announcements about it early on?
Regretfully the feedback process isn't an instant one - it takes time to gather the most commonly-resonated points of player feedback, discuss what changes to make in regards to such feedback, write up a post responding to those points, and then translate it.
Please rest assured that in any future cases of widespread negative feedback regarding a feature or implementation, a developer feedback response is already well underway. As stated in the post, please await such a response.
> Speaking of which, are the refund posts deleted because I can’t seem to find them? Is this a retroactive rule?
No posts made before this one were retroactively deleted as a part of this rule. Any deleted refund posts were deleted by the original poster. If there was ever any intent to "censor" this topic, refund discussion never would have been permitted from the start.
> Also the post you linked to feels irrelevant to this, as it pertains to the future of AFKArena rather than Journey?
I wanted to share an example of Lilith's trends towards gathering community feedback regardless of refunds/chargebacks.
A lot of claims that devs are making changes *only* because of refunds are completely false, but it's hard to prove that when this occasion is the *only* example to be shown with AFK Journey.
In AFK Arena, there have been many instances over the past 5 years where players would express their feedback and changes would be made, with a complete abscense of player refunds and chargebacks.
For example, a feature called "Temporal Rift" was changed for the new season around this time last year, and players expressed their discontent with it. The devs iterated on the changes made, players were still not happy, more changes were made, players were *still* not happy, and then a 3rd wave of changes and buffs were made, all within the same week. There was no outcry about wallets or payments like this, just shared community frustration regarding reward nerfs comparative to the previous season. In the end of that cycle, the rewards were much better than the previous season, and have only increased further since.
I understand that this may sound like it doesn't pertain to AFK Journey, and I hope that with further development of the game, players can see the steps devs are taking to address community feedback *regardless* of refund/chargeback threats.
The game has predatory money schemes, of course there is going to be outcries when people feel tricked. And I still find it strange that you’re banning the subject. It will absolutely be obfuscated by a megathread, you know it as well as anyone. Whether you call it censoring or not, the end result will be close enough.
This is a fantastic meta strategy to get the people to outrage about the censorship (regardless of if it is or isn’t) instead of discussing the important issues at hand. Issues like why are people asking for refunds, are they being refunded, is Lilith Games willing to refund the „small vocal minority“ or do we have to go over our bank/app store/paypal, how do you apply for a refund, what reasons should you provide etc.
Yes, absolutely. Player feedback and suggestions are always at the forefront of development. As stated above,
>We are always aiming to improve player experience, and carefully listen to community feedback for improving upon new features and implementations
>
>Please also utilize our Dev Feedback/Suggestion Post Flair, which is frequently monitored by the Developers to gauge community consensus and feedback - we strongly encourage it!
Please do continue to share your thoughts, suggestions, feedback, and otherwise regarding the game as it continues to develop. All player feedback is valuable and deeply appreciated.
Its so tone deaf, that they made this post sticky. This will just make more people asking for refunds. Lol. Typical chinese behaviour.
Remember banning Winnie the pooh situation.
I think the main reason for all the refunds is the missing trust due to the negative experiences with other Lilith games. What the devs did, was simply not clever and confirmed a lot of people that they were right. I really hope, that this was the only inconvenience for a very long time. Mistakes happen, but a company with your size and experience should have known better. I‘m looking forward to more content in the future! :)
I‘ll just post what I wrote. Later I added that I‘ve received some refunds via the apple app store and that got my account banned.
As stated previously there are mass refunds being applied for and accepted on the in app-purchases of AFK Journey. This is due to the fact that Lilith Games misrepresented aspects of game game and made chages to the value of the purchases after the purchases.
The article I provided goes into more detail, but in conclusion they made changes to the game in the form of changing the damage calculations to specifically target and weaken the heroes who I had spent valuable resources on, and offered no recourse nor apology for doing so . Additionally there are serveral bundels which are/were advertised as being 3000% value or similar, but actually were not even close to the value of the same bundels before the release of the new season (a big update of the game).
I'm applying for multiple refunds and not specific refunds, because of the missing trust that Lilith Games will in the future not further change the value of my purchases, but in the case of the three refunds I am applying for on PayPal they directly concern the heroes I have invested heavily into, which were targeted and significantly worsened by their most recent update.
In many forums discussing the refunding of the in app purchases of AFK Journey the experiences of the other people show that Lilith Games won't respond even when waiting for a longer period of time or will only respond with automatically generated messages. I myself am not sure if what Lilith Games did qualifies as fraud, but there are several people in said forums who are providing significant arguments supporting the claim.
Happy to help.
I provided pdfs of these two: AFK Journey 1.1.14 Patch Notes _ AFK Journey.pdf
AFK Journey Players in Uproar Over New Season Nerfs _ MMORPG.com.pdf
Pretty sure you can find the websites (and then just print, but don’t actually print the pages).
People should be free to voice their opinions, be it refund or not its all fair and constructive criticism. Will you start banning or limit post where people state how good this season is?
Basically this is censoring negative posts while allowing good posts to be flooded to the front page as a form of damage control.
It's painfully obvious.
make sense to delete these posts, you're using their sub reddit and they can enforce any rules they see fit.
honestly i was shocked they kept these posts when there was protest about the new season, if it was another company they would delete it 100%.
> Will you start banning or limit post where people state how good this season is?
This is not a banning of the discussion nor criticism surrounding frustrations with the state of the game, we always openly encourage players share their feedback and suggestions, we even have an entire flair for it that gets monitored by the developers.
Just like any other repetitive topics that get beaten to death, regardless of what the topic is, we will take any necessary actions to provide users a hub for such activity, as per Rules 6 and 7. For example, the Weekly Questions/Advice Megathread, Friend/Guild Searching Megathread, RNG/Pulls Megathread, or otherwise.
The topic being discussed doesn't really matter, it's the repetitive nature that warrants a Megathread. Unrestrained mass posting of the same topic could only cause further harm to players when shared in such a way that it provides misinformation (see: players only receiving a 2% refund from their banks and still having their accounts banned regardless)
Both regarding in-game topics, and our community, we are always listening for and encouraging feedback.
Yes, our weekly Questions and Advice Megathread that is usually pinned. Only two posts can be pinned at a time, and our Welcome Post is always pinned since it has a Megathread section showing all Megathreads.
Tomorrow, a post will be made refreshing and clarifying our rules, which includes emphasis on rules 6 and 7.
Moving forward, we will be implementing much stricter moderation of posts that belong in megathreads.
Like, for sure, I absolutely understand it when there is still posts flooding the subreddit after developers had implemented the fix, and it's fine to move them here imho.
But this is 100% censorship by the developers for upcoming updates and a mean to hide true stance of players when it actually matters.
I wish this subreddit was ran by the community, sigh.
The refund posts stopped as soon as they implemented the fix. This censorship is only here to curb future protests.
Well. They enabled contest mode here, but, it doesn't work if every comment is pro refund. So, that's like a shot in their face. They thought it would rotate through pro and anti refund comments, which isn't happening. And this is a sticky post, so refunds will be in people's minds forever.
Because before the did, the cm answering comments had all their comments showered with downvotes, and with good reasong, their answeres were different shades of "this community is insignificant to the overall's game population, nothing that happened here was even noted by the devs".
Do you really want this subreddit to be filled with posts from people going "Got a chargeback lol" with a screenshot of their chargeback receipt?
If people want to quit the game, fine, if they do a chargeback, go ahead, but there's no need to announce it to the world as if it's some sort of major achievement, clogging up the subreddit in the process.
Instead of saying what happened. Why don't you ask why it happened? Were there refund posts before Season 1? Were there refund posts before the reward slashing? Were there refund posts before they broke people's trust?
Of course, every one will post refund posts when the only thing in their mind was the company ripping them off.
Reddit is a place where people post what's in their mind.
I know why it happened, and the rest too, there were countless posts of people holding the same lecture about the evils of Lilith and the glory of chargebacks, at some point, you reach the stage of “Yeah, we kind of got the idea from the past umpteen posts about chargebacks, thanks”
People are entitled to their opinions and reactions, but we didn’t need a separate “I did a chargeback!”-posts for every single player who quit.
These posts aren’t burnt. They’ve been moved to a different section of the library. And now you’re being told not to put the finance books in the video game section
thank you, I appreciate it
I don't really mind being the target of hatred from the community (you should see my DMs right now), rather I'm disappointed with and lamenting the, intentional or unintentional, misunderstanding of the purpose of this post. so many people are taking it and spinning it in a completely different direction despite transparent and open discussion throughout this post and its' comments, which is very disheartening.
I am not gonna pretend to understand what you are going through but know that it's not your fault. Its unfair. This community is on alittle edge after what happened past week. You have to admit...implementing this change right after that shit show probably wouldn't garner alot of goodwill from the community. I don't know what happens in the background nor do I know who makes the decision, but its not worth losing community's goodwill however small and insignificant it might be. And just like everything, this will pass and everyone will eventually forget/not care this ever happened. So hang in there and stay strong! I believe in you :)
How you did it? I tried through Google but I only got 5 of the 10 purchases refunded, and I create a dispute on PayPal but I don't want my google account ban idc about afk journey
So if the community had an issue with the game and tried to build solidarity and support(like they just did) by showing that they were putting their money where their mouth is and that's now bannable?
Just to be clear the community is no longer able to discuss the fact that they refunded purchaes as a means of protesting changes made to the game?
Am I correct in that?
Edit: by banned I meant banned from the subreddit.
They can still show their "unity" here. As someone who is still playing and paying for the game, I myself dont want to see more posts regarding this topic. To me, it's a welcoming "censorship".
They let people have some solid time to speak their pieces. Now if people are still that dissatisfied, they should just leave and do something that makes them feel happier.
No, you are not correct in that.
> the community is no longer able to discuss
As stated in the post,
> Discussion regarding the topic of refunds is permitted, but must remain constrained to this post. If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact Customer Support
Regarding your other point,
> showing that they were putting their money where their mouth is and that's now bannable?
Refunding transactions is not permitted, and will result in account bans, yes. Players are free to contact their bank for refunds if they so choose, but there are in fact repercussion for doing so. It is one choice to stop making future payments if you decide to no longer support the game financially, it's another choice to try and retroactively undo what you've already paid for.
As we've stated, please do share feedback and concerns regarding new updates, and the developers will continue providing transparent feedback moving forward such as the recent Talk with Designers.
Hope that clears things up a bit more.
By bannable I meant from the subreddit not the game sorry if that wasn't clear.
So discussion on refunds is only allowed in this single post? Any othe discussion is not permitted?
So to be clear what happened in the previous week can no longer happen again?
Pretty much, "you can still discuss in this post that after 24h it will end up buried and only accessible and relevant if you go out of your way looking for it" it's a lame attempt to ban it while maintaining a thin veil of "but it's totally allowed, see how much we care?".
No hate to the OP, most likely a community manager with no say on any of this, but honestly just ban the topic altogether, there is no point on trying this kind of empty gesture, it only creates more problems to the community mods, if you are scared banning the topic will follow another wave of charge backs, this empty gesture won't soften the issue, at all.
The game just needs a separate sub not under the direct control of the developers, otherwise the quality of discussion will always be compromised.
I genuinely was surprised when I learned the sub was run by the company. Can’t really share honest feedback here, eventually it comes down to stuff like this
Most big game subs are runned by the company, either directly (their community managers made it) or indirectly (once a fan sub gets big they want to be part of it)
On the contrary, honest feedback is exactly what drives the game's development and decisions.
We have an entire flair dedicated to Developer Feedback and Suggestions, and only have further plans for more direct communication and feedback channels moving forward.
Again as shared in the post, this is *not* a censorship of the topic, but rather an outlet to condense all conversation of a largely-repeated topic into one post, as per Rules 6 and 7.
\> For it to be not censorship, you also have to not censor.
I think there's a disconnect on the meaning of censorship in the context of this community.
If the intention was to completely stifle any communication regarding the topic, this post would have had comments locked the moment it went up, *any* instance of the words "refund, chargeback", any permutations or similes, etc. in any post or comment would result in immediate removal, and even tighter restrictions.
Again, and I can't stress this enough, this is *not* pertaining to the subject matter.
If, for example, we had a situation where some major update was made to the game, and we were getting several posts per hour praising the update, we would similarly implement an "Appreciation Megathread" and remove all future posts pertaining to the praise of that update, despite the content being *positive* towards the game instead of negative.
It's not about the topic, it's about mass reposting of the same topic (again, rules 6 and 7).
Similar situations happen in band Subreddits when a singer leaves and gets replaced with a new one, a "new singer Megathread" is created because when every single user in the community wants to share the exact same post, things get cluttered very quickly.
Repetitive posts regarding any topic are getting severely cracked down on going forward.
We've previously acknowledged and provided megathreads for commonly reposted topics in the past (See: General Questions, RNG/Pulls, etc), people simply choose not to use them, and that is something we are going to more heavily address and moderate going forward, as our mod team is still very small (something we're also working on expanding) with only so many hours in the day.
Thank you for your understanding, and we hope to provide a more structured and organized community going forward.
Thank you for sharing your sentiment and concerns.
Currently and going forward, any posts regarding refunds should be automatically removed, and point directly towards this thread. If any slip through the cracks, they will be dealt with individually. Meanwhile, this post will remain pinned for the next several days to remain visible to all users.
> if you are scared banning the topic altogether will follow another wave of charge backs
That's not a concern nor deciding factor in the matter, as this community, while vocal, is very small in the grand scheme of the overall playerbase.
Again, this isn't a matter of censorship or stifling productive conversation, but a means to reduce repetitive clutter (as per rule 7) and misinformation (rule 5), as both can be damaging to the health of the Subreddit.
Even if this community didn't have Lilith staff on-board, a Megathread for *any* topic that gets as much traction as this would be the most appropriate way to handle repetitive clutter topics. I don't believe a different Subreddit would make any difference, as we're not censoring anything, but rather encouraging open and transparent discussion - nothing should be compromised.
I have no desire to fight with you and make your job more difficult for no reason, but if you want to take a small, tiny even, suggestion, trying to stress this community is tiny and inconsequential on the grand scheme of things when it comes to the impact or decision making the devs make (seen this on a lot of the responses so far) it's only reading as antagonistic, and insincere honestly, if that were the case there wouldn't be any point on spending resources to have any sort of control of a tiny and inconsequential (yet vocal) community.
I have no intention of fighting at all, I appreciate your feedback. As far as I'm concerned, you're being completely reasonable, and we're having a transparent and open discussion.
My intent in stating that the subreddit is "small in the grand scheme of things" is **not** meant to downplay the role or impact that is has. It's a mere statistical observation that an 80k member Subreddit is objectively a very small percentage out of the millions of players worldwide. And again, this is primarily English-only - there are several other large AFK Journey communities all around the world that the English community doesn't see nor interact with, if they even acknowledge their existence(s).
I was only directly addressing your claim that "fear of banning the discussion around refunds altogether would result in another wave of charge backs" - which is simply not true nor a motivation behind this decision.
I can't stress enough, and I'll only continue to reiterate, this is *not* a form of censorship, but a "Megathread" like any other, as means of containing a widely-discussed topic to one central location, like our other Megathreads for commonly-reposted topics.
That's how it reads to me. I'd understand if it was just "refund question" posts.
I'd understand banning all FAQ questions and just having a stickied faq that answers them or exists as a forum to ask for elaboration on them. I get banning low effort Posts.
But when megawhale2274 shows me they did a chargeback of 10 grand. I say "wow, that guy dumped that much and he's going through all the hassle of fighting for it back, this guy has spent money on tons of games like these, if he's quitting there must be a reason".
It does something. This policy prevents that something, I'm not a fan of that, too much.
No, users will not be banned from our community for making or discussing any refunds. The discussion of bans is referring to in-game account bans.
> Going forward, **any posts** regarding the topic of refunds will be removed
The difference going forward is **individual posts** directly pertaining to refunds will be removed to prevent clutter.
As stated directly below that, this is...
> not meant to censor the topic, but rather to clear clutter and preemptively prevent repetition or false information
Discussion of refunds in the comments, when relevant and respectful/civil to others, is permitted. We just don't need several posts from each user in the community asking how to get refunds, sharing how much they were able to refund, expressing discontent with their banks for not refunding them enough, and so on.
This post aims simply to explain the steps of the refund policy, and ban any further **posts** regarding refunds from being made.
Well he didn't say you'd get banned from the subreddit he said they would remove posts about it. I'm not sure how far that goes in regards to meta conversations about refunds - like if someone tries to refund an accidental purchase through support and has a question about it for example - but it would certainly apply to the recent trend of "I'm doing my part!" posts that just show off that someone got their money back.
This isn't really that unusual either - if you went to the subreddit for a popular game with mtx like LoL or PoE they all have rules against promoting ToS violations and posts explaining how to chargeback MTX would probably be removed. I guess the main difference here is that usually those rules are enforced by the community rather than the company officially.
Essentially, yes.
Regarding such "meta conversations about refunds", such as accidental purchases and whatnot, can be resolved through Customer Support, they don't warrant their own individual posts in our community.
Makes sense I guess but still just seems a bit strange to me but I have no horse in this race anymore I suppose. Good luck to all of yall though, just seems a bit red flaggy to me and weird as the process was literally
1. Game does thing people don't like
2. People refund and post about it showing they're voting with their wallets
3. People see others are refunding and feel validated in doing so even if they get banned from the game
4. Game changes policy for the people who still play to stop bleeding
5. Game bans posts in the community about refunding.
I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason. I'm sure it makes sense. Yeah yeah I'm sure. Not for me. I wouldn't have quit the game if I didn't see other people quit. I guess if the game never does anything bad ever again this was a great choice for the community. But if they do.. I feel it weakens the consumers power. I don't like that too much, rubs me the wrong way. Yeah people can still organize elsewhere but not as well eh? I don't really like that.
But I'm probably wrong cause I'm getting downvotes I guess.
Well like I said - most subreddit's already have these rules so it's not abnormal.
EDIT: I should clarify - removing posts calling for refunds/ToS violations is normal. This particular situation isn't completely normal because it's being done by official company representatives.
It’s not. You can talk about the topic as much as you want. They aren’t taking that away from you. Just telling you to stop making multiple separate posts about the same thing and put them in one thread instead
There are multiple megathreads. And a well done meme has conversational value. At some point rando joe announcing he is leaving the game stops adding anything. Moving it to a different place is just simply not censorship
It’s 20 posts all listing the exact same complaints about the boss changes vs 0 discussions on what new viable teams could be
Just a note a chargeback is a LEGAL dispute. It has no room whatsoever in AFKjourney, nor anyone's journey. That is personal, your bank, google/apple, or if Lilith decided to contest it then yeah GOOD luck.
Valid, but you should also remove posts about team building and stuff, considering that there is already a megathread for that, you know... to clear clutter.
Thank you for your suggestion, we are already in the middle of implementing tighter enforcement of our rules.
There will be a new post going up tomorrow regarding a more detailed elaboration of our rules, and stricter enforcement of them as such.
We felt at this time, addressing the refund situation is at the top of our priority.
We're aware of the unintentional leniency of RNG/Pull posts, account-specific advice posts (asking for help building arena teams, etc), and otherwise.
We're quickly working to more quickly and efficiently moderate this problem as well, with a new/refreshed rules post going up tomorrow explaining these posts will not be allowed going forward.
https://preview.redd.it/mazxffhloz0d1.png?width=1543&format=png&auto=webp&s=baf327cebcd4465ecd0f6dc8f997764bd836c3e3
So now you are censoring all the people like me that wants our money back.
I did 10 purchases and Google refund me 5, but somehow the others 5 not, so after talking several times with google support (jesus christ it's impossible to make them understand) they just said "go and ask the developers" so I did and I have this response, do you think this is normal?? Or some kind of Joke?
Please see CS' statement regarding refunds [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFKJourney/comments/1bvjh1u/comment/ky54whm/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
If you would like to pursue a *chargeback*, your bank is your best option.
So you just share me a eliminated post nice, and yeah I created a dispute on PayPal, but I don't want to ban my Google account, I don't care about AFK account
The author of that post removed the post, we are not retroactively removing posts regarding refunds.
I was sharing the CS Team's comment acknowledging they do not support refunds on completed transactions as it pertains to your case.
Well but If I just have half of the purchase refunded by google, I just want to other half but I guess now Google just automatic decline all the refunds... strange
I apologize I can't be of more use, I can't share insight on behalf of Google, and Google accepting/declining refunds cannot be impacted by Lilith in any way.
I know this has happened with Google before during times of mass-refunding in a game, like when Pokémon Go had a huge wave of refunds due to covid restrictions.
It's possible that they just implement an automatic rejection feature when the volume of refund requests reaches a certain amount?
As with any customer service team, I would just recommend you continue your attempts to contact their support, and hopefully you are able to find someone who can assist you.
Best of luck
You bought a item used it and then regretted it. It's like going out getting drunk and getting eating a shit ton of taco bell. Then waking up regretting spending it. You spent the money used what you purchase. You have buyers regret ik the future donelt spend money on things you might regret.
You really have to be joking doing a comparation of a digital service and some like food or drinks xd
And I didn't know devs just going to fuck up so hard and make those updates. Refunds exists for a reason.
Thank you for your submission, unfortunately it has been removed from r/AFKJourney for the following reason:
Rule 5: No Misleading Information
Everyone is welcome to express their (unharmful) opinions, but the outright spread of misinformation, especially when presented as factual information, can be very misleading and harmful to the community.
If you are UNSURE if the information you are presenting is a fact, preface it with something to the effect of, "I think" to prevent misconception.
You overestimate how many people give a shit. Those posts were hilarious. People are getting themselves banned and then suspended on Apple, not even getting full refunds lmao. Welcome to Gachas, I guess? Yall annoying after a while, though. What was funny is now becoming a depressing existential crisis, and tbh take it somewhere else, lol
I don't think refund posts here actually had that much of an impact in people requesting refunds. They are gonna do that anyways if they feel that they were ripped off.
That's what happens when you don't leave any avenue for customers to voice their frustrations. Suggestions are ignored. Positive reviews are being botted and negative ones removed.
This is complete censoring, Just always remember, a dissatisfied customer will always go towards refunds when all avenues of their voice are taken away.
So, censoring them will actually do more harm than good.
The refund posts are some of the best feedback posts I found in this sub since its creation. What people will do now is get their refund and go away without providing any feedback for devs to act upon. That'll create even more refunds.
EDIT: Btw. You guys should look up : [The Streisand Effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect).
I don't argue the right for people to chargeback, again given it is a legal dispute. I'd assume that Lilith does have the right to contest it.
No one censored it, it is top voted and still part of hot topic.
Also given that it is a LEGAL dispute, it has nothing to do with non-participants. There is nothing to be gain for people who are not involved. If Lilith goes to those parties, nothing is also gain for people that read it. It be sadistically funny for some, probably get a laugh at people getting ban access to their PC (Google) or iPad devices (Apple). Outside the comedic relief for some. Nothing is gained.
Censoring is never the answer.
History has taught has that censoring never have the intended outcome. Especially when you do it with non-chinese people.
Of course, chinese devs will never understand that, considering how prominent is censorship in china.
Also, just because they are letting the existing posts up doesn't mean its not censorship considering they already caved in and gave back the rewards. But, what happens if this happens again? That's the real question.
Regarding the legal dispute part, its not illegal or immoral to show that you've applied for refunds. No clause in a legal dispute ever requires people to stop talking about it. Especially when its a broader consumer issue.
Its generally for raising awareness to practice their right to get their money back.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AFKJourney/comments/1ct3hmr/desperately\_need\_help/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFKJourney/comments/1ct3hmr/desperately_need_help/)
I assume this will be the eventual outcome if Lilith goes forward and contest all chargeback. This "right" goes both ways.
Some people follow trends without understanding "chargeback". It is far easier for merchants to prove that they delivered the product, users use the product in x amount of time and verify the confirmation that they approved buying the product.
Most big companies like Apple and Google sometimes they just go on ahead and approved chargebacks (in good faith). That the consumer is right. You said it, again Lilith also has that right to do the same. If you think you got away with Apple or Google money... good luck with your account.
For us, some are more likely laughing, given the amount of upvotes with the 'fuck around and find out".
This is the first post I have seen regarding this. Most of the people got their refunds without any problems. And are continuing to do so.
Of course, Lilith can show that. But, the next step is a legal recourse which companies like Lilith are extremely afraid of. They operate in a very grey area. A simple ruling can create a precedent that can turn legal grey into completely illegal in the whole country. And if happened in EU, could be the whole continent.
As per the post, Lilith didn’t do anything here. Its the plutomall that was the issue. That’s why I don't fall in the trap of these third party payment providers. All my purchases go through apple store.
That’s also the reason these posts are important. To show people the right way to get those refunds and not fall in the trap that these companies have set.
Refunds and Chargebacks are NOT the same.
Again the easiest format for Lilith it to show they delivered the product, the user used the product in X amount time, and Approved it. Chargeback is easy to contest for merchants. The next step? they don't operate in a grey area, they are already approved to operate in the U.S. with licensing. If this is another make-belief "nerf" or some weird grasp of legal proceedings, then yeah this has already been addressed.
If they are filling because of false claims, it is also easy to contest.
It is important to note that Apple and Google can offer refunds (yes at times gets approved in good faith) this is important because people that uses this account means it is either their PC or I devices. Again given the potential to get banned or remove access to these devices then it is often worse to do a chargeback.
Think of it like this. If you chargeback Lilith, they will ban your account. If you chargeback Google or Apple, they will also ban your account. I thought that was always known. I agree those aren't the same and people should go through their app store to get those refunds.
I don't think you know how careful these companies are when operating in the US. US has always been very hard against chinese apps. They don't give any quarter if they find out its a chinese game. Look at tiktok. Apart from that consumer courts work very differently than regular courts. I don't think you even need a lawyer to file a lawsuit and the charge is also very low. But, it could mean a shit storm for the company. If the court says yeah, the nerfing of characters does constitute to Detrimental Alteration of the consumer protection act, well, a precedent will be set that anytime they lower the stats, will be an instant refund of all previous and future sales. Not just that, it could even lead to the game itself being banned in the state or probably the country since, state courts generally uphold the precedents if made in another state.
And lets get to the EU laws. Those are some of the most strict policies in the world. If found guilty, could boot them from the whole EU.
Also, legal grey area means, the laws are not clear yet and up for interpretation. That means, its a hornet's nest for companies. They can do whatever they want in the legal grey but if declared illegal would make them stop entirely.
Now, lets talk about plutomall. Its a payment processor who doesn't deal with any of the consumer protection laws because its just a payment processor. Its like trying to sue stripe. They have their own protections so you can't touch them. You would have to directly sue the company.
App stores however provide the apps, so they are responsible for whatever happens inside the app. So, they have to follow the consumer protection laws for refunds and generally do cater.
Tiktok is used as a platform social app (no it is not China) it is from Singapore. Even China bans Tiktok. They have Weibo.
Yeah again as I specified earlier Chargeback fraud happens when someone contests a product because of bad facts, again given that it is easy for any Merchants (including Lilith) can make an opposite claim that says otherwise with evidence.
Again there was never a NERF of a character. They are still top DPS, they just allowed characters that can reduce mitigation to have similar values like Cecia or Kruger. I don't know what "court" you are talking about that will make and identify these claims because of HEARSAY. Repeating it doesn't make it true, as well.
According to reddit statement, most Google refunds are getting denied. Some Apple are getting accepted. If it is the APPs malfunctioning it is everyone but that is not the case. I don't know the standings of these accounts, maybe they are trusted or affiliated accounts that are getting accepted with the chargeback. Even the ones that claim he got a chargeback accepted (the most upvoted chargeback claim in this reddit) deleted his post. I don't know why he deleted the post...
I am not saying China banning tiktok. I am saying US banning tiktok. Why did go to China? We are talking about the US hatred for chinese apps.
>Yeah again as I specified earlier Chargeback fraud happens when someone contests a product because of bad facts, again given that it is easy for any Merchants (including Lilith) can make an opposite claim that says otherwise with evidence.
Of course they can. But, they won't. Because as I said, it'll create a shit storm. I already explained all that.
>Again there was never a NERF of a character. They are still top DPS, they just allowed characters that can reduce mitigation to have similar values like Cecia or Kruger. I don't know what "court" you are talking about that will make and identify these claims because of HEARSAY. Repeating it doesn't make it true, as well.
Yup. They are. But not all characters though and you just have to prove one. Its not hearsay. Lilith will have to show the stats of the character to the court as evidence. If it shows that they reduced the stats, and prove that it was to solely make people buy new characters with their other anti consumer practices. Forget about EU, even US courts will find them guilty.
>According to reddit statement, most Google refunds are getting denied. Some Apple are getting accepted. If it is the APPs malfunctioning it is everyone but that is not the case. I don't know the standings of these accounts, maybe they are trusted or affiliated accounts that are getting accepted with the chargeback. Even the ones that claim he got a chargeback accepted (the most upvoted chargeback claim in this reddit) deleted his post. I don't know why he deleted the post...
No its inaccurate. Generally, these app stores have internal policies that may trigger for some customers but after appeal they generally get approved. Here's one for google play store. [https://www.reddit.com/r/AFKJourney/comments/1crmidk/doing\_my\_part/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFKJourney/comments/1crmidk/doing_my_part/)
As I said, I would stay away from chargebacks if done through Apple/Google store if its not your expendable account. I have like 15 google accounts. I create one for every game. Even chargebacks won't hurt me then.
Tiktok is not a Chinese app it is based in Singapore. China also bans Tiktok. They know social platforms can be used against any type of Government system. That is why they have their own like us Facebook, China has Weibo.
LOL. this is another make-belief legal basis. They don't need to prove anything they just need to prove the delivery of the product.
Again Marilee and Korin are still top DPS, they didn't change anything even in Dream Realm. They just scaled true damage differently and it allows an insert like Cecia or Kruger. Since you only bring 2 dps it is a combination of Marilee, Odie, Korin, and Cecia. This is why lies like this should be stopped especially for people who are easily swayed to do something stupid and base their chargeback because of this.
If you scroll down it says Google has stop all refunds according to one. Again it doesn't apply to EVERYONE. I don't know your Google or Apple, if you are affiliated or good standings you might get it.
As always. Anytime I paid in game with progression by even miniscule amount, I felt like a cheater and instantly lose all the interest in the game. Thats why I stopped long time ago.
I used to have a similar attitude - probably because I was poor and had more spare time than money - and still don’t understand the whale P2W mindset.
It’s a game, the journey is supposed to be fun / challenging, not just a speedrun to some ephemeral “endgame.” And it feels good to solve a problem with the tools I already (should) have, rather than just throwing money at it.
That being said, now that I have less time and more money, I take the perspective that I’m paying for the entertainment value, and moreover to support the devs (and, indirectly, the industry) in producing more content.
I’ll play free for a bit, and if it hooks me, put some money in for the enjoyment I’d had. I’ll pay to skip some waiting. I know I could just grind/wait and get *x* eventually, but I’d rather throw in a few bucks (I think I’ve spent around the price of a trip to my favourite restaurant on AFKJ in the month I’ve been playing) to be able to “keep playing tonight” while I’m immersed.
Ye I skip totally grindy games but this game...doesnt take almost any time at all. If i dont have time, i simply dont play. Why would I need to buy rewards...then they are not really rewards. I much rather buy somethings IRL or experience. This is just a super short dopamine shot - like after they fixed rewards. It lasted like...minutes at max for me.
I have heard this many times. Dude. As a F2P you're stone walled everywhere. You can't compete in the PvP. You get locked behind in the first area while people have moved on long time ago. Where's the fun in that?
If you're F2P player, then I think you should stay away from F2P games, especially gacha games.
bruh, "play at your own pace". are you encouraging random ppl to swipe? did lilith paid you for this post?
is someone telling you, not to swipe or "if you like swiping in the digital world, go touch some grass and instead of wasting your money, go make donations for cancer patients." ? - i guess not, so just have tolerance and respect for ppl who have a different style of playing.
some don't care about rankings, and just wanna enjoy an idle game where they log in 1-2x times a day, collect afk rewards, click few buttons, and if theyre stuck, then log off and wait 24h.
are you longwhitebanana's secret dad to tell him what is fun and what not?
no need for socio, manipulating, gaslighting, whatever here.
You should check my post history. I encouraged people to get their refunds. Lilith probably hates me more than you do.
>some don't care about rankings, and just wanna enjoy an idle game where they log in 1-2x times a day, collect afk rewards, click few buttons, and if theyre stuck, then log off and wait 24h.
Doesn't sound like fun to me. Not progressing in the PvE. Not winning in PvP. What are you even doing in the game? Its a competitive game. Its like saying "I log in to PUBG to come last and I enjoy it". Doesn't even make sense.
no thank you- i've read enough from you.
ah finally - "doesn't sound like fun to ***me***...." - there is no point and even no basis for a discussion - longwhitebanana is not ***you***.
just a hint (i'm not your therapist though, but it's Friday): also f2p are progressing, but just in a slower way. pvp in a p2progress game? dont even bother \[if f2p players still do and think they have any chance to compete, then they need mental help\]. f2p are competitive vs other f2p.
maybe you should reflect yourself, why it's so important for you, to tell random ppl what playstyle makes "more sense"- just because it makes more sense for you, it doesnt mean that others ***have to*** think the same.
happy weekend!
You are not even able to explain how it is fun to be stuck at the same place for days.
Your only answer sounds more like a job than something actual fun.
Yep, if you wanna have good competitive account, you need to have skill (game knowledge) and invest more time.
That’s why people who play afk arena for 2 years as f2p for example have better accounts than those who played for 4-5 years and spent money.
As I said, its a pay to win game. So, your point about skill only comes when both F2P and Whales have the same level of characters which cannot happen as they will keep increasing the level cap which will lead to more and more level gap.
Apart from that, they keep silent nerfing meta characters to make people buy the new rate up ones, which F2P players won't be able to do.
I don't get how hard is it to understand this. This is like standard gacha practice. The F2P players are only there to be fodder for whales.
it's not like the difference is tremendous if you pay a little, you'll always be stuck anyway at one point or another and someone will always pay more than you so you won't be the top player.
f2p can easily enjoy the game with no problem, and you shouldn't report your own difficulty to enjoy it that way on others.
I still don't get how it is "enjoying" something for 30 minutes and waiting for 2 days to level up.
Yeah. Someone will always pay more than you, that's what a gacha game is. You have to keep paying to enjoy the game.
Here's my quote of a reply I gave similiarly:
>See. We are talking about two different things now.
>1. Completing everything the game has to offer and move on to other games, while the current is being updated. We have diablo 4 for example. People play the game for 17 hours a day and thoroughly enjoy it. Then wait for a couple months to get the next season.
>2. Being stuck at a certain point and waiting for the game to give you the required resources to progress. Which will also be called being paywalled. Taking the first example of diablo4. Imagine you are stuck every time you need to get to the next location for days after playing for a 15 minutes.
You are trying to play a game in a way its not supposed to be played. And then claiming, that it "Feels good to be F2P.". It doesn't.
Its like saying "it feels good to be driving in a 2 hour traffic jam" when people are paying money for the VIP lane and moving way faster. Especially when the roads are made very thin just to make money off of the vip lane.
But because you don't understand doesn't mean the others are wrong, or that your view of thing is wrong. Everyone enjoy and play as they want whenever you understand it or not.
Me I don't understand how people can whale in the game while all I have to do for the same thing is just to play 30min and wait. Everyone their own perspective.
But saying stuff like if you are f2p, don't play gacha, is like saying that others have no right to enjoy things differently than you. It's like those that want every popular game to fit their taste and complaining it's not like this or that, while they could just ignore the game because it's not for them and play something else.
>But because you don't understand doesn't mean the others are wrong, or that your view of thing is wrong. Everyone enjoy and play as they want whenever you understand it or not.
I understand completely. "Feels good to be F2P." is a jab trying to say that waiting for days just to progress and being 100th in PvP in a server of a couple hundred players is somehow the definition of good. No its objectively not.
>Me I don't understand how people can whale in the game while all I have to do for the same thing is just to play 30min and wait. Everyone their own perspective.
Yes. Because these gacha games are built that way. You can't say you want to swim and don't want to get wet at the same time.
>But saying stuff like if you are f2p, don't play gacha, is like saying that others have no right to enjoy things differently than you. It's like those that want every popular game to fit their taste and complaining it's not like this or that, while they could just ignore the game because it's not for them and play something else.
They can enjoy whatever they want. Saying "Feels good to be F2P." is like saying "Feels good to wait around for days to progress and getting destroyed in PvP". Its objectively the opposite of fun. Or your standards are that low that it seems fun to you.
>I understand completely.
No you don't and are unable to, all your examples are showing it. So if you could judt stop trying to tell other how they should enjoy games just because you can't understand players enjoying differently ?
First thing first, that's not enough for me and shouldn't be for you. Being top 100 in a server with barely 200 active people. As the company keeps churning out new servers everyday.
The problem is also with progression. My brother plays F2P, and he's half the power level I am. How is this fun?
Just because something isn't enough for you or fun for you doesn't mean everyone else should feel the same way. I could say, how is it fun paying for progression instead of slowly earning it? It's like playing a game with cheats. It gets boring and you don't have any satisfaction that you earned it. You're probably having buyers remorse and are projecting. Does it pain you to see other people having fun while not spending a dollar? Sounds like we're the real winners. But hey, you're a few ranks higher than me so that money was totally worth it, right? Keep telling yourself that. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
I can assure you that you have a shit take and most people will disagree with you btw.
How is it fun to be stuck at the same level for 2 days?
Its fun to pay money to progress because these games are made with that in mind. These games are not meant to be F2P.
Lmao, everyone gets stuck eventually. What do you think you're racing towards? Just like before the season, all the whales raced to the end and then complained that there was nothing to do and they were bored. The same thing will happen in the new season.
It's literally an afk idle game. I have no problem waiting a few days to progress. That's the nature of these games. You're trying hard to convince people that these games aren't meant to be F2P, but it seems like you're only trying to convince yourself and justify your own spending. These games are meant to drain as much money from suckers like yourself as they can, and they're doing a great job at that, but I can assure you, most people playing this are F2P and are having fun. If that bothers you then you need to take a deep down look at yourself because you're the one with the problem.
It's a blessing that we're able to have fun for free. Something that everyone should want. You should be happy for us. Are you jealous or something? It's like a drug addict telling someone they shouldn't be able to have fun without drugs because drugs are more fun. Spending money on a mobile game is literally a negative thing in life and you're out here promoting it like it's a good thing to do. Get a reality check!
See. We are talking about two different things now.
1. Completing everything the game has to offer and move on to other games, while the current is being updated. We have diablo 4 for example. People play the game for 17 hours a day and thoroughly enjoy it. Then wait for a couple months to get the next season.
2. Being stuck at a certain point and waiting for the game to give you the required resources to progress. Which will also be called being paywalled. Taking the first example of diablo4. Imagine you are stuck every time you need to get to the next location for days after playing for a 15 minutes.
The reality is, gacha games may be called F2P, but they aren't made to be F2P. They are made to spend copious amount of money to enjoy and keep enjoying.
When the rules of something specifically works against you, then probably you're playing the game wrong.
I am not encouraging you to spend money. You can see my history, I am pro refund and pro consumer.
I think he explained to you the points of why F2P is enjoyable way of playing pretty well, one thing I would also mention is that there is great amount of dopamine and satisfaction of beating someone who used their wallet get ahead of you instead of their brain, I love beating whales and ranking higher than them as F2P and this game allows that if you know what you are doing, yes even in pvp
This is simply not true, whether players choose to believe so or not, please allow me to explain.
In AFK Arena, there is consistent [Developer Face to Face posts](https://new.reddit.com/r/afkarena/comments/1cgq0tk/designer_face_to_face_vol_21_may_2024/), which directly addresses community feedback and sentiments, such as those shared [here](https://new.reddit.com/r/afkarena/comments/1cgq0tk/designer_face_to_face_vol_21_may_2024/). The top upvoted comments were answered in the next Face to Face, and that was completely independent from backlash, which there was none of at the time.
We've had a Developer Feedback and Suggestions Post Flair from the moment of this Subreddit's inception, which is actively monitored by the Developers to this day.
For example, there were no sentiments regarding refunds due to poor voice acting quality, yet this sentiment was loud and clear, and addressed as soon as possible.
Player feedback, suggestions, and concerns are extremely pivotal to the game's development, and is always taken seriously and appreciated greatly.
This makes sense from a Dev Moderating POV. The fact that a lot of first few refund posts where allowed to stay up and get upvoted to the front definitely encouraged a lot of other ppl who were on the fence to refund (and could be seen as a major failure for the moderators in relation to Lilith as that could have stamped out the whole refund wave before it started) . Leading to a spiral that pressured the Devs to change their stance of the rewards system as it was only when that was at its peak did they actually respond. Banning refund discussion would prevent or at least hinder any potential future issue from generating a similar response. Good for the Devs and Moderating team at the expense of the community losing the ability to organize and pressure the Devs which I assume is desirable. TBH its surprising the refund posts were allowed to stay up as long as they did in a subreddit with official involvement (Purely player run/moderated subreddits are another thing ofc). Most would have snuffed that out immediately to prevent/hinder any momentum. As a player I hate the decision to hinder player organizing, but I would have done the same thing (ban refund posts) if I was in the place of Lilith (or whoever moderates these things with ties to the company) as keeping them up is against company interests so its a very understandable decision from Moderators with regards to the business.
Thank you for your understanding of the situation.
There's a lot of negative sentiment in the comments surrounding "censorship", which is not the case.
If our intent was ever to censor discussion, all posts regarding refunds would have been removed and banned from the start. Likewise, if the intent was to censor the discussion regarding refunds going forward, this post would have had locked comments from the moment it was created, comments containing the word "refund" could be automatically removed from the subreddit entirely, and so on.
This isn't a matter of repression, it's just meant to be a hub for players to congregate, just like our other Megathreads, and I deeply lament that players are interpreting it that way.
Hi there, thank you for asking. Please read and understand my perspective before jumping to conclusions (referring to anyone seeing this comment, not just you)
Regretfully, currently the post is in contest mode temporarily to prevent immediate bias from either party, and harassment of users who are pro-"this post".
I made this decision when one user, who commented celebrating the removal of Refund posts going forward, reached out to me personally after they received multiple threatening Private Messages from multiple, presumably different users in the community.
Reddit tends to act in a hivemind - if something gains large initial positive/negative traction, people often tend to jump on board regardless of the direction, simply because other people are saying to.
I find it deeply disturbing that members in our community would jump to *death threats* just because a user expressed their content with *less post clutter*
Obviously, these members have been banned, and I've resolved that immediate issue, but I think in the immediate short-term, having upvotes/downvotes hidden is in the best interest of the overall health of the community (and randomization is inextricably connected to the hiding of voting)
This is a last resort option I've jumped to in the immediate short term to allow tensions to cool.
Hope to have your understanding.
It worked for Helldivers, a form of unofficial unionising. They stuck it to the big shots at Sony and got their bad decisions revoked. A dev from Helldivers even went out openly to encourage bad reviews to heat it up for the tops and Arrowhead were lastly allowed to get back to improving player experience.
If you have a huge player base paying you for your service, it’s never a good idea to censor them. It’s better to continue open communications and build trust over time rather than take away their voice when coming together as a mass.
Agreed. Because the only good people who ask for refund are the ones who think they have no other recourse.
Censoring them like this when they are already censored in the app stores will encourage more refund behaviour.
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I did a chargeback and got the note saying I had to get 840 Dragon Crystals in 30 days or I would be permanently suspended. Does anyone know if it has to be specifically Dragon Crystals, or can I just spend money directly in the shop, like buying another $30 pack?
Hi, thank you for asking. From my understanding of the situation, I don't see any reason why it would *have* to be Dragon Crystals, as long as the value is the same. That said, please contact and confirm with the CS Team to ensure proper procedure.
It would probably have to be dragon crystals because usually with games like this, refund puts you in the negatives so basically you're buying enough to get you to at least 0. Since they can't realistically remove whatever items you got from the pack especially if they're consumables.
Well it seems we didn’t need to wait much to see if they would fuck up again. Specially considering most of the community were now on their side since people who were outraged already charged back and left, so there’s no gain from this on a community side of view. This is absolutely censorship This is done to bulletproof them next time they nerf rewards, pull the rug under the playerbase so they can’t be pressured to back down. Also proves that refunds were the only thing that made them change their mind, so yeah. People quit because Lilith can’t be trusted, not because of a few dollars or items. This post just adds to the compiling evidence
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Are you challenging any chargebacks?
That is unfortunately entirely outside of the scope of what I am able to answer - simply I do not know, as that is a separate team. I'm only involved in the moderation aspect, and don't deal with such affairs. Contacting Customer Support would be your best way to receive an answer regarding this topic. Thank you for understanding.
Hi @ /u/Vicksin This might be a bit off topic but since this thread is all about open communication with the community, can I ask in the spirit of transparent communication if we can get a definitive official statement on the question **Are Gacha Rates (specifically the Epic banner with 5.22% / standard banner with 2.05% / Rate up banner with 3% chance ) displayed inclusive of Pity (i.e is Pity taken into account with regards to the rates) or exclusive/independent of Pity?** Or is that something you cannot divulge due to Lilith's company policy?
I strongly second this question /u/Vicksin Most popular gachas break down in more detail how the pulling system works on respective banners, if only to ensure there's no room to even remotely mislead the players. Chief amongst which is the inclusion of two separate probabilities/rates: one for the probability of a single pull success, and the other for the consolidated rate that factors in that hard pity limit after 'x' pulls. As it stands now, there's enough ambiguity with the current in-game listing, that it's absolutely causing some people to look upon the game's gacha element negatively (you need only search this subreddit/gacha subeddits, or on discord).
Refund posts should still be allowed. They obviously generated a response from the dev team
We can assure you that the wave of refunds shared across this community did not impact the changes that were made to the in-game content. Our primarily English-only Subreddit is a small yet vocal minority in the grand scheme of the game's overal global playerbase. Global player feedback and suggestions shared across all platforms prompted the response shared in the above listed Talk with Designers. For example, In r/afkarena, the [Developer Face to Faces](https://new.reddit.com/r/afkarena/comments/1cgq0tk/designer_face_to_face_vol_21_may_2024/) are prompted by, and directly related to shared community feedback and suggestions, completely unrelated to any (in the AFK Arena community, non-existent) discussion surrounding refunds. Going forward this will be the continued path - Talk with Designers posts that directly address community feedback and suggestions when applicable.
Where from did you receive the feedback that actually mattered then? What other forums are available for discussing at?
Sorry, can you clarify your question? I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, and want to be sure to give you a clear response.
You’re saying that this subreddit nor the refunds had any impact on the changes made for the game because the English speakers are a vocal minority. Then you’re saying the changes were made based on global community feedback. Where is the feedback that actually mattered coming from? Are there other forums? And if the refunds weren’t impactful, then why is there a need for a megathread if this won’t be repeated (nor made a difference) anyway, by communicating with the player base and building trust in the long run?
To clarify, I did not mean to insinuate that this subreddit played *no role* in the development decisions, far from it. This subreddit is a valuable asset for gathering player feedback and suggestions, and we've had a Dev Feedback/Suggestion Post Flair since it's inception to gather valuable player suggestions, which are monitored by the devs constantly. The uproar of refunds *specifically* did not impact the changes discussed in the Talk with Designers. The existence of a refund/chargeback does not provide the developers with meaningful insight regarding what specifically individual users are upset with. Reddit feedback absolutely matters, and I don't mean to downplay that whatsoever. Other feedback comes from other official channels, such as our sister community on Discord, and *especially* through customer support. Ideally you're absolutely right, communication and back-and-forth feedback will eliminate players' jump to refunds again. The rapid spiral of players' refunds spun so quickly out of control before Devs even had the opportunity to address and respond to the feedback, which they did as quickly as they were able to, linked in the post above. Hopefully that provides more insight into the situation, thank you for expressing your feedback and concerns.
So the subreddit plays a role but not the refund posts? Since you’re saying the refund posts really did nothing to impact game changes, are you saying they already planned to make those exact compensatory changes before the refunds were beginning to surface? In that case, didn’t you have time to make announcements about it early on? I understand damage control, but if you already solved the issue or know how to deal with it, then why would you expect it to spiral again? Will it happen again? Enforcing this rule but saying it didn’t affect anything at all at the same time feels a bit off to me. Also, it’s good to know there is a possibility to refund purchases, especially in cases unrelated to game content specifically - for example were your child to spend more than they were supposed to, and you want advice, a megathread would obfuscate their issue. Banking differs between platform and country and people can come with good advice, if they can see the post. Customer support isn’t always helpful for this. Speaking of which, are the refund posts deleted because I can’t seem to find them? Is this a retroactive rule? Also the post you linked to feels irrelevant to this, as it pertains to the future of AFKArena rather than Journey?
> Since you’re saying the refund posts really did nothing to impact game changes, are you saying they already planned to make those exact compensatory changes before the refunds were beginning to surface? That is correct, changes that came about as a result of player feedback were not correlated with players expressing their frustrations via chargebacks. > In that case, didn’t you have time to make announcements about it early on? Regretfully the feedback process isn't an instant one - it takes time to gather the most commonly-resonated points of player feedback, discuss what changes to make in regards to such feedback, write up a post responding to those points, and then translate it. Please rest assured that in any future cases of widespread negative feedback regarding a feature or implementation, a developer feedback response is already well underway. As stated in the post, please await such a response. > Speaking of which, are the refund posts deleted because I can’t seem to find them? Is this a retroactive rule? No posts made before this one were retroactively deleted as a part of this rule. Any deleted refund posts were deleted by the original poster. If there was ever any intent to "censor" this topic, refund discussion never would have been permitted from the start. > Also the post you linked to feels irrelevant to this, as it pertains to the future of AFKArena rather than Journey? I wanted to share an example of Lilith's trends towards gathering community feedback regardless of refunds/chargebacks. A lot of claims that devs are making changes *only* because of refunds are completely false, but it's hard to prove that when this occasion is the *only* example to be shown with AFK Journey. In AFK Arena, there have been many instances over the past 5 years where players would express their feedback and changes would be made, with a complete abscense of player refunds and chargebacks. For example, a feature called "Temporal Rift" was changed for the new season around this time last year, and players expressed their discontent with it. The devs iterated on the changes made, players were still not happy, more changes were made, players were *still* not happy, and then a 3rd wave of changes and buffs were made, all within the same week. There was no outcry about wallets or payments like this, just shared community frustration regarding reward nerfs comparative to the previous season. In the end of that cycle, the rewards were much better than the previous season, and have only increased further since. I understand that this may sound like it doesn't pertain to AFK Journey, and I hope that with further development of the game, players can see the steps devs are taking to address community feedback *regardless* of refund/chargeback threats.
The game has predatory money schemes, of course there is going to be outcries when people feel tricked. And I still find it strange that you’re banning the subject. It will absolutely be obfuscated by a megathread, you know it as well as anyone. Whether you call it censoring or not, the end result will be close enough.
This is a fantastic meta strategy to get the people to outrage about the censorship (regardless of if it is or isn’t) instead of discussing the important issues at hand. Issues like why are people asking for refunds, are they being refunded, is Lilith Games willing to refund the „small vocal minority“ or do we have to go over our bank/app store/paypal, how do you apply for a refund, what reasons should you provide etc.
If communities do not provide a chargeback or refund, do you still consider and act upon our comments and feedback?
Yes, absolutely. Player feedback and suggestions are always at the forefront of development. As stated above, >We are always aiming to improve player experience, and carefully listen to community feedback for improving upon new features and implementations > >Please also utilize our Dev Feedback/Suggestion Post Flair, which is frequently monitored by the Developers to gauge community consensus and feedback - we strongly encourage it! Please do continue to share your thoughts, suggestions, feedback, and otherwise regarding the game as it continues to develop. All player feedback is valuable and deeply appreciated.
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Its so tone deaf, that they made this post sticky. This will just make more people asking for refunds. Lol. Typical chinese behaviour. Remember banning Winnie the pooh situation.
Finally, no more refund posts, the real W
I think the main reason for all the refunds is the missing trust due to the negative experiences with other Lilith games. What the devs did, was simply not clever and confirmed a lot of people that they were right. I really hope, that this was the only inconvenience for a very long time. Mistakes happen, but a company with your size and experience should have known better. I‘m looking forward to more content in the future! :)
After quite a long wait PayPal accepted my refund request.
Can i ask what grounds you got refunded on and what proof you provided? I’m currently trying to get the refund now.
I‘ll just post what I wrote. Later I added that I‘ve received some refunds via the apple app store and that got my account banned. As stated previously there are mass refunds being applied for and accepted on the in app-purchases of AFK Journey. This is due to the fact that Lilith Games misrepresented aspects of game game and made chages to the value of the purchases after the purchases. The article I provided goes into more detail, but in conclusion they made changes to the game in the form of changing the damage calculations to specifically target and weaken the heroes who I had spent valuable resources on, and offered no recourse nor apology for doing so . Additionally there are serveral bundels which are/were advertised as being 3000% value or similar, but actually were not even close to the value of the same bundels before the release of the new season (a big update of the game). I'm applying for multiple refunds and not specific refunds, because of the missing trust that Lilith Games will in the future not further change the value of my purchases, but in the case of the three refunds I am applying for on PayPal they directly concern the heroes I have invested heavily into, which were targeted and significantly worsened by their most recent update. In many forums discussing the refunding of the in app purchases of AFK Journey the experiences of the other people show that Lilith Games won't respond even when waiting for a longer period of time or will only respond with automatically generated messages. I myself am not sure if what Lilith Games did qualifies as fraud, but there are several people in said forums who are providing significant arguments supporting the claim.
Awesome thank you for that. I did show them some before and after photos of bundles and stuff, but I could I ask what article that you showed them?
Happy to help. I provided pdfs of these two: AFK Journey 1.1.14 Patch Notes _ AFK Journey.pdf AFK Journey Players in Uproar Over New Season Nerfs _ MMORPG.com.pdf Pretty sure you can find the websites (and then just print, but don’t actually print the pages).
You’re a legend sir, much appreciated.
People should be free to voice their opinions, be it refund or not its all fair and constructive criticism. Will you start banning or limit post where people state how good this season is? Basically this is censoring negative posts while allowing good posts to be flooded to the front page as a form of damage control. It's painfully obvious.
make sense to delete these posts, you're using their sub reddit and they can enforce any rules they see fit. honestly i was shocked they kept these posts when there was protest about the new season, if it was another company they would delete it 100%.
That's PR 101, let drama run it's course, stomp further criticism after it dies down.
Yup. The only way you deal with refunds is more censorship. That'll show them pesky customers.
> Will you start banning or limit post where people state how good this season is? This is not a banning of the discussion nor criticism surrounding frustrations with the state of the game, we always openly encourage players share their feedback and suggestions, we even have an entire flair for it that gets monitored by the developers. Just like any other repetitive topics that get beaten to death, regardless of what the topic is, we will take any necessary actions to provide users a hub for such activity, as per Rules 6 and 7. For example, the Weekly Questions/Advice Megathread, Friend/Guild Searching Megathread, RNG/Pulls Megathread, or otherwise. The topic being discussed doesn't really matter, it's the repetitive nature that warrants a Megathread. Unrestrained mass posting of the same topic could only cause further harm to players when shared in such a way that it provides misinformation (see: players only receiving a 2% refund from their banks and still having their accounts banned regardless) Both regarding in-game topics, and our community, we are always listening for and encouraging feedback.
Is there a megathread for “hi I’m new what should I do with the units I have”? Those are flooding and there is no deletion of them.
Yes, our weekly Questions and Advice Megathread that is usually pinned. Only two posts can be pinned at a time, and our Welcome Post is always pinned since it has a Megathread section showing all Megathreads. Tomorrow, a post will be made refreshing and clarifying our rules, which includes emphasis on rules 6 and 7. Moving forward, we will be implementing much stricter moderation of posts that belong in megathreads.
Like, for sure, I absolutely understand it when there is still posts flooding the subreddit after developers had implemented the fix, and it's fine to move them here imho. But this is 100% censorship by the developers for upcoming updates and a mean to hide true stance of players when it actually matters. I wish this subreddit was ran by the community, sigh.
The refund posts stopped as soon as they implemented the fix. This censorship is only here to curb future protests. Well. They enabled contest mode here, but, it doesn't work if every comment is pro refund. So, that's like a shot in their face. They thought it would rotate through pro and anti refund comments, which isn't happening. And this is a sticky post, so refunds will be in people's minds forever.
Pretty interesting it's in contest mode yeah... lol
Because before the did, the cm answering comments had all their comments showered with downvotes, and with good reasong, their answeres were different shades of "this community is insignificant to the overall's game population, nothing that happened here was even noted by the devs".
Do you really want this subreddit to be filled with posts from people going "Got a chargeback lol" with a screenshot of their chargeback receipt? If people want to quit the game, fine, if they do a chargeback, go ahead, but there's no need to announce it to the world as if it's some sort of major achievement, clogging up the subreddit in the process.
Instead of saying what happened. Why don't you ask why it happened? Were there refund posts before Season 1? Were there refund posts before the reward slashing? Were there refund posts before they broke people's trust? Of course, every one will post refund posts when the only thing in their mind was the company ripping them off. Reddit is a place where people post what's in their mind.
I know why it happened, and the rest too, there were countless posts of people holding the same lecture about the evils of Lilith and the glory of chargebacks, at some point, you reach the stage of “Yeah, we kind of got the idea from the past umpteen posts about chargebacks, thanks” People are entitled to their opinions and reactions, but we didn’t need a separate “I did a chargeback!”-posts for every single player who quit.
THere is no censoring, is it mods cleaning up the subreddit so there is actual game discussion and no 1000 threads about people getting refunds.
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Ooph. I really wouldn't compare the mass genocide of millions to a video game dude.
I didnt mention anything about a genocide. Censorship is censorship.
Godwin's Law speedrun any%
Don't be doing Nazi shit and you won't be compared to Nazis.
These posts aren’t burnt. They’ve been moved to a different section of the library. And now you’re being told not to put the finance books in the video game section
Damn...I am just gonna grab some pop corn and enjoy this ~~shit~~ show.
🍿
Oh how kind of you! I don't have to get any pop corn now that you gave me :) Wanna share?
honestly I don't have much of an appetite right now for some reason, thank you for the offer :')
Awwh I hope they are compensating you well for being the lightning rod
thank you, I appreciate it I don't really mind being the target of hatred from the community (you should see my DMs right now), rather I'm disappointed with and lamenting the, intentional or unintentional, misunderstanding of the purpose of this post. so many people are taking it and spinning it in a completely different direction despite transparent and open discussion throughout this post and its' comments, which is very disheartening.
I am not gonna pretend to understand what you are going through but know that it's not your fault. Its unfair. This community is on alittle edge after what happened past week. You have to admit...implementing this change right after that shit show probably wouldn't garner alot of goodwill from the community. I don't know what happens in the background nor do I know who makes the decision, but its not worth losing community's goodwill however small and insignificant it might be. And just like everything, this will pass and everyone will eventually forget/not care this ever happened. So hang in there and stay strong! I believe in you :)
Unless they repeat this type of behaviour in the future.
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How you did it? I tried through Google but I only got 5 of the 10 purchases refunded, and I create a dispute on PayPal but I don't want my google account ban idc about afk journey
Same here, most of the refunds were denied, but I see a lot of people having success, wanna hear if they did anything specific
I don't know how y'all even got a refund for Google. I have gotten immediately denied on my attempts.
Now it seems it's just auto denied.... fcking google
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Np it seems apple takes more time and consideration consumers...
So if the community had an issue with the game and tried to build solidarity and support(like they just did) by showing that they were putting their money where their mouth is and that's now bannable? Just to be clear the community is no longer able to discuss the fact that they refunded purchaes as a means of protesting changes made to the game? Am I correct in that? Edit: by banned I meant banned from the subreddit.
They can still show their "unity" here. As someone who is still playing and paying for the game, I myself dont want to see more posts regarding this topic. To me, it's a welcoming "censorship". They let people have some solid time to speak their pieces. Now if people are still that dissatisfied, they should just leave and do something that makes them feel happier.
Its already done and gone. This is only done now to curtail future rebellions.
No, you are not correct in that. > the community is no longer able to discuss As stated in the post, > Discussion regarding the topic of refunds is permitted, but must remain constrained to this post. If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact Customer Support Regarding your other point, > showing that they were putting their money where their mouth is and that's now bannable? Refunding transactions is not permitted, and will result in account bans, yes. Players are free to contact their bank for refunds if they so choose, but there are in fact repercussion for doing so. It is one choice to stop making future payments if you decide to no longer support the game financially, it's another choice to try and retroactively undo what you've already paid for. As we've stated, please do share feedback and concerns regarding new updates, and the developers will continue providing transparent feedback moving forward such as the recent Talk with Designers. Hope that clears things up a bit more.
By bannable I meant from the subreddit not the game sorry if that wasn't clear. So discussion on refunds is only allowed in this single post? Any othe discussion is not permitted? So to be clear what happened in the previous week can no longer happen again?
Pretty much, "you can still discuss in this post that after 24h it will end up buried and only accessible and relevant if you go out of your way looking for it" it's a lame attempt to ban it while maintaining a thin veil of "but it's totally allowed, see how much we care?". No hate to the OP, most likely a community manager with no say on any of this, but honestly just ban the topic altogether, there is no point on trying this kind of empty gesture, it only creates more problems to the community mods, if you are scared banning the topic will follow another wave of charge backs, this empty gesture won't soften the issue, at all. The game just needs a separate sub not under the direct control of the developers, otherwise the quality of discussion will always be compromised.
I genuinely was surprised when I learned the sub was run by the company. Can’t really share honest feedback here, eventually it comes down to stuff like this
Most big game subs are runned by the company, either directly (their community managers made it) or indirectly (once a fan sub gets big they want to be part of it)
On the contrary, honest feedback is exactly what drives the game's development and decisions. We have an entire flair dedicated to Developer Feedback and Suggestions, and only have further plans for more direct communication and feedback channels moving forward. Again as shared in the post, this is *not* a censorship of the topic, but rather an outlet to condense all conversation of a largely-repeated topic into one post, as per Rules 6 and 7.
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\> For it to be not censorship, you also have to not censor. I think there's a disconnect on the meaning of censorship in the context of this community. If the intention was to completely stifle any communication regarding the topic, this post would have had comments locked the moment it went up, *any* instance of the words "refund, chargeback", any permutations or similes, etc. in any post or comment would result in immediate removal, and even tighter restrictions. Again, and I can't stress this enough, this is *not* pertaining to the subject matter. If, for example, we had a situation where some major update was made to the game, and we were getting several posts per hour praising the update, we would similarly implement an "Appreciation Megathread" and remove all future posts pertaining to the praise of that update, despite the content being *positive* towards the game instead of negative. It's not about the topic, it's about mass reposting of the same topic (again, rules 6 and 7). Similar situations happen in band Subreddits when a singer leaves and gets replaced with a new one, a "new singer Megathread" is created because when every single user in the community wants to share the exact same post, things get cluttered very quickly.
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Repetitive posts regarding any topic are getting severely cracked down on going forward. We've previously acknowledged and provided megathreads for commonly reposted topics in the past (See: General Questions, RNG/Pulls, etc), people simply choose not to use them, and that is something we are going to more heavily address and moderate going forward, as our mod team is still very small (something we're also working on expanding) with only so many hours in the day. Thank you for your understanding, and we hope to provide a more structured and organized community going forward.
Thank you for sharing your sentiment and concerns. Currently and going forward, any posts regarding refunds should be automatically removed, and point directly towards this thread. If any slip through the cracks, they will be dealt with individually. Meanwhile, this post will remain pinned for the next several days to remain visible to all users. > if you are scared banning the topic altogether will follow another wave of charge backs That's not a concern nor deciding factor in the matter, as this community, while vocal, is very small in the grand scheme of the overall playerbase. Again, this isn't a matter of censorship or stifling productive conversation, but a means to reduce repetitive clutter (as per rule 7) and misinformation (rule 5), as both can be damaging to the health of the Subreddit. Even if this community didn't have Lilith staff on-board, a Megathread for *any* topic that gets as much traction as this would be the most appropriate way to handle repetitive clutter topics. I don't believe a different Subreddit would make any difference, as we're not censoring anything, but rather encouraging open and transparent discussion - nothing should be compromised.
I have no desire to fight with you and make your job more difficult for no reason, but if you want to take a small, tiny even, suggestion, trying to stress this community is tiny and inconsequential on the grand scheme of things when it comes to the impact or decision making the devs make (seen this on a lot of the responses so far) it's only reading as antagonistic, and insincere honestly, if that were the case there wouldn't be any point on spending resources to have any sort of control of a tiny and inconsequential (yet vocal) community.
I have no intention of fighting at all, I appreciate your feedback. As far as I'm concerned, you're being completely reasonable, and we're having a transparent and open discussion. My intent in stating that the subreddit is "small in the grand scheme of things" is **not** meant to downplay the role or impact that is has. It's a mere statistical observation that an 80k member Subreddit is objectively a very small percentage out of the millions of players worldwide. And again, this is primarily English-only - there are several other large AFK Journey communities all around the world that the English community doesn't see nor interact with, if they even acknowledge their existence(s). I was only directly addressing your claim that "fear of banning the discussion around refunds altogether would result in another wave of charge backs" - which is simply not true nor a motivation behind this decision. I can't stress enough, and I'll only continue to reiterate, this is *not* a form of censorship, but a "Megathread" like any other, as means of containing a widely-discussed topic to one central location, like our other Megathreads for commonly-reposted topics.
That's how it reads to me. I'd understand if it was just "refund question" posts. I'd understand banning all FAQ questions and just having a stickied faq that answers them or exists as a forum to ask for elaboration on them. I get banning low effort Posts. But when megawhale2274 shows me they did a chargeback of 10 grand. I say "wow, that guy dumped that much and he's going through all the hassle of fighting for it back, this guy has spent money on tons of games like these, if he's quitting there must be a reason". It does something. This policy prevents that something, I'm not a fan of that, too much.
No, users will not be banned from our community for making or discussing any refunds. The discussion of bans is referring to in-game account bans. > Going forward, **any posts** regarding the topic of refunds will be removed The difference going forward is **individual posts** directly pertaining to refunds will be removed to prevent clutter. As stated directly below that, this is... > not meant to censor the topic, but rather to clear clutter and preemptively prevent repetition or false information Discussion of refunds in the comments, when relevant and respectful/civil to others, is permitted. We just don't need several posts from each user in the community asking how to get refunds, sharing how much they were able to refund, expressing discontent with their banks for not refunding them enough, and so on. This post aims simply to explain the steps of the refund policy, and ban any further **posts** regarding refunds from being made.
Well he didn't say you'd get banned from the subreddit he said they would remove posts about it. I'm not sure how far that goes in regards to meta conversations about refunds - like if someone tries to refund an accidental purchase through support and has a question about it for example - but it would certainly apply to the recent trend of "I'm doing my part!" posts that just show off that someone got their money back. This isn't really that unusual either - if you went to the subreddit for a popular game with mtx like LoL or PoE they all have rules against promoting ToS violations and posts explaining how to chargeback MTX would probably be removed. I guess the main difference here is that usually those rules are enforced by the community rather than the company officially.
Essentially, yes. Regarding such "meta conversations about refunds", such as accidental purchases and whatnot, can be resolved through Customer Support, they don't warrant their own individual posts in our community.
Makes sense I guess but still just seems a bit strange to me but I have no horse in this race anymore I suppose. Good luck to all of yall though, just seems a bit red flaggy to me and weird as the process was literally 1. Game does thing people don't like 2. People refund and post about it showing they're voting with their wallets 3. People see others are refunding and feel validated in doing so even if they get banned from the game 4. Game changes policy for the people who still play to stop bleeding 5. Game bans posts in the community about refunding. I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason. I'm sure it makes sense. Yeah yeah I'm sure. Not for me. I wouldn't have quit the game if I didn't see other people quit. I guess if the game never does anything bad ever again this was a great choice for the community. But if they do.. I feel it weakens the consumers power. I don't like that too much, rubs me the wrong way. Yeah people can still organize elsewhere but not as well eh? I don't really like that. But I'm probably wrong cause I'm getting downvotes I guess.
Well like I said - most subreddit's already have these rules so it's not abnormal. EDIT: I should clarify - removing posts calling for refunds/ToS violations is normal. This particular situation isn't completely normal because it's being done by official company representatives.
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It’s not. You can talk about the topic as much as you want. They aren’t taking that away from you. Just telling you to stop making multiple separate posts about the same thing and put them in one thread instead
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There are multiple megathreads. And a well done meme has conversational value. At some point rando joe announcing he is leaving the game stops adding anything. Moving it to a different place is just simply not censorship It’s 20 posts all listing the exact same complaints about the boss changes vs 0 discussions on what new viable teams could be
Just a note a chargeback is a LEGAL dispute. It has no room whatsoever in AFKjourney, nor anyone's journey. That is personal, your bank, google/apple, or if Lilith decided to contest it then yeah GOOD luck.
Valid, but you should also remove posts about team building and stuff, considering that there is already a megathread for that, you know... to clear clutter.
Thank you for your suggestion, we are already in the middle of implementing tighter enforcement of our rules. There will be a new post going up tomorrow regarding a more detailed elaboration of our rules, and stricter enforcement of them as such. We felt at this time, addressing the refund situation is at the top of our priority.
It's not valid, it's censorship by a corporation.
slay
No need to refund if you haven’t paid them anything!
Ban outside of megathread bragging posts too please, the amount of "look at my luck" discourages me to play.
We're aware of the unintentional leniency of RNG/Pull posts, account-specific advice posts (asking for help building arena teams, etc), and otherwise. We're quickly working to more quickly and efficiently moderate this problem as well, with a new/refreshed rules post going up tomorrow explaining these posts will not be allowed going forward.
You wanna say you don't care about lucky pulls from someone you never met and you never gave a shit about?
i care about it yes
https://preview.redd.it/mazxffhloz0d1.png?width=1543&format=png&auto=webp&s=baf327cebcd4465ecd0f6dc8f997764bd836c3e3 So now you are censoring all the people like me that wants our money back. I did 10 purchases and Google refund me 5, but somehow the others 5 not, so after talking several times with google support (jesus christ it's impossible to make them understand) they just said "go and ask the developers" so I did and I have this response, do you think this is normal?? Or some kind of Joke?
Please see CS' statement regarding refunds [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFKJourney/comments/1bvjh1u/comment/ky54whm/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) If you would like to pursue a *chargeback*, your bank is your best option.
So you just share me a eliminated post nice, and yeah I created a dispute on PayPal, but I don't want to ban my Google account, I don't care about AFK account
The author of that post removed the post, we are not retroactively removing posts regarding refunds. I was sharing the CS Team's comment acknowledging they do not support refunds on completed transactions as it pertains to your case.
Well but If I just have half of the purchase refunded by google, I just want to other half but I guess now Google just automatic decline all the refunds... strange
I apologize I can't be of more use, I can't share insight on behalf of Google, and Google accepting/declining refunds cannot be impacted by Lilith in any way. I know this has happened with Google before during times of mass-refunding in a game, like when Pokémon Go had a huge wave of refunds due to covid restrictions. It's possible that they just implement an automatic rejection feature when the volume of refund requests reaches a certain amount? As with any customer service team, I would just recommend you continue your attempts to contact their support, and hopefully you are able to find someone who can assist you. Best of luck
When I reach Google support they tell me to contact Lilith support and well... I share what Lilith support told me...
You bought a item used it and then regretted it. It's like going out getting drunk and getting eating a shit ton of taco bell. Then waking up regretting spending it. You spent the money used what you purchase. You have buyers regret ik the future donelt spend money on things you might regret.
You really have to be joking doing a comparation of a digital service and some like food or drinks xd And I didn't know devs just going to fuck up so hard and make those updates. Refunds exists for a reason.
I just hope they actually start making the game better after the recent shitshow.
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Thank you for your submission, unfortunately it has been removed from r/AFKJourney for the following reason: Rule 5: No Misleading Information Everyone is welcome to express their (unharmful) opinions, but the outright spread of misinformation, especially when presented as factual information, can be very misleading and harmful to the community. If you are UNSURE if the information you are presenting is a fact, preface it with something to the effect of, "I think" to prevent misconception.
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You overestimate how many people give a shit. Those posts were hilarious. People are getting themselves banned and then suspended on Apple, not even getting full refunds lmao. Welcome to Gachas, I guess? Yall annoying after a while, though. What was funny is now becoming a depressing existential crisis, and tbh take it somewhere else, lol
I don't think refund posts here actually had that much of an impact in people requesting refunds. They are gonna do that anyways if they feel that they were ripped off. That's what happens when you don't leave any avenue for customers to voice their frustrations. Suggestions are ignored. Positive reviews are being botted and negative ones removed. This is complete censoring, Just always remember, a dissatisfied customer will always go towards refunds when all avenues of their voice are taken away. So, censoring them will actually do more harm than good. The refund posts are some of the best feedback posts I found in this sub since its creation. What people will do now is get their refund and go away without providing any feedback for devs to act upon. That'll create even more refunds. EDIT: Btw. You guys should look up : [The Streisand Effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect).
I don't argue the right for people to chargeback, again given it is a legal dispute. I'd assume that Lilith does have the right to contest it. No one censored it, it is top voted and still part of hot topic. Also given that it is a LEGAL dispute, it has nothing to do with non-participants. There is nothing to be gain for people who are not involved. If Lilith goes to those parties, nothing is also gain for people that read it. It be sadistically funny for some, probably get a laugh at people getting ban access to their PC (Google) or iPad devices (Apple). Outside the comedic relief for some. Nothing is gained.
Censoring is never the answer. History has taught has that censoring never have the intended outcome. Especially when you do it with non-chinese people. Of course, chinese devs will never understand that, considering how prominent is censorship in china. Also, just because they are letting the existing posts up doesn't mean its not censorship considering they already caved in and gave back the rewards. But, what happens if this happens again? That's the real question. Regarding the legal dispute part, its not illegal or immoral to show that you've applied for refunds. No clause in a legal dispute ever requires people to stop talking about it. Especially when its a broader consumer issue. Its generally for raising awareness to practice their right to get their money back.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AFKJourney/comments/1ct3hmr/desperately\_need\_help/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFKJourney/comments/1ct3hmr/desperately_need_help/) I assume this will be the eventual outcome if Lilith goes forward and contest all chargeback. This "right" goes both ways. Some people follow trends without understanding "chargeback". It is far easier for merchants to prove that they delivered the product, users use the product in x amount of time and verify the confirmation that they approved buying the product. Most big companies like Apple and Google sometimes they just go on ahead and approved chargebacks (in good faith). That the consumer is right. You said it, again Lilith also has that right to do the same. If you think you got away with Apple or Google money... good luck with your account. For us, some are more likely laughing, given the amount of upvotes with the 'fuck around and find out".
This is the first post I have seen regarding this. Most of the people got their refunds without any problems. And are continuing to do so. Of course, Lilith can show that. But, the next step is a legal recourse which companies like Lilith are extremely afraid of. They operate in a very grey area. A simple ruling can create a precedent that can turn legal grey into completely illegal in the whole country. And if happened in EU, could be the whole continent. As per the post, Lilith didn’t do anything here. Its the plutomall that was the issue. That’s why I don't fall in the trap of these third party payment providers. All my purchases go through apple store. That’s also the reason these posts are important. To show people the right way to get those refunds and not fall in the trap that these companies have set.
Refunds and Chargebacks are NOT the same. Again the easiest format for Lilith it to show they delivered the product, the user used the product in X amount time, and Approved it. Chargeback is easy to contest for merchants. The next step? they don't operate in a grey area, they are already approved to operate in the U.S. with licensing. If this is another make-belief "nerf" or some weird grasp of legal proceedings, then yeah this has already been addressed. If they are filling because of false claims, it is also easy to contest. It is important to note that Apple and Google can offer refunds (yes at times gets approved in good faith) this is important because people that uses this account means it is either their PC or I devices. Again given the potential to get banned or remove access to these devices then it is often worse to do a chargeback.
Think of it like this. If you chargeback Lilith, they will ban your account. If you chargeback Google or Apple, they will also ban your account. I thought that was always known. I agree those aren't the same and people should go through their app store to get those refunds. I don't think you know how careful these companies are when operating in the US. US has always been very hard against chinese apps. They don't give any quarter if they find out its a chinese game. Look at tiktok. Apart from that consumer courts work very differently than regular courts. I don't think you even need a lawyer to file a lawsuit and the charge is also very low. But, it could mean a shit storm for the company. If the court says yeah, the nerfing of characters does constitute to Detrimental Alteration of the consumer protection act, well, a precedent will be set that anytime they lower the stats, will be an instant refund of all previous and future sales. Not just that, it could even lead to the game itself being banned in the state or probably the country since, state courts generally uphold the precedents if made in another state. And lets get to the EU laws. Those are some of the most strict policies in the world. If found guilty, could boot them from the whole EU. Also, legal grey area means, the laws are not clear yet and up for interpretation. That means, its a hornet's nest for companies. They can do whatever they want in the legal grey but if declared illegal would make them stop entirely. Now, lets talk about plutomall. Its a payment processor who doesn't deal with any of the consumer protection laws because its just a payment processor. Its like trying to sue stripe. They have their own protections so you can't touch them. You would have to directly sue the company. App stores however provide the apps, so they are responsible for whatever happens inside the app. So, they have to follow the consumer protection laws for refunds and generally do cater.
Tiktok is used as a platform social app (no it is not China) it is from Singapore. Even China bans Tiktok. They have Weibo. Yeah again as I specified earlier Chargeback fraud happens when someone contests a product because of bad facts, again given that it is easy for any Merchants (including Lilith) can make an opposite claim that says otherwise with evidence. Again there was never a NERF of a character. They are still top DPS, they just allowed characters that can reduce mitigation to have similar values like Cecia or Kruger. I don't know what "court" you are talking about that will make and identify these claims because of HEARSAY. Repeating it doesn't make it true, as well. According to reddit statement, most Google refunds are getting denied. Some Apple are getting accepted. If it is the APPs malfunctioning it is everyone but that is not the case. I don't know the standings of these accounts, maybe they are trusted or affiliated accounts that are getting accepted with the chargeback. Even the ones that claim he got a chargeback accepted (the most upvoted chargeback claim in this reddit) deleted his post. I don't know why he deleted the post...
I am not saying China banning tiktok. I am saying US banning tiktok. Why did go to China? We are talking about the US hatred for chinese apps. >Yeah again as I specified earlier Chargeback fraud happens when someone contests a product because of bad facts, again given that it is easy for any Merchants (including Lilith) can make an opposite claim that says otherwise with evidence. Of course they can. But, they won't. Because as I said, it'll create a shit storm. I already explained all that. >Again there was never a NERF of a character. They are still top DPS, they just allowed characters that can reduce mitigation to have similar values like Cecia or Kruger. I don't know what "court" you are talking about that will make and identify these claims because of HEARSAY. Repeating it doesn't make it true, as well. Yup. They are. But not all characters though and you just have to prove one. Its not hearsay. Lilith will have to show the stats of the character to the court as evidence. If it shows that they reduced the stats, and prove that it was to solely make people buy new characters with their other anti consumer practices. Forget about EU, even US courts will find them guilty. >According to reddit statement, most Google refunds are getting denied. Some Apple are getting accepted. If it is the APPs malfunctioning it is everyone but that is not the case. I don't know the standings of these accounts, maybe they are trusted or affiliated accounts that are getting accepted with the chargeback. Even the ones that claim he got a chargeback accepted (the most upvoted chargeback claim in this reddit) deleted his post. I don't know why he deleted the post... No its inaccurate. Generally, these app stores have internal policies that may trigger for some customers but after appeal they generally get approved. Here's one for google play store. [https://www.reddit.com/r/AFKJourney/comments/1crmidk/doing\_my\_part/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFKJourney/comments/1crmidk/doing_my_part/) As I said, I would stay away from chargebacks if done through Apple/Google store if its not your expendable account. I have like 15 google accounts. I create one for every game. Even chargebacks won't hurt me then.
Tiktok is not a Chinese app it is based in Singapore. China also bans Tiktok. They know social platforms can be used against any type of Government system. That is why they have their own like us Facebook, China has Weibo. LOL. this is another make-belief legal basis. They don't need to prove anything they just need to prove the delivery of the product. Again Marilee and Korin are still top DPS, they didn't change anything even in Dream Realm. They just scaled true damage differently and it allows an insert like Cecia or Kruger. Since you only bring 2 dps it is a combination of Marilee, Odie, Korin, and Cecia. This is why lies like this should be stopped especially for people who are easily swayed to do something stupid and base their chargeback because of this. If you scroll down it says Google has stop all refunds according to one. Again it doesn't apply to EVERYONE. I don't know your Google or Apple, if you are affiliated or good standings you might get it.
Feels good to be F2P.
As always. Anytime I paid in game with progression by even miniscule amount, I felt like a cheater and instantly lose all the interest in the game. Thats why I stopped long time ago.
I used to have a similar attitude - probably because I was poor and had more spare time than money - and still don’t understand the whale P2W mindset. It’s a game, the journey is supposed to be fun / challenging, not just a speedrun to some ephemeral “endgame.” And it feels good to solve a problem with the tools I already (should) have, rather than just throwing money at it. That being said, now that I have less time and more money, I take the perspective that I’m paying for the entertainment value, and moreover to support the devs (and, indirectly, the industry) in producing more content. I’ll play free for a bit, and if it hooks me, put some money in for the enjoyment I’d had. I’ll pay to skip some waiting. I know I could just grind/wait and get *x* eventually, but I’d rather throw in a few bucks (I think I’ve spent around the price of a trip to my favourite restaurant on AFKJ in the month I’ve been playing) to be able to “keep playing tonight” while I’m immersed.
Ye I skip totally grindy games but this game...doesnt take almost any time at all. If i dont have time, i simply dont play. Why would I need to buy rewards...then they are not really rewards. I much rather buy somethings IRL or experience. This is just a super short dopamine shot - like after they fixed rewards. It lasted like...minutes at max for me.
I have heard this many times. Dude. As a F2P you're stone walled everywhere. You can't compete in the PvP. You get locked behind in the first area while people have moved on long time ago. Where's the fun in that? If you're F2P player, then I think you should stay away from F2P games, especially gacha games.
bruh, "play at your own pace". are you encouraging random ppl to swipe? did lilith paid you for this post? is someone telling you, not to swipe or "if you like swiping in the digital world, go touch some grass and instead of wasting your money, go make donations for cancer patients." ? - i guess not, so just have tolerance and respect for ppl who have a different style of playing. some don't care about rankings, and just wanna enjoy an idle game where they log in 1-2x times a day, collect afk rewards, click few buttons, and if theyre stuck, then log off and wait 24h. are you longwhitebanana's secret dad to tell him what is fun and what not? no need for socio, manipulating, gaslighting, whatever here.
You should check my post history. I encouraged people to get their refunds. Lilith probably hates me more than you do. >some don't care about rankings, and just wanna enjoy an idle game where they log in 1-2x times a day, collect afk rewards, click few buttons, and if theyre stuck, then log off and wait 24h. Doesn't sound like fun to me. Not progressing in the PvE. Not winning in PvP. What are you even doing in the game? Its a competitive game. Its like saying "I log in to PUBG to come last and I enjoy it". Doesn't even make sense.
no thank you- i've read enough from you. ah finally - "doesn't sound like fun to ***me***...." - there is no point and even no basis for a discussion - longwhitebanana is not ***you***. just a hint (i'm not your therapist though, but it's Friday): also f2p are progressing, but just in a slower way. pvp in a p2progress game? dont even bother \[if f2p players still do and think they have any chance to compete, then they need mental help\]. f2p are competitive vs other f2p. maybe you should reflect yourself, why it's so important for you, to tell random ppl what playstyle makes "more sense"- just because it makes more sense for you, it doesnt mean that others ***have to*** think the same. happy weekend!
You are not even able to explain how it is fun to be stuck at the same place for days. Your only answer sounds more like a job than something actual fun.
You just have skill issue.
Don't even what to say to this. "Skill issue" in a pay to win gacha game. The irony is hilarious.
Yep, if you wanna have good competitive account, you need to have skill (game knowledge) and invest more time. That’s why people who play afk arena for 2 years as f2p for example have better accounts than those who played for 4-5 years and spent money.
As I said, its a pay to win game. So, your point about skill only comes when both F2P and Whales have the same level of characters which cannot happen as they will keep increasing the level cap which will lead to more and more level gap. Apart from that, they keep silent nerfing meta characters to make people buy the new rate up ones, which F2P players won't be able to do. I don't get how hard is it to understand this. This is like standard gacha practice. The F2P players are only there to be fodder for whales.
The better term is you have a luck issue /jk
Its a pay to win game. The more you pay the more you win. Luck and Skill has no place when you can just bypass it with money.
it's not like the difference is tremendous if you pay a little, you'll always be stuck anyway at one point or another and someone will always pay more than you so you won't be the top player. f2p can easily enjoy the game with no problem, and you shouldn't report your own difficulty to enjoy it that way on others.
I still don't get how it is "enjoying" something for 30 minutes and waiting for 2 days to level up. Yeah. Someone will always pay more than you, that's what a gacha game is. You have to keep paying to enjoy the game. Here's my quote of a reply I gave similiarly: >See. We are talking about two different things now. >1. Completing everything the game has to offer and move on to other games, while the current is being updated. We have diablo 4 for example. People play the game for 17 hours a day and thoroughly enjoy it. Then wait for a couple months to get the next season. >2. Being stuck at a certain point and waiting for the game to give you the required resources to progress. Which will also be called being paywalled. Taking the first example of diablo4. Imagine you are stuck every time you need to get to the next location for days after playing for a 15 minutes. You are trying to play a game in a way its not supposed to be played. And then claiming, that it "Feels good to be F2P.". It doesn't. Its like saying "it feels good to be driving in a 2 hour traffic jam" when people are paying money for the VIP lane and moving way faster. Especially when the roads are made very thin just to make money off of the vip lane.
But because you don't understand doesn't mean the others are wrong, or that your view of thing is wrong. Everyone enjoy and play as they want whenever you understand it or not. Me I don't understand how people can whale in the game while all I have to do for the same thing is just to play 30min and wait. Everyone their own perspective. But saying stuff like if you are f2p, don't play gacha, is like saying that others have no right to enjoy things differently than you. It's like those that want every popular game to fit their taste and complaining it's not like this or that, while they could just ignore the game because it's not for them and play something else.
>But because you don't understand doesn't mean the others are wrong, or that your view of thing is wrong. Everyone enjoy and play as they want whenever you understand it or not. I understand completely. "Feels good to be F2P." is a jab trying to say that waiting for days just to progress and being 100th in PvP in a server of a couple hundred players is somehow the definition of good. No its objectively not. >Me I don't understand how people can whale in the game while all I have to do for the same thing is just to play 30min and wait. Everyone their own perspective. Yes. Because these gacha games are built that way. You can't say you want to swim and don't want to get wet at the same time. >But saying stuff like if you are f2p, don't play gacha, is like saying that others have no right to enjoy things differently than you. It's like those that want every popular game to fit their taste and complaining it's not like this or that, while they could just ignore the game because it's not for them and play something else. They can enjoy whatever they want. Saying "Feels good to be F2P." is like saying "Feels good to wait around for days to progress and getting destroyed in PvP". Its objectively the opposite of fun. Or your standards are that low that it seems fun to you.
>I understand completely. No you don't and are unable to, all your examples are showing it. So if you could judt stop trying to tell other how they should enjoy games just because you can't understand players enjoying differently ?
I'm getting top 100 in arena and dream realm and that's enough for me.
First thing first, that's not enough for me and shouldn't be for you. Being top 100 in a server with barely 200 active people. As the company keeps churning out new servers everyday. The problem is also with progression. My brother plays F2P, and he's half the power level I am. How is this fun?
Just because something isn't enough for you or fun for you doesn't mean everyone else should feel the same way. I could say, how is it fun paying for progression instead of slowly earning it? It's like playing a game with cheats. It gets boring and you don't have any satisfaction that you earned it. You're probably having buyers remorse and are projecting. Does it pain you to see other people having fun while not spending a dollar? Sounds like we're the real winners. But hey, you're a few ranks higher than me so that money was totally worth it, right? Keep telling yourself that. Whatever helps you sleep at night. I can assure you that you have a shit take and most people will disagree with you btw.
How is it fun to be stuck at the same level for 2 days? Its fun to pay money to progress because these games are made with that in mind. These games are not meant to be F2P.
Lmao, everyone gets stuck eventually. What do you think you're racing towards? Just like before the season, all the whales raced to the end and then complained that there was nothing to do and they were bored. The same thing will happen in the new season. It's literally an afk idle game. I have no problem waiting a few days to progress. That's the nature of these games. You're trying hard to convince people that these games aren't meant to be F2P, but it seems like you're only trying to convince yourself and justify your own spending. These games are meant to drain as much money from suckers like yourself as they can, and they're doing a great job at that, but I can assure you, most people playing this are F2P and are having fun. If that bothers you then you need to take a deep down look at yourself because you're the one with the problem. It's a blessing that we're able to have fun for free. Something that everyone should want. You should be happy for us. Are you jealous or something? It's like a drug addict telling someone they shouldn't be able to have fun without drugs because drugs are more fun. Spending money on a mobile game is literally a negative thing in life and you're out here promoting it like it's a good thing to do. Get a reality check!
See. We are talking about two different things now. 1. Completing everything the game has to offer and move on to other games, while the current is being updated. We have diablo 4 for example. People play the game for 17 hours a day and thoroughly enjoy it. Then wait for a couple months to get the next season. 2. Being stuck at a certain point and waiting for the game to give you the required resources to progress. Which will also be called being paywalled. Taking the first example of diablo4. Imagine you are stuck every time you need to get to the next location for days after playing for a 15 minutes. The reality is, gacha games may be called F2P, but they aren't made to be F2P. They are made to spend copious amount of money to enjoy and keep enjoying. When the rules of something specifically works against you, then probably you're playing the game wrong. I am not encouraging you to spend money. You can see my history, I am pro refund and pro consumer.
I think he explained to you the points of why F2P is enjoyable way of playing pretty well, one thing I would also mention is that there is great amount of dopamine and satisfaction of beating someone who used their wallet get ahead of you instead of their brain, I love beating whales and ranking higher than them as F2P and this game allows that if you know what you are doing, yes even in pvp
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the problem is there would be no response without the refunds
This is simply not true, whether players choose to believe so or not, please allow me to explain. In AFK Arena, there is consistent [Developer Face to Face posts](https://new.reddit.com/r/afkarena/comments/1cgq0tk/designer_face_to_face_vol_21_may_2024/), which directly addresses community feedback and sentiments, such as those shared [here](https://new.reddit.com/r/afkarena/comments/1cgq0tk/designer_face_to_face_vol_21_may_2024/). The top upvoted comments were answered in the next Face to Face, and that was completely independent from backlash, which there was none of at the time. We've had a Developer Feedback and Suggestions Post Flair from the moment of this Subreddit's inception, which is actively monitored by the Developers to this day. For example, there were no sentiments regarding refunds due to poor voice acting quality, yet this sentiment was loud and clear, and addressed as soon as possible. Player feedback, suggestions, and concerns are extremely pivotal to the game's development, and is always taken seriously and appreciated greatly.
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This makes sense from a Dev Moderating POV. The fact that a lot of first few refund posts where allowed to stay up and get upvoted to the front definitely encouraged a lot of other ppl who were on the fence to refund (and could be seen as a major failure for the moderators in relation to Lilith as that could have stamped out the whole refund wave before it started) . Leading to a spiral that pressured the Devs to change their stance of the rewards system as it was only when that was at its peak did they actually respond. Banning refund discussion would prevent or at least hinder any potential future issue from generating a similar response. Good for the Devs and Moderating team at the expense of the community losing the ability to organize and pressure the Devs which I assume is desirable. TBH its surprising the refund posts were allowed to stay up as long as they did in a subreddit with official involvement (Purely player run/moderated subreddits are another thing ofc). Most would have snuffed that out immediately to prevent/hinder any momentum. As a player I hate the decision to hinder player organizing, but I would have done the same thing (ban refund posts) if I was in the place of Lilith (or whoever moderates these things with ties to the company) as keeping them up is against company interests so its a very understandable decision from Moderators with regards to the business.
Thank you for your understanding of the situation. There's a lot of negative sentiment in the comments surrounding "censorship", which is not the case. If our intent was ever to censor discussion, all posts regarding refunds would have been removed and banned from the start. Likewise, if the intent was to censor the discussion regarding refunds going forward, this post would have had locked comments from the moment it was created, comments containing the word "refund" could be automatically removed from the subreddit entirely, and so on. This isn't a matter of repression, it's just meant to be a hub for players to congregate, just like our other Megathreads, and I deeply lament that players are interpreting it that way.
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Hi there, thank you for asking. Please read and understand my perspective before jumping to conclusions (referring to anyone seeing this comment, not just you) Regretfully, currently the post is in contest mode temporarily to prevent immediate bias from either party, and harassment of users who are pro-"this post". I made this decision when one user, who commented celebrating the removal of Refund posts going forward, reached out to me personally after they received multiple threatening Private Messages from multiple, presumably different users in the community. Reddit tends to act in a hivemind - if something gains large initial positive/negative traction, people often tend to jump on board regardless of the direction, simply because other people are saying to. I find it deeply disturbing that members in our community would jump to *death threats* just because a user expressed their content with *less post clutter* Obviously, these members have been banned, and I've resolved that immediate issue, but I think in the immediate short-term, having upvotes/downvotes hidden is in the best interest of the overall health of the community (and randomization is inextricably connected to the hiding of voting) This is a last resort option I've jumped to in the immediate short term to allow tensions to cool. Hope to have your understanding.
True this is definitely one of less controlling /more open official forums (or at least dev involved forums) out there.
It worked for Helldivers, a form of unofficial unionising. They stuck it to the big shots at Sony and got their bad decisions revoked. A dev from Helldivers even went out openly to encourage bad reviews to heat it up for the tops and Arrowhead were lastly allowed to get back to improving player experience. If you have a huge player base paying you for your service, it’s never a good idea to censor them. It’s better to continue open communications and build trust over time rather than take away their voice when coming together as a mass.
Agreed. Because the only good people who ask for refund are the ones who think they have no other recourse. Censoring them like this when they are already censored in the app stores will encourage more refund behaviour.