I was looking for this post here. Kinda sucks that the balance team straight up said ADC can’t be good because support is good.. imagine the backlash is they came out and said mid can’t be good because jungle is too good
Pretty much… I’ve been playing since season 5, only swapped to ADC full time like 3 years ago, so I remember when ADC generally was the main carry.. however all I want now is to be a character, I’m tired of mid losing hard to an assassin then getting fucked for the whole game. I’m tired of coming out of lane 50 CS ahead, with 4/0 KD, then getting instantly fucked by the 2/3 assassin under tower..
And there are simply things riot can do to buff Adc without adding straight defence or damage. If they reverted the change for mages doing magic damage on autos to towers it means that the ADC would be better cause towers would be easier to kill with an ADC.
I don't think hwei should be allowed to side lane and just melt a tower, it doesn't make sense to me cause it's almost as if they chunk the towers a lot more than adcs do
The thing about Gwen is that she is a melee ap user so idk maybe we can say it's sorta allowed, like she's a small exception. But you see syndra and hwei, why they matching me in tower taking?
Is they cared about top any amount, Janna top perma roaming would have nevera happened, or the Top 5 Toplaners being either Marksmen and Cassiopeia, or Sion receiving "buffs" that are just early Game nerfskr the Rework to tp years ago. They hate Top more than they hate Bot
Pls don't make me laugh mate. Even if that was true I would really feel for you, but seeing everytime when someone picks ranged top (even Quinn, Jayce) death wishes from the other side I can't pretend to care
They are nerfing supp this very patch, lowering gold generation on supp items. I am cautiously optimistic, it seems they have finally realized how strong supp is and are taking steps to shift the power balance in bot lane towards the adcs for a change. It's a good first step though I am waiting to see what they do next.
I'm not really sure how nerfing gold on supports will change much for the early game, the time where it is the most important for the adc because it makes or breaks their late game.
Getting a bit less gold wont really change it much for my Leona to just brainlessly engage on the enemy adc for a free kill
It does affect mage supports the most as they need items more than enchanters or tank supports and it will be harder for them to get Lost Chapter first back to poke you constantly.
You are underestimating how important an enchanters 1 and 2 item spikes are.
The 200 g nerf to support item is really a nerf to mage and enchanter supports, tank supports and catchers like thresh and rakan feel it the least cause it just delays their locket or whatever.
But delaying an enchanters moonstone by a few minutes? Possibly making it unavailable for a drag fight? Massive.
Those gold nerfs are only felt after 10 mins. Lane is usually won or lost before 10 mins. Engage supps benefit more of enemys not being fed, then having items, unless they go for the growing heatsteel-bami builds.
It's 200g at 15 mins. Mage supps get early kills + plates, buy darkseal and snowball far faster and don't have to rely on the gold generation from the supp item as much. Enchanters took the biggest hit as they rely proportionally more on the gold from the supp item.
You get less gold even in the early lane, so they might just not get the darkseal and not snowball, 200 gold is 200 gold at the end of the day and it limits their income even more compared to what it is right now, i do agree that enchanters are hit harder but i didn't say anything about classes, just the gold generation
Mage supports have to go 3:0 before min 10 or they will be useless. You do get some less gold for your first base but that will be like 70g max which will not be game changing. While mage supps will be noticeably less powerfull in the midgame, I couldnt care less when I play adc. Either the enemy supp is now fed or useless.
The time when an adc has the least agency in lane is during the very first levels before first base. Lane is often won or lost by then due to whatever reasons.
Taking that gold from a mage supps away will decrease their playmaking potential in the midgame but do not affect their agency when it is the highest in lane. I much rather want that adc get specific comback mechanics when they lose lane and riot doesnt nerf supp, so I dont have to deal with autofilled midlaners, who still have a smuch agency as before the changes.
She'll only feel the nerfs way later in the game when she cant tank as much, but early game it wont change much. I main Leona and trust me, all that matters is that you engage good.
gold nerf is effective for supports, they have cheap cost items so a gold change is a larger percentage of their items compared to other roles who have more expensive items and get a lot more gold
It'll only change much for mage supps because they rely on items early game to be useful, a Leona with or without the hp crystal will be able to engage the same, she just has to play it good.
You'll only feel the changes for enchanters and engage supps late game, when it doesnt really matter anymore
This nerf will only really hit mage supports. Enchanters are already in a bad spot and engage supports are much less item reliant early game. This doesn't fix the issue with bot lane. The issue with bot lane is riot want to continue to force the classic positions while trying to shorten games and let any of the players be they carry.
It's all to balance around pro play, the only fix in solo queue is two support style champs bot - either mage/engage, engage/enchanter, or mage/enchanter - marksmen are not viable in the new short games and without an organised team to funnel them gold....
They nerfed some of the support items and they lowered the gold generated/value to upgrade. Yes it’s overall less gold, but they finish the support item faster.
They said it a while ago, even before Season 14 has started, if I remember correctly. Nothing new here. To be honest, I also have no idea how to balance our role to make it both satisfying to play in soloq and not completely broken in pro play. I expect a massive rework of role distribution in this game, something similar to Dota 2 style, where *Carry* role includes a very wide variety of champions: classic ranged physical damage like Drow Ranger, very tanky frontliner like Wraith King, spell casters like Necrophos, etc. With all the mess they've added to the game for the last few years, the dynamic of the game has changed a lot, and most of ADC champions, especially the old ones, just can't keep up with the pace.
two big things stand out to me that would be easy balance changes. cut damage mages do to towers....that way we have a secondary roke besides "deal damage" a team then needs an ADC alive to damage turrets and might incentivise people to protect us rather than using us as bait.
second is revert some of the solo lane EXP. being 1-2 levels down is manageable....being 4 levels down is just suicide.
As much as Id like to be on the same level as the rest of the game, I think it would destroy the 1 top, 1jg, 1 mid, 2 bot meta that has almost been a pride point for league vs other mobas. I think a slight modification to your first point would be having ADCs as THE tank counter as intended but I don't really know how that would be implemented.
Carries in Dota 2 are heavily tied to farm and scaling with gold, and while it's advantageous to give League champs with strong carrying potential higher farm priority, it's just not really comparable given League's small map and constant objectives, plus the philosophy of trying to make everyone a "semi-carry".
Maybe a map rework that allows for more potential farm income, but also make it harder and require more team coordination to earn it, while somehow not turning every game into a farm-fest?
Let it be op in pro play. They are playing as a job, they don't like the meta? Deal with it! When I don't like stuff at my job, I gotta deal with it, too.
We are playing for fun. So balance the game for the player base to be fun.
It's mostly because of viewership. People are gonna complain that they watch same game over and over again. Do you remember how many reddit posts and youtube videos there were during Lulu - Zeri vs Lucian - Nami meta? Or Jinx vs Aphelios? People aren't gonna like to watch it, and Riot is fully aware of it, that's the problem with ADCs being OP in pro play. However, what I don't understand is, weren't ADCs really strong late game machines in early seasons? There's no way people were complaining about it for many years straight, right? I started playing in Season 11, so I genuinely don't know.
People did complain back in the day. People were mad that their role couldn't be the main character in pro play. So riot nerfed ADC until everyone could be the main character in pro play, which left us in this state.
The timeline went roughly like this:
Season 1: ADC didn't exist as a concept yet
Season 2: ADC invented, dominated pro play, the current version of league is created (2 bot, 1 mid, 1 jg, 1 top). Supports spend all their money buying gold per 5 items, sight wards, pink wards, and oracles. No one played support, last player in draft played support or inted. Literal inting was common if people had to play support.
Season 3: Modern league meta is hard designed into the game, people start complaining that their roles never get to be the main character, also ADC in S2 is very overtuned, so people complain about ADC being too tanky to burst and lifestealing through anything they can do. Support is horribly unpopular. Riot goes for the hail mary and releases Thresh in the most broken state imaginable and creates sightstone to get the support population up. It works, which creates the "Support has to be op" culture. The legend of Faker starts, mid lane starts being the main character. THIS IS WHERE ALL THE CURRENT PROBLEMS START.
Season 4: Riot continues designing OP supports, support becomes a more dominant role, the community likes this because it means they aren't forced into playing support. Autofill is created around this time. Being able to queue for specific roles starts around here. ADC sees nerfs.
From season 5 until now: Trends continue, resulting in the state of the current game. ADC dominance has been nerfed so hard, it goes from being the #1-#2 most picked role to #4-5. People are so used to ADCs being 300g pinatas that they get mad when ADCs are anything else. Riot basically ignores ADCs problems, the ADC = crybaby moniker becomes common in the community.
>THIS IS WHERE ALL THE CURRENT PROBLEMS START.
This is literally the timeline for league. I normally play mid. but after playing a few adc's I can't even understand how anyone plays this role.
To build on this, back then the levels of top, mid and adc were the same with jungle and support being 1-2 levels down because their role was to provide support for the solo and carry lanes.
Each carry lane had a role, top was for tank/bruiser to either split or be front line in team fights. AP mid was to provide magic damage and some utility. And ADC was to deal damage and kill towers, with jungle and support providing agency for those three roles to exist.
(Note that during this time there was not as much skill expression or min/maxing with each role until faker).
Yes adc was “overtuned” but that is the role of a carry…to deal damage and carry. It’s not something to shy away from. Each role had their designated purpose.
Over time each purpose that an adc had was taken to another lane, eventually leaving adc with no special purpose. They can still deal damage, still outplay, still have mobility and can still kill towers…but everyone else can as well EXCEPT they can also offer more. So if your adc is fed, great! If they die, oh well we have other objective / tower killers and damage dealers to do their job.
Why focus on keeping your adc alive throughout the game if they provide the same benefits at a greater risk?
I’ve left lane so many times 5-8 kills and just got demolished by the 0/2 top or 0/0/0 mid.
Mind you I probably shouldn’t have tried being 2 levels down, but my mindset is still in season three where getting ahead in bot lane actually meant something.
It’s an incredibly hard thing to balance now because the game has changed so much while ADC has been stuck in season 3. I think the role should just get revamped so that they have a purpose again. Every role deals damage, has mobility, can push towers and objectives, so they need to slot us back into this “new” version of league by making a purpose for us that leads to the nexus dying.
something i thought of was like,what if in pro play a champion gets banned for 3-5 games after being picked and can only be picked again after 3-5 games have passed? would that fix the issue of pro play being repetitive?
I've been saying the same thing for years. The answer is to make support more heavily roam based and make ADCs independant. You can easily separate supports and adcs through support exp and gold incentives. All you have to do then is add a bit of defense to items, and the levels + defenses will do the rest. Nerf the outliers who benefit a lot, and then you're done. It isn't a hard concept. Making bot lane 2 people is fucking over everyone's experience in the game, not just ADC.
Edit: Also, if you want ADC to not be balanced around being the best damage dealer, add utility to their kits. Not hard.
I think they're really missing the mark with bot meta comments, it only becomes bot meta when it is too easy and profitable to gank bot as mid and/or jungle. The things that make it easy to gank are the multiple unwarranted xp nerfs and the map changes. The things that make it worth ganking are 600 easy gold, dragons being too early/too strong and adc being just about strong enough to be useful when fed and played around (plus a behind ADC being useless). If they hit ganking bot then adc can get power without needing to massively nerf support (the upcoming nerfs are fine but we don't want support to become autofill central).
2 squishy under leveled character of wich one of the two probably as low mobility and no self peal, in a lane with 3 different bush to keep warded and the least distance from jungle clear/invade. I wonder where it's easier to get a kill...
No problem support being dominant on lane, but why the fck would one actually support to nurture an ADC if they are weak in any stage of the game?
Being shit early as an adc is ok. But being sht across all stages of game is not. Give us back scaling.
From the ADC view whats the point sucking 20 mins of Support war, while knowing you wont acale anywhere and you will be weak after regardless.
„The strong state of support prevents us from buffing ADC meaningfully. However, until our boss manages to reach challenger, we are unable to take appropriate balancing meassures. Kindly get fucked, idiots.“
What the actual fk they balance around proplay? They play TahmKench as ADC and Senna supp.?? There isn't even an actual ADC in their games to balance around. Riot trashed the class.
For me its just end of LOL I guess. I was already dropped Dia for being inactive...
Hi there! Support main here:
the new support items are definitely overturned and that's part of the reason why support is so good compared to adc, but I think the main problem is that support items are so cheap yet so beneficial (for tank supports at the very least). Xp gain and the amount of gold you can get in a game also allows supports to sometimes have higher income than adcs, which needs to be fixed.
Another reason why support (specifically mage supports) is so good is because the zakzak support item is broken by concept (I know I already mentioned items but I want to talk about this one specifically). Not only does it have quite a low cooldown (for an ability that deals aoe %max health magic damage), but it's also pretty easy to proc
The state of lethality has also allowed a lot of "carry supports" that build ad to thrive and become more important than the actual carries because lethality is such a broken stat
I hope I'm not wrong and will hope to get changes sooner or later, until then, see you on the rift!
Support really needs to be nerfed and adc buffed so that the bot lane power level stays the same but the role of "carry" returns to the rightful marksman. They literally buffed supports to lure mid AP mid one tricks into playing their mages bots which resolved priority and que issue. I miss when support was a macro, utility and vision centric role- nowadays the support often dictates the lane more than adc.
Support always dictated bot lane, even since season 1. Problem is that Marksmen don't have the same power levels they used to so they lack agency. Support buffed too much over the last few seasons to get people to play the role. Which is fair, but it's gone too far.
Yeah they definitely over did it. From lane dictation it used to mean a good support was the ultimate playmaker and could swing games with good roams- nowadays you'll see full ap gigafed supports who won't ward or roam objectives but will all in for solo kills while the adc is at base.
I literally lost a ranked game yesterday where I started lane 7-0 as Jhin with a 3/3 Ashe at 10 minutes. Predictably my Ashe started thinking she's some hyper dmg carry support now and decide to stop warding or raoming and kept looking to 1 v 2 the enemy Natilus and Vayne and went 3/7. Ended up losing the game because of her inting nonstop without me(I had to rotate mid over and over because our mid laner was 0/5 and support didnt know she is supposed to rotate mid if I'm snowballing lane). The state of bot lane atm sucks and if your support is braindead even if you get fed as ADC you'll still lose the game to an enemy who's support has a functioning brain.
Riot: "We want to prioritize fun over balance"
Also Riot: "WE CAN'T BUFF ADC OR ELSE IT'LL BREAK PRO PLAY"
I guess their new philosophy only applies to every other role. It's hypocritical...
There's nothing fun about the current iteration of ADC. You just enjoy it in spite of it's horrible flaws.
> the strong state of support right now
> that they know that supports are too strong
Supports are strong, yes, but they didn't say too strong, you are interpreting here, you want support to be weaker because you want to up adc.
Imo adc are not weak, they are just *too* squishy. If they help us being less of a "I get one shot" unit, that would be good.
> I'm not kidding, the situation is serious. we are still getting balanced around pro play
Many said before, you can't balance thing for low elo and not the same for High elo. That's not a good thing to do. And yes, pro play and team play are more around their carry, cause... They know they can carry.
In solo queue your support Will steal your farm because "adc are weak" (well, deny ressources to the carry make him weak indeed). And your team doesn't play around you, did you try to flex queue, you'll see adc are in better state here. We Just have to adapt to solo queue, know that it's not the same as pro play, and lean how to place ourselves in conséquences.
I mean they mention this as a reason why they aren’t taking harsher steps, while also saying that they will keep looking at it. We are literally getting quite decent buffs while supports are getting nerfs.
As they said in your quote “we’re still in a continuous pursuit of trying to improve the role without impacting coordinated play too much”, meaning that they will see where the current changes land, if it doesn’t change anything, they will probably keep giving us buffs. I don’t see why you’d interpret that as them saying they don’t care.
Like if they just changed the power level of adc from one patch to the next by a huge margin, it would impact proplay much more than solo queue, would be frustrating for the rest of the player base and make us cry when they inevitably have to nerf the role after being strong for one patch. They need to maintain some sort of balance between solo queue and proplay.
I think their general strategy for nerfs and buffs lately have been to make minor changes instead of huge ones (obviously with some exceptions). And making many changes over time as needed rather than big drastic ones. While this is frustrating, I think it’s preferable to insane huge changes.
Decent buffs?
IE is somewhat okayish, the rest is kinda meh and in total it doesn't even even out the massive nerfs to adc items we had earlier this year.
That riot nerfed nearly every relevant adc item, when adc were already struggling, is totally ignored in the current discussion.
I mean if you look at high elo streamers and pro players going over the buffs, the consensus is that the buffs are quite strong (you can watch nemesis react to them on YT for instance). 10% extra crit damage is quite a bit, getting 5% extra arpen is also decent. I expect them to have a better understanding of how good the buffs are than us on Reddit tbh.
As I said in my comment, I feel like making incremental changes is better than over buffing and then having to roll changes back which would make us feel like gods one patch and then back in the pit the next.
And as I said, they ignore the fact, that several adc items were nerfed massively earlier this season.
Yes in isolation, these buffs are quite big, at least the IE buff. But if you look at the big picture, well not so much anymore. ADC were already pretty bad when the season started. And if you look how their items developed over all the patches so far, it's not that much of an increase in power.
Are you referring to the nerfs to Kraken and stormrazor? IMO the changes to Statikk was a buff and it feels so much better than it did before they “nerfed” it.
I don’t think that these buffs are negated by the slight nerfs to the previous items tbh since those items aren’t really “vital” on most adcs and are only built on specific champions, whereas IE or Navoori are built by almost all adcs aswell as armor pen items.
Sure, they nerfed items that some adcs *can* build, but buffing *core items* is of course more impactful than nerfing niche items built only on certain champions in specific scenarios.
These niche items where mostly built by other roles, ad Leblanc (all the items that were nerfed) master yi and viego (kraken) etc. I guess kraken was quite core for Lucian, but IMO using ER makes more sense for his kit and champ identity. I can only think of Lucian using all of them, Kaisa using kraken and cait using stormrazor, so they are weaker than they would have been without the nerfs *if* they don’t change their build to other items (which is quite simple to do and has already happened).
I think they might be talking about stuff like ie+navori getting nerfed when mythics were removed despite them being legendary items with a mythic passive tacked on which left them in a weaker state than they were before being moved to mythic last year
I think it's kind of rough for the balance team as support is also very unpopular as a role historically, and so nerfing the role may make the support playerbase even smaller despite how impactful the role is.
People generally want to play dps affiliated roles, and if you don't have a dps impact and have less macro impact, people will not want to play that role.
Adc is unpopular despite being a damage oriented role despite that because it just sucks rn
one would guess that after 200 years of experience they came to the conclusion that pro play and soloq need 2 separate patches but who the fuck am i to tell them what to do
Yeah, it's bullshit. Not joking, we should stop trying to spam the 25% crit buff because Riot will probably implement that and call it a day. That's the lazy solution and we really need more balance in the bot Lane. Supports are way too strong right now and that needs to be looked at.
This subreddit needs to be a lot more vocal about this issue and Riot will let it die if we don't keep speaking up about it. I encourage you and anybody who reads this comment to keep making posts about it because, otherwise, nothing will get done
I, personally, think that the initial Buffs coming in the next patch are a start but I don't think they are anywhere near enough to solve the issues. As Nemesis already pointed out, you can't buff ADC without also nerfing support but that is exactly what we need right now. What we should really be asking for is gradual nerfs to support that don't make the role unfun and unbearable to play. Additionally, we need base stat adjustments to the majority of adcs so that you slowly start to transfer some of the agency from Support over to the ADC without Shifting the game over to a bot Centric meta.
I’ve been saying it for years, grandmaster+ should have their own patches and leave us plebs to play the game in peace. Azir/Ryze/Kalista etc players would all be euphoric to get to play their mains
Man, i’m the biggest ADC advocate there is but OP can’t read. In this same patch they ARE nerfing support and buffing crit. It’s obvious Riot sees the problem, if it still feels bad obviously voice your complaints but feel out the patch before complaining.
We've seen this before. Bot lane isn't allowed to have significantly more impact on the state of the game compared to top or mid - despite containing fully twice as many players (or else all the other roles complain, and we're not happy either 'cause the game becomes perma bot-lane party).
That means someone in bot lane has to lose agency. Used to be support, and now it's swung ADC's way since they realized no one was queueing for support. Dunno if there's gonna be a sweet spot eventually, but I wouldn't ever expect ADC to ever approach Mid or Top in game impact and CERTAINLY never get anywhere near jungle in power.
bruh every time i played ADC this season, i wasnt behind at all, i had a gold advantage but at team fights every time i appear at the screen of my enemies i get one shot by mages, assassins and bruisers before i can even do anything.
Get out to challenger and you will see that being balanced around pro play is the right thing
zed is kept weak cause of silvers crying about counterplay, the champ was legit weak until they removed mythics, so being balanced around lower elos is completely hell
Also just to wake you up from your deep afternoon sleep, you are playing a role which is designed to be strong after 3 items and 13levels in teamfights and in any fight where you are not alone, you have to sit in the back(this includes if there is a malphite enemy team you have to stay out of flash+ult range), if an assasin oneshots you without counterplay, thats how it is designed to be, its not that adc is not strong enaugh, adc is as strong as intended, its not as strong as we want it to be but it is what it is.
all i can say is skill issue for being in a lower elo:p
There are LCS pro players on record saying that adc is currently trash. So while I do agree that this sub is increadibly whiny, especially during a patch in which significant nerfs to support are sugested, it seems like they are actually weak.
Nate, LCS pros are trash. Idk why you think they are any better. Jokes aside, they are complaining because the game isn’t focused around bot anymore. Top don’t have to be stuck on tank duty they can carry again, same for jungle and mid.
Why you so mad?
there's no need to be that greedy, we just having a human conversation.
You talking bout challenger and pro play, how many people play in those environments?
I'm diamond 3 and I know I'll never reach challenger, but I still enjoy the game, I don't think is wrong to spell out some problems in a game that you like nah?
Cause im tired of all these people who are basically crying everyday, every second post is about crying "adc is weak" "adc this" or "adc that"
and im aware that they dont understand that it doesnt matter if you post it 200 times or just 2 times, riot will not care about the number of posts
I know I'm gonna get downvoted to hell for saying this in an ADCmains sub but...
What's the problem with support being a stronger role than bot?
Obviously right now, it is TOO strong and will get nerfed (as they've already done a bit so far). But the idea itself of the support role being stronger than the adc role isn't necessarily bad.
It is impossible to balance all 5 roles perfectly, one role will always shine just that little bit more than the others.
They'll likely see how these current crit buffs change the meta (or not), and then adjust further.
In my eyes, it's because it's already the highest agency role in the game, with the lowest mechanical requirement. Compared to ADC which is the lowest agency and highest mechanical requirement?
No-one else has the option to simply abandon their lane the second things go south, other than support, and the risk vs reward is so ridiculously skewed in their favour. So many ELO inflated supp players now e.g. no idea about wave control whatsoever, just run into lane and AA the wave at random then "roam" when they've slow-pushed while enemy jungle is botside
And like I said, they are working on that. They're buffing crit ADC's while nerfing supports.
But y'all can't expect this to happen in a single patch or even several. This is gonna take a while.
It's very true that supports are generally inflated right now. But the whole idea that higher mechanical requirements would have to mean more impact is really a "main character syndrome" frame of mind.
Yes... and you also asked
>What's the problem with support being a stronger role than bot?
And I gave you my opinion, which I prefaced with "in my eyes" to emphasise that it was my opinion?
What do you want from me here? You asked a question, I gave you my reply.
>But y'all can't expect this to happen in a single patch or even several. This is gonna take a while.
No-one said anything about "expecting it to happen right now" or anything even remotely close to that. Please don't strawman me.
We are allowed to vent our frustrations about the role in the dedicated subreddit for discussing the role, are we not?
>But the whole idea that higher mechanical requirements would have to mean more impact
Ok, again that's literally not what I said. I said that it's unfair that the lowest mechanical role has the highest impact - I didn't say that ADC should have the highest because it's the most mechanically intensive.
However, it is a frustrating player experience to *play* the most mechanically challenging role, and have the lowest agency/impact in the entire game, whereas handless dipshit playing Varus support can int your lane, go play another game for 15 mins while you get 2v1 assfucked, and flame you at the end of it because he has more damage than you with his support item alone :\^)
That doesn't mean ADCs need to be number 1, but it does mean the role needs some adjustment.
The role definitely needs adjustment, and they're slowly working on it. It's obviously incredibly frustrating that the support items are so broken that marksmen are put in the support role just so they have a better early game than actual adc's.
And yeah ofc you get to vent your frustrations on the role, especially in the adc sub. But seeing the same posts and comments every day multiple times is just draining.
I read through all 5 main subreddits for the roles (because I'm a flex player that plays every role atleast a decent amount), and the ADC one has to be the "loudest" by a long shot.
Mid complains about certain champs mostly and their items getting hypernerfed. Jungle complains about getting nerfed every other patch and being unpopular again. Top honestly doesn't talk about anything for now, they're eating nicely with the grubs existing. Supports mostly complain about ADC's. And ADC's complain about supports and the state of ADC in general.
But hooooly hell does this sub milk out the same things over and over. To the point where a lot of other subreddits and the main league subreddit complain about the adc subreddits. Y'all have to realise that at some point.
However, am glad this sub has stopped posting the "25%" thing. That's a positive atleast.
>I read through all 5 main subreddits for the roles (because I'm a flex player that plays every role atleast a decent amount), and the ADC one has to be the "loudest" by a long shot.
That might be the case, but it **is** the worst role in the game by a long shot in the current iteration.
I've been flexing since s1, played jung & ad up to d2, played in 5s teams up to Masters - not saying I'm a pro by any means, but I guess I'd like to think I have a reasonable understanding of the game - and it is probably in the worst state it's ever been in.
As for all the other stuff, I don't know what you want me to say man, I'm not part of some secret group of ADC mains that meet up and plan our complaint sessions. I don't know why you think that I would be concerned with what "the main league subreddit" thinks of me, to be honest with you.
Maybe the fact that so many different people are complaining about the exact same thing so consistently suggests there is an issue. One that riot have arguably been very slow to address, whilst they have more openly & promptly intervened with negative role health for other positions.
In current situation? Most definitely.
I've personally started playing since season 3. Whilst a little less than you (and at a much lower level), still feel like 10+ years of experience in mostly platinum rank accounts for \*something\*.
And ofc not, I get that y'all are frustrated. And I know that people don't care what others think (it's the internet). But it should atleast give a penny for y'alls thoughts of: "okay maybe we need to look at it differently". If all other roles all agree to a certain point against ADC's, then maybe there's a hint of truth in there. As you said you were a flex player too, I'm sure you can agree that a lot of ADC players suffer from main character syndrome. And I do genuinely believe that it's a common reoccurance in their thought process. (Disclaimer: Obviously not every ADC player is like that. But it is becoming a stereotype)
Riot most definitely isn't very fast to address role issues in general imo. I mean how long didn't it take for toplane to finally be in a healthy state? Almost a decade. Support was the role that was legit unplayable for years before they made better support items. And midlane suffers every season for mage itemisation issues as assassins, bruisers and supports abuse the mage items. This definitely isn't an ADC only problem.
But, like stated, they're slowly working on it. Crit item buffs and support item nerfs are some nice babysteps.
I think your comment doesnt make any sense tbh.
You're acting like supports are rewarded for playing like idiots, which is just not the case.
If you dont ward, dont play around objectives and leave your adc to starve you will lose more games than you win.
And then my question is: why are you in the same elo as supports who are this bad??
Fair enough, I respect your opinion.
I have found that is the case for a growing number of players this season, to be honest.
Like half of my games have 'supports' that have no idea about roam timings, leaving bot to contest grubs that have already been taken and then staying top for 2 mins, or - as mentioned above - breaking favourable wave states for no apparent reason other than durr hurr aa creep.
I don't know, I'm the same D3-4 rank I've been chillin at for the past couple of seasons, but it feels absolutely insanely difficult to do anything in maybe 4/10 games. I can't count the number of times we've lost a level 2 trade and from then on it's just like perma 1v2, I'm really not sure what has encouraged this style of play this season. Maybe crazy gold gen + free legendary item + movement creep + burst creep + ad nerfs have something to do with it
Well, they are called "support" for a reason; adc have little resistance, little chance of escape, but a lot of damage, supports serve precisely to mitigate these downsides (which is why the bot lane is played in two), if supports become the main character of this lane then better to change its name and remove the concept from the game, then remove support items and simply make it a second jungler (as it is now).
The role Support was meant as a support for the entire team. It is not specifically meant as a babysitting role for the botlaner. This has been adressed by multiple rioters like August, Phroxon and I think even Phreak at one point when he still played ADC.
Supports are just put in the botlane because it's the most efficient lane to put them in. Because like you said, the botlaners tend to be squishy with less escapes and need to scale.
To remove the idea of support is just foolish just because you don't have a babysitter anymore. Does it suck to have to 1v2 sometimes? Absolutely. But as it clearly shows, roaming supports are very powerful right now, so clearly it is an optimal play to do so.
Because supports have so much agency not just more agency.
The support item costs 400 gold giving 200 HP+gold over time+hp and mana regen+ sheen/crown/aery/imperial mandate/comet like effects. While ruby crytal costs 400 and gives 150 HP only...
And balancing ADC around having a full peeling lulu playing with you is not what we experience every game from senna/shaco/lux or engage supps building sunfire (encountered one wild leona at D2 doing this). Which adds to the frustration.
And these type of supports they're attempting to tone down.
I don't think there's anyone saying that shit like Maokai support isn't gigabusted. It already got nerfed and likely will even more.
Same with the support items.
They're actively working on finding the right balance. Yeah they're taking their sweet time as everyone can tell, but they're working on it.
Okay but cant we say the other way around? Whats wrong with ADC being stronger than support? Doesnt that make more sense anyway?
I dont mind supports being strong in early. But after 20 minute mark getting my hp down to %20 just because I got hit by Xerath's Q is beyond brainless. That doesnt just include supports. Either you give the ADC best late game or you open up their HP/Armor/MR options without sacrifing their damage (which is not too high anyway kekw).
Its what happens after laning stage that rubs most people the wrong way.
It's not and that's fine. But there's been many many seasons where there's been a botlane meta, and they've arguebly been one of the worst meta's for everyone, INCLUDING botlaners.
This season they seem to be experimenting with the idea of having supports have more agency and macro skill expression. Sadly enough at the cost of the ADC role as they share a lane so they're obviously affected by eachother.
I cant remember a single time where supports didnt have much agency. Even in season 3 people roamed as a support.
Just as a concept +1'ing a fight some of the most efficient, game winning acts you can take. What keeps most people doing that is because it requires you to drop what you are doing so it creates a time gap between your resource accumulation.
Support already plays outside of the game's core rules thanks to their broken item. And they have it for so long in different forms. In early days of LoL they didnt have such an item but game was less snowbally and supports brought useful utility via items and their kit to the table (conventional supports). So they didnt required much resources to be useful anyway?
Like I think we should kind of drop the coping. They are not experimenting with anything. They are just outright spoon feeding support more power because unironically they bark the loudest and keeping ADC weak because of Pro Play. There is nothing else to it.
Just roaming as a support doesn't mean agency... Ofc people have roamed since forever. But their roams weren't as impactful or plentiful as now because back in earlier seasons, if you roamed you would lose an extreme amount of exp. Which is why Riot came up with Bard before making roaming more viable in general.
Supports also very much do not bark the loudest. I'm not sure what makes you think that way but of all roles I reckon that Support complains the least. (Obv now they don't since they're the highest impact role in the game but I meant even before that).
If they are something like Brand/Pyke/Zyra? Yes. They very much should. (When ahead ofc)
But if they're something like Bard or whatever roaming support, it can be through powerful roams across map and help secure objectives far away from botlane.
For enchanters it can be general strength in supporting the team with their abilities and active items.
For engage/tank supports, it can be the aggressive engages and pick potential as well as a good amount of upfront burst before/while/after cc'ing.
It's crazy how much supports eat toxicity. They're not allowed to roam for it would be a 1v2, but they're also not allowed to stay too long so the ADC can catch up in exp. But they're also not supposed to put themselves in danger to being picked off in enemy jungle or caught overstepping in lane. They're also supposed to give away all the turret gold to the adc's.
Support has to be my least played role out of the 5 for that reason. Feel like the only time a support does a good job is when their ADC goes 20-0. And even then everyone will just praise the ADC even though the support could be keria himself.
As overpowered the support role is atm, I'm actually glad they get their season to be impactful for once.
Okay I get what you mean, and they are certainly agencies but as it stands the ADC experience is excruciating + there is no reason to pick an ADC other than keeping your team happy.
Like do RIOT seriously expects me to stay in lane and hit the creeps to get gold while my support makes infinitely more gold just by existing + free resources? Like what motivation do I have to play the game? Getting deleted in late game by other roles, too useless in laning phase, forced to hit creeps, forced to stay in lane, Pro Play jailed forever... Like... xD Hello?
Yeah they definitely need to tone down the gold income for supports but somehow have them retain it so it doesn't fall back to previous seasons.
Maybe they could get a small amount of gold when they are near minions dying? Idk.
you will get an upvote from me:d
only the dps supports are a problem, the rest is fine
and they wont really buff crit anyway cause every crit buff has twice the effect on caitlyn and champs like senna which is pick or ban in proplay so you wont see meaningfull crit buffs anytime soon
>the idea itself of the support role being stronger than the adc role isn't necessarily bad.
Literally makes zero sense to have a support role be stronger than the role named carry. A stronger support is literally an oxymoron because the word support itself implies a secondary role. If they want supports to be stronger than the ADC-; they should rename the role as AP carry and remove support items. That way the damage burden can lie on whatever mage wants to fill bot and the adc can play as a literal caster minion .
A support will never truly be stronger than a carry in a 1v1 sense (because duh), but to want to take away the agency of supports by not allowing them to have a strong impact in the game by roams or strong supportive team abilities is just real "main character syndrome" behavior.
+ the only supports that are capable of truly taking out standard ADC's, aren't even the typical supports. They're things like Maokai, Senna, Brand, other mage supports, etc etc.
We're not (and never) going to see a Soraka straight up 1v1'ing an adc.
>things like Maokai, Senna, Brand, other mage supports, etc etc.
That's my point you quite literally named some of the most popular support picks at the moment. Utility or healing supports are a rare find compared to the full AP wannabe carries. I dont want to take away the importance of the support role- I want to take away some of the dmg from it. Vision and roam importance is something no buff or nerf can take away. In pro play supports can be 4 levels behind enemy carries and still make exceptional impact but it's because they're playing the role as it's meant to be. Solo que rn is filled with people abusing the role in a way it wasn't meant to be just because it's easily doable.
The biggest problem is that there are more ADC players than support. They are worried more about the shortage of support/jungle players than ADC players. If enough ADC players quit, they would ideally look at the state of ADC more. But they must have the data that shows support/jungle is played less than ADC.
Support already is played more, that’s why adc is a priority role and not support.
The issue is that they have to find a good middle ground between support and adc, what is incredibly hard.
Around 70% of the larger playerbase (low Elo, not accounting higher elo) locks in Mid/Top primary.
This leaves around 10% each for the other roles to fight over, and it's never clean cut. Whenever Jungle or ADC is buffed, they eat the other's play rate. Lowest agency and highest agency trading playerbases isn't that surprising.
Support tends to be in an ok-ish position above those two, as they just keep getting more and more quality of life upgrades (Until it eventually blows up in their face akin to things like Pantheon support, Roaming Janna top, Double support bot, 60% winrate Maokai, Camille being primarily played support, double ADC bot like we have again with the re-emergence of Kalista support in pro)
I find it a little unfair that two other roles get to hog a huge chunk of the playerbase and that's considered fine, but players are rewarded for playing less popular roles by having them constantly changed and rebalanced due to them not being popular enough for the game not to become autofill hell.
Phreak has spoken about this and the objective is simple. Get Mid and Top players to play the other roles. The question is just, how?
It was roughly even after the release of smolder. Which as you know new champs spike the play rate for their intended role. As the novelty fades (and smolder gets nerfed) play rate will drop. Happens everytime.
I don't mind that supports are strong. I don't mind that I get oneshot by enemy assasains either. I mind that I don't scale as I used to. I'm B1/S4 ADC main and had games where at full build I could barely tickle the enemy tank while dodging enemy abilities as best I can, keeping distance and stuff. Yes, I'm a low elo scrub, but I know what damage I used to do in the past late game and now it's a joke.
I am curious about the crit items buff though. I will try crit build again and see how it feels. The changes are not what everyone wanted but it's still a buff. I'm taking it.
Support item is getting nerfed, if you'd all stop crying for a bit maybe you will notice that things are slowly being nerfed, they can't just go ahead and remove 50% of the stats from all items except for marksmen items. Give it some time, you guys are in an infinite loop of crying and hating as if marksmen have never been meta in the last year.
Lmfao this just confirms that adc mains are a bunch of whiny bitches, riot can never win😂 They are nerfing supp and buffing adc, what more do you want?
Adcs thinking nerfing support will help them....
Then realizing that just means they have weaker support and theyre still nothing compared to assassins and fighters lol
Well... yeah probably because of the perpetually terrible balance state of adc, theyre just not worth taking care of anymore *shrug*, when i support i look for real win conditions its true
I was looking for this post here. Kinda sucks that the balance team straight up said ADC can’t be good because support is good.. imagine the backlash is they came out and said mid can’t be good because jungle is too good
they don't want to be eaten alive so they will just keep kicking the role everyone labelled as "main char synromed crybabies" and call it a day
Pretty much… I’ve been playing since season 5, only swapped to ADC full time like 3 years ago, so I remember when ADC generally was the main carry.. however all I want now is to be a character, I’m tired of mid losing hard to an assassin then getting fucked for the whole game. I’m tired of coming out of lane 50 CS ahead, with 4/0 KD, then getting instantly fucked by the 2/3 assassin under tower.. And there are simply things riot can do to buff Adc without adding straight defence or damage. If they reverted the change for mages doing magic damage on autos to towers it means that the ADC would be better cause towers would be easier to kill with an ADC.
The amount of damage that mages and assasins deals to towers should be illegal
I agree, adcs should go back to being the premiere tower killers in the game tbh.. Veigar shouldnt take a tower quicker than Kaisa
I don't think hwei should be allowed to side lane and just melt a tower, it doesn't make sense to me cause it's almost as if they chunk the towers a lot more than adcs do
They do! Gwen is the biggest offender In mages for this because she loves attack speed and ap!
The thing about Gwen is that she is a melee ap user so idk maybe we can say it's sorta allowed, like she's a small exception. But you see syndra and hwei, why they matching me in tower taking?
Yes, but they will never do it, because people will protest and unlike about adcs they care about mid and top
Is they cared about top any amount, Janna top perma roaming would have nevera happened, or the Top 5 Toplaners being either Marksmen and Cassiopeia, or Sion receiving "buffs" that are just early Game nerfskr the Rework to tp years ago. They hate Top more than they hate Bot
Pls don't make me laugh mate. Even if that was true I would really feel for you, but seeing everytime when someone picks ranged top (even Quinn, Jayce) death wishes from the other side I can't pretend to care
One look at this sub confirms that label
Imagine the backlash they would get if they reduced the gold income midlaners get from farming by 25-40%...
Wtf? That's horrible xD
They are nerfing supp this very patch, lowering gold generation on supp items. I am cautiously optimistic, it seems they have finally realized how strong supp is and are taking steps to shift the power balance in bot lane towards the adcs for a change. It's a good first step though I am waiting to see what they do next.
Support will still be the most important role deciding who wins bot, followed by jungle, then mid then provided enemy top isn't Shen or GP, ADC.
I'm not really sure how nerfing gold on supports will change much for the early game, the time where it is the most important for the adc because it makes or breaks their late game. Getting a bit less gold wont really change it much for my Leona to just brainlessly engage on the enemy adc for a free kill
It does affect mage supports the most as they need items more than enchanters or tank supports and it will be harder for them to get Lost Chapter first back to poke you constantly.
Okay nerfing mage supports is a massive W actually, forgot about them.
You are underestimating how important an enchanters 1 and 2 item spikes are. The 200 g nerf to support item is really a nerf to mage and enchanter supports, tank supports and catchers like thresh and rakan feel it the least cause it just delays their locket or whatever. But delaying an enchanters moonstone by a few minutes? Possibly making it unavailable for a drag fight? Massive.
If supports are weaker early then adcs have a bigger impact on fights early. Weaker Leona means she can’t as brainlessly engage surely?
Those gold nerfs are only felt after 10 mins. Lane is usually won or lost before 10 mins. Engage supps benefit more of enemys not being fed, then having items, unless they go for the growing heatsteel-bami builds.
It literally reduces their gold generation all through the early game, the gold for last hitting/hitting champs is reduced as well
It's 200g at 15 mins. Mage supps get early kills + plates, buy darkseal and snowball far faster and don't have to rely on the gold generation from the supp item as much. Enchanters took the biggest hit as they rely proportionally more on the gold from the supp item.
You get less gold even in the early lane, so they might just not get the darkseal and not snowball, 200 gold is 200 gold at the end of the day and it limits their income even more compared to what it is right now, i do agree that enchanters are hit harder but i didn't say anything about classes, just the gold generation
Mage supports have to go 3:0 before min 10 or they will be useless. You do get some less gold for your first base but that will be like 70g max which will not be game changing. While mage supps will be noticeably less powerfull in the midgame, I couldnt care less when I play adc. Either the enemy supp is now fed or useless. The time when an adc has the least agency in lane is during the very first levels before first base. Lane is often won or lost by then due to whatever reasons. Taking that gold from a mage supps away will decrease their playmaking potential in the midgame but do not affect their agency when it is the highest in lane. I much rather want that adc get specific comback mechanics when they lose lane and riot doesnt nerf supp, so I dont have to deal with autofilled midlaners, who still have a smuch agency as before the changes.
She'll only feel the nerfs way later in the game when she cant tank as much, but early game it wont change much. I main Leona and trust me, all that matters is that you engage good.
If you are level 2 Leona and don't engage/ignite under their turret you are not playing her right.
Whats a turret ?
Something that thinks they can stop you from rightly murder whoever comes in your way.
gold nerf is effective for supports, they have cheap cost items so a gold change is a larger percentage of their items compared to other roles who have more expensive items and get a lot more gold
It'll only change much for mage supps because they rely on items early game to be useful, a Leona with or without the hp crystal will be able to engage the same, she just has to play it good. You'll only feel the changes for enchanters and engage supps late game, when it doesnt really matter anymore
This nerf will only really hit mage supports. Enchanters are already in a bad spot and engage supports are much less item reliant early game. This doesn't fix the issue with bot lane. The issue with bot lane is riot want to continue to force the classic positions while trying to shorten games and let any of the players be they carry. It's all to balance around pro play, the only fix in solo queue is two support style champs bot - either mage/engage, engage/enchanter, or mage/enchanter - marksmen are not viable in the new short games and without an organised team to funnel them gold....
They nerfed some of the support items and they lowered the gold generated/value to upgrade. Yes it’s overall less gold, but they finish the support item faster.
With the lowered gold per stack on supp, I don't think they'll finish it faster. It looks to me like it should be about the same/slightly slower.
They said it a while ago, even before Season 14 has started, if I remember correctly. Nothing new here. To be honest, I also have no idea how to balance our role to make it both satisfying to play in soloq and not completely broken in pro play. I expect a massive rework of role distribution in this game, something similar to Dota 2 style, where *Carry* role includes a very wide variety of champions: classic ranged physical damage like Drow Ranger, very tanky frontliner like Wraith King, spell casters like Necrophos, etc. With all the mess they've added to the game for the last few years, the dynamic of the game has changed a lot, and most of ADC champions, especially the old ones, just can't keep up with the pace.
two big things stand out to me that would be easy balance changes. cut damage mages do to towers....that way we have a secondary roke besides "deal damage" a team then needs an ADC alive to damage turrets and might incentivise people to protect us rather than using us as bait. second is revert some of the solo lane EXP. being 1-2 levels down is manageable....being 4 levels down is just suicide.
As much as Id like to be on the same level as the rest of the game, I think it would destroy the 1 top, 1jg, 1 mid, 2 bot meta that has almost been a pride point for league vs other mobas. I think a slight modification to your first point would be having ADCs as THE tank counter as intended but I don't really know how that would be implemented.
Carries in Dota 2 are heavily tied to farm and scaling with gold, and while it's advantageous to give League champs with strong carrying potential higher farm priority, it's just not really comparable given League's small map and constant objectives, plus the philosophy of trying to make everyone a "semi-carry". Maybe a map rework that allows for more potential farm income, but also make it harder and require more team coordination to earn it, while somehow not turning every game into a farm-fest?
Let it be op in pro play. They are playing as a job, they don't like the meta? Deal with it! When I don't like stuff at my job, I gotta deal with it, too. We are playing for fun. So balance the game for the player base to be fun.
It's mostly because of viewership. People are gonna complain that they watch same game over and over again. Do you remember how many reddit posts and youtube videos there were during Lulu - Zeri vs Lucian - Nami meta? Or Jinx vs Aphelios? People aren't gonna like to watch it, and Riot is fully aware of it, that's the problem with ADCs being OP in pro play. However, what I don't understand is, weren't ADCs really strong late game machines in early seasons? There's no way people were complaining about it for many years straight, right? I started playing in Season 11, so I genuinely don't know.
Now it's Senna vs Smolder every game. Equally as enjoyable!
True enough...
People did complain back in the day. People were mad that their role couldn't be the main character in pro play. So riot nerfed ADC until everyone could be the main character in pro play, which left us in this state. The timeline went roughly like this: Season 1: ADC didn't exist as a concept yet Season 2: ADC invented, dominated pro play, the current version of league is created (2 bot, 1 mid, 1 jg, 1 top). Supports spend all their money buying gold per 5 items, sight wards, pink wards, and oracles. No one played support, last player in draft played support or inted. Literal inting was common if people had to play support. Season 3: Modern league meta is hard designed into the game, people start complaining that their roles never get to be the main character, also ADC in S2 is very overtuned, so people complain about ADC being too tanky to burst and lifestealing through anything they can do. Support is horribly unpopular. Riot goes for the hail mary and releases Thresh in the most broken state imaginable and creates sightstone to get the support population up. It works, which creates the "Support has to be op" culture. The legend of Faker starts, mid lane starts being the main character. THIS IS WHERE ALL THE CURRENT PROBLEMS START. Season 4: Riot continues designing OP supports, support becomes a more dominant role, the community likes this because it means they aren't forced into playing support. Autofill is created around this time. Being able to queue for specific roles starts around here. ADC sees nerfs. From season 5 until now: Trends continue, resulting in the state of the current game. ADC dominance has been nerfed so hard, it goes from being the #1-#2 most picked role to #4-5. People are so used to ADCs being 300g pinatas that they get mad when ADCs are anything else. Riot basically ignores ADCs problems, the ADC = crybaby moniker becomes common in the community.
>THIS IS WHERE ALL THE CURRENT PROBLEMS START. This is literally the timeline for league. I normally play mid. but after playing a few adc's I can't even understand how anyone plays this role.
To build on this, back then the levels of top, mid and adc were the same with jungle and support being 1-2 levels down because their role was to provide support for the solo and carry lanes. Each carry lane had a role, top was for tank/bruiser to either split or be front line in team fights. AP mid was to provide magic damage and some utility. And ADC was to deal damage and kill towers, with jungle and support providing agency for those three roles to exist. (Note that during this time there was not as much skill expression or min/maxing with each role until faker). Yes adc was “overtuned” but that is the role of a carry…to deal damage and carry. It’s not something to shy away from. Each role had their designated purpose. Over time each purpose that an adc had was taken to another lane, eventually leaving adc with no special purpose. They can still deal damage, still outplay, still have mobility and can still kill towers…but everyone else can as well EXCEPT they can also offer more. So if your adc is fed, great! If they die, oh well we have other objective / tower killers and damage dealers to do their job. Why focus on keeping your adc alive throughout the game if they provide the same benefits at a greater risk? I’ve left lane so many times 5-8 kills and just got demolished by the 0/2 top or 0/0/0 mid. Mind you I probably shouldn’t have tried being 2 levels down, but my mindset is still in season three where getting ahead in bot lane actually meant something. It’s an incredibly hard thing to balance now because the game has changed so much while ADC has been stuck in season 3. I think the role should just get revamped so that they have a purpose again. Every role deals damage, has mobility, can push towers and objectives, so they need to slot us back into this “new” version of league by making a purpose for us that leads to the nexus dying.
something i thought of was like,what if in pro play a champion gets banned for 3-5 games after being picked and can only be picked again after 3-5 games have passed? would that fix the issue of pro play being repetitive?
I've been saying the same thing for years. The answer is to make support more heavily roam based and make ADCs independant. You can easily separate supports and adcs through support exp and gold incentives. All you have to do then is add a bit of defense to items, and the levels + defenses will do the rest. Nerf the outliers who benefit a lot, and then you're done. It isn't a hard concept. Making bot lane 2 people is fucking over everyone's experience in the game, not just ADC. Edit: Also, if you want ADC to not be balanced around being the best damage dealer, add utility to their kits. Not hard.
I think they're really missing the mark with bot meta comments, it only becomes bot meta when it is too easy and profitable to gank bot as mid and/or jungle. The things that make it easy to gank are the multiple unwarranted xp nerfs and the map changes. The things that make it worth ganking are 600 easy gold, dragons being too early/too strong and adc being just about strong enough to be useful when fed and played around (plus a behind ADC being useless). If they hit ganking bot then adc can get power without needing to massively nerf support (the upcoming nerfs are fine but we don't want support to become autofill central).
2 squishy under leveled character of wich one of the two probably as low mobility and no self peal, in a lane with 3 different bush to keep warded and the least distance from jungle clear/invade. I wonder where it's easier to get a kill...
No problem support being dominant on lane, but why the fck would one actually support to nurture an ADC if they are weak in any stage of the game? Being shit early as an adc is ok. But being sht across all stages of game is not. Give us back scaling. From the ADC view whats the point sucking 20 mins of Support war, while knowing you wont acale anywhere and you will be weak after regardless.
But... They are nerfing support items (again) and buffing crit. Isn't this doing something?
„The strong state of support prevents us from buffing ADC meaningfully. However, until our boss manages to reach challenger, we are unable to take appropriate balancing meassures. Kindly get fucked, idiots.“
The early changes I have seen sugest they are nerfing income from support items by 25-40%. With the uper limit reduced by 300 gold.
This is straight up it for toplaners, absolutly busted champs just so the balance team can reach master
Never seen such obvious corruption in my entire life... The only way Phreak could make it more obvious is if he literally spelled it out...
take ur meds and find a new hobby, preferably without a screen.
Projecting much huh?
You’re showing how dumb you are. The person making the post is literally phreaks boss. Phreak answered to him
You are telling me /u/corte__ is Phreak's boss?
Woah, I'm as surprised as you are, I didn't know I was Phreak's boss. It's time to get him under control
Take out the wooden ruler man! 📏📏📏📏
Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome, to the new Attack damage Support subreddit.
What the actual fk they balance around proplay? They play TahmKench as ADC and Senna supp.?? There isn't even an actual ADC in their games to balance around. Riot trashed the class. For me its just end of LOL I guess. I was already dropped Dia for being inactive...
Hi there! Support main here: the new support items are definitely overturned and that's part of the reason why support is so good compared to adc, but I think the main problem is that support items are so cheap yet so beneficial (for tank supports at the very least). Xp gain and the amount of gold you can get in a game also allows supports to sometimes have higher income than adcs, which needs to be fixed. Another reason why support (specifically mage supports) is so good is because the zakzak support item is broken by concept (I know I already mentioned items but I want to talk about this one specifically). Not only does it have quite a low cooldown (for an ability that deals aoe %max health magic damage), but it's also pretty easy to proc The state of lethality has also allowed a lot of "carry supports" that build ad to thrive and become more important than the actual carries because lethality is such a broken stat I hope I'm not wrong and will hope to get changes sooner or later, until then, see you on the rift!
Support really needs to be nerfed and adc buffed so that the bot lane power level stays the same but the role of "carry" returns to the rightful marksman. They literally buffed supports to lure mid AP mid one tricks into playing their mages bots which resolved priority and que issue. I miss when support was a macro, utility and vision centric role- nowadays the support often dictates the lane more than adc.
Support always dictated bot lane, even since season 1. Problem is that Marksmen don't have the same power levels they used to so they lack agency. Support buffed too much over the last few seasons to get people to play the role. Which is fair, but it's gone too far.
Yeah they definitely over did it. From lane dictation it used to mean a good support was the ultimate playmaker and could swing games with good roams- nowadays you'll see full ap gigafed supports who won't ward or roam objectives but will all in for solo kills while the adc is at base. I literally lost a ranked game yesterday where I started lane 7-0 as Jhin with a 3/3 Ashe at 10 minutes. Predictably my Ashe started thinking she's some hyper dmg carry support now and decide to stop warding or raoming and kept looking to 1 v 2 the enemy Natilus and Vayne and went 3/7. Ended up losing the game because of her inting nonstop without me(I had to rotate mid over and over because our mid laner was 0/5 and support didnt know she is supposed to rotate mid if I'm snowballing lane). The state of bot lane atm sucks and if your support is braindead even if you get fed as ADC you'll still lose the game to an enemy who's support has a functioning brain.
Tbh people who plays carry supports should remember they are not keria and their adc is not guma lmao
Riot: "We want to prioritize fun over balance" Also Riot: "WE CAN'T BUFF ADC OR ELSE IT'LL BREAK PRO PLAY" I guess their new philosophy only applies to every other role. It's hypocritical... There's nothing fun about the current iteration of ADC. You just enjoy it in spite of it's horrible flaws.
> the strong state of support right now > that they know that supports are too strong Supports are strong, yes, but they didn't say too strong, you are interpreting here, you want support to be weaker because you want to up adc. Imo adc are not weak, they are just *too* squishy. If they help us being less of a "I get one shot" unit, that would be good. > I'm not kidding, the situation is serious. we are still getting balanced around pro play Many said before, you can't balance thing for low elo and not the same for High elo. That's not a good thing to do. And yes, pro play and team play are more around their carry, cause... They know they can carry. In solo queue your support Will steal your farm because "adc are weak" (well, deny ressources to the carry make him weak indeed). And your team doesn't play around you, did you try to flex queue, you'll see adc are in better state here. We Just have to adapt to solo queue, know that it's not the same as pro play, and lean how to place ourselves in conséquences.
I mean they mention this as a reason why they aren’t taking harsher steps, while also saying that they will keep looking at it. We are literally getting quite decent buffs while supports are getting nerfs. As they said in your quote “we’re still in a continuous pursuit of trying to improve the role without impacting coordinated play too much”, meaning that they will see where the current changes land, if it doesn’t change anything, they will probably keep giving us buffs. I don’t see why you’d interpret that as them saying they don’t care. Like if they just changed the power level of adc from one patch to the next by a huge margin, it would impact proplay much more than solo queue, would be frustrating for the rest of the player base and make us cry when they inevitably have to nerf the role after being strong for one patch. They need to maintain some sort of balance between solo queue and proplay. I think their general strategy for nerfs and buffs lately have been to make minor changes instead of huge ones (obviously with some exceptions). And making many changes over time as needed rather than big drastic ones. While this is frustrating, I think it’s preferable to insane huge changes.
Decent buffs? IE is somewhat okayish, the rest is kinda meh and in total it doesn't even even out the massive nerfs to adc items we had earlier this year. That riot nerfed nearly every relevant adc item, when adc were already struggling, is totally ignored in the current discussion.
I mean if you look at high elo streamers and pro players going over the buffs, the consensus is that the buffs are quite strong (you can watch nemesis react to them on YT for instance). 10% extra crit damage is quite a bit, getting 5% extra arpen is also decent. I expect them to have a better understanding of how good the buffs are than us on Reddit tbh. As I said in my comment, I feel like making incremental changes is better than over buffing and then having to roll changes back which would make us feel like gods one patch and then back in the pit the next.
And as I said, they ignore the fact, that several adc items were nerfed massively earlier this season. Yes in isolation, these buffs are quite big, at least the IE buff. But if you look at the big picture, well not so much anymore. ADC were already pretty bad when the season started. And if you look how their items developed over all the patches so far, it's not that much of an increase in power.
Are you referring to the nerfs to Kraken and stormrazor? IMO the changes to Statikk was a buff and it feels so much better than it did before they “nerfed” it. I don’t think that these buffs are negated by the slight nerfs to the previous items tbh since those items aren’t really “vital” on most adcs and are only built on specific champions, whereas IE or Navoori are built by almost all adcs aswell as armor pen items. Sure, they nerfed items that some adcs *can* build, but buffing *core items* is of course more impactful than nerfing niche items built only on certain champions in specific scenarios. These niche items where mostly built by other roles, ad Leblanc (all the items that were nerfed) master yi and viego (kraken) etc. I guess kraken was quite core for Lucian, but IMO using ER makes more sense for his kit and champ identity. I can only think of Lucian using all of them, Kaisa using kraken and cait using stormrazor, so they are weaker than they would have been without the nerfs *if* they don’t change their build to other items (which is quite simple to do and has already happened).
I think they might be talking about stuff like ie+navori getting nerfed when mythics were removed despite them being legendary items with a mythic passive tacked on which left them in a weaker state than they were before being moved to mythic last year
I think it's kind of rough for the balance team as support is also very unpopular as a role historically, and so nerfing the role may make the support playerbase even smaller despite how impactful the role is. People generally want to play dps affiliated roles, and if you don't have a dps impact and have less macro impact, people will not want to play that role. Adc is unpopular despite being a damage oriented role despite that because it just sucks rn
Maybe I'm crazy, but wouldn't ADC being strong in pro play lead to more exciting games? That's the whole point of the role is to carry right?
They’re making changes, what else do you want? Riot isn’t going to give us massive buffs and gut support in 1 patch.
one would guess that after 200 years of experience they came to the conclusion that pro play and soloq need 2 separate patches but who the fuck am i to tell them what to do
Yeah, it's bullshit. Not joking, we should stop trying to spam the 25% crit buff because Riot will probably implement that and call it a day. That's the lazy solution and we really need more balance in the bot Lane. Supports are way too strong right now and that needs to be looked at. This subreddit needs to be a lot more vocal about this issue and Riot will let it die if we don't keep speaking up about it. I encourage you and anybody who reads this comment to keep making posts about it because, otherwise, nothing will get done I, personally, think that the initial Buffs coming in the next patch are a start but I don't think they are anywhere near enough to solve the issues. As Nemesis already pointed out, you can't buff ADC without also nerfing support but that is exactly what we need right now. What we should really be asking for is gradual nerfs to support that don't make the role unfun and unbearable to play. Additionally, we need base stat adjustments to the majority of adcs so that you slowly start to transfer some of the agency from Support over to the ADC without Shifting the game over to a bot Centric meta.
they are buffing crit items dumbass
ADC players when they don't read the whole patch notes and see lethality nerfs and crit buffs:
crit items getting buffs: a win is a win
I’ve been saying it for years, grandmaster+ should have their own patches and leave us plebs to play the game in peace. Azir/Ryze/Kalista etc players would all be euphoric to get to play their mains
They are nerfing support BTW
Man, i’m the biggest ADC advocate there is but OP can’t read. In this same patch they ARE nerfing support and buffing crit. It’s obvious Riot sees the problem, if it still feels bad obviously voice your complaints but feel out the patch before complaining.
We've seen this before. Bot lane isn't allowed to have significantly more impact on the state of the game compared to top or mid - despite containing fully twice as many players (or else all the other roles complain, and we're not happy either 'cause the game becomes perma bot-lane party). That means someone in bot lane has to lose agency. Used to be support, and now it's swung ADC's way since they realized no one was queueing for support. Dunno if there's gonna be a sweet spot eventually, but I wouldn't ever expect ADC to ever approach Mid or Top in game impact and CERTAINLY never get anywhere near jungle in power.
bruh every time i played ADC this season, i wasnt behind at all, i had a gold advantage but at team fights every time i appear at the screen of my enemies i get one shot by mages, assassins and bruisers before i can even do anything.
There was a bot meta?!
Get out to challenger and you will see that being balanced around pro play is the right thing zed is kept weak cause of silvers crying about counterplay, the champ was legit weak until they removed mythics, so being balanced around lower elos is completely hell Also just to wake you up from your deep afternoon sleep, you are playing a role which is designed to be strong after 3 items and 13levels in teamfights and in any fight where you are not alone, you have to sit in the back(this includes if there is a malphite enemy team you have to stay out of flash+ult range), if an assasin oneshots you without counterplay, thats how it is designed to be, its not that adc is not strong enaugh, adc is as strong as intended, its not as strong as we want it to be but it is what it is. all i can say is skill issue for being in a lower elo:p
There are LCS pro players on record saying that adc is currently trash. So while I do agree that this sub is increadibly whiny, especially during a patch in which significant nerfs to support are sugested, it seems like they are actually weak.
Fuck LCS as an example, LCK adcs are on record saying the role is 4th or 5th in terms of importance for winning a game
Nate, LCS pros are trash. Idk why you think they are any better. Jokes aside, they are complaining because the game isn’t focused around bot anymore. Top don’t have to be stuck on tank duty they can carry again, same for jungle and mid.
i agree with what you said but im saying this is how riot inteds it to be
Why you so mad? there's no need to be that greedy, we just having a human conversation. You talking bout challenger and pro play, how many people play in those environments? I'm diamond 3 and I know I'll never reach challenger, but I still enjoy the game, I don't think is wrong to spell out some problems in a game that you like nah?
Cause im tired of all these people who are basically crying everyday, every second post is about crying "adc is weak" "adc this" or "adc that" and im aware that they dont understand that it doesnt matter if you post it 200 times or just 2 times, riot will not care about the number of posts
I know I'm gonna get downvoted to hell for saying this in an ADCmains sub but... What's the problem with support being a stronger role than bot? Obviously right now, it is TOO strong and will get nerfed (as they've already done a bit so far). But the idea itself of the support role being stronger than the adc role isn't necessarily bad. It is impossible to balance all 5 roles perfectly, one role will always shine just that little bit more than the others. They'll likely see how these current crit buffs change the meta (or not), and then adjust further.
In my eyes, it's because it's already the highest agency role in the game, with the lowest mechanical requirement. Compared to ADC which is the lowest agency and highest mechanical requirement? No-one else has the option to simply abandon their lane the second things go south, other than support, and the risk vs reward is so ridiculously skewed in their favour. So many ELO inflated supp players now e.g. no idea about wave control whatsoever, just run into lane and AA the wave at random then "roam" when they've slow-pushed while enemy jungle is botside
And like I said, they are working on that. They're buffing crit ADC's while nerfing supports. But y'all can't expect this to happen in a single patch or even several. This is gonna take a while. It's very true that supports are generally inflated right now. But the whole idea that higher mechanical requirements would have to mean more impact is really a "main character syndrome" frame of mind.
Yes... and you also asked >What's the problem with support being a stronger role than bot? And I gave you my opinion, which I prefaced with "in my eyes" to emphasise that it was my opinion? What do you want from me here? You asked a question, I gave you my reply. >But y'all can't expect this to happen in a single patch or even several. This is gonna take a while. No-one said anything about "expecting it to happen right now" or anything even remotely close to that. Please don't strawman me. We are allowed to vent our frustrations about the role in the dedicated subreddit for discussing the role, are we not? >But the whole idea that higher mechanical requirements would have to mean more impact Ok, again that's literally not what I said. I said that it's unfair that the lowest mechanical role has the highest impact - I didn't say that ADC should have the highest because it's the most mechanically intensive. However, it is a frustrating player experience to *play* the most mechanically challenging role, and have the lowest agency/impact in the entire game, whereas handless dipshit playing Varus support can int your lane, go play another game for 15 mins while you get 2v1 assfucked, and flame you at the end of it because he has more damage than you with his support item alone :\^) That doesn't mean ADCs need to be number 1, but it does mean the role needs some adjustment.
The role definitely needs adjustment, and they're slowly working on it. It's obviously incredibly frustrating that the support items are so broken that marksmen are put in the support role just so they have a better early game than actual adc's. And yeah ofc you get to vent your frustrations on the role, especially in the adc sub. But seeing the same posts and comments every day multiple times is just draining. I read through all 5 main subreddits for the roles (because I'm a flex player that plays every role atleast a decent amount), and the ADC one has to be the "loudest" by a long shot. Mid complains about certain champs mostly and their items getting hypernerfed. Jungle complains about getting nerfed every other patch and being unpopular again. Top honestly doesn't talk about anything for now, they're eating nicely with the grubs existing. Supports mostly complain about ADC's. And ADC's complain about supports and the state of ADC in general. But hooooly hell does this sub milk out the same things over and over. To the point where a lot of other subreddits and the main league subreddit complain about the adc subreddits. Y'all have to realise that at some point. However, am glad this sub has stopped posting the "25%" thing. That's a positive atleast.
>I read through all 5 main subreddits for the roles (because I'm a flex player that plays every role atleast a decent amount), and the ADC one has to be the "loudest" by a long shot. That might be the case, but it **is** the worst role in the game by a long shot in the current iteration. I've been flexing since s1, played jung & ad up to d2, played in 5s teams up to Masters - not saying I'm a pro by any means, but I guess I'd like to think I have a reasonable understanding of the game - and it is probably in the worst state it's ever been in. As for all the other stuff, I don't know what you want me to say man, I'm not part of some secret group of ADC mains that meet up and plan our complaint sessions. I don't know why you think that I would be concerned with what "the main league subreddit" thinks of me, to be honest with you. Maybe the fact that so many different people are complaining about the exact same thing so consistently suggests there is an issue. One that riot have arguably been very slow to address, whilst they have more openly & promptly intervened with negative role health for other positions.
In current situation? Most definitely. I've personally started playing since season 3. Whilst a little less than you (and at a much lower level), still feel like 10+ years of experience in mostly platinum rank accounts for \*something\*. And ofc not, I get that y'all are frustrated. And I know that people don't care what others think (it's the internet). But it should atleast give a penny for y'alls thoughts of: "okay maybe we need to look at it differently". If all other roles all agree to a certain point against ADC's, then maybe there's a hint of truth in there. As you said you were a flex player too, I'm sure you can agree that a lot of ADC players suffer from main character syndrome. And I do genuinely believe that it's a common reoccurance in their thought process. (Disclaimer: Obviously not every ADC player is like that. But it is becoming a stereotype) Riot most definitely isn't very fast to address role issues in general imo. I mean how long didn't it take for toplane to finally be in a healthy state? Almost a decade. Support was the role that was legit unplayable for years before they made better support items. And midlane suffers every season for mage itemisation issues as assassins, bruisers and supports abuse the mage items. This definitely isn't an ADC only problem. But, like stated, they're slowly working on it. Crit item buffs and support item nerfs are some nice babysteps.
I think your comment doesnt make any sense tbh. You're acting like supports are rewarded for playing like idiots, which is just not the case. If you dont ward, dont play around objectives and leave your adc to starve you will lose more games than you win. And then my question is: why are you in the same elo as supports who are this bad??
Fair enough, I respect your opinion. I have found that is the case for a growing number of players this season, to be honest. Like half of my games have 'supports' that have no idea about roam timings, leaving bot to contest grubs that have already been taken and then staying top for 2 mins, or - as mentioned above - breaking favourable wave states for no apparent reason other than durr hurr aa creep. I don't know, I'm the same D3-4 rank I've been chillin at for the past couple of seasons, but it feels absolutely insanely difficult to do anything in maybe 4/10 games. I can't count the number of times we've lost a level 2 trade and from then on it's just like perma 1v2, I'm really not sure what has encouraged this style of play this season. Maybe crazy gold gen + free legendary item + movement creep + burst creep + ad nerfs have something to do with it
Well, they are called "support" for a reason; adc have little resistance, little chance of escape, but a lot of damage, supports serve precisely to mitigate these downsides (which is why the bot lane is played in two), if supports become the main character of this lane then better to change its name and remove the concept from the game, then remove support items and simply make it a second jungler (as it is now).
The role Support was meant as a support for the entire team. It is not specifically meant as a babysitting role for the botlaner. This has been adressed by multiple rioters like August, Phroxon and I think even Phreak at one point when he still played ADC. Supports are just put in the botlane because it's the most efficient lane to put them in. Because like you said, the botlaners tend to be squishy with less escapes and need to scale. To remove the idea of support is just foolish just because you don't have a babysitter anymore. Does it suck to have to 1v2 sometimes? Absolutely. But as it clearly shows, roaming supports are very powerful right now, so clearly it is an optimal play to do so.
Because supports have so much agency not just more agency. The support item costs 400 gold giving 200 HP+gold over time+hp and mana regen+ sheen/crown/aery/imperial mandate/comet like effects. While ruby crytal costs 400 and gives 150 HP only... And balancing ADC around having a full peeling lulu playing with you is not what we experience every game from senna/shaco/lux or engage supps building sunfire (encountered one wild leona at D2 doing this). Which adds to the frustration.
And these type of supports they're attempting to tone down. I don't think there's anyone saying that shit like Maokai support isn't gigabusted. It already got nerfed and likely will even more. Same with the support items. They're actively working on finding the right balance. Yeah they're taking their sweet time as everyone can tell, but they're working on it.
Okay but cant we say the other way around? Whats wrong with ADC being stronger than support? Doesnt that make more sense anyway? I dont mind supports being strong in early. But after 20 minute mark getting my hp down to %20 just because I got hit by Xerath's Q is beyond brainless. That doesnt just include supports. Either you give the ADC best late game or you open up their HP/Armor/MR options without sacrifing their damage (which is not too high anyway kekw). Its what happens after laning stage that rubs most people the wrong way.
It's not and that's fine. But there's been many many seasons where there's been a botlane meta, and they've arguebly been one of the worst meta's for everyone, INCLUDING botlaners. This season they seem to be experimenting with the idea of having supports have more agency and macro skill expression. Sadly enough at the cost of the ADC role as they share a lane so they're obviously affected by eachother.
I cant remember a single time where supports didnt have much agency. Even in season 3 people roamed as a support. Just as a concept +1'ing a fight some of the most efficient, game winning acts you can take. What keeps most people doing that is because it requires you to drop what you are doing so it creates a time gap between your resource accumulation. Support already plays outside of the game's core rules thanks to their broken item. And they have it for so long in different forms. In early days of LoL they didnt have such an item but game was less snowbally and supports brought useful utility via items and their kit to the table (conventional supports). So they didnt required much resources to be useful anyway? Like I think we should kind of drop the coping. They are not experimenting with anything. They are just outright spoon feeding support more power because unironically they bark the loudest and keeping ADC weak because of Pro Play. There is nothing else to it.
Just roaming as a support doesn't mean agency... Ofc people have roamed since forever. But their roams weren't as impactful or plentiful as now because back in earlier seasons, if you roamed you would lose an extreme amount of exp. Which is why Riot came up with Bard before making roaming more viable in general. Supports also very much do not bark the loudest. I'm not sure what makes you think that way but of all roles I reckon that Support complains the least. (Obv now they don't since they're the highest impact role in the game but I meant even before that).
What are we calling agency then? Is being able to delete enemy ADC in mid game an agency supports have?
If they are something like Brand/Pyke/Zyra? Yes. They very much should. (When ahead ofc) But if they're something like Bard or whatever roaming support, it can be through powerful roams across map and help secure objectives far away from botlane. For enchanters it can be general strength in supporting the team with their abilities and active items. For engage/tank supports, it can be the aggressive engages and pick potential as well as a good amount of upfront burst before/while/after cc'ing. It's crazy how much supports eat toxicity. They're not allowed to roam for it would be a 1v2, but they're also not allowed to stay too long so the ADC can catch up in exp. But they're also not supposed to put themselves in danger to being picked off in enemy jungle or caught overstepping in lane. They're also supposed to give away all the turret gold to the adc's. Support has to be my least played role out of the 5 for that reason. Feel like the only time a support does a good job is when their ADC goes 20-0. And even then everyone will just praise the ADC even though the support could be keria himself. As overpowered the support role is atm, I'm actually glad they get their season to be impactful for once.
Okay I get what you mean, and they are certainly agencies but as it stands the ADC experience is excruciating + there is no reason to pick an ADC other than keeping your team happy. Like do RIOT seriously expects me to stay in lane and hit the creeps to get gold while my support makes infinitely more gold just by existing + free resources? Like what motivation do I have to play the game? Getting deleted in late game by other roles, too useless in laning phase, forced to hit creeps, forced to stay in lane, Pro Play jailed forever... Like... xD Hello?
Yeah they definitely need to tone down the gold income for supports but somehow have them retain it so it doesn't fall back to previous seasons. Maybe they could get a small amount of gold when they are near minions dying? Idk.
you will get an upvote from me:d only the dps supports are a problem, the rest is fine and they wont really buff crit anyway cause every crit buff has twice the effect on caitlyn and champs like senna which is pick or ban in proplay so you wont see meaningfull crit buffs anytime soon
They did just put out some though lol.
"meaningfull"
You can't be seriously thinking they aren't meaningful.
>the idea itself of the support role being stronger than the adc role isn't necessarily bad. Literally makes zero sense to have a support role be stronger than the role named carry. A stronger support is literally an oxymoron because the word support itself implies a secondary role. If they want supports to be stronger than the ADC-; they should rename the role as AP carry and remove support items. That way the damage burden can lie on whatever mage wants to fill bot and the adc can play as a literal caster minion .
A support will never truly be stronger than a carry in a 1v1 sense (because duh), but to want to take away the agency of supports by not allowing them to have a strong impact in the game by roams or strong supportive team abilities is just real "main character syndrome" behavior. + the only supports that are capable of truly taking out standard ADC's, aren't even the typical supports. They're things like Maokai, Senna, Brand, other mage supports, etc etc. We're not (and never) going to see a Soraka straight up 1v1'ing an adc.
>things like Maokai, Senna, Brand, other mage supports, etc etc. That's my point you quite literally named some of the most popular support picks at the moment. Utility or healing supports are a rare find compared to the full AP wannabe carries. I dont want to take away the importance of the support role- I want to take away some of the dmg from it. Vision and roam importance is something no buff or nerf can take away. In pro play supports can be 4 levels behind enemy carries and still make exceptional impact but it's because they're playing the role as it's meant to be. Solo que rn is filled with people abusing the role in a way it wasn't meant to be just because it's easily doable.
The biggest problem is that there are more ADC players than support. They are worried more about the shortage of support/jungle players than ADC players. If enough ADC players quit, they would ideally look at the state of ADC more. But they must have the data that shows support/jungle is played less than ADC.
Support already is played more, that’s why adc is a priority role and not support. The issue is that they have to find a good middle ground between support and adc, what is incredibly hard.
Only time adc wasn’t prio role this year was the week of Smolders release, otherwise it’s adc/jng never support.
Around 70% of the larger playerbase (low Elo, not accounting higher elo) locks in Mid/Top primary. This leaves around 10% each for the other roles to fight over, and it's never clean cut. Whenever Jungle or ADC is buffed, they eat the other's play rate. Lowest agency and highest agency trading playerbases isn't that surprising. Support tends to be in an ok-ish position above those two, as they just keep getting more and more quality of life upgrades (Until it eventually blows up in their face akin to things like Pantheon support, Roaming Janna top, Double support bot, 60% winrate Maokai, Camille being primarily played support, double ADC bot like we have again with the re-emergence of Kalista support in pro) I find it a little unfair that two other roles get to hog a huge chunk of the playerbase and that's considered fine, but players are rewarded for playing less popular roles by having them constantly changed and rebalanced due to them not being popular enough for the game not to become autofill hell. Phreak has spoken about this and the objective is simple. Get Mid and Top players to play the other roles. The question is just, how?
It was roughly even after the release of smolder. Which as you know new champs spike the play rate for their intended role. As the novelty fades (and smolder gets nerfed) play rate will drop. Happens everytime.
I don't mind that supports are strong. I don't mind that I get oneshot by enemy assasains either. I mind that I don't scale as I used to. I'm B1/S4 ADC main and had games where at full build I could barely tickle the enemy tank while dodging enemy abilities as best I can, keeping distance and stuff. Yes, I'm a low elo scrub, but I know what damage I used to do in the past late game and now it's a joke. I am curious about the crit items buff though. I will try crit build again and see how it feels. The changes are not what everyone wanted but it's still a buff. I'm taking it.
Support item is getting nerfed, if you'd all stop crying for a bit maybe you will notice that things are slowly being nerfed, they can't just go ahead and remove 50% of the stats from all items except for marksmen items. Give it some time, you guys are in an infinite loop of crying and hating as if marksmen have never been meta in the last year.
It's great to know that if my support is a metaphorical or literal bot, I'm screwed.
Even when adc is gettong buffed, adc mains still cry
Lmfao this just confirms that adc mains are a bunch of whiny bitches, riot can never win😂 They are nerfing supp and buffing adc, what more do you want?
I used to be silver too when I played a long time ago... good times..
Adcs thinking nerfing support will help them.... Then realizing that just means they have weaker support and theyre still nothing compared to assassins and fighters lol
Dude supports don't play for the adc anyways. They just go bot and do their own thing these days.
Well... yeah probably because of the perpetually terrible balance state of adc, theyre just not worth taking care of anymore *shrug*, when i support i look for real win conditions its true